1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,340
Well, I don't have any prepared inanity to start this one with.

2
00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:07,940
I was thinking, you know, I should start a book, you know, Inane Cold Opens.

3
00:00:07,940 --> 00:00:13,000
There'll be 300 pages on the weather and I'll deal with that, which I think will work.

4
00:00:13,180 --> 00:00:15,760
But here's what I want to ask you, too.

5
00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:22,600
Now, on my other podcast, I had this topic, the Software Defined Talk podcast, last week.

6
00:00:23,080 --> 00:00:24,060
Here's what I want to know.

7
00:00:24,620 --> 00:00:26,920
What do executives actually want to hear?

8
00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:31,540
When you go talk with CIOs and stuff, what are they thrilled to hear about?

9
00:00:31,540 --> 00:00:37,300
What really, like, gets them chomping at the bit or whatever the metaphor of the year is?

10
00:00:37,620 --> 00:00:38,880
How about you start first, guest?

11
00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:41,360
Sure.

12
00:00:41,480 --> 00:00:46,620
My name's James Urquhart and I'm a field CTO at Pivotal.

13
00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:53,960
I think what executives want to hear is that you're going to make them look good.

14
00:00:54,960 --> 00:01:10,120
That you're going to provide solutions that are going to achieve the things that they see as most important in the eyes of their superiors.

15
00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:15,780
But also, I mean, you know, and that all has to do with customer success, driving customer success, driving revenue.

16
00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:18,660
It all boils back to the usual things that people talk about.

17
00:01:18,660 --> 00:01:25,980
But when I, you know, when I speak to an executive, it's more important for me to know up front what their biggest pain points are.

18
00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:30,460
What are the things that they are considering really critical to address?

19
00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:35,020
And I think when you can address those things, you have a good match.

20
00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:35,660
That's right.

21
00:01:35,780 --> 00:01:40,400
So that's always the most helpful answer is they want to hear what they want to hear.

22
00:01:40,700 --> 00:01:42,460
So you should find that out, right?

23
00:01:42,860 --> 00:01:46,080
You know, what the critical problems and stuff they're dealing with.

24
00:01:46,540 --> 00:01:47,460
How about yourself, Richard?

25
00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:48,240
What do you think?

26
00:01:48,380 --> 00:01:49,200
Yeah, that was a good answer.

27
00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:50,840
I would have just said Cooper Denny's.

28
00:01:51,020 --> 00:01:51,540
Thank goodness.

29
00:01:51,700 --> 00:01:52,400
James went first.

30
00:01:53,060 --> 00:01:54,800
No, I think that was a great answer.

31
00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,980
I mean, to your point, it's are we helping them focus on the right stuff?

32
00:01:57,980 --> 00:02:02,720
Or we may be helping them cut through the fog and just pointing out, you know, the outcomes that matter.

33
00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:03,360
It's your point.

34
00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:04,740
Are we helping them solve a pain point?

35
00:02:04,780 --> 00:02:05,700
Are they stuck in the mud?

36
00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:07,460
So they want to hear kind of a path forward.

37
00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:12,520
I think every time we have conversations at that level is, do you all kind of know what you're talking about?

38
00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:13,300
Are you going to help me?

39
00:02:14,060 --> 00:02:16,140
And versus just like, hey, give me interesting information.

40
00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:17,680
They'll probably forget by the next meeting.

41
00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:18,920
That's probably not the point.

42
00:02:19,180 --> 00:02:19,340
Yeah.

43
00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:19,760
Right.

44
00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,120
See, we can't we can't help but talk about the weather with cutting through the fog.

45
00:02:23,220 --> 00:02:27,960
It's just we're old enough that that's all that that we it's everywhere we go through.

46
00:02:28,140 --> 00:02:28,220
Yeah.

47
00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:33,520
Next thing you know, in a couple of years, we'll be talking about, you know, cancer and which of our friends has died or not.

48
00:02:33,820 --> 00:02:34,760
Do the roll call.

49
00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,560
If I if I remember what my grandparents, their favorite topics were.

50
00:02:39,640 --> 00:02:42,240
And and as always, the price of milk.

51
00:02:42,420 --> 00:02:44,580
You got to cover that as a bellwether.

52
00:02:44,580 --> 00:02:49,300
Well, as as as mentioned, we have we have James as our guest on this episode.

53
00:02:49,300 --> 00:02:51,800
I think when did you join Pivotal?

54
00:02:52,020 --> 00:02:52,840
Was it January?

55
00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:54,400
I don't remember.

56
00:02:54,780 --> 00:02:55,920
First week of December.

57
00:02:56,140 --> 00:02:57,080
First week of December.

58
00:02:57,860 --> 00:02:58,080
Yeah.

59
00:02:58,780 --> 00:02:59,760
Well, that's exciting.

60
00:02:59,960 --> 00:03:03,660
Well, well, we'll we'll come back as always to talk with you.

61
00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:05,700
But first and feel free to join in.

62
00:03:05,740 --> 00:03:10,000
There's there's some little news items or things we would like to call attention to.

63
00:03:10,620 --> 00:03:13,700
What what what why don't you start us off, Richard?

64
00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:15,600
Yeah.

65
00:03:15,700 --> 00:03:16,400
So what do we got here?

66
00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:25,500
So the first thing I thought I'd point out was the the sneak who's a partner of Pivotal's great security company issued an interesting security report last week.

67
00:03:25,500 --> 00:03:28,720
It was the state of open source security and just a lot of findings.

68
00:03:28,780 --> 00:03:29,520
We'll have the link in there.

69
00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:30,560
You should absolutely read it.

70
00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:32,240
It's a it's an easy, easy read.

71
00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:37,740
But just a big increase in vulnerable libraries for people doing dependencies in their application code.

72
00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,660
Developers actually think they should own security, but don't feel like they have the right tooling.

73
00:03:42,220 --> 00:03:44,620
Even people who run open source projects want to be secure.

74
00:03:44,700 --> 00:03:45,560
They don't their goal.

75
00:03:45,620 --> 00:03:49,220
I don't think is to have an insecure library, but a lot of them lack some skills to do it.

76
00:03:49,260 --> 00:03:53,720
And if you look at the most popular container images, most of them have a lot of vulnerabilities in them.

77
00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:58,260
So it's just an interesting landscape review of, yeah, security still is a tricky thing.

78
00:03:59,020 --> 00:04:00,460
Here's some things to maybe focus on.

79
00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:04,360
And it obviously should probably dictate some of your technology purchases and strategy.

80
00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:05,280
Yeah.

81
00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:05,760
Yeah.

82
00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:11,540
You know, I mean, I think as I've joked about here, I always I always metaphorically equate security to like food must taste good.

83
00:04:11,540 --> 00:04:18,540
And I guess I guess metaphorically speaking, there's a lot of food that doesn't taste good out there that that people are buying, which is unfortunate.

84
00:04:18,780 --> 00:04:21,100
Maybe they just need to add some salted butter.

85
00:04:22,100 --> 00:04:22,200
Yeah.

86
00:04:22,340 --> 00:04:24,360
I mean, look at like empty calories, right?

87
00:04:24,380 --> 00:04:30,700
There's a lot of processed food out there that people really don't know whether or not it's actually good for them.

88
00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:33,200
Yeah.

89
00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:37,700
So it's sort of sort of like a shelf cheese, like cheese that can sit on a shelf.

90
00:04:38,280 --> 00:04:38,700
Right.

91
00:04:38,900 --> 00:04:39,220
Exactly.

92
00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,400
Or, you know, truck step sushi.

93
00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:45,700
Oh, that's right.

94
00:04:45,700 --> 00:04:51,640
I mean, James, I guess question for you is even at something like this, maybe back to the even that early question.

95
00:04:51,740 --> 00:04:53,620
I'll tell you aspect what executives care about.

96
00:04:53,760 --> 00:05:05,220
I guess very few of the current technology we're all touting right now, whether that's containers, whether that's microservices architectures, whether that's even serverless, don't necessarily negate most of these concerns that they call out here.

97
00:05:05,300 --> 00:05:08,420
Like now you're using containers from third parties could have vulnerabilities.

98
00:05:08,660 --> 00:05:12,460
Now your app code is more distributed and you're using more dependencies than ever.

99
00:05:12,840 --> 00:05:13,960
That's a new attack surface.

100
00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,060
And serverless in a single cloud.

101
00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:17,760
Well, now there's a single place to go attack you.

102
00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:25,980
Like, it just seems like the ball, I don't know, maybe the goalposts keep shifting versus necessarily stamping out old security concerns, new ones are popping up.

103
00:05:26,380 --> 00:05:32,960
What's your sense of that kind of, I don't know, is there any sort of false confidence we get from current trends that some of these old things are going away?

104
00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:34,100
Or are we just finding new problems?

105
00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:50,040
No, well, I think there is a trend that's understood that as you move to clouds where other people have to maintain layers of what you're dealing with, security is their problem at those layers, right?

106
00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:58,240
The Amazon shared security model, I think it's sort of becoming the assumed model in a lot of ways for people who consume cloud.

107
00:05:58,420 --> 00:06:00,720
So that part of it is kind of good, right?

108
00:06:00,740 --> 00:06:07,820
If you're a developer and you're like, you know, now more and more the unit, the deployment is the unit I actually care about.

109
00:06:07,820 --> 00:06:14,360
So we're going from, you know, from servers to processes with containers to functions with serverless.

110
00:06:14,540 --> 00:06:15,480
That's great.

111
00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,300
And all that other stuff should be dealt with by somebody.

112
00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:43,660
However, if you're going to consume stuff that has been delivered by an unknown party that you can't identify succinctly that they are maintaining the security and that they will update and patch and have a mechanism to update and patch without disrupting you, then it is, in fact, your problem to deal with the security of those third-party things that you're consuming with and to make sure you understand them.

113
00:06:43,660 --> 00:06:55,460
Which is why I think there's so much focus in a lot of organizations on vetting what containers are allowed and consumed within the organization.

114
00:06:56,180 --> 00:07:04,380
And so, you know, putting more restrictions on what developers can do in order to increase or decrease the risk of security issues.

115
00:07:04,940 --> 00:07:08,360
So I think we're going to have this heave and hoe for a while.

116
00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:16,260
And it might drive mechanisms in the industry to make sure that things are secure before they're offered like what Apple does with the App Store.

117
00:07:17,300 --> 00:07:32,260
Or it might drive, you know, insane decisions by individuals and organizations to, you know, jump through hoops to test everything that they've got for security problems.

118
00:07:32,500 --> 00:07:36,080
I guess that's not insane, but, you know, but there's going to increase the workload for the dev.

119
00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:36,920
Sure.

120
00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:38,040
Yeah.

121
00:07:38,340 --> 00:07:42,740
You sort of have, you know, at the very minimum, new things to worry about.

122
00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:53,100
And as a result, the, I don't know what the security people call it, but like the models of consideration to think about when there's some new thing.

123
00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,260
We lose sight of the fact that there are new things to worry about.

124
00:07:56,360 --> 00:08:00,620
We lose sight of the fact that there are some old things that are being taken off the table for us to worry about.

125
00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:01,540
That's a good point.

126
00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:02,480
Right.

127
00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:19,760
So it's, I don't know that it's a net even or anything like that, but I do think it's important to note that, that, you know, there are mechanisms out there that allow others either within your organization or outside of your organization to deal with layers of security that were your problem in the past.

128
00:08:20,900 --> 00:08:21,380
Yeah.

129
00:08:21,380 --> 00:08:21,460
Yeah.

130
00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:22,400
Your problem.

131
00:08:22,460 --> 00:08:26,460
Well, speaking of your problem in the past, we'll see if this transition works out well.

132
00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:35,360
So that, uh, as, as I mentioned over the past, uh, I don't know, many episodes, I've been working on this little booklet or report as O'Reilly calls it.

133
00:08:35,740 --> 00:08:45,560
Uh, and, uh, now it's available, uh, for people to have, I don't know if you can like get it from somewhere other than pivotal at the moment, but, uh, it's called a monolithic transformation.

134
00:08:45,560 --> 00:09:00,060
And I had, I had our, uh, I, I had a moment of marketing genius where I came up with a very lengthy URL, which is a pivotal.io slash monolithic transformation, which, which, uh, you know, you got, you got a spelling challenge there.

135
00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:01,340
How do you spell monolithic?

136
00:09:01,940 --> 00:09:03,520
But, uh, so that book's out now.

137
00:09:03,620 --> 00:09:04,700
People can go check it out.

138
00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:09,920
And, uh, I think maybe there's like three sentences on security because I don't know anything about security.

139
00:09:10,380 --> 00:09:11,780
Uh, so, so why write it?

140
00:09:11,780 --> 00:09:18,780
I figured I'd use all of my, my, uh, my energy on talking about things I don't know about on the rest of the book rather than security.

141
00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:19,700
Makes sense.

142
00:09:19,980 --> 00:09:25,080
That's a good book for, uh, Coté not plugging the content, a lot of the content itself, but it's a great book.

143
00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:26,740
It's absolutely something everybody should read.

144
00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:27,580
It's freely available.

145
00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:29,940
It'll be up on Safari books online in a couple months.

146
00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,260
But I think pivotal gets a free period where it's just available from us.

147
00:09:33,460 --> 00:09:34,380
Oh, an exclusive.

148
00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:35,840
It is an exclusive.

149
00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:42,380
So, so when, uh, when, when am I going to be able to retire to, uh, a Tuscan villa since you've written one of these reports?

150
00:09:42,380 --> 00:09:44,020
What's the timeline I'm looking at, Richard?

151
00:09:44,420 --> 00:09:49,400
Yeah, I think it's when you're about 300, uh, based on the number of royalties.

152
00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:50,920
Yeah, that's right.

153
00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:59,340
If I, if I survive the, uh, the, uh, cancer, the cancer parlor catching up of old age and, uh, and become a vampire,

154
00:09:59,340 --> 00:10:01,100
then, uh, then, uh, you know, it'll be fine.

155
00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:01,500
Yeah.

156
00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:02,400
Yeah.

157
00:10:03,020 --> 00:10:06,580
What do you think the average length of a vampire's life is?

158
00:10:06,860 --> 00:10:08,760
Do you think, do you think, do you think they do all right?

159
00:10:08,820 --> 00:10:12,460
Or do you think it's sort of like a high risk early, early death situation?

160
00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:14,060
Well, that's a good question.

161
00:10:14,060 --> 00:10:16,400
Cause yeah, I think the average, I mean, you're not being killed.

162
00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,560
It's not like six or 800 years old or something like that, but you're right.

163
00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:19,840
You are.

164
00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:22,660
There's a lot of stakes in the heart risk going out and around there.

165
00:10:22,740 --> 00:10:24,780
It's a, it's a high stakes life.

166
00:10:25,260 --> 00:10:26,860
Oh, it is.

167
00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,680
Well, also the digital transformation, stay for the vampire talk.

168
00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:32,200
Exactly.

169
00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:34,360
Maybe that'll be our new topic.

170
00:10:34,460 --> 00:10:35,340
The undead.

171
00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:40,000
Uh, well also, uh, you know, it's speaking of other things we launched, uh, we launched

172
00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:45,400
the intersect website and newsletter, uh, which, which has already got, it's got a, uh, CIO's

173
00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:45,560
guy.

174
00:10:45,660 --> 00:10:49,860
Speaking of what executives want to hear, there's a CIO's guide to Kubernetes, which, which is

175
00:10:49,860 --> 00:10:50,320
pretty good.

176
00:10:50,680 --> 00:10:54,580
I, uh, I, uh, I sent something over about like how to actually like test and validate

177
00:10:54,580 --> 00:11:00,060
corporate strategy, which, which, uh, we'll see if that's anything, but, uh, what other

178
00:11:00,060 --> 00:11:02,280
kind of stuff is, have, have y'all seen on there?

179
00:11:02,940 --> 00:11:05,580
Well, yeah, James already has a piece up there.

180
00:11:05,680 --> 00:11:06,420
Oh, that's right.

181
00:11:07,180 --> 00:11:11,780
I published a piece on, uh, an interesting effect that I saw that we could talk about

182
00:11:11,780 --> 00:11:18,360
later, but in the short, um, with, uh, using a platform and having a platform team that

183
00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:24,120
can maintain security of, of, of all the, you know, the, the, the building components

184
00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:30,980
and, and the underlying, uh, operating systems and systems and so on, uh, a, a very large

185
00:11:30,980 --> 00:11:37,820
bank was essentially, uh, discovering that they had no of the normal resistance that they

186
00:11:37,820 --> 00:11:41,660
get from security and audit teams or very little of it, much less of it.

187
00:11:42,140 --> 00:11:47,700
Um, and, uh, surprisingly more resistance from developers who were nervous about all that

188
00:11:47,700 --> 00:11:51,240
stuff that was being done for them and what that meant to their productivity.

189
00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:56,240
And the great thing about the platform is, uh, it, it shows you that you can update all

190
00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,120
that stuff and not affect developer productivity.

191
00:11:58,900 --> 00:12:00,400
Yeah, no, it's great.

192
00:12:00,500 --> 00:12:03,700
I mean, one of the reasons for those who are unfamiliar with intersect, we, we launched it

193
00:12:03,700 --> 00:12:07,840
mainly because we saw a gap between, I don't know, cause some of the general purpose

194
00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:12,580
executive advice and then the super low level, like, you know, here's how you configure

195
00:12:12,580 --> 00:12:16,180
something, you know, you know, Bosch manifest or Kubernetes release.

196
00:12:16,180 --> 00:12:19,580
So what is that middle section of like executive advice about technology?

197
00:12:19,660 --> 00:12:22,460
And so that's what intersect is it's website, it's a newsletter.

198
00:12:22,460 --> 00:12:25,760
So definitely go check that out, pivotal.io and see what you think.

199
00:12:26,180 --> 00:12:26,760
That's right.

200
00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,820
There's no, uh, there's no, uh, Mecco charts in Bosch.

201
00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,320
Unfortunately, you can't, you can't automate your, your strategy.

202
00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:35,340
Need some other stuff.

203
00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:41,260
Well, and, uh, you know, do people, are people still, uh, pedantic about on premise versus

204
00:12:41,260 --> 00:12:41,900
on premises?

205
00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:43,160
Are we over that?

206
00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:44,480
What are y'all two encountering?

207
00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:46,800
Oh, I'm, I'm pedantic as heck about it.

208
00:12:46,980 --> 00:12:49,220
So I, I assume premises, on premises.

209
00:12:49,780 --> 00:12:50,160
That's right.

210
00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:51,480
No, it's on premise.

211
00:12:51,980 --> 00:12:52,440
Uh-oh.

212
00:12:53,620 --> 00:12:54,440
Oh no, it's on premises.

213
00:12:54,700 --> 00:12:55,220
No, you're right.

214
00:12:55,260 --> 00:13:02,100
It's on premises because premise in the case of on premise means the, the, the context around

215
00:13:02,100 --> 00:13:02,940
an idea, right?

216
00:13:02,980 --> 00:13:04,360
The premise behind an idea.

217
00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:05,060
That's right.

218
00:13:05,180 --> 00:13:09,360
So, so maybe on premise would be, uh, the idea originates from you.

219
00:13:09,740 --> 00:13:12,740
It's on your premise instead of some other person.

220
00:13:12,740 --> 00:13:17,220
You haven't outsourced your, your thinking to someone else, which, which is probably good,

221
00:13:17,220 --> 00:13:21,320
except maybe, you know, in like medicine and things like that, you might want to outsource

222
00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,500
it and, and, and I hear in finance, but you know, we'll see.

223
00:13:25,580 --> 00:13:30,460
Well, uh, there's a couple of on premises, uh, items one, uh, there's, I think, uh, there's

224
00:13:30,460 --> 00:13:34,860
a beta of, of Google's, uh, cloud thing out and, and you wrote a post on that, Richard.

225
00:13:34,860 --> 00:13:36,620
So give us a little summary of it.

226
00:13:37,420 --> 00:13:41,660
Yeah, I just dug into it for an InfoQ article about their new cloud services platform, pretty

227
00:13:41,660 --> 00:13:46,980
much a hybrid kind of play from Google that for something that runs on-prem, uh, it's really

228
00:13:46,980 --> 00:13:51,840
the flagship part of it is the Google container engine on-prem or Kubernetes engine, GKE on-prem.

229
00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:56,580
But then they wrap in things like Stackdriver for monitoring and you can put things like Knative

230
00:13:56,580 --> 00:14:01,140
on it, really, again, recognizing the hybrid need people are running in both places.

231
00:14:01,540 --> 00:14:07,580
One of the things I referenced in the article and the Google fellow who they quoted in there

232
00:14:07,580 --> 00:14:11,480
is making the statement that instead of even seeing it as these clouds against each other,

233
00:14:11,540 --> 00:14:15,400
like it's Google versus Amazon versus Microsoft versus IBM and Alibaba.

234
00:14:15,580 --> 00:14:16,780
It's really the stacks.

235
00:14:16,980 --> 00:14:19,160
Like what are the durable stacks that are going to win?

236
00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:23,560
And in their mind, this could potentially be that durable stack made up of like SEO, Envoy,

237
00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:24,840
Kubernetes, K-Native.

238
00:14:25,300 --> 00:14:28,380
Like, does that become a new LAMP stack, hypothetically, or something like that?

239
00:14:28,420 --> 00:14:32,580
But those are a durable stack that kind of wins at the market, almost agnostic of the cloud.

240
00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,380
So interesting, interesting goal there.

241
00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,760
It's just certifying an on-prem platform takes a long time.

242
00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:43,500
So just the question will be, given they say, you know, even Google says, hey, we want to

243
00:14:43,500 --> 00:14:44,560
go through all the certifications.

244
00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:45,500
That's a long journey.

245
00:14:45,500 --> 00:14:48,220
So I don't know when customers can really bank on this being a thing.

246
00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:51,600
Yeah, it's interesting.

247
00:14:51,700 --> 00:14:52,660
It's an interesting play.

248
00:14:52,780 --> 00:14:58,960
I worked on the Microsoft Azure stack stuff in the early days when I was part of Dell.

249
00:15:00,140 --> 00:15:01,220
It'll be interesting to see.

250
00:15:01,300 --> 00:15:03,420
I personally think it's all about the services.

251
00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:12,140
And so the stack matters less than the availability of services that work the same in public.

252
00:15:12,140 --> 00:15:12,480
Interesting.

253
00:15:13,020 --> 00:15:14,560
But that's a personal opinion.

254
00:15:14,700 --> 00:15:17,320
Oh, you mean the non-human services?

255
00:15:18,340 --> 00:15:18,740
Yeah.

256
00:15:18,940 --> 00:15:19,140
Yeah.

257
00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:19,420
Yeah.

258
00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:19,780
Yeah.

259
00:15:20,060 --> 00:15:20,260
Yeah.

260
00:15:20,260 --> 00:15:21,000
And the non-humans.

261
00:15:21,060 --> 00:15:21,240
Yeah.

262
00:15:21,340 --> 00:15:22,520
That's a good distinction.

263
00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:22,800
Yeah.

264
00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:29,220
No, I mean, it's all in terms of the infrastructure services and cloud services that are delivered.

265
00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:29,760
Yeah.

266
00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,060
The actual features that are out there.

267
00:15:32,140 --> 00:15:33,340
I don't know, to put it one way.

268
00:15:33,340 --> 00:15:37,600
Well, then also, there's now...

269
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:42,320
I was talking again on my other podcast about the impressiveness of the page over at VMware

270
00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:46,600
on their Kubernetes distribution where they're just three things.

271
00:15:47,260 --> 00:15:49,000
But there's...

272
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:50,940
And just very clear links of them.

273
00:15:50,940 --> 00:15:56,800
But now from VMware and Pivotal, you can get three distinct Pivotal container service.

274
00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:02,820
I don't know what you would call them distributions or running instances.

275
00:16:02,820 --> 00:16:14,080
So you got your community one, which correct me if I'm wrong, but it's kind of the ongoing evolution of the Heptio thing to have with some sort of community-driven support around it.

276
00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,960
And then you've got your, let's call it classic Pivotal container service.

277
00:16:18,580 --> 00:16:29,100
And then there's a, I don't know if people call it managed anymore, but there's a managed run for instance that you have that VMware will manage and run for you.

278
00:16:29,180 --> 00:16:31,580
So what did I get right there?

279
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:39,060
I mean, I love that you, I mean, amazingly, for each three, I actually used the wrong name for each one, which just makes me love to run for instance.

280
00:16:39,780 --> 00:16:42,240
I try to, you know, I try to be unbiased.

281
00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,740
They always tell me, they always tell me when I go talk, don't give us a vendor pitch.

282
00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:49,000
So if I'm ignorant of what the vendor does, I can't give a pitch.

283
00:16:49,300 --> 00:16:50,000
Oh, it's perfect.

284
00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:54,080
I mean, I was really thinking the last one you were going to get right, but that was, that's why I love you.

285
00:16:54,500 --> 00:16:59,500
So yes, essential PKS is upstream Kubernetes, a lot of Heptio stuff, absolutely.

286
00:17:00,140 --> 00:17:06,060
Enterprise PKS is the one you already know and love, the one that runs on all the clouds, kind of traditional PKS.

287
00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:10,440
And there's Cloud PKS, the managed one that runs in AWS and other clouds in the future.

288
00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:14,640
So the goal is, look, different Kubernetes for different stages.

289
00:17:14,820 --> 00:17:25,580
If you already run this yourself and you really want support from now one of the largest contributors to Kubernetes, not to mention the company that has two of the creators in there, like that's probably a good service to buy.

290
00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:26,020
That's great.

291
00:17:26,100 --> 00:17:32,100
If you don't really have those skills internally and don't want to be in the business of running a lot of Kubernetes, the enterprise is great.

292
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,380
That's an ideal choice, especially when developers are asking for it.

293
00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:40,360
And if you want nothing to do with it except serving up an endpoint, then you use the hosted managed version.

294
00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:45,080
It's not even a progression, I don't think, because you could go from immediately to the cloud version.

295
00:17:45,220 --> 00:17:49,580
Or you could be using the essential one because, look, you already feel like you're experts.

296
00:17:49,700 --> 00:17:51,600
You just want somebody to call if something breaks.

297
00:17:51,700 --> 00:17:55,020
So I don't think it's even this sort of progression that you move between them.

298
00:17:55,140 --> 00:17:57,220
It just means where are you at which stage.

299
00:17:57,260 --> 00:17:58,440
Any of those could be a good choice.

300
00:17:59,160 --> 00:17:59,520
Indeed.

301
00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:00,920
Well, thanks for correcting me there.

302
00:18:01,140 --> 00:18:06,380
I'm going to go make some flashcards and I'll practice that.

303
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,960
Have you all ever looked in Kindle and they have flashcards in there?

304
00:18:10,140 --> 00:18:12,340
Like, I always wonder if anyone actually uses that.

305
00:18:12,700 --> 00:18:18,280
That seems like, I don't know, maybe for the textbook stuff, but it seems awfully proactive of people.

306
00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:24,280
It's sort of like if you logged into Medium and by default it did the five paragraph essay template.

307
00:18:25,360 --> 00:18:27,200
I'm not sure that's a technology anymore.

308
00:18:27,340 --> 00:18:30,920
So then finally, there's a couple of items that you put in there, Richard.

309
00:18:30,980 --> 00:18:31,720
Do you want to cover those?

310
00:18:31,780 --> 00:18:32,920
And then we'll get to James.

311
00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,360
Yeah, real quick, just for those who are starting to pay attention again, even from an executive

312
00:18:37,360 --> 00:18:40,760
leadership level, let alone technical leads, but chaos engineering.

313
00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:47,420
And they see this idea of purposely introducing some instability, if you will, to test hypotheses

314
00:18:47,420 --> 00:18:51,500
about the reliability of your systems and what happens when certain things go wrong.

315
00:18:51,580 --> 00:18:56,220
And how do I test and experiment, not just randomly shut things off and see what happens,

316
00:18:56,260 --> 00:18:59,760
but have some hypotheses, test them, harden your systems, make them better.

317
00:19:00,260 --> 00:19:03,360
Gremlin's a great company who does a lot of great stuff around there.

318
00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:08,080
They announced a free version of their product that helps you do things like shutdown attacks

319
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:12,060
and actually shut down and reboot different hosts or containers so you can experiment and

320
00:19:12,060 --> 00:19:12,680
see what happens.

321
00:19:12,740 --> 00:19:17,900
Or even kind of CPU tests to see what happens if you just flood a CPU, what happens to your

322
00:19:17,900 --> 00:19:18,440
application.

323
00:19:18,700 --> 00:19:20,800
So Gremlin's great software for this.

324
00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:22,580
There's other technologies that help with this too.

325
00:19:22,660 --> 00:19:26,300
But if you're trying to dip your toe into chaos engineering, it seems like a great choice.

326
00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:31,900
Well, then also, before we get to the last part, I just want to remind everyone, we've got

327
00:19:31,900 --> 00:19:34,120
a bunch of SpringOne tours going on.

328
00:19:34,220 --> 00:19:40,500
These are little regional events we have that basically bring, it's mostly programmer focus,

329
00:19:40,660 --> 00:19:47,240
but we also go over things like Kubernetes and Pivotal Container Service and Pivotal Cloud Foundry.

330
00:19:47,900 --> 00:19:53,420
And the ones I go to, I try to give some discussion about why all this matters and, you know, aligning

331
00:19:53,420 --> 00:19:58,680
with the business and overall how you're improving the way you're doing your software at a corporate

332
00:19:58,680 --> 00:19:59,080
level.

333
00:19:59,620 --> 00:20:03,320
But we've got one coming up in London, March 18th and 19th.

334
00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,040
And, you know, I think that'll, I'll be at that one.

335
00:20:06,300 --> 00:20:09,040
It'll, it'll be fun to check that out there.

336
00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:13,060
And then there's going to be another one in Amsterdam on March 21st and 2nd.

337
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:14,320
And of course I'll be there.

338
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:18,640
And there's a way to get a reduction, a discount on the tickets.

339
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,820
If you go check out the show notes over at pivotal.io slash podcast.

340
00:20:22,820 --> 00:20:29,840
And if you have a pin ready, the code is S1TOUR2019 underscore 100.

341
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,740
So that'll, that'll give you some amount off.

342
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,880
Interestingly enough, it's not actually a hundred units of cash that you get off.

343
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,420
So it'll be a fun game to see, see what you get.

344
00:20:40,500 --> 00:20:43,860
And there's all sorts of other SpringOne Tours happening globally.

345
00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:45,980
If you want to go check that out.

346
00:20:46,020 --> 00:20:48,820
I think you can go to SpringOneTour.io to see it.

347
00:20:48,860 --> 00:20:52,120
And then finally, I know all of us are excited about this.

348
00:20:52,340 --> 00:20:58,220
The, the call for papers or the submissions for SpringOne platform is open.

349
00:20:58,660 --> 00:21:04,400
So there's probably each of us is, is helping select talks in various tracks and doing things

350
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:04,920
like that.

351
00:21:05,020 --> 00:21:07,140
So you can be guaranteed it'll be a great show.

352
00:21:07,140 --> 00:21:10,540
And because Richard's involved, we'll use the proper product names for things.

353
00:21:11,300 --> 00:21:12,260
So you'll, you'll have that.

354
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:12,660
No promise.

355
00:21:13,860 --> 00:21:17,180
But it'll be, it'll be in my hometown of Austin, Texas.

356
00:21:17,380 --> 00:21:19,460
So it's a good excuse to come to Austin.

357
00:21:19,460 --> 00:21:23,560
And I just remembered that either weekend there is Austin city limits.

358
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:29,160
So we're sandwiched in between there, uh, like, like some delicious meat, uh, between two

359
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:30,660
pieces of, uh, of good bread.

360
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:31,020
I don't know.

361
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,780
I'm going to go for maybe a pastrami or a Reuben.

362
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:35,840
I think that's, that's what it seems like.

363
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:40,140
But, but, uh, anyways, it's, it's a good, it's a good reason to come check out how to, uh,

364
00:21:40,140 --> 00:21:42,220
help your organization get better at software.

365
00:21:42,780 --> 00:21:47,220
And, uh, there'll be also just sort of like general, uh, improving the way you do programming

366
00:21:47,220 --> 00:21:50,980
and also, uh, do your, your operations and DevOps and things like that.

367
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:56,440
And then you can come to Austin, eat a beef rib or, uh, some excellent vegetarian, vegan

368
00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:58,980
options if you're not into that kind of thing.

369
00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:04,040
So, so with that, why don't you, uh, give, uh, give a, uh, a large introduction to yourself?

370
00:22:04,100 --> 00:22:06,180
What do you, uh, what, what's your story?

371
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,180
What, what do you, what do you do around here?

372
00:22:08,180 --> 00:22:10,760
And, uh, what have you been up to in past years?

373
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:11,920
Who are you?

374
00:22:14,300 --> 00:22:20,380
So again, I'm, I'm James Urquhart and, uh, I'm in the field CTO, uh, global field CTO

375
00:22:20,380 --> 00:22:21,380
organization at Pivotal.

376
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,140
I'll explain that a little bit more in a second.

377
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:29,320
Um, my background is in distributed systems, uh, since the early nineties, I've been

378
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,040
working in various forms of what that means.

379
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:40,520
Uh, uh, early, early client server work with, um, small talk and believe it or not, a small

380
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:45,340
talk front end talking to a Fox pro backend, which, you know, some of us who come from that

381
00:22:45,340 --> 00:22:48,380
era will recognize as not being as weird as it sounds today.

382
00:22:49,380 --> 00:22:55,460
Um, and, uh, kind of, uh, first vendor that I worked for was a company called Forte software,

383
00:22:55,460 --> 00:22:59,040
which did a 4GL environment for building distributed systems.

384
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:06,080
Um, I spent, uh, four years working in the field as a consultant there and learned a huge

385
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:11,820
amount about, uh, the pressures of, of building a distributed system that can scale, that can

386
00:23:11,820 --> 00:23:15,400
fail, uh, has failure recovery capabilities and so on.

387
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:22,800
Um, and, uh, uh, uh, when Sun bought, uh, Forte, I spent about six years doing various things at Sun.

388
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:30,480
Um, if you were forced to change either your screen name or your username at some point with, uh,

389
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,860
Java sun.com or, or one of the other sun.com properties, that was me.

390
00:23:34,860 --> 00:23:41,660
I, uh, I, uh, I drove that project and, and, uh, various, uh, interesting things in my past

391
00:23:41,660 --> 00:23:42,360
there at Sun.

392
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,540
It was a very kind of heady time at Sun.

393
00:23:45,660 --> 00:23:54,980
And then, uh, from there, uh, did, uh, some work at Cisco, um, and, uh, uh, doing, uh, cloud

394
00:23:54,980 --> 00:23:59,240
strategy work, uh, worked at it before that I worked at a company called Cassatt, which did,

395
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,820
uh, distributed, uh, the data center automation.

396
00:24:02,460 --> 00:24:07,120
And, uh, that sort of led me to start blogging and led me to start writing a blog called the

397
00:24:07,120 --> 00:24:12,660
wisdom of clouds, which, um, which was an early cloud blogging, which, you know, I was very

398
00:24:12,660 --> 00:24:18,020
lucky, got quite a bit of play and, and quite a bit of, uh, uh, influence for a while there.

399
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:23,640
Um, uh, ended up at CNET, uh, ended up the blog ended up at CNET about the time that I was

400
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,700
at Cisco doing the cloud strategy stuff.

401
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:32,280
Um, and then, uh, I went to a little startup called in Stratus, which did, um, uh, uh,

402
00:24:32,460 --> 00:24:39,400
multi-cloud VM automation, uh, back in the EC2 pre-container days.

403
00:24:40,140 --> 00:24:42,500
And, uh, that was eventually sold to Dell.

404
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,640
Um, I did, uh, VP of product there.

405
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:51,920
And so, you know, they have a really wide, varied background in both field and product,

406
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,860
um, uh, related roles, um, over time.

407
00:24:56,020 --> 00:25:02,200
I, my last, uh, role was at AWS where I was a GM for a team that was working on,

408
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:10,060
uh, a application for, uh, the field that they were wanting to platform eyes for the rest

409
00:25:10,060 --> 00:25:10,620
of Amazon.

410
00:25:11,300 --> 00:25:16,700
And then, you know, I'll just simply say that it is AWS and they're always looking for things

411
00:25:16,700 --> 00:25:20,160
that could go further, but our target was Amazon at the time.

412
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:26,960
Uh, and, uh, and, you know, as, as that wrapped up, I, uh, decided I didn't want to manage

413
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:31,800
engineers anymore and wanted to get back out in the field, get my hands on stuff.

414
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:37,600
So I came here to Pivotal and the CTO org, the field CTO org at Pivotal is a resource.

415
00:25:37,740 --> 00:25:42,940
It's really, uh, some amazing people on, and then me.

416
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:49,940
Um, but some of, there's some great people out there that know a lot about, um, uh, about

417
00:25:49,940 --> 00:25:57,040
a number of core enterprise distributed cloud-based development and cloud native development topics

418
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:04,300
that can speak to an executive and work with an executive on, at the strategic level.

419
00:26:04,900 --> 00:26:10,880
Um, and in terms of sort of, uh, helping to evaluate the effectiveness of how they are

420
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,540
approaching cloud native and getting the benefits of cloud native.

421
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:20,220
Um, so we do a variety of things from, uh, you know, from kind of security deep dives to,

422
00:26:20,220 --> 00:26:28,700
uh, you know, uh, helping to, uh, watch how a number of different projects are adopting new

423
00:26:28,700 --> 00:26:31,280
cultural practices and, and the pivotal way.

424
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:38,000
Um, and, uh, and to talking about different ways that digital transformation that, you know,

425
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:43,640
that, that software can affect digital transformation and how that, uh, how the platform can be applied

426
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,740
or software can be applied with the platform to address those issues.

427
00:26:47,740 --> 00:26:53,960
Um, so I'm bringing to a number of customers, uh, mostly in the West in my case.

428
00:26:54,560 --> 00:27:01,420
Um, but there are the people that will, um, all over, uh, internationally and, and, uh, but we're

429
00:27:01,420 --> 00:27:08,660
applying, I'm applying, uh, my background in distributed systems development in, uh, in identifying

430
00:27:08,660 --> 00:27:10,800
software as a complex adaptive system.

431
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:18,600
Um, and what that means in terms of, of, uh, design and practices, uh, in terms of, um, cultural change

432
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:27,060
and, uh, the, the topic of, uh, uh, Mike's great book, uh, is it, is it something that I've gone

433
00:27:27,060 --> 00:27:30,620
through several times, uh, um, deconstructing monolith applications.

434
00:27:31,540 --> 00:27:39,640
Um, and so I'm bringing all of that background to these customers and working, uh, with, uh, senior

435
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:44,200
technical people generally in terms of identifying the best strategic way to approach those things.

436
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:45,360
That's awesome.

437
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:46,440
Good.

438
00:27:46,500 --> 00:27:50,040
So one of the things to me in that, that long history is, you know, especially with the

439
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,900
instantaneous time as you were thinking multi-cloud way back then when it was like, Hey, do I

440
00:27:53,900 --> 00:27:57,160
need multi-cloud manager tools where I spin up infrastructure in different places?

441
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,420
What's your take on the current, not just multi-cloud landscape, but even the imperative?

442
00:28:01,940 --> 00:28:04,480
Like what, why does someone really do that?

443
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:05,360
Why does someone care?

444
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:10,780
What advice would you give to a leader in an organization around the multi-cloud strategy?

445
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:18,860
Yeah, I, my, my personal opinion on the multi-cloud strategy is it's, it's very critical in two

446
00:28:18,860 --> 00:28:19,800
contexts.

447
00:28:20,260 --> 00:28:26,780
One context is, is that you have an organization that has a lot of things that just won't move

448
00:28:26,780 --> 00:28:34,500
tomorrow and migrate in a, you know, six month migration plan, uh, because of various technical

449
00:28:34,500 --> 00:28:41,620
requirements, because of maybe regulatory requirements, because of, um, uh, resource limitations that

450
00:28:41,620 --> 00:28:49,460
you might have, um, in those situations, um, very often it's, it's good to allow, um, or things

451
00:28:49,460 --> 00:28:52,420
to happen organically in terms of cloud native adoption.

452
00:28:53,140 --> 00:28:59,680
And in those situations, you may have on-premises plus, uh, a public cloud, or, uh, very often

453
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:04,940
there'll be on-premises and multiple, uh, public clouds in part because some of the technologies

454
00:29:04,940 --> 00:29:11,220
at, uh, at, uh, one cloud vendor may be better for the technologies that were used in the legacy

455
00:29:11,220 --> 00:29:18,920
system, uh, uh, prior, um, versus another that gives you, you know, better innovative capabilities

456
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:19,880
or whatever it may be.

457
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:21,680
So, um, that's one area.

458
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:29,120
And the other area then is, um, organizations that are really looking to, um, to spread risk

459
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:33,840
and to take advantage of the strength of certain, um, cloud providers.

460
00:29:34,020 --> 00:29:41,200
Um, and, and generally where I see this is, you know, a, an adoption of, um, Azure or,

461
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:49,480
um, or AWS for kind of compute capability, and then maybe a focus on, um, GCP for the data

462
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:54,640
services that they have and, and, uh, some of the really innovative data, um, and analytics

463
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,280
capabilities and machine learning capability that they have.

464
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:02,420
Um, but there, there may be a number of other different reasons why an organization that has

465
00:30:02,420 --> 00:30:07,100
enough applications out there with enough different use cases will say, you know what, you know,

466
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:13,140
love vendor A, but there are technologies that I really don't want to lose sight of in vendor

467
00:30:13,140 --> 00:30:15,180
B and I don't necessarily want to wait for.

468
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:22,360
Um, and so in those situations, uh, once again, um, you, you, it's hard to predict where those

469
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:24,080
applications will end up.

470
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:29,340
And so you need some flexibility in the way that you consume clouds and those, uh, but those

471
00:30:29,340 --> 00:30:31,120
are the two kinds of use cases where I really see it.

472
00:30:31,180 --> 00:30:36,860
And if you're, you know, where there's less of an imperative to do multi-cloud is in an

473
00:30:36,860 --> 00:30:41,940
organization where it's maybe a startup or it's an organization that has a very consistent,

474
00:30:41,940 --> 00:30:45,280
uh, set of technologies they need to bring forward.

475
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,900
And there's a cloud provider that meets that need very strongly, uh, in those situations,

476
00:30:49,900 --> 00:30:54,020
there might be financial incentives from the cloud provider that would make it, uh,

477
00:30:54,060 --> 00:30:57,640
reasonable to, um, focus on one vendor versus the others.

478
00:30:58,160 --> 00:30:58,860
Makes sense.

479
00:30:59,380 --> 00:31:04,400
So, so, uh, somewhat related to that, like, I mean, as, as you're going over, there's a, uh,

480
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:11,220
in a, uh, a mature, usually well-functioning, but sort of like big organization, there's,

481
00:31:11,300 --> 00:31:15,580
there's a whole lot of existing software, maybe even some of your, uh, you know, your

482
00:31:15,580 --> 00:31:17,500
Fox pro stuff from back in the day.

483
00:31:17,700 --> 00:31:21,920
I think there's some file maker things I wrote that might be operating somewhere still, uh,

484
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:26,060
which, which is exciting, which, which didn't Microsoft buy one of those things, Richard,

485
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:27,360
or, or am I missing?

486
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:28,380
They bought Fox pro.

487
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:29,880
I think file maker is still out there.

488
00:31:29,900 --> 00:31:32,120
That's the first thing I was programming in like 98.

489
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,160
I think I haven't checked in a while, but I think, I think file makers into not indirectly,

490
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:41,060
but I think they, Apple owns the company that makes file maker, which is curious.

491
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:42,020
Yeah.

492
00:31:42,140 --> 00:31:49,340
Any, Claris, I think it's called, uh, anyhow, uh, how, like, like, like, I mean, especially

493
00:31:49,340 --> 00:31:54,100
since, you know, in part, part of your background is being in the, uh, the, uh, I don't know,

494
00:31:54,100 --> 00:32:00,380
the, the exciting, uh, Sotterati class of cloud stuff with the wisdoms and the whatnot.

495
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,560
So like what at this, at this, uh, this is like, what is this?

496
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,720
March 4th, uh, 2019.

497
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,960
What's the deal with like bimodal IT as something helpful or not?

498
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:15,000
Cause it seems like, um, there's a lot of stuff to deal with.

499
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:20,820
And if, if, uh, if you're sort of going to apply like awesome DevOps principles to like

500
00:32:20,820 --> 00:32:27,900
your highly customized ERP system, it seems like there's some way that that should be managed

501
00:32:27,900 --> 00:32:28,360
or not.

502
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:33,980
And, and, and, and to close out my, my statements here, you know, the, uh, the, the DevOps people

503
00:32:33,980 --> 00:32:38,540
were all like, you know, bimodal IT is going to destroy you faster than just, you know, lighting

504
00:32:38,540 --> 00:32:41,060
your ship on fire in the middle of the Atlantic.

505
00:32:41,060 --> 00:32:42,140
So you should not do that.

506
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:46,660
But, uh, where, where are we as far as like balancing out in a large organization, how you

507
00:32:46,660 --> 00:32:50,060
should think about your existing portfolio versus your brand new stuff.

508
00:32:51,580 --> 00:32:51,980
Yeah.

509
00:32:52,060 --> 00:32:55,280
I'm not a big fan of the bimodal IT concepts.

510
00:32:55,280 --> 00:33:01,980
And the reason is because it creates an, uh, an unnatural silo between, um, teams that are

511
00:33:01,980 --> 00:33:07,200
working on different technologies that is given the history of silos that we've seen in the

512
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:12,720
enterprise in the past, uh, is going to end up with politics that you don't want.

513
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,920
It's going to end up with bureaucracy that you don't want.

514
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:23,940
It's not, uh, a smart way to go after, uh, improving your organization's, um, ability to

515
00:33:23,940 --> 00:33:25,860
adopt new technologies versus old.

516
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:31,960
I'm, I'm more of a fan for an organization that's mature enough in their culture, um, of

517
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:38,300
of what Simon Worley has talked about, um, with, uh, the pioneer settler town planner model.

518
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,140
So it sounds like it's a three modal thing.

519
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:40,880
What's the difference?

520
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:46,900
But the real difference is because there's an intentionality in that model of, of, of driving

521
00:33:46,900 --> 00:33:52,040
the stealing of technology from say settler stealing from what the pioneers discover and

522
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:58,660
make work to build and scale out new applications that have value and find that value in their

523
00:33:58,660 --> 00:34:01,940
respective market, whether that's an internal market or external market.

524
00:34:01,940 --> 00:34:06,680
And then for town planners to, to take the stuff that really works that the settlers have

525
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:12,200
discovered actually has a market and has a, a need to scale, um, and has a definition to

526
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:17,140
some definition around to it, and then to drive both scale and efficiencies out of that.

527
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:22,460
Um, and so, you know, as, as Simon's been pointing out lately, it takes a fairly mature

528
00:34:22,460 --> 00:34:28,280
organization that has a culture in which technologies can be easily consumed across those boundaries,

529
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,460
um, to drive that, that.

530
00:34:30,460 --> 00:34:34,900
So the first thing I always tell every organization to work on is, you know, you've got to get good

531
00:34:34,900 --> 00:34:38,440
at that cellular structure, um, for doing development.

532
00:34:38,540 --> 00:34:43,800
You've got to get good at that ability of understanding that there, there are owners for pieces of what

533
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:44,300
you do.

534
00:34:44,300 --> 00:34:48,820
And those pieces are going to be codependent in various ways and have to interact with each

535
00:34:48,820 --> 00:34:49,880
other in various ways.

536
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:55,660
So you need to build the culture and the technology, um, but culture first in this case, to really

537
00:34:55,660 --> 00:35:02,100
allow for that, um, that shared operation and that, that treating everybody that is dependent

538
00:35:02,100 --> 00:35:07,820
on your technology as a customer, uh, as opposed to as another team that that's, you know, that's

539
00:35:07,820 --> 00:35:09,620
filing tickets with you.

540
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:15,000
Um, and that transition, that cellular transition allows you to begin to look at which projects

541
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:20,640
kind of need what kind of people and what kind of attitude to, um, to do what they need to

542
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:21,000
do.

543
00:35:21,460 --> 00:35:25,800
And if it's experimentation and heavily trying to figure out whether you can make

544
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,300
something work, you have a pioneer to kind of take it.

545
00:35:28,420 --> 00:35:32,220
If it's, Hey, we've got something here that works, but we need to figure out how to productize it,

546
00:35:32,260 --> 00:35:36,860
how to make it something that's easily consumable and that has a market fit.

547
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:42,680
Um, then you, you get a team of people who are really good at seeing the value in technology

548
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,680
that's been created and figuring out products from that.

549
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:49,500
And then, um, and then, or, or, you know, and there'll be multiple teams of this.

550
00:35:49,540 --> 00:35:53,720
And then if you've got something that's like, man, this thing is really critical to the business.

551
00:35:53,720 --> 00:35:54,780
It's got a scale.

552
00:35:54,780 --> 00:35:59,740
Um, but also we, you know, we need to get the costs, uh, uh, you know, make sure that the

553
00:35:59,740 --> 00:36:02,540
costs are as optimal as possible in running this thing.

554
00:36:02,540 --> 00:36:04,900
And it's not going to go through massive change.

555
00:36:04,900 --> 00:36:09,600
It may, it may get updated regularly, but it's not the form of it won't change significantly.

556
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,360
Then, um, you know, you get people who are really good at driving that.

557
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:18,600
So the people who've been owning data centers for the last, you know, 20 years, probably,

558
00:36:19,220 --> 00:36:21,620
um, a lot of them are really good town planners.

559
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:26,880
They, they, they are focused on driving efficiencies out of the system as opposed to how fast can

560
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,440
we build this up as, you know, as big as we can.

561
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:35,640
Um, and so, uh, that's, that's the model that I see, um, in the longterm is kind of working,

562
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:37,620
but you got to start with that cellular structure.

563
00:36:37,620 --> 00:36:46,280
You don't have the flexibility and the breakdown in bureaucracy that will allow it to be successful

564
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,020
or allow any model to be successful.

565
00:36:48,020 --> 00:36:53,680
Cause as soon as you have those, those lines, hard and fast lines and political lines between

566
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:58,360
different technology groups, they won't interact, um, or they'll try to avoid it.

567
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:03,080
And you'll end up with two pounds or three pounds or four pounds or however many of those

568
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:04,240
boundaries that you have.

569
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:04,920
Yeah.

570
00:37:05,020 --> 00:37:09,820
I, I, I get, you know what the, the, the word I kept, uh, remembering as you're going over

571
00:37:09,820 --> 00:37:11,640
that was just, uh, intentionality.

572
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:12,000
Right.

573
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:17,000
And I think, uh, uh, uh, I don't know, I always joke overly about it, but like, you

574
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,300
know, you should, you should stop doing dumb stuff.

575
00:37:20,140 --> 00:37:26,140
Like, like if, if there's some way of running it that's like not working and, uh, you know,

576
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:31,440
you're the, the, the classic bugbear example is we have this system that was awesome 10 years

577
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:36,620
ago and now it's, it's mission critical, but we have to keep dumping money into it.

578
00:37:36,620 --> 00:37:39,840
And the business doesn't really understand the value of it.

579
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,700
Cause we're completely disconnected and people are grumpy about it.

580
00:37:42,700 --> 00:37:48,200
And, um, you know, there's, there's rather than thinking like, Oh, just let that thing

581
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:48,680
keep running.

582
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:53,440
There are definitely, uh, plenty of, of lessons about how to, uh, run the culture of that,

583
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:55,460
so to speak, so that, uh, things work better.

584
00:37:55,460 --> 00:38:00,780
And then, you know, I also think, uh, you know, there's a certain amount as, as you were

585
00:38:00,780 --> 00:38:05,300
saying of, you're just setting yourself up to have more of these problems in the future.

586
00:38:05,300 --> 00:38:07,400
You're basically avoiding fixing the problem.

587
00:38:07,900 --> 00:38:10,780
Uh, but, but that's a, that's a, that's, that's a good summary of it.

588
00:38:10,820 --> 00:38:14,260
I was thinking, you know, we should do is we should get a transcript of your answer and

589
00:38:14,260 --> 00:38:15,940
use that as a new intersect post.

590
00:38:16,100 --> 00:38:17,980
I think that would, that would be exciting.

591
00:38:18,240 --> 00:38:18,680
There you go.

592
00:38:19,020 --> 00:38:22,840
I think that is what, let me just give it one quick soundbite piece of it too.

593
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:33,020
I personally think that it's harder to decouple development, uh, you know, development innovation.

594
00:38:33,940 --> 00:38:38,720
Uh, I think it's easier to decouple the development innovation from process than it is to decouple

595
00:38:38,720 --> 00:38:39,780
it from politics.

596
00:38:40,780 --> 00:38:41,180
Yeah.

597
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:41,580
Yeah.

598
00:38:41,720 --> 00:38:45,340
Wait, what does politics mean in that con the context of it and all of this?

599
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:51,340
Well, I mean, a lot of this has to do with people's control and, and, and influence within

600
00:38:51,340 --> 00:38:52,500
the organization, right?

601
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:59,700
So, um, organizational structure, um, uh, ownership of major decisions.

602
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:08,280
Um, I, I think very often when you have, uh, uh, you know, it goes back to, um, to, uh,

603
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,660
uh, uh, I can't, Conway's, uh, right.

604
00:39:11,660 --> 00:39:16,720
It goes back to this idea that your software will reflect the, the, the communication, the

605
00:39:16,720 --> 00:39:19,920
communication structure of your software will reflect the communication structure of your

606
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:20,620
organization.

607
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:26,000
Um, when people are still fighting to maintain, uh, an organizational structure that gives them

608
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:32,420
some influence and gives them some foothold to, to move forward, um, very often to me, that's,

609
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:34,200
that is where it gets harder.

610
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:41,640
When somebody says, look, the way I'm going to, um, the way I'm going to, uh, to gain, um,

611
00:39:41,720 --> 00:39:45,500
political influence or the way I'm going to handle my politics is to actually give up some

612
00:39:45,500 --> 00:39:51,460
control to a more cellular thing and allow, you know, allow the success of that, uh, approach

613
00:39:51,460 --> 00:39:55,820
that's been proven over and over again elsewhere to drive my success and make, and going

614
00:39:55,820 --> 00:39:58,220
back to the beginning of the podcast, make me look good.

615
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:00,640
That's going to be my political influence.

616
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:06,720
Um, those, those are the, those are the executives I see being significantly more successful, um,

617
00:40:06,720 --> 00:40:11,160
right now within it, but there's still plenty of people who look at the town planner kind

618
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:15,980
of scenario situations that they own and they say, uh, this is going to stay like this because

619
00:40:15,980 --> 00:40:19,860
it works and because it gives, you know, and because that's my success story.

620
00:40:20,220 --> 00:40:20,620
Yeah.

621
00:40:20,780 --> 00:40:25,400
It reminds me of, uh, the politics part of, I should go back and reread this book now,

622
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,300
but I read this book, uh, the Wolf and CIO's clothing.

623
00:40:28,300 --> 00:40:29,460
You ever, you ever read that one?

624
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:31,860
It's by a, uh, uh, a Gartner analyst.

625
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,260
I don't know how to pronounce her last name, so I will do it.

626
00:40:34,460 --> 00:40:38,960
It's, uh, it's, it's by Tina Nunyo, N-U-N-N-O.

627
00:40:39,060 --> 00:40:44,480
And it's, it's, uh, there, there's the positive version of, of, of her advice and also the

628
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:48,480
negative version or cynical of like how to deal with politics and organizations.

629
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:53,900
And it's basically, as the subtitle says, a Machiavellian strategy for successful IT

630
00:40:53,900 --> 00:40:54,440
leadership.

631
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,560
I was, I was, it'd be fun to get her to come like give some talks, but yeah.

632
00:40:58,780 --> 00:41:01,920
And, and then, and then also just to, to, to free associate.

633
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:08,080
It's interesting that the, as I recall, uh, the, the sort of literal definition of politics

634
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:09,500
is like of the people.

635
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:14,560
Whereas really when we say politics in this context, we mean of the rulers, so to speak.

636
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,560
So it's a, it's a fun, uh, mismatch of it.

637
00:41:17,580 --> 00:41:18,020
We should come up.

638
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:19,980
I don't know if it's, uh, oligarchy X.

639
00:41:20,180 --> 00:41:23,240
I don't know what the, uh, the proper ancient Greek phrasing would be.

640
00:41:24,140 --> 00:41:25,160
Yeah, that's interesting.

641
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:26,020
Nice.

642
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:26,660
Good.

643
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:30,460
Well, I wanted to ask you, James, part of that kind of decoupling teams, I wanted to give

644
00:41:30,460 --> 00:41:33,300
you just a couple minutes, even describe what you've been thinking around a venture of an

645
00:41:33,300 --> 00:41:34,360
architecture and flow.

646
00:41:34,620 --> 00:41:38,740
And so how does that even feed into this model of thinking of IT differently, thinking of how teams

647
00:41:38,740 --> 00:41:39,160
work?

648
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:43,660
Sharing data, you know, in a more real-time fashion instead of the batch processing.

649
00:41:43,660 --> 00:41:48,560
So could you give us a couple minute explanation of what you see as maybe this resurgence event

650
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:52,380
of an architecture and how does it maybe coincide with even some of the org things you just laid

651
00:41:52,380 --> 00:41:52,600
out?

652
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:59,040
Yeah, I think, so what, what drives this is a combination of what serverless is demonstrating

653
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:05,880
in my opinion as being, um, you know, a very quick composable model.

654
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:11,600
I will reserve my opinion on manageable until, um, it's scaled out a little bit in use.

655
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:15,880
Um, but it, it, you know, but technologies are being worked on in terms of management and

656
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:17,780
I think that's a solvable problem.

657
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:25,500
But, um, but basically the idea is that the definition of an application, um, has been changing

658
00:42:25,500 --> 00:42:28,000
significantly from over the last 20 years.

659
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:33,640
If you look at what an application was in the dot-com era and what people would point to that,

660
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:39,600
you know, there's a, a fairly sophisticated, large team effort to bring all the pieces together that

661
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:45,640
would be deployed as a unit, um, to maintain a website, say for a commercial website.

662
00:42:46,180 --> 00:42:51,220
Um, and that was a, you know, that was a pretty big, um, and, and they were all on the same

663
00:42:51,220 --> 00:42:55,560
schedule and all on the same, uh, you know, with the same marching orders, et cetera.

664
00:42:56,300 --> 00:43:01,080
Um, the, the difference now is we've really seen that breakdown, even with microservices

665
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:06,900
and the philosophy behind microservices, we're seeing the breakdown of not only the structure

666
00:43:06,900 --> 00:43:10,700
of the application, but also the organization that supports that application.

667
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:15,600
So in some cases, microservices are sort of, there's many microservices that are part of

668
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:19,360
a development team that maintains a single backlog across those.

669
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:23,520
In other situations, there might be, uh, you know, a small number of developers that maintain

670
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:28,240
a given service, um, with its own backlog per service.

671
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:33,320
Um, but you're beginning to see that breakdown also applies to the front end pieces where,

672
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:38,860
you know, there may be a, an overarching application front end that owns the main URL the customers

673
00:43:38,860 --> 00:43:43,380
go to, but the pieces that build the page are being delivered by different teams on different

674
00:43:43,380 --> 00:43:43,920
schedules.

675
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:49,540
And the, so that's part a is sort of that breakdown into kind of more and more granular pieces.

676
00:43:50,220 --> 00:43:55,120
And the second piece of that then is that, that the event driven nature of what's happened

677
00:43:55,120 --> 00:44:01,180
with AWS Lambda, especially initially has kind of demonstrated this idea that, that services

678
00:44:01,180 --> 00:44:07,360
can push information out about activity, about, um, changes in data.

679
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:13,940
Um, about, you know, anything that, that is relevant to other systems that would want to

680
00:44:13,940 --> 00:44:15,720
know about a change in context.

681
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:21,300
Um, they can post an event that says, Hey, X just happened, you know, an API call just

682
00:44:21,300 --> 00:44:23,220
came in is the, is kind of the obvious one.

683
00:44:23,220 --> 00:44:29,320
But if you look at the events that are available on AWS services that, you know, if, if a, if a,

684
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:33,120
you know, server goes down and needs to be replaced, uh, in a failover scenario,

685
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:38,260
you can have an event that's, that's raised that triggers a Lambda to deal with what you're

686
00:44:38,260 --> 00:44:38,860
going to do on all that.

687
00:44:38,860 --> 00:44:45,420
That event driven nature to me kind of opened an idea of like, there's, we have APIs that

688
00:44:45,420 --> 00:44:51,940
allow for me to, uh, and as, as a consumer of data, initiate a contact and request data

689
00:44:51,940 --> 00:44:54,320
and maybe get that synchronously or asynchronously.

690
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:59,460
But what I really like is to be able to sort of say, Hey, I want to know if X ever happens

691
00:44:59,460 --> 00:45:02,600
and, uh, and I want to be able to try and receive that.

692
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,660
So standard event driven architecture stuff at that point, right?

693
00:45:05,660 --> 00:45:11,720
Um, everything becomes potentially an event, um, and, and you're reacting to what happens

694
00:45:11,720 --> 00:45:12,820
in the system and environment.

695
00:45:12,820 --> 00:45:19,000
And by the way, just as an aside, Forte, um, when I worked back on that 4GL way back in

696
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:24,480
the late nineties had, it's the core of what it was, was in fact, an event loop and everything

697
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:28,980
that happened in the UI and everything that happened generally at the data layer, um, that

698
00:45:28,980 --> 00:45:34,480
would be a push model thing that you would be an initiator of activity, uh, could be done

699
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:38,000
as an event and most often was like everything in the UI was an event for sure.

700
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:40,860
And often we did things at the data layer as events as well.

701
00:45:41,500 --> 00:45:44,860
So, um, so this is a pattern that has some things.

702
00:45:44,860 --> 00:45:49,740
And what got me thinking about flow was, okay, there's this huge flow of events happening

703
00:45:49,740 --> 00:45:53,280
within an organization across all of these smaller and smaller building pieces.

704
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:59,460
And I'm going to explain why that's a good thing in a second, but what happens when those

705
00:45:59,460 --> 00:46:04,100
events now cross organizational boundaries, like go from one company to another, or go from

706
00:46:04,100 --> 00:46:10,580
a government agency to, um, to a regulated business or go, you know, there's a number of different

707
00:46:10,580 --> 00:46:12,040
scenarios you can draw there.

708
00:46:12,500 --> 00:46:18,580
Um, what if there's a standard mechanism by which people can say, Hey, I'm searching for

709
00:46:18,580 --> 00:46:21,060
event types of events I can subscribe to.

710
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:22,880
I'm subscribing to an event.

711
00:46:22,980 --> 00:46:29,140
Maybe I'm paying a fee and subscribing in the sense of, of, uh, of, you know, uh, of a monthly

712
00:46:29,140 --> 00:46:30,580
subscription fee or something like that.

713
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:31,720
Maybe it's free data.

714
00:46:31,720 --> 00:46:35,020
Um, but I, I, I'd like to be, I'd like to receive that signal.

715
00:46:35,020 --> 00:46:40,960
Um, and then, uh, uh, you know, and what would happen then if there becomes a marketplace of

716
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:45,920
events that are out there that would drive the connection of businesses and individuals

717
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:47,220
in unique new ways.

718
00:46:47,220 --> 00:46:53,440
And we've seen early versions of this was if, if this, then that, um, and, and a number of

719
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:57,660
other technologies, which are still fairly, you need to have some technical acumen to use

720
00:46:57,660 --> 00:47:03,780
well, but, um, and in this case, it would be more at a business layer and more driven, uh,

721
00:47:03,780 --> 00:47:08,240
in terms of business events that take place and the ability to do this at scale, um, and,

722
00:47:08,240 --> 00:47:14,680
and do this, uh, uh, with, uh, um, you know, in a way that it's business critical and mission

723
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:15,080
critical.

724
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:22,500
Um, the, um, the, the reason I think all of this is very likely to happen is, is kind of

725
00:47:22,500 --> 00:47:22,980
twofold.

726
00:47:22,980 --> 00:47:30,840
So one is, um, I'm a big believer that, uh, composability will win out over contextual

727
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:32,140
development.

728
00:47:32,140 --> 00:47:36,620
And the difference there is simply if, uh, a contextual system is something that, where

729
00:47:36,620 --> 00:47:41,920
you might have a lot of plugins that go in, but the, but that application, that system defines

730
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:45,740
the process and defines the context in which every executes.

731
00:47:46,300 --> 00:47:50,980
Um, and so, you know, a number of things built over the years, SAP would be a good example.

732
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:57,880
Um, you know, we're, we're really, it's built so that, um, you know, you could affect the

733
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:01,280
actions taken within the course of a process generally.

734
00:48:01,900 --> 00:48:06,740
Um, but the process is predefined and those systems do great while that process is still

735
00:48:06,740 --> 00:48:07,180
critical.

736
00:48:07,180 --> 00:48:12,240
But if you have a situation where say 5% of what you want, you want to do is impossible

737
00:48:12,240 --> 00:48:16,340
to do because of the process, then that system becomes useless in those scenarios.

738
00:48:16,340 --> 00:48:22,620
And that's generally what over time kind of kills those systems that can, the composable

739
00:48:22,620 --> 00:48:27,300
aspect of things is like the Linux command line and all the text processing tools that

740
00:48:27,300 --> 00:48:29,220
are available in the Linux command line, right?

741
00:48:29,260 --> 00:48:34,480
So you can pipe these prebuilt things that do work and then define the work, but you can

742
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,200
pipe them into any process that you want to pipe them into.

743
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:42,620
Um, and that gives you the ability to compose any number of a myriad of millions of different

744
00:48:42,620 --> 00:48:47,140
ways that you would want to be able to process text or, you know, execute other Linux command

745
00:48:47,140 --> 00:48:50,300
lines to take action within the operating system or whatever it may be.

746
00:48:50,300 --> 00:48:57,220
Um, and that incredibly variety has led to people being able to build an amazing, you know, rich

747
00:48:57,220 --> 00:49:02,340
ecosystem of scripts on top of Linux that, you know, really are a big part of why Linux has

748
00:49:02,340 --> 00:49:06,080
incredible value, um, to, to most organizations.

749
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:09,920
So that, that, so that composability piece is a big, big piece of it.

750
00:49:09,980 --> 00:49:17,740
And then secondly, um, I believe very strongly that software business software is being built

751
00:49:17,740 --> 00:49:20,940
and exists to automate our economy over time, right?

752
00:49:20,940 --> 00:49:25,400
So we're automating more and more and more of the economic activity that takes place within

753
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:25,960
industry.

754
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:33,940
And if that's indeed the case, then the ability for one software system to trigger a transaction

755
00:49:33,940 --> 00:49:38,720
in another software system or to react to a transaction that happens in another software

756
00:49:38,720 --> 00:49:45,200
system that becomes really critical because that's how people interact and do, um, uh, do economic

757
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:46,100
activity today.

758
00:49:46,220 --> 00:49:50,400
So you need to, you know, you need to see that there's something available for you to consume.

759
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:57,320
You need to be able to, uh, initiate a transaction to find out more about, uh, comparative elements

760
00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:58,480
that you might want to consume.

761
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:03,000
You need to be able to initiate an activity to actually purchase and consume.

762
00:50:03,220 --> 00:50:07,780
You need to be able to initiate an activity to schedule an appointment, et cetera, et cetera,

763
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:08,520
et cetera, right?

764
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:13,000
There's, um, there's a lot of things where, where things are kind of driven one way.

765
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:17,820
And some of those work well with APIs, but others to me are things that need to be proactively

766
00:50:17,820 --> 00:50:20,580
driven from a software system, not from a human being.

767
00:50:21,300 --> 00:50:27,000
Um, and so I believe those things are going to eventually make this idea of event flow across

768
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:29,760
organizational boundaries, um, grow.

769
00:50:29,860 --> 00:50:32,840
And one last thing I want to say very quickly about it is it's not just events.

770
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:37,520
Cause every time I talk about this, the IOT folks that I know say, um, events are really

771
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:38,680
large grain thing.

772
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:43,180
In many use cases, you actually want to be able to process the raw data stream cause you

773
00:50:43,180 --> 00:50:46,580
can get to patterns and pattern discovery faster that way.

774
00:50:47,240 --> 00:50:49,480
And so it's actually a combination today.

775
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:53,760
I look at flows, a combination of events, which are discrete activities that have occurred

776
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:58,760
and, uh, real-time data flows is just raw data being fed from some source.

777
00:51:00,300 --> 00:51:05,060
That's a lot to think about, but that, you know, it, it, it makes me think, I mean, at, at

778
00:51:05,060 --> 00:51:10,580
a, uh, as you were starting with at a low level, there's sort of the, um, there's basically

779
00:51:10,580 --> 00:51:17,380
the, the, the waiting around to see an event happen in, in a, uh, a GUI app, which if you

780
00:51:17,380 --> 00:51:22,380
sort of, uh, as, as you were kind of doing, extend that to the enterprise as a whole, there's,

781
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:24,820
uh, there's a lot of nice, nice stuff about that model.

782
00:51:24,820 --> 00:51:30,240
And you got to remove the GUI part cause that's kind of GUI as it were, but, uh, it's,

783
00:51:30,240 --> 00:51:35,460
it's a, it's a more decoupled like way of having your architecture set up so that hopefully,

784
00:51:35,460 --> 00:51:40,940
uh, you can more rapidly add new features and therefore different ways that you're operating.

785
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:44,440
But yeah, the, uh, the event loop, that's good stuff.

786
00:51:45,100 --> 00:51:46,420
That's a, it's critical.

787
00:51:46,420 --> 00:51:50,580
And I think what's interesting is, you know, a lot of what, if you really kind of dig back

788
00:51:50,580 --> 00:51:56,420
into what software has been applied where in business, a lot of it is to eliminate clerks

789
00:51:56,420 --> 00:52:00,120
in the system and clerks to me are people who take a ticket off the top.

790
00:52:00,180 --> 00:52:04,820
Of the queue or a job off the top of the list, do that activity, whatever it is that needs

791
00:52:04,820 --> 00:52:07,780
to be done and pass it on to the next thing down the line in the process.

792
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:08,040
Right.

793
00:52:08,260 --> 00:52:08,320
Yeah.

794
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:08,440
Yeah.

795
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:12,080
Like the workflow of dealing with a, with an event basically.

796
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:13,180
Right.

797
00:52:13,260 --> 00:52:18,040
So, you know, and, and we see even, you know, even bank tellers, the demand for bank tellers

798
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:21,820
dropping because there's more and more, uh, we're doing more and more things through software

799
00:52:21,820 --> 00:52:26,460
to bypass the need for, for a person that that's a customer facing clerk.

800
00:52:26,460 --> 00:52:26,820
Right.

801
00:52:27,460 --> 00:52:32,800
Um, and so that's, that's part of the evidence that I present to sort of say, you know, I,

802
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:38,300
I believe what, you know, I believe what's happening here is that we will see more direct

803
00:52:38,300 --> 00:52:43,560
interchange between enterprises, between, uh, you know, cell phones and enterprises between

804
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:43,960
whatever.

805
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:48,560
And that will be, uh, driven, uh, more by an event model over time.

806
00:52:48,700 --> 00:52:52,860
And as that becomes open and easily consumable and everything, it becomes more and more like

807
00:52:52,860 --> 00:52:54,900
what HTTP did for information linking.

808
00:52:55,800 --> 00:53:01,840
Um, it becomes a way of doing activity linking, uh, across any number of different boundaries.

809
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:02,520
Hmm.

810
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:02,620
Yeah.

811
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:06,620
It's like the, uh, like speaking of clerks, it's like, uh, it's like that old black and

812
00:53:06,620 --> 00:53:10,920
white picture of, of a bunch of people going off into the horizon of a, of a building sitting

813
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:15,800
at a desk and, you know, the joke being like, oh, look, this is a spreadsheet of, of all these

814
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:19,460
people, uh, well, uh, thanks for being on.

815
00:53:19,540 --> 00:53:21,180
This is a great overview of things.

816
00:53:21,180 --> 00:53:26,580
And also, uh, I've got some homework to figure out product names, uh, correctly and, uh, look

817
00:53:26,580 --> 00:53:27,060
that up.

818
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:29,040
I'll get, like I said, I'll get some flashcards.

819
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:30,940
We'll maybe I'll get quiz next time.

820
00:53:31,220 --> 00:53:33,680
Although I was always a solid, uh, B student.

821
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:36,060
So I think the results will be predictable.

822
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:40,780
Uh, well, if you want to, uh, follow up with you or, or, uh, just kind of see what else

823
00:53:40,780 --> 00:53:44,520
you're up to, you had a, you had a Twitter account somewhere, I guess it would be on Twitter.

824
00:53:45,240 --> 00:53:45,880
Really simple.

825
00:53:45,980 --> 00:53:50,780
It's my full name, James Urkert, uh, at James Urkert on Twitter.

826
00:53:50,980 --> 00:53:52,700
I'm, I'm most active there.

827
00:53:53,460 --> 00:53:58,900
Um, and, uh, also, uh, just Jay Urkert at pivotal.io.

828
00:53:58,900 --> 00:54:04,840
If you'd like to reach me by email and, uh, happy to talk to whoever and, and, uh, debate,

829
00:54:05,100 --> 00:54:10,180
um, whatever, but I appreciate you guys letting me, uh, ramble on about flow a little bit,

830
00:54:10,180 --> 00:54:13,780
but, uh, uh, it's been really fun to be on this podcast.

831
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:14,500
I appreciate it.

832
00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:15,640
Well, it is nice to be on.

833
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:19,560
Well, uh, as a reminder, if you haven't checked out the SpringOne tours, you should go check

834
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:21,460
that out, especially the London one coming up.

835
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:23,660
Uh, it'll be enjoyable.

836
00:54:23,940 --> 00:54:26,280
And, uh, with that, we'll see everyone next time.

837
00:54:26,380 --> 00:54:26,980
Bye-bye.