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so the question of the day is why is platform as a product or maybe platform as product and

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you can drop the article why is that important so um to introduce our guest dr nick uh stark

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and wayne actually there's a big practice around uh helping folks get um pcf installed up and running

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but as part of that journey uh the kind of change in the mindset towards hey this isn't just like

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another piece of infrastructure software that you install and run it's it's sort of a new way of

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living if you will um correct me if i'm wrong that's kind of become a big part of your practices

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as well so stark and wayne is a consultancy around uh pivotal cloud foundry we came into existence

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at the same time pivotal came into existence and the mission was was aligned such that for the last

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five six years you know we've sort of gone to market together helping our customers what we all know is

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that running you know your platform whether it's the pivotal applications service um there's or whether

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it's the pks whatever the whole aim is to rechange their internal customer mindset you know to they're

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not just running microsoft active directory and you use it right you're there to run an entire experience

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for your developers your production team you know you're there to be the the first and last place that

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they come looking for an experience now most of that experience is part of like the cli or the dashboard

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or you know now the other part might be asking for support but more and more of you know what we've

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tried to do over the last half decade has been to make operations make life cycle make everything

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about their production apps being successful you know productized experience okay tell us a little bit

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about the before state when you go in to work with a customer um what are they what are they coming from

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day one the customer is never thinking about awesome we're gonna have a platform it's gonna be a product

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this is the best thing you know they've got some terrible pain that they've lived through it for

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the last two decades the complaints around applications not shipping you know they'll spend

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weeks and tens of weeks on an application and they still haven't gotten around to putting it on

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infrastructure or whether even if they're modern day where they're perhaps using modern legacy things

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like you know going straight to amazon or you know or straight to azure on low-level bear machines they've

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still got that all that work to do and it's they look at it as work they're not looking at as an

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experience that they can rely on that their organization is providing them you know it's a battle it's a

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battle between the engineering team who think they just get to write application code and move on and and

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some IT team who think they're going to receive this football over the fence they have to go and put in production

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it's it's it's it's it's trying to say that look there's a line this platform is a line and you the

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engineering organization and now not just responsible running code but you get to enjoy the responsibility

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for your applications being successful in production okay yeah that was interesting how you

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you said enjoy the responsibility it's yeah look some people um look my history before

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four stock and wayne as i wrote would be on rails web applications and uh i like to joke now that

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when you start a new rails application and perhaps the same joke if you said for the spring applications

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you know spring boot bootstrap you you know you get all your scaffold i think it should come with a

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big yellow warning at the end that says warning you are about to create a production application

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do you wish to proceed like how fast we can make new applications can sometimes

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confuse that you've now got a decade's worth of love and attention to give this thing as it is a i'll be a

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computerized living breathing thing um now i think now my honest belief is you run your you know you put

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your application code on a platform most of the the sweat and tears of keeping that you know it does go away

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um in part because of that experience the cf push you know from a cloud foundry platform perspective

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you know it's a cf push experience um but also it's the constraints if you can guide

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the developers and say here are some good constraints we're just going to use my sequel

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we're just going to use rabbit mq we're not going to pick the coolest thing you've just found out

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about on you know youtube this morning or twitter this morning we're going to stick to this because

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if we if we stick to these these well-known well-operated constraints then you will have a productized

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platform that you can you know live with you won't have to keep asking for favors you won't have to keep

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finding your favorite it person to set a machine up to turn on mongo or you know whatever um and you

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can have that that clear line in the sand where it's you sit above this and you will have a good

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experience if you're below it then you'll you know um you're asking for bespoke things that

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are untested and they're going to lead off and you now have to look after a bespoke system your code

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is not the only thing that is yours yeah and this is i think so you know the topic is platform as a

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product it's it's by if if a developer can just accept that and not ask but why can't i just do

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bare metal why can't i just do bare amazon why can't i do bare kubernetes if they can accept that they

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will have a pleasant life for the next three decades as an engineer the moment they want to take that step

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down and say but i i want to run you know uh mongo i want to run seven different things or i you know

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we need this um they better understand that they they're no longer just about the code they've got an

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entire breathing system their code plus their other code plus all this the versions plus the the every

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version of kubernetes or every version of you know the underlying packages everything that changes is a

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change to their application yeah either they accept responsibility for that or they they sit on a

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beautiful line on a platform i feel like there's an analogy here um forgive me i'm prone to these

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but i feel like there's a little bit of an analogy with you know trying to get these developers to kind

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think out you know for the next decade of this code that they're about to push into production

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think about the next decade three decades of their life and how much time do they want to be spending

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uh patching and updating and waiting for uh tickets to go back and forth versus you know if you accept

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that you know you know you could if you live within a few constraints you can live with it the analogy i'm

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thinking of here is like saving for retirement right absolutely that's a good one so you know if you could

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get these young people right with their first job be like yeah i know you want to go spend that money on

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you know uh fancy cars or you know trendy clothes or just drinking money i don't know but if you just set

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aside five percent of your paycheck like you're going to be in a way better position in 30 years

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so so so you think that if if some people get it but if we can teach people about compound interest

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and saving then then we can teach people about platforms i hope not i say that because so few

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people are good at it i know i know i hope that's not the metaphor i hope that's where the analogy breaks

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down and it's easier but that was gonna be my question how do you get how do you convince

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developers that hey this is the best for you do you have to let them sometimes

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make mistakes and then this is the best approach yeah i so firstly let's for anyone that that is

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asking questions should i be saving for retirement oh my god you should be saving for retirement right

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this is we're now going to cut over to the personal finance section of this podcast that was a

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little psa from us to you start saving you haven't already vanguard s p 500 fund please please do that

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yeah um now back to you know the how do you convince the developers right how do you get them

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you know do you have to educate them on compound interest or is there some other way i guess it's

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the technical debt right yeah this is the uh and how that compounds it's the reason that we use the

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for debt and the phrase technical debt is the interest and the compounding interest um that the

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organization you know your friends your peers the people that perhaps you haven't met yet are going to be paying

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um and this is where it becomes the organization's partly responsibility to to make it easier to use

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the platform than not to because then their staff will have that good behavior without it being a major

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choice and which is like uh perhaps we go back to the personal savings um having money automatically

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taken out into your 401k or in australia we call it superannuation you make it easier to save than not

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to right so you're not going to have that battle on a on a monthly basis totally yeah i know it's like

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where hey when you sign up for direct deposit right right and what's the what are some of the

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organizational equivalents that you've seen work to do that because this this question just came up for

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me the other day of you know i need to make getting things on the platform the path of least resistance

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right was absolutely and so what have you seen work for that what works so i mean a lot a lot of things

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like cloud foundry make once you've got cloud foundry and you've used it you know it's very hard to

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argue that you go somewhere else today even like i i was deploying things to pws the pivotal web services

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you know you'll run dot pivotal.io yeah we're stuck and wayne many of our little apps public apps our blog

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our website all going on to that and so you know um we're trying to upgrade an app there and at no

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point do you ever think well i'll just go and boot up a kubernetes cluster that's probably more fun

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you know if you're thinking that you've got too many others you know you don't have enough work to do

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um but when it comes to an organization making them aware that this experience exists that it's pleasant

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that and learning uh there are things you can do you can i mean you can market internally so often

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a platform as a product needs an owner and so where it's successful is where there is at least one

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human being who owns the emotional responsibility for this being successful they are going to sell this

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thing now they may have a team they may get people to all the things you would do if you were an external

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business you would want referrals you'd want to get teams that can show success and get testimonials

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and get them to talk to other teams if you're lucky you might get top down you know you know we've

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certainly had customers where it's been all top down right cgo comes in and says it's all going to be

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on um pivotal cloud foundry and all of you know all the teams throw away their previous deployment

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patterns right um not too begrudgingly often uh and move to to pdf um but if you are an owner and

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you've still got a sort of battle for acceptance then then think about it as an owner think about

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it as i'm going to do sales and marketing i've got to you know you may not have to actually sell

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anything but you may need to get them to go through trials hack days um demonstrate the engineers and

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their leaders that it's not just a pleasant day one experience but your applications are going to have

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a pleasant you know experience the next decade or so yeah is there a way to identify that product owner

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in your experience have you seen kind of anything that helps surface like ah that person they get

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it and they have kind of i think of it as almost like the entrepreneurial spirit to sort of see that

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person you kind of hope that person i would hope that person was discovered in selecting the need

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for a platform i mean if if if if if a platform pcf is going to be installed without an owner then i i

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it's just going to be a piece of infrastructure like you know i mean we've perhaps all heard of

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stories where it goes off and buys a big subscription or something uh it doesn't get installed doesn't get

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run it's called shelfware and shelfware and so uh yeah how do you find that person that that would be i i

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think a really important part of of the onboarding of a platform is this if if the people who are the

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most excited are not also going to take responsibility for its ongoing success either they need to find

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that person they are all going to look silly and this is any time you evangelize and want to bring

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something into your organization what are you going to do to make sure it has long-term success that

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everyone five years from now is talking positively about you and your life choices um and and and

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that's going to mean that you as the evangelist bringing this this in uh either need to be that

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person or you need to be finding that person who is going to you know wants to have that an important

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career opportunity to to make something successful in their organization and then you perhaps as the

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evangelist need to take the job of or as a senior you know cto or senior person to to to push everything

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out of the way and to you know get people to pay attention to you um yeah i've heard of customers

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actually branding pcf internally giving it a name which builds good product loyalty in terms of the

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product team but it's also makes it easier to market that and you can code it anything you want and as

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you can theme uh again pcf or not but definitely the pcf console can all be themed the login page can be

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themed you can integrate it in with your own active directory so everyone's automatically got accounts

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um and uh yeah whatever it takes for you and the team to to have realized that this is a huge win

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a huge win and look it's 2019 um there is so much material now for those for that product owner to

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to take and to use and to turn around um but yeah i mean that's that's certainly something

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pivotal perhaps could help is help product owners these these people that own platform as a product

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to meet each other and find out um and i guess SpringOne is an example of where they can find other

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product owners the cf summits um uh pivotal days these are hopefully places that they can find other

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product owners and perhaps swap ideas on how to be successful share notes because they're completely

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independent right you're just trying to help your organization have success and swap ideas of what

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works yeah it's a bit lonely right because it's not like hey developers where you know there's maybe

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not an army of us but there's there's going to be teams and teams um but when you get down to the

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platform operators it's already a small team and then everyone was already doing something there who's

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really the owner is like probably the only owner at the company hence the name owner um and so they're

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it's a it's a bit of a lonely path that they've got to kind of afford but what about

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what about things that you've seen that are kind of like seem to be missteps or um you know

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uh just just potholes that people can hit well let's start with the first one the first one is not having

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at least one product owner right let's you know it's going nowhere um who's going to be the one

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that that keeps getting groups to come in and and either to put new projects on it who's going to be

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the one that that puts uh that does the the app transformation because if applications haven't been on

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on on on on a platform uh and again we'll take pcf as an example there are those constraints

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um not all apps are going to just drop in so it's not just an it job of saying all right let's move things

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off our v sphere vms and just drop them into this right there might be one or two changes

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and uh and you might want to set up ci i mean there's if i can take a new path on this topic

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right it's not just there is owning and operating an application the platform is a is an important

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starting point even with the platform there are still things that change that break your application

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or are going to leave your application behind the biggest one at the moment is uh we take pcf for

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example is we're dropping support for uh the trustee ubuntu trustee based applications um it's internally

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referred to as cf linux fs2 which who knows where that name came from let's not overthink that but the

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new one's called fs3 so that's exciting um but at a linux ubuntu level it was a bunty ubuntu trustee

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versus a bunty zennial and uh and we're not going to support both for very long and so um most pcf

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environments will have had a short window where applications could have been deployed on both but

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they need to redeploy them to support right so inside these accounts this product owner then has to be

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worried about this deliver this message and help shepherd shepherd them and and some projects some

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applications do lose their primary application team they kind of go into maintenance mode yeah that will

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happen and that is not just to be ignored because someone's going to need to keep a track of and it's

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not just that we went from trustee to to zennial that might not change anything because the build packs

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keep upgrading but certainly one of the projects that we work on uh we use ghost which is a node.js

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blogging thing in order to make it work we needed to get the mysql shell cli in there to do a little

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bit bumping of some things on startup well that didn't just nicely upgrade from trustee so there

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are these very sometimes little edge cases and if it's not at the environment level it might just be

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that you're using spring and all the different libraries that you use and they're going you can't

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just not keep upgrading them so even though the platform has its level where you know you don't need

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to worry about the upgrading of the life cycle of platform or kubernetes or you know of v-sphere

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or the machines underneath or wherever the entire stack is whilst you don't have to worry about that

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your application is still filled with these things that need upgrading so this is where

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an application needs ci needs to have this way for the product owner to be able to you know find out

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where the versions of applications keep working and um and so you know in our pivotal universe we have

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concourse but people like jenkins whatever it is that part becomes as important because it allows

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you to reproduce deployment for a new version check that it works um and perhaps then escalate to hey we

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didn't you know this this this application that doesn't have a development team anymore ah we need one

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temporarily please in the next three months yeah i mean and so if you have tests and other parts of

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the path to production you know developed and automated someone else could come in absolutely

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and at least figure out listen we we're gonna need to make a few changes because something's going out

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of support yeah if you care about and there's a pipeline if you care about upgrades and you care about

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security and you can't care about security and not care about upgrades um you just follow the logic

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through these applications never get to be passive so even though you think your dev team's finished its

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work and it's moved off to make other apps the application goes on forever you can't just orphan

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these children um and now it doesn't mean you need full-time teams but you you as a you as the application

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owner and hence also the platform owner need to go about planning for you know cf push might not be the

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only thing they should be doing it's all the life cycle around the app for the next decade to make

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sure it's always latest version is being tested of everything otherwise it just falls further and further

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behind uh and then one day you just cannot upgrade it anymore yeah and you live with that security so

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like and that's if you care about security and who cares about that maybe you don't yeah it's just

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it's it's a nuanced the platform does a lot but the application owners have still some responsibility

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for next decade just the platform makes it a lot easier and a lot more obvious so what's interesting is

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like it seems like you're drawing the circle around the scope for the platform team tell me if i'm wrong

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the circle is like okay you've got you've got cloud foundry maybe at sort of the the heart of it

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right it's kind of a a big chunk of the um automation kind of sitting there on top of all the underlying

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infrastructure but as a platform owner your your circle is actually much bigger than that and it's

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including the the path to getting on right it's not going to be a cf push it's probably going to be

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through a cic oh yeah look if um if if you as the owner are going to own the platform and all the

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applications sit on it for the next two decades if not use someone else just think of that right and

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hopefully hopefully come back quickly to to your question then you will have first one app and then

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many apps who start to look suspiciously like they're falling behind and the people that worked on them

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disappear and uh and and and and if you go about trying to fix that later on it's going to be on

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your budget uh because you've got apps that you know need touching fixing cleaning up whatever um you

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know i think the benefit of being the platform owner and is that your product has a very clear line of a

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circle or box around it and i think if you know that that box in advance you can be clear hopefully

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hopefully i'm being clear you can be clear about the responsibilities of your customers

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these responsibilities don't disappear if you don't use a platform

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i think what happens is your life is so convoluted and complex you just never have clear thoughts about

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these topics wait okay say that again so it's not that these lines don't exist without a platform it's

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just that nobody's paid attention to no one's taking the trouble to draw them anyway no it when everything

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else is so busy you know um there are certain problem spaces that you just hope never turn up

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okay um re-ability to build machines we go back a few years we were all getting very excited with

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chef and bosch and things like that our ability to rebuild machines that allowed us to not fear

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about machines disappearing whereas before people used to celebrate this machine has been up for six

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years right oh my lord yeah no idea how to rebuild this in the event of of a disaster or the need to

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rebuild this machine yeah all that because you've celebrated the wrong thing you've lost the knowledge

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and the tooling of how to rebuild it and so uh the people who got that job had so much work to do

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rebuilding environments uh they did it manually and hence we all got very excited by chef and then got

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excited by bosch docker and and kubernetes because it's each time that we got more automation

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we realized we needed to toughen our muscles and toughen our tools and toughen our approach

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to our profession so that could be reproducible and it could be upgradable and it could be

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continuously secure and it's one thing i was not when we started you know with cloud foundry and

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pivotal five six years ago the security story wasn't the primary story but it very quickly became

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you know almost like the thing we were awesomely good at you know our ability to update stem cells

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which are the base images you know the what an amazon machine for example ami our ability to update build

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packs our ability to update the the the stacks you know the the of where the containers run um it became

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this calling card the ability to run pks which is you know uh on-demand kubernetes when people start to

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realize that one kubernetes was not the right model you can't just share one kubernetes across a huge

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organization you need to have lots of them you better have a tool for you know looking after all of those right um yes the

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operational yeah so i think this era has been here where uh those of us who get to stand on sufficient

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amount of orchestration can see that it's allowed us to start solving on a consistent basis you know the

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the security issues which the news will tell us um any newspaper that hasn't got donald trump on the

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front probably has some it hack uh from your favorite brand and so you know this this story is sort of

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becoming as as public and a major newspaper issue is as it is our space to solve yeah and and not to

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get too political but sometimes donald trump and the hacking go hand in hand oh look at that that's a

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whole nother story just spelled it right out there jeff yeah sorry i couldn't resist so i wanted to ask

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quickly transitioning i wanted to ask about this concept of so if you're a product owner that means

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you have customers your customers being the developers and we talk a lot about here listening

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to your customers and incorporating their feedback into your product development does that apply to what

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we're talking about here treating pcf or a platform as a product how do you think about incorporating

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the developer feedback what they want yeah that's a really good question um because you know if you're the

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product owner of something you didn't necessarily build you know you you know if you sort of saying

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you're a french if you're a mcdonald's franchise owner franchisee owner like and you get feedback

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it's like there's only so many things i can change but thanks for the feedback right um that is a really

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interesting you know paradigm of where you participate in that um and fortunately i mean not that you can

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necessarily change things immediately because it's a pre-existing environment there are certain things

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you can do on the outside like you can help with the ci you can give them feedback of of how to go about

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doing ci which isn't necessarily part of the platform but hopefully it's either been a problem solved by

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teams other teams at your organization or other teams outside and again i i would have to you know perhaps

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we should put together a big long list of of SpringOne talks about you know applications and ci and

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looking after them and keeping them upgraded to help feed that information back about you know

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um but hopefully yeah i mean if not that topic then hopefully any topic they get there is information

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where that question has been asked to another product owner that product owner has answered it gone to a

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conference and talked about it hopefully we have a good background of you know this is the

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you know the awesome part about the you know cloud foundry platform experiences it's not shiny and new

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like you're you're running something that others have been running for half a decade you know

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successfully so um so it might be that you know you're going to bring them you know information from

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somewhere else it might be that you're going to take that um help them you know perhaps build a layer

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outside our new service broker like say they want a new service and you go okay we can do that we've

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already got oracle on the inside um it doesn't look like we're ever going to get away from it so let's

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bring a service broker in so that you know you can continue to use it uh so that's for anyone that's

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know a service broker it's part of the plug and play nature of pcf it allows you to bring in external

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pre-existing services make them nicely available in a way that they've never been nicely available before

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and this is something just because i think a lot of folks often think about um at least in in the

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the pivotal universe of cloud foundry they'll think of the service brokers that we have in our uh service

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pcf services marketplace that are available on say the pivotal network for download and those are the

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ones that are you know we've worked with a bunch of third-party um software vendors you know monitoring

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tools security tools databases what have you there they've built it and so it's a supported service broker

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but but you're kind of suggesting like part of what you are part of what you're doing as a platform

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owner is actually writing your own service broker it's not integrating i'm going to download it like

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those are great environment there might be something that is someone one of my customers needs it might

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be a networking change you know it might not again it might not be yours to change but yours to

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take responsibility for it make sure your environment has access to this uh special subsystem inside

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your company and there are more and more ways in which this can be done um not necessarily can

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you perhaps easily do it it might take some thinking through but like isolating a portion of your pcf

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environment uh which only then has access to perhaps a sub you know a certain virtual network

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um it might be yeah integrate it might be installing a new tile so it might be they've found out that

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hey there's a hundred tiles uh different you know tiles that they can download and say can you please

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install this one we don't like please like we'd like to be able to test it yeah um it might be um

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you know asking for help about how this the java build pack works it might even just be asking how java

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works and you have to explain there's a java build pack let me explain how this works right well doesn't

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this relate to the beginning of our conversation when you talked about you know providing a consistent

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environment um you know this is what we're going to use we're going to use you know my sql we're not

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going to use all these other databases but then you have all these options that something like pcf gives

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you so how do you kind of balance the we want to keep this clean consistent environment with

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we want to be responsive to our customers developers and their needs and requests it sounds it sounds

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like it's a little bit of a balancing act it is and as the product owner you might have a team

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that runs the platform for you you might have someone like stark and wayne who do it as a managed

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service uh sort of rent a rent a crowd so we will run the platform for you and we'll you know give you

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the you know that you say hey can we try this tile app we'll install it for you we'll set that and so

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we don't you know we we do what we you know we preach what we uh practice what we preach so we'll

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set up a pipeline on how this tile gets installed so that new versions get upgraded so that we can look

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after it setting up backups um this is where i you know earlier on with our finance uh little segue

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this is where i go on my you know disaster recovery segue it's like if your database tile is installed and

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you don't know how to do disaster recovery it's just a cache like you as the platform of owner are

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responsible everyone else assumes you're responsible for making sure all their data is restorable in the

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event of disaster high availability is nice too but my goodness you better not with a straight face say

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you've got a platform as a product unless you know how to do disaster recovery yeah so you know this is

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not necessarily where you go out and sort of say hey you know okay san francisco i'm currently in san

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francisco uh with mine and uh yeah coming to you live coming to you live yeah obviously it's actually

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but one of the things that san francisco fire department loves to do is to drive around really

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noisily just to let you know they're out and about being a fire department um and uh so similarly you you

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would need to uh and you just trust that the fire department when they're not doing that is practicing

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putting out fires or picking up sick people i think they do a lot of that too yeah um similarly you as

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a product owner need to toot your own horn and your product platform's horn about what it can do

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make sure people know because it's otherwise invisible infrastructure but you better know how to run your

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platform uh when things go bad yeah so make sure any tile you do want and this is why i say let's

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constrict ourselves to a subset don't you can expand it but make sure you know how to do disaster recovery

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make sure you know how you're gonna upgrade it um yeah this is what we focus on as stark and wayne is

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running platform running the tiles and so um it is kind of fun to sort of yell about it as if it's

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not my problem but this is you know what we care about a lot well and there's like to to jeff's point

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where it's like you're you're providing constraints but then you know you do have this element of

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optionality i think i think josh mckenty actually had a uh a fun story about this about um picking from

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the middle of the book in terms of the gear size right so not having too fine not having too wide

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so picking there's like this nobody knows the number but there's you want to provide some options

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but you want to constrain them so you need some guardrails but you you can't you can't literally

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take someone down to like thou shalt use my sql and that is the only data store that you will use like

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that's going to be a little bit crazy but the point is i'm going to provide you with a short list

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right and you're going to be able to do everything you need to do within this range of options right

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at least now it's a conversation but we're not talking about literally everything in the no

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universe that you can go out and try and do and then someone has to support it so this is perhaps

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one of the benefits is is that conversation is forced and state databases state is super important

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to have this conversation if if you just give your end users kubernetes we just give them open stack

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we just give them amazon accounts and let them have fun they will install databases all by themselves

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and they will think their job is done they go look my app works i'm out of here have a good weekend

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uh and they will not have set up backups they will not set up disaster recovery platforms they will not

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have a run book of what to do in the event of something terrible they will not know how to go back to

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an old version of your data they will have just satisfied themselves that their app works

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so part of part of the the benefit of a platform to the entire organization is a nice experience to

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the end user whilst you're still capturing responsibility and so the ownership of each of

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those data tiles might be separated into different teams it might be all the product owners but it

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is still a known responsibility and so stateless apps have fun on the platform stateful things oh my god

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please work with your product owner to make sure they're well looked after um it's okay to want to

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use kafka that sounds like a great idea let's do it together on behalf of your product owner let's do it

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together so that you have a good capture experience where we have already organized support from uh confluent

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in this case who probably you know maintain kafka or any of nines or someone else who's got a tile for

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you know kafka uh you know it's a conversation and yes product owners should should accept those

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conversations otherwise he will get shadow it and he will get people just going off and doing it

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themselves yeah okay so so clearly having a product owner is important i think we just spent like 15

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minutes on that are there one other no that's i i well i is there are there any other assuming you

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already have that then what else yeah what else what else can go wrong

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what else can go wrong right if or even if you're just talking

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on yeah and i've probably spent a bunch of time talking about this so if you want things to go wrong like

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you're down the road your abandoned apps will have problems and but if you don't know that then you

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won't think about it in advance so i i do apologize perhaps for spending time so okay you've got your new

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customer your new engineering team they have been told there's this

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platform it's got its own cool name um what can go wrong is they might have had expectations about

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how deployment works from something else they read right they and this is something new to learn

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now it's pretty easy to learn but but if you don't actually let them learn if you just sort of throw

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it at them then then they're going to perhaps react in a negative way and all of a sudden they talk and

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they get angry and and engineers like to escalate their problems and so we both don't treat them well but

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also we over over nurture them um i love engineers i'm an engineer i just i'm concerned about my

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profession and um so you know whether it's you know a hackathon is an idea just nurturing them through

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until they have success and then hoping that you know help them teach everyone else um but you the

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product owner may may need to capture a lot of information about how their java app will be deployed

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or how to quickly get them that answer so in that early period often we do uh application dojos

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so you know they really want to take advantage of those initial application dojos they do with

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with you know the pivots um because you're going to learn about how to write apps the pivotal way but

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also very importantly about how to work with cloud foundry both both as a human being cf pushing but

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also starting to set up ci i personally so whose responsibility is it to set up ci by the way

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this is my personal yeah is it the app yeah it's not even my personal belief it is mathematically

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proven if you can care about security updates of your application for the rest of its life

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then you need a ci and so but that doesn't answer the question of who who is setting it up

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because yeah just to some extent you could say well the platform team seems to be accepting a lot of

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responsibility you know i i don't think it's certainly it's not the pdf platform the police platform

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the apple doesn't take doesn't say here is ci so uh and it is kind of like saying hey everyone has to

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use java that's kind of a step too far perhaps in the relationship and certainly not something that

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pcf as a platform enforces um some companies do love their favorite ci there are a lot of them

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and i think to sort of force an organization to use one versus the other might be a step too far

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but here's a nuance to ci i i like to call ci a little robot a stack away and i think we ended up

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like we had like 90 something little pipelines that did various things often some of them were benign

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they would take a package they take a a new github release from a project that wasn't ours would build

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it and turn it into an asset so we have a um a debian repository uh at apt.starker1.com and it's full of

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of things that aren't even ours it's a lot of our stuff but a lot of other people's stuff because

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they just weren't publishing debian packages so we have a lot of pipelines that do this um

383
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and uh so i i know what it's like to look after pipelines but i know very clearly

384
00:39:06,260 --> 00:39:14,820
that these pipelines run my business so they're not benign they are important business logic and so

385
00:39:14,820 --> 00:39:21,140
when you choose your ci system please know that if if if your important business logic is not going

386
00:39:21,140 --> 00:39:27,300
into a git commit and it's not being tracked and you perhaps go even further go even further

387
00:39:27,300 --> 00:39:34,340
do you know how to test your pipeline in a in a safe place that is non-trivial ci is often

388
00:39:34,340 --> 00:39:39,460
like shell scripts it's very uh destructive like it's doing something and it's very hard to set

389
00:39:39,460 --> 00:39:46,820
up a safe way to test that um so you know there is a lot there is a lot you know just like the the

390
00:39:46,820 --> 00:39:51,700
idea we were talking about earlier about the importance of always upgrading because you always want to be

391
00:39:51,700 --> 00:39:56,180
safe and secure and just security as a first-class thought is easier now that you have platforms

392
00:39:57,220 --> 00:40:02,820
i hope in my heart that people start taking ci seriously and it's not just like as a it's like code

393
00:40:03,540 --> 00:40:08,580
and if it's like code how do you test it how do you update it how do you because the moment you

394
00:40:08,580 --> 00:40:14,820
touch ci it changes everything and maybe it does something disastrous and you go well that was

395
00:40:14,820 --> 00:40:21,700
unfortunate no it's not unfortunate you did this to your organization but so i i would love it if

396
00:40:21,700 --> 00:40:26,820
there was one ci that we could refer and knew how to do unit testing of ci but i i don't know of any

397
00:40:26,820 --> 00:40:32,180
of them it's just a hard problem yeah okay well it is the application owner's responsibility okay

398
00:40:32,180 --> 00:40:36,260
thank you i was going to say it's like i agree it is someone's responsibility and it's the

399
00:40:36,260 --> 00:40:41,940
application okay application you should come back to them 10 years from now and say you know you made

400
00:40:41,940 --> 00:40:46,820
these life choices and they went terribly wrong regardless that's a whole other topic how do you get

401
00:40:46,820 --> 00:40:51,060
somebody to care about 10 years in the future when chances are they're not going to be there anymore

402
00:40:51,060 --> 00:40:57,540
right and this is where our platform i think is a starting is on the road to an organization be

403
00:40:57,540 --> 00:41:04,340
able to care for itself knowing that people transfer knowing that people's tenure in their teams and in

404
00:41:04,340 --> 00:41:11,220
their organizations is shorter than the applications let's just know that in advance right um and i think

405
00:41:11,220 --> 00:41:17,300
that's one of the benefits of the platform is a lot of that is now solved but as we've talked

406
00:41:17,300 --> 00:41:22,900
about the constantly updating security issues and the constant awareness that ci is as a first-class

407
00:41:22,900 --> 00:41:30,260
thing um we have to think about these things um hey it's good to have problems that aren't solved yet

408
00:41:30,260 --> 00:41:34,740
yeah well it keeps the the platform team busy also right someone's got to program the robots the robots

409
00:41:34,740 --> 00:41:38,980
are going to take over the world as long as they're thinking about their customers they're going to keep busy

410
00:41:38,980 --> 00:41:46,980
with stuff to do um and uh and then of course they're going to have those abandoned apps to to figure

411
00:41:46,980 --> 00:41:51,540
out but if they've done their job right from the get-go and they've worked with their app owners

412
00:41:51,540 --> 00:41:57,620
to build pipelines they should still be able to help make sure those abandoned we haven't even gotten to

413
00:41:57,620 --> 00:42:04,180
the other challenge yeah if you if you buy into the microservices um model of splitting out your application

414
00:42:04,900 --> 00:42:09,780
um i don't mean buy into it that it's wrong not to but you know the monolith versus microservice

415
00:42:09,780 --> 00:42:16,020
the moment you've got two apps that talk to each other how how what is what is that how do you

416
00:42:16,900 --> 00:42:22,020
make sure that your next version that's going down the pipeline could be deployed in production or is

417
00:42:22,020 --> 00:42:27,060
it dependent on something coming down in the other pipeline of the other app and that's just the two

418
00:42:27,060 --> 00:42:32,180
apps when you've got dozens of these things what is the the way in which you detach them all and feel

419
00:42:32,180 --> 00:42:38,340
confident that they can all be have do you need to how do i test my app against what's in production of

420
00:42:38,340 --> 00:42:43,140
all my dependencies and all the things that are dependent upon me um how do you bring that up i

421
00:42:43,140 --> 00:42:47,540
find these problems really interesting no i think we're going to have to save that problem for another

422
00:42:47,540 --> 00:42:53,380
day just looking at the time um we should definitely do a part two because i want that that's a good

423
00:42:53,380 --> 00:42:57,220
one to explore because isn't the whole point of microservices is that you can develop your service

424
00:42:57,220 --> 00:43:02,180
independently of the others so you can you're not and it's yeah i think i think sometimes it's easy

425
00:43:02,180 --> 00:43:07,620
to do things um and only from that perspective do you realize that it's uh perhaps you should take

426
00:43:07,620 --> 00:43:13,860
five steps back off the cliff yeah it's just because you can stand on the cliff doesn't mean maybe you

427
00:43:13,860 --> 00:43:19,540
should um yeah so we're running close on time so i think we should uh give dr nick a couple minutes

428
00:43:19,540 --> 00:43:24,100
tell us a little bit more about stark and wayne for our listeners who may not be familiar with you guys

429
00:43:24,100 --> 00:43:30,740
so we especially very much around the pcf operational life cycle so we work with the product owner either

430
00:43:30,740 --> 00:43:40,340
to be part of their operational team to run pcf and pks and pcf um to uh or for those product owners

431
00:43:40,340 --> 00:43:47,940
we might you know own and operate everything so we'll be their sort of proxy team um and yeah i mean

432
00:43:47,940 --> 00:43:54,500
we love seeing this thing be a product we love apps coming on the platform and being successful

433
00:43:54,500 --> 00:44:00,420
it is just the nicest thing to see developers you know just be excited about the fact that something

434
00:44:00,420 --> 00:44:06,100
was fun and simple um it's fun finding out what they're trying to do and answer their questions

435
00:44:06,660 --> 00:44:12,820
um and uh and so then in that responsibility we liaise was the unspoken we i say unspoken we haven't

436
00:44:12,820 --> 00:44:18,100
spoken about them but the networking the infrastructure teams the the subsystems the email all those other

437
00:44:18,100 --> 00:44:25,620
things um it's super awkward and hard but it's the last time anyone has to do it because once it's

438
00:44:25,620 --> 00:44:30,740
integrated into the platform now everyone gets access to how do we send an email everyone has access to

439
00:44:30,740 --> 00:44:35,620
how do we access oracle no more jira tickets saying could i please have another oracle you know thing

440
00:44:36,100 --> 00:44:42,580
um so just getting an organization to that where people can self-serve is is the delight of our

441
00:44:42,580 --> 00:44:48,820
profession so yeah so we work mostly with uh a lot of pivotal you know uh directly with our customers

442
00:44:48,820 --> 00:44:56,420
helping you know customers have you know long success fantastic and um i think we we have

443
00:44:57,140 --> 00:45:02,260
cf summit coming up we do philadelphia please come yeah uh there was gonna be when you're gonna be

444
00:45:02,260 --> 00:45:05,540
there we'll be there if you're a product owner you want to meet other product owners come along if

445
00:45:05,540 --> 00:45:10,340
you're an app developer and you want to learn more about deploying apps um you should come along you

446
00:45:10,340 --> 00:45:14,500
should also just go to youtube and watch all the talks that we've ever been given for the last five

447
00:45:14,500 --> 00:45:20,660
years yeah that'll only that'll keep you busy you should come to to the stocking room booth and say

448
00:45:20,660 --> 00:45:26,020
g'day i'll be floating around dr williams and the team and obviously there'll be a huge pivotal booth

449
00:45:26,020 --> 00:45:31,620
yeah i think so yeah we might be there it will be green i mean by we i mean jeff and i

450
00:45:33,220 --> 00:45:36,740
we'll be there but i don't know how much time we'll be at the booth right because you're going to perhaps

451
00:45:36,740 --> 00:45:39,780
do some podcasts we've got some other stuff yeah if you have interesting stories and you want to

452
00:45:39,780 --> 00:45:47,460
share on a podcast just like this you should uh ask yes just just show up doraine and i we should

453
00:45:47,460 --> 00:45:51,300
just set up in the middle of the show put your hand up yeah put your hand up and say i have an

454
00:45:51,300 --> 00:45:55,940
interesting story to tell right we could probably knock out i don't know a dozen podcasts over the

455
00:45:55,940 --> 00:46:00,180
the course of a couple days just just the people who listen to this one and then actually followed

456
00:46:00,180 --> 00:46:07,300
your advice unlike this podcast short and sharp is awesome yeah okay well cool so um folks will will

457
00:46:07,300 --> 00:46:13,860
come stalk you at sea of summit yep that sounds great um any other place where we're in SpringOne

458
00:46:13,860 --> 00:46:21,220
will be a SpringOne yes looking forward to october plan now uh buy your cowboy boots now by the way

459
00:46:21,220 --> 00:46:28,020
because it takes a little while to break them in and i just would hate to see people sliding around

460
00:46:28,020 --> 00:46:33,220
on brand new cowboy boots come october that's a good one piece of fashion advice for the for the

461
00:46:33,220 --> 00:46:37,940
episode i usually have something don't i that's very good just a little bit of context SpringOne is in

462
00:46:37,940 --> 00:46:43,540
austin this year which yes austin texas that's a cool little town have you ever seen all the bats

463
00:46:43,540 --> 00:46:48,980
that live underneath that bridge i mean not up close kind of famous you should go check it out at dusk

464
00:46:48,980 --> 00:46:53,380
it's really cool yeah i will i look forward to that you have no idea what i'm talking about google

465
00:46:54,020 --> 00:46:59,700
bats bridge austin and you'll see what i'm talking about yeah if you don't know what google is i'm

466
00:46:59,700 --> 00:47:05,620
surprised that you've got to any of these podcasts yeah you've got bigger problems right you've clearly

467
00:47:05,620 --> 00:47:10,980
or you might have actually figured it all out and then just keep doing what you're doing there you go

468
00:47:11,780 --> 00:47:22,820
all right well thanks again and uh until next time thanks listeners