1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,900 As I've been saying to people, telling people, I've been packing up to leave for Amsterdam. 2 00:00:05,060 --> 00:00:09,620 And I wanted to ask you two, Jared and Richard, do you have any tips to give me? 3 00:00:09,620 --> 00:00:17,540 I'm at less than two weeks before we've got to vacate our entire house, and then we're going to fly over there. 4 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:29,980 But when it comes to packing up the house, give me at least one lesson learned as far as a good thing to do and one thing to avoid doing when it comes to packing up the house. 5 00:00:30,620 --> 00:00:32,580 How about you can go first guest, Jared? 6 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:39,060 I think a good standard to have is, does a particular item bring you joy? 7 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:44,560 And if it brings you joy, then bring that along with you. 8 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:50,500 If it does not bring you joy, then give it to goodwill or give it away or get rid of it. 9 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:55,740 So I think you need to have a pretty rigorous standard there for what you bring, especially for a big move overseas. 10 00:00:56,860 --> 00:01:00,300 Okay, this is good because I wasn't sure if I should take my children or not. 11 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,640 So I think the answer, I've got that answer figured out now. 12 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:06,040 And are you going to reveal what that answer is? 13 00:01:07,380 --> 00:01:11,240 Well, of course, I'll take them with me. 14 00:01:11,320 --> 00:01:15,520 I think I can check in free bags since I'm Executive Platinum so they can fit in. 15 00:01:16,100 --> 00:01:21,600 Yeah, I'm not sure what the tax rules like are in the Netherlands, so you may be putting some deductions at risk if you don't bring them. 16 00:01:23,140 --> 00:01:23,980 That's a good point. 17 00:01:24,100 --> 00:01:28,380 Now, how about something that you have learned to, like, you know, not do? 18 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:29,400 What's something to avoid? 19 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:31,740 Yeah, don't do it rushed. 20 00:01:32,180 --> 00:01:34,340 I think you need a whole lot of lead time. 21 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:38,140 The last time we moved was under duress and it was not a happy moment. 22 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:41,020 Okay, okay, that's good. 23 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:41,400 That's good. 24 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:42,260 How about yourself, Richard? 25 00:01:42,820 --> 00:01:44,500 What are some lessons learned from moving? 26 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:49,120 Yeah, gosh, I moved up from L.A. to Seattle almost three years ago exactly. 27 00:01:49,380 --> 00:01:53,340 And there's still some boxes in the garage marked, like, important that I don't think I've opened in three years. 28 00:01:53,680 --> 00:02:02,340 So, probably, you know, taking that second pass and those maybe keepsakes, sure, but, you know, moving stuff from house to house. 29 00:02:02,420 --> 00:02:08,040 If you have any boxes from your last house in your current house that you have not opened, it's probably time to say goodbye. 30 00:02:09,340 --> 00:02:10,180 That's good. 31 00:02:10,260 --> 00:02:10,980 I like that one. 32 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:13,980 That's because I've been getting rid of some stuff like that. 33 00:02:13,980 --> 00:02:22,360 And I had, now maybe I'm going to regret this, decades in the future, but I had a box full of my old G.I. Joe figures and my old Star Wars figures. 34 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:28,740 I spent a couple days thinking about them, and then I just closed up the box and took it to Goodwill, and I was done with it. 35 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:30,200 And I don't know. 36 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:36,960 I think one of the downsides of eBay is that things have very little, collectibles have very little value nowadays. 37 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,360 So, I'm pretty sure I only lost maybe, like, $50 or something. 38 00:02:40,740 --> 00:02:45,400 Well, the other thing not to do, my parents just moved, and I went to help them. 39 00:02:45,820 --> 00:02:50,200 And we got in all these awkward conversations, like, I don't want this, but you should take it to remember me. 40 00:02:50,380 --> 00:02:51,160 Like, you're, like, 60. 41 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:52,000 Like, you'll be fine. 42 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,980 Like, why am I taking life keepsakes for you? 43 00:02:55,140 --> 00:02:57,300 What am I going to do with this weird, you know, vase? 44 00:02:57,560 --> 00:02:58,540 I don't need it. 45 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:03,420 So, if you're moving, do not invite your children over and then hand them all your junk that you don't feel like throwing out. 46 00:03:04,380 --> 00:03:05,940 Oh, man, isn't that the truth? 47 00:03:05,940 --> 00:03:21,220 I have, you know, I have an even deeper problem like that, where my mother, who I don't think listens to this podcast, my mother has over the years saved a box for each year of my life. 48 00:03:21,980 --> 00:03:27,560 And at one point, at one point, I was given maybe the first eight boxes of those things. 49 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,100 So, it's not only her keepsakes. 50 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:32,820 It's her keepsakes of my keepsakes. 51 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:36,860 And, yeah, I told her that she's going to be getting those boxes back. 52 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:38,760 She's making work for you. 53 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:41,560 Exactly. 54 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,000 Well, that's good advice. 55 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,320 Why don't you introduce yourself, returning guest? 56 00:03:47,620 --> 00:03:49,240 Hey, yeah, I'm Jared Ruckel. 57 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,640 I work on the product team here for all things Pivotal Cloud Foundry. 58 00:03:54,020 --> 00:04:01,080 Well, we're going to have you on this week to talk in more detail about the most recent Pivotal Cloud Foundry release, 2.2. 59 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:07,440 Richard and I talked about it last episode or some other episode, but we'll go over it closer. 60 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:15,380 But before that, as always, a little bit of relevant infrastructure software news for those who are craving it. 61 00:04:15,380 --> 00:04:22,960 Now, I think we joined the consortium of fixing GPL v2 stuff. 62 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:25,400 Do you want to give us an overview of that, Richard? 63 00:04:26,300 --> 00:04:32,160 Yeah, I mean, everyone should have moved to the edge of their seat because this is about to get pretty exciting when we talk about open source licensing. 64 00:04:32,700 --> 00:04:35,520 So, there is the general public license GPL. 65 00:04:35,660 --> 00:04:38,200 A lot of software goes under, like Linux and others. 66 00:04:38,620 --> 00:04:46,960 Part of the challenge with v2 was that if you were noncompliant or somebody said you were misusing it, then you could immediately sue that person, bury them under stuff. 67 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:47,760 It wasn't great. 68 00:04:47,820 --> 00:04:48,780 It was a little bit combative. 69 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:53,620 And so, with v3, I believe there was this time of you had time to correct the license. 70 00:04:53,620 --> 00:04:59,560 And so, this consortium said, you know, we're also going to go ahead and apply this to v2, even though we don't have to, because it's the right thing to do. 71 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:11,340 So, Pivotal join and Red Hat led this up and Intel and Google and Microsoft, Cisco, a bunch of companies, VMware as well, jumped in and said, let's do the right thing around open source licensing and GPL. 72 00:05:11,340 --> 00:05:21,460 So, Pivotal was part of that, and anything that we either distribute that has GPL licensing or any of our own software that does, we're going to make sure we play nice and live to our core values. 73 00:05:22,100 --> 00:05:36,360 Yeah, you know, I think over the years, I used to, you know, I think to use an old phrase that's appropriate, I think I've forgotten more about open source licensing than most people know about Mickey Mouse or something. 74 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,520 But, man, that stuff is complicated. 75 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:46,940 So, it is always nice, you know, just as a side note, to sort of have a clarification about what all these things are. 76 00:05:46,940 --> 00:05:54,860 And I have also noticed over the years, there's been a consolidation of licensing that's out there, which is great. 77 00:05:55,500 --> 00:06:07,620 So, then also, you know, I didn't think to cover this here in this podcast, but you put in a link to the news of Broadcom buying CA, formerly known as Computer Associates. 78 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,040 Now, I used to work at BMC Software. 79 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:14,160 And, of course, when I was an analyst, I covered what I would call IT management. 80 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,240 So, I don't know, sure, I know CA. 81 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:35,720 I'm not so familiar with the chip companies like Broadcom, but it is a, I think the general reaction was summed up by a tweet quoted by Kent Beck that Stephen O'Grady did, which was, which was, wait, period, period, period, WT, question mark. 82 00:06:36,700 --> 00:06:53,680 And, you know, I think it is, there's been, there's been, I forget where, maybe, I think it was 451, like Nancy Goring and a couple of other people wrote this up, but they had a more, I'm trying not to say the word level-headed, but they had a more, let's do a deeper analysis of this that was pretty good. 83 00:06:53,680 --> 00:07:12,600 And I think, you know, for people who don't know, CA, I can only say Computer Associates, but CA was one of the, what used to be called the big four people in management, that being BMC, IBM Tivoli, CA, and, who's the fourth one? 84 00:07:12,620 --> 00:07:13,300 I'm always forgetting. 85 00:07:13,740 --> 00:07:15,900 Anyhow, someone else. 86 00:07:16,540 --> 00:07:23,260 And HP was in there as well, with their, not Opsware, what do they call it, Ops something. 87 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,660 Can you tell I used to be an analyst who covered this stuff? 88 00:07:26,980 --> 00:07:28,080 Yeah, deep expertise. 89 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:30,940 That's right. 90 00:07:31,420 --> 00:07:41,340 So they have, they have, they have, I think their revenue is maybe like 40, 60 between like mainframe and what mainframe people call distributed, or what the rest of us call computers. 91 00:07:41,980 --> 00:07:46,340 But they have a whole bunch of software that helps you do batch job management, monitoring, log management. 92 00:07:46,340 --> 00:07:50,400 And they also have like a late from DevOps tool chain, which are kind of interesting. 93 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:55,020 They actually have some good white papery stuff if you're interested in that from a couple years ago. 94 00:07:55,020 --> 00:07:59,780 But yeah, it looks like Broadcom is looking to expand into the software world. 95 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:03,340 You know, not that I might have firsthand experience with that kind of thing. 96 00:08:03,860 --> 00:08:06,660 But it is, it is, it'll be fun to see what they do. 97 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:17,160 And as people often remind you in this kind of coverage, the real sort of insider popcorn eating events are to see if they purchase anything else or acquire, I should say. 98 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:29,080 And if you're really interested in more commentary, we talked about this last week on my other podcast, Software Defined Talk, you know, and there's some links to that Nancy Goring piece and, and other things as well. 99 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:30,720 And I'll link to the register in our show notes. 100 00:08:31,300 --> 00:08:31,360 Right. 101 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,540 So did you, did this get your, your, your blood going, Richard and Jared? 102 00:08:35,860 --> 00:08:38,120 Were you, did you spend three hours reading about this? 103 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,900 I think I just did the, the Cocker Spaniel head tilt. 104 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:43,040 Like that was about it. 105 00:08:43,100 --> 00:08:44,780 Like, that's kind of interesting. 106 00:08:44,980 --> 00:08:51,020 I mean, you know, it's funny when you have kind of unconventional purchases, when Amazon does buy Whole Foods, you have some of these other ones. 107 00:08:51,060 --> 00:08:52,640 You're like, oh, that's kind of wacky and cool. 108 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:53,940 I can see some synergy there. 109 00:08:54,240 --> 00:09:01,340 But sometimes when the old guards get together, it's just like, well, you're just kind of beating together these two old companies with a stick and assuming they're going to merge together. 110 00:09:01,500 --> 00:09:02,280 Well, I don't know. 111 00:09:02,380 --> 00:09:04,100 Maybe there's a benefit of the doubt in there. 112 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:06,040 There must be some good strategy to spend. 113 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,040 What was it like 19 billion or something like that there? 114 00:09:09,420 --> 00:09:09,640 Yeah. 115 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:24,220 I think, I mean, I, I, I still, I read this multiple times and I still don't believe it, but I think it's the largest software acquisition ever, uh, which, which, uh, which must be true because people keep saying that, uh, like all things people say over and over and over again. 116 00:09:24,220 --> 00:09:33,120 But yeah, that is, uh, that is large, you know, speaking of, uh, I got my $10 of, of Amazon money by shopping at Whole Foods yesterday and spending $10. 117 00:09:33,780 --> 00:09:34,780 So, uh, it's working. 118 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:35,880 Things are looking up this week. 119 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:36,200 Yeah. 120 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:37,200 Yeah. 121 00:09:37,980 --> 00:09:40,060 Have y'all been in a Whole Foods recently? 122 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,180 They are like, they are like prime tactic in there. 123 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,360 They just like, this prime is everywhere and they wear prime t-shirts. 124 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:47,700 It really is. 125 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:49,080 Uh, they're sort of taking that over. 126 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,700 Still the same good, uh, food and everything they have. 127 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,720 But man, they're really going to town on that. 128 00:09:55,340 --> 00:09:55,440 Yeah. 129 00:09:55,460 --> 00:09:58,040 Which probably touches on that, uh, next item you had. 130 00:09:58,100 --> 00:09:59,880 We'll skip over the next, next one just for a moment. 131 00:09:59,880 --> 00:10:05,580 Cause that whole Walmart choosing Azure thing, I think is in reaction to your, uh, your priming of, of Whole Foods. 132 00:10:05,680 --> 00:10:05,780 No. 133 00:10:06,820 --> 00:10:08,680 Oh, of course it must be. 134 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:11,060 That's, this is all very planned out as always. 135 00:10:11,180 --> 00:10:11,580 Of course. 136 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:13,020 Sort of the segues. 137 00:10:13,180 --> 00:10:26,120 But yeah, I, uh, I just read this this morning that, uh, Walmart, uh, chose, chose, choose, uh, Microsoft Azure as their, uh, you know, I didn't read the wording closely, but as their cloud, public cloud partner. 138 00:10:26,260 --> 00:10:39,160 And, uh, which, uh, I guess makes sense if there, if you accept the premise that there are three major public cloud, uh, vendors, at least for North American companies, if not, uh, you know, the list gets a little longer if you go global. 139 00:10:39,940 --> 00:10:53,660 I should say, uh, I, I don't want to speak on behalf of the Canadian, uh, but if you accept that, then basically if you're in retail, you have two choices between Microsoft and Google and, uh, they, they, they chose Azure. 140 00:10:53,760 --> 00:11:05,960 Now, what I thought was interesting, uh, about this, I mean, as something to notice is there was much emphasis placed on, um, servicing what I would almost call internal facing stuff. 141 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:23,360 Right now it seemed to be in the service. And by, by that, I mean, um, consumer facing stuff would be like, if you go to walmart.com and all the stuff we as individuals would interact with to buy things, whereas internal things would be sort of like software that Walmart uses to run their own business. 142 00:11:23,980 --> 00:11:34,940 And, and so, uh, there was some commentary about being able to use Microsoft machine learning and analytics stuff to get a better sense of whatever running their business better. 143 00:11:34,940 --> 00:11:49,680 And, and no doubt also some other stuff like, you know, targeting and stuff like that, which, which I think is, uh, now that I'm saying it is notable, uh, it's a notable little thing in the sense that I think, I think there's sort of like anecdotal agreement that Google's analytics stuff is awesome. 144 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:56,260 And so, uh, and so, uh, for some reason, not that it's not, not, uh, valid, but, uh, Walmart was impressed with the jurors stuff. 145 00:11:56,380 --> 00:11:57,680 So, uh, that's great. 146 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:00,040 They'll be, they'll be doing more public cloud stuff. 147 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:14,940 And I think, and then finally one more thing, like, um, it's really not that surprising too much anymore, but I think, I think maybe the next big round of, uh, tipping pointy kind of stuff around public cloud is, is exactly the sort of using it for your internal operation. 148 00:12:14,940 --> 00:12:27,200 Uh, and I think hearing more and more of those stories will be, uh, fun ongoing and educational about like the, uh, the blurring, if not sort of like melting of public versus private cloud usage. 149 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:28,600 Yeah. 150 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:33,200 I mean, there's obviously some commentary that Walmart's been a pretty public open stack user. 151 00:12:33,420 --> 00:12:34,620 And does that mean that's waning? 152 00:12:34,820 --> 00:12:50,060 And I think as always, this reflects that, you know, beat the multi-cloud drum, I guess, but you know, you, you do make, it does make sense to use really innovative machine learning in the public cloud and maybe doing some, some data analytics there or edge processing or fun stuff like that. 153 00:12:50,060 --> 00:12:58,260 That does not negate what is probably a decade or two migration, even if you started today to stop using private infrastructure for a company of that size. 154 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:03,000 So this feels more like a diversification story than some sort of migration story. 155 00:13:03,100 --> 00:13:09,580 I think it's just, they're being smart and they're also choosing a cloud provider that probably competes with them less often than the other ones will. 156 00:13:10,820 --> 00:13:13,940 Yeah, I guess, I guess that's another artfully planned segue. 157 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:22,580 There's a, there's a piece over and built to adapt that, uh, that, that was just published today, uh, that, that I was, uh, mostly writing. 158 00:13:22,580 --> 00:13:34,800 And, uh, it's all about like selecting which type of cloud and, and, and as, as, as with, uh, the brevity given to it, it doesn't, uh, it sort of like leaves you slightly more confused than knowing exactly what to do. 159 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:45,320 But it, uh, it, it, it goes, it goes over like my, my usual kind of survey of what analysts are saying and also, uh, what, what organizations out there are doing and how they're sorting through, uh, cloud choices. 160 00:13:45,500 --> 00:14:03,140 And I think, I think, uh, you know, tragically, I'm not sure that, uh, at least, at least this part of it is a pivotal, uh, customer, but, you know, I was linking to one of my favorite stories recently, how, uh, how Chick-fil-A is actually running like tiny, relatively tiny, tiny Kubernetes instances in store. 161 00:14:03,140 --> 00:14:13,480 To, uh, I don't know, make sure the waffle fries are cooked crispy, but it's interesting to think about all the different Chick-fil-A locations and how they have a, um, what would you call that? 162 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,100 Like we used to call that a federated cloud. 163 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:26,020 I don't know, but, but the, how they have sort of like this, this clustery kind of, um, it's, it's sort of like a private community cloud to be silly about it. 164 00:14:26,460 --> 00:14:43,080 Um, but yeah, it's, it's, I think it's a model for what you would expect to see in a lot of, uh, whether it's retail stores or organizations that have tons of physical locations where they want one, one sort of multi-cloud functional way of managing all of their IT, uh, in a fun way. 165 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,940 So I don't think that talk's been posted yet, but it'll be fun to go see that. 166 00:14:46,980 --> 00:14:53,420 And, you know, I went to a Chick-fil-A recently for the first time in a long time and, uh, my nephew works there. 167 00:14:53,420 --> 00:14:56,660 So I got the inside track on the whole soft situation. 168 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:03,160 I don't know if y'all have been to a Chick-fil-A recently, but they have, they're crazy with sauces, lots of sauces. 169 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:08,760 His recommendation was the, uh, the Szechuan one, which, uh, or whatever the version they have there, which was fun. 170 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:16,120 Yeah, they're, uh, yeah, I've been to their headquarters a couple of times in their cafeterias, like you just walk in and grab Chick-fil-A sandwiches, which gosh, that would be dangerous. 171 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,700 So it's, uh, it's awesome, but, but terrifying. 172 00:15:19,220 --> 00:15:26,660 But yeah, that's a, that's sort of distributed edge cloud, federated cloud, whatever you call it, assuming they're connected to each other and all that sort of thing. 173 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:27,540 It's neat. 174 00:15:27,660 --> 00:15:29,120 And again, it's just these different paradigms. 175 00:15:29,220 --> 00:15:34,460 It's not replacing all the stuff you did before replaces some things, of course, but I don't know. 176 00:15:34,460 --> 00:15:39,600 I think these are cool diversification stories, not sort of, Hey, this thing just ate this other thing. 177 00:15:39,860 --> 00:15:41,220 And now everyone's doing the new thing. 178 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:43,340 I don't think that's what the reality is. 179 00:15:44,620 --> 00:15:54,840 It's the, it's the classic thing you learn in, uh, or the reoccurring pattern that you learn in, uh, I don't know, computer coverage coverage is that like nothing necessarily dies. 180 00:15:55,060 --> 00:16:01,580 It just gets added to, which is like, uh, what, what, one of my favorite IBM sayings is you never get a new job. 181 00:16:02,060 --> 00:16:08,220 You just, you just add to your existing job, uh, which is very similar to how technology works there. 182 00:16:08,540 --> 00:16:17,140 So then also, uh, related to that there, I was, uh, I think I failed to mention this last time, but there's a new, uh, cloud foundry foundation survey out. 183 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:19,740 And I'll put, we'll put a link in the show notes. 184 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:32,780 Um, there's a good, um, uh, roundup, uh, of, uh, of not only what's in the TFF survey, but in a couple other ones that kind of, it's, you know, I always enjoy the, uh, synthesizing a bunch of different little things together. 185 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:38,520 And, uh, it has a good, good overview of what's in the TFF, uh, survey and other ones. 186 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:48,120 And, and I, and I think, uh, and I, I think we've definitely, uh, seen this evolving over recent, maybe the year or so is there's a lot more discussion about, uh, cost savings. 187 00:16:48,120 --> 00:17:02,780 In addition to what would you call it revenue growth or, or, you know, the, the sort of like optimization that, uh, shift, shifting over to a PAZ and infrastructure platform stuff like this can be, but it's a good overview of what's in that survey. 188 00:17:02,780 --> 00:17:08,860 And maybe we'll come back to talking about it more when I've actually sat down and read it in detail and taken notes. 189 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:10,620 Yeah, that was a good report. 190 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:12,340 Kurt does, uh, Kurt does good work. 191 00:17:12,340 --> 00:17:13,880 So definitely worth a read. 192 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,120 He didn't, of course, I think he puts a little, you know, Hey, be careful. 193 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:18,720 These are vendor sponsored surveys. 194 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,460 Who knows if it's going to give you always the clean take, but there's some trends. 195 00:17:22,540 --> 00:17:23,900 It's showing you some of those things. 196 00:17:23,900 --> 00:17:26,040 So definitely, definitely worth reading. 197 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:35,600 And then, you know, as we kept talking about multi-cloud and these other things, it's been interesting to see Google add a new Los Angeles data center, even to the cost question. 198 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:43,240 They added some pretty cool forecasting tooling so that when you do migrate your stuff, you can actually figure out what you're spending based on credits and consumption. 199 00:17:43,500 --> 00:17:44,580 And, and things like that. 200 00:17:44,660 --> 00:17:47,720 So Google cloud's doing some cool stuff next week is their big show. 201 00:17:48,220 --> 00:17:48,860 I'll be there. 202 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:49,980 A bunch of pivots will be there. 203 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:51,640 There should be some fun things going on. 204 00:17:52,380 --> 00:18:03,380 And, uh, because we love all the clouds, Microsoft just awarded us their consumption partner of the year again for the second straight time, meaning the sort of partner that drove the most consumption on Azure, which is pretty neat. 205 00:18:03,380 --> 00:18:06,520 So yeah, world's multi-cloud, multi-abstraction. 206 00:18:06,900 --> 00:18:10,040 It seems to either this is just confirmation bias or this stuff is real. 207 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:11,860 It's not just showing up in our news feeds. 208 00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:13,600 Hmm. 209 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,720 As we're fond of saying, this, this cloud thing might be a thing. 210 00:18:16,940 --> 00:18:17,560 It might be. 211 00:18:18,540 --> 00:18:24,560 Do you think we'll ever get to a point where we, uh, we stopped saying cloud or what are the opposite of cloud is? 212 00:18:24,660 --> 00:18:30,620 I mean, I feel like, I feel like cloud will be what we'll say instead of like servers or, or, or in just our data center. 213 00:18:30,620 --> 00:18:33,220 And then just, we kind of already do that already, I think. 214 00:18:34,540 --> 00:18:35,820 Yeah, no, I think you're right. 215 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:42,180 I mean, we, we often say like run it on, I think I just saw some new stuff Jared was writing and it's still about, Hey, run this thing on any cloud. 216 00:18:42,180 --> 00:18:44,800 And by that we mean public or private infrastructure. 217 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:45,900 It's just a cloud. 218 00:18:45,900 --> 00:18:48,900 And that seems like that'll be the way we refer to it. 219 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:50,480 Yeah. 220 00:18:50,620 --> 00:18:53,960 Which, which would be kind of funny for the, the etymology of the world word. 221 00:18:54,060 --> 00:19:05,420 Because if I remember originally, like if you go back and read, uh, you know, your networking books, uh, there's always, there's always this cloud in the diagrams, which is, which is to say, we're not going to talk about this part. 222 00:19:05,500 --> 00:19:11,500 And, and then, and then nowadays, if that's sort of like people's assets, they probably know exactly what's in their cloud. 223 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,480 So it's a delightfully, a delightfully ironic description. 224 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:23,820 Well, uh, and then finally, before we get to, uh, Oh, I forgot to put that in before we get to, uh, uh, talking about PCS 2.2. 225 00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:33,320 Uh, I think I, I just finished publishing, uh, three little excerpts from, uh, I don't know, this sounds pompous, but the third edition of my cloud native journey book. 226 00:19:33,780 --> 00:19:45,380 Um, and, uh, I, I had one on compliance that I was writing up and, uh, on what the, um, I don't know what the team formation looks like or product teams that, that work on the actual software. 227 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,660 And then today, uh, Jared helped me out a little bit with this one. 228 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:50,640 I posted one on, uh, metrics. 229 00:19:51,200 --> 00:20:03,760 Uh, and the third one, the third one, we'll see what happens because the thing is I, if, if you pay close attention to all of my little comments is, uh, the thing about metrics is you, if you ask people to tell you about metrics, 230 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,380 metrics, they will refuse to answer you. 231 00:20:06,460 --> 00:20:12,560 But I think what happens is if that you actually say, here's what I think metrics are, then they tell you a whole bunch of stuff. 232 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:18,000 It's one of those things where like, no one can really like tell you the content that you need until you take the position. 233 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:25,480 And then it's sort of just like extracts out all of this knowledge they had in their head, like some sort of Athena metrics popping out of their head. 234 00:20:25,620 --> 00:20:33,680 So hopefully people can help me out with that section because it's the, uh, most mysterious, uh, so far, but I'll put links to those in there. 235 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,400 Or if you just go to my like medium profile, that's where I posted them. 236 00:20:37,860 --> 00:20:58,560 So, uh, so on that note, I think, and, and the reason I asked Jared to help out with the metrics thing is because his, uh, his mega blog post of pivotal cloud foundry 2.2 begins with, uh, with metrics, which I think, I think, I think that's, that's a good starting point for us is like, what are, what are the, uh, you start off with something that's been banging around a little bit. 237 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:09,020 And you start off with the five S's model of, uh, of, of keeping track of, I guess, how you're, you're doing your digital transformation or improving your software or whatever. 238 00:21:09,020 --> 00:21:11,820 And, uh, Jared, what are these five S's? 239 00:21:13,100 --> 00:21:19,420 It's really about these business outcomes that we like to jabber on about, you know, at pivotal with our customers. 240 00:21:20,220 --> 00:21:28,540 Nobody gets up in the morning and says, wow, I wish I had me a container today, or I wish I had me a container orchestrator or VM or a cloud today. 241 00:21:28,860 --> 00:21:39,180 They've got some kind of business problem that, you know, needs to be solved and they usually want to rub some technology on it to, you know, improve the, the, the issues that they're having. 242 00:21:39,460 --> 00:21:56,600 And I think that this, this five S's is just a really snazzy conversational way to talk about these things that kind of take this idea of, of metrics and, you know, level them up to the executive, you know, boardroom kind of level away from kind of these feeds and speeds kind of numbers. 243 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:03,300 And into this area of outcomes that, you know, can really make a difference for these companies that are trying to, you know, software better. 244 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:08,300 So we talk about, you know, speed, you know, how quickly can you, you know, release things? 245 00:22:08,740 --> 00:22:16,580 Um, are you able to rev your software, you know, quickly to, to keep up with, you know, the ever changing demands of these, you know, finicky customers? 246 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:23,480 Uh, also this, you know, this idea of stability, you've got to have your systems online and up and running. 247 00:22:23,980 --> 00:22:31,180 Um, and it's really important to have them up and running during these crazy busy business events that you have going on during the year. 248 00:22:31,540 --> 00:22:42,480 Whether it's, you know, Black Friday or Cyber Monday or the launch of a new product when your business systems are just getting taxed with all these new customers that are, you know, signing up for your services. 249 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:46,060 That's when you need your IT and software to perform the most. 250 00:22:46,660 --> 00:22:54,020 And kind of the flip side of that would be scalability, being able to handle the Alaska workloads that, that come and go during, you know, busy times. 251 00:22:54,020 --> 00:23:00,300 And on nights and weekends, when things are at a lull, you want to try and be smart about your resources and your spending there. 252 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:08,440 And then, uh, security, you know, we know that executives will get hauled in front of Congress if their patching practices aren't up to, up to snuff. 253 00:23:08,500 --> 00:23:10,520 So security is a, a big thing. 254 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:11,740 That's a, that's another S. 255 00:23:11,740 --> 00:23:22,460 And then probably the, the final of the five S's is, is this idea of savings where, you know, uh, CIOs are being asked to do, to do more and being asked to do more with less money. 256 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:40,580 So are you able to, you know, right size your IT investments or are you able to retire those enterprise licensing products that, you know, don't quite fit the way that you're developing software these days and go to more of a utility consumption style, uh, way of, of, uh, consuming your IT, IT services. 257 00:23:40,860 --> 00:23:49,880 So those are those five S's and I think it really kind of cuts right through a lot of the, you know, murkiness when it comes to all these, you know, IT, IT products out there. 258 00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:53,940 When you hear that, that was a good summary, Jared. 259 00:23:54,060 --> 00:23:59,220 I mean, I know we've tried to move away from, I don't know, not, not even us, but not talking much as much about vanity metrics. 260 00:23:59,460 --> 00:24:03,680 And, and Coté, I guess you too, are there metrics that you hear that you might go, that's really cool. 261 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,620 And then when you stop and think for a second, like, I don't know if that told me anything. 262 00:24:06,620 --> 00:24:14,880 And I know for me, I've started to get less impressed with even the sort of like how many deployments we do a month only because, I mean, what's a deployment? 263 00:24:15,020 --> 00:24:19,320 I could have, you know, changed the name of a variable or, you know, I could have made something smaller. 264 00:24:19,420 --> 00:24:20,420 I could have updated the database. 265 00:24:20,780 --> 00:24:23,720 So that number alone is interesting. 266 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,860 Or even the Spring Boot downloads, we don't talk about as much now because that's cool. 267 00:24:27,980 --> 00:24:29,820 But what, is that showing usage? 268 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:34,060 Is that showing momentum as much as how many projects created at start.spring.io? 269 00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:35,400 That seems like a legit number. 270 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:36,600 I'm starting a new project. 271 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,840 That's not just a download in a CI pipeline. 272 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:48,280 So are there numbers, I guess, I'm flipping the interview around, I mean, Coté or Jared, that you've kind of gotten more lukewarm on over time that you feel like might just be a vanity metric? 273 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:50,580 Well, I agree. 274 00:24:50,660 --> 00:24:56,640 I mean, the framing I would use is like, because I agree, I agree with what you're saying is I think, I don't know what the time period is. 275 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:58,020 So I'm just going to throw something out. 276 00:24:58,120 --> 00:25:06,560 But I think there's a subset of metrics that are important for the first year, let's say, to sort of like track your improvement. 277 00:25:07,260 --> 00:25:11,860 And like you're saying early on, like tracking the number of deploys you do during a period. 278 00:25:12,060 --> 00:25:13,180 I mean, I don't know. 279 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,580 I always use a week as like the period of releasing. 280 00:25:16,820 --> 00:25:26,840 And I think it's important to like track, I guess you would have one release for a week, but tracking the rate or velocity, not to get all wrapped up in strong velocity terms. 281 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:37,700 But tracking the velocity of your releases is important just to like see if you're improving, just like, you know, when I'm constantly trying to live longer by losing weight, I have to depress myself early in the morning each day. 282 00:25:38,120 --> 00:25:39,800 So it's important to track that metric. 283 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,400 And I think it's good to him to that. 284 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,580 And similarly, like download stuff would be for that. 285 00:25:45,900 --> 00:25:54,040 Like once you reach ubiquity, you only really want to monitor if it goes down, so to speak. 286 00:25:54,540 --> 00:25:55,760 That's a great point. 287 00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:00,500 I mean, I think there's probably different metrics in year one than years, you know, two through seven or something like that. 288 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:01,380 Yeah. 289 00:26:01,620 --> 00:26:20,020 And I think, I mean, to answer your question slightly differently, I think one that like, that maybe is to use the Tyler Cohen way of thinking about it, or Cowan, like underrated is, is tracking stuff you've learned, which is really difficult to figure out. 290 00:26:20,020 --> 00:26:26,920 But the whole point, but the whole point, not the whole point, not the whole point, one of the main points of improving the way that you do your software is that you should experiment and try things out. 291 00:26:27,420 --> 00:26:30,660 And, and, and as, as, as, as people will say, fail a lot. 292 00:26:30,660 --> 00:26:40,880 And I think, I think realizing that with software, learning something, which is to say failing, and then eventually succeeding is incredibly valuable. 293 00:26:41,780 --> 00:26:46,980 Like, like, it would be helpful, I think, to start tracking, like, we finally got this right. 294 00:26:47,660 --> 00:26:50,260 And it took this amount of learning to figure it out. 295 00:26:50,640 --> 00:27:05,920 Because I think, in my experience, like, I don't think this is just IT organizations, but I think every single human endeavor, especially in business, like, is really bad at calibrating on how much effort goes into doing something, especially when it comes to how much learning is required. 296 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:20,680 So, that would be a nice metric that I don't think people track very much to sort of get in people's space a lot more to kind of, like, what's the word, acculturate, or to get people used to this idea that, like, we're failing. 297 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,200 And just, I guess, one more thing, and then I'll stop talking. 298 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:24,700 Apparently, I had a lot of coffee today. 299 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:34,440 But I think you hear a lot about, like, in the DevOps, the SRE world, about, like, celebrating failure and having blameless postmortems and things like that. 300 00:27:34,820 --> 00:27:40,040 And I think what I'm suggesting is another version of this, like, it's not really like a blameless postmortem. 301 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:48,240 It's sort of like a realistic, you know, how we failed the success sort of report that would be nice for people to select on. 302 00:27:48,740 --> 00:27:52,440 So, hopefully, I bought Jared enough time to think of an answer. 303 00:27:54,360 --> 00:27:57,800 For me, I think the context is what's really important. 304 00:27:58,100 --> 00:28:03,920 You know, as you said, Richard, the vanity metrics about number of deployments, you know, per day can be kind of misleading. 305 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:12,380 What I think is really compelling is when organizations are really honest with themselves and take a look at their broader portfolio of applications. 306 00:28:12,740 --> 00:28:16,960 You know, these organizations are dealing with, you know, hundreds, thousands of applications. 307 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:24,040 Have they done sort of the hard work to do an audit for what their most important, say, 30 or 50 applications are? 308 00:28:24,540 --> 00:28:29,540 And do they have this, you know, sort of 5S scoreboard for each of those 30 applications? 309 00:28:29,780 --> 00:28:35,080 It's one thing to have some kind of your billing service update or some kind of activation service update. 310 00:28:35,540 --> 00:28:42,700 That's all well and good, but how are you going about this, you know, massive modernization effort across all of your applications? 311 00:28:42,700 --> 00:28:53,440 To me, I think that that, you know, portfolio and this idea of taking these very powerful, but sometimes difficult to implement ideas and doing the hard work to bring those to more places is what's really impressive. 312 00:28:53,440 --> 00:29:00,780 So, I like that more holistic view rather than sort of the numbers that can be eye-popping, but you're not really quite sure what they mean. 313 00:29:02,460 --> 00:29:11,820 So, then getting back to the Pivotal Cloud Foundry 2.2 release, tell us, you know, tell us what I'm sure everyone is interested in. 314 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,140 What are the PKS updates? 315 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:16,220 What can people look forward to there? 316 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:31,280 Yeah, I think with PKS, we've done a lot of talking to customers about all this Kubernetes business, and it turns out the killer feature, the thing that people really want, is that they want Kubernetes to work. 317 00:29:32,260 --> 00:29:36,820 And it turns out that that's a lot more difficult than it sounds. 318 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:46,900 So, you know, we've really put a focus on this, you know, operability of Kubernetes, and we have this distributed tool chain called Bosch that, you know, works really well. 319 00:29:46,920 --> 00:30:00,120 For, you know, distributed systems like Kubernetes, and so this is really, you know, taking the magic of Bosch and continuing to, you know, let Kubernetes, you know, kind of take advantage of these different capabilities. 320 00:30:00,420 --> 00:30:14,360 So, if you think back to these S's, you know, being able to have, you know, some multi-master kind of, you know, capabilities, some multi-AZ kind of deployments, you know, keeping your Kubernetes clusters online and available is really key. 321 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:24,720 So, there's now a fourth layer of high availability that's in, you know, PKS, and that's something that users of our app platform have come to know and love over the last, you know, several years. 322 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,180 So, I think that's probably the main thing. 323 00:30:28,420 --> 00:30:37,240 And then there's also the notion of, you know, keeping up with what the Kubernetes project is doing, and, you know, they release every quarter. 324 00:30:37,540 --> 00:30:50,160 And so, PKS 1.1, rather, includes Kubernetes 1.10, which is the latest, you know, stable version of that project that's running on the Google Kubernetes service, GKE. 325 00:30:50,420 --> 00:30:59,060 So, we want to give customers that vanilla Kubernetes experience using the latest stable version, and we want it to be up and running for customers. 326 00:30:59,220 --> 00:31:02,080 Those are probably the two big highlights I'd flog there. 327 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:04,940 That makes sense. 328 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:11,120 I like your take on the highest priority story for Kubernetes instances. 329 00:31:11,820 --> 00:31:12,200 That's good. 330 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:19,860 Well, then another one, I mean, one of the primary S's, what are the highlights you would have about the security features that are in this release? 331 00:31:20,900 --> 00:31:21,520 Security, yeah. 332 00:31:21,540 --> 00:31:25,040 There's always a lot of stuff that we're doing with security. 333 00:31:25,500 --> 00:31:39,260 And what I've noticed is, as you kind of go through these releases, is that there's, you know, two really important security features that seem to take on more and more responsibilities in the platform over time. 334 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:53,700 And you all have talked about this idea of CredHub, this secure way to manage secrets in Cloud Foundry, how to, you know, manage them and keep them out of, you know, clear text and configuration files and manifest and so on. 335 00:31:53,880 --> 00:32:00,240 And so, you know, CredHub, you know, has started to do a whole lot in Cloud Foundry over the last year or so. 336 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:05,760 And each successive release, it just takes on that much more credential management, your responsibilities. 337 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,600 So there's more CredHub goodness in 2.2. 338 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,900 There's even a CredHub service broker. 339 00:32:12,100 --> 00:32:16,580 So you can use CredHub with your so-called off-platform services. 340 00:32:16,580 --> 00:32:27,520 So if you want your ERP or some other system to work with your application platform, you can now have CredHub in the mix of how credentials are managed and all of that stuff. 341 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:34,720 And then the other really important security feature that continues to be additive with each release is TLS. 342 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:40,240 So being able to have, you know, data encrypted in transit between more and more components. 343 00:32:40,900 --> 00:32:43,740 And, you know, Cloud Foundry is a pretty complicated entity. 344 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:51,900 And so there's, you know, dozens or hundreds of different communications pathways throughout all the different services that run inside the guts of the platform. 345 00:32:52,140 --> 00:33:06,180 And being able to have TLS on those routes is really important to give customers just that much more security that the client and server in each of those, you know, transactions is who they say they are. 346 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:14,760 And that you're going to have a lot less risk of a breach or sort of a bad actor getting in between those pathways that can siphon off your data. 347 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:21,400 So CredHub and TLS kind of continue to be really interesting themes that we roll out, you know, more and more of over time. 348 00:33:22,140 --> 00:33:29,400 You know, a couple other things that jumped out to me, Jared, were, you know, we just started talking the whole podcast about infrastructure and public cloud, private cloud. 349 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:36,000 And I don't know, at some point, if you do automation right, the private, at least from the outside looking in, isn't dramatically different than the public. 350 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:38,020 And there were at least three things that stood out to me. 351 00:33:38,060 --> 00:33:41,780 There was the multi-data center on vSphere and multi-site deployment. 352 00:33:42,020 --> 00:33:45,160 There's the pivotal-ready architecture, kind of drop all this thing in there. 353 00:33:45,420 --> 00:33:46,600 And the Azure Stack support. 354 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:50,920 Mind kind of digging into those three real quick and what you see the implications are? 355 00:33:52,000 --> 00:34:00,960 Yeah, I think with what you're seeing is that there's a lot of customers that are seeing the benefits of these, you know, five S's on top of an app platform. 356 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:07,860 And so, when they have that success, they want to try and deploy this in more ways, in more places. 357 00:34:08,740 --> 00:34:24,480 And so, the vSphere thing is really a neat way to expand capacity when you've got, you know, maybe some data sovereignty requirements to try and contend with, where it's easier to, you know, make things work in more on-premises, you know, sites. 358 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:29,440 So, you've got a single instance of the application platform running into vSphere locations. 359 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:34,880 So, it's a nice, easy way to scale that out without adding operational complexity. 360 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:46,740 And then, on the Azure Stack stuff, I think that opens up a whole new kind of series of use cases where, you know, Azure Stack, it looks just like public cloud, you know, Azure with a few configuration differences. 361 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:59,560 So, now you can get, you know, Azure Stack, you know, on a cruise ship or a Chick-fil-A or any other kind of location that doesn't quite make sense for a whole enterprise data center or doesn't make sense for a public cloud. 362 00:34:59,960 --> 00:35:04,860 So, if you've got this nice, you know, tweener place, you can run your compute and run your applications. 363 00:35:05,860 --> 00:35:13,040 And then, I think the last one you mentioned is Pivot-Ready Architecture, which uses hyperconverged infrastructure from Dell. 364 00:35:13,780 --> 00:35:22,660 And so, if you really want to get PCF up and going, you know, quickly, you certainly can do that with vSphere and your private cloud. 365 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:28,100 You've got to go through the usual infrastructure mechanics there to add capacity to your private cloud. 366 00:35:28,100 --> 00:35:33,600 But with PRA, you just drop in an appliance, you know, plug it in, and you're good to go. 367 00:35:33,740 --> 00:35:43,820 So, it's a really no-muss-no-fuss kind of way to get PCF up and going, you know, very quickly and have it be tested and validated by our friends at Dell EMC. 368 00:35:45,060 --> 00:35:45,780 Yeah, that's cool. 369 00:35:45,860 --> 00:35:55,640 I know for a lot of people, if they want to play with some of these, Pivotal Web Services is a great place to try out, you know, the new auto-scaling stuff and some of those non-opsy features since you don't have access to an ops manager. 370 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,300 But all the dev features are there, people should try out. 371 00:35:58,380 --> 00:36:00,460 I wanted to switch gears with you real quick. 372 00:36:00,700 --> 00:36:10,020 And, you know, one thing now that PKS is hitting this kind of regular rhythm and what you're doing with PAS, and I guess I wanted to peek behind the curtain just a little bit. 373 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:16,220 And maybe you can quick explain, how in the world are you wrangling dozens of teams at this point to help message a release? 374 00:36:16,420 --> 00:36:25,440 You know, I think maybe for teams that are starting to grow or even within enterprise, this idea of actually having marketing and engineering, I don't know, actually like each other and work well together might be weird. 375 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,000 You and I have some experience there. 376 00:36:27,420 --> 00:36:35,520 So what's kind of worked here for teams that are maybe thinking about how do you do more agile marketing on top of a very distributed set of engineering teams? 377 00:36:36,740 --> 00:36:38,140 That's an interesting question. 378 00:36:38,140 --> 00:36:46,940 And I think that there's really a lot that, you know, agile development and software has a lot to teach a number of different disciplines. 379 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:53,580 I think I heard some folks on Twitter saying they wish they could use, you know, GitHub for their presentation, your source control. 380 00:36:53,980 --> 00:37:02,820 So all of these really useful development tools are having broad applicability in just how you manage information, how you manage your content. 381 00:37:03,620 --> 00:37:14,340 And so if you think about what makes for a high-velocity, you know, engineering or development team, those are things that also make for, you know, high-velocity, you know, content teams or high-velocity, you know, content marketing teams. 382 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:19,420 And so I think that, you know, certainly the good tools is really important. 383 00:37:19,420 --> 00:37:25,700 So there's kind of the usual ways that you can, you know, collaborate with, you know, GitHub and things along those lines. 384 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:34,740 What's also really important is giving people a frictionless way to see their content, you know, get out there into the wild. 385 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:41,180 So making it as easy as possible for, you know, product owners, product managers to see the fruits of their labor. 386 00:37:41,780 --> 00:37:53,100 So for a lot of us on the product side, that means a lot of editorial work to spruce up the content and get it out there so that the product folks really see the impact that their content has. 387 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:55,380 That's probably one thing. 388 00:37:55,860 --> 00:38:00,980 And then you're getting out in front of each of the releases that you're doing. 389 00:38:01,100 --> 00:38:02,580 We do releases every quarter here. 390 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:12,920 So being able to probably do a lot of the heavy lifting and do a lot of the work on the product side before you go to product owners is really important. 391 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:24,600 So you're educating, you're involved with documentation, you're on the stand-ups, you have a really good sense of what's happening in the product so that when you go to product owners, there's a more, I guess, 392 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:30,560 multiple piece of clay for them to work with, if you will, as far as the text and content that they have to work with. 393 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,020 Yeah, I think I've noticed that a lot with what you've done. 394 00:38:33,020 --> 00:38:35,900 I mean, it's about showing up in a lot of cases, building some trust. 395 00:38:35,980 --> 00:38:40,060 You're not just airlifting the week before release when everyone's packed going, hey, what did you ship? 396 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:42,300 And then, of course, the trust isn't there. 397 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:48,140 So it seems like actually being there throughout all the time and the team knows to go to our team and talk to them. 398 00:38:48,580 --> 00:38:53,800 I don't know, I guess that's the piece of advice I would share from a lot of the stuff I watch you do is be in the conversations. 399 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,480 And then it isn't this one massive lift at the end. 400 00:38:56,540 --> 00:38:58,500 It's really just kind of an incremental delivery. 401 00:38:58,760 --> 00:38:59,900 I don't know, maybe just like software. 402 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:03,440 Yeah, I think that's really the thing. 403 00:39:03,540 --> 00:39:04,860 There's a repeatable cadence. 404 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:09,400 And I think the first release I did was PCF 1.8. 405 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:10,840 And that was a little rough. 406 00:39:10,980 --> 00:39:13,860 And it's gotten a little bit better with each successive time. 407 00:39:14,100 --> 00:39:16,020 And there's still lots more to do. 408 00:39:16,100 --> 00:39:20,260 But you learn a little bit more about each thing as it comes up. 409 00:39:20,300 --> 00:39:22,320 And you just refine and iterate and get better. 410 00:39:23,060 --> 00:39:28,960 You've got to think about the metrics that you want to have to try and manage that whole process so you can improve things over time. 411 00:39:30,900 --> 00:39:38,480 Well, speaking of generating lots of content and doing that, I always think of it as like internal journalism that you have to do. 412 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:42,160 You have a beat of covering the release. 413 00:39:42,580 --> 00:39:44,080 So you have to just track it. 414 00:39:44,220 --> 00:39:49,100 And eventually, you'll publish something, do some reporting and analysis as a word. 415 00:39:49,100 --> 00:39:57,860 But, yeah, I mean, I think it's evident in the series of release note posts you've done and other people that they get longer in a good way. 416 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,340 So y'all are able to collect more details, right? 417 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,700 Which is, as I think I was saying when we talked about this briefly last time, right? 418 00:40:04,720 --> 00:40:06,240 Like, that's what I want from release notes. 419 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,320 I want to know, like, all the stuff. 420 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:18,480 And then in a blog post of it, it's good to summarize the things that are important instead of just having, like, every single stuff that's changed, essentially. 421 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:26,380 But in addition to that, like, you know, since you work on this stuff, are there any white papers we have out that you would highlight or point people towards? 422 00:40:27,260 --> 00:40:32,700 Yeah, I think there's one that's been pretty interesting to see the reception to. 423 00:40:33,540 --> 00:40:39,300 One of the big things that we've talked about is, you know, Cloud Foundry as the standard for your app platform. 424 00:40:39,580 --> 00:40:43,580 And Kubernetes is the standard for your, you know, how you want to run containers. 425 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:51,880 And then there's a third standard that folks should really be taking a look at for how you attach backing services to Cloud Foundry and Kubernetes. 426 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,900 And that's the Open Service Broker API. 427 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,700 And it's gotten a little bit of, you know, attention on Twitter, you know, recently. 428 00:40:59,300 --> 00:41:03,280 But it's a really slick piece of tech that's been around for a few years. 429 00:41:03,500 --> 00:41:11,900 And as people are realizing that they're going to have an app platform, they're going to have containers, and there's going to be some serverless and function stuff in there. 430 00:41:12,420 --> 00:41:22,560 They want to figure out ways they can, you know, add services to all those different things, whether it's an API gateway or messaging queues or databases or data stores or what have you. 431 00:41:22,780 --> 00:41:27,880 And this Open Service Broker has been, you know, picked up by a lot of the communities out there. 432 00:41:28,100 --> 00:41:37,980 And it's been a really a godsend, I think, for a lot of, you know, developers and operators that they have one mechanism, one set of APIs to know about services. 433 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:44,760 So if you want to attach anything to Cloud Foundry or Kubernetes, the Open Service Broker API is a great way to do that. 434 00:41:44,760 --> 00:42:05,280 So Matt McNinney, Pivotal Product Manager and co-chair of the Open Service Broker API project, and I sat down and cranked out a paper that goes through, I think, a lot of the anatomy of a service broker, what it is, how you should use it, best practices, use cases, and so on, and really explores, you know, why it's become this de facto pattern. 435 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:23,940 So as we take a look at this, you know, see if things that are happening in distributed systems, it's changing constantly, but Cloud Foundry, Kubernetes, and the Open Service Broker are three really bedrock abstractions that, you know, enterprises should, you know, spend some time getting to know to help them, you know, navigate this world of digital business. 436 00:42:25,700 --> 00:42:30,380 Well, before we wrap up, so first of all, thanks for being on to go over that with us. 437 00:42:30,500 --> 00:42:37,740 I'll put a link to the thrilling blog post that we've been talking about, and it's definitely worth a read. 438 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:47,520 And also, you know, one other thing that I think is nice about it is it collects together, like, videos and other resources to dig further into it, which is good. 439 00:42:47,600 --> 00:43:01,360 But just as a little bit of follow-up, so last week, Richard, you were in town here in Austin, and I got to – I think I missed the first eight to ten minutes because apparently I have an always-late syndrome, so sorry about that. 440 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:07,280 I'm sure there was a great introduction to yourself and other things, but I saw your – I don't know. 441 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:22,040 It's basically like the .NET version of Josh Long's talk, where you're sort of like, here's how you can do .NET stuff and run it on Pivotal Cloud Foundry and get all the benefits that you would expect from a microservices framework. 442 00:43:22,780 --> 00:43:24,260 And it was a good talk. 443 00:43:24,700 --> 00:43:28,580 People seem to be paying attention, which is the criteria that I use often. 444 00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:32,820 And then also there were several questions afterwards, which was nice to see. 445 00:43:32,820 --> 00:43:40,660 But in case anyone's listening, you should definitely ask Richard to come tell you about doing modern .NET development in a cloud-native way. 446 00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:46,440 Because there's actually – I think maybe there was three demos, which is pretty impressive for a marketing guy. 447 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:48,180 So good job on that. 448 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:54,360 Yeah, so you've given me the nicest compliment you've ever given me, a backhanded compliment, which was also good. 449 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:55,440 So thank you. 450 00:43:55,540 --> 00:43:57,640 I was touched that you showed up. 451 00:43:57,680 --> 00:43:58,480 That meant a lot to me. 452 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:00,280 That's right. 453 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:05,180 And you also recommended – hopefully this is not another inadvertent backhanded compliment. 454 00:44:05,300 --> 00:44:10,040 I might have just only one – I think I only have one side to my hand, unfortunately. 455 00:44:10,240 --> 00:44:11,360 I was born with that defect. 456 00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:22,080 But also I think you've had one of the best little jokes possible that I've heard recently, which was there's a bunch of pickles out there, so maybe you can stuff those in your pockets and take them home. 457 00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:35,880 And I was actually kind of – I was missed because the catering had been from Schlottsky's, which is actually an Austin-based company that I think is owned by a private equity firm and combined with Cinnabon now, so it has more of a national presence. 458 00:44:36,620 --> 00:44:39,260 But their pickles are delicious. 459 00:44:39,460 --> 00:44:43,620 They're like those classic crispy dill pickles that are really hard to find. 460 00:44:43,980 --> 00:44:48,840 And I would have totally swiped a bowl of those pickles, but someone was faster than me. 461 00:44:49,380 --> 00:44:51,580 So next time, I'm going to be fast. 462 00:44:52,140 --> 00:44:53,340 Yeah, those pickles are my jam. 463 00:44:53,420 --> 00:44:53,960 They're good stuff. 464 00:44:54,060 --> 00:44:58,920 I was really hoping someone would take a thing of pickles while I was talking and just plow through like a plate of them. 465 00:44:58,980 --> 00:45:00,720 That would have really distracted me for two hours. 466 00:45:00,860 --> 00:45:01,420 That would have been good. 467 00:45:02,540 --> 00:45:05,800 Well, next time I'm at one of your talks, I know what I'm going to do. 468 00:45:06,620 --> 00:45:07,740 That'll be great. 469 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:08,540 Lock it in. 470 00:45:08,860 --> 00:45:15,960 We'll just – we'll pass the pickles around like a reverse collection plate and people can punch through it. 471 00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:20,400 Well, as always, this has been Pivotal Conversations. 472 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:27,000 Before – and then the other thing before we wrap up is to remind you that we have SpringOne Platform coming up soon. 473 00:45:28,100 --> 00:45:34,620 I'm going to be leaving for Amsterdam and then coming back to Maryland on September 24th to 27th. 474 00:45:34,980 --> 00:45:36,420 And it's going to be a great conference. 475 00:45:37,580 --> 00:45:42,540 There's lots of sort of summaries of last year, lots of great videos you can look at. 476 00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:50,180 But I'm sure there'll be lots of conversation about Pivotal Container Services, PKS, using Kubernetes in production, 477 00:45:50,460 --> 00:45:54,560 and then also using the Pivotal Application Service in production, and Spring Boot. 478 00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:58,540 So there might even be some .NET talks if we've done our job correctly. 479 00:45:58,900 --> 00:46:04,940 But also what I find interesting is there'll be lots of talks about how organizations are improving the way that they're doing software. 480 00:46:05,100 --> 00:46:10,500 Lessons learned all the way from making build pipelines to setting up sort of management-level metrics 481 00:46:10,500 --> 00:46:13,480 and pair programming, testing, and everything in between. 482 00:46:13,660 --> 00:46:21,520 So you got your software, your tools, and your technologies, and your meatware, your sort of management and process methodology. 483 00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:27,940 So if you're really interested in that, which you should be, you can go to the show notes at pivotal.io slash podcast. 484 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:34,040 And there's a little $200 off discount code that you can use that has my name in it. 485 00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:36,140 But you should definitely check that out. 486 00:46:36,260 --> 00:46:38,640 And as always, this has been Pivotal Conversation. 487 00:46:38,860 --> 00:46:45,720 If you want to get the back episode or this current one, you can go to soundcloud.com slash pivotalconversation. 488 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:53,180 And more or less every Thursday, these show notes I keep mentioning, we post them at pivotal.io slash podcast. 489 00:46:53,360 --> 00:47:00,340 So you can click around at all the exciting news items that we mentioned and check out some other relevant things, 490 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:04,500 including more information about SpringOne Platform and all that stuff. 491 00:47:04,900 --> 00:47:06,200 So we'll see everyone next time. 492 00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:06,920 Bye-bye.