1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,680 Hey listeners, thanks for tuning in to another episode of Pivotal Conversations. 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:09,620 This week we sit down with Jay Schneip, Senior Product Owner of Secure DevOps Platforms at 3 00:00:09,620 --> 00:00:15,300 Liberty Mutual. And what I really learned from this episode was the importance of you can't stand 4 00:00:15,300 --> 00:00:22,280 still. When we talk to Jay, you'll hear again and again how her team has relentlessly focused 5 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:28,280 on reimagining the solutions that they build for developers internally at Liberty Mutual. So enjoy. 6 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:44,120 Okay. All right. So here we are at CF Summit, Philadelphia. I'm with Jay Schneip. Schneip. 7 00:00:44,260 --> 00:00:53,360 Schneip. Okay. From taking German for that one year in college, like the EIs, now it's all squirrely 8 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:59,500 in my head. And if it's not right in front of me, then it's over. Okay. Schneip of Liberty Mutual, 9 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:06,300 who's been on main stage and gave a breakout. So wanted to kind of follow up and just hear more 10 00:01:06,300 --> 00:01:12,360 of the Liberty Mutual story from your side of things, Director of Product for Secure DevOps, 11 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:19,520 which I kind of love that like that's woven right into the role definition. Yeah. What better way to 12 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:24,740 say security is important than to put it in your name? Yeah. Like, no, really, that's what we mean. 13 00:01:24,740 --> 00:01:33,540 Yeah. And I know from, you know, hearing you speak before and our conversations that that is actually 14 00:01:33,540 --> 00:01:41,360 really important to the way Liberty Mutual has kind of built up their platform around PCF. But let's 15 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:48,340 start at the beginning. Sure. So where do things kind of start for Liberty Mutual and then we'll take it 16 00:01:48,340 --> 00:01:56,540 from there. Yeah, sure. So we started our journey in 2013 when we, we being a very small team of maybe 17 00:01:56,540 --> 00:02:04,640 six to eight developers and myself had a need for an easy to use platform. We were building web services 18 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:14,540 and we had the opportunity or the only option, if you will, was to leverage WAS and the WAS deployment and 19 00:02:14,540 --> 00:02:22,260 implementation would take eight weeks per environment. And we were AJ, which meant it was times two and then 20 00:02:22,260 --> 00:02:31,480 per environment, dev test prod. It was a long time and it seemed really heavy for an implementation like 21 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:37,440 ourselves, where we were simply trying to provide web services out to the business units. So we brought 22 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:44,940 Cloud Foundry in and we implemented it. And from the get-go, like you mentioned, security was important. 23 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:53,480 So we immediately abstracted the CLI and we developed a front end where users could start and stop, 24 00:02:54,480 --> 00:03:03,440 connect AIs and applications from that portal. For our team, it was great because we were the only people using it. 25 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:07,120 We could, you know, manage it in a way that there was some 26 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:15,140 limited access in places. As other teams and organizations started to be interested in leveraging it, 27 00:03:15,620 --> 00:03:21,540 we had to put a rollback model around it because we needed that granular layer of security. 28 00:03:22,540 --> 00:03:26,020 Because everything we do, we're really focused on least privilege. 29 00:03:28,740 --> 00:03:36,260 Okay. And so, you know, starting out, talk about the sort of adoption trend in terms of the number 30 00:03:36,260 --> 00:03:43,340 of teams. Like how did that, well, maybe if it's kind of a long time ago now, but, you know, even just 31 00:03:43,340 --> 00:03:48,980 the shape of the curve, right? Like how folks were onboarding starting with the, you know, 32 00:03:50,980 --> 00:03:55,980 roughly under what time span did the pace of the number of teams you had to support in this model 33 00:03:55,980 --> 00:03:56,660 kind of grow? 34 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:02,860 Yeah. It was, I mean, it was certainly slow and steady for a while. Small teams, small organizations 35 00:04:02,860 --> 00:04:09,080 looking for a fit for purpose solution like this. It really wasn't until we signed on with Pivotal 36 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:15,680 that it really started to escalate. And really because we knew a lot better of how we were going to 37 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:23,760 handle the load. So when we first started with Pivotal, we, we also were very opinionated about 38 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:31,100 how you get into Cloud Foundry. So we were asking teams to leverage pipelines, which were still 39 00:04:31,100 --> 00:04:37,460 relatively new from a Liberty Mutual perspective. And teams just didn't know how to get started. 40 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:43,500 So we partnered with Pivotal on that and we did a dojo where three members of the team went down to 41 00:04:43,500 --> 00:04:49,800 Boston for, I think they were there, six to eight weeks and really started to ask the questions, 42 00:04:50,420 --> 00:04:55,800 do the user research, talk to the teams that are interested in Cloud Foundry already, but also 43 00:04:55,800 --> 00:05:01,340 teams that weren't leveraging yet. What was the blocker? Why hadn't you started? And from that 44 00:05:01,340 --> 00:05:07,980 relationship and from that dojo, we built the first real console for starting at cloud, for starting in 45 00:05:07,980 --> 00:05:14,820 Cloud Foundry that we called Pipeline Provisioner. Okay. And what that did is provide you with the 46 00:05:14,820 --> 00:05:20,500 initial starting template to get into Cloud Foundry. It included your build and deploy pipeline. 47 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:29,500 So is this like, there's a set of deployment pipelines that are already kind of pre, pre-cooked, 48 00:05:29,500 --> 00:05:34,660 if you will? The templates are cooked. So each team still needs their own because they're in their 49 00:05:34,660 --> 00:05:40,180 own organization. So we can manage the roles. But yeah, so there's already a pattern there for teams 50 00:05:40,180 --> 00:05:45,080 to consume. So what we did is create those patterns that were easily consumable for teams. Okay. So you 51 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:50,360 kind of get a, yeah, a pattern to start with, and then you have to sort of add in a little bit of 52 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:56,100 the, you know, you add your sprinkles to the sundae, the sundae being the scoop of ice cream and 53 00:05:56,100 --> 00:06:01,760 the essentials, which all, you know, have to include chocolate and cream. Obviously I'm opinionated 54 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:07,920 about that. And the cherry. And the cherry, but you know, whatever. So we digress. Yes. Slight, 55 00:06:07,980 --> 00:06:15,580 slight side topic. Important. Right. But maybe not for today. So anyway, so, okay, this, 56 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:21,320 this console pipeline folks can then log in and, and, and what? They sort of are able to pick kind 57 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:27,460 from a menu of pipelines where you've already baked in the security side of things. So not yet. So they 58 00:06:27,460 --> 00:06:33,420 were able to request a build and deploy pipeline that got you into Cloud Foundry. And we, you know, 59 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:38,060 after we deployed that, after we deliver that, we're high-fiving. We're like, look at what we did. 60 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:46,980 Isn't this amazing? So smart. User research got us here. Like we're awesome. And then teams used it 61 00:06:46,980 --> 00:06:51,540 for about a year. Okay. And then we found it wasn't enough. They wanted all the things. 62 00:06:52,760 --> 00:07:00,300 So what was missing? What was missing? It was really the kind of the ability to go end to end. 63 00:07:00,840 --> 00:07:09,880 So it had some of the things that they needed, but not all of it. It lacked the holistic approach 64 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:17,140 and also provided a disjointed experience. So as teams were leveraging the pipeline provisioner, 65 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:24,620 it didn't tie into DNS and it didn't tie into Liberty Enterprise Identity. So it kind of just 66 00:07:24,620 --> 00:07:32,040 got them started. So then in 2018, well, really the end of 2017, we started to do more research. 67 00:07:32,180 --> 00:07:32,660 Okay. 68 00:07:32,660 --> 00:07:38,880 And we started to say, what thematic problems are developers facing right now that we can start to 69 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:45,020 tackle for them. Like, why are they saying this isn't enough? Okay. And what we found was we needed 70 00:07:45,020 --> 00:07:52,860 to increase the knowledge of our opinions. So why was a pipeline required? You know, what were the 71 00:07:52,860 --> 00:07:59,740 basic principles of consuming cloud and making that available for teams? We needed to even increase 72 00:07:59,740 --> 00:08:06,200 awareness of what options were available. Okay. So it was almost like, wow, we know what we can do, 73 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:10,120 but we weren't doing a really good job communicating to others what was possible. 74 00:08:10,500 --> 00:08:17,280 Okay. Yeah. So that's interesting. And a lot of dimensions, right? This is like, just the notion 75 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:24,180 of kind of revisiting something that was sort of seen as a solved problem. Yes. Um, and you know, 76 00:08:24,180 --> 00:08:32,140 we're not accepting, uh, like the, the kind of the status quo, right? Like that, I think that's a really 77 00:08:32,140 --> 00:08:39,620 healthy approach that, um, embodies what we sort of often talk about in the kind of, you know, 78 00:08:39,680 --> 00:08:44,520 you're building a platform that's a product in some ways, I think maybe offering would be a better 79 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:50,520 term, right? It's, you know, it's more of a service, but again, uh, could digress into the semantics 80 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:55,680 there. Try to avoid that right now. So you're, you're building this offering for your developers 81 00:08:55,680 --> 00:09:03,960 and just like, you know, any, any enterprise for their end users. Yeah. Right. You can't stand 82 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:09,680 still. You can't stand still. You can't wait. You can't assume you've done it all. You know, 83 00:09:09,680 --> 00:09:14,280 and I think what's really, you know, interesting when you think about a platform engineer or someone 84 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:20,220 that's supporting the platform of Pivot Cloud Foundry or supporting even Docker containers or 85 00:09:20,220 --> 00:09:27,220 AWS, you can't be so audacious to think that, you know, what your developers are experiencing 86 00:09:27,220 --> 00:09:33,140 because you have different set of privileges. You have a different set of experiences. You've, 87 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:37,960 you know, probably in most cases been in the platform longer and you don't know anything about 88 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:42,160 the applications that they're trying to deploy. You know, we don't have the, you know, 89 00:09:42,900 --> 00:09:48,320 we're not fortunate enough to be building new, new applications every single day. You know, 90 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,940 we're, we're not doing greenfield work. We're talking about applications that have been, 91 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:57,400 you know, long running applications at Liberty Mutual and we either need to replatform them 92 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:03,740 or refactor them in a way. So they're going to work, you know, in this environment. So we have to ask 93 00:10:03,740 --> 00:10:08,840 the questions, we have to get digged down into what are the blockers? What problems are you trying to 94 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:14,540 solve? What are you experiencing here? So then we can start to figure out what those solutions are. 95 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:22,460 And how much of it is also like, if we think about, you know, maybe that first pipeline provision or 96 00:10:22,460 --> 00:10:30,000 tool, I'm guessing maybe in the 2015-ish? Yeah. Yeah. End of 2016, early 2016. Yeah. 97 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:36,540 Yeah. Okay. So from there to then late 2017, I mean, just like with all things in technology, 98 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:41,380 you can, you can pick whichever timeframe you want, but nonetheless, when you have almost two years go 99 00:10:41,380 --> 00:10:48,040 by, like, you know, the market doesn't stay still in terms of what's available to developers and 100 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:53,880 undoubtedly, you know, the kinds of patterns they're trying to adopt. Did you see any of that 101 00:10:53,880 --> 00:11:00,300 factoring in as well in terms of the demands that those developers had where they were not 102 00:11:00,300 --> 00:11:07,680 being met? Or was it more of just the business side of it is of, you know, in order for me to do my 103 00:11:07,680 --> 00:11:16,040 job, like, forget the technology options that, you know, might now be available to me. At the end of 104 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:23,000 the day, this is, this is just a process issue, uh, that I just want to be better. Yeah. But it just, 105 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:29,920 I'm curious, like, you know, 2016, 2017 was obviously like a lot of stuff was changing in the landscape, 106 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:35,300 you know, Docker, Kubernetes, CICD tools coming out of the, out of the woodwork. Um, 107 00:11:36,060 --> 00:11:41,880 how much of that played in, played into this? I think, I think a lot, but then also maybe not so 108 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:48,680 much. So it was really starting to understand what was blocking people at Liberty. So as we got those 109 00:11:48,680 --> 00:11:53,740 easy, I'll call them the easy applications into Cloud Foundry, the ones that, that fit very well, 110 00:11:53,840 --> 00:12:00,400 they were either already trial 12 factor or, you know, had the majority of the factors, um, and they 111 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:05,680 were ready to go. We started to look at, um, applications that were going to be more difficult. 112 00:12:05,680 --> 00:12:10,440 They weren't going to be easy wins. And the blockers that we started to talk about were 113 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:15,420 identity, right? Again, so, you know, integrating into our enterprise identity solutions, 114 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:21,700 having vanity URLs incorporated into the pipeline itself so that when you do push to production, 115 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:27,640 everything's ready to go. Um, starting to think about secrets management, um, and how we want to 116 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:33,060 manage that from an enterprise perspective. So really that next step for us after pipeline provisioner 117 00:12:33,060 --> 00:12:39,920 was getting all of those things incorporated into a platform and making it consistent. Cause they also 118 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:48,360 came to us and said, we really need, um, to unify what we're doing. It's hard for teams to, to start 119 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:53,240 with a pipeline and then they have to go talk to networking to get, um, you know, what they need 120 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:57,340 from DNS. And then they need to go talk to a completely different organization to get an identity 121 00:12:57,340 --> 00:13:02,440 and then another organization to get a secret and really starting to look at, you know, 122 00:13:02,540 --> 00:13:07,780 liberal liberties, IT organization as a holistic structure and say, we can deliver all of this 123 00:13:07,780 --> 00:13:11,640 for people. Why are we making them go to seven different spots on the way to production? 124 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:19,420 Okay. So then, um, the other, the other thing that you mentioned was around awareness of their 125 00:13:19,420 --> 00:13:26,960 options, um, which, you know, is in my opinion, a different challenge, but also plays into the same notion of 126 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:32,920 you know, this is your, this is your product, this is your offering and, uh, you, you, you need to 127 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:38,940 market it. Right. And the marketing isn't always just like a, a, a pretty brand. Right. Uh, it's, 128 00:13:39,300 --> 00:13:44,900 it's a communication plan. Exactly. So, um, tell, tell us a little bit more about what happened in 129 00:13:44,900 --> 00:13:50,140 terms of changing, changing the awareness challenge. Yeah. So pipeline provisioner was almost primarily 130 00:13:50,140 --> 00:13:56,180 used for cloud foundry, um, which was great, but you know, teams were also starting to look at AWS 131 00:13:56,180 --> 00:13:59,960 at the time. They were starting, you know, to your point, looking at Docker containers, there was a lot 132 00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:06,340 going on at that time. So awareness from the fact of what options did they have available to them 133 00:14:06,340 --> 00:14:13,480 to consume and really starting to believe that the developer or, you know, the organization itself 134 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:18,040 is going to make that decision. And it's not going to be someone like, we can certainly have our 135 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:24,380 opinions and there's always going to be a more appropriate solution for what you're doing, but we 136 00:14:24,380 --> 00:14:29,420 certainly don't need to be the team. It shouldn't be the team telling you which solution solution to 137 00:14:29,420 --> 00:14:35,380 consume. So as we started to pull together what we call the cloud forge console today, it was really about 138 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:41,780 one that end to end experience. So DNS is there and ready to go, you know, identity is there and ready 139 00:14:41,780 --> 00:14:49,220 to go. Secrets is available, but then also, oh, you can do a cloud foundry instance here, or you can 140 00:14:49,220 --> 00:14:55,740 put something out on EC2 in AWS, you know, or do you need a cloud foundry and an S3 bucket for your 141 00:14:55,740 --> 00:15:00,180 storage? Great. Here are, you know, here's the way to go and starting to build those templates 142 00:15:00,180 --> 00:15:05,580 and those end to end pathways to get to production that included not just 143 00:15:05,580 --> 00:15:10,780 the platforms and tools that we manage and support, but the other ones at Liberty Mutual that are 144 00:15:10,780 --> 00:15:17,080 critical to building an application. Okay. Um, so yeah, those deployment targets and some variety 145 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:27,060 there. Now, um, so are you sort of saying that you solve the awareness problem by building it into 146 00:15:27,060 --> 00:15:32,260 kind of the, the console tool itself, um, to sort of surface up these options? 147 00:15:32,260 --> 00:15:37,540 So we've, so we've, so we've, we even hate saying that we've solved anything yet, right? 148 00:15:37,740 --> 00:15:44,040 True. Um, I think we, we improved it greatly, but even just recently within the last three months, 149 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:48,780 we've pulled together now a team that we call university or university plus. 150 00:15:49,460 --> 00:15:54,940 Our next step is to understand where is there missing knowledge? You know, we've been on cloud 151 00:15:54,940 --> 00:16:01,340 foundry for, you know, do the math six years. We still have teams calling us and saying, my AI is 152 00:16:01,340 --> 00:16:08,660 down and we're like all of them. Nope. Just one. Why do you care? You know? Um, and starting, you know, 153 00:16:08,660 --> 00:16:13,240 so there's, there's education there, there's education on which tools to use and when, you know, 154 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:18,620 when I talk about the most appropriate place to deploy something, again, teams are always going to have that 155 00:16:18,620 --> 00:16:23,540 choice, but how do we educate them either from a financial perspective or a security 156 00:16:23,540 --> 00:16:29,100 perspective on, you know, where they should be putting things or again, should is even 157 00:16:29,100 --> 00:16:33,560 probably the wrong word there. Um, you know, what options they have and what makes sense 158 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:38,540 based on what they're trying to deploy. Um, so this, this whole university team is really important to us 159 00:16:38,540 --> 00:16:45,540 because it's one looking for ways to improve that, that end to end product and end to end 160 00:16:45,540 --> 00:16:50,940 services that we provide. But then also starting to understand what it really means when I say 161 00:16:50,940 --> 00:16:56,160 contextually relevant knowledge. Okay. So we're not looking to build a knowledge base. We're not 162 00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:02,460 necessarily looking to put out a bunch of wiki pages, although maybe we start there, but what 163 00:17:02,460 --> 00:17:09,540 experiments can we do as part of that team to say, do videos work? Do podcasts work? How do we, um, 164 00:17:09,540 --> 00:17:15,540 improve help text within the process itself to get people the knowledge that they need when they need 165 00:17:15,540 --> 00:17:25,040 it? Okay. So, uh, tell me a little bit more about this team. And so they're running experiments to 166 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:31,060 sort of figure out how do we get the information into the, to the space between the ears? Um, 167 00:17:31,420 --> 00:17:36,600 you know, how big is the team? What are some of the things that they've tried? You know, 168 00:17:36,700 --> 00:17:40,320 would be, can you share any of the things that have been successful? Just other folks, 169 00:17:40,380 --> 00:17:44,660 I'm sure are facing the same challenge. Yeah. I think developer enablement is a really important 170 00:17:44,660 --> 00:17:49,880 topic. So I'm always curious of like little nuggets that people can share. Yeah. And I really 171 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:55,860 do wish I had more like literally the team is probably, um, maybe three months old. We just got a 172 00:17:55,860 --> 00:18:00,880 product owner within the last month and a half. Um, but the, and the team is very small, you know, 173 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:06,900 starting small, let's experiment, let's see what happens. And right now, um, they're in aligned and 174 00:18:06,900 --> 00:18:12,220 embedded with our support services team. So our customer success teams, you know, they have so 175 00:18:12,220 --> 00:18:19,500 many questions, so many people call in and it's for more than just something's broken. It's how do I do 176 00:18:19,500 --> 00:18:24,680 this? How do I do that? Um, you know, one example of something they're going after right now is when 177 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:32,440 you look at our JIRA, um, implementation, there's 20,000 users in JIRA. We only have 5,000 Liberty 178 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:41,180 IT employees, which means there's over 15,000 non-technical users consuming that product. And so 179 00:18:41,180 --> 00:18:49,380 when you think about what it means to create an LDAP group, role-based access management, um, even 180 00:18:49,380 --> 00:18:55,860 identifying identities within the platform and understanding, you know, who goes where, 181 00:18:57,140 --> 00:19:01,320 that's something they've never experienced before. So how do we improve that experience for 182 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:06,540 them? You know, and then you layer on top of it, all of the request mechanisms that Liberty has on, 183 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:12,260 you know, you need to use these different services to request, you know, an LDAP group in development, 184 00:19:12,460 --> 00:19:16,320 then you have to do it in non-prod, then you have to do it in prod. And that whole process can be so 185 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:22,000 overwhelming for a business user who's simply wanting to manage their work in JIRA. Yeah. Or 186 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:26,920 they've partnered with an IT team and they need to, you know, set that up. So, so looking for, for 187 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:34,020 nuggets like that, using data to drive which small wins we go after first. Um, so some videos had been 188 00:19:34,020 --> 00:19:41,180 done a couple of years ago, um, on helping teams with JIRA. We don't know if they're being used. So 189 00:19:41,180 --> 00:19:46,560 we're, you know, start, what, what do we have? What else can we try? Um, you know, and then just 190 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:52,200 continuing to iterate from there, you know, what other small wins can we have, you know, that come from 191 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:58,300 the customer success teams to say either, you know, is, is success here eliminating calls? 192 00:19:59,060 --> 00:20:06,760 Is success here, you know, improving the customer experience? Is success here keeping calls, but, 193 00:20:06,940 --> 00:20:11,860 but doing a like one call and done kind of perspective. So we have the documentation, 194 00:20:11,860 --> 00:20:17,080 so it can be a quick send off, you know, and then what kind of level of service are we really trying 195 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:22,220 to provide here? Um, and you know, so there's a lot of questions, a lot of things to be answered, 196 00:20:22,220 --> 00:20:29,160 but it's really exciting to think about, you know, how do we get that contextually relevant 197 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:34,700 knowledge to the right person at the right time? Yeah. Okay. Well, this seems like a good topic to 198 00:20:34,700 --> 00:20:42,040 definitely follow up with you or someone on that team, um, in the future. Uh, cause I'm super curious. 199 00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:47,940 There's a lot of really great questions that you guys are clearly looking at. Um, and so I'm just 200 00:20:47,940 --> 00:20:53,360 curious as some of those answers perhaps start to emerge. Um, maybe someone will have something to 201 00:20:53,360 --> 00:21:02,000 say about it at SpringOne. Oh gosh, what an interesting setup, Jay. Um, uh, who knows? We'll, 202 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:07,640 we'll see if the agenda is published, uh, how long after this podcast is published, but, um, 203 00:21:08,020 --> 00:21:14,260 okay. So just to kind of wrap things up, um, you know, one thing you mentioned on the main stage, 204 00:21:14,660 --> 00:21:21,300 uh, when asked, uh, you know, Hey, you know, fast forward five years, um, you know, do you, 205 00:21:21,300 --> 00:21:24,840 you imagine you're still going to be using cloud foundry? You, you had, you were pretty confident 206 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:31,280 in your, in your yes answer. Um, a little, little tweak on that question is, you know, fast forward, 207 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:37,780 even just two years, like, what do you want to see that your team has gotten done? Yeah. 208 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:43,960 No, that's a good question. Um, I will, first of all, I want to see us out of the data centers 209 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:50,740 with our PCF implementation. Um, we're working on that now. Um, we want teams to be running PCF 210 00:21:50,740 --> 00:21:57,080 and AWS. We want to, we want them to be running on that platform. Um, I'd love to see us be able 211 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:02,320 to abstract some of the, the Liberty specific items we've had to put in place, like, you know, 212 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:08,740 the abstraction of the CLI, you know, and have that role-based access control to a really granular 213 00:22:08,740 --> 00:22:13,340 level. And maybe there aren't other organizations that need that. So understandably, maybe it never 214 00:22:13,340 --> 00:22:19,200 comes into the open source space. Um, but I would love to, to see that and give, you know, teams a 215 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:24,780 little bit more access to, um, really some of the real power within the platform itself. 216 00:22:24,940 --> 00:22:31,120 So see some of the abstraction kind of actually fade away away. Okay. And then also to follow 217 00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:37,220 up on the, on the point about you're already in the process of moving to AWS. Um, so is 218 00:22:37,220 --> 00:22:44,320 that something that, what lessons do you have already from having, you started with PCF completely 219 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:53,380 on-premises now you've, you've already started to run it in AWS. Any kind of lessons bubble up to the 220 00:22:53,380 --> 00:22:58,840 surface from you in terms of making that transition? I would say, just don't get behind. 221 00:22:59,920 --> 00:23:07,320 Don't get behind on your revs and, and re-platforming that or the, um, repaving that can be tough. Um, 222 00:23:07,940 --> 00:23:15,260 and, and we're really working hard to keep both instances, um, at least today in full parity. 223 00:23:15,700 --> 00:23:20,580 Yeah. Um, but I think, you know, we may, we may need to make a decision sooner than later that 224 00:23:20,580 --> 00:23:25,880 sure you can stay running internally, but you're not going to get, you know, what you can get out 225 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:33,320 in the cloud, um, and start to just, you know, invest less in that space. Yeah. Okay. Um, 226 00:23:33,900 --> 00:23:39,520 okay. Well, thank you so much for joining us and, uh, yeah, look forward to seeing what, uh, 227 00:23:39,620 --> 00:23:45,360 what Liberty Mutual brings to Springland platform as well. Me too. All right. Thanks. Thank you.