1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,340 Yesterday and today here in Amsterdam, there's been a rare occurrence, and that is the sun. 2 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:10,220 I was sitting here at my desk and my wife said, oh, look, the sun's out. 3 00:00:10,260 --> 00:00:12,360 And I was a little confused about what she was talking about. 4 00:00:12,380 --> 00:00:15,400 And I looked up and sure enough, there it was, the sun. 5 00:00:15,460 --> 00:00:16,580 And I can kind of see it now. 6 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:20,580 It's still obscured by clouds, but I have a feeling it's going to be there. 7 00:00:21,060 --> 00:00:22,360 It might not be cloud covered. 8 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:29,280 So Richard and guest, if you have any tips, can you give me some tips on avoiding being 9 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:30,880 depressed about not seeing the sun? 10 00:00:31,220 --> 00:00:32,020 Do I need lamps? 11 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:33,180 What do I do? 12 00:00:34,380 --> 00:00:38,100 Yeah, I mean, sheesh, I live in Seattle now, so I feel for you. 13 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:40,220 It's actually been a really nice winter here, though. 14 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:42,160 We've actually had the sun out a few days, like this week. 15 00:00:42,220 --> 00:00:44,540 It's like 40 and cold, but bright and sunny. 16 00:00:44,820 --> 00:00:49,280 So yeah, the one thing they do up here, I don't know if they do in Amsterdam, is they give all 17 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:52,940 the kids here a midwinter break, which what the heck is that? 18 00:00:53,020 --> 00:00:56,280 But it's a week off in February to go get some sun, so you actually get some vitamin D. 19 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,760 So I don't know if they're, do they try to kick you out of Amsterdam to get some sun? 20 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:08,420 Yeah, there is like this break between, in February, it's like the pre-spring break. 21 00:01:09,060 --> 00:01:11,660 I don't know what you would call that, midwinter break. 22 00:01:11,980 --> 00:01:13,020 How about yourself, guest? 23 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,800 Do you have any tips for coping with the sun or without the sun? 24 00:01:18,860 --> 00:01:25,400 Yeah, actually, don't judge me, but I moved from Tampa, Florida, to Boston, which is quite 25 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:25,880 a change. 26 00:01:26,180 --> 00:01:31,180 So I actually started going to tanning beds, not because I'm vain and I want to look good 27 00:01:31,180 --> 00:01:33,600 in a bathing suit, but it actually helps. 28 00:01:33,820 --> 00:01:36,700 So like twice a week during the wintertime, I'll go to tanning beds. 29 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:37,560 That's interesting. 30 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:40,680 And then it has that intended side effect, I guess, of looking good. 31 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:42,540 Just, you know, unintentional. 32 00:01:42,620 --> 00:01:43,220 Just in case. 33 00:01:43,940 --> 00:01:51,340 For the famous Boston swimsuit scene, when you're hanging out on the docks? 34 00:01:51,660 --> 00:01:52,800 I don't even know what you would do. 35 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:56,360 All right. 36 00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:00,420 Well, you want to give yourself more of an introduction, guest? 37 00:02:01,900 --> 00:02:09,140 Yeah, Captain Brian Kroger, I'm an active duty Air Force officer, started out in intelligence, 38 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:11,260 did that for about seven years. 39 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,520 And then I was tired of my software not working for me. 40 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:21,120 I applied for a career change, became an acquisitions officer and started working on software projects. 41 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,080 Now, what's acquisitions officer mean? 42 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:33,520 Yeah, so we approach our building software the same way that we do building ships, planes 43 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:39,200 and tanks, which is going out and acquiring them through massive muscle movements that involve 44 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:40,480 the acts of Congress to get a budget. 45 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,280 So that entire process is called the defense acquisition system. 46 00:02:44,900 --> 00:02:47,660 And it's pretty, pretty extensive. 47 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,880 And they train officers for their whole careers to be able to navigate that system. 48 00:02:52,500 --> 00:02:52,680 I see. 49 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:56,060 So it's like the whole panoply of like buying software. 50 00:02:56,500 --> 00:03:02,400 And I assume also buying people who would make software for you, buying contractors. 51 00:03:02,740 --> 00:03:08,100 Well, not, you don't buy the contractors, but dealing with all that from, I'm guessing, 52 00:03:08,100 --> 00:03:14,040 figuring out what you want, how to specify it, figuring out who the people you would talk 53 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:18,160 with, evaluating what they have to offer, and then procurement as well, like paying for 54 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:18,340 it. 55 00:03:19,220 --> 00:03:19,580 Yes. 56 00:03:19,980 --> 00:03:20,340 All right. 57 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:24,660 Well, we'll, we'll have to, we'll have to come back to that, give you some time to figure 58 00:03:24,660 --> 00:03:29,340 out what docs you would go to in Boston for your new, but first there's a little bit 59 00:03:29,340 --> 00:03:29,600 of news. 60 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:35,240 So I think, I don't think we've talked until, and not until, talk since the beginning of 61 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:40,320 December and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we had a Pivotal Cloud Foundry release 62 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:42,140 2.4 in the meantime, right? 63 00:03:42,820 --> 00:03:43,260 We did. 64 00:03:43,380 --> 00:03:44,040 We stopped the press. 65 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:46,020 Yeah, it was a fifth release in 12 months. 66 00:03:46,380 --> 00:03:48,080 That was good to see that come out. 67 00:03:48,140 --> 00:03:52,440 Big highlights just mainly on app deployment, things like no downtime app deployment and 68 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:57,940 simplified stack updates and updating Ubuntu and all these kind of fun things as well. 69 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:02,660 And then, you know, the usual catalog of features that show up in that post about, you know, individual 70 00:04:02,660 --> 00:04:03,560 things that pop up. 71 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:05,140 But there's a lot of, how are you updating the platform? 72 00:04:05,300 --> 00:04:06,300 How are you updating apps? 73 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:07,400 How are you staying secure? 74 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:12,000 And how are you not impacting applications when you make things like network changes? 75 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:14,200 So all those things are part of PCF 2.4. 76 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:14,980 That's right. 77 00:04:15,060 --> 00:04:19,720 And as usual, Jared and friends have a comprehensive Roundup blog post on it. 78 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:20,640 We'll put a link to it. 79 00:04:20,740 --> 00:04:21,380 It's very exciting. 80 00:04:21,500 --> 00:04:21,720 No doubt. 81 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:26,420 Now, also, I, there's a couple of other like broad industry things and then some little 82 00:04:26,420 --> 00:04:27,160 things here and there. 83 00:04:27,220 --> 00:04:32,680 I think, uh, there's, there's been some like licensing changes that, uh, open source software 84 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,940 companies have done to, uh, I don't know, cope with a public cloud world more. 85 00:04:37,220 --> 00:04:40,860 And, uh, there's been a couple of interesting posts about like how that's, I don't know. 86 00:04:41,460 --> 00:04:45,080 I don't, I don't know if people are being judge mill or not, or if it's just the peanut 87 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:49,240 gallery that's forcing that perspective, but there's, you know, discussion of that. 88 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:54,680 And I think our very own, uh, Andrew Clay Schaefer, or it looks like Drew Schaefer as 89 00:04:54,680 --> 00:05:00,760 he might, you know, he's always trying to do some of that, uh, culture jamming, I think 90 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:02,300 is what the kids are calling it nowadays. 91 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:08,080 Uh, but he has a nice post that, uh, in, in his succinct way kind of summarizes of like, 92 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,620 uh, you know, these aren't the droids you're looking for that there's, there's more important 93 00:05:11,620 --> 00:05:12,400 things to worry about. 94 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:16,320 And then community doesn't matter if it's open or whatever, there's just a community of 95 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:17,140 use around things. 96 00:05:17,260 --> 00:05:20,620 And there's plenty of other, uh, there's some other good, uh, roundups that we'll link 97 00:05:20,620 --> 00:05:26,600 to about, uh, I mean, I guess essentially like the big scary thing for, for the community, 98 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:34,320 whatever that may be is, uh, so our public cloud providers, namely Amazon going to come 99 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:40,780 in and, um, I forget the like economic cultural term for this, but like basically coast off other 100 00:05:40,780 --> 00:05:46,820 people's work and, and then it's, yeah, I'm deplete the commercial, uh, viability of the 101 00:05:46,820 --> 00:05:48,140 companies doing these things. 102 00:05:48,860 --> 00:05:49,220 Right. 103 00:05:49,340 --> 00:05:51,880 The term I see that I, for some reason I like is strip mining. 104 00:05:52,340 --> 00:05:53,060 Strip mining. 105 00:05:53,420 --> 00:05:53,620 Yes. 106 00:05:53,780 --> 00:05:53,960 Yeah. 107 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:59,160 So the cloud strip mining open source by simply taking those products, selling them as a service, 108 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,020 making a lot of money on them and putting nothing back into the project. 109 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:02,480 Yes. 110 00:06:02,500 --> 00:06:06,680 Does that more or less destroy the viability of that thing in any other fashion is the question 111 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,480 for things like Redis and Kafka and MongoDB. 112 00:06:09,980 --> 00:06:14,580 The other things that have popped up is, you know, has that changed the kind of dynamics 113 00:06:14,580 --> 00:06:17,480 of these things when someone can offer that massive scale as a service? 114 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:21,560 How can that other company that maybe spends all their time making it for everyone else 115 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:22,640 actually monetize it? 116 00:06:23,020 --> 00:06:27,960 So, I mean, that's the interesting debate is it has that change and, and Schaefer's posts 117 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:30,820 call that well, that, you know, open source is not a business model. 118 00:06:30,900 --> 00:06:36,320 Like that's, it's a way you might do part of the software you're selling, but by itself, 119 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:38,200 there is no open source sort of business model. 120 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:42,360 But what does it mean when these companies that are changing their license to, you know, 121 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,760 specifically discourage cloud providers from selling their stuff? 122 00:06:45,840 --> 00:06:50,300 So in the case of Mongo and Redis and, and Kafka, so at our confluence. 123 00:06:50,500 --> 00:06:53,440 So it's, but yeah, it's interesting to see this, this sort of bubbling up tension. 124 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:57,820 And that's what kind of bubbled up recently, even with Amazon's new database, which is Mongo 125 00:06:57,820 --> 00:07:00,100 and, but doesn't run any Mongo software. 126 00:07:00,380 --> 00:07:02,900 So it really just tries to fake it. 127 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:07,680 And so at Microsoft does it too, but it's just, it's like, it's trying to suck in those 128 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:08,160 workloads. 129 00:07:08,460 --> 00:07:11,220 Get you off an existing Mongo, even though it doesn't run Mongo itself. 130 00:07:11,220 --> 00:07:13,740 So kind of what does that do to projects like that? 131 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:17,860 We're just in this weird zone right now, which is, I guess, good for consumers because they 132 00:07:17,860 --> 00:07:22,180 have all these great options, but weird for people who might be building the software that 133 00:07:22,180 --> 00:07:23,200 they can't make any money off of. 134 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:25,020 Yeah, definitely true. 135 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:27,740 Well, uh, also there's, I'll put a link to it. 136 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:33,860 There's a, I was on a new stack or I'm sorry, the new stack podcast with, uh, with, with 137 00:07:33,860 --> 00:07:38,180 Rachel from red monk and, uh, and a couple of the new stack people, uh, kind of 138 00:07:38,180 --> 00:07:43,020 going over like, I guess, coincidentally or, or relative, like, uh, kind of how open source 139 00:07:43,020 --> 00:07:43,860 was last year. 140 00:07:43,860 --> 00:07:50,000 And, uh, and, and, and I, I, in a very, in a very disciplined way, even made myself say 141 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:51,860 some nice things about IBM and red hat. 142 00:07:51,860 --> 00:07:55,380 So you can, you can, uh, go put my thing to the fire for that. 143 00:07:55,760 --> 00:08:01,960 Anyways, uh, not, not you, the theoretic one, I guess, but are there any other items that, 144 00:08:01,980 --> 00:08:04,700 uh, caught your fancy since last time? 145 00:08:05,700 --> 00:08:10,660 Uh, no, my fancy is pretty easily caught, but the, uh, one I threw on here was, uh, you 146 00:08:10,660 --> 00:08:13,820 know, Hey, GitHub offering private repos for everybody is interesting. 147 00:08:13,820 --> 00:08:16,500 That was always something they held back to people who were paying customers. 148 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:20,280 So just, you know, if you were worried that being acquired by Microsoft was going to turn 149 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,900 them maybe more evil or something, it seems like they're giving more stuff away, which 150 00:08:23,900 --> 00:08:26,440 that can't be, that's gotta be good news. 151 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:28,980 There's no nefarious thing that's going to happen a year now. 152 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:30,580 Everyone should just plow all their repos. 153 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:36,620 I think, I think, I think, I think as a belated prediction, I think 2019 is, is the year that 154 00:08:36,620 --> 00:08:41,080 we stopped, uh, what's, what's the word that we stopped saying, uh, Oh, it's not your dad's 155 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:41,700 Microsoft. 156 00:08:42,260 --> 00:08:44,240 Everyone's just like, yep, they're fine. 157 00:08:44,860 --> 00:08:45,320 They're fine. 158 00:08:45,420 --> 00:08:48,060 No more dollar sign for the S it's all you can't do anymore. 159 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:50,020 There's, there's no more footnote required. 160 00:08:50,020 --> 00:08:52,780 If you're some sort of like a software industry hipster. 161 00:08:52,780 --> 00:08:56,380 And if you say like, you actually like Microsoft, you don't have to have a footnote that says, 162 00:08:56,460 --> 00:08:58,600 I know that we all used to hate them. 163 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:00,540 Like, it's just, it's totally cool. 164 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:02,480 No, no more disclaiming needed. 165 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:08,560 Well, uh, so guest, I remember, I think, uh, you've, you've given a couple of talks 166 00:09:08,560 --> 00:09:10,520 in the, uh, I don't know, okay. 167 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:15,460 It's SpringOne platform and I think CF summit and, and, uh, all sorts of people, how, how, 168 00:09:15,460 --> 00:09:20,540 uh, the, you know, the team you've worked on the, the broader area of stuff, uh, people 169 00:09:20,540 --> 00:09:26,360 has basically, uh, I don't know, you've got a set of software in the, uh, the air operations 170 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:26,840 command. 171 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,180 And like you were saying, uh, you want a better software. 172 00:09:30,180 --> 00:09:35,220 Maybe that was in a different domain, but I think over the course of the last couple 173 00:09:35,220 --> 00:09:42,460 of years, if I remember y'all have, uh, changed over, I would say dramatically the, the way 174 00:09:42,460 --> 00:09:46,620 that software is created, uh, in the U S air force. 175 00:09:46,620 --> 00:09:51,260 But I could, I could, as I've done many times, I could summarize your story a lot, but why 176 00:09:51,260 --> 00:09:55,620 don't you, why don't you give us, uh, your kind of like take on a, on a brief version of 177 00:09:55,620 --> 00:10:00,920 what that, what that story of, uh, pardon the word use of the phrase transformation is. 178 00:10:02,580 --> 00:10:03,580 It's a good term. 179 00:10:03,580 --> 00:10:09,320 Uh, so, I mean, our story gets told a lot in the news, um, as kind of the serendipitous 180 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:15,020 moment where there's like Eric Schmidt out in Qatar of all places, he sees the tanker whiteboard 181 00:10:15,020 --> 00:10:17,140 says, this is the craziest thing I've ever seen. 182 00:10:17,140 --> 00:10:20,120 Uh, and then all of a sudden people start building really great software. 183 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:25,340 Um, there's a ton of contributions that had to come together to make this happen. 184 00:10:25,460 --> 00:10:30,520 Kessel Run isn't building apps as much as reforming the, uh, the air force acquisition system that 185 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:31,180 I mentioned before. 186 00:10:31,460 --> 00:10:31,740 Yeah. 187 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,920 So I'll tell them my, my side of that story, uh, which is very different. 188 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:37,820 It starts way before that tanker planner project. 189 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:42,940 I was actually a targeteer, uh, and I spent most of my time doing collateral damage estimation, 190 00:10:42,940 --> 00:10:44,240 uh, in theater. 191 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:51,320 So Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, uh, and I had, uh, it's just crazy. 192 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:55,440 If you could see how these things are done where we're tracking fast moving targets going, 193 00:10:55,560 --> 00:10:56,940 you know, 60 miles an hour down a road. 194 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:02,700 Um, and I've got out an Excel spreadsheet to calculate ground speed of a moving target and 195 00:11:02,700 --> 00:11:07,240 project where it's going to be during the weapon time of flight and then predict at that point 196 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:11,420 of impact, uh, making sure that there's no collateral damage. 197 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:15,760 Um, and it was just wild to me to see that and incredibly frustrating. 198 00:11:16,100 --> 00:11:23,180 Everything that I just mentioned about that entire process is really simple math, uh, that 199 00:11:23,180 --> 00:11:27,520 can be performed using just the metadata coming in off of the sensors from those aircraft. 200 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:34,020 Hey, I wanted to jump in here and tell you about our, uh, SpringOne tour series of little 201 00:11:34,020 --> 00:11:35,680 conferences we have going on this year. 202 00:11:35,860 --> 00:11:38,040 Now I'm not going to rattle off all the dates that we have. 203 00:11:38,100 --> 00:11:42,680 If you really want to check out the cities and the dates, go to SpringOne tour.io, but 204 00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:46,460 at the end of this month in January, we'll be in Charlotte, then there's St. Louis, Washington, 205 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:52,340 DC, Columbus, London, Amsterdam, Johannesburg, Cape town, Istanbul, Paris, San Francisco, 206 00:11:52,340 --> 00:11:52,920 and Atlanta. 207 00:11:53,100 --> 00:11:54,820 And that those run all the way through June. 208 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:59,400 Now these are two day, uh, many conferences, people like myself come to give a talk. 209 00:11:59,460 --> 00:12:03,540 And then there's a tremendous amount as the name would imply about software development 210 00:12:03,540 --> 00:12:08,220 with spring, various programming things, doing things like reactive and architecture, but 211 00:12:08,220 --> 00:12:12,840 also you'll learn about, uh, Kubernetes and pivotal cloud foundry and all those other 212 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:13,200 things. 213 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:18,260 So if you're interested in that, uh, go over to SpringOne tour.io and, uh, check out the 214 00:12:18,260 --> 00:12:20,100 dates and the cities, sign up for it. 215 00:12:20,100 --> 00:12:21,420 And hopefully I'll see you there. 216 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:26,220 So let's go back to Brian where he, uh, picks up talking about the first day he, uh, moved 217 00:12:26,220 --> 00:12:30,240 over to being, uh, working in acquisitions and how he started sorting through improving 218 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:31,720 software at the air force. 219 00:12:31,940 --> 00:12:36,440 Um, I showed up at, uh, Hanscom air force base as a new acquisitions officer. 220 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,680 And the first thing I did was called DIUX, uh, who hadn't quite started that, uh, tanker 221 00:12:40,680 --> 00:12:41,420 planner project. 222 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:46,420 And so we started talking about all the things we would need to do, uh, not just to, to build 223 00:12:46,420 --> 00:12:47,600 apps a different way. 224 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:52,840 Uh, but how can we get after the budgeting process, uh, which is literally an act of Congress, 225 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:58,020 uh, to get a budget, uh, all the way down to, you know, you're, you finish your application. 226 00:12:58,020 --> 00:12:59,820 How do you get it out in the field today? 227 00:12:59,820 --> 00:13:04,440 If you anywhere else in the air force, you build an application, you have to go through 228 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:05,280 developmental testing. 229 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:09,340 It's going to take you about a year operational testing, take you another year, uh, getting 230 00:13:09,340 --> 00:13:12,920 your authority to operate from a cybersecurity perspective, probably another year. 231 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:17,060 Some of it can be done in parallel, but you're looking at a two to three year lead time after 232 00:13:17,060 --> 00:13:18,060 you're done with development. 233 00:13:18,380 --> 00:13:18,480 Yeah. 234 00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:23,260 Uh, and then, and then most of our fielding is manual because we don't have any infrastructure 235 00:13:23,260 --> 00:13:24,940 cloud-based infrastructure, right? 236 00:13:25,020 --> 00:13:29,460 So we're shipping CDs and fielding teams out to every site in remote locations. 237 00:13:29,740 --> 00:13:35,260 So fielding an AOC weapon system, for instance, uh, the one you mentioned that takes a three 238 00:13:35,260 --> 00:13:36,620 years to get through all the sites. 239 00:13:37,940 --> 00:13:38,300 Yeah. 240 00:13:38,380 --> 00:13:42,560 And I remember if I remember the timelines that, uh, y'all have gone over, I mean, you're, 241 00:13:42,680 --> 00:13:45,680 you're talking from, from, um, what would you call it? 242 00:13:45,680 --> 00:13:52,220 The lead time to, to use the, the, like lean, lean, uh, lean terms for like the full cycle 243 00:13:52,220 --> 00:13:57,540 from idea to, uh, someone using it is like, I don't know, like, isn't it like eight or 244 00:13:57,540 --> 00:14:02,340 10 years or something like to thinking about something and then, you know, specifying it, coding 245 00:14:02,340 --> 00:14:03,320 it, testing it. 246 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:05,580 And then of course you have to get budget for it as well. 247 00:14:05,580 --> 00:14:08,000 And then, uh, verifying and then fielding it, right. 248 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:09,980 Like can be, uh, pretty long. 249 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:11,200 Yes. 250 00:14:11,340 --> 00:14:14,020 That's for the air operations center specifically, but yes. 251 00:14:14,460 --> 00:14:18,400 So, and so Kessel Run then, uh, you know, we addressed all of those things. 252 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:22,560 And, uh, that's the often untold part of the story is it's not fun stuff to talk about 253 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:27,240 is, uh, uh, you know, how do you go about the budgeting process, the contracting process? 254 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:31,580 Uh, there's a lot of air force bureaucracy all the way up to congressional bureaucracy tied 255 00:14:31,580 --> 00:14:31,880 in there. 256 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,920 But I mean, at the end of the day, what we were able to do is pretty incredible. 257 00:14:35,220 --> 00:14:37,680 So, uh, we're up to 18 application teams. 258 00:14:37,820 --> 00:14:40,260 Now, um, we still can't ship on day one. 259 00:14:40,340 --> 00:14:43,260 That's one of my goals, uh, before my time is up here. 260 00:14:43,780 --> 00:14:47,240 Um, we have some initial hurdles we have to get through, but usually we can deploy an 261 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:52,440 application, you know, whiteboard to deploy it into our operational environment, which is 262 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,040 on a classified network, by the way, a secret network. 263 00:14:55,660 --> 00:14:58,620 Um, we can do that on average of 120 days. 264 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,600 And then after that we can establish continuous delivery. 265 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:06,660 So, uh, usually most teams are on a one week or a two week, uh, deployment frequency, uh, 266 00:15:06,660 --> 00:15:07,520 usually up to them. 267 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:12,700 Um, but we have teams, you know, we'll go through, uh, you know, high period times where we're 268 00:15:12,700 --> 00:15:14,020 pushing two or three times a day. 269 00:15:14,420 --> 00:15:16,760 So, uh, quite a change. 270 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:17,140 Yeah. 271 00:15:17,220 --> 00:15:17,680 That's it. 272 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:21,200 That's a figure I didn't, if it didn't, I kind of was guessing at, but didn't know that 273 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,980 like, cause you hear the sort of, um, what would you call it? 274 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:28,540 There's a lot of, of dates with stories like yourself of how long it took us for that initial 275 00:15:28,540 --> 00:15:28,980 version. 276 00:15:29,460 --> 00:15:33,080 But, uh, it's always interesting to hear then that sets you up for like, you're saying a 277 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,080 one or two, uh, uh, cadence after that. 278 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:41,100 So, so that like, like to go back just a little bit, I'm always, I always try to be a little 279 00:15:41,100 --> 00:15:44,820 sympathetic to, uh, the current, uh, enemy of a story. 280 00:15:45,460 --> 00:15:45,860 Yeah. 281 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,320 I guess cause I've seen lots of star Wars movies. 282 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,440 So you figure at one point they were fine. 283 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,960 Uh, but like, why is the process like that? 284 00:15:55,040 --> 00:16:01,140 Like at some point that was probably helpful to have like such a long cycle, I guess. 285 00:16:01,140 --> 00:16:04,960 And sometimes maybe it is still helpful, but like, how did, how did that come about that 286 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:05,740 it took so long? 287 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:13,160 Yeah, I, I think the, you know, these things grow over time, but the intent is right. 288 00:16:13,260 --> 00:16:17,700 And in fact, I wouldn't advocate doing what we do in most of the systems that are being 289 00:16:17,700 --> 00:16:19,620 built in the air force right now, the way they're being built. 290 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:22,260 Um, it just goes back to your classic waterfall. 291 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:28,000 If you're going to deliver everything at once, uh, that's your only option and everything has 292 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:29,040 to work together. 293 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:35,640 You have to do a lot of your risk mitigation before you deploy, uh, where, you know, today 294 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,220 you can do a lot of your risk mitigation and products, right? 295 00:16:38,220 --> 00:16:42,220 If my things don't work together, when I deploy them together, I make a change and redeploy and 296 00:16:42,220 --> 00:16:43,360 it takes me a few seconds. 297 00:16:43,500 --> 00:16:44,820 It was a low risk activity. 298 00:16:44,820 --> 00:16:49,020 But if you look at the system I'm talking about, if it takes three years for a fielding 299 00:16:49,020 --> 00:16:54,040 team to go around the globe with discs, uh, if you get it wrong, uh, you have to start 300 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:57,880 over at minimum, just a three-year fielding cycle for everybody to go refield up things. 301 00:16:58,340 --> 00:17:00,740 So, uh, I think it's actually appropriate. 302 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:01,500 I'm glad you said that. 303 00:17:01,500 --> 00:17:07,440 I think one of the keys, at least me personally, uh, successfully being able to champion this 304 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:11,340 across the air force is, is not making them the enemy and really empathizing. 305 00:17:11,540 --> 00:17:15,700 And I often say if I were in your shoes, I would do this the exact same way, especially 306 00:17:15,700 --> 00:17:16,420 the testers. 307 00:17:16,420 --> 00:17:19,700 When I go talk to the test community, I'm like, you're absolutely right. 308 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:21,300 You should test the way that you do. 309 00:17:21,300 --> 00:17:26,140 And given the track record that these offices have of delivering software to you, that doesn't 310 00:17:26,140 --> 00:17:26,420 work. 311 00:17:26,940 --> 00:17:31,000 Um, I think what you do is absolutely appropriate, but let's talk about how we can do it differently 312 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,220 now, uh, given the, the changing environment. 313 00:17:34,740 --> 00:17:34,820 Yeah. 314 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,860 I mean, you hit up on two things or, or so far there's, there's two things, uh, sort 315 00:17:38,860 --> 00:17:44,000 of on the whiteboard of, of topics that I think of like, what there's two things. 316 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,940 The first thing that most, whenever I talk to, whether it's military or government people, 317 00:17:47,940 --> 00:17:54,740 I think, uh, I don't know, their procurement cycle is, is like their number one issue, right? 318 00:17:55,140 --> 00:18:00,260 Uh, basically just like, how do I deal with existing contracts that I have and, uh, just speed 319 00:18:00,260 --> 00:18:04,920 things, speed is the wrong word, but how do I make it easier to do things more frequently 320 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:09,180 or to, to work on a different cadence than a big upfront design and things like that. 321 00:18:09,180 --> 00:18:14,580 And then, and then associated with that is, I think, I think in government work, they're 322 00:18:14,580 --> 00:18:19,300 the people who most frequently ask me, when is waterfall good? 323 00:18:19,860 --> 00:18:25,120 Like, like, like very, very few other types of industries ask me that question, but like, 324 00:18:25,120 --> 00:18:27,460 it comes up pretty much every time in government work. 325 00:18:27,460 --> 00:18:33,160 And I think, you know, I don't know, I don't know if the forest service has the same concerns, 326 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:37,880 for example, but there's definitely like, there definitely are more areas. 327 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:43,300 It feels like in government and military areas where it's kind of okay to take the time to 328 00:18:43,300 --> 00:18:48,600 make sure stuff works really well versus, I don't know, insurance, they're probably cool. 329 00:18:49,740 --> 00:18:55,040 Well, I, I actually, I'm a huge proponent that, that everybody should do this. 330 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:59,580 I think my caveat is, uh, you have to go full agile. 331 00:18:59,960 --> 00:19:05,840 Um, but really like you, you, you can't, you can't do some, you know, the classic water 332 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:09,840 scrum fall, um, that ends really poorly in DOD. 333 00:19:10,340 --> 00:19:16,280 Um, because the, you know, I don't think it ever works well, to be honest, but, um, in 334 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:22,020 DOD, that fuzzy front end and that last mile are drastically larger than they are in even 335 00:19:22,020 --> 00:19:22,800 the commercial space. 336 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:23,020 Right. 337 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,980 I mean, I just mentioned our fuzzy front end getting congressional budgets that can be like 338 00:19:26,980 --> 00:19:27,980 a five-year process. 339 00:19:28,100 --> 00:19:29,320 Two years is the minimum. 340 00:19:29,900 --> 00:19:32,120 Um, and it really depends on what you're working on. 341 00:19:32,180 --> 00:19:34,680 And then three years to five years on that last mile. 342 00:19:35,340 --> 00:19:37,720 Uh, so you build up a lot of risk in that time. 343 00:19:38,020 --> 00:19:44,140 And so everything that you see in the DOD is an effort to buy down the risk from those two 344 00:19:44,140 --> 00:19:44,380 things. 345 00:19:44,380 --> 00:19:48,200 So I would say if you're not going to tackle those two things, which is most program offices 346 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:52,240 aren't, uh, you know, they're not addressing the requirements and design process and they're 347 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:56,700 not addressing their fielding process, then yeah, keep, keep doing what you're doing. 348 00:19:57,100 --> 00:19:59,080 Um, don't try to change the small little part. 349 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:00,420 You actually introduce more risk. 350 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:07,780 Um, and, uh, anyways, yeah, I think that everybody could benefit from going this direction, but 351 00:20:07,780 --> 00:20:12,000 they have to tackle it across the board and not just focus on the software development use. 352 00:20:13,180 --> 00:20:13,580 Yeah. 353 00:20:13,660 --> 00:20:17,720 Well, I asked you, you, uh, when you were first kicking off, you were, you're talking 354 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:20,340 about DIUX and Kessel Run and some of these groups. 355 00:20:20,340 --> 00:20:26,020 And I wanted to quick back you up and ask you like, Kip, tell me what Kessel Run is because 356 00:20:26,020 --> 00:20:27,460 you kind of named your change, right? 357 00:20:27,460 --> 00:20:30,240 You didn't just say like, there's going to be some few rogue people in the group who just 358 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,480 kind of built things better, requisition stuff better. 359 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:34,800 There was a group set up for this, right? 360 00:20:36,380 --> 00:20:36,740 Yeah. 361 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,920 Kind of, uh, a group of, uh, volunteers, rebels maybe. 362 00:20:41,260 --> 00:20:48,040 Uh, so we had a defense innovation unit experimental, a group at Silicon Valley, uh, defense outpost 363 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,960 there that tries to develop relationships in the community. 364 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:58,000 Um, and they let out some unique contracts that help, uh, you know, non-traditional, uh, 365 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:02,100 organizations such as Pivotal, uh, be able to work with the government more easily because 366 00:21:02,100 --> 00:21:04,120 going through that contracting process is such a bear. 367 00:21:04,120 --> 00:21:09,100 So there was Colonel Enrique Odee was there, um, innovative guy spoke at SpringOne, actually 368 00:21:09,100 --> 00:21:10,540 there's a really good talk out there on YouTube. 369 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:14,220 Um, and he was working on this jigsaw project. 370 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:19,780 Uh, you had myself and the AOC program office, uh, so it was, uh, Colonel Sanders. 371 00:21:19,980 --> 00:21:23,140 I love saying his name, uh, makes me chuckle every time. 372 00:21:23,660 --> 00:21:28,300 Um, and then a few people from the Pentagon, actually the years, uh, the defense digital 373 00:21:28,300 --> 00:21:32,820 service is not a well-known group, um, but really great if you have like civic interest, 374 00:21:32,820 --> 00:21:38,140 uh, us digital service and the defense digital service are great places to go, uh, do a 375 00:21:38,140 --> 00:21:39,420 tour of duty anyways. 376 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:44,220 So a group of us got together out in, uh, San Francisco and decided we were going to, 377 00:21:44,220 --> 00:21:45,300 or we were going to do things differently. 378 00:21:45,900 --> 00:21:49,360 Um, and yeah, we, we whiteboarded a name in classic fashion. 379 00:21:49,460 --> 00:21:50,600 We dot vote did it. 380 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:52,340 Uh, we recently just framed this. 381 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,200 So somebody still had it as an artifact and we put it up in our new office, uh, Kessel 382 00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:00,280 Run won the dot votes, but, um, it was a joke that we were going to smuggle this into 383 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:00,680 the VOD. 384 00:22:00,940 --> 00:22:04,240 A lot of people think it's a parsecs reference, but it was more of a smuggling reference. 385 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:10,400 Um, and yeah, so, uh, the, the project that we decided to take on was the air operations 386 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:15,020 center, uh, which is where all missions all across the globe for the air force. 387 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:21,360 Um, they are planned, uh, and tasked out of these air operation centers and the software 388 00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:22,680 in them is, is terrible. 389 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,300 So we took on the project of fixing this. 390 00:22:27,060 --> 00:22:27,420 Awesome. 391 00:22:27,580 --> 00:22:29,540 So do you think that branding makes a difference? 392 00:22:29,620 --> 00:22:33,720 I mean, we've seen a few pivotal customers and just industry people who kind of say, look, 393 00:22:33,740 --> 00:22:34,560 here's a change unit. 394 00:22:34,620 --> 00:22:36,560 Let's actually something around it. 395 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,760 I mean, I have my agile AF shirt that I wear every other week. 396 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:43,380 And, you know, people, you know, I, I think people have kind of captured, you know, kind 397 00:22:43,380 --> 00:22:48,160 of glom to just your, your vibe, your thing, your, Hey, there's, this group has a thing 398 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:48,860 on your door. 399 00:22:49,060 --> 00:22:51,080 There's a logo when you show pictures of it. 400 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,400 So do you think branding the change helps? 401 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,520 Do you think that helps it get some traction and also help stick? 402 00:22:58,100 --> 00:22:59,060 Uh, absolutely. 403 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,900 Uh, it was one of the, uh, early lessons. 404 00:23:01,900 --> 00:23:03,520 So we weren't getting traction. 405 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:08,960 Um, there's always a revisionist history of the story where all of the now champions pretend 406 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:10,360 like they are champions all along. 407 00:23:10,940 --> 00:23:15,160 Uh, but early on, we had almost nothing but naysayers to be honest. 408 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:19,020 And then just a lot of people ignoring us were a blip on the radar in terms of the defense, 409 00:23:19,140 --> 00:23:19,880 you know, budget. 410 00:23:20,540 --> 00:23:27,960 Um, and so a few of us, uh, it was really at first it started as Adam Pertato and I, 411 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,480 um, we just sat down and said, like, we got to get our own message out there. 412 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:35,380 Like our own leadership wasn't even paying attention to us, actively ignoring us in some 413 00:23:35,380 --> 00:23:35,680 cases. 414 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:40,200 And so we started our own branding campaign, reaching out to news agencies, which is something, 415 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,580 uh, a lot of people in defense don't do or kind of frown on. 416 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:48,360 Um, some people don't like that we do it, but, uh, yeah, we started a branding campaign. 417 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,900 We actually went back and watched this old, uh, Steve jobs video. 418 00:23:52,300 --> 00:23:58,400 Um, one of the early ones when he starts remarketing Apple, uh, and so like, how can we make a branding 419 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,700 campaign, um, that people believe in? 420 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:00,980 Right. 421 00:24:01,120 --> 00:24:06,160 And kind of corny, but, uh, you know, Simon Sinek, start with why people don't buy what 422 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:06,400 you do. 423 00:24:06,460 --> 00:24:07,300 They buy why you do it. 424 00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:10,020 There's a ton of people going around saying what they do. 425 00:24:10,420 --> 00:24:15,180 Uh, you know, everybody in the DOD is doing agile in some form, but we really started with 426 00:24:15,180 --> 00:24:19,020 this, Hey, we're going to revelation, revolutionize the way the air force builds and deliver 427 00:24:19,020 --> 00:24:19,600 software. 428 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:24,140 Uh, and then even when we talk about our mission, right, we included something in there that 429 00:24:24,140 --> 00:24:29,240 I think is very foreign to the military, but, uh, that we're building software that our airmen 430 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:29,540 love. 431 00:24:30,220 --> 00:24:36,480 Uh, and so those two things, I think really started to change the narrative around what we were 432 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:41,240 doing and just started to believe in why we were doing it, uh, and then started paying 433 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:42,200 attention to what we do. 434 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:43,280 Right. 435 00:24:43,500 --> 00:24:44,760 That's inspiring stuff. 436 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,540 I'll ask you a quick follow-up because one thing I, uh, I observed you. 437 00:24:49,020 --> 00:24:52,600 What I was tweeting about a couple of weeks ago was some of the, uh, I don't know. 438 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,760 I think you said it more artfully, but it's not just about sprinkling some pivotal. 439 00:24:56,460 --> 00:24:58,980 Like there's a lot of work to scale this stuff. 440 00:24:58,980 --> 00:25:02,460 Like, even though you all just got started and got rolling, there was, you know, maybe 441 00:25:02,460 --> 00:25:06,640 the 10,000 hours sort of Gladwell thing you had to kind of get better at software. 442 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,840 So what's some of the, what's some of that work that sometimes people might think like, 443 00:25:10,900 --> 00:25:14,200 yeah, just buying a product or, you know, doing some trust falls in the parking lot. 444 00:25:14,540 --> 00:25:16,280 We all love each other enough. 445 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:18,020 Why is it more than that? 446 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:22,260 And like, maybe I'm being a little cheeky, but like, what's that work that maybe it's 447 00:25:22,260 --> 00:25:24,780 not the glory work, but it's what's necessary for your team. 448 00:25:24,940 --> 00:25:27,860 Do you feel like they're actually getting in the rhythm of doing things the right way? 449 00:25:28,900 --> 00:25:29,020 Yeah. 450 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:34,280 Uh, well, I will say, um, and not just cause I'm on the phone with pivots, but, uh, the 451 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,720 pivotal model does this really well at the team level. 452 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:43,660 Uh, it's, it's, it's essentially forced deliberate practice, uh, for 40 hours a week, uh, for 453 00:25:43,660 --> 00:25:44,940 as long as your engagements are. 454 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,840 And, you know, our, some of our engagements early on, because we didn't have our own lab 455 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:50,760 to move into, got into like the eight month mark. 456 00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:54,580 So, you know, that, that's just work. 457 00:25:54,580 --> 00:25:57,060 We're all work that the teams are doing, but that happens organically. 458 00:25:57,060 --> 00:26:01,320 I think that, that tweet storm that you mentioned was kind of a shot across the bow of, uh, 459 00:26:01,620 --> 00:26:02,120 hey, leadership. 460 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,880 Why aren't you doing this and following suit of your people? 461 00:26:05,540 --> 00:26:11,420 Um, I, I think that, uh, leadership is also a practice, but we don't usually treat it as 462 00:26:11,420 --> 00:26:11,740 such. 463 00:26:12,420 --> 00:26:17,460 Um, we talk about leadership experience a lot, but you don't really call leaders practitioners. 464 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,240 Uh, and I think that's a shame. 465 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:26,260 I, I, the one thing that you'll see with, uh, some of the early people, and we were like 466 00:26:26,260 --> 00:26:32,220 very junior young people as well, um, with no backgrounds in any of this, but Adam, myself, 467 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:37,960 uh, Torrey cuff, uh, we spent a lot of time with pivotal leadership. 468 00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:40,000 I would just go sit at labs. 469 00:26:40,060 --> 00:26:44,680 I wasn't on a team and I would shadow, uh, Hedy Stern, the associate director, uh, at 470 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:45,500 pivotal labs Cambridge. 471 00:26:46,260 --> 00:26:53,220 Um, and I would identify a lot of weaknesses, uh, and then go set up systems of practice to, 472 00:26:53,300 --> 00:26:55,460 to help myself, uh, address those weaknesses. 473 00:26:55,800 --> 00:27:00,600 Um, I think that fundamentally, you know, if you're going to use pivotal and go to pivotal 474 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,960 labs, your teams are going to get the deliberate practice they need. 475 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,560 Um, I think the real work has to be done is coming in at a leadership level. 476 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:14,960 Uh, and it's, uh, it's, it's something that I overlooked, I think early on too, like the 477 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:16,760 small group of us, we did it implicitly. 478 00:27:16,900 --> 00:27:21,920 Um, but I don't think in one of my biggest regrets is not early on establishing a practice 479 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,440 for leadership, uh, and growing other people into those roles. 480 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:31,300 So I would say by and large, the thing people overlook the most is well, number one platform. 481 00:27:31,300 --> 00:27:34,100 I kind of made a comment about that at SpringOne. 482 00:27:34,460 --> 00:27:37,380 Um, you get distracted by shiny apps, you forget about the platform. 483 00:27:37,500 --> 00:27:38,340 We definitely did that. 484 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:44,260 Uh, but we corrected that and, uh, and then the, the final thing that people overlook in 485 00:27:44,260 --> 00:27:46,400 their journeys, their leadership's transformation. 486 00:27:47,020 --> 00:27:53,760 So, so tell me, most, most people don't bring up the idea of like, uh, I, I didn't know anything 487 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:58,220 about the topic, so I took the time to learn about it to put it one way. 488 00:27:58,220 --> 00:28:02,080 And, and like, like you, you use this phrase like, uh, systems of practice. 489 00:28:02,540 --> 00:28:08,060 And, um, I, I mean, I imagine that is not only learning what the topic is, but sort of 490 00:28:08,060 --> 00:28:14,100 coming up with, um, a process for getting better at it and continuing to like understand how 491 00:28:14,100 --> 00:28:14,980 to manage it and do it. 492 00:28:14,980 --> 00:28:19,920 But like, what was that, what, what did you sort of, uh, what's the word intentionally 493 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:26,040 do to sort of like build up the capability of yourself and other people to be able to do 494 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:27,440 all this stuff and understand it? 495 00:28:29,180 --> 00:28:33,920 Uh, I mean, people are your, your mechanism to do that. 496 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:34,200 Right. 497 00:28:34,300 --> 00:28:38,040 Uh, and feedback, and we talk a lot about feedback culture, but again, 498 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,180 something that gets ignored a lot at the leadership level. 499 00:28:40,180 --> 00:28:46,240 So, um, as this was all going on, there were a lot of people who were spending their times 500 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,160 going out to stakeholders and going to the Pentagon and doing those things. 501 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:56,720 I spent all my time with the team, uh, and the teams gave me a lot of feedback, which quickly 502 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:57,900 identifies a lot of your weaknesses. 503 00:28:57,900 --> 00:29:01,940 And then, as I mentioned, uh, you know, it's a humbling experience. 504 00:29:01,940 --> 00:29:08,040 I, I think, uh, for most people, if they sat in a room with some of these, you know, in 505 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:09,080 my case, I was with pivotal. 506 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:14,080 So associate directors, directors being in a room with people like the two of you, uh, 507 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:18,900 you know, Edward, um, there's a lot of people, uh, James Watters where I'm just sitting in a 508 00:29:18,900 --> 00:29:23,700 room realizing, Oh my God, like, if I really want to do this, like if we want to build something 509 00:29:23,700 --> 00:29:26,120 like this, we need to build people like that. 510 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,540 Uh, and so, yeah, identifying your weaknesses. 511 00:29:29,540 --> 00:29:34,280 I think, uh, deliberate practice is something that people don't understand that well. 512 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:39,400 I think a lot of people hear the 10,000 hours and they, they, I think it's a Malcolm Gladwell 513 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:39,800 reference. 514 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:45,960 Um, but actually, uh, one of my favorite books is talent is overrated, uh, where they talk 515 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,680 about, it's not just 10,000 hours of anything. 516 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,500 Uh, it's, it's a certain number of hours. 517 00:29:51,500 --> 00:29:54,660 Maybe it's 10,000, maybe it's five of something called deliberate practice. 518 00:29:54,660 --> 00:29:55,600 And that's very different. 519 00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:01,520 Um, that's identifying things that you can't do, uh, setting stretch goals, uh, and practicing 520 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:03,840 until you can make those hard things really easy. 521 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:04,260 Um, that's very different. 522 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:09,240 And, uh, yeah, so starts with feedback, uh, and then it's just a lot of hard work. 523 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:10,500 It's not fun work at all. 524 00:30:10,500 --> 00:30:13,400 It's kind of like, you know, if you're in athletics drills. 525 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:14,600 Yeah. 526 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:14,880 Yeah. 527 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:21,220 I just finished reading that, uh, a related book, uh, peak, I think, which is by a journalist 528 00:30:21,220 --> 00:30:23,920 and one of the academics of deliberate practice stuff. 529 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:25,180 And yeah, is it, is it interesting? 530 00:30:25,180 --> 00:30:28,300 Like, uh, well, it's being, it's not just interesting. 531 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:33,100 It's a much more actionable and pragmatic idea of how to get good at something than sort of 532 00:30:33,100 --> 00:30:35,560 just like, I don't know, memorize a times table. 533 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,820 Uh, but, uh, yeah, like, like you're saying, there's this idea of, uh, well, one, you need 534 00:30:39,820 --> 00:30:44,260 the basic skills and, but then two, you have to build up this, uh, what does it call it? 535 00:30:44,260 --> 00:30:47,120 Like a model that kind of represents what it is you're doing. 536 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:51,640 And I think in software, uh, I don't know, you could pick something like lean product design 537 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,960 and the model being like, we have a theory of how to do software. 538 00:30:55,100 --> 00:30:57,760 We want to validate the theory by having people use it. 539 00:30:58,300 --> 00:31:01,260 And then if it worked or not, we'll come up with a new way of solving that problem. 540 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:06,300 I mean, that's a very high level model, but you know, it's almost like a system, if you 541 00:31:06,300 --> 00:31:06,540 will. 542 00:31:07,100 --> 00:31:10,140 And, and then, and then, and then the third thing, other than, you know, putting in your 543 00:31:10,140 --> 00:31:16,940 thousands of hours of practices, like actually having a teacher or a coach to similarly give 544 00:31:16,940 --> 00:31:19,340 you feedback about that part could be improved. 545 00:31:19,340 --> 00:31:23,240 And that part is better, but to kind of have a third party that's giving you some guidance 546 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:27,460 on something instead of being like, you know, a castaway trying to improve on your own. 547 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:28,440 Yeah. 548 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,480 And, uh, this is something you guys might know. 549 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:32,540 I'm, I'm always curious. 550 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:38,080 Uh, one thing that as you're dealing with a lot of people that are going through transformations, 551 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:45,280 um, and as you're going through the transformation, you're often the person that, uh, probably most, 552 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,900 if you're leading one of these, you, you most need a coach, but at the same time, you don't 553 00:31:48,900 --> 00:31:49,340 have one. 554 00:31:49,940 --> 00:31:50,740 Um, yeah. 555 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:55,540 And so, you know, like it's one thing to have mentors and coaches that are outside of your 556 00:31:55,540 --> 00:31:56,140 context. 557 00:31:56,340 --> 00:32:01,820 Uh, and I say context, I mean like very fine grained context, like pivotal has a lot of 558 00:32:01,820 --> 00:32:06,260 context over digital transformation, but no context over the DOD space, for instance. 559 00:32:06,260 --> 00:32:13,500 Um, is that's where it gets really hard is now you have to, you know, a mentor is only 560 00:32:13,500 --> 00:32:15,260 as good as the context you provide them. 561 00:32:15,260 --> 00:32:18,620 And we're all really biased about providing context over the decisions we made. 562 00:32:18,700 --> 00:32:21,500 Uh, we kind of like lead the witness that we made the right decision. 563 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:29,140 Um, but I think that, uh, coming up with something around that, how to identify that, um, and it's 564 00:32:29,140 --> 00:32:34,180 something that I think pivotal and all of their clients would benefit really gratefully, great 565 00:32:34,180 --> 00:32:35,900 from, it's, it's like a nut that I haven't cracked. 566 00:32:36,580 --> 00:32:41,560 Uh, I think it's really poses a problem for transforming leadership themselves. 567 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:42,040 Yeah. 568 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:42,260 Yeah. 569 00:32:42,260 --> 00:32:47,120 We, we need some sort of, uh, they used to call them special interest groups or SIGs of 570 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:48,880 just like, uh, industry people. 571 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:53,240 And there's always, uh, there's always, I guess to be all fancy, you always, you, you, you, 572 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:57,500 it's, you could call it the in problem when there's just the first person or, you know, 573 00:32:57,500 --> 00:33:00,840 problem they, they, you know, there has to be a bit of bootstrapping, but then once you 574 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,840 get a, you, once you get a one additional person, you have two and so forth and so on. 575 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:11,780 But yeah, it, uh, it w it would be nice to have more solid sort of like industry practice, 576 00:33:11,780 --> 00:33:15,340 like, uh, people talking with each other and to, to share that knowledge. 577 00:33:15,340 --> 00:33:16,460 But yeah, you're right. 578 00:33:16,460 --> 00:33:20,900 Like, like, uh, I, I see this a lot happen across industries of, of people I talk with 579 00:33:20,900 --> 00:33:27,760 and they, the best you can do if there's not peers who understand your context, so to speak 580 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:33,180 is try really hard to find analogous things to sort of learn from and build. 581 00:33:33,180 --> 00:33:39,000 And I think, I think the broad topic of like compliance and just, and security, like those 582 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:40,020 are kind of good, right? 583 00:33:40,020 --> 00:33:45,160 Like the, um, like often the, the stories, uh, that, that y'all tell that had to do with 584 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:50,700 compliance, like ETO things and stuff like that are analogously and applicable to other 585 00:33:50,700 --> 00:33:54,520 people who have compliance and, you know, they're, they're different and they might have different 586 00:33:54,520 --> 00:34:00,620 words and things going on, but basically the model of what you do there, uh, namely, if 587 00:34:00,620 --> 00:34:04,720 you're just deploying one line of code, not certifying everything down to the dirt and figuring 588 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:09,020 out how to get to that point, like is helpful over there as a kind of search for other people 589 00:34:09,020 --> 00:34:10,280 to help, help you out with. 590 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:11,360 Yeah. 591 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,600 You think, uh, I remember Rob Mays said that pair program. 592 00:34:14,980 --> 00:34:18,840 Kind of was the first real time we had empathy or this idea of empathy. 593 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,080 Cause you'd actually understood the pair sitting next to you. 594 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,660 You wonder if there, we should be doing a little more pairing at the leader level. 595 00:34:23,660 --> 00:34:25,540 Cause that should be bi-directional, right? 596 00:34:25,540 --> 00:34:27,700 You shouldn't be on your own, just trying to figure stuff out. 597 00:34:27,700 --> 00:34:31,480 You find a pair who may not even know your domain, but they know their domain. 598 00:34:31,580 --> 00:34:33,240 And you're trying to do some cross knowledge share. 599 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,000 But I don't know if we don't do that enough at a leadership level. 600 00:34:36,140 --> 00:34:40,340 We just expect that people quote unquote doing the work to pair, but are the leaders pairing 601 00:34:40,340 --> 00:34:44,500 as well with somebody maybe outside industry or somebody with less, maybe overall experience, 602 00:34:44,580 --> 00:34:46,760 but the experience they need to transfer. 603 00:34:46,900 --> 00:34:47,180 So I don't know. 604 00:34:47,240 --> 00:34:47,840 Do you ever see that? 605 00:34:47,900 --> 00:34:51,780 Do you see leadership doing that sort of coaching with people outside industry, Brian? 606 00:34:52,900 --> 00:34:56,480 Uh, not, uh, not so much. 607 00:34:56,540 --> 00:35:02,300 I actually, I say all the people that I've seen be successful in this have, um, so Adam 608 00:35:02,300 --> 00:35:06,760 Purtado, I mentioned him, he actually set us up with other pivotal clients, but, uh, all 609 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:07,940 state and HDSC. 610 00:35:08,340 --> 00:35:10,080 Uh, and we went out and visited them. 611 00:35:10,500 --> 00:35:16,400 Uh, and then like myself personally, I've reached out to Mark Garavito at HDSC, uh, here 612 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:21,320 and there, uh, when I need advice or just like somebody to, we have this phrase, it's going 613 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,720 to take some explaining, uh, pump your bunny. 614 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:26,240 Uh, sure. 615 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:27,780 I want that t-shirt next. 616 00:35:28,140 --> 00:35:28,320 Yeah. 617 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:34,980 So, uh, I don't know if you guys have heard the story of this, but, uh, Josh Marcus, he's 618 00:35:34,980 --> 00:35:40,580 a defense innovation board, so that group that Eric Schmidt's a part of, um, he had 619 00:35:40,580 --> 00:35:46,420 this phrase from, uh, somebody at Darden, he went to Darden, uh, told the story of his 620 00:35:46,420 --> 00:35:51,140 kids going out to the beach and he said, government innovation is a lot like this experience I had 621 00:35:51,140 --> 00:35:54,700 at the beach with my kids where, you know, there's waves out there and they've got this 622 00:35:54,700 --> 00:35:59,860 big inflatable bunny, uh, and I pumped that thing up, you know, uh, blowing into it. 623 00:35:59,860 --> 00:36:03,600 I send them out onto the waves and, uh, pretty soon they come in and they're all sad and 624 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,020 their bunnies deflated, uh, from all the waves. 625 00:36:06,020 --> 00:36:10,260 And I have to pump that bunny up again, like four or five times, uh, they come in and I 626 00:36:10,260 --> 00:36:11,440 got to keep pumping up their bunny. 627 00:36:11,500 --> 00:36:12,780 And he said, that's government innovation. 628 00:36:12,780 --> 00:36:14,860 It's like, you don't have somebody to pump your bunny. 629 00:36:15,460 --> 00:36:17,360 Uh, you're not going back out on the waves. 630 00:36:17,380 --> 00:36:22,600 So it's like a kind of lewd, uh, so it's fun and it's funny and it's something that we 631 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:22,960 say a lot. 632 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,800 So anyways, yes, uh, Mark Cardido is somebody that helped, uh, I think pump our bunnies. 633 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:27,920 He pumps your bunny. 634 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:29,160 No, that's, that's good. 635 00:36:29,260 --> 00:36:34,420 What is the, uh, so I mean, you figured out a lot of these, uh, the hard things as you've, 636 00:36:34,420 --> 00:36:35,520 you've kind of gotten started. 637 00:36:35,620 --> 00:36:39,340 What's the, uh, I mean, what's the next hard thing you're trying to figure out, especially 638 00:36:39,340 --> 00:36:40,220 within Kessel Run? 639 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,960 Like that you feel like, okay, we've, we've solved some, some areas. 640 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:44,280 We're going to keep getting better. 641 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,020 We've got to keep funding up, but where's, where are those, what's that next thing that 642 00:36:48,020 --> 00:36:49,140 the team has set their eye on? 643 00:36:50,100 --> 00:36:50,380 Yeah. 644 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,860 Uh, you know, how do you do a PIV net upgrade over dial-up speed? 645 00:36:54,980 --> 00:36:57,480 Um, no, we, we actually had that. 646 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:02,480 We had a 56k switch that we found, um, that was throttling all of our traffic. 647 00:37:02,900 --> 00:37:08,820 Uh, I would say that's, that's one area is, uh, the networking challenges that we have 648 00:37:08,820 --> 00:37:15,640 are, are fairly interesting and unique, um, because we don't operate on commercial internet. 649 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:22,960 Um, we have a lot of really legacy, uh, infrastructure, uh, around, uh, our internet connection speeds 650 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:27,340 and how they're managed at the base level and they're managed differently at every base. 651 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:31,580 So, um, that's one big thing that Colonel Odie has taken on in his champion. 652 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,920 Uh, and then the other one is, uh, I mentioned it earlier, shipping on day one. 653 00:37:36,260 --> 00:37:41,340 So I want to be able to ship our hello world off all the way to our operating environment. 654 00:37:41,980 --> 00:37:44,240 Um, it's challenging for two reasons. 655 00:37:44,240 --> 00:37:48,500 Of course, there's a lot of people that I have to convince that that's even valuable to accept 656 00:37:48,500 --> 00:37:48,960 the risk. 657 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:53,580 Um, and then, uh, the other aspect of it is, is the cybersecurity. 658 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,000 You know, we have that continuous authority to operate that's become so famous. 659 00:37:57,620 --> 00:38:02,300 Um, but it's only continuous after, uh, a lot of the initial upfront work is met. 660 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:07,720 And so I, again, that's that process I mentioned seeking about 120 days right now. 661 00:38:08,180 --> 00:38:13,420 Uh, so I have to reduce that by 120 X, but I feel pretty good about, about being able to 662 00:38:13,420 --> 00:38:13,760 do that. 663 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:20,560 So, so then like you were saying, there's, uh, like, like in this, in, in the domain of, 664 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:22,980 of Kessel stuff, you've got like 18 teams or so. 665 00:38:22,980 --> 00:38:28,220 And as you, uh, I don't know, as you, as you sort of daydream about like one day having, 666 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:32,800 let's say a hundred or 200 teams, like how, I don't know, how are you starting to think 667 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,640 about how you would like scale the change up to that amount? 668 00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:40,180 Like, is there a ceiling you'll reach or like, what kind of challenges do you think you would 669 00:38:40,180 --> 00:38:41,920 have and how would you get around it? 670 00:38:43,240 --> 00:38:43,600 Yeah. 671 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,700 I, uh, I, I try not to think about those things. 672 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:51,560 Honestly, I, I'm a firm follower of the guidance, uh, do things that don't scale. 673 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:56,760 Um, if you're thinking about scale and you start doing things that will scale, it means 674 00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:02,280 that you're over engineering or over, uh, complexifying your, your current situation. 675 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:08,380 And so I'm always focused on doing what works now and, uh, just focused on being able to 676 00:39:08,380 --> 00:39:09,580 learn and react quickly. 677 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:14,640 So thing that I have, uh, big thing that I've had to focus on personally, and one of my weaknesses 678 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:20,940 as well as developing this in my leadership team is, uh, being able to learn fast and react, 679 00:39:20,940 --> 00:39:22,840 uh, quickly to our learnings. 680 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,040 And if you focus on those two things, the rest just follows. 681 00:39:26,220 --> 00:39:30,280 I mean, people, people solve problems, um, invest in your people and they'll figure out how 682 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:31,740 to solve your problems when they arise. 683 00:39:32,020 --> 00:39:37,360 Um, we've proven that over and over again, you know, every time there's this seemingly 684 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,360 insurmountable challenge, uh, we're able to get over it. 685 00:39:40,780 --> 00:39:45,980 There are, I say all that, but of course I can't stop myself like anybody else from, uh, 686 00:39:45,980 --> 00:39:47,400 you know, thinking about those things. 687 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:52,500 And, uh, we've learned a lot of lessons about, you know, how flat is too flat when it comes 688 00:39:52,500 --> 00:39:59,760 to munition structures and how do you scale, um, I say leadership, but, you know, we, we 689 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:01,100 still want it to be flat. 690 00:40:01,100 --> 00:40:06,100 So we're really talking about servants, uh, people that serve the product teams, uh, to 691 00:40:06,100 --> 00:40:08,100 get them the things they need to unblock things. 692 00:40:08,100 --> 00:40:16,440 Uh, so we've invested a lot in practices around kind of similar to the, uh, pivotal, uh, client 693 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:23,580 liaison role, but more for focus internally, uh, is how do we serve our product teams as we 694 00:40:23,580 --> 00:40:23,900 scale? 695 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:29,160 And I think when we crack that nut, the, the ability to scale becomes boundless. 696 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,880 It's just a matter of scaling your people first. 697 00:40:32,780 --> 00:40:39,020 And to your point, like the word scale is always, well, by now it's extremely loaded term 698 00:40:39,020 --> 00:40:44,960 or whatever loaded means, but, but it's, uh, it's almost a, uh, a shipwreck before you 699 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:49,440 can finish pronouncing it in the context of changing how organizations work. 700 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:54,300 And I don't know, maybe a more helpful word is sort of like spread or something like that. 701 00:40:54,300 --> 00:40:54,520 Right. 702 00:40:54,520 --> 00:41:01,240 Like to have more people benefit from these things, but it is, it is like, I think I go going back 703 00:41:01,240 --> 00:41:09,640 a little bit, but to the point of chain, I don't know, fixing up people or, or, or figuring 704 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:15,400 out how you can make people like the, uh, the source of changing things for the better. 705 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:19,180 Like when you're, one thing that strikes me is as you were going over, you were saying 706 00:41:19,180 --> 00:41:22,540 one of the things you need to do is focus people on why you're doing something. 707 00:41:22,540 --> 00:41:28,920 And I would add kind of like the full outcome of doing something versus like, uh, the siloed 708 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:31,040 approach of like my little part of the process. 709 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:34,920 I do really well and I don't really care what happens before or after that. 710 00:41:35,060 --> 00:41:40,560 And so that, that's like, that's like one of these almost mystical things of like lean 711 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:46,580 and agile software is that if we have people focus end to end, instead of doing their little 712 00:41:46,580 --> 00:41:48,440 part, the software will improve. 713 00:41:48,980 --> 00:41:54,120 Uh, but it's, it's, uh, it's more of like an intuitive argument you make on that before 714 00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:55,080 people actually try it. 715 00:41:55,140 --> 00:42:00,000 So it's a difficult thing to get across to people that we don't want people just, uh, focused 716 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:05,120 on like their database part or their operations part or making sure their tests run correctly. 717 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:10,360 And instead, as, as I guess, sort of like a leader or a manager, we should try to put together 718 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:15,120 teams and the, the, the weekly workflow so that they actually do get a chance to focus 719 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:16,720 on that bigger end to end thing. 720 00:42:16,720 --> 00:42:22,820 Or as you say, the why of doing things, which I don't know, I'm trying to construct a possible 721 00:42:22,820 --> 00:42:27,260 truism to, to apply to like scaling up change like this. 722 00:42:27,260 --> 00:42:32,140 But it seems like there's an evolving, like maybe there's like five principles like that, 723 00:42:32,140 --> 00:42:36,340 that aren't just a rephrasing of the agile software development principles from way back 724 00:42:36,340 --> 00:42:40,000 when, but there's a few little things like that, that I see people struggling with in 725 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,620 large organizations that are sort of, um, what would you call them? 726 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:46,360 They're like structural issues that have to change. 727 00:42:46,420 --> 00:42:50,660 Otherwise it's the old, uh, you know, square peg in a round hole situation that you get. 728 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,280 And someone's got to bore out that, uh, that, that round hole. 729 00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:55,400 I guess you wouldn't bore it. 730 00:42:55,400 --> 00:43:01,940 You cut it into a square, but anyways, that's, that's my soliloquy for the podcast. 731 00:43:02,140 --> 00:43:03,660 Um, yeah. 732 00:43:04,460 --> 00:43:04,860 Yeah. 733 00:43:04,860 --> 00:43:06,920 Alignment is, uh, is always a challenge. 734 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:08,620 We struggled with that early on. 735 00:43:08,620 --> 00:43:14,000 I think the, the, the danger and where most people get stuck is, uh, leadership starts to 736 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:18,460 view that as a people or a team problem, uh, instead of a leadership failure. 737 00:43:19,060 --> 00:43:24,420 So, um, the people that, I think there's a natural evolution that when you start with 738 00:43:24,420 --> 00:43:28,420 one or two product teams, uh, they develop a product team identity. 739 00:43:28,420 --> 00:43:30,240 There's, there's nothing else at that point. 740 00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:35,760 Um, their goal, uh, in fact, you know, in your, uh, book on strategy, you know, it's 741 00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:39,560 pick that quick win, that thing that's going to get you, uh, the visibility you need jigsaw 742 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:43,140 was that for us that naturally produces, and we shouldn't fight it. 743 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:48,380 Uh, it naturally produces kind of a hero mentality in that team and a very individualistic, uh, 744 00:43:48,380 --> 00:43:49,280 like team identity. 745 00:43:50,020 --> 00:43:54,840 Um, and there comes an inflection point and I don't know when that is, uh, that you need 746 00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:58,940 all the things to start working together to produce those, those higher level of portfolio 747 00:43:58,940 --> 00:44:01,580 or, you know, line of business outcomes that you're looking for. 748 00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:06,320 And that's fundamentally a leadership problem if that's not happening. 749 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,860 Uh, and you have to evolve the teams out of that. 750 00:44:09,940 --> 00:44:13,960 The only way you can do that is by getting them to believe in the higher level outcomes. 751 00:44:14,460 --> 00:44:19,260 Uh, and, you know, getting people to believe is, again, it's, it's a leadership, it's a 752 00:44:19,260 --> 00:44:19,920 leadership function. 753 00:44:20,060 --> 00:44:21,620 It's not your people that are the problem. 754 00:44:21,620 --> 00:44:24,400 And so, uh, yeah, we, we struggled with that. 755 00:44:24,660 --> 00:44:26,800 Uh, I think we're just turning a corner with that. 756 00:44:26,860 --> 00:44:28,440 We're using OKR framework. 757 00:44:28,720 --> 00:44:30,040 It's one way to do it. 758 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:35,080 A lot of people use different frameworks to produce alignment, but, um, yeah, this is 759 00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:35,940 definitely a challenge. 760 00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:40,740 But as long as you realize that it's you that needs to do the work there and it's not 761 00:44:40,740 --> 00:44:44,440 your team, uh, I think it's a lot easier to focus in on the real issue. 762 00:44:44,460 --> 00:44:48,660 Um, that, that would be a good word to do the, uh, what does this actually mean treat 763 00:44:48,660 --> 00:44:51,100 mean treatment on the word alignment? 764 00:44:51,340 --> 00:44:57,640 Like that's, that's like a word in a, um, organizational context that is kind of vacuous 765 00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:03,800 and laughable now, but, but just, just like my original favorite word in this bucket, the 766 00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:10,560 word synergy, uh, like can be extremely meaningless, but if, if used properly, it's, it's extremely 767 00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:17,260 precise and, uh, tactical or whatever, but alignment, I'll, we'll sort that one out. 768 00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:23,880 Well, uh, but as, before we wrap up, I think, um, one of the, one of the things I, I've, I've 769 00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:28,720 seen you talk about a little bit and, and I'm, it seems not unique, but you're, you're the 770 00:45:28,720 --> 00:45:32,320 only group of people who's really kind of talked about this challenge in so much detail 771 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:37,860 and in, and in a unique way is, is the staffing issues that you have just getting people who 772 00:45:37,860 --> 00:45:44,300 you could say who have the skills to do it, but even before that, who are good for learning 773 00:45:44,300 --> 00:45:47,100 the skills to do it, I don't know, just having staffing and retention. 774 00:45:47,100 --> 00:45:52,880 And, um, like what, what are the challenges you've had there and like, how are you making 775 00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:54,760 it work despite those challenges? 776 00:45:56,300 --> 00:45:56,780 Yeah. 777 00:45:57,020 --> 00:46:00,340 Uh, oh, government hiring is very difficult. 778 00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:06,880 Um, it's, even if I just threw away who the people are just getting butts in seats is, is 779 00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:07,160 hard. 780 00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:09,720 Um, I can't even hire the wrong people. 781 00:46:10,180 --> 00:46:12,340 Uh, it's, it's crazy. 782 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,420 Just getting anybody in the door is really difficult. 783 00:46:14,420 --> 00:46:23,400 Uh, I have one person that I recently recruited is in, um, month six now, uh, of the process 784 00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:25,500 still hasn't been onboarded as a government civilian. 785 00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:30,800 So, and we've had, you know, crazy timelines like that across the board. 786 00:46:30,940 --> 00:46:31,800 Most people leave. 787 00:46:32,220 --> 00:46:37,520 These are the only people that I can get are the people that really, uh, this is what they 788 00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:38,900 want to do and they're willing to wait for it. 789 00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,100 They've got a current job and they're just, they'll wait for the process to play out. 790 00:46:42,100 --> 00:46:47,660 So, um, some interesting things, you know, we're governed by, uh, OPM, uh, Office of 791 00:46:47,660 --> 00:46:50,100 Personnel Management and all of their laws and regulations. 792 00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:55,000 Uh, and then there's crazy regulations that come into play, like, you know, the not so 793 00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:59,600 aptly named paperwork reduction act, um, that increases a lot of paperwork that has to be 794 00:46:59,600 --> 00:46:59,860 done. 795 00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:05,120 Um, and you know, it's just a whole bunch of jumping through hoops. 796 00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:10,980 I think two things though, that I've learned is that initially we did focus on like, oh my 797 00:47:10,980 --> 00:47:14,120 gosh, we need to hire talent, whatever talent is. 798 00:47:14,700 --> 00:47:22,180 Uh, and instead I think we should have focused a lot more on hiring, uh, people that we can 799 00:47:22,180 --> 00:47:22,440 grow. 800 00:47:23,100 --> 00:47:28,320 And I think there's this myth that, you know, I, I really like the, uh, on the DevOps side 801 00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:33,740 of the house, there's this, always this sentiment of, uh, it's changing now cause you're getting 802 00:47:33,740 --> 00:47:38,580 a lot more of them, but it was DevOps isn't like a competency that really exists in the 803 00:47:38,580 --> 00:47:38,980 community. 804 00:47:39,500 --> 00:47:41,920 Um, stop hiring DevOps and start growing them. 805 00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:43,800 If we say DevOps is a noun. 806 00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,300 Um, but it's very similar, right? 807 00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:53,520 Is we're in a position in the DOD where, uh, I think we can afford to take the time to grow 808 00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:55,280 this organically rather than hiring it in. 809 00:47:55,280 --> 00:48:02,020 Then I also have come to realize that going back to that issue on context, uh, deliberate 810 00:48:02,020 --> 00:48:04,080 practice is usually in that a context. 811 00:48:04,220 --> 00:48:04,920 We use the example. 812 00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:08,380 A lot of times it's like a chess player can memorize all the chess pieces on a board. 813 00:48:08,380 --> 00:48:14,260 Uh, but if you threw checkers out, up there, you think like same board, um, you know, same 814 00:48:14,260 --> 00:48:18,400 number and they can't, they can't remember the positions, you know, in those memory tests. 815 00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:25,860 Uh, likewise, there's a lot of context that, uh, our people have that is actually, I think 816 00:48:25,860 --> 00:48:27,960 harder to build than some of the raw skills. 817 00:48:28,540 --> 00:48:34,700 Um, so my big thing is let's take the people we have, find the ones that have growth mindsets 818 00:48:34,700 --> 00:48:35,660 and can grow really quickly. 819 00:48:35,660 --> 00:48:36,620 And we found a lot of them. 820 00:48:36,620 --> 00:48:42,440 And in fact, I would say that, um, the air force civilian and the air force military and 821 00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:47,280 the military in general, uh, tends to have people, uh, with those qualities. 822 00:48:47,460 --> 00:48:51,860 They're often, you think about it, they're often thrown into situations where every assignment 823 00:48:51,860 --> 00:48:53,060 that I had was something new. 824 00:48:53,140 --> 00:48:54,260 We move every three years. 825 00:48:54,380 --> 00:48:56,020 It's an entirely new context. 826 00:48:56,100 --> 00:49:00,380 And I have to go in and lead a group of 20, 30, 40 people doing something I've never done 827 00:49:00,380 --> 00:49:00,680 before. 828 00:49:01,340 --> 00:49:03,760 Um, and so we're maybe unique in that sense. 829 00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:09,640 And so, uh, I guess it started out with a negative, but I'm really hopeful looking forward 830 00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,300 that we've, we've learned a lot in our hiring practices. 831 00:49:12,460 --> 00:49:16,940 And I think in doing so, we've opened the door to a lot more real talent. 832 00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:21,680 Um, versus kind of the stagnant or fixed talent that we were looking for in the past. 833 00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:27,140 I mean, speaking of growth, you're, uh, you're experiencing a little growth yourself here. 834 00:49:27,140 --> 00:49:28,660 So, I mean, what's next for you, Brian? 835 00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:29,960 Yeah. 836 00:49:30,020 --> 00:49:32,680 So I just announced that I'm getting out of the military. 837 00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:35,800 So, uh, I mentioned moving every three years. 838 00:49:35,860 --> 00:49:36,800 It gets pretty hard on the family. 839 00:49:36,900 --> 00:49:37,920 I have a wife and three kids. 840 00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:41,140 Um, so this was kind of my last hurrah. 841 00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:46,160 Uh, so I'll be getting out in, uh, this summer and go on terminal leave in April, actually. 842 00:49:46,340 --> 00:49:48,040 So I have no idea what's next. 843 00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:53,180 Um, I've got like some interesting offers that have started to roll in, but there's a part 844 00:49:53,180 --> 00:49:55,460 of me that also wants to do my own thing. 845 00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:59,900 And then going back to what I said earlier, you know, uh, growth is hard when you don't 846 00:49:59,900 --> 00:50:03,220 have a coach and I feel like I still have a ton to learn. 847 00:50:03,420 --> 00:50:05,960 So there's a part of me that wants to go find a really good coach. 848 00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:08,540 Uh, I don't really want to find a company to work for. 849 00:50:08,620 --> 00:50:15,020 I want to find a mentor to work with, uh, and so struggling internal struggle right now, 850 00:50:15,100 --> 00:50:15,620 no decisions. 851 00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:18,900 Uh, I'm really focusing on my team. 852 00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:20,300 We have a hiring surge. 853 00:50:20,300 --> 00:50:21,920 So they use this opportunity. 854 00:50:22,100 --> 00:50:22,960 Kessel Run is hiring. 855 00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,420 We have a huge hiring fair on the 23rd and 24th. 856 00:50:25,420 --> 00:50:30,460 And instead of waiting six months, uh, the system has guaranteed us that we'll be able 857 00:50:30,460 --> 00:50:35,820 to hire people on the spot, get them in process, uh, and starting work, uh, on the 23rd and 858 00:50:35,820 --> 00:50:37,060 24th during the hiring fair. 859 00:50:37,260 --> 00:50:42,940 So, um, deadline to submit resumes is the 19th, but I'm really focused in with my team on how 860 00:50:42,940 --> 00:50:44,180 do we hire all of these people? 861 00:50:44,240 --> 00:50:46,380 We've got authority to hire 50 new people. 862 00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:49,980 And, and, uh, once we get them on board, how do we grow them? 863 00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:51,380 So that's the focus of my next month. 864 00:50:51,380 --> 00:50:54,180 And then I'll start thinking about myself and what's next. 865 00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:55,600 No, that's exciting. 866 00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:57,060 You have a lot to be proud of. 867 00:50:57,060 --> 00:50:59,720 I think Coté charges by the hour for coaching, which is pretty cool. 868 00:50:59,920 --> 00:51:03,220 So, uh, it's a lot of barbecue work that happens in there. 869 00:51:03,540 --> 00:51:06,100 It's a, it's a full, that's right. 870 00:51:06,180 --> 00:51:06,520 That's right. 871 00:51:06,580 --> 00:51:09,740 I, I, I have Richard to help me come up with my business plans. 872 00:51:09,980 --> 00:51:11,340 That's, that sounds perfect. 873 00:51:11,660 --> 00:51:13,260 Well, thanks for being on. 874 00:51:13,340 --> 00:51:16,300 We've, we've, uh, you know, we've palled around in Twitter for a while now. 875 00:51:16,300 --> 00:51:18,880 So it's nice to finally, uh, get together, record something. 876 00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:23,300 And, uh, I think, I think y'all, uh, y'all over there at the air force have, uh, you're, 877 00:51:23,300 --> 00:51:28,180 you're like unusual, not just for military, but for any organization, unusually open 878 00:51:28,180 --> 00:51:30,420 and sharing about the stuff you've been doing and learning. 879 00:51:30,420 --> 00:51:32,720 So I think that's been really helpful for everyone. 880 00:51:32,720 --> 00:51:34,060 So, uh, that's great. 881 00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:35,060 Thanks for that. 882 00:51:35,060 --> 00:51:35,660 Thank you. 883 00:51:35,900 --> 00:51:36,400 Thank you. 884 00:51:36,660 --> 00:51:37,180 Yeah, it's good. 885 00:51:37,240 --> 00:51:41,960 I always, I always, uh, you know, when I, when I, I haven't like talked for 10 or 15 minutes 886 00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:46,800 over my allotted time, I always, I always try to like end with some, uh, a slide from the 887 00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:47,680 agile manifesto. 888 00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:51,920 That's basically like, we're trying to improve software and share how to make it better. 889 00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:53,540 And you should do that as well. 890 00:51:53,540 --> 00:51:57,280 And so I'm always trying to get organizations to share more, which I think they're getting, 891 00:51:57,380 --> 00:52:02,020 you know, by like single percentage digits year over year better, but we could definitely 892 00:52:02,020 --> 00:52:02,680 do a lot more. 893 00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:06,840 Cause otherwise it's just this enterprise software blowhards who are just telling you 894 00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:12,780 why you should buy our stuff instead of, uh, actual financially unbiased best practices 895 00:52:12,780 --> 00:52:13,320 out there. 896 00:52:13,900 --> 00:52:19,560 Uh, and, and then as always, you know, thanks to our, our occasional special guest star, my 897 00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:22,140 dog, uh, who likes to show up sometimes. 898 00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:26,120 Uh, but with that, this has been another episode of, uh, Pivotal Conversations. 899 00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:29,080 Uh, oh, where should people follow you? 900 00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:32,740 Uh, if, if they're interested in following up and seeing more, you got a Twitter handle 901 00:52:32,740 --> 00:52:33,700 or anything like that? 902 00:52:34,460 --> 00:52:34,820 Yes. 903 00:52:34,940 --> 00:52:37,700 At BJ Kroger, K R O G E R. 904 00:52:38,100 --> 00:52:41,020 There's a Brian Kroger with an A out in Seattle. 905 00:52:41,020 --> 00:52:42,480 That's also a DevOps guy. 906 00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:43,600 So don't follow him. 907 00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:45,720 I'm Brian with an O Brian. 908 00:52:46,460 --> 00:52:46,860 Yeah. 909 00:52:47,220 --> 00:52:49,360 And, uh, yeah, you can follow me on LinkedIn too. 910 00:52:49,460 --> 00:52:51,260 I'd be glad to make more connections on there. 911 00:52:51,500 --> 00:52:51,700 Yeah. 912 00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:55,580 There there's, I, I, there's a, there's a guy whose Twitter handle is like, and name 913 00:52:55,580 --> 00:52:59,360 is like Michael Coyote, which is very similar to my name. 914 00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:02,720 And then oddly enough, he's like, he's like an it DevOps person. 915 00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:06,680 So every now and then there's some, uh, some wires crossed there. 916 00:53:06,780 --> 00:53:08,880 I used to also get a lot of, uh, well, not a lot. 917 00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:16,860 I used to get confused with the CEO of SecureWorks, Michael Coyote, uh, who not me, but, uh, I 918 00:53:16,860 --> 00:53:19,180 mean, he's a friendly person, but he's a much different person than me. 919 00:53:19,300 --> 00:53:21,940 Anyhow, as always, this has been Pivotal Conversations. 920 00:53:21,940 --> 00:53:26,400 If you want to find this episode, the show notes for him, we posted, uh, every Thursday 921 00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:30,320 or so over at, uh, pivotal.io slash podcast. 922 00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:33,620 Uh, you can also find all the, uh, the old episodes. 923 00:53:33,620 --> 00:53:39,040 If you're really looking for something to do over at soundcloud.com slash Pivotal Conversations. 924 00:53:39,140 --> 00:53:45,000 And hopefully you've noticed by now that we've merged our two pivotal, uh, uh, podcast, pivotal 925 00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:46,880 insights and Pivotal Conversations. 926 00:53:47,180 --> 00:53:51,800 So Richard and I are, uh, every other week, uh, that's usually our plan. 927 00:53:51,900 --> 00:53:56,180 And then you'll hear, uh, from Dormain and Jeff, uh, on, on the other week there, but I 928 00:53:56,180 --> 00:54:00,400 think we'll have a, uh, nice, broader, more comprehensive collection of stuff for your 929 00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:02,080 ear holes and your enjoyment. 930 00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:05,080 And, uh, with that, we'll see everyone next time. 931 00:54:05,240 --> 00:54:05,720 Bye-bye.