1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,100 Hello listeners. Something went crazy haywire with my network during this recording. I tried 2 00:00:06,100 --> 00:00:11,080 to go through and edit what I could in and out and fix some things up, but there's still 3 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:15,800 unfortunately plenty of things left over. So hopefully that doesn't impede your enjoyment. 4 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:21,380 And with that, enjoy the episode. Well, here we are again. It's been a long time. I had some 5 00:00:21,380 --> 00:00:27,360 live from the showroom for recordings. You know, did you, you know, it's okay if you didn't, 6 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:32,920 but did you happen to listen to the last episode with Josh Long? I need to, I feel bad listening to 7 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:39,240 episodes that I'm not on. So I have to get past that and just listen to those. Well, just for the 8 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:45,700 completionist out there, I had to go through a lot of thinking. So Josh and I, I think we talked about 9 00:00:45,700 --> 00:00:52,460 Singaporean and Malaysian food for like 15 minutes. And I was thinking, you know, this isn't, you know, 10 00:00:52,460 --> 00:00:58,740 on the face of it, uh, related to computers and maybe I should chop that up and put it at the end. 11 00:00:59,220 --> 00:01:06,180 But, uh, as usual with my fine editing skills, I did not do that. So I don't know if, if, uh, if 12 00:01:06,180 --> 00:01:11,120 some listener had to, uh, if, if it's suffering to hear about melee and Singaporean food, then maybe 13 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:16,400 you should really examine your life and what your interests are. But on the other hand, I apologize 14 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:23,020 about that. And, you know, also while I'm here apologizing, I listened to it and, uh, you know, 15 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:27,980 I can come off as a little bit of a conversational bully, but I was, I was just trying to draw out 16 00:01:27,980 --> 00:01:34,140 from Josh a few facts about chicken rice and Malaysian food. So I didn't mean to sound like I was doing 17 00:01:34,140 --> 00:01:40,100 that. He's, he's a sweetie, you know, no, no, uh, no bullying needed for him. So how about yourself? 18 00:01:40,180 --> 00:01:45,040 What do you, what have you been up to? Yeah, I know. We haven't talked a little while. So, uh, 19 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:49,520 you know, we're just talking to ourselves, forget the podcast. Uh, yeah, between a lot of business 20 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:53,720 travel lately is in London, you're traveling more than me, but every other week for the last couple 21 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:58,600 months been on the road, but good customer things, good conferences, you know, it's, uh, all productive 22 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:03,240 stuff. Oh, that's exciting. So I, I noticed, I don't know if we've talked about it here, but you, 23 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:07,780 you have some new talk you've been giving called abstractions, which I'm pretty sure is not about 24 00:02:07,780 --> 00:02:13,740 Q-tip, uh, the, the nineties rapper, but what's, what's, uh, what's the arc of that talk? What 25 00:02:13,740 --> 00:02:17,860 goes on with it? That's funny. Uh, I think it's the question. Well, the question I'm trying to 26 00:02:17,860 --> 00:02:24,760 answer is how do you decide what runs where? Cause I mean, I think it's easy enough for someone to say, 27 00:02:24,820 --> 00:02:28,620 we've got some news items on Kubernetes, but you know, everything's not going to go there. 28 00:02:28,920 --> 00:02:32,220 Everything's not going to go in functions. Everything's not going to go in applications or 29 00:02:32,220 --> 00:02:37,180 VMs or hardware. So what are the honest conversations about what things are optimized 30 00:02:37,180 --> 00:02:42,620 today for given abstractions? How do you even make decisions about, do I need to move from A to B? 31 00:02:42,860 --> 00:02:47,040 Can it be happy here? Does it need to go somewhere else? So the talk I've been doing for some customers 32 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:52,960 and some other settings is just kind of what are those abstractions? What are the things that those 33 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:57,600 are good at? And therefore kind of what workloads maybe would you put on still bare metal today 34 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:02,700 versus jamming into a container versus sticking into a function? And it seems like that goes over 35 00:03:02,700 --> 00:03:07,740 well. Cause a lot of people are still trying to figure that out. There is no one massive flow chart, 36 00:03:07,740 --> 00:03:11,900 although maybe you and I would have fun building that, but there's no massive, like choose your own 37 00:03:11,900 --> 00:03:17,180 adventure for deploying it at this point. It's unfortunately to some extent based on what do you 38 00:03:17,180 --> 00:03:24,280 have? Like I can't say, Hey, put this in functions. If you have no functions today platform. So sometimes it's 39 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:28,160 also based on what are your existing investments, what are your existing skills, what kind of things 40 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:33,100 are you aiming for? But there is a, you know, it's harder than it was before. You can't just jam 41 00:03:33,100 --> 00:03:38,280 everything in a VM and call it a day. And that's exciting, but also means for a lot of companies, 42 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:42,260 there's a lot of confusion and it's almost departmental. It's almost this group likes this. 43 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:46,420 So they put things here. This group likes that, which really kills your operational efficiency 44 00:03:46,420 --> 00:03:52,380 really kind of kills the rotation ability for teams to bounce between different teams. Cause every 45 00:03:52,380 --> 00:03:56,360 team has a different tool chain. Every team's deploying differently. Like I love the diversity, 46 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,600 but at the same time, it seems like maybe some ground rules are helpful. 47 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:04,580 That does sound good. I was just talking to someone about, uh, how you select where to put workloads 48 00:04:04,580 --> 00:04:09,440 between all the clouds and stuff yesterday. So, uh, I should go check that out. You know, 49 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:13,800 that also makes me think, I don't know if you have any role in doing things like this, 50 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:18,520 but we should, uh, we should set up some sort of like, uh, recording people giving their talks 51 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:23,120 so people can see them. Cause I, I, you know, it would be nice to see a recording of you giving 52 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:27,860 that talk and all these other people have talks and you, you're sort of like, uh, as a presenter, 53 00:04:27,860 --> 00:04:32,580 you're dependent on the conferences you go to, to like film that and publish it. But you know, 54 00:04:32,580 --> 00:04:38,820 we could just like log into some zoom thing and, uh, try to be on our best sort of presentation 55 00:04:38,820 --> 00:04:43,300 behavior and present something that, that would, that would be exciting. That's probably something I 56 00:04:43,300 --> 00:04:47,960 could just do on my own instead of making someone else do it. It'd be good. Yeah. And then we can 57 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:51,580 have, we can have a little series. There you go. You know, add some code save value. Uh-huh. Exactly. 58 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:59,000 Finally do something around here. That's right. Well, uh, so there's been, I mean, there's been a lot 59 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:03,080 of news, uh, since last we talked, but I think, I think there's a good little selection of it. Like 60 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:08,620 as always, as always, as we talk about on my other talk, software defined talk, there's always a bunch 61 00:05:08,620 --> 00:05:14,800 of Kubernetes stuff going on. And it seems like, uh, I think, I think all the, uh, all the public 62 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:20,940 KSs, so to speak, the Kubernetes service or container services are, uh, those of like generally 63 00:05:20,940 --> 00:05:26,220 all GA'd, right? Like Amazon has it and Azure has it. I assume Google's had it for a long time, 64 00:05:26,260 --> 00:05:31,660 of course, but it seems like, uh, there's full GA of everything. If you want to go all public cloud 65 00:05:31,660 --> 00:05:35,900 with that. That's right. Yeah. And then it's only in the last week or so, depending on when you 66 00:05:35,900 --> 00:05:41,760 listen to this, but, uh, and your service for Cooper or EKS recently, then Microsoft the next 67 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:46,100 day shipped the AKS, the Azure Kubernetes service. And they're very different. It's not the same 68 00:05:46,100 --> 00:05:51,480 thing, but as you mentioned, Google's had there since 2014. So they've clearly been, uh, been the 69 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,340 grandfather of hosted Kubernetes at this point and probably still the most mature and the most 70 00:05:55,340 --> 00:05:59,540 feature rich, but Azure has got a good story here. They're actually managing the whole thing. 71 00:05:59,620 --> 00:06:04,020 It's easy to build out the full environment, scale environments, integrates with different 72 00:06:04,020 --> 00:06:08,280 Azure services. So it's a pretty good looking offering. Of course, like any, there's things 73 00:06:08,280 --> 00:06:11,840 that are kind of specific to each cloud to make it easier to manage and deploy them, but they're 74 00:06:11,840 --> 00:06:16,400 still deploying vanilla Kubernetes, which is great. Amazon's is a little different. It's, 75 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:22,020 it deploys a control plane for you. You know, the things that run Kubernetes, like the API server 76 00:06:22,020 --> 00:06:25,920 and the database, but then you as a user would build out all the worker nodes that actually run 77 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:30,460 your containers. And then you would manage those. You would patch those. You would upgrade 78 00:06:30,460 --> 00:06:34,080 those. So there's a different level of responsibility on each of these services, 79 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,760 services, different kinds of provisioning experiences. Of course, different integrations 80 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:43,140 as Amazon integrates with Amazon things and Microsoft integrates with Microsoft things, 81 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,760 Google with Google things. And that may be fine if that's where you're putting them all, 82 00:06:46,840 --> 00:06:51,420 but it's interesting to watch each, each one of these has good offerings. We still see obviously 83 00:06:51,420 --> 00:06:55,020 a lot of customers asking for things that stripe across all of them, which is why 84 00:06:55,020 --> 00:07:00,360 pivotal container service PKS seems to be doing well. Yeah. I mean, there is that. Yeah. You're right. 85 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:06,340 It's interesting. I'll have to go look up there. There must be some, some sort of analyst or blogger 86 00:07:06,340 --> 00:07:10,840 or whatever they call them nowadays. Who's done some side-by-side comparison, but it'd be fun to see 87 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:17,200 the choices that each, I don't know what you would call distribution. It's, it's, it's weird to think of 88 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:23,400 a distribution as like a public cloud running service, but it'd be fun to sort of like entertain myself 89 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:28,040 by decoding what their, their strategy is and their, their intentions based on what, what they're 90 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:33,480 implementing. So then there was another, uh, another fun post that was basically like, like an overview 91 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:38,480 of, uh, how to deal with all the updates in Kubernetes, which, you know, I think, I think to 92 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:43,040 give a summary of it, it's a summary you would expect that we learned from the OpenStack world and 93 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:48,000 every other like base layer of infrastructure is like, as long as you keep up with the updates, 94 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:56,420 everything will be fine, which, which I, I think, I think, uh, yeah, there will always be people who, 95 00:07:56,580 --> 00:08:01,940 uh, uh, uh, you know, want to, want to incur the sort of like technical infrastructure debt 96 00:08:01,940 --> 00:08:07,700 of not updating and patching things, which, which is a poor choice in the longterm. But 97 00:08:07,700 --> 00:08:13,800 in general, that's probably what is a good idea is just to keep things updated. Uh, but it has a, 98 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,820 it has an interesting, uh, there's sort of like proof that the overall community spends a lot of 99 00:08:17,820 --> 00:08:23,220 time on exactly that, uh, that issue. And then the other part that's interesting to it is the, uh, 100 00:08:23,900 --> 00:08:29,040 the sort of changing nature of what, um, uh, you know, what traditionally you would call like 101 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:33,800 long-term support, or I forget all the funny acronyms people use, but there's, there's a slightly 102 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:37,600 different way of thinking about that, that at the moment, at every, if everything in a project 103 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:44,140 like Kubernetes is updating very frequently, the idea of having like a 10 year support not only sounds 104 00:08:44,140 --> 00:08:50,520 a little weird, but it also might not really apply anymore. If, uh, things are vibrant enough 105 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:55,660 to be, to be updating frequently. I, I never really spent that much time like decoding who's 106 00:08:55,660 --> 00:08:59,700 written this and therefore what their biases are, but there's been several lengthy posts on Kubernetes 107 00:08:59,700 --> 00:09:04,120 recently from all sorts of, uh, little, little vendors, or I don't know if they're little, 108 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:08,540 but all sorts of parties, but there's, there's, there's a whole bevy of them at the moment. 109 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:12,800 Yeah. On your, uh, your first piece of updates, I think what we've been seeing more and more, 110 00:09:12,860 --> 00:09:19,480 and you might see this too, is Kubernetes isn't like SharePoint. I don't have one customer. 111 00:09:19,940 --> 00:09:23,700 And so what we're seeing with a lot of these companies is they've got, you know, one or two, 112 00:09:23,740 --> 00:09:26,720 and then they're planning on expanding to dozens, even a couple of people going to hundreds 113 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:29,800 because it's departmental, it's different regions, it's different debt, 114 00:09:30,580 --> 00:09:35,260 test fraud. So it's one thing to patch one thing. And that might even be complicated as 115 00:09:35,260 --> 00:09:39,260 you patch monthly, as you patch quarterly on, you know, minor upgrades, but what happens 116 00:09:39,260 --> 00:09:43,600 when you have four or five updates a quarter across 50 things strategy, that's not her works. 117 00:09:43,860 --> 00:09:47,980 You're going to kill your team. So as you think about, okay, if my future is a federated set 118 00:09:47,980 --> 00:09:52,520 of clusters, what is a proper upgrade strategy when I can't just count on, let's just do this 119 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:58,380 annually, all hands on deck. This might be a continual update process across dozens or hundreds 120 00:09:58,380 --> 00:10:02,500 of things that seems like it requires rethinking it. And that's good. It's a good conversation to 121 00:10:02,500 --> 00:10:05,920 have, but people are, I think, getting a little surprised by the work involved in that. 122 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:11,800 So, uh, yeah. So another thing, like, since you're always the, uh, the .NET people, I think we have 123 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:17,980 three Richard related .NET things to go over this episode. And the first one is, uh, we had one of 124 00:10:17,980 --> 00:10:21,180 our build packs got updated for, for .NET course. What's the story with that? 125 00:10:21,180 --> 00:10:27,800 Yeah. I mean, it's pretty cool that, uh, .NET 2.1 came out the end of May. So new development tools, 126 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:32,380 new things in the framework and library, better performance, better build performance. And one 127 00:10:32,380 --> 00:10:36,700 of the nice things is that if you're trying to figure out like, Hey, I want to use the latest 128 00:10:36,700 --> 00:10:41,300 and greatest, but I hate when my platform seems to trail by six or 12 months, we do pretty good 129 00:10:41,300 --> 00:10:46,680 with build packs. So build packs are, again, these things that take your code, kind of build the slug or 130 00:10:46,680 --> 00:10:52,180 build the thing that turns into a container at runtime on the, on the server. And so it 131 00:10:52,180 --> 00:10:56,540 builds, you know, pulls in the app server, builds up the, you know, uses the remote or the file 132 00:10:56,540 --> 00:11:00,500 system that pivotal provides or the build pack provides really, and kind of just builds your, 133 00:11:00,660 --> 00:11:05,360 you know, puts together what's needed to run your application. So arguably, I don't even think 134 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:09,920 arguably, cause I check this all the time. If you want to run the latest version of node JS, 135 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:14,240 that's typically in a build pack versus even in the public cloud. If you're running the latest 136 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:20,080 versions of Java, Spring, Ruby, go node, all these things, build packs are great. We just updated the 137 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:26,340 .NET one. So if you're building .NET 2.1 apps, the build pack now will recognize those and build it 138 00:11:26,340 --> 00:11:30,700 accordingly. So the nice thing is you, you always feel like you have not just the current version, 139 00:11:30,780 --> 00:11:35,900 it always includes the last few as well, but it's nice where you don't feel hamstrung by your platform 140 00:11:35,900 --> 00:11:40,200 when you want to use the latest and greatest. So if you're a .NET developer, you're in great shape today. 141 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:44,640 And, and, you know, to broaden it a little bit, like what, uh, how would you characterize like the, 142 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:50,080 the, the cloud native .NET world at the moment? There's always a lot of like, as we all sorts of, 143 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:54,840 all sorts of platform infrastructure stuff. And we're always familiar with like, uh, what's going on in the 144 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:59,460 Java world, but, uh, what are they doing over there? Are they, are they still doing a lot of .NET or are they 145 00:11:59,460 --> 00:12:06,340 all like Mike, you know, uh, modern day Microsoft polyglot or, uh, what's, what's their lives look 146 00:12:06,340 --> 00:12:11,260 like if you're a firing up visual studio all the time or whatever it is that those kids over there 147 00:12:11,260 --> 00:12:17,220 are using? Yeah. I mean, now you're using classic visual studio still on windows. I have visual studio 148 00:12:17,220 --> 00:12:23,240 for Mac on my desktop, same with visual studio code, the free cross-platform editor. So development 149 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:29,280 tools have, have gotten better. You're seeing with .NET core, this option to run .NET apps on Linux or 150 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:34,200 windows. And for a lot of folks running on Linux gives them those benefits of more mature, mature 151 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:38,840 DevOps tooling, better automation than what's traditionally been there in a windows environment. 152 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:44,140 So .NET does finally have choice of where they run stuff, which is nice. They've got choice of new 153 00:12:44,140 --> 00:12:50,680 languages and framework pieces like .NET core using things like steel toe for microservices. You've got 154 00:12:50,680 --> 00:12:56,040 finally good first party support in all the clouds, which was not the case just a few years ago. So 155 00:12:56,040 --> 00:13:01,320 not just the Azure cloud, which you would expect does a good job with .NET, but that Amazon, you know, 156 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:07,000 works hard to get .NET developers. Google works really hard to get .NET developers. So I like seeing that 157 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:12,680 they're trying to provide software development kits, SDKs. They're providing first party support in some of 158 00:13:12,680 --> 00:13:18,760 their paths like services or even in their function platforms. So you're seeing better places to run 159 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:24,440 things, better ways to build things, kind of better tooling for the desktop. So I'm not seeing myself 160 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:30,520 as any sort of wholesale abandonment of .NET. I think .NET Core has helped. I think that over the 161 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:36,040 last few years, Microsoft was almost training .NET developers to also learn things like JavaScript and 162 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:40,760 purposely hedge their bets just in case, you know, maybe they weren't going to do as much with .NET, 163 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:45,480 but they've doubled down on that. And in the meantime, all these devs have hopefully picked up some other 164 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:50,120 front-end skills that are helpful as they're building, you know, better modern apps. So it's a good 165 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:54,760 ecosystem. It seems to be growing. I feel like you're teeing me up for stuff since I do have a 166 00:13:54,760 --> 00:14:01,800 meetup in Austin in a couple of weeks to talk about the .NET renaissance. I'm doing it for a customer 167 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:06,440 as well in a kind of a keynote session, but then doing a meetup that evening. I'm writing a book on 168 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:11,480 the topic. So I'm starting to dig in on this a little more and hopefully helping these .NET devs 169 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:16,040 modernize their existing stuff. Yeah. You know, as, as, as ever, you're like the .NET guy. 170 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:21,160 Yeah. It's just, it's just, it's in the water supply up there. 171 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:26,600 It is. That's unless you've got like a Brita water filter, like you just end up doing .NET all 172 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:33,080 the time. They put something in there. Another thing I'm always, that's right. Another thing I like, 173 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:37,800 I'm always interested to get a sense of is like, so what, and, and, and it might just be like, 174 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:41,480 like the answer is everything, which is fine. But do you think there's any like particularly 175 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:47,480 interesting characterization of the types of application and workloads that .NET people do? 176 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:51,800 Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, traditionally it's all of it. It's, it's batch jobs, it's 177 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:57,160 running services, it's web apps. It's obviously front end forms application sitting on a developer's 178 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:02,840 desktop or a user's desktop, or even sold as software that people open up. But you look at some 179 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,520 of the biggest sites on the internet, like Stack Overflow, right? It's a classic .NET 180 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:11,240 application that runs at some of the biggest scale on the internet. So you've got everything 181 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:16,440 from APIs and web services. I think traditionally, it's been a lot of web apps, especially the last 182 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:22,520 10 years, web apps, APIs, backend components, you know, those sort of pieces. And then, you know, 183 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:27,160 more and more, there's more obviously JavaScript and things on the front end to, to power that, 184 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:32,280 that the front end doesn't matter as much as the, as it did before for some of those other languages. 185 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:37,560 So I see a lot more, a lot of backend components, a lot of APIs, but then still plenty of things just 186 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:43,880 cranking out in the data center jobs that move data between services or restart things or process 187 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:48,040 things from an FTP share, things we don't like to talk about, but things that still probably power 188 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:54,120 a lot of business. Yeah, that was, that was always my, my impression of a substantial amount 189 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,040 of .NET applications is there. I don't know how to characterize it, but they're just like 190 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:03,160 internal corporate apps that, that people would make. And as you point out with like stack overflow 191 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:09,560 and other stuff, and I forget, I mean, does, does eBay still .NET stuff? Maybe they changed over from 192 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:14,440 that, but there's plenty of big, like large sites to do it, but it does seem like because of the ease 193 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:20,360 of use of getting, you know, um, creating an application and deploying it and managing it all, 194 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:25,240 all being into the windows stack that it was, uh, it was a good choice if you just needed to make a, 195 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:30,600 uh, small, but valuable internal application for things, which I guess, I guess it's still the case, 196 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:34,040 but then. Yeah. But you make a good point there though. I mean, we should remember that the reason 197 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:38,120 that it's probably not the favorite tool of startups and a lot of these folks is because there was 198 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:44,520 always this tax of a having to run on windows. And that was a licensed component. Visual studio was never 199 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:49,080 free. So if you were just kind of get started, that's why .NET has typically been associated with 200 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,840 enterprise because those are ones that had agreements to use the tooling. They were running 201 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:58,360 windows at scale. They're running on the desktop. That's arguably a reason that most popular DevOps 202 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:03,400 tooling like chef and Ansible and, you know, Terraform and these things came really late to 203 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:07,640 windows is because the initial people were solving problems on Linux because that was the quote unquote 204 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:12,440 free and open source stack. So hopefully .NET core and some of these other things are making 205 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:18,920 .NET developers feel like, Hey, I could just pick this up and run completely free on Linux and use my 206 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:23,480 SQL and use things that aren't tied to windows, but that just wasn't the case for the last couple of 207 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:28,200 years. So, so then also, uh, and, and, and yeah, we'll get back to the, uh, it'll be, 208 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:32,200 hopefully I'll be able to make it to the thing in Austin. That'll be fun. But then also, uh, 209 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:38,280 uh, racks the new service for, for doing co-location, which I guess like, uh, I think, 210 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:42,280 I think for many years now they've sort of moved to the, I don't know if anyone calls it like 211 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:46,760 enterprise cloud anymore, but to sort of high touch cloud services. So having, 212 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:51,560 having more, uh, you know, a co-location service makes a lot of sense for them. 213 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:56,120 Yeah. And I spoke to an industry analyst a few weeks ago and kind of asked what are they seeing 214 00:17:56,120 --> 00:18:01,720 in co-location? Like, why is this actually rising? You would think that co-location would suffer in 215 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:06,760 the cloud era. And the one thing the analyst told me is actually it's, it's spiking in the cloud era, 216 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,880 because for a lot of companies who are shutting down their data centers, they move whatever they 217 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:14,840 can to public cloud. The rest goes to a co-location provider. So that might not be long lived. 218 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:19,640 That might be something that only is good business for another 10 years. But in the meantime, 219 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:24,440 this represents something that I don't own anymore. And so if I'm a rack space, as you say, 220 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:29,320 is good for high touch, you know, quality service. Pivotal has a good partnership with them. 221 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:34,040 But a lot of companies trust them for managed services, managed hosting. It's also great to say, 222 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:39,160 hey, take my other random stuff that's filling up my data center. Can you just run that for me? 223 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:43,480 So I think that's a pretty smart, savvy move on their part. We'll see how much it takes up. 224 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:47,640 They quote my old friends at 451 to your point of saying that there's a, 225 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:54,120 oh, a compound annual growth rate. That's crazy of 12% through 2020, which I always have to remember 226 00:18:54,120 --> 00:18:59,960 that this is 2018. So 2020 is not as far out as that it used to be as far out as it used to be in 227 00:18:59,960 --> 00:19:05,880 like 1996, which I think temporally, my mind's like locked on that year. Very confusing. But yeah, 228 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:12,120 that is only like, what, two and a half years. But still, it is that it is sort of counterintuitive 229 00:19:12,120 --> 00:19:14,920 that you would see people moving there. But it gets to what we're talking about earlier where, 230 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:21,720 and I guess I encountered this a lot, a lot of, a lot of, you know, CIO types and the level 231 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:27,960 right below. Oh, they're trying to figure out as boring as this phrasing of it sounds workload 232 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:34,600 placement and like where they would put things and how to manage that. And it's almost like as you're 233 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:40,520 going over the rack space stuff, I was thinking it's like, maybe not terribly, but interesting, 234 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:45,000 interestingly, like analogous to like all the outsourcing talk that people had, I guess, 235 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:49,400 a couple of decades ago now. So hopefully, it should turn out a lot better than that. 236 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:54,280 Of course, it is. It is interesting to think about the way the way that cost controls and the way that 237 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:58,200 you can optimize your costs based on the simple act of where you run your software is, 238 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:05,080 versus, I don't know, not. So as, you know, as we like to do in the middle of news. So there's only, 239 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:09,320 I think we only have like two events to speak to. I was trying to think of if there's anything, 240 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:15,480 I've been traveling a lot, but I don't think I have anything in the near future. So as you mentioned, 241 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:20,680 you're going to be here in Austin on July 10th at the Cloud Native Meetup, talking about an expanded 242 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:24,840 version of a little bit of what we just did, I guess, about how things are going on in, 243 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:31,160 in with .NET and the Cloud Native space at a meetup. I will put a link to it there in the show notes, 244 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:35,320 but that's, that's not too, not too far from now. But what's, what's, what's further of a little 245 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:40,680 preview to cap it off that you would give people? Yeah, I'll do some demos and some, some discussion. 246 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:45,560 But again, I think the main focus is, what do we mean by, you know, even Cloud Native in 247 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,640 the .NET sense? What are some, some new anti patterns? Sometimes we go through times where 248 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:54,040 something seemed like a great practice 10, 15 years ago, and now you're, you're scolded for doing it. 249 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:58,760 So kind of what are the newest anti patterns? If you're a .NET dev, what are those places where 250 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,600 you do have choices to run? How do you map some of the old to the new though? Because you're not 251 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:09,080 going to go find a cloud service to run your Windows forms applications. That's not the technology that 252 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:13,480 maps over there or certain services. So how do you kind of map what you have? What are the new places 253 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,920 to run? What are some of the tooling things that you should be aware of? And kind of how do you get 254 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:23,400 started with what you have? Because as we just talked about, if we assume that .NET is typically associated with enterprises, 255 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:27,480 that means that virtually none of them are starting from scratch. They're all starting with 256 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:32,200 dozens, hundreds, thousands of applications. What do you do with that? Like that, you just can't start 257 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:36,840 over. So what are some strategies and things to think about there? That should be a fun talk. I'm 258 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:42,120 looking forward to putting it together. Yeah, yeah. And the, the people who run it always have good food 259 00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:50,200 and beverages. That's key. That'll be nice. Yeah. You know, speak, I mean, another thing, we'll put it in the 260 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:55,000 should bucket. We should have some sort of like little internal summit and come up with some extensive white paper 261 00:21:55,000 --> 00:22:01,000 about workload placement across everything. It seems like, like, you know, what, what with us 262 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:07,320 opening up with all these, these Kubernetes things, and then our, you know, existing platform as a service, 263 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:12,280 like, like we have with the pivotal application service, and then, and then everything else. There's, 264 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:19,240 let me see if this is true. This is probably more or less true that there's more, let's call them 265 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:24,520 platforms, more types of infrastructure and platforms to choose to run your stuff on. I wouldn't say than 266 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:31,240 ever before, but then, then we've had in recent memory, like it's not really, I think for a long time, 267 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:37,240 it was basically like, I'm going to run this on Linux, or Windows supported by VMware underneath. 268 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:43,480 And that's kind of it. Or, or I'm going to run it in like EC2 or something like that. But, but, 269 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:47,640 but I don't admit, I don't know when, when it started happening, maybe in the last, 270 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:52,440 it would probably be most viable in the past three or four years, you could use five if you wanted to be 271 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:59,160 roundy. Does five count as a round number? Or is it only even numbers that are round? I'll give you round. 272 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:05,720 Okay, that's good. I like putting a lot of thought on that. That was good. But, 273 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:10,200 uh, you know, I, I, it would, it would be, uh, I don't know if very many like overviews that help 274 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:17,080 figure out like, you know, just, uh, sorting through that, like, ultimately I think what you 275 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:21,400 would want when you would get this from some of the, uh, what do they call them? The Gartner technology 276 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:28,520 people. Uh, like it's, it'd be fun to have some sort of like spreadsheet that, that you could start 277 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:33,000 with just kind of like characterizing your, uh, your workloads and their attributes and then 278 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:38,040 trying to match them to, uh, to, uh, what infrastructure to run on. And I, I think, uh, 279 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:43,960 was it Matt Stein? He had a series recently kind of related to that. It was called, should that be a 280 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:48,760 microservice? Uh, and, but it'd be a similar thing of walking through, because man, the, the choices are, 281 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:55,240 uh, there's too many of them, too many of them to be an exercise. So I'm sure lots of people could, 282 00:23:55,240 --> 00:24:01,640 uh, use help with that. Yeah, no doubt. I think that was Nate. So then he's on microservices. 283 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,480 Oh yeah, that's right. I think to your, to what we talked about earlier, it's not even just this 284 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:10,760 sort of sterile, Hey, is your app this big in this language on this OS? There's also kind of what's 285 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,840 your current investments in technology? What, what does your team make up? Do you have outsourced 286 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:19,000 development? All those things will factor it in, but I don't think you have to, uh, hedge your bets. 287 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,640 I think we have more ways to run apps now than literally ever. I, the last time I counted, 288 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:29,640 there were nine ways I could run a Java app in Azure. Like that's, you know, that's kind of crazy, 289 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:35,480 but that's just reality. So that's, that's, I guess there's that I was, I wasn't even thinking 290 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,240 within each cloud, you have different options. So no, you're right. It probably is more, more than 291 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:43,800 ever. It's not just, it's not just across your various, I was thinking maybe in like 292 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:50,680 the late eighties or nineties, you would have all of the Unix's plus the mini computers and the main 293 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:56,360 frames, early windows, and then like probably other random weird stuff, uh, that you could run it on. 294 00:24:56,360 --> 00:25:00,520 But even that is probably a more limited set than like, you know, nine ways to run it on 295 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:06,540 Azure. If you add that up across everything, plus you have all the old stuff, maybe there's no more 296 00:25:06,540 --> 00:25:11,260 Univac running, but, uh, you still have, uh, existing older platforms to run things on. 297 00:25:11,260 --> 00:25:15,500 Yeah. Well then also, uh, the other event as always to remind people, speaking of 298 00:25:15,500 --> 00:25:21,780 choosing where to run the workloads, we have our annual, uh, conference SpringOne platform, 299 00:25:21,780 --> 00:25:27,060 uh, coming up September 24th to 27th. It's in the, uh, Washington, Washington DC area, 300 00:25:27,220 --> 00:25:34,000 technically in Maryland, which is great because it means you can get crab, uh, to eat. Crabs are great 301 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:40,300 to eat. Always tasty. I actually was in Singapore recently and I got a giant, uh, Alaskan snow crab. 302 00:25:40,300 --> 00:25:43,600 I'll have to find a picture of it. Well, I have one. I should remember to link a picture in here. 303 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:49,840 And, uh, one of our, one of our, our, uh, our salespeople, uh, this guy, Dennis over, over there 304 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:54,600 who covers, uh, South Asia, he took me out to, uh, the place you're supposed to get chili crab. 305 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,720 And it was amazing. And I was telling my wife this story last week, like they bring, 306 00:25:59,120 --> 00:26:04,520 they bring the crab out for you. And, uh, of course I picked the crab up to take a picture 307 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,200 with, but I didn't realize it was still alive. It's like a fancy steak place where they present 308 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,720 your steak. But I thought the crab had just been cooked and chilled. And so I picked it up, 309 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:18,580 but it was actually a live crab that I had. So, uh, luckily it didn't grab my nose or anything, 310 00:26:19,140 --> 00:26:23,500 but, but it is, if you, if you ever, I think they call it jumbo seafood. If you're, if you're in 311 00:26:23,500 --> 00:26:28,680 Singapore, you should go get the chili crab. It's, it's delicious. Anyhow, they don't have 312 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:33,460 gigantic crabs in Maryland, but they are good crabs. And, uh, if you can just bring one platform 313 00:26:33,460 --> 00:26:38,080 there, we'll have all sorts of sessions from, uh, technical ones to more how, how, what are the, 314 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:43,780 the, the tips and tricks of transforming your organization? And then of course, some great 315 00:26:43,780 --> 00:26:49,880 keynotes and things like that. And, uh, if you use the code S1P200 underscore Coté, you can 316 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:54,400 get $200 off. And hopefully if I get enough people to sign up, I'll get like a nice pin 317 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:59,740 or an extra water bottle or something. It'll be like, uh, it'll be like those old days when 318 00:26:59,740 --> 00:27:04,200 you sell popcorn for the boy Scouts and you get like a compass or something like that. 319 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:10,880 Yeah. You'll get very nice, but we recently announced the socks. Definitely. You know, 320 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:15,720 vendors love putting socks out nowadays. Got to get more socks. But, uh, we recently announced 321 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:20,540 like, uh, several, a round of speakers, uh, if I recall, and they look pretty good. So 322 00:27:20,540 --> 00:27:23,500 you can go kind of peruse, we'll be speaking there and get a sense of it, but you should 323 00:27:23,500 --> 00:27:27,780 come check that out. Should be awesome. And, uh, you alluded to this earlier, but I like 324 00:27:27,780 --> 00:27:31,660 the tweet that you had, you know, you're like, ah, it's the, uh, it's the recharging lazy 325 00:27:31,660 --> 00:27:37,080 days of summer. So I decided I should sign up to write a book and also record two courses 326 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:42,320 on something. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. You're a pretty productive person. That sounds 327 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:47,100 easy. That's almost like a vacation for you, right? I know. I mean, I was, uh, this morning 328 00:27:47,100 --> 00:27:50,940 thinking that I was almost in a cold sweat. Like why did I sign up for so many things over 329 00:27:50,940 --> 00:27:55,220 the summer? This seems like bad decision-making, but yeah, for the most part, stuff I enjoy doing. 330 00:27:55,300 --> 00:28:00,140 So yeah, I signed a contract to write a book with O'Reilly on modernizing.net apps. So I 331 00:28:00,140 --> 00:28:04,640 thought that'd be fun. It won't be a gargantuan 700 page war and peace sort of thing. It's more 332 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:10,680 of a 7,500 pager that, uh, gives people some good plans forward, but that'll be fun. I think 333 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:15,220 I'll have that delivered before SpringOne. Uh, also, yeah, I think I'm doing a couple 334 00:28:15,220 --> 00:28:19,580 of plural site courses, one on cloud native architecture, one updating one of my DevOps 335 00:28:19,580 --> 00:28:24,160 courses there and all the new things happening in DevOps. So that should be fun. And then 336 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:28,220 yeah, I've got the, uh, conference, a couple of conferences coming up, speaking at the agile 337 00:28:28,220 --> 00:28:33,420 conference on what product ownership really means. And then the end of August, speaking at 338 00:28:33,420 --> 00:28:38,280 plural sites conference about what the Voyager space mission can teach you about distributed 339 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:44,860 systems. So that should be a, whoa. Now I assume, I assume that's the actual Voyager space mission 340 00:28:44,860 --> 00:28:46,500 and not captain Janeway ship. 341 00:28:47,420 --> 00:28:51,780 Yes. The actual, is this the Vigo that's out there? 342 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:53,020 That's right. 343 00:28:53,060 --> 00:28:55,620 Is that, is that the one with the, with the golden disc on it? 344 00:28:55,820 --> 00:28:57,160 It is with the golden record. 345 00:28:57,740 --> 00:28:57,960 Yeah. 346 00:28:58,100 --> 00:29:02,540 Yeah. Yeah. That's a, there's a, there's a lot of parallels. When I was reading about it, 347 00:29:02,540 --> 00:29:06,580 there's a good movie on it on Netflix that I was just absorbing a lot about the mission. 348 00:29:06,580 --> 00:29:10,880 And a lot of it, as always, when I read things, it makes me think of how it reacts to my, you 349 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,040 know, relates to my real life. And so there were a number of things that I thought, gosh, 350 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:18,600 that's a good lesson, even from the seventies on how we would build a modern distributed system 351 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,440 today. And this would be a fun talk. And sure enough, someone was silly enough to take it. 352 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:28,400 Yeah. That, that, that, that would have been interesting. Maybe this is probably actually 353 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:33,040 documented since it was like a, a government project, but there must've been a lot of thinking 354 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:38,280 going into like, what, what's this gold album going to have on it? Like, it's, it's a, it's 355 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:44,800 a weird sort of thinking to think like this type of, of, of animal you've never, or living 356 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,740 thing you've never encountered before will know what to do with this gold record. But 357 00:29:47,740 --> 00:29:51,880 what the best part of that, maybe, maybe that's a interoperability point. 358 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:56,680 Yeah. I mean, they literally had six weeks to put it together, which I thought was awesome. 359 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,640 So that was like a last minute thing. And then you had to include an actual record player 360 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,620 because how, what else are you going to, you know, I'm not going to find some civilization 361 00:30:03,620 --> 00:30:08,240 that has a record player sitting around. So it's a, yeah, fascinating. It can survive, 362 00:30:08,340 --> 00:30:12,720 you know, millions of years based on, you know, the lack of things in the vacuum of space. 363 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:13,920 So that's pretty wild stuff. 364 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:19,880 Well, there you go. Six weeks. That's the typical enterprise software project cycle. 365 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,080 So I'm sure it went swimmingly. 366 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:31,440 Yeah. So what do you, so, well, well, so I, I, I guess I've been traveling a lot, like, 367 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:37,600 like I've mentioned in other, in other podcasts I do where I'm going to go, I'm planning on moving 368 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:42,260 to a, and, and moving to Amsterdam for a, for two years to like help out with, with pivotal 369 00:30:42,260 --> 00:30:48,380 stuff over there in Europe, or I should say a MIA. There's also a whole, that sort of hemisphere. 370 00:30:49,380 --> 00:30:54,720 And, and, and to answer the question that funny snarky people often have, yes, my family is moving 371 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:59,700 there too. So I've been doing a lot of work around that. Like I, I just came back from Amsterdam 372 00:30:59,700 --> 00:31:06,660 with my wife to check schools and housing and things like that. And first of all, so it's a great place. 373 00:31:06,660 --> 00:31:11,500 It's, it's like, I don't think it gets above like 70 degrees there. They use some other funny system 374 00:31:11,500 --> 00:31:16,760 to rate the temperature that I'll have to get used to, but it's kind of amazing coming from Austin. 375 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:23,180 You go out there in June and like, you need a jacket or light jacket. It's crazy. But yeah. And 376 00:31:23,180 --> 00:31:27,020 then, and then also like, you know, if, if, if a listener's room, the last two episodes, I was in 377 00:31:27,020 --> 00:31:34,740 like Singapore and Bangkok. And I got the chance to give a few talks there. I finally gave my 378 00:31:34,740 --> 00:31:39,200 Kubernetes for the confused talk and there's a recording out there, but as with the first time, 379 00:31:39,500 --> 00:31:41,660 I don't know how you are, but as with the first time that I give a talk, 380 00:31:41,660 --> 00:31:48,000 you should probably not watch it. It's probably not good, but it was, uh, it was, it was fun to 381 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,820 finally give that talk. And, and it is always difficult. Like when you speak, uh, internationally, 382 00:31:52,820 --> 00:31:59,240 like, especially, uh, in, in, uh, you know, a country that maybe doesn't have a lot, a lot of 383 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:04,020 English speakers, although Singapore definitely does. It's hard to like gauge the reaction to stuff, 384 00:32:04,020 --> 00:32:10,340 but people seem to like them. And so it was fun to, uh, go over those, those, uh, those two things. 385 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:17,200 And, uh, also, you know, speaking of traveling, like I read this book recently and I know there's, 386 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,160 there's a, there's a good subset of people who travel a lot. There's this guy, I never know how 387 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:27,300 to say his name at Alan DeBotton. I always want to say DeBott, DeBottom, which I think is incorrect. 388 00:32:28,300 --> 00:32:34,480 He has a good book about traveling that I read last week while I was traveling. And, uh, it's, it's, 389 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:39,020 I think it's also, if you're like a business travel who, uh, travels a lot, it's good to read 390 00:32:39,020 --> 00:32:44,760 because, you know, when you do a lot of business travel, you can sort of get it worn down and, uh, 391 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:50,040 even start forgetting where you are and it just starts to become monotonous, but just, uh, even a 392 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:55,720 read of that book, it'll give you a fun, some tools to have more fun, uh, out, out and about and to 393 00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:01,480 take advantage of traveling so much. Like he, uh, he kind of, he has several chapters where he goes 394 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:07,340 through, uh, he talks about like a Ruskin, if you're up on your Victorian criticism. Uh, and he 395 00:33:07,340 --> 00:33:14,260 also has, uh, he talks about Van Gogh a lot, but it'll find like some famous character, uh, I guess 396 00:33:14,260 --> 00:33:18,640 a real life person and talk about how they're traveling, like gives you a toolbox of things to 397 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:23,160 do when you're traveling to enjoy yourself more. So it's a fun little manual. It's not going to tell 398 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:29,340 you how to modernize your .NET application, but it'll at least, uh, enliven your brain a little 399 00:33:29,340 --> 00:33:33,900 bit. And then, uh, I think, I think the other, the other thing that I noticed is, uh, Instapaper 400 00:33:33,900 --> 00:33:42,280 does not work in the EU because you know, of, of GDPR or whatever. So, uh, make sure to queue 401 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,540 all your stuff up beforehand because you won't be able to do it over there. It's just tragic. 402 00:33:47,740 --> 00:33:52,080 Interesting. Yeah. I, you know, I think, I think when you travel, I mean, you're, you're 403 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:57,760 traveling a lot, right? Like how are you, uh, have you, have you, do you do like I do? We're 404 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,060 like this morning, it's been like 20 minutes and you realize that yet again, you've been 405 00:34:01,060 --> 00:34:05,360 spending too much time on the wire cutter, trying to optimize your travel gear and remind yourself 406 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:10,100 that this always goes nowhere. You don't need to buy a new bag. 407 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:15,320 Yeah. No, I know. How are you packing light on, uh, these recent trips of yours? Are you 408 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,360 a heavy packer? Do you check luggage or do you go like carry on only? 409 00:34:18,660 --> 00:34:25,260 Well, I don't check luggage. Well, that's, that's, sometimes I check luggage on the way 410 00:34:25,260 --> 00:34:30,060 back just so that I don't have to deal with it. But, uh, yeah, I, you know, I go back and 411 00:34:30,060 --> 00:34:38,300 forth. I've traveled, like traveled, done business travel for like, uh, 12 years now. And, uh, 412 00:34:38,300 --> 00:34:42,120 you know, at first when you're doing business travel, you're like, you do a lot of research 413 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,540 and you're like, I'm going to buy the one backpack. I'm going to get the, uh, whatever the Tortuga 414 00:34:45,540 --> 00:34:50,460 backpack and I can just put all my stuff in there. And I'm like backpack person. And that, that's 415 00:34:50,460 --> 00:34:56,620 cool. That has its charm to it. But then you're kind of like, this backpack is heavy. Uh, and, 416 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,480 uh, it also doesn't last like five days and you got to like roll your clothes up and do all, 417 00:35:00,540 --> 00:35:04,380 you got to be like a, like a seal of business travel. It's a little too much, you know, there's 418 00:35:04,380 --> 00:35:10,440 no, what was the name of the guy in James Bond queue who had all the exploding pins. Like 419 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:15,140 you got to try to be that guy. And then, and then, and then as, as I'm, I'm currently in 420 00:35:15,140 --> 00:35:21,520 this part of the cycle, you know, you vacillate between these two things where I have my, uh, 421 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:26,980 giant, I don't know, however many liter backpack that I've had for a while. But then I also just 422 00:35:26,980 --> 00:35:31,960 have like, uh, just, you know, some carry on bag and it's so much nicer to have a carry 423 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:36,400 on bag. You just like put your clothes in there and you can throw a bunch of crap in 424 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:40,280 there. And, uh, and then if you buy stuff or you acquire things, you just put it there. 425 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,860 It's just nicer to have like a little rolling bag and, uh, then you don't really carry all 426 00:35:44,860 --> 00:35:46,080 your weight on your, your back. 427 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,220 That's true. Did you have a chance to use my air vent strategy at all on any of the flights? 428 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:57,840 You're, uh, Oh no. You know, I, I'd forgotten about that, but yeah, I haven't, I haven't really 429 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:05,520 had any, uh, I haven't had need to use that. Let me think. Maybe I will. When I go to, uh, 430 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:10,420 I'm going to Amsterdam and Germany next week. Maybe, maybe I'll have use for that then. Cause 431 00:36:10,420 --> 00:36:15,580 I'm having to travel and it's, it's big. We'll see how this goes. I'm having travel on some non 432 00:36:15,580 --> 00:36:21,900 one world carriers might have some undesirable seat. Maybe just a person. 433 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:26,800 So maybe I'll have to think back to that. Yeah. Can't wait. Yeah. Yeah. But you know, 434 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:35,800 business travel exciting. It is. And, and, uh, you know, I was also thinking like, like on this 435 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,900 topic, here's, here's a few little tips I would give people. Again, it's not going to teach you 436 00:36:39,900 --> 00:36:43,940 how to modernize your applications, but I've noticed, especially traveling a lot recently, 437 00:36:43,940 --> 00:36:50,880 there's a few things. One, uh, uh, I wouldn't limit it to any nationality, but people complain a lot 438 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:55,380 when they travel, which is just, you know, you're sort of wasting your time. You shouldn't, 439 00:36:55,420 --> 00:36:58,940 you shouldn't spend too much time complaining, especially when there's like long lines. 440 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,720 Cause it's just like, there's nothing to be done about it. You're just going to have to deal with 441 00:37:03,720 --> 00:37:08,180 long lines. So it's good to just relax and enjoy yourself. Otherwise you're just kind of, uh, 442 00:37:08,180 --> 00:37:12,960 nuking your own opportunities. And then, and then here's another, another tip that I like to do when 443 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:18,960 I'm traveling. It sounds really boring, but, uh, I've had some other people experiment with it, 444 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,040 which is like, if you get a chance, you should go to the local grocery stores. 445 00:37:22,500 --> 00:37:25,820 And, and again, this sounds a little crazy, but a grocery store is a good way to like one, 446 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:31,300 get some food and other things. So that's nice. If you've got a different type of eating, 447 00:37:31,300 --> 00:37:35,460 you can have at a grocery store. It's also, if you're like me and you sometimes don't want to 448 00:37:35,460 --> 00:37:39,560 talk with people like waitstaff or wait around, I just go to the grocery store and you don't have 449 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:43,540 to talk with people. You can get some, uh, some food. And in Europe, they always have a 450 00:37:43,540 --> 00:37:49,300 wonderful selection of cured ham that we don't have here in the U S so if you like ham, you can eat 451 00:37:49,300 --> 00:37:53,920 that, but it's also good. You can do a sort of like a grocery store tourism. Like it's fun to see 452 00:37:53,920 --> 00:38:00,200 the differences of, uh, things that people have at stores and kind of reverse engineer in your head, 453 00:38:00,260 --> 00:38:05,040 what that means. And, and, uh, you can kind of get a sense of other stuff going on by how people run 454 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:09,040 their grocery stores. So, so there, there, there's that something to do. And then, and then contrary 455 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:15,240 to, uh, not wanting to talk to people, uh, I've been experimenting a lot with like, maybe what you 456 00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:19,780 should do when you're traveling abroad is just assume that everything will be okay. And just talk 457 00:38:19,780 --> 00:38:25,520 to people and just like charge ahead into things. Right. So like it may be a little awkward and weird 458 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:32,560 to take like cabs or walk around or do whatever thing, you know, remove yourself from the safety of 459 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:38,660 your ensconced hotel and car and airport and things like that. But so far it pays off. You should just 460 00:38:38,660 --> 00:38:43,800 go out and explore and adventure things. And if people don't speak your language, they're generally 461 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:48,140 pretty good at hand signals and, uh, usually they'll want to help you out. And then, and then the only 462 00:38:48,140 --> 00:38:52,720 other thing I've realized is that, uh, you should always have some pocket change because apparently 463 00:38:52,720 --> 00:38:59,580 the U S is the only place where you can use a restroom for free along with, uh, that's probably highly 464 00:38:59,580 --> 00:39:04,360 correlated to the fact that we have endless free drink refills. I think if you have a culture that 465 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:09,680 has free drink refills, you need free bathrooms, but, uh, I don't think people consume very many 466 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:15,080 liquids as much as we do, I should say in, in the rest of the world. So bring some pocket change. 467 00:39:16,060 --> 00:39:20,100 These are all, that's a, I think, I think that's it. Yeah, that's a good summary. We'll have, 468 00:39:20,180 --> 00:39:26,800 maybe we'll have some ongoing travel check-in things, but, uh, I, I think, I think we have some 469 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,520 good catching up. I think, I think we're scheduled for an episode next week, a week after that. Well, 470 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:34,760 maybe not next week since I'm traveling, I guess we're still in the same trap, but we'll, uh, we'll 471 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:40,320 be back sometime soon. And, uh, you have any last minute things you want to wangle into here? 472 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:45,320 No, we've got some good guests coming up and I've got some few folks, but lined up, but if you all 473 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:49,820 have ideas of folks, you'd like to hear us, uh, get tortured by the two of us on an interview, 474 00:39:49,820 --> 00:39:53,820 please, please send recommendations to either of us. We love making sure we're talking. 475 00:39:54,020 --> 00:39:56,420 We can, we can add it to the self-torturing that we do. 476 00:39:57,180 --> 00:40:01,640 That's right. So yeah. Who, who do you want to see victims of this podcast? Please let us know. 477 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:10,000 And, and on that note, I'm always, uh, checking out what's on our, uh, our sister, brother, 478 00:40:10,100 --> 00:40:14,660 our sibling podcast, Pivotal Insights. And they, they've been having a tremendous amount of, 479 00:40:14,660 --> 00:40:18,500 uh, of, uh, guests on there, but I would call sort of like customer interviews, 480 00:40:18,500 --> 00:40:23,880 people who are in organizations actually doing things. And there, there's a great amount of 481 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,840 interviews they have there and every now and then they have a Pivotal person talking as well, 482 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,400 but, uh, it's definitely worth checking out Pivotal Insights. They have all sorts of, uh, 483 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:35,340 interesting stuff over there. I'm not sure how many steering travel insights that they have. 484 00:40:35,980 --> 00:40:40,300 Yeah. I don't know, but they're, they're kicking our tail on regularity work there. So as always, 485 00:40:40,540 --> 00:40:46,980 that's right. I don't know if we'll ever be able to catch up. We'll just be the, uh, we'll be, 486 00:40:46,980 --> 00:40:54,940 we'll be like the late show after the, uh, the night show, just there for people who are straggling 487 00:40:54,940 --> 00:40:58,940 around, just trying to get around. Well, as always, this has been Pivotal Conversations. 488 00:40:59,260 --> 00:41:04,400 If you want to find all of the, uh, fine old episodes or, or, or this one as well. Although 489 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:09,660 if you're listening, you've already found it, but you can go to soundcloud.com slash pivotal 490 00:41:09,660 --> 00:41:14,420 conversations. And there's the entire, uh, back catalog of episodes. You can go through there. 491 00:41:14,500 --> 00:41:18,540 There's lots of interviews we've had with people, customers, Richard and I just entertaining 492 00:41:18,540 --> 00:41:23,820 ourselves and hopefully you talking there. And about every Thursday, we post a full show notes, 493 00:41:23,820 --> 00:41:28,400 which we'll have a fair amount of links this week over at pivotal.io slash podcast. 494 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,840 And with that, we'll see everyone next time. Bye-bye.