1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,020 You know, I was told by someone recently, Richard, one of our Dutch colleagues, 2 00:00:05,520 --> 00:00:08,500 that they enjoy the aimless rambling we have at the beginning of the episode. 3 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:14,120 So rather than try to be more professional, let me just tell you one thing I've encountered recently. 4 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:21,560 And that is, well, have you ever tried to move a pet, like a dog, from one, let's say, city or country to another one? 5 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:23,980 I thought you were going to say from, like, room to room. 6 00:00:24,100 --> 00:00:25,120 Like, yeah, I have done that, Coté. 7 00:00:25,260 --> 00:00:27,560 It's, you know, pretty normal if you own a pet. 8 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:32,000 No, I haven't actually moved one long distances because that idea of sticking them in a crate 9 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,180 or being worse, bringing them on the plane with me like some sort of crazy person, 10 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:36,840 neither of those sound appealing to me. 11 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:38,700 So I think I would just sell them and buy a new one. 12 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:42,480 That makes me sound heartless, but that's one option. 13 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:48,700 Well, you know, the nominal topic of today's episode is replatforming. 14 00:00:49,020 --> 00:00:51,000 So that is a pattern that I guess you could use. 15 00:00:51,380 --> 00:00:52,340 Not the lift and shift. 16 00:00:53,940 --> 00:00:57,040 And in the course of doing it, you might move from, let's say, 17 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:02,720 like a Great Dane, a series of small shih tzus. 18 00:01:03,260 --> 00:01:06,820 And so you'd have a bunch of microservices that coordinate with each other instead of a monolith. 19 00:01:06,940 --> 00:01:09,400 Because, you know, every time you try to teach that monolith a new trick, 20 00:01:09,460 --> 00:01:11,020 you just have to recompile the whole thing. 21 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:12,040 Here's the issue. 22 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:12,900 It's easy to stick. 23 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:15,080 I'm trying to. 24 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:17,400 It's easy to put the thing in a crate. 25 00:01:17,780 --> 00:01:21,720 But the problem is, apparently, the airlines wanting to be, 26 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:23,660 I always think the term humane is kind of funny. 27 00:01:23,940 --> 00:01:24,860 Well, I shouldn't say funny. 28 00:01:24,860 --> 00:01:26,920 It's just incorrect to apply to pets. 29 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:28,540 I mean, but I get where you're going with humane. 30 00:01:28,700 --> 00:01:29,260 Like, what are you going to say? 31 00:01:29,300 --> 00:01:31,560 We're going to be canine main or something? 32 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:32,280 Anyhow. 33 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:32,880 Sure. 34 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:39,660 Apparently, if you want to airlift a dog, they won't do it if it's 85 degrees or higher. 35 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:42,220 Now, I don't know if you remember, but I live in Texas. 36 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,080 So this is presenting some logistical issues. 37 00:01:46,300 --> 00:01:49,900 Because unfortunately, although Pivotal is very kind about helping me relocate, 38 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:54,220 they have not taken on the task of changing the weather in August in Texas. 39 00:01:54,220 --> 00:02:03,780 So if anyone has any ideas about how to move a dog overseas when it's 102 degrees Fahrenheit in Texas, 40 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:06,500 you know, I'd love to hear about that. 41 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,620 That's a challenge that I don't think you can have some snap analysis to solve. 42 00:02:10,920 --> 00:02:11,320 That's true. 43 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,040 I mean, you just have to drive to a cooler state and fly from there. 44 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:14,460 Bam. 45 00:02:15,460 --> 00:02:22,880 Now, this has come under deep consideration here in the Coté-Skotak enterprise. 46 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:28,260 It's looking like, barring a solution, we're going to have what you might call 47 00:02:28,260 --> 00:02:31,780 the road trip to the birth of freedom, where we go to Philadelphia, 48 00:02:32,340 --> 00:02:35,680 where there is a direct flight to Amsterdam on American Airlines. 49 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:36,080 We'll see. 50 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:37,260 We'll see if that solves a problem. 51 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,060 Well, re-platforming. 52 00:02:39,260 --> 00:02:41,320 Why don't you all to introduce yourselves? 53 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:45,060 Why don't we go in alphabetic order by last name? 54 00:02:45,460 --> 00:02:46,500 I believe that's me. 55 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:48,720 My name is Sarah Eamon. 56 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:54,260 And I originally come from labs, but I've been on AppTX unofficially for the last nine months 57 00:02:54,260 --> 00:02:55,600 and officially for the last four months. 58 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:56,880 Awesome. 59 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:58,620 My name is Rohit Kelaphir. 60 00:02:59,020 --> 00:03:01,640 I'm one of the App Transformation Practice Leads. 61 00:03:02,380 --> 00:03:06,460 I've been doing App Transformation for the past four years. 62 00:03:06,580 --> 00:03:10,100 Well, as always, we have a few news items. 63 00:03:10,100 --> 00:03:15,420 So I think the largest one of interest to us is that Poodle. 64 00:03:15,460 --> 00:03:18,380 Container Service, or PKS 1.1, was released. 65 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:20,700 Now, this was sometime last week, right, Richard? 66 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:22,700 I was traveling, so I kind of lost track of time. 67 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:24,020 That's right. 68 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:25,260 So this was last week. 69 00:03:25,580 --> 00:03:29,260 And, you know, we've actually shipped, I think, six times in the last five months. 70 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,700 We've done a lot of little, you know, incremental releases besides the V1. 71 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,300 This is the first kind of bigger release since then. 72 00:03:35,340 --> 00:03:39,040 And this was upgrading the supported version of Kubernetes to 1.10. 73 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:43,380 We added some additional availability options like multi-AZ deployments 74 00:03:43,380 --> 00:03:46,820 and then some pretty cool integrations with other VMware tech like Wavefront 75 00:03:46,820 --> 00:03:48,840 and improved some of the NSX work. 76 00:03:48,940 --> 00:03:49,700 So it was a big release. 77 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:53,300 We're excited about it and already have folks getting going on it, which is great. 78 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:55,520 Now, between the two of you guests, 79 00:03:55,660 --> 00:03:57,700 I'm interested to hear a little bit of commentary here 80 00:03:57,700 --> 00:04:01,040 before we get to the talking about application transformation and the whole, like, 81 00:04:01,380 --> 00:04:04,400 like oftentimes what you hear is, you know, you got your PAS, 82 00:04:04,740 --> 00:04:06,360 formerly just Pivotal Cloud Foundry, 83 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,760 your rapid delivery and your CF push and all that are the cases. 84 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:12,520 And one of them that comes up is you have existing applications 85 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:14,520 that you don't want to run in Kubernetes and PKS. 86 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,420 And I wonder if y'all have some interesting examples of those, 87 00:04:18,500 --> 00:04:23,640 like when you're trying to replatform things or modernize, 88 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,260 you started to think, oh, maybe PKS is a good idea for this. 89 00:04:28,420 --> 00:04:32,200 Yeah, I think a lot of it depends on what level of abstraction 90 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,480 and what outcomes you want from the effort, right? 91 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:40,820 In some cases, lift and shift or just like replatforming it, 92 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:42,620 doing minimal changes to the app, 93 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,780 getting it running with the Java build pack makes sense. 94 00:04:47,540 --> 00:04:52,840 In some cases, you truly want to increase the release frequency, right? 95 00:04:53,280 --> 00:04:55,920 That app is strategic to the business. 96 00:04:56,300 --> 00:05:00,260 So it makes sense to break it down, take it completely all the way to cloud native. 97 00:05:00,780 --> 00:05:04,600 And so then at that point, you are more in the refactoring 98 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,980 or in the modernizing zone, modernization zone. 99 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:14,700 But there is also another category of apps that you really don't want to touch at all. 100 00:05:14,820 --> 00:05:16,360 And you just want operational efficiency. 101 00:05:17,220 --> 00:05:19,820 And these apps generally are gnarly. 102 00:05:19,940 --> 00:05:21,220 They are like stateful. 103 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,280 They have complex networking requirements. 104 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:29,160 Those are the kind of apps that you generally just want to containerize and run on PKS. 105 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,960 So it really depends on what kind of outcomes you want to drive 106 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:35,160 from your app transformation effort. 107 00:05:35,280 --> 00:05:37,140 I actually have some concrete examples of this. 108 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,460 On my last project, we were using PKS. 109 00:05:40,260 --> 00:05:42,880 And there were two use cases. 110 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:48,740 One was that the existing application used an instance of Elasticsearch 111 00:05:48,740 --> 00:05:55,620 where they'd sort of hacked in this plugin to modify the results before they came back. 112 00:05:55,740 --> 00:05:58,760 And there was no way that we could do that without having like full control 113 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:01,260 over the deployment of Elasticsearch. 114 00:06:01,540 --> 00:06:07,060 So we decided to move that Elasticsearch with the wonky plugin onto PKS 115 00:06:07,060 --> 00:06:10,320 because they were already using Docker and everything to deploy this thing. 116 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:12,820 So it was just a very easy move to PKS. 117 00:06:13,020 --> 00:06:16,840 And another instance was they were actually a government customer 118 00:06:16,840 --> 00:06:18,540 or a government subcontractor. 119 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:19,820 And so they had contracts with the government. 120 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:29,440 And some of their government clients or whatever consumers had like an aversion to licensing fees 121 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,900 because they only had so much budget for this product. 122 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:40,680 And to throw in, I think it was Mongo, there's a Mongo licensing fee for using the Mongo tile. 123 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:47,660 So to avoid that licensing fee, they wanted to have the option to like deploy their own database, right? 124 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:52,260 Mongo instance in PKS so that they could deploy their software as a unit 125 00:06:52,260 --> 00:06:56,120 without that licensing fee for those certain clients that couldn't pay it. 126 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:56,880 Oh, that makes sense. 127 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:58,240 Well, yeah, and those are good. 128 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:00,920 The all too common affliction of licensing fees. 129 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:10,260 Well, also in the news, I think one of the main drivers of people, you know, 130 00:07:10,340 --> 00:07:15,740 wanting to update their software is always, you know, the marauding force of Amazon. 131 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:20,200 And it seems like there must be some like giant room. 132 00:07:20,460 --> 00:07:21,420 I don't know if you're supposed to know, 133 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,300 should they just like tape up infinite appendixes on them onto a wall? 134 00:07:25,660 --> 00:07:27,540 But there must be some room over there where they're just like, 135 00:07:27,540 --> 00:07:32,900 they have every single industry in the world and they've prioritized the backlog of trying to take it over. 136 00:07:33,100 --> 00:07:37,260 And in that area, I think it's called distribution company, which, which, you know, 137 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:42,600 if you fall asleep of vertical boredom, that's a pretty big industry there called PillPack, 138 00:07:42,820 --> 00:07:45,020 which I had never heard of, but that sounds nice. 139 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:50,200 I guess they mail bills out to you, kind of like our CVS Caremark system, 140 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:54,060 which, which I guess, I guess what that gets someone like Amazon is, you know, 141 00:07:54,060 --> 00:08:00,500 just some domain knowledge and then like right into a industry that almost seems perfect built for their model of, 142 00:08:00,500 --> 00:08:05,560 you know, selling stuff, which, which will be, it'll be interesting to see what they do there. 143 00:08:05,580 --> 00:08:09,460 And I think also last week before they announced that they have that, 144 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,700 that partnership with like Berkshire Hathaway and JP to like, 145 00:08:14,020 --> 00:08:16,600 I think the idea they're going to come combinate combo, 146 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,840 all their employees and then put them all in the same like healthcare or something. 147 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,020 And then it's like a million people or something. 148 00:08:22,020 --> 00:08:25,240 And they have, they announced the CEO of it, whose name I can never pronounce, 149 00:08:25,380 --> 00:08:26,180 but he's like Dr. 150 00:08:26,260 --> 00:08:30,900 Checklist guy who always seems like he's, nothing's figured out well. 151 00:08:31,220 --> 00:08:35,880 So yeah, there's interesting, interesting, like digital moves going on there. 152 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,500 And no doubt, as we always joke about on my other podcast, 153 00:08:39,700 --> 00:08:41,700 software defined talk when Amazon does something, 154 00:08:41,940 --> 00:08:45,240 there's going to be a whole new industry that is going to, you know, 155 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,980 that you can draw on if you're at Azure or Google cloud for customers, 156 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,260 namely a pharmaceuticals probably are very excited in Amazon now. 157 00:08:53,420 --> 00:08:53,960 Yeah, no doubt. 158 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,400 I mean, it's a good move for them. 159 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,480 As you say, tap into their existing kind of supply chain. 160 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:01,420 And Hey, if you, I guess buy more pills, 161 00:09:01,420 --> 00:09:03,140 you can get free prime or however they, 162 00:09:03,300 --> 00:09:04,400 they kind of couple things together. 163 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:05,000 That'll be cool. 164 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:07,820 But then what was interesting to see is, I mean, 165 00:09:07,820 --> 00:09:09,060 obviously some stocks dropped, 166 00:09:09,060 --> 00:09:11,860 I think it was Walgreens, CVS and some others got a hit, 167 00:09:11,940 --> 00:09:12,880 but at the same time, 168 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:15,340 it's been fun to watch companies like again, Home Depot. 169 00:09:15,340 --> 00:09:20,060 I saw got a story this weekend about how they're kind of coming back against 170 00:09:20,060 --> 00:09:22,720 Amazon or even Kroger getting into driverless delivery. 171 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:26,560 So the old guard isn't necessarily sitting there waiting to get overtaken at 172 00:09:26,560 --> 00:09:27,020 this point, 173 00:09:27,020 --> 00:09:31,040 which I actually think is an exciting subplot to the sort of digital giants 174 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:34,260 taking over the world is kind of the entrenched interests are actually 175 00:09:34,260 --> 00:09:36,600 fighting back a bit, which is always a fun storyline. 176 00:09:36,900 --> 00:09:37,180 For sure. 177 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,700 I remember I was looking at the picture of that Kroger thing. 178 00:09:40,780 --> 00:09:42,540 It's almost like a, I remember in total recall, 179 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:43,840 they have like the Johnny cab, 180 00:09:44,300 --> 00:09:47,940 like the car almost looked like a Johnny cab without a Johnny in it. 181 00:09:48,860 --> 00:09:51,820 And then, and then finally, I hadn't put up on this one. 182 00:09:51,820 --> 00:09:54,760 I think you just put it in as we were starting here, Richard, 183 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:55,560 but it looks like there's, 184 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:59,300 there's some sort of a container security problem. 185 00:09:59,660 --> 00:10:01,220 What's what's going on over there. 186 00:10:01,620 --> 00:10:02,020 Yeah, 187 00:10:02,020 --> 00:10:04,540 there was a survey done or research done actually. 188 00:10:04,540 --> 00:10:09,580 And it showed that a lot of there's a ton of kind of publicly exposed Kubernetes 189 00:10:09,580 --> 00:10:11,320 container management view wise. 190 00:10:11,540 --> 00:10:14,020 So when you have that sort of default management dashboard, 191 00:10:14,020 --> 00:10:16,580 a lot of people are incorrectly exposing that to the internet. 192 00:10:16,580 --> 00:10:18,760 And depending on if you don't change credentials or not, 193 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,440 you're more or less inviting the world to hack around what might be production 194 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:23,800 could be all sorts of environments. 195 00:10:23,980 --> 00:10:27,280 There was 20 some thousand listed in this exposure. 196 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,720 And just one of those reminders like PKS, 197 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:30,900 if you're a PKS customer, 198 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:32,900 you can't have this happen to you. 199 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:35,060 Like we've probably have locked things down appropriately. 200 00:10:35,300 --> 00:10:37,560 You can't accidentally get into this state, 201 00:10:37,560 --> 00:10:39,960 but just one of those be careful things. 202 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:41,100 If you're running open source, 203 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,220 you're doing things on your own with some other platforms, 204 00:10:43,220 --> 00:10:44,480 you can get in trouble there. 205 00:10:44,500 --> 00:10:46,740 And I added just to kind of freak you out more. 206 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:48,500 There was a secondary story that, 207 00:10:48,580 --> 00:10:48,660 Hey, 208 00:10:48,660 --> 00:10:52,880 a lot of these container images in the Docker hub are being injected with 209 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,940 different malicious code and malware and things like that. 210 00:10:55,940 --> 00:10:57,260 So kind of good luck to you, 211 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,340 building your images and running it in your open source container 212 00:11:00,340 --> 00:11:01,180 orchestrator. 213 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:03,080 Cause it's kind of dangerous out there. 214 00:11:03,300 --> 00:11:05,700 And from my cursory reading of the story, 215 00:11:05,700 --> 00:11:10,300 it looks like it was ultimately this resulted in generating about $90,000 216 00:11:10,300 --> 00:11:11,180 worth of Bitcoin. 217 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,760 So it seems like maybe it's not a lot of work, 218 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:16,460 but man, 219 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:18,800 that's a good old, 220 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:19,120 good old, 221 00:11:19,180 --> 00:11:21,960 good old Bitcoin seems to be working out for everyone. 222 00:11:22,220 --> 00:11:24,760 Now you're helping our SEO by mentioning that in the podcast. 223 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:25,240 So that's good. 224 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:26,200 Well, 225 00:11:26,260 --> 00:11:27,580 welcome to our new audience. 226 00:11:30,140 --> 00:11:30,800 That's right. 227 00:11:31,220 --> 00:11:32,360 I had someone, 228 00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:33,360 I was in, 229 00:11:33,500 --> 00:11:34,500 where was I? 230 00:11:35,580 --> 00:11:36,940 I think it was in, 231 00:11:36,940 --> 00:11:37,840 in Cologne or, 232 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:38,900 or as the Dutch say, 233 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:39,440 coolen, 234 00:11:39,540 --> 00:11:42,100 or as the Germans say something else with the umlaut on it. 235 00:11:42,420 --> 00:11:43,680 And I was, 236 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:44,440 I was saying like, 237 00:11:44,500 --> 00:11:47,180 I was mentioning someone at an insurance company was talking about 238 00:11:47,180 --> 00:11:49,780 blockchain and I had no idea what that would be used for. 239 00:11:49,860 --> 00:11:50,900 And then sure enough, 240 00:11:51,060 --> 00:11:52,140 someone from a, 241 00:11:52,140 --> 00:11:55,600 someone from a big German insurance company came over and explained to me 242 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:57,820 why blockchain would be very valuable in insurance, 243 00:11:57,960 --> 00:11:58,740 which was, 244 00:11:58,980 --> 00:12:00,680 which was kind of fascinating. 245 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:00,960 It, 246 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:02,700 it also exposed the, 247 00:12:02,700 --> 00:12:04,640 you know, 248 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:05,740 often in it, 249 00:12:05,740 --> 00:12:08,740 the words practical and boring are synonyms. 250 00:12:09,740 --> 00:12:10,820 So with that said, 251 00:12:10,940 --> 00:12:14,640 it also explained some of the practical sides of a blockchain, 252 00:12:14,860 --> 00:12:17,700 namely just like verifying that a thing happened, 253 00:12:17,700 --> 00:12:19,540 which as you can imagine in the, 254 00:12:19,540 --> 00:12:21,140 the insurance industry is valuable. 255 00:12:21,140 --> 00:12:22,460 And to bore everyone more, 256 00:12:22,620 --> 00:12:24,300 he told me that in Germany, 257 00:12:24,300 --> 00:12:29,400 there's this interesting regulation with insurance that no matter what channel, 258 00:12:29,580 --> 00:12:32,180 which is to say what method through a person or a website, 259 00:12:32,180 --> 00:12:32,620 or, 260 00:12:32,780 --> 00:12:32,900 you know, 261 00:12:32,900 --> 00:12:36,740 maybe you're at the back of a magazine and you mail in a little postcard that 262 00:12:36,740 --> 00:12:37,260 was in there. 263 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:38,600 You all, 264 00:12:38,740 --> 00:12:43,980 you have to consistently be offered the same terms and a rate for your policy. 265 00:12:44,180 --> 00:12:47,280 I guess you could say their policy procedure is item pot, 266 00:12:47,540 --> 00:12:47,740 right? 267 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:49,620 Like it generates the same thing every time, 268 00:12:49,660 --> 00:12:52,340 which is kind of a fascinating. 269 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:53,360 I, 270 00:12:53,420 --> 00:12:54,920 I asked him why that was, 271 00:12:54,940 --> 00:12:56,140 and it was something about, 272 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:57,180 I don't know. 273 00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:59,540 It didn't really have like a very great answer, 274 00:12:59,540 --> 00:13:03,160 but it sort of made sense from a being nice standpoint. 275 00:13:03,380 --> 00:13:07,020 So speaking of introducing blockchain and insurance, 276 00:13:07,340 --> 00:13:10,180 it's always lots of details like that. 277 00:13:10,260 --> 00:13:11,880 So we have our two guests on, 278 00:13:12,180 --> 00:13:13,300 you're on, 279 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:13,860 or, 280 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:14,260 you know, 281 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:16,000 what we call the app TX team. 282 00:13:16,380 --> 00:13:19,280 And I think I forget if the X is capitalized or not, 283 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:20,520 but why don't, 284 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:25,660 why don't one of you give us a kind of an overview of what you do on the 285 00:13:25,660 --> 00:13:25,880 team? 286 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:27,320 Like what's the purpose of it? 287 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:28,660 How long has it been around? 288 00:13:28,660 --> 00:13:30,660 And just a little synopsis of what it is. 289 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:33,660 I can give you kind of a brief introduction app TX, 290 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:33,880 right? 291 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:35,600 X small D capital. 292 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:38,860 That's the most important thing you need to know. 293 00:13:39,340 --> 00:13:39,780 Well, 294 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:40,640 we can stop now. 295 00:13:40,980 --> 00:13:41,200 Yeah. 296 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:50,500 Our mission really is to help and enable customers migrate workloads and 297 00:13:50,500 --> 00:13:54,420 applications onto Pivotal Cloud Foundry to get the benefits of the 298 00:13:54,420 --> 00:13:54,880 platform, 299 00:13:55,180 --> 00:13:55,420 right? 300 00:13:55,420 --> 00:14:00,840 So Cloud Foundry and Pivotal Cloud Foundry is an opinionated platform that 301 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:02,440 offers multiple level of abstractions. 302 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:08,780 We help customers on that journey to move their applications to the cloud. 303 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:09,940 And what does that mean? 304 00:14:10,020 --> 00:14:11,160 And in concrete terms, 305 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:16,460 we practice our Pivotal techniques of extreme programming, 306 00:14:16,700 --> 00:14:17,500 test driven development, 307 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:18,320 pair programming, 308 00:14:18,980 --> 00:14:19,240 lean, 309 00:14:19,380 --> 00:14:21,540 lean outside in product engineering. 310 00:14:22,540 --> 00:14:29,520 And we migrate and transform applications to Pivotal Cloud Foundry. 311 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:30,780 We deal with all kinds of applications. 312 00:14:30,780 --> 00:14:33,560 So if you consider applications as T-shirts, 313 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:35,120 we start with small, 314 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:35,600 medium, 315 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:36,200 large, 316 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:37,860 and go all the way up to triple XL. 317 00:14:38,380 --> 00:14:38,660 Now, 318 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,760 the techniques kind of vary as you move along the spectrum. 319 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,040 And a lot of it depends on what, 320 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,300 what outcomes you're driving for. 321 00:14:47,620 --> 00:14:49,580 Are you looking for operational benefits? 322 00:14:49,580 --> 00:14:51,560 Are you looking for increased release frequency? 323 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,300 Are you looking to retire technical debt? 324 00:14:55,340 --> 00:14:55,680 It's a, 325 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:56,400 it's a small team. 326 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:57,900 It's a team of about 40, 327 00:14:58,100 --> 00:14:58,360 40, 328 00:14:58,480 --> 00:14:59,460 40 engineers, 329 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:00,080 I would say. 330 00:15:01,140 --> 00:15:03,940 And we work with the customers very, 331 00:15:04,060 --> 00:15:04,620 very closely. 332 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,560 We pair with them and we kind of teach them and give a, 333 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,340 give them our secret sauce so that they can do this at scale, 334 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:14,620 move all their applications to, 335 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:15,760 and get them to cloud native. 336 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:17,840 That's a good description. 337 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:18,840 I think it, 338 00:15:18,900 --> 00:15:20,800 I often see it as kind of like not, 339 00:15:20,860 --> 00:15:24,060 you're not selling that sugar high of just like use technology here, 340 00:15:24,180 --> 00:15:24,940 go try it. 341 00:15:24,940 --> 00:15:27,200 And then you get frustrated and it kind of just sits on the shelf 342 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:27,520 somewhere. 343 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,560 You're actually helping them actually activate the first step, 344 00:15:30,620 --> 00:15:33,740 like actually learn how to do things and then kind of have the skills to 345 00:15:33,740 --> 00:15:34,220 keep doing it. 346 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:37,340 But one thing I see mentioned in kind of your domain, 347 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:38,700 Rohit or Sarah, 348 00:15:38,700 --> 00:15:42,940 if you'd like your take on this is help me tell the difference between some 349 00:15:42,940 --> 00:15:45,520 of the terms you see thrown around sometimes as synonyms. 350 00:15:45,660 --> 00:15:46,640 So like replatforming, 351 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:47,720 modernization, 352 00:15:47,900 --> 00:15:48,520 refactoring, 353 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,600 are those synonyms or those meant to be used to describe different aspects 354 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:53,540 of app transformation? 355 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:54,360 Replatforming. 356 00:15:54,700 --> 00:15:57,880 You can think of it as another term for it that we hear a lot is lift and 357 00:15:57,880 --> 00:15:58,160 shift, 358 00:15:58,280 --> 00:15:58,920 right? 359 00:15:58,940 --> 00:16:02,520 We're taking some legacy application and we're just getting it to run on 360 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:03,100 PCF. 361 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:06,400 And then that's more of, 362 00:16:06,460 --> 00:16:07,300 it's more of a spectrum, 363 00:16:07,500 --> 00:16:07,660 right? 364 00:16:07,740 --> 00:16:11,000 So replatforming can go all the way up to modernization. 365 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:11,780 If you think about a, 366 00:16:11,780 --> 00:16:12,360 you know, 367 00:16:12,420 --> 00:16:16,640 a spectrum with replatforming and modernization modernization in the middle 368 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:16,960 somewhere, 369 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,880 there's this idea of like refactor where we're applying the, 370 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:21,120 you know, 371 00:16:21,180 --> 00:16:22,520 15 cloud native factors. 372 00:16:23,180 --> 00:16:23,580 And, 373 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:24,180 you know, 374 00:16:24,180 --> 00:16:27,160 in order to get the application running in order to successfully complete that 375 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:28,680 refactor or sorry, 376 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:29,340 replatforming, 377 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,040 we're going to have to modernize a little bit, 378 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:32,560 right? 379 00:16:33,140 --> 00:16:33,540 And, 380 00:16:33,580 --> 00:16:34,040 you know, 381 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:35,560 reduce your dependency on the file system, 382 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:35,940 right? 383 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:40,320 All these kinds of things get your app to scale and run in the cloud. 384 00:16:40,620 --> 00:16:44,440 So we're going to move along the spectrum and get some of those 15 factors 385 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:45,360 running, 386 00:16:45,500 --> 00:16:45,820 right? 387 00:16:47,260 --> 00:16:48,960 But on a replatforming engagement, 388 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:53,100 the focus is getting as many applications running on the platform as 389 00:16:53,100 --> 00:16:53,520 possible. 390 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,080 And then we get as far along in that line as we can in the time. 391 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:58,040 Whereas refactor is like, 392 00:16:58,140 --> 00:17:00,240 Hey, 393 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:00,340 we want to go full cloud native, 394 00:17:00,340 --> 00:17:00,340 right? 395 00:17:00,340 --> 00:17:07,060 We want to address this application and basically massage it as though, 396 00:17:07,060 --> 00:17:10,820 massage it until it gets to the point where it looks like we wrote it green, 397 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:11,100 right? 398 00:17:11,180 --> 00:17:11,580 Greenfield. 399 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,400 And we can run on any platform agnostically. 400 00:17:14,900 --> 00:17:18,020 And then at the like far end of that is modernization where you're saying, 401 00:17:18,100 --> 00:17:18,280 okay, 402 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:22,020 now I want to actually choose the best architecture for this application, 403 00:17:22,020 --> 00:17:22,280 right? 404 00:17:22,300 --> 00:17:22,780 And maybe I'm good. 405 00:17:22,900 --> 00:17:24,600 Maybe I'm going to carve off some microservices. 406 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:26,280 Maybe I'm going to put in, 407 00:17:26,300 --> 00:17:27,080 you know, 408 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:27,880 service discovery, 409 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:28,500 right? 410 00:17:28,620 --> 00:17:29,400 That sort of thing. 411 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,200 And architect my system, 412 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:33,060 you know, 413 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:33,520 and, 414 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,520 and get it with some nice test coverage and things like that, 415 00:17:36,540 --> 00:17:39,440 get some confidence around the application. 416 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:40,300 So it's, 417 00:17:40,340 --> 00:17:42,100 it's not a switch, 418 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:42,320 right? 419 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,340 It's not a radio button where you say, 420 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,860 I'm going to refactor or refactor or re-platform or modernize switch those 421 00:17:48,860 --> 00:17:51,400 first to re-platform, 422 00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:51,820 refactor, 423 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:52,420 modernize. 424 00:17:52,740 --> 00:17:54,140 It's a spectrum and you're going to, 425 00:17:54,140 --> 00:17:57,620 you're going to try to hit some goal along the line and you're going to hit 426 00:17:57,620 --> 00:17:58,660 the others kind of along the way. 427 00:17:58,840 --> 00:17:59,000 I see. 428 00:17:59,000 --> 00:17:59,740 That's a good description. 429 00:17:59,740 --> 00:18:04,400 So a lot of it comes down to how much you're really messing with the source system. 430 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:05,600 Whereas obviously re-platform, 431 00:18:05,700 --> 00:18:07,660 you're probably messing with it as little as possible. 432 00:18:08,060 --> 00:18:08,420 Modernization, 433 00:18:08,580 --> 00:18:11,260 it may from the outside almost appear like a new system. 434 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:11,780 Is that fair? 435 00:18:11,980 --> 00:18:12,080 Yeah, 436 00:18:12,100 --> 00:18:12,740 I think that's fair. 437 00:18:12,860 --> 00:18:13,940 So when you're thinking of that though, 438 00:18:13,940 --> 00:18:17,620 I'm assuming that that's not a black and white sort of this app gets this, 439 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:18,340 this app gets that, 440 00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:19,560 because there could be components. 441 00:18:19,740 --> 00:18:20,400 Correct me if I'm wrong, 442 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:20,700 where you say, 443 00:18:20,780 --> 00:18:20,860 look, 444 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,140 we're going to actually modernize this aspect of the app. 445 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:24,060 Maybe it's the front end, 446 00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:25,300 maybe it's a backend component, 447 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:26,000 but Hey, 448 00:18:26,020 --> 00:18:27,320 for this sort of set of things, 449 00:18:27,340 --> 00:18:28,080 maybe the database, 450 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,740 like you mentioned earlier with Mongo or other things, 451 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:31,220 maybe that thing, 452 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,040 we just re-platform and we just run it in Kubernetes before, 453 00:18:34,260 --> 00:18:37,320 before we just ran it on a VM or a bare metal box. 454 00:18:37,340 --> 00:18:39,240 We're just looking for incremental efficiencies. 455 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:39,840 Is that fair? 456 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:41,660 Do you see it sometimes span, 457 00:18:41,660 --> 00:18:42,820 even within an app, 458 00:18:42,860 --> 00:18:44,100 how you behave and how you, 459 00:18:44,140 --> 00:18:44,740 what you do with it? 460 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:45,820 Oh yeah, 461 00:18:45,820 --> 00:18:48,380 that was actually very much to the point of what I was going to say was 462 00:18:48,380 --> 00:18:49,860 there's a factor of size in this, 463 00:18:49,900 --> 00:18:50,080 right? 464 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:50,760 The bigger, 465 00:18:50,860 --> 00:18:53,320 the source application that you're looking at, 466 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:55,960 the more different that journey is going to look, 467 00:18:56,020 --> 00:18:57,200 the smaller the application is. 468 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,180 You're probably going to be fine with just re-platforming, 469 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:00,480 right? 470 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:01,980 Because it's small and self-contained, 471 00:19:01,980 --> 00:19:03,620 but as your application gets bigger, 472 00:19:03,620 --> 00:19:05,660 just to exactly to your point, 473 00:19:05,820 --> 00:19:08,940 you're probably going to start carving some things off and modernizing 474 00:19:08,940 --> 00:19:09,520 little pieces, 475 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:11,040 maybe pulling them out as microservices, 476 00:19:11,180 --> 00:19:12,400 maybe not pulling them out as a microservice, 477 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,260 but isolating them in the code base and getting them well surrounded by 478 00:19:15,260 --> 00:19:17,300 tests so that in the future, 479 00:19:17,380 --> 00:19:17,820 if you need to, 480 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:19,040 you can pull it out as a microservice. 481 00:19:20,340 --> 00:19:20,700 So, 482 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:21,380 so there's a, 483 00:19:21,500 --> 00:19:22,200 I'm sure there's many, 484 00:19:22,380 --> 00:19:27,980 but there's a couple of great talks from SpringOne platform that, 485 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:28,700 that I was watching. 486 00:19:28,700 --> 00:19:29,020 And, 487 00:19:29,020 --> 00:19:32,100 and it kind of goes over how y'all do the practice. 488 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:33,760 And, 489 00:19:33,780 --> 00:19:33,860 and, 490 00:19:33,860 --> 00:19:35,440 and I think, 491 00:19:35,500 --> 00:19:39,600 I think one of them draws on explicitly like a Liberty Mutual case of, 492 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:40,440 of how they're doing things, 493 00:19:40,500 --> 00:19:41,320 speaking of insurance, 494 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:42,500 just coincidentally. 495 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:43,520 And, 496 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:43,520 and, 497 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:43,640 and, 498 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:43,800 and, 499 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,660 and it strikes me that like a lot of, 500 00:19:46,660 --> 00:19:54,560 a lot of going through modernization or application transformation is a very disciplined process. 501 00:19:54,940 --> 00:19:55,340 And, 502 00:19:55,420 --> 00:19:56,520 and how it seems, 503 00:19:56,660 --> 00:20:02,180 the way that y'all go through it is how it differed in the discipline process we're used to, 504 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:06,240 is it tries to do things as quickly as possible or in small loops. 505 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:07,420 I mean, 506 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:07,660 that's, 507 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:09,740 that's my very high level summary of things, 508 00:20:09,740 --> 00:20:10,180 but I think, 509 00:20:10,420 --> 00:20:12,040 I think what would be interesting and maybe, 510 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:13,260 maybe, 511 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:15,680 maybe you can go over this is like, 512 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:16,220 what is, 513 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:18,720 what's like the general process that you go through, 514 00:20:18,780 --> 00:20:18,940 right? 515 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:19,640 So let's say, 516 00:20:19,780 --> 00:20:19,860 and, 517 00:20:19,900 --> 00:20:20,280 and to, 518 00:20:20,380 --> 00:20:21,560 to sort of set that up, 519 00:20:21,580 --> 00:20:22,620 let's say I'm a, 520 00:20:23,060 --> 00:20:24,040 we'll just use insurance. 521 00:20:24,180 --> 00:20:25,200 It's the insurance episode. 522 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:29,020 Let's say I'm an insurance company and I've come to your team. 523 00:20:29,020 --> 00:20:29,420 And, 524 00:20:29,500 --> 00:20:29,960 and I guess, 525 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:31,400 I guess the complaint is usually, 526 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,440 I need to innovate and add new features to my, 527 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,440 my overall claims and policy selling system, 528 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,360 but it always takes like 15 months and that's not cool. 529 00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:43,040 Like I want to be able to do things faster. 530 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:43,700 So then what, 531 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:45,800 what you get everyone in a room, 532 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:49,820 like what generally happens over the course of the next 10 or so weeks? 533 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:50,960 Yeah. 534 00:20:51,020 --> 00:20:51,340 I mean, 535 00:20:51,420 --> 00:20:53,500 so even before the engagement, 536 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:55,320 the 10 week engagement begins, 537 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:55,640 right? 538 00:20:56,040 --> 00:21:00,720 There's some pre-work that you have to do beforehand to kind of understand which 539 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:02,440 application are you looking at? 540 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:09,220 Is it a single huge system of systems monolithic application or is it about four or five smaller 541 00:21:09,220 --> 00:21:13,300 applications that come kind of comprise a suite of portfolio of apps? 542 00:21:13,500 --> 00:21:15,720 So that kind of dictates the, 543 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:16,520 the engagement. 544 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:17,680 Now let's assume for, 545 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,380 for an instance that it's a big application. 546 00:21:20,380 --> 00:21:24,860 It's a really a monolithic application with one plus million lines of code. 547 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:34,060 So most are most of our exercises kind of begin with an OKR session where we drill down into 548 00:21:34,060 --> 00:21:35,060 strategic goals, 549 00:21:35,060 --> 00:21:36,560 objectives and key results. 550 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:40,760 So we try to quantify as much of the work that we want to do. 551 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:45,480 So which is why we believe we start with what are the concrete outcomes do you seek? 552 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:47,440 And what are the key results then? 553 00:21:47,940 --> 00:21:51,640 So that's kind of equate those as the soft practices. 554 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,300 Then in order to even achieve those key results, 555 00:21:54,300 --> 00:21:55,680 like increase business agility, 556 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:56,400 what does, 557 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:57,120 what does that mean? 558 00:21:57,260 --> 00:21:59,840 Does that mean that you want to increase your release frequency? 559 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,180 or if you also sometimes we hear reduced technical debt, 560 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:07,680 what does that mean in concrete terms that we need to reduce the coupling that 561 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:11,680 multiple parts of the system can be updated independently from one another. 562 00:22:11,980 --> 00:22:15,060 So we drive out key quantifiable results. 563 00:22:15,060 --> 00:22:17,300 And then you begin the process of modernizing that, 564 00:22:17,460 --> 00:22:18,240 refactoring that, 565 00:22:18,740 --> 00:22:19,420 rebuilding that, 566 00:22:19,540 --> 00:22:20,540 whatever you want to call it. 567 00:22:20,900 --> 00:22:24,880 And that typically starts with understanding of the domain from our side. 568 00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:27,720 We want to understand the entire application. 569 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,300 We want to understand the data flows within the application, 570 00:22:30,700 --> 00:22:31,380 the commands, 571 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:32,180 all the, 572 00:22:32,260 --> 00:22:34,300 all the constituents of the application that, 573 00:22:34,300 --> 00:22:34,580 that, 574 00:22:34,580 --> 00:22:36,260 that lead to the, 575 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,960 that give us insight into the business logic and the domain of the application. 576 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:41,860 So we have multiple techniques here. 577 00:22:41,940 --> 00:22:44,580 We use primarily in order to understand the domains. 578 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:46,580 We leverage a technique called event storming. 579 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:51,800 Event storming is both a technical and a non-technical process where you get the 580 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:57,060 domain experts and the application and the technical experts and the 581 00:22:57,060 --> 00:22:59,700 domain experts together along with the pivotal team. 582 00:23:00,220 --> 00:23:01,520 And everyone models the, 583 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,640 tells the story of the application in terms of domain events, 584 00:23:04,780 --> 00:23:05,940 commands and aggregates. 585 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:07,000 And those, 586 00:23:07,180 --> 00:23:08,600 once you do event storming, 587 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:09,560 it gives you two things. 588 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:12,360 It identifies the top constraints. 589 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,540 So if you're familiar with the theory of constraints from, 590 00:23:15,540 --> 00:23:15,600 from, 591 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:16,700 from Goldratt, 592 00:23:16,820 --> 00:23:19,520 it kind of gives you the top problem to solve to, 593 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:21,100 to give you the maximum benefit. 594 00:23:21,100 --> 00:23:22,920 So it gives you the top constraints. 595 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,840 And the second is it gives you an understanding of the domains of the 596 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:26,260 application. 597 00:23:26,260 --> 00:23:29,260 So once you understand the domains in the mounted context, 598 00:23:29,260 --> 00:23:34,140 you then begin a second series of exercises to map relationships across the 599 00:23:34,140 --> 00:23:38,960 two and then figure out which services to strangle out first. 600 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,060 And then you use, 601 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,160 after you figure out the, 602 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,940 once you draw the interaction between the domains through a process, 603 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:48,400 we have diagram called Boris. 604 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:53,760 You have now identified the coupling between all the domains and you pick a particular service 605 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:55,040 to decompose and strangle. 606 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,020 And once you do the first one, 607 00:23:57,020 --> 00:23:58,060 then you pick the second one. 608 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:00,480 Now that's one axis of decomposition. 609 00:24:00,780 --> 00:24:05,200 Sometimes it's obvious that you have to separate the UI part of the application from the backend 610 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:06,420 processing of the application. 611 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,240 So sometimes modernization is obvious. 612 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:11,860 A customer already has deep insight into it. 613 00:24:11,980 --> 00:24:12,260 In other, 614 00:24:12,380 --> 00:24:13,360 in other cases, 615 00:24:13,700 --> 00:24:18,540 we kind of help them bring out the pain and the technical challenges and figure out 616 00:24:18,540 --> 00:24:19,240 what are the best, 617 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:21,100 what is the best way to decompose an application. 618 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,680 So that's a spectrum of a huge application and how we kind of, 619 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:26,080 and then in those 10 weeks, 620 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,620 you see a lot of those 15 factor being implemented for the applications. 621 00:24:30,940 --> 00:24:31,120 We have, 622 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,020 we implement CICD pipelines. 623 00:24:33,380 --> 00:24:34,060 So all, 624 00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:38,480 all of that application is done in such a way that those apps are modern and can be updated 625 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:40,020 independently of the larger app. 626 00:24:40,780 --> 00:24:41,180 So, 627 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,080 so to interrupt you and then we'll, 628 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:43,500 so, 629 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,380 so basically we're sort of past event storming and there's a few more steps and you're 630 00:24:47,380 --> 00:24:49,460 making the dragon happy, 631 00:24:49,940 --> 00:24:50,560 which is exciting. 632 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:52,560 But you know, 633 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:53,260 when I was, 634 00:24:53,340 --> 00:24:53,820 when I was, 635 00:24:53,820 --> 00:24:54,280 well, 636 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:54,700 first of all, 637 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,140 where's this concept of event storming come from? 638 00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:57,600 Did, 639 00:24:57,660 --> 00:24:58,340 did, 640 00:24:58,340 --> 00:24:58,560 did, 641 00:24:58,560 --> 00:24:58,780 yeah, 642 00:24:59,020 --> 00:25:00,840 even somewhere else or did y'all make that up? 643 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:01,440 No, 644 00:25:01,500 --> 00:25:02,780 event storming was inspired, 645 00:25:03,100 --> 00:25:09,900 was popularized by this Italian guru called Alberto. 646 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:12,000 I'm going to screw up his last name. 647 00:25:12,120 --> 00:25:13,500 It's Zandolfini. 648 00:25:14,180 --> 00:25:14,580 Perfect. 649 00:25:15,860 --> 00:25:16,420 And, 650 00:25:16,420 --> 00:25:18,380 and he was inspired from game storming. 651 00:25:18,380 --> 00:25:24,120 It's a series of facilitation techniques of group facilitation techniques that is, 652 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,540 that brings out the domains from a domain driven perspective. 653 00:25:28,540 --> 00:25:28,940 It's a, 654 00:25:28,940 --> 00:25:29,040 it's a, 655 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,640 it's kind of a very cool technique to, 656 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,460 to draw out a mental model of the application. 657 00:25:35,620 --> 00:25:37,260 If there are groups of like them, 658 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,720 because for an application that is 2 million lines of code, 659 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,060 no one knows everything. 660 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:42,360 It's kind of, 661 00:25:42,460 --> 00:25:42,960 it's, 662 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:48,600 you have to have everyone who understands all parts of the elephant to show up in the room 663 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:50,480 so that you can draw a picture of the elephant. 664 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:52,260 So that's the, 665 00:25:52,460 --> 00:25:54,280 this technique kind of helps you do that. 666 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:55,140 And yeah. 667 00:25:55,260 --> 00:25:56,220 And you know what, 668 00:25:56,420 --> 00:25:57,060 and maybe, 669 00:25:57,360 --> 00:25:58,260 I don't know, 670 00:25:58,320 --> 00:25:58,920 I want, 671 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,860 I want to run my sort of summary of it and by the two of you and see if this sort of makes sense. 672 00:26:03,900 --> 00:26:05,680 It seems like it's almost, 673 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:06,360 I don't know, 674 00:26:06,380 --> 00:26:07,840 it's kind of akin to a, 675 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,140 a value stream in the following way. 676 00:26:10,220 --> 00:26:16,060 Like you sort of have an existing system that in reality, 677 00:26:16,060 --> 00:26:18,900 no one really knows how it functions completely. 678 00:26:19,100 --> 00:26:21,540 Everyone has like one little particular view of it. 679 00:26:21,660 --> 00:26:24,460 And so instead of having like a descriptive way, 680 00:26:24,580 --> 00:26:25,120 your classic, 681 00:26:25,120 --> 00:26:31,140 like a right click on your application and extract a bunch of UML diagrams or whatever it is people do nowadays, 682 00:26:31,140 --> 00:26:32,860 which sort of describes what, 683 00:26:32,980 --> 00:26:34,240 what the system looks like. 684 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:35,800 I don't know, 685 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:36,420 theoretically, 686 00:26:36,420 --> 00:26:37,980 it's almost like you're, 687 00:26:37,980 --> 00:26:40,680 you're rediscovering the purpose and the reason things are running, 688 00:26:40,780 --> 00:26:41,460 which is to say, 689 00:26:41,580 --> 00:26:44,220 as there's a process going through your system, 690 00:26:44,220 --> 00:26:44,700 like, 691 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:45,600 I don't know, 692 00:26:46,060 --> 00:26:47,360 answering an insurance claim, 693 00:26:47,460 --> 00:26:53,400 what are the significant things that is say events that occur and how do they kind of pass off between each other from, 694 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:54,920 from a business process sense. 695 00:26:55,120 --> 00:26:56,200 And in that way, 696 00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:06,720 it almost seems like it's a good way to do a bit of like architectural archeology where you're trying to find out how things actually operate versus how they should be operating. 697 00:27:07,140 --> 00:27:07,580 And, 698 00:27:07,580 --> 00:27:08,360 you know, 699 00:27:08,420 --> 00:27:11,080 and then by having all those different parties involved in a room, 700 00:27:11,500 --> 00:27:12,440 it seems like, 701 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:13,780 well, 702 00:27:13,980 --> 00:27:14,260 they're, 703 00:27:14,260 --> 00:27:16,280 they're the ones who know they're small little, 704 00:27:16,540 --> 00:27:18,180 they're part of the elephant as it were. 705 00:27:18,380 --> 00:27:18,800 And you get, 706 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:19,320 you get a, 707 00:27:19,380 --> 00:27:20,280 you get a actual, 708 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,700 it's important because you not only get a picture of how you think things operate, 709 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,340 but you get an idea of how they actually operate, 710 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:32,000 which is clearly a lot more valuable than theoretical operation. 711 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:32,380 Yeah. 712 00:27:32,620 --> 00:27:33,140 And I think, 713 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:34,920 Michael, 714 00:27:35,060 --> 00:27:35,220 you're, 715 00:27:35,220 --> 00:27:35,900 you're spot on. 716 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:37,220 Value stream mapping is, 717 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:37,820 is, 718 00:27:38,220 --> 00:27:43,920 I look at it as just another form of event storming to tailor to a specific outcome. 719 00:27:44,120 --> 00:27:44,340 Yeah. 720 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:45,200 That makes sense. 721 00:27:45,500 --> 00:27:45,660 So, 722 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:46,180 so what, 723 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:46,880 like, 724 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:47,320 like have, 725 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:47,620 have, 726 00:27:47,700 --> 00:27:49,020 have either you or Sarah, 727 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:49,320 like, 728 00:27:49,360 --> 00:27:49,580 what are, 729 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:50,940 what are some examples of, 730 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:52,580 of that you might have of like, 731 00:27:53,100 --> 00:27:53,620 I don't know, 732 00:27:53,780 --> 00:27:56,180 fun aha moments in event storming? 733 00:27:56,260 --> 00:27:56,540 Like, 734 00:27:56,620 --> 00:27:56,860 like, 735 00:27:56,860 --> 00:27:59,020 like I imagine it often occurs that someone, 736 00:27:59,820 --> 00:28:00,040 some, 737 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,100 some architects or some other people say, 738 00:28:02,260 --> 00:28:02,400 Oh, 739 00:28:02,740 --> 00:28:02,980 I, 740 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:04,560 I never realized that was happening. 741 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:05,380 Like that's a, 742 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:06,960 that's an important part of the system. 743 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,580 The ones that I have seen are just, 744 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,440 everyone kind of confirms their understanding of where the, 745 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,520 the pain is in the system. 746 00:28:16,300 --> 00:28:16,820 It, 747 00:28:16,860 --> 00:28:18,920 it often leads to the, 748 00:28:19,060 --> 00:28:19,360 the, 749 00:28:19,380 --> 00:28:21,620 the business developers and the technical guys, 750 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,920 them themselves having a better understanding of the system. 751 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,380 So it's kind of like a cathartic experience. 752 00:28:27,380 --> 00:28:29,880 Think of it like counseling almost in some way. 753 00:28:30,620 --> 00:28:33,580 I don't know if I have any aha moments for you. 754 00:28:33,580 --> 00:28:33,900 It's, 755 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:39,780 it's a gradual series of progressive understanding of the app. 756 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:42,200 It's, 757 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:43,520 it's, 758 00:28:43,580 --> 00:28:48,580 it's very effective way of care of transferring knowledge as well. 759 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:49,820 And one of the cool parts, 760 00:28:49,900 --> 00:28:51,780 it's not even just for current state, 761 00:28:51,900 --> 00:28:53,840 even for future state, 762 00:28:53,900 --> 00:28:54,080 right? 763 00:28:54,100 --> 00:28:58,040 Like you are in this system because of various problems that you have had. 764 00:28:58,260 --> 00:28:59,120 We also, 765 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:00,880 in my recent engagement, 766 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:01,600 we did it, 767 00:29:02,060 --> 00:29:05,060 a colleague of mine did it for future state event storming, 768 00:29:05,140 --> 00:29:09,120 where you can then imagine the art of the possible with the newer system. 769 00:29:09,500 --> 00:29:11,920 So event storming is not just for the old existing monolith. 770 00:29:12,060 --> 00:29:14,580 It's also for how will our new system look like? 771 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:15,220 How would the, 772 00:29:15,500 --> 00:29:17,420 what would be the flow of events for the new system? 773 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,840 And that helps you design your APIs and contracts for the new system. 774 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:21,340 That's cool. 775 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:22,340 So one thing I wanted to, 776 00:29:22,900 --> 00:29:23,160 you know, 777 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:24,640 the event storming stuff is pretty cool stuff, 778 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:24,920 but you, 779 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,200 and you touched on this Rohit a little bit and Sarah, 780 00:29:27,260 --> 00:29:29,320 I'm interested in your experience in your, 781 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:30,340 your real four months, 782 00:29:30,380 --> 00:29:35,420 maybe your fake eight months of being on aptX is when you kind of see success 783 00:29:35,420 --> 00:29:37,120 metrics and Rohit called out some of, 784 00:29:37,220 --> 00:29:37,820 some of this. 785 00:29:37,820 --> 00:29:39,040 And I think it's important to call it, 786 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:39,680 this is quick. 787 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:41,040 This is like 10 week projects. 788 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,800 These are not like nine year life transformation. 789 00:29:44,060 --> 00:29:45,280 Everything changes projects. 790 00:29:45,340 --> 00:29:46,000 These are pretty quick. 791 00:29:46,060 --> 00:29:48,920 You see feedback quickly when you've finished your projects. 792 00:29:49,180 --> 00:29:51,800 What are those sorts of things that go back to the customer and say, 793 00:29:51,900 --> 00:29:52,680 Hey, 794 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:53,680 this seemed like it was worth it. 795 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:54,800 Like we check this box. 796 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:55,140 Is it, 797 00:29:55,140 --> 00:29:57,980 is it things that feel like they're sustainable changes? 798 00:29:57,980 --> 00:29:58,220 Like, 799 00:29:58,300 --> 00:29:58,380 Hey, 800 00:29:58,380 --> 00:30:00,000 we've got so many apps on pipelines, 801 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,260 or is it things about just raw number of apps that have been moved in 802 00:30:03,260 --> 00:30:03,660 general? 803 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,060 What sort of things do people define as their success? 804 00:30:06,420 --> 00:30:08,260 So before we go on to that one, 805 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,600 I just want to say one more thing about the event storming, 806 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,340 which is not every project does an event storming, 807 00:30:14,380 --> 00:30:14,560 right? 808 00:30:15,060 --> 00:30:16,580 That's more of a modernization technique. 809 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,880 So if you go in and you know that you're going to need to modernize your 810 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:19,260 system, 811 00:30:19,420 --> 00:30:20,660 we usually do an event storming, 812 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,760 but I've been on primarily replatforming engagements where we haven't 813 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:24,240 done one. 814 00:30:24,780 --> 00:30:29,840 And my experience on replatforming is like that stuff comes out organically. 815 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:31,140 Whereas with event storming, 816 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,080 it kind of comes out upfront with more of an organized method behind the 817 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:35,340 madness. 818 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:40,400 And my experience of app transformation is more like you're riding a tiger 819 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,960 and you're just hanging on because like you said, 820 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:48,300 it's a very short engagement and you don't have a lot of control. 821 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:49,460 You're not in a greenfield environment. 822 00:30:49,580 --> 00:30:52,380 You're in their environment and every environment is different. 823 00:30:52,740 --> 00:30:54,760 So as far as success metrics go, 824 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:55,480 right, 825 00:30:55,580 --> 00:30:55,940 it's, 826 00:30:56,060 --> 00:30:56,780 you know, 827 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:58,880 how far did the tight, 828 00:30:59,000 --> 00:30:59,160 you know, 829 00:30:59,180 --> 00:30:59,460 how much, 830 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,940 how much progress did the tiger and I make at working together? 831 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:03,400 Right. 832 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,260 And are we going in the same direction at the end? 833 00:31:05,260 --> 00:31:07,940 And obviously we want to get to production, 834 00:31:08,100 --> 00:31:08,260 right? 835 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:09,640 Because until apps are in production, 836 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,080 they're not making any money for the customer and they're not seeing the 837 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,220 benefit really of the platform. 838 00:31:14,500 --> 00:31:14,740 Right. 839 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,460 So one of our primary goals is, 840 00:31:17,620 --> 00:31:17,660 Hey, 841 00:31:17,660 --> 00:31:19,800 let's get stuff all the way through into prod. 842 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:20,720 And, 843 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:22,720 and then enablement, 844 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:22,920 right? 845 00:31:22,980 --> 00:31:23,240 Like, 846 00:31:23,500 --> 00:31:24,500 like you said, 847 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:25,420 it's a very short engagement, 848 00:31:25,620 --> 00:31:26,740 four to 10 weeks. 849 00:31:27,100 --> 00:31:28,520 And if you're on a four week engagement, 850 00:31:28,780 --> 00:31:29,840 that's not a lot of time, 851 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:30,000 right? 852 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:30,500 That's a very, 853 00:31:30,580 --> 00:31:31,460 very small amount of time. 854 00:31:31,820 --> 00:31:35,860 And so we need to make sure that in the short amount of time that we have, 855 00:31:36,420 --> 00:31:40,080 we have brought people up to speed enough that they can continue this without us. 856 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:40,680 Right. 857 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:42,760 So we want to have some really, 858 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:43,180 you know, 859 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:44,080 intense conversations. 860 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:45,420 We want to show them, 861 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:46,320 you know, 862 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:46,640 the, 863 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:47,460 the path forward, 864 00:31:47,540 --> 00:31:48,540 the light at the end of the tunnel. 865 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:53,100 And we want to leave them with some tools to get there on their own after we're gone. 866 00:31:53,260 --> 00:31:53,380 Yeah. 867 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:55,500 And to give you some insight into numbers, 868 00:31:55,580 --> 00:31:55,820 Richard, 869 00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:00,460 our average for replatforming is roughly 10 apps in 10 weeks. 870 00:32:00,740 --> 00:32:01,840 And those 10 apps, 871 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,960 think of those 10 apps as like maybe three medium or four medium apps, 872 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,520 three to four large apps and three to four small apps. 873 00:32:10,100 --> 00:32:11,700 We've done vastly more. 874 00:32:12,260 --> 00:32:14,380 And sometimes we do a little bit less, 875 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:15,720 but that gives you an idea. 876 00:32:15,820 --> 00:32:16,760 10 apps in 10 weeks. 877 00:32:16,820 --> 00:32:22,520 That means you're basically doing one app in a week across a team of roughly three pairs 878 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:23,540 or four pairs. 879 00:32:24,500 --> 00:32:25,880 That's how fast it goes. 880 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:34,040 But customers often are amazed at how much gets done in 10 weeks because of the way we work. 881 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,880 We work in a dedicated pair programming fashion. 882 00:32:37,100 --> 00:32:37,700 We work for, 883 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:43,900 we have a very rigorous style of work and we do take breaks. 884 00:32:44,100 --> 00:32:48,980 But when you work in this kind of setting where you are enabling the other partner 885 00:32:48,980 --> 00:32:51,740 and you have dedicated time, 886 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:53,540 a lot can get done. 887 00:32:54,460 --> 00:32:54,820 Yeah, 888 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:55,380 it seems like, 889 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:57,580 and then one of those things that you touch on there, 890 00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:58,800 it seems like at that pace, 891 00:32:59,140 --> 00:33:01,020 settling for just a pure, 892 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:01,460 you know, 893 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,740 let's just containerize our apps and call that success and move on. 894 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:06,520 It seems like you can do better than that. 895 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,240 And I think that's what we're trying to sell here, 896 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:08,640 I think, 897 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,960 which is like that alone may not give you the benefits you're looking for. 898 00:33:12,020 --> 00:33:15,420 It might make sense to have some of these apps that go much further than that. 899 00:33:15,460 --> 00:33:15,960 Is that fair? 900 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:24,180 It seems like that lift and shift is sometimes incremental benefit versus if I'm looking for actual benefits and availability or scale or what have you, 901 00:33:24,540 --> 00:33:27,160 that does have me move a little further down that spectrum. 902 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:27,580 Is that, 903 00:33:27,620 --> 00:33:30,820 is that how you categorize kind of positioning that to people? 904 00:33:33,620 --> 00:33:34,060 Yeah. 905 00:33:34,180 --> 00:33:34,460 I mean, 906 00:33:34,540 --> 00:33:35,280 so when, 907 00:33:35,500 --> 00:33:37,460 even when we say replatforming, 908 00:33:37,700 --> 00:33:38,360 like Sarah said, 909 00:33:38,420 --> 00:33:39,060 it's a spectrum. 910 00:33:39,620 --> 00:33:42,860 Oftentimes it lands somewhere in the middle where we have, 911 00:33:43,180 --> 00:33:44,920 where we have externalized the configuration. 912 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,660 We have stored the secrets in a vault. 913 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:49,000 We do, 914 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:49,740 I mean, 915 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:50,740 I to be to, 916 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:51,880 I mean, 917 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:52,080 we, 918 00:33:52,220 --> 00:33:56,100 we do a lot of just taking applications and moving them to, 919 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:57,260 to cloud native. 920 00:33:57,260 --> 00:34:00,860 We do less of a pure lift and shift model. 921 00:34:01,740 --> 00:34:02,180 We, 922 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,480 we prioritize how much changes we need to make based on, 923 00:34:05,700 --> 00:34:07,380 on what the customer wants as well. 924 00:34:07,460 --> 00:34:09,340 But we innovated in, 925 00:34:09,580 --> 00:34:12,500 we most of the times land on the right side of the, 926 00:34:12,500 --> 00:34:13,440 of, 927 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:15,480 of the modernization zone. 928 00:34:18,340 --> 00:34:18,780 Sarah, 929 00:34:18,820 --> 00:34:19,440 what do you think? 930 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:19,700 How, 931 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:20,260 when, 932 00:34:20,340 --> 00:34:21,780 when we re-platform applications, 933 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,840 where do we end up landing them for the most part? 934 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,380 I think it's very different based on the application. 935 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:32,060 And that's a hard question, 936 00:34:32,140 --> 00:34:32,280 right? 937 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:33,480 Because the, 938 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:35,880 the goals of each client are different. 939 00:34:35,980 --> 00:34:38,500 The goals of each application are different. 940 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:39,720 And, 941 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:41,340 you know, 942 00:34:41,380 --> 00:34:45,640 I think it's important that we don't always hit every goal, 943 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:47,620 but we do show the path forward, 944 00:34:47,700 --> 00:34:47,820 right? 945 00:34:47,860 --> 00:34:48,080 We, 946 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,340 we leave with the knowledge of how to get to the next step and maybe what 947 00:34:51,340 --> 00:34:52,360 those next steps are. 948 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:53,240 Not maybe, 949 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:54,560 definitely what those next steps are. 950 00:34:55,020 --> 00:34:55,420 So, 951 00:34:55,740 --> 00:34:56,180 you know, 952 00:34:56,220 --> 00:34:56,360 we, 953 00:34:56,440 --> 00:35:00,120 we want to get it when we have this suite of small applications, 954 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:01,380 we want to get one application, 955 00:35:01,380 --> 00:35:02,420 you know, 956 00:35:02,420 --> 00:35:03,540 all the way through the system. 957 00:35:04,180 --> 00:35:04,540 Right. 958 00:35:04,580 --> 00:35:05,620 But then every other one, 959 00:35:05,700 --> 00:35:09,960 we get to some point where it can run on PCF. 960 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:10,200 Right. 961 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,200 But it's not necessarily done, 962 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:12,560 done. 963 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:13,640 And, 964 00:35:13,700 --> 00:35:14,160 and, 965 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:15,600 and instead we leave this map, 966 00:35:15,660 --> 00:35:16,040 like we said, 967 00:35:16,100 --> 00:35:16,240 Hey, 968 00:35:16,260 --> 00:35:16,540 we've, 969 00:35:16,580 --> 00:35:19,620 we've shown you the way with this one and you have the tools, 970 00:35:19,660 --> 00:35:19,760 right? 971 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,340 You have the knowledge of what we did together on the one that 972 00:35:22,340 --> 00:35:23,220 punched all the way through. 973 00:35:23,740 --> 00:35:26,060 And here's the roadmap for the others. 974 00:35:27,720 --> 00:35:28,120 So, 975 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:29,440 so speaking of next steps, 976 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:30,880 I interrupted the, 977 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,520 the overview that we were going through of what the process is. 978 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:33,840 And I think, 979 00:35:33,900 --> 00:35:37,480 I think we left off like maybe after event storming. 980 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:38,180 And if not, 981 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:39,540 I forgotten what we did. 982 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:40,840 So maybe we can go to that part, 983 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,420 but do you want to keep summarizing what the overall the, 984 00:35:44,420 --> 00:35:46,360 the dragon happy process looks like Rohit? 985 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:47,040 Yeah. 986 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,460 So the event storming may or may not happen, 987 00:35:50,620 --> 00:35:50,780 right? 988 00:35:50,820 --> 00:35:52,780 It does not happen for all applications. 989 00:35:52,780 --> 00:35:55,400 It happens for these huge system of systems, 990 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:57,840 monolithic applications for the small, 991 00:35:57,980 --> 00:35:58,300 medium, 992 00:35:58,700 --> 00:35:59,800 large applications. 993 00:36:00,740 --> 00:36:01,740 We have, 994 00:36:02,020 --> 00:36:08,240 we have a couple of processes in our tool belt called snap and, 995 00:36:08,240 --> 00:36:10,560 and another set of automated tools where, 996 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,900 so snap stands for in a snap, 997 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:14,400 not analysis paralysis. 998 00:36:14,980 --> 00:36:18,900 So we have this process where within like roughly 15 minutes to 20 minutes 999 00:36:18,900 --> 00:36:19,860 or half an hour, 1000 00:36:19,860 --> 00:36:20,400 we get, 1001 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:25,560 we get an understanding of how much effort it will take to re-platform the 1002 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:26,060 application. 1003 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:30,960 And then we also have some tools that we can run in an automated fashion. 1004 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:35,280 We combine that expert insight from snap into automated tools and basically 1005 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:37,820 generate a t-shirt size score for the application. 1006 00:36:38,060 --> 00:36:38,960 So the applications, 1007 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:39,560 like I said, 1008 00:36:39,620 --> 00:36:41,400 would fall into small to medium, 1009 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:42,120 extra large. 1010 00:36:42,260 --> 00:36:43,940 And then for the huge apps, 1011 00:36:44,620 --> 00:36:45,240 they are, 1012 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,440 I categorize them as double XL and triple XL. 1013 00:36:47,620 --> 00:36:47,800 So, 1014 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:48,240 okay, 1015 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:49,240 you've gone through snap, 1016 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:50,340 you've gone through PCAT. 1017 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:54,100 you have an understanding of the modification points of that application. 1018 00:36:54,100 --> 00:36:58,820 We create a backlog and all that typically happens either in the pre-work or it 1019 00:36:58,820 --> 00:37:00,680 happens in the first couple of days of the engagement. 1020 00:37:01,020 --> 00:37:04,500 We want to start writing code as soon as possible to start the learning. 1021 00:37:04,940 --> 00:37:05,940 So the process, 1022 00:37:06,240 --> 00:37:10,800 the actual engagement begins with an inception where we drive out the objectives 1023 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:11,700 and key results. 1024 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:12,460 We, 1025 00:37:12,700 --> 00:37:15,100 we review the results of the snap analysis. 1026 00:37:15,100 --> 00:37:21,160 We create a backlog of all the stories for and tag them for each application. 1027 00:37:21,340 --> 00:37:27,120 We also tag the backlog of user stories and associate them with specific key 1028 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,400 results so that at the end of the engagement, 1029 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:33,020 we can track exactly how much of those key results we have completed. 1030 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:37,760 And then essentially we start with stream in a replatforming engagement. 1031 00:37:37,980 --> 00:37:40,380 You typically start off with three or four apps, 1032 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:41,940 depending on how many pairs you have. 1033 00:37:41,940 --> 00:37:45,260 Each pair tackles an application and starts making changes to it. 1034 00:37:45,620 --> 00:37:48,960 And then you begin the series of changes for replatforming. 1035 00:37:49,340 --> 00:37:51,740 And so typically that begins with, 1036 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:52,260 if you, 1037 00:37:52,460 --> 00:37:53,740 if there is an app and you, 1038 00:37:53,860 --> 00:37:55,760 you inject spring boot into the app, 1039 00:37:55,900 --> 00:37:57,760 you look at some of the dependencies, 1040 00:37:57,960 --> 00:37:59,540 you remove the JNDI dependencies, 1041 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,800 you go through the process of what I call as bootification. 1042 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:10,380 Take the app to make changes to the app so that it becomes cloud native and cloud, 1043 00:38:10,580 --> 00:38:11,380 almost in some sense, 1044 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:12,340 cloud agnostic. 1045 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,660 And then typically like, 1046 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:18,980 like I mentioned the 10 apps in 10 weeks, 1047 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:20,880 usually our run rate is it, 1048 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:24,380 you take a pair takes probably a week to move an app, 1049 00:38:24,740 --> 00:38:25,560 sometimes more, 1050 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:26,220 sometimes less. 1051 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,260 And we see that the velocity typically increases towards the end. 1052 00:38:29,260 --> 00:38:30,220 And towards the end, 1053 00:38:30,300 --> 00:38:31,200 we also put more focus. 1054 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,260 We also may do a value stream, 1055 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:35,320 a path to production, 1056 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:37,060 because in some cases, 1057 00:38:37,060 --> 00:38:38,820 it's really important to get the apps to production. 1058 00:38:39,020 --> 00:38:41,260 So we figure out how to automate CI, 1059 00:38:41,340 --> 00:38:44,060 CD and to bust any of those blockers there. 1060 00:38:44,340 --> 00:38:47,940 So we also put a particular focus on getting the apps through the pipeline, 1061 00:38:48,020 --> 00:38:49,900 all the way through the environments to production. 1062 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:51,720 So those are the things that we, 1063 00:38:52,020 --> 00:38:53,800 that kind of happened during an engagement. 1064 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:55,760 We have mid engagement reviews, 1065 00:38:56,100 --> 00:38:57,780 end of engagement every week. 1066 00:38:57,900 --> 00:38:59,060 There is a retrospective. 1067 00:38:59,460 --> 00:39:01,120 There are iteration planning meetings. 1068 00:39:01,240 --> 00:39:01,780 There are demos. 1069 00:39:02,340 --> 00:39:09,260 We closely align with the product owners from the customer side and make sure that they accept our stories. 1070 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,000 It's a very close collaboration till the very end. 1071 00:39:12,460 --> 00:39:14,400 And because we have been pair programming throughout, 1072 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:16,420 there is no knowledge transfer at the end. 1073 00:39:16,500 --> 00:39:17,700 All the developers are enabled. 1074 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:18,680 And after that, 1075 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:19,860 they can sell, 1076 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,900 divide and spawn other teams at the customer side. 1077 00:39:22,940 --> 00:39:23,800 And that's how it scales. 1078 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:24,640 Yeah. 1079 00:39:24,700 --> 00:39:25,340 There's a, 1080 00:39:25,460 --> 00:39:25,620 you know, 1081 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:25,960 as, 1082 00:39:26,100 --> 00:39:31,040 as to the point of a lot of it being sort of a process oriented and all of that. 1083 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,460 It's interesting that a lot of the technical aspects you know, 1084 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:43,320 actual coding and architectural stuff that I think people often struggle with when they're dealing with legacy sort of happens at the end of the process. 1085 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:44,100 And there's a, 1086 00:39:44,180 --> 00:39:48,120 there's a good little vignette of that from another rookie at Liberty where he, 1087 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:48,920 where he talks about, 1088 00:39:49,020 --> 00:39:51,820 I think a three stage MVP that they go through to, 1089 00:39:51,820 --> 00:39:52,940 to break up a, 1090 00:39:52,980 --> 00:39:54,720 an ear into smaller services. 1091 00:39:54,720 --> 00:39:56,820 And then also to like remove database dependencies. 1092 00:39:56,820 --> 00:39:57,580 And it's, 1093 00:39:57,620 --> 00:40:01,680 it's a nice overview of the technical part of how you kind of systematically do what, 1094 00:40:01,720 --> 00:40:03,600 people often feel is impossible, 1095 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:05,120 which is to take, 1096 00:40:05,340 --> 00:40:05,740 I guess, 1097 00:40:05,780 --> 00:40:08,280 like a classic three tier application and, 1098 00:40:08,340 --> 00:40:10,380 and break it up into microservices. 1099 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:11,360 So the, 1100 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:12,320 the, 1101 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:12,660 the, 1102 00:40:12,720 --> 00:40:13,540 you know, 1103 00:40:13,540 --> 00:40:14,960 sort of after that process, 1104 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:15,820 I'm curious to hear, 1105 00:40:15,900 --> 00:40:16,080 I mean, 1106 00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:16,220 as, 1107 00:40:16,300 --> 00:40:17,520 as you keep bringing up Sarah, 1108 00:40:17,980 --> 00:40:20,020 that I, 1109 00:40:20,020 --> 00:40:21,680 and I think this is not unique, 1110 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:22,260 but well, 1111 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:24,440 I'll say it's unique for marketing purposes, 1112 00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,540 but it's one of the hallmarks of a lot of pivotal stuff is like, 1113 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:28,640 the hope is that like, 1114 00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:31,700 you can figure out how to do this in the future after we've helped you do it. 1115 00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:36,160 And I wonder like what advice y'all give as far as like, 1116 00:40:36,620 --> 00:40:41,760 here's like the hygiene you should be maintaining so that you don't have to hire us again to fix your, 1117 00:40:41,820 --> 00:40:43,380 your sort of legacy problems. 1118 00:40:43,380 --> 00:40:51,400 Like certainly there's some sort of habits that people fell into that caused them to have something they didn't want or problems in the first place. 1119 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:52,000 And kind of like, 1120 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:52,640 what are the, 1121 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:59,620 what are the pieces of advice you give them and sort of practices that they should start following on going to not fall into this, 1122 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:01,080 this situation again? 1123 00:41:01,220 --> 00:41:01,460 Well, 1124 00:41:01,540 --> 00:41:03,320 the first one is pairing, 1125 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:03,720 right? 1126 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:05,540 And that's not practical in every organization, 1127 00:41:05,540 --> 00:41:07,620 but we like to encourage it where possible. 1128 00:41:08,900 --> 00:41:09,820 Because if you're pairing, 1129 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:11,340 you've got continuous code review, 1130 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:11,580 right? 1131 00:41:11,580 --> 00:41:12,420 You've got two problems, 1132 00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:14,560 two brains solving the same problem over time, 1133 00:41:14,620 --> 00:41:15,260 you go faster. 1134 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:16,320 And, 1135 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:16,780 you know, 1136 00:41:16,780 --> 00:41:21,920 a lot of people are reluctant to pair at first and they're not really sold on the benefits, 1137 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:23,600 but once they've done it with us for a while, 1138 00:41:23,620 --> 00:41:24,220 they kind of see, 1139 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:24,540 oh yeah, 1140 00:41:24,620 --> 00:41:25,520 I see what you're saying, 1141 00:41:25,580 --> 00:41:25,800 right? 1142 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:26,460 About these benefits. 1143 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,460 So that's, 1144 00:41:29,460 --> 00:41:29,940 that's one of, 1145 00:41:30,020 --> 00:41:30,180 you know, 1146 00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:31,100 the hygiene things. 1147 00:41:31,260 --> 00:41:33,760 If you've got two people looking at code at any given time, 1148 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:34,580 you know, 1149 00:41:34,620 --> 00:41:35,320 right there in the moment, 1150 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:36,260 solving the same problem, 1151 00:41:36,260 --> 00:41:42,240 you're more likely to create a good solution or to highlight the problems and then go have a conversation with your pair or with, 1152 00:41:42,460 --> 00:41:42,560 sorry, 1153 00:41:42,620 --> 00:41:43,220 with another pair. 1154 00:41:43,900 --> 00:41:45,240 So pairing also, 1155 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:45,760 you know, 1156 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:46,180 testing, 1157 00:41:46,380 --> 00:41:46,620 right? 1158 00:41:47,220 --> 00:41:48,300 We get into, 1159 00:41:48,620 --> 00:41:49,460 you know, 1160 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:50,720 a lot of these systems and we see, 1161 00:41:50,900 --> 00:41:50,960 oh, 1162 00:41:50,980 --> 00:41:54,640 we've got some cucumber tests or we've got a Q18 that does manual testing. 1163 00:41:55,140 --> 00:41:56,580 And our unit tests are, 1164 00:41:56,580 --> 00:41:57,440 you know, 1165 00:41:57,520 --> 00:41:57,780 like, 1166 00:41:57,840 --> 00:41:58,180 I don't know, 1167 00:41:58,200 --> 00:41:58,440 we have, 1168 00:41:58,520 --> 00:41:59,620 we have 200 tests for, 1169 00:41:59,700 --> 00:42:00,080 you know, 1170 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,140 1 million line software system. 1171 00:42:03,460 --> 00:42:04,160 And it's like, 1172 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:04,720 oh, 1173 00:42:04,780 --> 00:42:05,300 that's, 1174 00:42:05,380 --> 00:42:06,320 that's great. 1175 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:07,020 You know? 1176 00:42:08,180 --> 00:42:09,120 And if we can, 1177 00:42:09,180 --> 00:42:11,180 if we can instill the values of TDD, 1178 00:42:11,460 --> 00:42:11,660 right? 1179 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:12,060 And, 1180 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:13,660 and show you the benefits of that. 1181 00:42:14,300 --> 00:42:16,780 And that's a commitment that you're willing to make long term. 1182 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:17,540 You know, 1183 00:42:17,540 --> 00:42:17,860 that's, 1184 00:42:17,900 --> 00:42:19,020 that's another one of those hygiene things. 1185 00:42:19,020 --> 00:42:20,900 Like it's not easy to do TDD. 1186 00:42:21,180 --> 00:42:26,260 It takes an actual mental shift and kind of a responsibility to yourself and your pair and your code. 1187 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:28,280 But it's another, 1188 00:42:28,420 --> 00:42:29,940 one of those things that pays off long term. 1189 00:42:30,100 --> 00:42:30,780 The thing is, 1190 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:31,920 Michael, 1191 00:42:32,180 --> 00:42:32,380 the, 1192 00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:34,260 sometimes you, 1193 00:42:34,500 --> 00:42:36,180 the 10 weeks is not enough. 1194 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:37,540 You do have to, 1195 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:44,720 like we also work with partners to create that long term journey for that application or suite of applications. 1196 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:47,860 So oftentimes after app transformation is done, 1197 00:42:48,240 --> 00:42:50,500 we work with pivotal labs to, 1198 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:52,800 to carry the long tail of the project through. 1199 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:54,860 And then we work with customer partners as well. 1200 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:56,400 So it's not just, 1201 00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:57,300 we come in for 10 weeks, 1202 00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:57,700 we are gone. 1203 00:42:57,960 --> 00:42:58,180 We, 1204 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:00,280 we sometimes can do multiple engagements. 1205 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:09,660 We like to work with labs and then with the customer preferred partners to kind of get them all the way through the journey to where they need to be. 1206 00:43:09,660 --> 00:43:11,200 There was another hygiene thing, 1207 00:43:11,340 --> 00:43:16,720 which is we maintain a cookbook and we build a cookbook while they were there as we were pairing on these problems. 1208 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:17,760 And, 1209 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:18,220 you know, 1210 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:24,000 part of what we're trying to do with app transformation and what the clients are trying to do with app transformation is move a lot of applications, 1211 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:24,540 right? 1212 00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:25,600 It's not just this one. 1213 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:26,520 It's, 1214 00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:26,620 hey, 1215 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:31,920 I want to identify patterns using this one as an example to make me successful in other projects, 1216 00:43:31,980 --> 00:43:32,100 right? 1217 00:43:32,100 --> 00:43:33,000 With other applications. 1218 00:43:33,700 --> 00:43:35,560 So we, 1219 00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:37,340 as we go along and we identify, 1220 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:37,720 hey, 1221 00:43:37,780 --> 00:43:41,000 this thing was difficult or this is a pattern that we have in other applications, 1222 00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:42,480 we write it down, 1223 00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:43,700 create a cookbook, 1224 00:43:43,700 --> 00:43:46,720 and then that cookbook can get shared out with the organization, 1225 00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:47,460 right? 1226 00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:52,040 And teaching people to kind of have that discipline, 1227 00:43:52,500 --> 00:43:52,720 right? 1228 00:43:52,720 --> 00:43:57,120 Once you've identified a problem that you think other applications are going to have, 1229 00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:57,780 writing it down, 1230 00:43:57,860 --> 00:43:58,520 recording it, 1231 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:00,820 that goes a long way, 1232 00:44:00,860 --> 00:44:01,120 I think, 1233 00:44:01,220 --> 00:44:03,420 towards being successful in the future. 1234 00:44:04,140 --> 00:44:04,420 Yeah, 1235 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:05,740 I was going to ask you a cookbook question. 1236 00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:07,840 So you somehow teed that right up. 1237 00:44:08,180 --> 00:44:09,220 So I was going to, 1238 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:10,020 because specifically, 1239 00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:10,560 you know, 1240 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:11,900 there can be this mindset of like, 1241 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:12,100 look, 1242 00:44:12,140 --> 00:44:13,200 we bought this certain tech. 1243 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:13,840 It's really cool. 1244 00:44:13,900 --> 00:44:14,000 Hey, 1245 00:44:14,020 --> 00:44:15,200 we're just using public cloud. 1246 00:44:15,340 --> 00:44:16,280 We took some training. 1247 00:44:16,420 --> 00:44:17,200 We bought the books. 1248 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:18,120 We're going. 1249 00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:21,180 And that obviously sometimes works for some orgs, 1250 00:44:21,180 --> 00:44:22,520 but does seem like legitimately, 1251 00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:23,140 seriously, 1252 00:44:23,140 --> 00:44:25,560 that when customers are doing app TX with us, 1253 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:25,740 that, 1254 00:44:25,740 --> 00:44:30,020 that leads to an evolutionary or maybe even a revolutionary shift in their approach. 1255 00:44:30,020 --> 00:44:33,680 If they learn the things you just talked about around hygiene and pairing and testing, 1256 00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:36,860 but then they also learn how to keep doing it, 1257 00:44:36,860 --> 00:44:37,240 right? 1258 00:44:37,240 --> 00:44:38,460 Not just while we're there that, 1259 00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:38,720 yes, 1260 00:44:38,720 --> 00:44:39,760 we partner and we pair, 1261 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:40,380 and that's awesome, 1262 00:44:40,380 --> 00:44:42,240 but we don't have to be there for life. 1263 00:44:42,240 --> 00:44:44,080 If we may come back and help and tune up, 1264 00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:46,540 but it seems like you're actually teaching a healthy lifestyle, 1265 00:44:46,540 --> 00:44:47,240 if you will, 1266 00:44:47,660 --> 00:44:52,160 and then leaving behind all the things you need to keep going versus making them codependent on us. 1267 00:44:52,220 --> 00:44:52,520 Is that a, 1268 00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:53,480 is that a fair characterization? 1269 00:44:54,740 --> 00:44:56,060 I think that is very fair. 1270 00:44:56,180 --> 00:44:57,020 And that's something that I, 1271 00:44:57,100 --> 00:45:00,380 I actively strive to do with every pair that I have is teach them like, 1272 00:45:00,980 --> 00:45:01,080 Hey, 1273 00:45:01,100 --> 00:45:01,420 let's, 1274 00:45:01,580 --> 00:45:02,380 let's ask questions, 1275 00:45:02,380 --> 00:45:02,560 right? 1276 00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:03,520 It's okay not to know. 1277 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:03,820 That's, 1278 00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:05,400 that's a really hard thing for people, 1279 00:45:05,540 --> 00:45:10,880 especially the more senior they are to kind of do sometimes, 1280 00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:11,100 you know, 1281 00:45:11,100 --> 00:45:14,340 there's this pressure that we have to know everything and we can't show weakness. 1282 00:45:14,340 --> 00:45:14,620 Right. 1283 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,940 And so we're going to go off into a hole and research something and then come back with a 1284 00:45:17,940 --> 00:45:20,480 solution instead of just, 1285 00:45:20,740 --> 00:45:21,000 you know, 1286 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:22,040 kind of being more upfront and saying, 1287 00:45:22,100 --> 00:45:22,260 gosh, 1288 00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:22,780 I don't know. 1289 00:45:24,660 --> 00:45:27,440 And I guess I should say not just senior people. 1290 00:45:27,540 --> 00:45:27,680 It's, 1291 00:45:27,700 --> 00:45:28,280 it's everybody. 1292 00:45:30,260 --> 00:45:31,940 I see that with a lot of junior people too, 1293 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:32,080 right? 1294 00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:32,480 That was a, 1295 00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:33,960 that was a bad characterization on my part. 1296 00:45:34,020 --> 00:45:34,480 Sorry about that. 1297 00:45:34,980 --> 00:45:36,380 But yeah, 1298 00:45:36,380 --> 00:45:36,940 teaching people, 1299 00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:37,400 like you said, 1300 00:45:37,420 --> 00:45:40,380 to kind of have a healthy mindset and just, 1301 00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:43,320 being transparent and being empowered to say, 1302 00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:43,600 Hey, 1303 00:45:43,660 --> 00:45:44,020 this is, 1304 00:45:44,500 --> 00:45:44,780 you know, 1305 00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:45,940 anybody can raise their hand and say, 1306 00:45:45,980 --> 00:45:46,080 Hey, 1307 00:45:46,100 --> 00:45:46,420 this is, 1308 00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:49,080 this is something that's missing from what we've done so far. 1309 00:45:49,180 --> 00:45:49,540 Or, 1310 00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:51,240 you know, 1311 00:45:51,240 --> 00:45:52,480 I think this is a better solution, 1312 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:52,780 right? 1313 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:53,980 Or I'm worried about this or, 1314 00:45:54,300 --> 00:45:54,400 you know, 1315 00:45:54,460 --> 00:45:54,720 whatever, 1316 00:45:54,900 --> 00:45:56,060 bringing up those questions, 1317 00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:57,680 not knowing, 1318 00:45:57,780 --> 00:46:02,840 being able to explore and you just being a little bit more transparent with, 1319 00:46:03,100 --> 00:46:03,400 you know, 1320 00:46:03,420 --> 00:46:05,600 yourself and your team is, 1321 00:46:05,740 --> 00:46:06,280 goes a long way. 1322 00:46:06,340 --> 00:46:06,440 I mean, 1323 00:46:06,460 --> 00:46:06,720 that's, 1324 00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,540 that's sort of wishy-washy and not technical, 1325 00:46:09,780 --> 00:46:10,460 but, 1326 00:46:10,540 --> 00:46:11,720 it's, 1327 00:46:11,720 --> 00:46:12,280 it's a huge, 1328 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:13,220 it makes a huge difference, 1329 00:46:13,260 --> 00:46:13,380 right? 1330 00:46:13,380 --> 00:46:14,940 If everybody's driven by fear, 1331 00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:16,920 fear of losing their job, 1332 00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,260 fear of not making their date, 1333 00:46:19,460 --> 00:46:19,740 whatever, 1334 00:46:20,260 --> 00:46:23,420 your team is not going to be very effective. 1335 00:46:24,100 --> 00:46:24,500 Right. 1336 00:46:25,140 --> 00:46:25,540 Yeah. 1337 00:46:25,540 --> 00:46:26,260 But at the same time, 1338 00:46:26,260 --> 00:46:28,900 I think what I hear from you and Rohit throughout this talk is that, 1339 00:46:29,020 --> 00:46:29,120 again, 1340 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:31,480 this is still a very personalized approach. 1341 00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:32,400 You don't come in, 1342 00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,740 drop down a 400 pound cookbook on someone's desk and go, 1343 00:46:35,820 --> 00:46:36,460 go at it. 1344 00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:37,320 Like ride the tiger. 1345 00:46:37,420 --> 00:46:37,880 Here we go. 1346 00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:39,280 I think from the sounds of it, 1347 00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:44,920 you're describing something that from the start is still very tailored to that company's sort of personnel, 1348 00:46:45,260 --> 00:46:46,280 their tech problems, 1349 00:46:46,340 --> 00:46:46,860 their challenges. 1350 00:46:46,860 --> 00:46:48,900 And then what you do leave behind is, 1351 00:46:48,900 --> 00:46:51,460 is the sort of recipes you've worked on together, 1352 00:46:51,460 --> 00:46:51,740 right? 1353 00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:53,900 not just a generic collection of things that, 1354 00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:55,120 that they may or may not use. 1355 00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:56,360 Yeah, 1356 00:46:56,420 --> 00:46:56,840 exactly. 1357 00:46:57,100 --> 00:46:58,100 And that's where having, 1358 00:46:58,340 --> 00:46:58,500 you know, 1359 00:46:58,500 --> 00:46:59,060 for us, 1360 00:46:59,140 --> 00:46:59,480 we, 1361 00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:04,900 we maybe bring the process and the experience of the technical replatforming and all that to the pair. 1362 00:47:05,060 --> 00:47:07,440 But what they bring is knowledge of their system, 1363 00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:07,680 right? 1364 00:47:07,720 --> 00:47:08,720 Knowledge of their applications, 1365 00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:09,800 knowledge of their company, 1366 00:47:10,380 --> 00:47:12,220 knowledge of other applications in the company. 1367 00:47:12,540 --> 00:47:13,120 And so, 1368 00:47:13,460 --> 00:47:13,760 you know, 1369 00:47:13,940 --> 00:47:14,180 our, 1370 00:47:14,260 --> 00:47:16,440 our pairs are usually the people that are like, 1371 00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:16,620 hey, 1372 00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:17,680 this is a good recipe, 1373 00:47:18,260 --> 00:47:18,540 right? 1374 00:47:18,580 --> 00:47:19,400 Like we've got, 1375 00:47:19,500 --> 00:47:21,980 we've got 50 applications that use the same patterns. 1376 00:47:22,100 --> 00:47:22,200 Like, 1377 00:47:22,240 --> 00:47:22,320 well, 1378 00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:22,500 great, 1379 00:47:22,540 --> 00:47:23,840 let's write a recipe about it, 1380 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:24,460 right? 1381 00:47:24,580 --> 00:47:26,400 And something that we think might be a good recipe, 1382 00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:26,780 they're like, 1383 00:47:26,860 --> 00:47:27,080 yeah, 1384 00:47:27,100 --> 00:47:27,520 this is, 1385 00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:27,860 you know, 1386 00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:28,540 I don't think so, 1387 00:47:28,700 --> 00:47:28,880 right? 1388 00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:29,820 This is just, 1389 00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:30,680 we just did this, 1390 00:47:30,740 --> 00:47:31,520 this one time. 1391 00:47:32,260 --> 00:47:33,460 So it really is a, 1392 00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:35,400 an intense collaboration and, 1393 00:47:35,580 --> 00:47:41,040 and the cookbook that comes out of it is designed to be useful to that organization, 1394 00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:41,640 right? 1395 00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:42,940 And their suite of applications. 1396 00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:43,340 Yeah. 1397 00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:47,080 And this is a second order derivative effect to the cookbook, 1398 00:47:47,420 --> 00:47:48,760 the CICD pipelines. 1399 00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:49,880 The, 1400 00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,680 we've seen customers then create centers of excellence, 1401 00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:53,440 right? 1402 00:47:53,540 --> 00:47:53,820 That, 1403 00:47:53,980 --> 00:47:58,780 and then create like a factory there where all the teams come through the, 1404 00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:00,720 factory and create hubs, 1405 00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,060 like almost like a hub and spoke model. 1406 00:48:03,460 --> 00:48:05,820 So once we see this wave of, 1407 00:48:05,820 --> 00:48:06,380 of, 1408 00:48:06,380 --> 00:48:11,680 of momentum getting generated after a successful engagement where other teams kind of build 1409 00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:12,480 on that success. 1410 00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:12,720 Well, 1411 00:48:12,740 --> 00:48:13,120 that's great. 1412 00:48:13,180 --> 00:48:13,300 Well, 1413 00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:14,220 I'm glad we had the, 1414 00:48:14,260 --> 00:48:16,620 the two of you on to give an overview of this. 1415 00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:17,120 It's like, 1416 00:48:17,180 --> 00:48:19,680 it can seem like a huge bundle of things, 1417 00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:22,160 but I think we condensed it down pretty well with y'all's help. 1418 00:48:22,580 --> 00:48:23,960 So before we leave, 1419 00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:24,920 you know, 1420 00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:28,600 if you could pick like one or two things to point people at, 1421 00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:29,100 if they, 1422 00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:30,960 if they're interested in more, 1423 00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:31,500 I, 1424 00:48:31,620 --> 00:48:31,780 you know, 1425 00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:32,580 whatever you might like, 1426 00:48:32,620 --> 00:48:34,580 whether it's technical or, 1427 00:48:34,580 --> 00:48:34,940 or, 1428 00:48:34,940 --> 00:48:37,140 or more meat wary or whatever, 1429 00:48:37,140 --> 00:48:37,580 like, 1430 00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:38,040 what do you think, 1431 00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:42,560 what do you think some good materials are when it comes to how people are doing app transformation 1432 00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:43,640 to dig into more? 1433 00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:44,000 Yeah. 1434 00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:44,020 Yeah. 1435 00:48:44,140 --> 00:48:47,120 There is pivotal.io slash replatforming. 1436 00:48:47,460 --> 00:48:48,220 You could, 1437 00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:53,560 you could head on there and kind of see what customers we have worked with. 1438 00:48:54,020 --> 00:48:54,500 What, 1439 00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:56,180 what are sort of the key outcomes? 1440 00:48:56,180 --> 00:49:02,840 See if you are into like single page or two page briefs or white papers or webinar links, 1441 00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:04,400 that's the place to kind of land. 1442 00:49:05,500 --> 00:49:07,440 Talk to your neighborhood, 1443 00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:10,480 pivotal platform architect or rep. 1444 00:49:10,620 --> 00:49:12,860 if you want more specific help, 1445 00:49:13,220 --> 00:49:13,600 we have, 1446 00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:15,000 we have done talks at, 1447 00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:15,780 I think SpringOne, 1448 00:49:15,900 --> 00:49:16,640 which you referenced, 1449 00:49:16,820 --> 00:49:17,060 Michael, 1450 00:49:17,340 --> 00:49:19,160 maybe we could put that in the show notes. 1451 00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:22,420 And then yeah, 1452 00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:25,880 overall we are very active in the community as well. 1453 00:49:26,700 --> 00:49:27,740 So yeah, 1454 00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:28,140 if you, 1455 00:49:28,140 --> 00:49:29,360 if you have any interest, 1456 00:49:29,580 --> 00:49:29,800 please, 1457 00:49:29,940 --> 00:49:30,540 please reach us, 1458 00:49:30,620 --> 00:49:32,200 please reach us to pivotly, 1459 00:49:32,240 --> 00:49:33,500 any of the pivotly channels. 1460 00:49:34,060 --> 00:49:35,600 We are more than, 1461 00:49:35,820 --> 00:49:43,180 we are more than eager to help you on your journey on an established and get that roadmap going for you. 1462 00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:43,640 For, 1463 00:49:43,820 --> 00:49:44,500 for me, 1464 00:49:44,720 --> 00:49:46,640 I was first starting, 1465 00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:47,760 you know, 1466 00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:50,300 my work with app transformation right before SpringOne, 1467 00:49:50,300 --> 00:49:50,940 in 2017. 1468 00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:53,620 And so going to the talks at SpringOne, 1469 00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:55,480 2017 was really helpful for me. 1470 00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,160 So that's kind of where I would say start because that's where I started. 1471 00:50:00,100 --> 00:50:03,520 But there are a lot of really interesting talks about, 1472 00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:04,740 you know, 1473 00:50:04,860 --> 00:50:05,860 carving up your application, 1474 00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:06,740 replatforming, 1475 00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:09,740 using some of the architectural patterns, 1476 00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:09,980 right? 1477 00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,720 With the Netflix OSS that, 1478 00:50:12,820 --> 00:50:14,400 that I think are solid and, 1479 00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:15,960 and I end up using every day. 1480 00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:16,300 Oh, 1481 00:50:16,340 --> 00:50:16,880 that sounds good. 1482 00:50:16,940 --> 00:50:17,060 Yeah. 1483 00:50:17,060 --> 00:50:18,940 I was just watching those this morning and thinking like, 1484 00:50:18,980 --> 00:50:19,180 man, 1485 00:50:19,240 --> 00:50:19,560 we have, 1486 00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:21,500 we put a lot of resources, 1487 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:25,280 thankfully into posting recordings of sessions that we have, 1488 00:50:25,460 --> 00:50:26,060 which is nice. 1489 00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:26,780 We should, 1490 00:50:26,860 --> 00:50:28,220 we should calculate one year, 1491 00:50:28,420 --> 00:50:29,260 one year, 1492 00:50:29,380 --> 00:50:29,680 sometime, 1493 00:50:29,820 --> 00:50:31,500 the total number of hours we have out there. 1494 00:50:31,740 --> 00:50:33,280 I don't know what we do with that, 1495 00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:34,440 but it seems like, 1496 00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:37,400 that seems like the kind of thing you would have one slide with the number on it, 1497 00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:38,540 and you could post about it. 1498 00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:40,560 I'll put the interns on that this summer. 1499 00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:41,120 We'll be set. 1500 00:50:43,240 --> 00:50:44,100 There you go. 1501 00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:45,920 The army of interns. 1502 00:50:46,460 --> 00:50:46,800 Well, 1503 00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:48,040 you know, 1504 00:50:48,180 --> 00:50:49,540 if there's any of those interns listening, 1505 00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:53,640 and you're not aware of where you can find the back catalog of episodes, 1506 00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:57,500 if you're interested in pursuing other great episodes, 1507 00:50:57,500 --> 00:50:59,280 and maybe even not so great ones, 1508 00:50:59,340 --> 00:51:00,800 if you're just looking to fill your time, 1509 00:51:01,300 --> 00:51:02,560 of Pivotal Conversations, 1510 00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:06,180 you can go to soundcloud.com slash Pivotal Conversations, 1511 00:51:06,500 --> 00:51:08,720 and there's all sorts of episodes there, 1512 00:51:08,940 --> 00:51:10,500 and more or less every Thursday, 1513 00:51:10,660 --> 00:51:12,020 we keep referring to show notes. 1514 00:51:12,340 --> 00:51:16,740 We'll post those show notes at pivotal.io slash podcast, 1515 00:51:17,240 --> 00:51:22,100 and also I believe if you're interested in a kind of thorough overview 1516 00:51:22,100 --> 00:51:23,560 of all the replatforming, 1517 00:51:23,740 --> 00:51:24,820 aptX stuff we have, 1518 00:51:24,860 --> 00:51:28,160 you can also go to pivotal.io slash replatforming. 1519 00:51:28,420 --> 00:51:29,560 No hyphen in there, 1520 00:51:29,900 --> 00:51:31,060 just replatforming, 1521 00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:32,460 and with that, 1522 00:51:32,580 --> 00:51:33,760 thanks again to our guests, 1523 00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:35,160 and we'll see everyone next time. 1524 00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:35,800 Bye-bye.