1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,260 Well, I was just saying I was late to this podcast because I had to recollect some camping materials that I had lent out. 2 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:08,640 We're going camping this weekend. 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:15,220 I haven't looked at the weather, but I think it's going to be that fair high 60s, 70s or something. 4 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:16,180 Hopefully no rain. 5 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:19,400 But so here's my question for both of you. 6 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:24,240 What is the number one thing that you would recommend taking camping? 7 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:27,560 And the number one thing you would say you definitely don't need that. 8 00:00:27,740 --> 00:00:28,840 Just leave that at home. 9 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:30,580 How about you go first, guest? 10 00:00:33,060 --> 00:00:37,320 The thing that you definitely need would probably be some toilet paper, right? 11 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:39,240 You're out there in the woods, need some toilet paper. 12 00:00:39,480 --> 00:00:41,820 That is wise and pragmatic right there. 13 00:00:41,900 --> 00:00:42,120 Yeah. 14 00:00:42,780 --> 00:00:43,020 Yeah. 15 00:00:44,340 --> 00:00:49,020 The thing you don't need, in my opinion, would be a sleeping pad. 16 00:00:49,420 --> 00:00:50,560 You can just go without the sleeping pad. 17 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,360 You just take your sleeping bag, leave the sleeping pad at home. 18 00:00:53,420 --> 00:00:53,780 It's bulky. 19 00:00:53,980 --> 00:00:54,320 It's heavy. 20 00:00:54,620 --> 00:00:55,240 Sometimes it's heavy. 21 00:00:55,580 --> 00:00:55,740 Yeah. 22 00:00:55,820 --> 00:00:57,280 But yeah, leave it at home. 23 00:00:57,340 --> 00:00:57,760 You don't need it. 24 00:00:58,040 --> 00:00:58,220 Wow. 25 00:00:58,300 --> 00:01:01,800 You know, I hadn't thought about that, but I think that's spot on because I've slept on 26 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:03,900 a sleeping pad many times and you know what? 27 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:04,660 It's not comfortable. 28 00:01:05,300 --> 00:01:09,300 So you might as well just like sleep on the ground and then you don't have to worry about 29 00:01:09,300 --> 00:01:09,600 that. 30 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:10,360 Yeah. 31 00:01:10,900 --> 00:01:11,540 That's smart. 32 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:17,820 We have the, nowadays we have two kids and we have the cots. 33 00:01:18,140 --> 00:01:19,080 We have the car camping. 34 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:24,580 We haven't done rustic camping in a long time, but the cots, man, that is the technology that's 35 00:01:24,580 --> 00:01:25,680 really nice for camping. 36 00:01:26,020 --> 00:01:26,780 I enjoy that. 37 00:01:27,420 --> 00:01:28,380 But yeah, no pad. 38 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:28,940 I like that. 39 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:29,240 All right. 40 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:30,120 How about yourself, Richard? 41 00:01:30,980 --> 00:01:31,140 Yeah. 42 00:01:31,140 --> 00:01:32,420 I was going to say money for a hotel. 43 00:01:32,960 --> 00:01:33,160 Hey. 44 00:01:33,940 --> 00:01:34,960 That's how I camp. 45 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:37,960 Well, you don't bring his kids. 46 00:01:38,260 --> 00:01:40,440 So this is all just coming from a dark place. 47 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:44,800 No, I think I'd have to bring something with some sort of GPS tracking because I have zero 48 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:45,420 sense of George. 49 00:01:46,140 --> 00:01:46,500 Yeah. 50 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:47,000 Yeah. 51 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:51,220 My brother seems to camp every other weekend in Arizona and I think he likes to get lost, 52 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:53,200 but I would get lost and be dead shortly. 53 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:53,760 That's right. 54 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:54,620 So probably GPS related. 55 00:01:54,780 --> 00:01:59,900 Either bring GPS or a small pen knife so you can free yourself from boulders should that 56 00:01:59,900 --> 00:02:00,220 happen. 57 00:02:01,420 --> 00:02:01,860 There you go. 58 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:06,180 And what would you, aside from the kids apparently, what would you not take? 59 00:02:07,260 --> 00:02:11,520 I mean, ideally you don't bring the phone, camera, whatever, so you actually enjoy the 60 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:12,380 scenario you're in. 61 00:02:12,380 --> 00:02:15,760 I know it's harder nowadays, but I don't know. 62 00:02:15,860 --> 00:02:18,560 There's something about actually putting your head up and looking around where you're going 63 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:18,980 nowadays. 64 00:02:19,340 --> 00:02:19,740 Yeah. 65 00:02:19,980 --> 00:02:20,220 Yeah. 66 00:02:20,300 --> 00:02:21,220 That is a tough one. 67 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:26,420 As the mobile device becomes multi-purpose, what with the GPS and the camera. 68 00:02:27,380 --> 00:02:28,180 What are you going to do? 69 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,400 My wife still likes the traditional digital camera. 70 00:02:31,820 --> 00:02:36,560 So we always have one of those, which is, it actually takes really good pictures, but it 71 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:38,880 always feels a little strange to use that. 72 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:41,120 But I guess we'll take one of those. 73 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:43,560 Well, why don't you introduce yourself briefly, guest? 74 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:45,200 Sure. 75 00:02:45,460 --> 00:02:46,800 My name is Marisa Dale. 76 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,880 I'm a product design manager in the Washington, D.C. office. 77 00:02:50,140 --> 00:02:52,360 I've been there for just over two years. 78 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:53,380 I just had my two-year anniversary. 79 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:54,460 Oh, two years. 80 00:02:54,700 --> 00:02:56,960 As the joke goes around here, you're a veteran then. 81 00:02:59,500 --> 00:03:00,860 Yes, maybe that's so. 82 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:01,700 That's right. 83 00:03:02,180 --> 00:03:08,860 Well, we'll come back to, you had a medium post called the Technologist Hippocratic Oath, 84 00:03:08,860 --> 00:03:11,780 which I thought would be fun to talk about in the overall context of it. 85 00:03:12,140 --> 00:03:15,660 But first, as always, we'll go over some relevant news items. 86 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:17,460 What do you want to start with, Richard? 87 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:19,940 Yeah, let's see. 88 00:03:20,060 --> 00:03:23,660 So Amazon had a little get-together last week, sort of a little show. 89 00:03:23,860 --> 00:03:27,560 And so they announced a bunch of stuff, as you are wont to do at these sort of events. 90 00:03:27,640 --> 00:03:29,360 So a lot of security-related stuff. 91 00:03:29,420 --> 00:03:34,160 I threw some links here in the show notes, a new Secrets Manager, which actually has rotation 92 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,900 of secrets, which sounds oddly familiar to what we do with Bosch and Cloud Foundry. 93 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:39,800 So clearly, rotation is catching on. 94 00:03:40,460 --> 00:03:44,580 There's also Firewall Manager, Certificate Manager, just some good things as you're trying 95 00:03:44,580 --> 00:03:48,340 to actually build some of the machinery around your apps and your platform from a security 96 00:03:48,340 --> 00:03:48,880 perspective. 97 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:50,700 So, hey, people seem to care about that. 98 00:03:51,100 --> 00:03:51,300 Mm-hmm. 99 00:03:51,420 --> 00:03:56,320 Yeah, we had a little discussion of that on my other podcast, Software Defined Talk, where 100 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:02,240 I learned a fun work hack, where if you don't know something, you should just allow yourself 101 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,180 to look unknowing in public. 102 00:04:04,540 --> 00:04:07,600 And I had to be like, so how does secrets management actually work? 103 00:04:07,660 --> 00:04:10,520 By this time in my career, I should probably know that, but I have no idea. 104 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:17,400 So I took some goofy points on the board so that I could understand it, which I think 105 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:18,680 is the enlightened thing to do. 106 00:04:18,940 --> 00:04:22,300 But yeah, that's always plenty of fun security stuff. 107 00:04:22,300 --> 00:04:27,980 There was a snarky register headline about the Werner guy saying, you know, this is not 108 00:04:27,980 --> 00:04:30,620 a sales event, and then going on to give you all the sales numbers. 109 00:04:30,900 --> 00:04:32,380 But what are you going to do? 110 00:04:32,740 --> 00:04:33,700 Marketing, am I right? 111 00:04:33,780 --> 00:04:34,760 What's up with those people? 112 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:36,140 I don't know. 113 00:04:38,940 --> 00:04:46,620 And then also, I see that Riff had a milestone in the literal sense of the word, I guess. 114 00:04:46,700 --> 00:04:49,540 Or not literal, but it's, you know, not figurative. 115 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,720 I've lost track of my figurative literal stack there. 116 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,700 Anyways, they had a release coming out. 117 00:04:55,760 --> 00:05:01,460 And I was noticing that because I was in, as mentioned last week, I was up at the spring 118 00:05:01,460 --> 00:05:03,700 tour in Dallas, which was fun. 119 00:05:03,820 --> 00:05:05,320 It was an enjoyable event. 120 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:12,620 And I think the number one thing that people asked about that we didn't have someone in 121 00:05:12,620 --> 00:05:17,140 the room who could answer it in a detailed way was people really wanted to know about 122 00:05:17,140 --> 00:05:17,400 Riff. 123 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:18,880 They're crazy for the serverless. 124 00:05:19,500 --> 00:05:21,780 And so it's good to see that's proceeding there. 125 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,420 We'll have to figure out maybe in the spring tour if we can incorporate some more of that 126 00:05:25,420 --> 00:05:28,360 in, because that's clearly a hot topic. 127 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:29,560 Yeah. 128 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,780 And that team has absolutely zero sense of marketing because they keep shipping on Friday 129 00:05:32,780 --> 00:05:34,140 nights at 6 p.m. Pacific. 130 00:05:34,500 --> 00:05:34,960 That's right. 131 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:36,620 But I love it, you know. 132 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:37,980 They want a clear news day. 133 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:38,940 Yeah. 134 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:39,840 You know, screw it. 135 00:05:39,860 --> 00:05:41,500 We're going to ship when we want to ship, damn it. 136 00:05:41,620 --> 00:05:44,720 So they ship an update Friday night. 137 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:50,240 Riff is the open source function of the service platform, runs on Kubernetes, Pivotal's pioneering 138 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:51,080 that at the moment. 139 00:05:51,260 --> 00:05:52,480 So it's just making good progress. 140 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:54,980 It's really gotten to be a nice installation experience. 141 00:05:55,220 --> 00:05:59,540 It's gotten to be a nice point if you're a function developer, like just write your code, 142 00:06:00,340 --> 00:06:01,240 run a Riff command. 143 00:06:01,340 --> 00:06:04,400 It gets deployed to the cluster, run this on-prem, run this off-prem. 144 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:05,640 It's still obviously early days. 145 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,280 It's 0.06. 146 00:06:08,900 --> 00:06:12,720 So, you know, probably don't put this in prod at the moment, but love the momentum. 147 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:13,980 Team's doing great work. 148 00:06:14,260 --> 00:06:16,040 As you say, everybody loves the serverless. 149 00:06:16,460 --> 00:06:16,820 That's right. 150 00:06:17,180 --> 00:06:17,420 Yeah. 151 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:23,660 I was thinking recently, there's this bifurcation of like, we should call it function as a service 152 00:06:23,660 --> 00:06:26,380 versus serverless and how serverless is ridiculous. 153 00:06:26,620 --> 00:06:27,580 But I don't know. 154 00:06:27,620 --> 00:06:29,380 I feel like serverless is a cooler name. 155 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:31,820 We should, we should, we should, we should stick with that. 156 00:06:32,220 --> 00:06:33,680 But we'll probably use Fazz. 157 00:06:34,220 --> 00:06:37,820 It's just, it's a, I don't know, funner brand name for it. 158 00:06:38,500 --> 00:06:39,780 We'll see if that position changes. 159 00:06:39,780 --> 00:06:41,600 Like, no sequel. 160 00:06:41,840 --> 00:06:42,500 Oh, yeah. 161 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:43,320 That's right. 162 00:06:43,420 --> 00:06:45,360 Can we just, we never do it on the positive side. 163 00:06:45,420 --> 00:06:47,580 We're always saying what something is not, which is always fun. 164 00:06:47,700 --> 00:06:49,260 Man, you might turn me around with that. 165 00:06:49,340 --> 00:06:51,680 Because, you know, I'm trying to be a better person as I age. 166 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,540 So maybe I should, should be, be less negative. 167 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:56,480 I don't have to shut down my column at the register. 168 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,700 And is there, is there a positive place to write tech news? 169 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:01,320 I'm not sure that's possible. 170 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:03,920 I don't know what the opposite of the register is. 171 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:05,200 Good housekeeping. 172 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:07,580 Like, I don't know what would possibly be more uplifting. 173 00:07:08,060 --> 00:07:09,340 Good, good glass housekeeping. 174 00:07:09,860 --> 00:07:10,980 We need to start that up. 175 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,820 And then also next week is the, the Cloud Foundry Summit. 176 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:16,760 You know, we had, was it last week? 177 00:07:16,820 --> 00:07:17,940 We had, we had Abion. 178 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:19,640 No, last week we talked about our FAQ stuff. 179 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:23,560 But a couple weeks ago, we had Abion to talk about what was going on in the CF Summit. 180 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,800 And our, our session highlights, there's also the Green Plum Summit coming up. 181 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:33,000 And as, as Richard summarized it, basically you should be attending, be attending a summit somewhere next week. 182 00:07:33,140 --> 00:07:35,120 So there's plenty of summits going on. 183 00:07:35,580 --> 00:07:39,300 And you remember, bring toilet paper if you're going to, you know, go to a summit. 184 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:44,960 And you don't need a, you don't need the, the bed rest, money for a hotel room. 185 00:07:45,260 --> 00:07:48,420 And, you know, what did you want to leave behind, Richard? 186 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:49,100 Your iPhone. 187 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:51,020 Bring a GPS and leave behind your iPhone. 188 00:07:51,140 --> 00:07:53,160 You should have, I mean, the signage is good at these things. 189 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:54,800 So you probably do not GPS tracking. 190 00:07:55,020 --> 00:07:55,440 That's right. 191 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:56,540 So, so we'll be fine. 192 00:07:56,540 --> 00:07:59,520 And then, and then what, what's the availability zones in Azure? 193 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:02,040 Yeah, I threw that one in there. 194 00:08:02,100 --> 00:08:03,980 So Azure added availability zones. 195 00:08:04,100 --> 00:08:06,600 If you're an Amazon customer, you'd say they don't already have it. 196 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,100 Because Amazon's had that for, gosh, I think 10 years. 197 00:08:09,140 --> 00:08:13,480 And this idea of having multiple distinct physical buildings within a region. 198 00:08:13,700 --> 00:08:20,200 So if this building collapses or whatever, runs out of power, your workloads might be striped across availability zones. 199 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:22,360 So that's been a feature in Amazon for a while. 200 00:08:22,540 --> 00:08:23,700 A lot of people have copied that. 201 00:08:23,700 --> 00:08:25,780 Azure just made that generally available. 202 00:08:26,340 --> 00:08:30,260 And what's interesting here, Coté, you and I would have to do the math if we were so inclined. 203 00:08:30,260 --> 00:08:34,260 But every cloud provider kind of counts their geographic reach a little differently. 204 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:36,540 You know, Azure talks about their regions. 205 00:08:36,540 --> 00:08:37,720 And they have a ton of regions. 206 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:39,500 But some of those regions only have one building. 207 00:08:39,680 --> 00:08:41,640 And then Amazon talks about AZs. 208 00:08:41,680 --> 00:08:43,580 And Google talks about whatever Google talks about. 209 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:48,060 There's no normalization necessarily of who's actually in the most places. 210 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,660 So if everyone does availability zones, maybe that starts to normalize it. 211 00:08:51,780 --> 00:08:56,300 But up until now, everyone likes to brag that I'm twice as big as this one or that one. 212 00:08:56,300 --> 00:08:59,800 But you're not factoring in square footage or actual geographic locations. 213 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:01,480 It's just cool vanity metrics. 214 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:03,860 So maybe we're actually going to make it consistent now. 215 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:19,020 Yeah, that always reminds me of like in the early 2000s when all the hardware vendors would like try to like on the back of the magazine, they would talk about how many like MIPS they had or processing cycles. 216 00:09:19,020 --> 00:09:23,420 And you're comparing like, you know, Spark chips to Intel chips to like mainframe things. 217 00:09:23,560 --> 00:09:26,840 And it sort of like was hard to make sense of that. 218 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:28,480 And they could have all those benchmarks. 219 00:09:29,340 --> 00:09:30,960 Man, those benchmarks are crazy. 220 00:09:31,540 --> 00:09:33,440 But yeah, someone needs to normalize that. 221 00:09:33,500 --> 00:09:35,840 You know, like I guess it's mostly for pricing. 222 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:44,420 But Owen Rogers over at 451, I think he does a pretty good job of finding the commonality between all these cloud things. 223 00:09:44,420 --> 00:09:47,920 And he's got his pricing baskets and stuff like that. 224 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:49,640 It's always fun to see what he comes out with. 225 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:52,740 Well, also just as a reminder. 226 00:09:53,140 --> 00:09:58,300 So we not only had a SpringOne tour last week, but we've got all sorts of them coming up throughout the year. 227 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:02,840 I think the next one is on May 14th to 15th in Denver. 228 00:10:03,140 --> 00:10:08,120 Then later on in May, there'll be one in St. Louis and then London and Los Angeles and New York. 229 00:10:08,620 --> 00:10:12,480 All the great places over in Asia, several places as well. 230 00:10:13,100 --> 00:10:16,640 And I think they're either relatively cheap. 231 00:10:16,820 --> 00:10:21,300 Or if you can find yourself a pivotal sales rep, I bet you can get a very deep discount. 232 00:10:22,340 --> 00:10:23,160 But you can go to those. 233 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:37,400 And it's basically two days of, I would say, mostly highly technical talks from people about using spring and doing all the way from architecture to actual coding to the sort of lifecycle management that you have. 234 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:44,940 And then you can also do, there's like an open spaces thing where you can, the audience gets to propose various topics they want to talk about. 235 00:10:44,940 --> 00:10:46,960 It's a nice affair. 236 00:10:47,860 --> 00:10:51,020 And someone on our team, Tasha, does all the catering. 237 00:10:51,140 --> 00:10:51,880 Excellent food. 238 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:56,960 So it's not just, as they say, rubber chickens and, you know, Jason's Deli. 239 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:58,700 Nothing wrong with Jason's Deli. 240 00:10:58,820 --> 00:11:00,300 But, you know, sometimes you want to upgrade. 241 00:11:00,820 --> 00:11:03,500 Get your fancy sandwiches and other meals. 242 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:09,860 So I think if you go to springtour.io, I should really, it's probably SpringOne tour. 243 00:11:10,020 --> 00:11:11,000 I should know these things. 244 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:12,140 SpringOne tour. 245 00:11:12,300 --> 00:11:12,800 There you go. 246 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:13,600 .io. 247 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,320 You can check that out and sign up for them. 248 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:25,380 You know, before we get to the topic here, that reminds me, someone actually asked what the I.O. in Pivotal.io was for. 249 00:11:25,580 --> 00:11:30,500 Not like literally what it's for, for like Indian Ocean or something, but just what the thinking behind it was. 250 00:11:30,500 --> 00:11:40,340 And it occurred to me that it's been so long since us tech people have used .io that I don't really think about it, like exactly what it is. 251 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:42,580 I don't remember who started that. 252 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:51,220 Yeah, yeah, I feel like an early explanation I read was that like open source projects used to do it. 253 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:57,420 And it was sort of like, one, it was cool because it was two letters, but it was also like input output or something like that. 254 00:11:58,300 --> 00:11:59,200 So I don't know. 255 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:00,640 That's what's always stuck in my head. 256 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:07,560 And then also, I forgot, we have, what is it, one more week for the actual SpringOne platform CFP? 257 00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:09,160 That's right. 258 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:10,160 Yeah, it's time. 259 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:19,680 So after this podcast, because you're listening intently, block off the next hour, write an amazing abstract, whether these are case studies, tech talks, you know, explorations of an architecture. 260 00:12:20,420 --> 00:12:23,660 You know, and I think the fun part this year is it's not just, well, I don't have a spring talk. 261 00:12:24,300 --> 00:12:34,000 I'd love to hear talks, you know, Coté and I are part of the review teams, but I'd love to see talks on just straight up serverless or Kubernetes or .NET or microservices. 262 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:39,620 Of course, spring stuff's something we love to see, but we've actually broadened the agenda a bit. 263 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,620 So you have a week, come up with a great talk, get it into the CFP. 264 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:43,700 We love case studies. 265 00:12:44,260 --> 00:12:46,780 We'd love to hear how you're using tech, the good, bad, and the ugly. 266 00:12:46,940 --> 00:12:49,620 We don't just love positive, everything's awesome talks. 267 00:12:50,300 --> 00:12:52,040 I think each year, I mean, Coté, you see these too. 268 00:12:52,140 --> 00:12:53,920 We see the, hey, this didn't work right. 269 00:12:54,060 --> 00:12:56,300 And not even product-wise, but like team-wise. 270 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:58,340 Or, hey, we tried this and it didn't work. 271 00:12:58,400 --> 00:12:59,320 We had to learn from it. 272 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,720 So if you have those, please get those in. 273 00:13:01,780 --> 00:13:04,520 It's a fantastic show, and we hope to see you speaking there. 274 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:05,360 Yeah, absolutely. 275 00:13:05,740 --> 00:13:14,620 Yeah, you know, I pretty much only like the talks that are the meatware kind of talks of the people and the process and all that stuff. 276 00:13:14,700 --> 00:13:19,340 I mean, there's plenty of other good technical ones, but I feel like those take care of themselves to some extent. 277 00:13:19,340 --> 00:13:28,220 So if you have some story of how you've been struggling or succeeding or hopefully both with those, I think it's, I don't know. 278 00:13:28,340 --> 00:13:37,260 I think, I haven't done the bubble chart, but I think it's probably one of the larger, better conferences that goes over how things are working and not. 279 00:13:37,460 --> 00:13:39,960 Advice for your transformational journeys. 280 00:13:40,560 --> 00:13:42,960 We should suggest that as the tagline. 281 00:13:43,300 --> 00:13:45,540 Can we fit that all on a .io site? 282 00:13:46,180 --> 00:13:47,960 You can do that and bring your meatware. 283 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:49,940 I think we'd have amazing attendance this year. 284 00:13:50,220 --> 00:13:50,900 That's right, yeah. 285 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:55,960 But it'll be a good conference, and we'll see if there's some new little 8-bit art that they do for various people. 286 00:13:56,560 --> 00:14:00,220 So all of that wrapped up. 287 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:08,940 Why don't you give us a, you know, as long as you want, kind of a summary of the post that you wrote, your Hippocratic Oath. 288 00:14:09,140 --> 00:14:14,660 Like what, you know, first let's kind of go over what's in it. 289 00:14:14,660 --> 00:14:19,660 And then I'm really curious to hear about, like, how you came about wanting to write that. 290 00:14:20,700 --> 00:14:21,760 Sure, yeah. 291 00:14:22,460 --> 00:14:29,000 Do you want me to just read experts, little sections of this, or should I kind of just shoot from the hip and summarize? 292 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:29,760 Yeah, yeah. 293 00:14:29,820 --> 00:14:31,280 It's always better to shoot from the hip. 294 00:14:31,340 --> 00:14:32,760 We got a very large target. 295 00:14:32,980 --> 00:14:34,020 No precision needed. 296 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:36,520 All right. 297 00:14:37,420 --> 00:14:47,300 So I think the overall idea is to get back to the core of what we're trying to build and who we're really trying to build it for. 298 00:14:47,700 --> 00:14:56,160 And what those outputs of what we're building, what they affect, who they affect, and in the different facets of that. 299 00:14:56,980 --> 00:15:08,940 So making sure that we're not doing things for financial benefit or the lure of status, but making sure that we're mindful of the consequences of the decisions that we make on our products. 300 00:15:08,940 --> 00:15:15,420 And the impact that it has on a potential user outside when they begin using this thing. 301 00:15:16,420 --> 00:15:25,040 And I think that all too often, myself included, it can be really easy to forget sometimes, you know, the real humans. 302 00:15:25,180 --> 00:15:26,340 We call them users a lot of times. 303 00:15:26,420 --> 00:15:28,840 There's all these different names that we have. 304 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:38,960 But we tend to whittle this down into just thinking about it in terms of just an entity, somebody with no face, no name, really. 305 00:15:39,540 --> 00:15:47,020 And I think that making sure that we understand the impact of real humans with real lives, with the things that we build, is really, really important. 306 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,300 And I think that's just kind of what the oath was trying to get at. 307 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:56,800 And so, like, I forget, I could easily open it up and get the precise number. 308 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:01,340 But I think there's maybe, like, eight or ten different principles in there. 309 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:05,980 And, like, what are you trying to capture with that? 310 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:08,760 Like, what's kind of, like, the end goal that you're trying to get towards? 311 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:13,060 I mean, as you're saying, like, you want to keep people in mind. 312 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:18,480 And any type of, like, ethical thing has, like, some end goal in mind. 313 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:29,220 And, like, to you, like, if this software is following the oath and it's done in an ethical way, like, what's the result going to look like? 314 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:31,140 Like, what is it going to accomplish? 315 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:37,640 Yeah, I think maybe in order to answer that, I could back up a little bit and just talk about why I wrote it in the first place. 316 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:43,000 I think that the reason that I wanted to write this was mostly just personal to begin with. 317 00:16:43,100 --> 00:16:45,520 You know, in D.C., we have a lot of government clients. 318 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:46,780 It's mostly government now. 319 00:16:48,100 --> 00:16:57,020 And I've been working with them for the last two years on a lot of really complex systems that have a really big impact on a large number of people. 320 00:16:57,800 --> 00:16:59,880 And that's felt very consequential to me. 321 00:17:00,500 --> 00:17:10,040 On top of that, I have a young child who is, you know, I'm starting to watch his interaction with technology and how he's adapted that very readily. 322 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,560 And how, you know, hook cycles can really get him. 323 00:17:13,660 --> 00:17:17,900 He's just especially vulnerable to hooks. 324 00:17:19,740 --> 00:17:38,720 And I think all of that was just sort of culminating into wanting and realizing that we didn't have any oversight or any ethical frameworks as technologists to really think about what are the implications of what I'm using here? 325 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:43,220 These tools and these these tools and these these powers that I'm wielding as a designer, as an engineer. 326 00:17:44,580 --> 00:17:50,260 And I realized that I think that there had been a few other people who had talked about it. 327 00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:58,160 And I was also thinking, why is there not a coordinate or some sort of something similar to a Hippocratic oath, 328 00:17:58,300 --> 00:18:11,380 which medical doctors use once they graduate from medical school as sort of a fallback to, you know, am I making the right choice and questioning yourself in the moment of, you know, 329 00:18:11,380 --> 00:18:18,160 is this really what is is going to be helpful for my patient and not just helpful for me? 330 00:18:18,580 --> 00:18:23,340 And I was just thinking and realizing that we could use something like that. 331 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,220 That would be really helpful for myself initially. 332 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:38,400 And then I so I wrote that I used the Hippocratic oath, the medical version as a template and created basically thought by thought, line by line. 333 00:18:39,940 --> 00:18:42,740 Something somewhat of a coordinate for technologists. 334 00:18:44,300 --> 00:18:48,580 Yeah, you know, you know, it's it's, you know, going through them, right? 335 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:56,100 Like like it's it's you can kind of reverse engineer what you're saying that if you're working on these, well, in your case, government projects that have a big impact. 336 00:18:56,140 --> 00:19:02,000 And at some point, you're sort of like, holy crap, like this has a huge impact, right? 337 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,480 Like like it's so you start to try it a little more carefully. 338 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:22,100 And and then also, like, I'm curious, sort of like if I were to clump together the principles, there's there's a for something that's sort of saying what is the here are some principles for thinking about the impact that that your work has on people. 339 00:19:22,100 --> 00:19:25,440 Right. How it could negatively and positively affect their life. 340 00:19:25,660 --> 00:19:35,040 There's also like kind of a smattering of I don't know what I would call like inward facing things, like how how one should think about themselves, not necessarily like like the users they have. 341 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:46,600 Like, as as I guess I was in my subconscious, like sort of connecting to right, like there's not being ashamed that you don't know something and like getting help from other people to get input to it. 342 00:19:46,700 --> 00:19:56,660 And then also there's the part of, you know, you know, the one preceding that of like there's I should think about this being a craft that I have and instead of something else. 343 00:19:56,660 --> 00:20:04,920 And it's it's it's like what was your motivation like for putting sort of here's how you should think about yourself types of things? 344 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:06,700 How does that fit into the overall goal? 345 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:17,400 Yeah, I think what I was going for was really trying to get people to ask a couple of more things of themselves, you know, mainly why? 346 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:23,460 Like, I think, you know, as technologists, as designers and engineers and PMs, we need to ask why more. 347 00:20:23,460 --> 00:20:26,440 I think the question how gets asked a lot. 348 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:34,840 You know, I think, you know, how I how might we how fast can we make this? 349 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,200 You know, how how can we grab the most market share? 350 00:20:38,740 --> 00:20:40,980 How can we beat our competitors to markets? 351 00:20:41,060 --> 00:20:43,720 We ask how a lot, but we don't necessarily ask why. 352 00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:50,660 And I think that, you know, flipping those questions and asking why more is is is paramount. 353 00:20:50,660 --> 00:20:54,960 And I think that it drove some of those those points that you just pointed out. 354 00:20:55,420 --> 00:20:59,840 I also have been really realizing that we don't talk about saying no very often. 355 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:07,780 We in the the oath I talked about, you know, we are the gatekeepers, which has also been mentioned by Mike Montero. 356 00:21:08,420 --> 00:21:13,880 You know, we as individuals, we are part of this collective system that is building a piece of software. 357 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:20,540 We as individuals play a big part in that, even though it may feel small, we can act as gatekeepers. 358 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:22,600 We have the ability to say no. 359 00:21:22,860 --> 00:21:26,840 And that agency should be used more often if we feel like we need to. 360 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:34,640 But I feel like a lot of people don't individuals, technologists don't feel like they have the agency to be able to say no if they if they need to. 361 00:21:35,060 --> 00:21:38,140 And they should they should know that they they have that wherewithal. 362 00:21:38,220 --> 00:21:44,520 And the more that you use that agency, the better you are at at using it more often if you feel like you need to. 363 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:49,280 I think too often we we say, oh, that's going to be somebody else's problem. 364 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:50,660 That's not really my responsibility. 365 00:21:50,660 --> 00:21:51,900 I'm just here for a paycheck. 366 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:56,900 We we diffuse and we, you know, externalize the blame. 367 00:21:56,980 --> 00:21:58,200 We shift the blame a lot. 368 00:21:58,500 --> 00:21:59,700 But it is on us. 369 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:06,620 You know, we are an integral part of this thing being built and being put out in the world, no matter how small we feel like our role is. 370 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,540 And we need to take onus of that. 371 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:17,620 I feel like, you know, inspiring people to take more onus over the work that they do can have some really great outcomes. 372 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:20,140 Yes, I thought I'd follow up with that. 373 00:22:20,180 --> 00:22:24,400 I mean, some good points there, especially because you named a few of the people who make up a team. 374 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,660 I mean, there's no maybe one person in some of these balanced teams. 375 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,740 I mean, it could go up to a vice president or a founder who says this is kind of the product we make. 376 00:22:32,780 --> 00:22:47,600 And this is the point to a product owner who prioritizes a set of features that may encourage certain behavior or award people a certain way or anything that we might consider even ethically dubious to a developer who builds it, to an operator who runs it, to marketing who positions it. 377 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:55,940 So, I mean, as you look at the it can be easy for I would think for someone to stick their head in the sand and go, I was just either following orders or, hey, this kind of made sense for the code I was writing. 378 00:22:56,120 --> 00:23:09,260 I didn't zoom out to the general component of how I was maybe using data maliciously or just even kind of a sketchy way for targeting or how we were maybe even the app we were building itself is of some sort of dubious nature. 379 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:22,180 So how do you look at the whole team and start to figure out how do people either take on responsibility or not just say, hey, that wasn't my fault or, you know, in these bigger scenarios where you're not just a team of one, how do you approach the ethical quandary? 380 00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:28,340 Yeah, and I think that that's why I diverted that back in the oath to the individual, right? 381 00:23:28,380 --> 00:23:32,960 Each individual knows the part that they play in building the product. 382 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,840 So, again, that introspection is really important. 383 00:23:37,500 --> 00:23:52,580 You know, what is the developer who's being asked to take the settings and hide it in a potential, you know, social media platform, for example, has the ability, even though they're not the one that prioritizes the story or maybe even came up with that story to begin with, 384 00:23:53,100 --> 00:23:55,040 they are the one executing on it. 385 00:23:55,040 --> 00:24:01,860 So they have that wherewithal and that right to be able to, like, say, no, you know, like, let's push back on this. 386 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:03,320 Let's think about it a little bit more. 387 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:05,540 You know, privacy settings are really important. 388 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:06,900 That needs to be a higher level. 389 00:24:06,980 --> 00:24:08,580 And here's why I feel that way. 390 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:24,240 I also try to make sure that I try to leave it open as much as possible because I know, yeah, Pivotal has balanced team, PM, engineering, design, but there's so many more roles and responsibilities outside of that as well. 391 00:24:24,500 --> 00:24:27,840 And those are absolutely, in my mind, incorporated into this. 392 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:35,620 The technologist word in and of itself feels more open to me, and I liked it. 393 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:37,500 I liked that about that word. 394 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:38,260 Sure. 395 00:24:38,900 --> 00:24:42,460 Do you feel that sometimes these things get, again, we all love it. 396 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:42,860 It's funny. 397 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:47,900 Sometimes it, do you think there's an impact in the fact that we like small incremental changes versus Big Bang? 398 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:49,300 Which, I mean, sometimes these things do. 399 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:51,800 I mean, maybe it's cheating to say they sneak up on you. 400 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:57,140 But sometimes it can be a combination of things that become, I would think, the bigger ethical thing. 401 00:24:57,220 --> 00:24:59,920 Like, hey, let's refactor how we do our settings pages. 402 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:01,760 That's not by itself nefarious. 403 00:25:01,860 --> 00:25:05,500 It may have maybe stuck something somewhere else, but that by itself wasn't it. 404 00:25:05,500 --> 00:25:11,200 But as you finally then ship and you look back six months later and go, gosh, we made it really hard to opt out of ad targeting. 405 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:13,340 Do you ever think, or is that cheating? 406 00:25:13,500 --> 00:25:20,560 Do you know what you're doing and that's just a way to make that excuse to yourself, even though you're incrementally maybe moving towards something a little sketchy? 407 00:25:21,820 --> 00:25:23,020 Yeah, that's a really good question. 408 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,220 I think there's a couple of different ways to think about that. 409 00:25:26,220 --> 00:25:38,340 So, at least in Pivotal's model, during DNF, I personally feel like we could spend a little bit more time thinking about outcomes, especially long-term outcomes. 410 00:25:38,540 --> 00:25:44,440 You know, we push to MVP as fast as we can and then we roll off to the customer. 411 00:25:45,100 --> 00:25:48,340 And we don't really think about the longevity of the product that we're putting out in the world. 412 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:53,560 That could definitely be something that we collaborate on with our clients a little bit more. 413 00:25:53,740 --> 00:25:59,360 And that can be thought of as best as possible in DNF. 414 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:02,340 And there could be some frameworks that we use for that. 415 00:26:02,460 --> 00:26:06,280 You know, what is this product going to do in five years? 416 00:26:06,340 --> 00:26:08,520 What is it going to do, you know, three months after MVP? 417 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,660 What's it going to do in 10 years, 30 years, or upon its death? 418 00:26:12,460 --> 00:26:15,820 And those are really, you know, good questions to be asking in DNF. 419 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,560 Now, that being said, we don't necessarily know the outcomes of that. 420 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,000 We can't anticipate all outcomes, right? 421 00:26:22,140 --> 00:26:28,520 It's, we can do our best, you know, like how could this be used potentially in a very dubious way? 422 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:30,980 And we might be able to generate some ideas. 423 00:26:31,180 --> 00:26:33,360 You know, what are the positive impacts of this? 424 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,540 Well, we can counter that with what are the negative impacts? 425 00:26:35,660 --> 00:26:42,280 How might it be manipulated and used in the way that we don't want it to be used later on? 426 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:50,680 You know, such as like Facebook and Russian bots, you know, accounts that aren't actually valid, things like that. 427 00:26:52,180 --> 00:26:57,420 Not necessarily something that they could have thought about in the beginning or anticipated, obviously. 428 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:05,140 But so that comes to the second part of it in that like testing is really, really important in all of this. 429 00:27:05,140 --> 00:27:30,140 So even after, you know, we hit MVP and we're still, you know, pushing out features, it is so, so, so important to be still in touch with the user, seeing how the product is impacting them, seeing how it's being used and manipulated, accessing that data of knowing who's signing on and making new accounts and where those accounts are from, things like that. 430 00:27:30,140 --> 00:27:39,260 So that you can put some blockers in place at the point where you're detecting it earlier and being able to mitigate it right away. 431 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:44,540 Because ultimately, we're not going to be able to think about all the outcomes or all the different nefarious ways that something could be used. 432 00:27:46,060 --> 00:27:51,480 Yeah, that raises that pulls together several things I was curious to talk about. 433 00:27:51,620 --> 00:28:06,020 Like one, to phrase a little bit of what you're saying in my own words, like in the same way that we would continuously monitor whatever business goals loosely defined we have with the software, right? 434 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:13,280 Like are people buying more stuff or can we handle more case management if we're kind of like more of a government thing or whatever goals you have? 435 00:28:13,340 --> 00:28:15,660 Are we meeting the productivity targets we have? 436 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:23,020 There's probably also like this continual checking in of like how evil is the stuff becoming, if at all. 437 00:28:23,020 --> 00:28:32,260 And we should mindfully sort of look in and see what's actually happening and not just get stuck up on the only, the performance dashboard metrics. 438 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:41,020 And so like, I mean, I don't know, do you have like some examples of people monitoring for that kind of thing? 439 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:45,020 I don't really, other than the scathingly obvious, right? 440 00:28:45,100 --> 00:28:50,680 Like foreign powers interfering with stuff they shouldn't, like, you know, spying is an easy use case. 441 00:28:51,040 --> 00:29:00,360 But like what are some of the other ones that you need to monitor for that might be, I don't know, sort of like subtly not cool to be happening with your software? 442 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,080 Sure. Or maybe they're all obviously not cool. 443 00:29:04,100 --> 00:29:08,400 To put it another way, how would you like, how would you monitor for that and check in on it? 444 00:29:08,820 --> 00:29:09,380 Yeah, sure. 445 00:29:09,460 --> 00:29:13,700 Well, I mean, I think that inevitably you're going to be getting feedback from users. 446 00:29:13,700 --> 00:29:17,740 I think users will be your sort of canary in the mine, if you will. 447 00:29:17,740 --> 00:29:34,240 Well, you know, if there's some sort of AI that's starting to come up with misogynistic comments, for example, you know, your first indication of that, hopefully you'll have found that in testing yourself. 448 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:48,900 If for some reason it's starting to learn these things on its own and doing that over a longer period of time where you may not be as in touch with it, your users may be more using it on a regular basis than you are. 449 00:29:49,220 --> 00:29:50,860 And they identify it first. 450 00:29:51,240 --> 00:30:00,040 There's probably some, if you are in touch with your users, they're going to be giving you that feedback right away, submitting it through an app. 451 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:06,440 You know, if you're doing testing with them, it's going to come out in interviews, things like that. 452 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:22,340 So I think that it's like, again, it comes back to being in touch with the end user and always having that product like in front of them and seeing both like in the short term and the long term how a product is behaving. 453 00:30:22,340 --> 00:30:30,300 I think very often we put new features out in the world, we test them, we make sure, sure, short term looks good, like release it, let's go. 454 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,400 And then it's sort of just off on its own out in the world. 455 00:30:33,860 --> 00:30:42,360 Well, there's not so much longitudinal studies done about those feature sets over the span of months or even years, potentially. 456 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:50,280 And we could do a lot more of that to really understand, okay, what is this data that we're getting back from the long term on this feature set? 457 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,320 Is it being successful? Is it behaving in the way that we want it to behave? 458 00:30:55,180 --> 00:30:56,700 Yeah, that makes sense. 459 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:17,100 I mean, and it's another thing that comes up often just purely with a, I don't know, a more user centric or person centric and sort of agile approach to things, which is you should probably pay attention to your software beyond releasing it and like continually check in on how it's doing and how people are using it. 460 00:31:17,100 --> 00:31:27,500 And part of that is like looking at if it's not only like helping people accomplish what they want with the software, but doing it in a good way if it's behaving. 461 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:39,500 And I always think analogously that it's sort of like, you know, like hopefully as my kids get older and whenever they turn 18, it won't just be sort of like a project and then I'm out. 462 00:31:39,700 --> 00:31:41,760 Like I'm not paying attention to them anymore. 463 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,860 And, you know, bi-directionally we'll sort of help each other. 464 00:31:45,960 --> 00:32:08,900 We'll treat each other as products and be able to continually check in and improve each other versus just sort of like, you know, I think the way a lot of companies who are groups that put software out, they sort of, it's almost just like packing your kid up in a car and then waving goodbye and then forgetting they ever existed instead of remaining involved in their lifelong term. 465 00:32:08,900 --> 00:32:11,660 To get your project versus product mindset, right? 466 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:19,960 I mean, if I'm going to stick with the software, then I'm probably looking at usage and tweaking it, especially based if things are going sideways versus, hey, this is starting to misbehave. 467 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,640 I guess we'll form a project team in next year's fiscal budget to maybe tweak something. 468 00:32:24,220 --> 00:32:29,160 Hopefully that won't be as possible as people actually start forming their software teams around the products they're shipping. 469 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,900 Yeah, and that's such a differentiator for us too, right? 470 00:32:32,980 --> 00:32:36,980 We work so closely with our clients to be able to carry on the work after we're done. 471 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:42,080 We don't just chuck it back over the fence after MVP and then just hope for the best, right? 472 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:48,720 We're enabling them 40 hours a week, every week, from the very genesis of the project kickoff. 473 00:32:49,220 --> 00:32:55,080 So in that way, I think that we can prepare them for these things too and testing in this manner as well. 474 00:32:56,340 --> 00:33:06,560 Yeah, I mean, do you think, as we talk about this kind of increasing role of software and this thing as we are keeping track of it, do you find that the responsibility might change now post-release? 475 00:33:06,700 --> 00:33:12,880 I mean, you know, whether it's Uber and self-driving cars, there's other things where, like, where do you start to pin responsibility on something? 476 00:33:13,100 --> 00:33:15,760 Sometimes you can say it's the software, but the software is not magic. 477 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:16,600 Somebody wrote it. 478 00:33:16,980 --> 00:33:20,920 So how do you see the impact of this as software becomes more pervasive? 479 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,760 Maybe we just haven't solved these problems yet and we're still debating it. 480 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:30,620 But in your mind, how do you start to think about the kind of post-release ownership of things when something ends up going sideways? 481 00:33:32,340 --> 00:33:35,320 Yeah, that's an interesting topic. 482 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:49,080 That's really hard because I feel like we're always trying to pin down one person or one person who is responsible or one person to blame for negative outcomes, like the Uber accident, for example. 483 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:56,780 And I think what it comes back down to, or at least where my mind goes, is that these are really complex systems. 484 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,740 You know, they're a part of a larger system, right? 485 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:06,260 And they're built by so many hands and so many different people with so many different kinds of input. 486 00:34:06,820 --> 00:34:13,280 And obviously there's, you know, a user who's also involved and plays a big part in that overall bigger system. 487 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:22,220 And it's, I think it's probably too difficult to just pin down one person to say, okay, this is the person who's responsible. 488 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,940 We're going to, you know, make them, we're going to make them pay for this consequence. 489 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,060 I think that we all need to take collective ownership. 490 00:34:29,380 --> 00:34:40,380 And instead of, you know, having our fingers pointed in, in either direction across us, you know, to, to the people on either side, you know, the, the onus and the responsibility comes back to us as individuals. 491 00:34:40,380 --> 00:34:42,000 You know, like, yeah, I work for Uber. 492 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,300 I had, I had a part of that project. 493 00:34:44,300 --> 00:34:48,620 I had a, you know, responsibility in that too, just like all my projects in DC. 494 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:48,980 Yeah. 495 00:34:49,060 --> 00:34:53,820 You know, the outcomes, I feel like I am in part responsible for those as well. 496 00:34:55,240 --> 00:34:55,640 Yeah. 497 00:34:55,680 --> 00:35:05,400 That's sort of like, uh, if, if, if you were to throw together, like the, uh, the five dysfunctions of teams and all the, uh, blameless postmortem work and make some sort of smoothie out of it. 498 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:13,960 There's sort of the, uh, I always think one of the more nuanced things that's raised in those points is, uh, the system is what's responsible for things. 499 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:25,900 Not, not necessarily like, and therefore none of us are responsible for it, but, but that, that we all need to be conscientious of building this system and building, uh, this machine that creates this output. 500 00:35:25,900 --> 00:35:39,360 And, and usually that means that, again, it's not that all of this isn't to absolve everyone from something, but it means that the responsibility is typically spread beyond just one individual who did something. 501 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:45,440 Right. And, and I think that's a lot, a lot of the, uh, the, the wisdom of blameless postmortems is like, sure. 502 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,720 It was like 3 AM on a Saturday night, or I guess a Sunday morning. 503 00:35:50,100 --> 00:35:59,180 And, uh, someone typed in a command and brought production down, but what's everything that led up to that point of absurdity that, that, that put that in place. 504 00:35:59,180 --> 00:36:09,900 And, and it does seem like having that broader analysis of stuff, especially whether it's like bringing down production or, or the kind of things we're talking about here, like that's really the main thing that's going to fix things. 505 00:36:09,900 --> 00:36:14,100 Not the, uh, the Hollywood esque, like lone hacker who screws things up. 506 00:36:14,580 --> 00:36:15,620 No, no doubt. 507 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:22,760 I just suspect as we get to, uh, you know, again, as you saw with Uber or other things, I don't think the public as a whole loves that answer. 508 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:30,280 Even though, you know, we in tech maybe have learned a bit about blameless postmortems and blaming the system when a person makes a mistake, it's because the system allowed them to. 509 00:36:30,620 --> 00:36:31,560 And I think people are dumb. 510 00:36:31,620 --> 00:36:36,120 It's just, you always look when the kid knocks something off the counter, they can't say, well, it fell. 511 00:36:36,240 --> 00:36:36,700 No, it didn't. 512 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:37,800 Like you pushed it, right? 513 00:36:37,820 --> 00:36:39,820 I mean, there's something, somebody owns it. 514 00:36:39,900 --> 00:36:42,300 And so it's always tricky to say, well, the system failed. 515 00:36:42,340 --> 00:36:42,620 Okay. 516 00:36:42,720 --> 00:36:46,200 Well, who, who's accountable for the system then somebody has to take responsibility. 517 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:47,940 And these are, these are good debates. 518 00:36:47,940 --> 00:36:51,920 Hopefully our listeners, even in their own companies have these discussions over lunch. 519 00:36:51,920 --> 00:37:00,120 Cause they probably all work with something that could have some sort of ethical side effect based on their financial stuff they're working on or government or media or whatever. 520 00:37:00,340 --> 00:37:02,320 So this isn't, nobody's immune from it. 521 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:03,760 I hope we just start talking about it more. 522 00:37:04,180 --> 00:37:04,300 Yeah. 523 00:37:04,540 --> 00:37:12,440 I mean, whenever my son or daughter like knocks over and breaks our priceless, uh, vase, uh, they'll, they'll have to come up with their reply. 524 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:13,960 Like, well, you shouldn't have put it there. 525 00:37:14,140 --> 00:37:16,040 Cause clearly it was going to get broken. 526 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:16,440 Well, right. 527 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:17,760 That's the system answer, right? 528 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:18,220 Exactly. 529 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:20,480 What can you do? 530 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,340 You knew this was going to happen. 531 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:29,340 Well, um, uh, so, so I, I think, I think, uh, I mean, as, as the last kind of topic. 532 00:37:29,340 --> 00:37:44,300 So, so you, you, you have this post here and you, and you know, I, I was interested in talking about this cause well, hopefully like many people, like I, I've been curious about this topic, uh, recently of like, how do we, uh, how do we inject more like ethical and moral thinking into stuff that we do? 533 00:37:44,300 --> 00:37:48,360 Cause obviously, uh, it's easy to, uh, it's easy to be negligent and have problems happen. 534 00:37:48,360 --> 00:38:00,920 So like, and, and there's not, I've noticed there, there's actually a lot more commentary and writing on this topic than I thought there was originally, but it doesn't seem like, uh, a mainstain of what we do. 535 00:38:00,980 --> 00:38:10,240 I mean, there's probably more writing and thinking on how to calibrate on story points than there is on like how to do like ethical software. 536 00:38:10,500 --> 00:38:18,660 So, so what do you, what do you think like are the, are the sort of next steps to, uh, like, I don't know, broaden this out and, and make it more widely thought about? 537 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:21,000 Yeah. 538 00:38:23,240 --> 00:38:25,220 I think it could go a lot of different places. 539 00:38:25,220 --> 00:38:27,920 I mean, like you said, it's a, it's a pretty hot topic right now. 540 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:40,220 And I feel like our industry is, is in some ways going through a bit of an existential crisis, um, kind of figuring out, you know, who we are and where we're going, because we've realized that move fast and break, break things. 541 00:38:40,500 --> 00:38:41,500 It doesn't work anymore. 542 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:47,120 We need to slow down, you know, the, the, the things and move fast and break things ends up being people. 543 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:48,760 It ends up being democracy. 544 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:53,040 It ends up being security, you know, and those are things that we don't want broken. 545 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:58,380 Those are things you can't put together again, or if you do put them together again, it's extremely difficult. 546 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:10,240 Um, so, you know, there's a lot of talk about, uh, you know, industry oversight, or at least, uh, oversight for designers, um, having some sort of standardization, 547 00:39:10,240 --> 00:39:17,920 or something like a bar that you have to, you know, test and then pass, um, you know, who knows if that's going to be a thing. 548 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:28,140 Um, but we, I think ultimately, you know, we, we do yield a lot of responsibility and we are really coming to terms with that right now. 549 00:39:28,140 --> 00:39:29,020 And I think it's good. 550 00:39:29,020 --> 00:39:39,960 I think it's, it's a really good time, um, before we get any farther with the technology that we already have, before we get any more advanced than we are to really stop and think, okay, 551 00:39:39,980 --> 00:39:42,400 what is this that we're using right now? 552 00:39:42,500 --> 00:39:51,160 How can it be used, um, against us potentially, uh, and how might we mitigate something very terrible before it happens? 553 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:58,180 And I, I do think that whatever, um, comes out of it all, um, will hopefully move us in the right direction. 554 00:39:58,720 --> 00:39:59,120 Yeah. 555 00:39:59,360 --> 00:39:59,800 Yeah. 556 00:40:00,220 --> 00:40:04,840 You know, it's, it's like the, uh, the old saying, don't, uh, what, I forget how it goes. 557 00:40:05,220 --> 00:40:09,140 Don't, don't miss the productivity option of a crisis or whatever. 558 00:40:09,260 --> 00:40:11,280 I think there's a more concise way of putting it. 559 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,340 The, uh, don't miss out on the opportunity of a crisis. 560 00:40:14,500 --> 00:40:15,080 Well, great. 561 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,400 Well, well, thanks for being on to, uh, to go over that. 562 00:40:17,460 --> 00:40:27,780 We'll put, we'll put a, as always a link, uh, in the show notes since we didn't, uh, verbatim read the, uh, the principles there, but that, that was a, that was, that was a, uh, a great piece of content to get out there. 563 00:40:27,780 --> 00:40:29,980 And, and I appreciate you going over with us. 564 00:40:30,620 --> 00:40:30,980 Yeah. 565 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:32,400 Thank you for taking the time. 566 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:32,880 Sure. 567 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,640 Well, well, as always, this has been Pivotal Conversations. 568 00:40:35,820 --> 00:40:43,640 If you want to find all of the, uh, deliciously exciting episodes for next week, maybe you've allowed yourself to take your, uh, what was it? 569 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,600 Your, your, your Roxy Rio thing full of MP3s out for camping. 570 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,320 Cause you just, you don't want to listen to crickets and you want to download some old episodes. 571 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:57,640 You can go to a soundcloud.com slash Pivotal Conversations and find those episodes and some that we've highlighted. 572 00:40:57,780 --> 00:41:05,320 And every Thursday, usually we, uh, post the full show notes, uh, for each episode over at pivotal.io slash podcast. 573 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:07,820 And remember you have one more week. 574 00:41:07,820 --> 00:41:17,500 If you've listened to this on more or less the day that we recorded it to go submit your thing to a SpringOne platform, which will be a fun conference to have or to be at. 575 00:41:17,500 --> 00:41:21,900 So, uh, you should go do that or at least come see us at one of our SpringOne tours. 576 00:41:22,420 --> 00:41:24,020 And with that, we'll see everyone next time. 577 00:41:24,240 --> 00:41:24,640 Bye-bye.