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Well, you know, on my other podcast, the Software Defined Talk, we always end each show with some recommendations.

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But I thought for this episode here, we would start with just overall recommendation.

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I think we've tackled this topic before, but both of you and I do business travel every now and then.

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And so this was going to be, what's your, I wouldn't call it number one, it could be,

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but what would be one recommendation you would give people for business travel?

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It could be like a thought technology, or like you should have four wheels on your suitcase instead of two,

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or like take a tote bag, or here's an app that I like to use.

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What's something you would recommend?

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Oof, on the spot.

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I am, I don't check bags anymore.

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Since my very first business trip, they lost my luggage and I walked into the customer site in t-shirt and jeans like an idiot.

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So I'm almost maniacal by carry-on.

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I'm not the person who lurks at the front of the line until they call my section though, because I'm not a psycho.

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But I do try to get fairly quickly to at least get my bag in the overhead.

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So that's probably my, like don't check it unless you're carrying like a crossbow or a bike or something enormous.

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Probably just carry on if you can.

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And then my on-plane advice, I've shared this before, I don't think with you,

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and boy, the first, the minute the plane takes off and that person puts their seat all the way back,

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my move is to put the air vent onto their head so they get really uncomfortable and put the seat back up.

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That's funny.

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That's, that's a, you know, you're like, you're always secretly aggressive.

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Very subtle about it.

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It's a quiet power move.

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So either they move to seat up or they get pneumonia.

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Like I win either way at that point.

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That's funny.

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That's, that's strategic use of the air vent.

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I don't, I don't pay attention to the air vent that much anymore, that much anymore.

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But I guess as summer approaches, I probably will.

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Like there's, you know, leaving from Alice, Alice, Austin and Dallas.

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I was amalgamating the names there.

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It's often the case that it's a little warm in the metal tube on the runway in Texas.

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So maybe I'll get familiar with it.

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Well, I was thinking, you know, my, my piece of advice I try to give people is it's, it's a,

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it's a good compliment, I think, for the never check a bag, which, which is, is basically like,

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once you get past airport security, you should just relax and not worry about anything.

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Because like, worst case scenario, maybe if you're like, you know, uh, an overly vigilant

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employee who actually worries about as, as one should, I mean, I know I definitely am who worries

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about like, you know, performing perfectly all the time.

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Like even if your flight's canceled or late, you'll get there eventually.

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And it's just, there's just like so much stuff out of your control that, uh, if you spend all

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your time freaking out, you're just going to be freaking out.

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And that's a great point.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So I figured it's just, I mean, you know, I guess there is a certain line that, that you

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cross over, I think when you do a lot of travel, like I do where, uh, well, as someone once

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told me, if, if you're a frequent traveler and you don't miss and you, and you miss, let's

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see, and you're not missing a few flights each year, you're probably doing it wrong, which,

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you know, if you only travel like three or four times a year, that's a bad idea to miss

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flights, but it is, uh, you know, you'll get there eventually and it's fine.

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And so you should just relax and chill out.

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Cause you know, there's going to be plenty of other people freaking out and they're going

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to suck all the energy out of the air, uh, which is too bad.

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Are you a people watcher at the airport for me?

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That, that is, I purposely try not to read or use my phone as much.

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Cause I come up with elaborate backstories for a lot of the people sitting next to me.

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Of course.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I'm a, I'm a, is the word inveterate?

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Does that mean constant or something?

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I, uh, I, I people watch all the time and, and I guess, I guess that kind of brings up

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the, uh, the second little, uh, business travel advices, you know, I usually, you know,

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listen to a podcast a lot when I'm in my life, but, uh, I find that if I'm traveling somewhere

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and I'm walking around, I try not to listen to a podcast so I can just listen to the city

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and, uh, see what's going on.

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Maybe like I was in Paris a couple of weeks ago and like, after being there like two or

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three days, you know, I I'd listened enough to the city, I guess.

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And I've also been there many times, but it's fun.

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Like when you go somewhere new to just like, uh, look around and, and figure out what's

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happening, even if all you're doing is like walking across the street to your, your big

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boy business meeting or something.

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But it's interesting to decode what's going on.

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Like, like one thing I picked up from Bruce Sterling that you can do if you need, uh, you

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need some structure to your, uh, looking around is check out the manhole covers, or I guess

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we would say person hole covers.

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And it's, it's often fun to like decode who the local utility providers are, like where

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the manhole, the covers are made, all sorts of things like that.

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Like if you were, uh, around here in Austin, wandering around, you'll notice that, uh, several

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of them say SBC Southern Bell communications, which, uh, you know, for, uh, the foot close

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followers of American business, uh, acquired, what did they acquire?

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What did it used to be before it was AT&T wireless Cigna, that's an insurance company.

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They had some funny name, but they acquired whatever the cell phone company is.

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And then they acquired AT&T and renamed themselves AT&T.

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So it was a, uh, I don't know.

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What would you call that?

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Reverse baby bell?

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I know you come to this podcast for the tech talk and stay for the telecom history.

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That's right.

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Yeah.

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What was, what was that?

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What was their mobile company called?

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I'm gonna have to go look that up now, but it wasn't.

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Hmm.

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Hmm.

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Anyways.

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Yeah.

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And then there's finally, so what I was just describing, I, I, our friend, uh, James

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governor at red monk, I'm sure I'll pronounce this wrong, but the, the act of being a flow

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near, which, which is just to see a place by aimlessly wandering around.

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That's what's good to do when you're on business travel.

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That's right.

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So, uh, there's your, your French.

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And as you say, telco history for this week, let me check that off the list.

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So, uh, we don't have a guest this week.

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So we were thinking we would, uh, in, in our, our second half, we'd go over some, a sort

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of, uh, frequently asked questions and, and also, uh, cut by interesting to us questions

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that, that we get at the end there.

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But first, as always, there's some news that we have.

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So we had a, uh, a new version of pivotal cloud foundry come out version 2.1.

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And I noticed over there in Twitter that you were very excited about the windows stuff.

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I think you might've written a tweet like three or four times.

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Did that come through?

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No, it's fine.

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You're, you're the, you're the officially excited about windows person around here, which, which

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I think is good.

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But what's, let's start with that.

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What's, what's the windows stuff that's in there?

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Yeah.

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The windows stuff is supporting windows server containers, which kind of came out in windows

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server 2016.

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So you just got to get this first class support.

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And so I wrote up a blog post that just talked about how we can do some cool Boshi things

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with windows now.

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And if you're at a traditional enterprise, your options for running windows have not been

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great.

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And running windows is one thing, but running like app friendly windows, like it's ready

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to go for your app container that you can restart things without downtime.

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That just hasn't been a strong suit in most enterprises.

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So the fact that we can do that really cleanly now is pretty exciting.

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And then all the CF stuff just works that all the CF pushes and service brokers and SSH

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into a, you know, tunnel into a container is really cool.

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And being able to have metrics and logging.

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So just all the stuff you like from spring boot stuff is also cool for.net and windows stuff

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in PCF.

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So just a nice advance for those sorts of things and all different types of apps as well.

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So because it's using windows containers, you can bring your gnarly apps that use the windows

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registry or file system or things like that.

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So just a really nice update on top of some other stuff in PCF two, one, which had things

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like service instance sharing.

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So, Hey, you stand up a rabbit MQ in your space.

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Guess what?

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You can share that with other spaces now too, and everyone else can take advantage of your

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message bus.

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So a lot of nice little features made its way in.

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We also used Envoy, which is kind of some cool tech for sidecar in applications.

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We use that to actually do secure communication all the way down from that front router, all

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the way down to the container.

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So we can have encrypted traffic.

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We can make sure it only goes to the right application instance, some really cool security

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things, application monitoring and all the window stuff, which apparently I'm excessively

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excited about.

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Well, you know, we, we, we talk about all the Java stuff incessantly too.

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So we got it.

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We got to make sure that, that the equally awesome windows world gets their due.

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That is important.

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Yeah.

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You know, I, uh, I've, I've, I've liked our, uh, at a meta layer.

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I've noticed that our release notes, uh, recently or release blogs have been like in, in a good

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way, insanely detailed, which is nice.

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I like that.

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Like I, I remember back speaking of Java back when I, uh, you know, had a real job programming.

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I was, I was always for some reason, really excited to read the eclipse release notes because

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they would always be like five or eight pages.

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And I mean, I guess I know why I was excited because I used it every day, all day, uh, to

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do all my wacky little programming.

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And it's fun to like discover the little tiny things in there from the giant parts of it to

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the little flourishes and stuff like that.

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So I still have that leftover that reading a detailed release notes is fun.

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And it's now in, in the app store, it's terrible.

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Cause they're just like, we're constantly updating this app to make it better.

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And it's such a letdown.

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That is the word, isn't it?

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Oh, like, Oh, Twitter updated to improve your experience.

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Did you just start tracking my movement?

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Like what did you add to the app?

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Yeah.

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There's a few, like the drafts app and, you know, I think there's probably a general rule

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that any app that supports Markdown probably has detailed release notes just because it's a

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programmer's doing it, but yeah, we'll put a link to there and there's, there's plenty of, uh,

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plenty of stuff overviewing there.

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And then just to throw out an abstract thing, I started reading, um, what the, uh, the DevOps

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report people, the door of people, they put out a new book that's sort of like the, uh,

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the science behind the DevOps reports.

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And it also goes over the stuff that they find there.

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And I, I've been, uh, I thought I got, I would get it on tape.

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I don't know if you've ever listened to, well, not on tape, you know what I mean?

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Uh, I don't know if you've ever listened to sort of like a technical book, the audio version,

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but it's, I don't know if I have, it's kind of funny cause it'll, it, and especially an

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academic one because they'll cite authors and they'll be like, you know, uh, you should

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do Windows registry support, Sir Rotor 2015.

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And it's just a weird, like, it's a weird thing to hear, but it makes total sense.

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Anyways, uh, you know, one of the big things they've had in the DevOps report for a while

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is like, as they say, moving security to the left.

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And I, and I was thinking like, well, of course that makes sense because, you know, you want

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your stuff to be secure and it's, um, much like performance, like, uh, and also just QAing,

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it's going to like bring down, not even bring down, it's going to damage your system if you

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have bad security.

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And it, and it got me to wondering, like, I mean, like where is the line of stuff you

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should move to the left?

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Like in theory, the next thing's going to be like audit and compliance and you should probably

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move that to the left and then on and on and on.

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And, and because I always think it was weird that security is in there, uh, just because

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it kind of doesn't fit with the other stuff, but I take, uh, you know, what it is I take

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they mean with security is like the developers should write secure code.

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That would be a good idea.

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And I'm being a little snarky in the phrasing, but there's a whole host of things that I don't

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think developers really pay attention to that eventually needs to shift over to the left

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there.

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Yeah, that's fair.

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So I don't know.

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I just saw the security part of the release notes and it reminded me of that, but that's,

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that's maybe, maybe in 2022, the Dora report will say auditing shifts to the left.

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That'll be fun.

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Well, also, yeah, I'll also, uh, I didn't notice this, but you pointed out that, uh, maybe like

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a week or two after acquiring a MuleSoft that Salesforce has an integration cloud.

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I think, I think, do they call that an iPaaS?

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That'd be very exciting.

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Yeah, it's a good question.

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They didn't label it that way.

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I mean, obviously that tells you some of this stuff was in the works for a bit and Salesforce

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is a little bit notorious for announcing things before they're ready, but this does feel like

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it's a pretty interesting piece.

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They've got a few pieces in the link we, uh, we have in the show notes about different parts

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of an integration builder to kind of just construct, I think the integrations of a platform for

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running some of the pieces and things like that.

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So it makes sense that they're getting harder and deeper into this integration game.

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Again, it'll be interesting to see how it impacts their community as a whole, since everybody

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else likes to integrate with Salesforce too.

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Yep.

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And then similarly in big vendor announcements, Oracle had a, uh, I haven't, I haven't found

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the release notes on this.

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Not that I would know what to do with them, but it sounds like they've got a lot more automation

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into their, uh, their data warehousing and, and have a, uh, a hosted cloud version of it.

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And I was reading another, uh, some, uh, some coverage over on geek wire, which as, as I'll

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probably say all year, just to get people to read it is has become a surprisingly good source

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for tech news.

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I mean, surprisingly, cause I'd never heard of it apart from five months ago or so.

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Uh, and, uh, you know, they, they were, they were saying that the, uh, there was a bit

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of the tone of the announcement that like, well, while we may not be able to do great at

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the infrastructure as a service area, we, we should be able to do very well at the, uh,

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at the database.

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And, and I don't know what, what that layer would be called.

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I'm going to have to go look up my Gartner taxonomy to see where, where databases and things

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like that fit in.

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But it does seem, uh, I don't know.

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Yeah.

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It'll be interesting to see how, how that stuff pans out just because, um, you know, everyone

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uses Oracle and they also have, uh, my, my, my.

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Sequel in there, which, which is, uh, fascinating to look at.

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And then, and then also, uh, there was, there was some perhaps related news that they're opening

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a new campus here in Austin.

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It looked like it was downtown and, uh, they got around just over 2000 people now.

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And, and they said, uh, there'll be, there'll be filling it out to 10,000.

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I didn't read a timeline for that, but that's a lot of people, uh, especially to be in downtown

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there.

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We're going to build another lane on the highway.

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Although, you know, it evoked in me a little old guy, uh, sentiment.

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Which usually tech companies are very excited about being downtown, we're downtown USA.

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And, and in here they were writing about how, uh, you know, there's lots of workers who

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could, uh, walk or bicycle into work and me not living downtown.

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I always think, uh, I don't want to go downtown.

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You got to find parking, things like that.

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But now that said, I am always trying to hustle up a downtown job so that someone else

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pays for a full-time parking space.

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But thus far in my 20 plus years of employment, that has never panned out.

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So, uh, all it takes is one parking spot downtown and I'll turn the ship around.

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Be all about a downtown office.

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Yeah, that's, uh, that's good.

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Well, for all those 10,000 people, I guess it takes a lot of people to run an autonomous

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data warehouse.

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So it's not all, it's not all robots, but it's like some cool tech that they're working

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on there.

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And Oracle can overcome some of their kind of brand challenge.

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Sometimes it seems like there's still a lot of really smart engineering happening there.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I mean, that's, uh, the technology they work on is not easy.

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So there's definitely technical smarts over there.

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Uh, and then, and then also last week, the, uh, Solomon over at Docker, I think he's been

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at Docker and then dot cloud for like 10 years or so.

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So it looks like he's finally pulling away a little bit instead of being the, I forget

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if he was the CTO or the chief product officer or something like that.

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But I think he's, he's, as it said, it's still on like the board and involved, but it

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is like, you know, we don't often call out individuals, but that, that dude has certainly

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been a, uh, a huge part of the overall cloud native world, uh, figuring out how to, how

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to, how to make, as, as one article put it, a, uh, a relatively obscure part of the

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Linux operating system, like, like usable and, uh, and, and, you know, use not only usable,

291
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but, but extremely helpful for everyone in the form of Docker and whatever the names

292
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are now, it's definitely, uh, been, been an extremely important piece of technology.

293
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No doubt.

294
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I mean, that's, uh, I've said people can argue all containers have been around forever

295
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and this and that, but it misses the point that he solved the packaging and usability

296
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challenge for a lot of people to, to use the tech and, you know, Docker, the business,

297
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I think it remains to be seen how they're going to monetize open source.

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That's a hard problem for a lot of companies.

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And, you know, he was always an interesting character in the space, but man, you, you really

300
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tip your cat cap to someone who really changed the course of software development for a lot

301
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of companies and teams.

302
00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:43,360
So huge props, you know, sometimes the team you start with, isn't the team you can scale

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with.

304
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And that's why founders leave and things like that.

305
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But, you know, hopefully everyone stops to reflect on, you know, a big impact and whatever he

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does next, people will pay attention to.

307
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Yeah.

308
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Yeah.

309
00:16:52,660 --> 00:16:57,680
Also 10 years through two different companies, man, I think I would last maybe like seven months.

310
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That's, that's, that's, that's a lot of like, uh, as, as, uh, as our buddy, Andrew

311
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Schaefer likes to say, Hmm, that sounds dangerously close to real work.

312
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:12,960
So, yeah, but, uh, you know, we, we had a longer discussion of it over on, uh, my other

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podcast software to find talk episode one eight, one 28, if you want to go check it out, I

314
00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:22,720
was thinking about it and I sort of probably came off sounding a bit jerkish, but that's

315
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the tone of the podcast.

316
00:17:24,020 --> 00:17:26,700
I think, uh, I think there's, that's right.

317
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There's, there's more of a good discussion of what you were talking about.

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Like how, uh, as always like little topical new stuff like this is more of a string of an

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00:17:34,820 --> 00:17:39,420
interesting sweater to unravel, unravel about how the, uh, how the teams and the needs evolve

320
00:17:39,420 --> 00:17:43,300
of a company over time, which related neither here nor there.

321
00:17:43,380 --> 00:17:46,340
And then also in the area of, uh, promotion.

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00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:52,100
So, uh, one of our more frequent guests, Rita was, uh, I had her on my, uh, software to find

323
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interviews, uh, uh, podcast to talk about analyst relations and how it works and how she

324
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got into that.

325
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So it was just like, as I do on that podcast, just an interview about, uh, you know, partly

326
00:18:03,180 --> 00:18:07,580
about the person themselves and also the, the work or the topic area they're in.

327
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And I think, you know, it's, it's, uh, obviously it's a good episode, but, uh, she always has,

328
00:18:12,780 --> 00:18:15,940
uh, great conversations on this topic and an interesting point.

329
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So you can check out our show notes to see that.

330
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:24,040
And then, uh, uh, tonight I'm going up to Dallas for a two day SpringOne tour.

331
00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:29,320
So, I mean, it says it's sold out, but also you probably won't hear this until later on,

332
00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:31,020
but it'll be, uh, tomorrow.

333
00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:31,500
What is that?

334
00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:33,240
April 3rd and, uh, 4th.

335
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,200
But then I noticed we have a whole passel of these going on.

336
00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:41,440
I, I, uh, I remembered, I was looking at my, uh, my teammates travel schedule and this is

337
00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:42,720
like all they're doing this year.

338
00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:44,700
Not all they're doing, but it's a huge part.

339
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So, uh, if you go to, uh, I think it's, uh, uh, spring tour.io, uh, and SpringOne tour.io,

340
00:18:52,500 --> 00:18:54,760
and you can check out all the cities like Denver and St.

341
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:56,940
Louis, London, Los Angeles, New York.

342
00:18:56,940 --> 00:19:00,120
And then there's a whole lot more like Chicago and Istanbul.

343
00:19:00,120 --> 00:19:04,980
And of course, San Francisco, Tokyo, Seoul, and Beijing, Singapore, and Paris all throughout

344
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the rest of the year.

345
00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:10,980
So if you're, if you remember our, uh, cloud native roadshows from years past, I think I

346
00:19:10,980 --> 00:19:16,880
would call these like, uh, maybe like a degree more technical, although those were very technical

347
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:21,460
last year, but you'll get to see all of the, uh, you know, your, your, your sort of spring

348
00:19:21,460 --> 00:19:25,420
boot talks and other technical talks and programming things about what are going on there.

349
00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:31,600
I think the idea is we bring SpringOne to you, uh, which people, there you go.

350
00:19:32,140 --> 00:19:35,460
Well, I think that's the big difference for these is this is almost like a mini conference

351
00:19:35,460 --> 00:19:39,680
with lots of talks versus one or two really smart people doing kind of lecture style all

352
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:39,900
day.

353
00:19:40,020 --> 00:19:42,240
So hopefully it's a nice mix and a good energy in there.

354
00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:43,620
It seems like the first couple have been great.

355
00:19:44,180 --> 00:19:49,140
Um, yeah, I was asked to go up there to, uh, MC the event and run the open spaces.

356
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:52,540
So we'll see if I get asked to do it again.

357
00:19:53,620 --> 00:19:56,180
I don't know.

358
00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,260
I, I'm not really sure how to MC something.

359
00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:04,520
What I've been telling myself is I should probably talk about seven eighths less than I do.

360
00:20:04,620 --> 00:20:07,720
That's probably the key to successful MCing.

361
00:20:08,180 --> 00:20:10,580
And, uh, yeah, to state the obvious.

362
00:20:10,660 --> 00:20:14,160
Well, anyways, uh, like I was mentioning, uh, I thought it'd be fun.

363
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:19,360
To go over some, some frequently asked questions we have to sort of, uh, explain the idea.

364
00:20:19,740 --> 00:20:22,080
And, uh, I don't know, grab the first one.

365
00:20:22,120 --> 00:20:29,660
I was, when I was, uh, in France a couple of weeks ago, um, uh, I, I went to several lecture

366
00:20:29,660 --> 00:20:33,740
sessions, as you say, sort of like I was there with, uh, someone at one of my teammates,

367
00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:36,460
Nate, and he would talk about a cloud native programming.

368
00:20:36,460 --> 00:20:40,040
And I would go through my usual, uh, how organizations are doing things.

369
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:46,100
And, and it's, it's fun to catalog the questions that you get after, let's say 60 to 120 minutes

370
00:20:46,100 --> 00:20:47,800
talking about how to improve IT.

371
00:20:48,460 --> 00:20:54,080
Um, and there's one that I was asked, uh, at one of the places I was at that kind of put

372
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this idea in my head.

373
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,980
And, uh, I, I, I rephrased it because of course a French person was asking it.

374
00:21:00,020 --> 00:21:03,820
They were always very timid about speaking English, but I tried to tell them your English

375
00:21:03,820 --> 00:21:04,420
is fine.

376
00:21:04,420 --> 00:21:09,100
And the secret of, of native English speakers is we just make up everything as we go along.

377
00:21:09,260 --> 00:21:12,120
It's not like it was, it's not like we're speaking.

378
00:21:12,300 --> 00:21:13,620
We know some perfect grammar.

379
00:21:13,700 --> 00:21:14,840
I don't even know what grammar is.

380
00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:19,560
We just, uh, that that's something that they don't teach you in like, uh, middle school

381
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:24,060
and junior, junior high English that what your English teacher should do is take everyone

382
00:21:24,060 --> 00:21:28,260
inside and be like, Hey, by the way, you can totally make up anything you want.

383
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:33,580
Like that's, that's, that's a, that's a major feature of the English language.

384
00:21:33,660 --> 00:21:36,440
But anyways, I rephrased the question.

385
00:21:36,620 --> 00:21:42,700
And, uh, they, he was asking basically when you're trying to do your digital transformation

386
00:21:42,700 --> 00:21:45,760
or whatever, like, what do you do with like grumpy people?

387
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:51,800
Like people who don't want to change and, uh, they, they're very resistant to moving away

388
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:57,160
from, you know, the six or nine months release cycles with the siloed mindset and communicating

389
00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:03,020
through tickets and, you know, all just your, your, your, um, a straw person of your worst

390
00:22:03,020 --> 00:22:03,680
case scenario.

391
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:09,520
And, you know, I think as I recall, I came up with essentially there's like three things

392
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:14,940
that I've seen people do when they need to, uh, deal with grumpy people, resistors, I guess.

393
00:22:15,120 --> 00:22:22,000
And, and usually specifically this question is about like individual people who are resistors,

394
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:26,400
not like, you know, management or organizations or things like that.

395
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:30,900
Like that's a whole other different, uh, topic, but you have these individuals.

396
00:22:30,900 --> 00:22:35,880
And the first thing, uh, I think I'd given myself a lecture, uh, earlier in the week that

397
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:39,200
I should try to be a positive person instead of being so negative.

398
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:43,960
So I started off with that one, which is, you know, there's, there's sort of a, uh, an

399
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:49,080
emphasis in the, in the devopsy world and the agile world to build up sort of empathy and

400
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:49,720
understanding.

401
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:54,940
And so one of the things I've noticed recurring when I hear stories about, uh, turning frowns

402
00:22:54,940 --> 00:22:59,660
upside down on grumpy people is to like, try to apply some of that thinking and think about

403
00:22:59,660 --> 00:23:01,300
why are they grumpy and resistant?

404
00:23:01,300 --> 00:23:01,780
Right.

405
00:23:01,780 --> 00:23:07,340
Like, and if, if they're probably our age or older, they've been through like two to

406
00:23:07,340 --> 00:23:10,220
five waves of how everything is going to be more awesome.

407
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:15,340
And they might even have some old printout of their like six Sigma black belt or whatever

408
00:23:15,340 --> 00:23:17,280
from whatever industry they're in.

409
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,780
And then here we are again, telling them they need to change again.

410
00:23:19,780 --> 00:23:22,360
And you get sort of like, uh, improvement fatigue.

411
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:28,740
And then even more so, like it's often the case, uh, definitely not in any company we currently

412
00:23:28,740 --> 00:23:34,400
have ever worked for or any of our customers, but other people where the organization sort

413
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,260
of just like betrays people over time, sort of sets them up for failure.

414
00:23:38,260 --> 00:23:42,620
Like we're going to do this fun new thing and not, not fun, but we're going to do something

415
00:23:42,620 --> 00:23:44,540
in a fantastic new way.

416
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:50,100
And then for some reason, uh, you know, people end up getting punished or blamed when things

417
00:23:50,100 --> 00:23:50,700
don't go well.

418
00:23:50,700 --> 00:23:55,320
So I think it's good to sort of like understand the source of the grumpiness and then you can

419
00:23:55,320 --> 00:24:00,380
try to, uh, do something about that and, and when people over to it, instead of just sort

420
00:24:00,380 --> 00:24:06,100
of like, uh, writing them off as someone who's grumpy, like they might have a very good reason

421
00:24:06,100 --> 00:24:08,680
and, uh, it's, it's good to go in there and figure it out.

422
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:14,380
And then the second thing that I've noticed people doing is, uh, uh, and, and it goes back

423
00:24:14,380 --> 00:24:17,080
to the, the magic of pairing and pair programming.

424
00:24:17,220 --> 00:24:23,800
And I remember I recorded a tiny little monologue about this somewhere on the internet, but, um,

425
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:29,740
on one of these cloud native roadshow tours of all places, uh, we were in, um, Kansas city,

426
00:24:29,740 --> 00:24:34,680
I think, and some Garmin people had come there to give, give a bit of a talk.

427
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:39,920
And they were saying, well, they had a question about pair programming and, uh, especially what

428
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,580
happens when senior people are not interested in it.

429
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:48,900
And they had an interesting story that, um, a lot of senior people are sort of insulted

430
00:24:48,900 --> 00:24:52,880
by getting paired, not a lot, but some senior people are insulted with getting paired with

431
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:53,680
a junior person.

432
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:59,120
And, uh, you know, so they object to it, but they were noting that what they observed with

433
00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:05,400
a lot of their senior people was that, uh, usually by virtue of being senior, this person

434
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,020
is good at problem solving and coding.

435
00:25:08,020 --> 00:25:12,940
So they're, they, they're a helpful worker, but that usually means in the world of software

436
00:25:12,940 --> 00:25:17,920
that they spend all their time diagnosing, you know, giant problems and explosions.

437
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:22,920
So they're sort of like the, uh, the wizard on the hill that can solve all of your issues.

438
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,060
So they don't really spend a lot of time programming anymore.

439
00:25:25,060 --> 00:25:29,880
They're always debugging things and figuring out why production is down and stuff like that.

440
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:34,400
And they were saying that there were some of these senior people and, uh, and then they're

441
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:39,620
also harried and grumpy, um, and, uh, that once they started pair programming with people,

442
00:25:39,620 --> 00:25:45,000
they remembered that they like programming and they got back to like actually being able

443
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,440
to program instead of pouring through log files and things like that.

444
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,640
So that was, that was another thing that like to get over grumpy people is it's a bit of

445
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,460
like a lame answer because the answer is like, well, just make them do the process, but at

446
00:25:56,460 --> 00:25:59,340
least it's sort of a tool that you have at your disposal.

447
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,740
And then finally, the answer that is, uh, don't solve the problem.

448
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:08,820
Like there's, there's several organizations, uh, of our customers that I've talked with.

449
00:26:08,820 --> 00:26:12,460
And, and you see this pattern over and over again, or part of this pattern where they,

450
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:17,240
they set up a new organization and they might call it like a labs, or if they're all state,

451
00:26:17,300 --> 00:26:18,840
they come up with their own name for it.

452
00:26:18,940 --> 00:26:23,020
And, um, like I was talking with a Duke energy person a while ago and they're buying,

453
00:26:23,100 --> 00:26:26,100
you know, an old red brick building in downtown Charlotte.

454
00:26:26,100 --> 00:26:31,800
So they set up a separate organization and one of the consequences you have of this is

455
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:36,760
it's sort of a passive aggressive thing is you tend to take volunteers to go into the

456
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:37,400
new organization.

457
00:26:37,500 --> 00:26:41,520
So you sort of bring over, uh, the people who are interested on it.

458
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:48,120
And as a, you know, I think passive aggressive management is typically a bad idea, but so

459
00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:51,400
whether it's a good idea or not, one of the side effects you get is that if someone's not

460
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,280
interested in changing or doing things in the new way, they just stay over in the old

461
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,720
organization doing things in the old way.

462
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:03,060
But the summary of all of that is like, you either have to, uh, convert the grumpy people

463
00:27:03,060 --> 00:27:07,520
over by understanding why they're grumpy or maybe letting them experience a new thing or

464
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:15,260
in some way, uh, not invite them to the party and let them, let them, uh, remain in what it

465
00:27:15,260 --> 00:27:17,580
is they're comfortable with and in what they want to do.

466
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:19,800
So that's good.

467
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:21,600
That's, that's one question I get frequently.

468
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:26,020
And then I'll just add one more thing that it's fun to, uh, when you're in Europe and

469
00:27:26,020 --> 00:27:30,060
I imagine other places where, where unions are extremely strong and you can't really,

470
00:27:30,060 --> 00:27:34,240
uh, uh, tell people that they don't work with you anymore.

471
00:27:34,620 --> 00:27:38,300
There's always, uh, that adds another wrinkle to the puzzle.

472
00:27:38,300 --> 00:27:42,960
Like if you're talking with government people and, uh, and others, like sometimes you don't

473
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:47,480
really have a lot of choice about the assignment that you give people and, uh, like if you want

474
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,520
to employ them or not and things like that.

475
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,120
So it makes it a more wicked problem to deal with.

476
00:27:52,420 --> 00:27:53,320
So how about yourself?

477
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,860
What's, what's the first one, the question you get a lot?

478
00:27:56,300 --> 00:27:57,980
Well, I want to poke at you on that one for a second.

479
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,840
Um, so yeah, that was, that was good.

480
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,400
From my experience, it kind of echoes you, you invest in people, then sometimes you have

481
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,400
to isolate them if they're just not going to work.

482
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,740
And then, you know, at some point, again, assuming you're able to, sometimes it just

483
00:28:10,740 --> 00:28:12,840
doesn't make sense for that person to be there anymore.

484
00:28:13,100 --> 00:28:16,740
And yet you, like you say, you first have to understand things and hopefully invest in

485
00:28:16,740 --> 00:28:17,200
that works.

486
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,560
And sometimes you have to carve them off or keep them in the old team while the new

487
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:21,240
team innovates.

488
00:28:21,700 --> 00:28:24,860
But gosh, I just haven't seen a whole lot of transformations that don't involve some

489
00:28:24,860 --> 00:28:28,580
turnover because some people just don't want to wear a pager or some people don't want

490
00:28:28,580 --> 00:28:32,460
to work in balanced teams or, you know what, they've had one change too many and they're

491
00:28:32,460 --> 00:28:34,160
just burnt out and you understand that.

492
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,920
So I think we have to sometimes recognize the fact that some people just aren't a fit for

493
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,080
the current transformation, even if they're burned out.

494
00:28:41,420 --> 00:28:45,860
But hopefully, as you say, you re, you re-engage your passion by realizing what you were trying

495
00:28:45,860 --> 00:28:48,900
to do in the first place, which was build cool tech to solve neat problems.

496
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:49,740
Yeah.

497
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:51,040
Well, that seems to work.

498
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:51,400
Yeah.

499
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:56,680
That reminds me of two little anecdotes that I think fit well with that.

500
00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:01,920
One is, I think, I forget where I, I'm sure I've written this up somewhere, but there's

501
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:10,380
one of my, a vignette I have somewhere where, like, I remember I had talked with some management

502
00:29:10,380 --> 00:29:17,560
at some organization who was about like, uh, a year into doing all their cloud native stuff.

503
00:29:18,060 --> 00:29:22,740
And, uh, we, we were, we were talking in a big room with lots of people about this issue

504
00:29:22,740 --> 00:29:24,060
and everything was fine.

505
00:29:24,060 --> 00:29:27,480
And then, and then as I was leaving, like he was walking, this person was walking me out.

506
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,220
We were, we were literally in the parking garage.

507
00:29:29,220 --> 00:29:32,640
Like we're in some spy movie and he was like, Hey, Oh yeah.

508
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,220
Also, uh, you know, the turnover is really high.

509
00:29:36,260 --> 00:29:39,900
Like I, he was like, I didn't want to talk about that very much, but like, yeah, I had

510
00:29:39,900 --> 00:29:45,340
to get, I had to transition a lot of people out of my organization because they were very

511
00:29:45,340 --> 00:29:46,140
resistant to it.

512
00:29:46,140 --> 00:29:51,660
So you do hear like that, uh, to your point, there's some people who just, uh, I don't know,

513
00:29:51,740 --> 00:29:54,900
they, they, they don't want to convert over after all these efforts to do it.

514
00:29:54,900 --> 00:29:56,420
And then there's another one.

515
00:29:56,500 --> 00:30:00,860
I need to go look up, uh, which talk this is, but the, uh, well, I know which talk it

516
00:30:00,860 --> 00:30:06,640
is there, the, um, there was a talk at SpringOne platform, uh, that, that I was helping out

517
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,200
with and it was called navigating the, uh, the no.

518
00:30:10,500 --> 00:30:15,460
And I think, I think there's a, there's an interview with, with this, uh, with this guy,

519
00:30:15,580 --> 00:30:21,240
John, um, on our, our, would it be brother or sister podcast over there on pivotal insights.

520
00:30:21,380 --> 00:30:24,700
But he has an interesting point about team composition is that when you're putting your

521
00:30:24,700 --> 00:30:30,400
team together, uh, you don't want to necessarily get all the, as people would say, rock stars

522
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:30,840
or whatever.

523
00:30:31,100 --> 00:30:36,320
And, and in fact, you want to have some people who are these T I'm, I'm putting these terms

524
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:40,920
into, into air quotes to kind of prove the point who are these ninjas or rock stars or

525
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,860
whatever, but a very, you want to have a very small amount of those.

526
00:30:43,860 --> 00:30:49,020
And you just want to have like regular people on the team as well, because as you get successful

527
00:30:49,020 --> 00:30:54,460
with your initial projects, you want to eliminate the, uh, the counter argument for when you want

528
00:30:54,500 --> 00:30:58,540
to scale it up and spread to the rest of the organization that like, well, sure.

529
00:30:58,540 --> 00:31:00,700
If we had a team of rock stars, we could do that.

530
00:31:00,700 --> 00:31:05,580
But we just have these normals, uh, which both of those are kind of poor ways of thinking

531
00:31:05,580 --> 00:31:10,700
about people, but it's a good point that you want to not overskill your initial teams so

532
00:31:10,700 --> 00:31:15,200
that it's believable that it's possible to scale the, uh, the teams out.

533
00:31:16,140 --> 00:31:18,100
So there's some poking at myself there.

534
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:19,240
There you go.

535
00:31:20,180 --> 00:31:20,740
All right.

536
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:21,380
So what's mine.

537
00:31:21,620 --> 00:31:25,020
So the one I was going to, you know, I'm actually talking about this week with some customers

538
00:31:25,020 --> 00:31:28,980
in person, but we got that question of like, how do you know you're actually getting better

539
00:31:28,980 --> 00:31:29,560
at this?

540
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,280
It's just not, I mean, to you, what we just talked about with, you know, people pairing

541
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,540
and getting back to work and kind of working in these new units, you know, how does that

542
00:31:37,540 --> 00:31:41,300
CIO go back after the next year and go, Hey, we just doubled our IT budget.

543
00:31:41,300 --> 00:31:42,100
It wasn't worth it.

544
00:31:42,740 --> 00:31:46,600
And I actually spent way too much time going through analyst research on this.

545
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:51,320
And it's surprisingly light in terms of like analysts saying like, Hey, here's some hard

546
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,820
metrics, not just like, Hey, it should be, you know, throughput's a little better, like,

547
00:31:55,860 --> 00:32:00,100
you know, outcomes, but very not much that you could checklist and say, okay, here's five

548
00:32:00,100 --> 00:32:01,180
metrics I care about.

549
00:32:01,660 --> 00:32:03,980
So pivotal does, I think a pretty good job on that.

550
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:09,400
We talk about delivery speed and patch windows and how quick you're patching and improving

551
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:10,280
cycle time.

552
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,360
And so there's a number of things we track about how, you know, you're getting better

553
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:18,740
at software, but it's surprisingly not talked about a lot industry wise as I can tell, which

554
00:32:18,740 --> 00:32:23,400
is weird because we're asking companies to spend a fortune more in it than they were before

555
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:28,840
for this hope of like, maybe everyone's happier versus what are those real outcomes and measurable

556
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:29,940
outcomes that you're achieving?

557
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,640
I don't know what you see there, Coté, do you kind of hit on the same things that pivotal

558
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:38,560
likes to talk about, or are you seeing people ask about actually, Hey, prove to me we got

559
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,640
better.

560
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,100
I think, I think that, uh, well, there's two things.

561
00:32:43,180 --> 00:32:51,060
One, you let's, let's, let's, let's incorrectly call this metrics, like, like management metrics,

562
00:32:51,060 --> 00:32:53,960
like how, like you say, like, how do I know this is working?

563
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:58,880
And, and then, and then the part of the problem with calling it metrics is it gets lumped into

564
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,000
project management metrics.

565
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,760
And so a lot of the times when this question is asked, it's like, Oh, we're going to do all

566
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,420
this crazy agile cloud native DevOps stuff.

567
00:33:07,420 --> 00:33:09,700
Like what metrics do I track?

568
00:33:09,900 --> 00:33:15,000
And I think the way you phrase it is more of the, uh, the right question.

569
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,620
I try to always avoid being the person who's like, that's the wrong question to be asking.

570
00:33:19,620 --> 00:33:21,920
Now, let me enlighten you with the right question.

571
00:33:22,260 --> 00:33:25,080
Cause that I find that annoying when it happens to me.

572
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,440
I'm always like, I don't care if it's the wrong question.

573
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:31,080
Why don't you first give me the answer and then not talk after that.

574
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:37,120
But anyways, uh, yeah, it is, it is a question of like, how do we know this is working and

575
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,300
that we're getting better, uh, and that we're improving.

576
00:33:40,300 --> 00:33:45,040
And I think, I don't know, like, like there's all sorts of, the problem is you, it's easy

577
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:50,060
to derive these metrics of like what your, uh, your lead time is, or like, you know, how,

578
00:33:50,060 --> 00:33:56,880
how frequently you can deploy and how, how, um, what your, um, what your failure rate is.

579
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:01,540
And, and then of course, like if you're all like new age operations person, who cares what

580
00:34:01,540 --> 00:34:05,920
the failure rate is, what matters is how fast you recover from the failure rate, but all

581
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:10,020
of those things kind of to your point, like it just begs the question of like, well, in

582
00:34:10,020 --> 00:34:16,120
the service of what, and I think, I think that's why this answer doesn't exist very much because

583
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:21,240
more or less every single, maybe not every single application, but pretty much every organization

584
00:34:21,240 --> 00:34:23,380
has a different question, answer to that.

585
00:34:23,380 --> 00:34:23,660
Right.

586
00:34:23,660 --> 00:34:28,780
And cause like, if you're a business, it's like in the service of making money.

587
00:34:29,580 --> 00:34:30,020
Right.

588
00:34:30,020 --> 00:34:34,500
And so like, whatever it is, your software process is, if you're happy with the business

589
00:34:34,500 --> 00:34:38,160
results you have, your software process is working well.

590
00:34:38,700 --> 00:34:43,540
And, and it's only like, it's only working poorly if for some reason you don't get good,

591
00:34:43,540 --> 00:34:45,800
uh, business results on the, on the other end.

592
00:34:45,820 --> 00:34:48,800
And, and similarly, like government's a little different, right?

593
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:54,140
Like in that case, it's usually about, uh, well, two things, one of them is sort of like

594
00:34:54,140 --> 00:35:01,120
the, uh, optimistic thing, which is how well are we satisfying whatever mission or process

595
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:01,880
that we have?

596
00:35:02,300 --> 00:35:07,600
Like, uh, you know, in immigration, you have like case management and how, how well are

597
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:09,720
we solving case management problems?

598
00:35:09,720 --> 00:35:11,680
Does it, is it really quick or really slow?

599
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,020
Um, and it's in our software helping with that.

600
00:35:14,020 --> 00:35:17,920
And then in other part, you know, the other, the other thing that government people always

601
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,900
want is, is they always put it to, to a person, they put it this way.

602
00:35:21,900 --> 00:35:24,560
They say, I don't want to be in front of Congress.

603
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:33,060
And so, so, so that's the other, and, and put, I think, I think in Mark Schwartz's, who

604
00:35:33,060 --> 00:35:40,660
was a CIO of one of the, uh, the immigration bureaus, how he put it was, um, at least, and

605
00:35:40,660 --> 00:35:44,620
I assume it's like this in other governments, but one of the metrics, uh, that's very important

606
00:35:44,620 --> 00:35:48,220
in the U S government is basically accountability and oversight.

607
00:35:48,940 --> 00:35:52,840
And in the same way that a business, what's important is making money.

608
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:58,940
What we've decided as a society in the U S is that, and this is me rewording it is we

609
00:35:58,940 --> 00:36:00,980
basically don't trust government projects.

610
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:05,260
So we always want to make sure that their money is being spent well and there's good

611
00:36:05,260 --> 00:36:05,820
oversight.

612
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,520
And so that's sort of like the first story card we, the citizens always have with the

613
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:15,660
government project is like oversight user would like oversight into the creation of this

614
00:36:15,660 --> 00:36:20,260
software, um, which, you know, that becomes a very real metric.

615
00:36:20,420 --> 00:36:24,440
Like, how do you know, how do you know if you're doing your transformation is doing well?

616
00:36:24,940 --> 00:36:31,620
And it's, it's basically cause we have all this oversight stuff generated, which can seem

617
00:36:31,620 --> 00:36:34,500
terrible, but that's part of the delivery essentially.

618
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:40,140
So that's a, as, as I told the, these French people I gave this answer to the longer my

619
00:36:40,140 --> 00:36:43,160
answer, the less I actually know what the answer is.

620
00:36:44,060 --> 00:36:47,400
Well, I mean, to your point though, how do you, how do you differentiate causality versus

621
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,900
kind of, I don't know, causation, this sort of like, Hey, we got better.

622
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:52,780
So therefore that must mean software got better.

623
00:36:52,780 --> 00:36:56,300
Like, I don't know, maybe you just hit a hit product and your it is still a disaster.

624
00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:02,120
So how did I actually attribute our change in software to actual better business outcomes?

625
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:04,360
There's no way to say, there's no perfect equation.

626
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:09,160
It's just, it doesn't feel like we put enough discipline into linking those two things.

627
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,980
And people, again, I think with value stream mapping and a number of other things we do are

628
00:37:12,980 --> 00:37:16,080
trying to help that the only thing that really matters is outcomes here.

629
00:37:16,260 --> 00:37:18,700
Technology is a, a means to an end.

630
00:37:18,980 --> 00:37:20,120
So I don't know.

631
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,220
I like that people are asking those questions.

632
00:37:22,300 --> 00:37:24,660
That's why I put it on the list as we're seeing that asked more and more.

633
00:37:24,660 --> 00:37:27,860
I think we can all as an industry do a lot better at actually tying this together.

634
00:37:28,420 --> 00:37:28,440
Yeah.

635
00:37:28,580 --> 00:37:33,040
That reminds me of another Mark Schwartz thing where he was saying, um, you know, in this

636
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:39,280
realm we're talking about of causation, it is in one of the most precarious positions as

637
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:48,280
far as like blame storming in the sense that if the business side is not doing well or, or

638
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:52,800
their ideas were bad or business execute is, is, is business execution is bad.

639
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:58,000
No amount of awesomeness on the it side is going to make up for the fact that the business

640
00:37:58,000 --> 00:37:58,440
fails.

641
00:37:58,660 --> 00:38:04,840
And then it's easy to sort of like scapegoat to it and be like, Oh, those it people, they

642
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,680
were like late or, you know, this thing happened or whatever.

643
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:13,320
And so it is, uh, it's kind of that reverse halo effect that if things go poorly, everyone

644
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:19,140
assumes that, uh, you were doing things wrong when in fact, you know, maybe it was just a

645
00:38:19,140 --> 00:38:27,080
bad idea to, uh, you know, I don't know, airlift oatmeal to like the, you know, the, uh, where

646
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:32,380
am I going with this to have a business that like airlifts hot made French oatmeal to the

647
00:38:32,380 --> 00:38:32,660
Arctic.

648
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:37,080
Like that was just a bad idea, even though you could, even though you could put in multiple

649
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,360
release features every day and, uh, you could do that well.

650
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,480
So that, uh, that becomes a little dicey there.

651
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:44,200
All right.

652
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:50,140
Well, uh, another question that I get, uh, frequently is, um, this is another one that

653
00:38:50,140 --> 00:38:53,960
doesn't have a good answer, but I always like the ones that, uh, the answer to the question

654
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,780
are basically like, yes, you're right.

655
00:38:57,260 --> 00:38:59,960
This is hard, which is a good example of this.

656
00:38:59,960 --> 00:39:04,780
Like I remember, I was talking with a, um, uh, what were they like, uh, like a healthcare

657
00:39:04,780 --> 00:39:06,840
related company, uh, a while ago.

658
00:39:07,340 --> 00:39:11,440
And, uh, I, I had given my talk as I often do, or pretty much always do.

659
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:17,580
And then one of the questions afterwards was, uh, it was from what seemed like a very cheerful,

660
00:39:17,580 --> 00:39:21,580
but sort of like somewhat beleaguered project manager.

661
00:39:21,900 --> 00:39:28,260
And they were saying, all right, well, I have this project that we have to deliver by, I'm

662
00:39:28,260 --> 00:39:31,660
making up these things by October, uh, 2019.

663
00:39:32,540 --> 00:39:39,820
And it involves integrating five backend data sources, you know, two of which are on a main

664
00:39:39,820 --> 00:39:41,960
frame and no one remembers how to do the COBOL.

665
00:39:42,460 --> 00:39:47,840
And, uh, and then, and then also we have to work with a brand new mobile application.

666
00:39:48,180 --> 00:39:52,160
And then also we need to integrate with our ERP, uh, service.

667
00:39:52,300 --> 00:39:56,340
And then we also have like a third party that's doing something on top of that.

668
00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:00,040
So how would I apply all this cloud native stuff?

669
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:05,880
And, and like, this is, you know, I kind of amalgamated a bunch of those, those questions

670
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:06,300
in there.

671
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,320
Um, and I don't know, this is a question that comes up every now and then, and like I was

672
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:15,620
alluding to, oftentimes the answer to this is like, the short answer is like, yep, well,

673
00:40:15,620 --> 00:40:16,980
it sounds like you're doing the right thing.

674
00:40:17,980 --> 00:40:22,020
That's just like, that's a crazy complicated project.

675
00:40:22,740 --> 00:40:27,780
And there's complicated projects with huge dependencies and teams that are not all behaving

676
00:40:27,780 --> 00:40:28,340
the same.

677
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:34,880
And you don't have like the two to three years it would take to get them all on board and

678
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:38,180
all acting the same way and get your balance team.

679
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:43,440
So you're going to have to spend a lot of time like managing the dependencies and doing all

680
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:43,820
of that.

681
00:40:43,820 --> 00:40:50,940
And of course the sort of fallback from that is, you know, you still want to, uh, look at

682
00:40:50,940 --> 00:40:56,120
all the various parties and teams involved and figure out where you can do things in a more

683
00:40:56,120 --> 00:41:02,160
like, uh, you know, agile devopsy cloud native way where you can have those, those balanced

684
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:06,540
teams working with each other and be deploying multiple times a week and things like that and

685
00:41:06,540 --> 00:41:07,760
how they integrate with each other.

686
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:14,380
But I think especially in, well, yeah, especially in large organizations, this problem comes up

687
00:41:14,380 --> 00:41:22,300
and it's also, I think it points to, uh, the need to still have people who are product man,

688
00:41:22,340 --> 00:41:26,300
project managers and enterprise architects and all these overseeing roles.

689
00:41:26,300 --> 00:41:32,000
And I think, I think what should be happening with those roles is not that they don't do

690
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:36,780
this necessarily, but they have to be a lot more active in managing and programming that

691
00:41:36,780 --> 00:41:42,240
overall process than just tracking, than only tracking what the status is and, you know,

692
00:41:42,300 --> 00:41:43,380
wrangling up all the meetings.

693
00:41:43,380 --> 00:41:46,640
There's a lot more, uh, getting your hands dirty to run things there.

694
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:53,220
But I get, that's why I think in large organizations, management and all these ancillary things to

695
00:41:53,220 --> 00:41:57,860
the actual product teams are, uh, more or less as important as they've ever been.

696
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:03,120
They, they just need to bring on a new type of, uh, of, of thinking about programming the

697
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,520
organization than, than they, they usually have.

698
00:42:06,180 --> 00:42:06,540
Yeah.

699
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:07,580
That's a good one.

700
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:09,820
I mean, if everything was greenfield, life would be too easy.

701
00:42:09,820 --> 00:42:14,460
So in this case, you, you think about horror, you know, how do you do vertical slicing across

702
00:42:14,460 --> 00:42:16,640
these systems and ship incremental value?

703
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:20,760
And there's at least some patterns for how you modernize and how you decompose these kind

704
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:21,600
of giant systems.

705
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:23,740
But yeah, no, there's no easy button there.

706
00:42:23,940 --> 00:42:24,220
Yeah.

707
00:42:24,300 --> 00:42:24,440
Yeah.

708
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:29,360
You know, you can't just sort of say like strangler pattern and then leave the room in a puff of

709
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:29,700
smoke.

710
00:42:30,100 --> 00:42:34,100
I just, I think of that Homer Simpson animated GIF where he just walks back into the bush and

711
00:42:34,100 --> 00:42:35,340
just kind of just, exactly.

712
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:37,780
I don't want to even focus on this.

713
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:38,860
Let me just step away.

714
00:42:39,020 --> 00:42:39,320
Yep.

715
00:42:39,380 --> 00:42:39,620
Yep.

716
00:42:39,620 --> 00:42:40,040
That's right.

717
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:44,180
And then the one, the one where a grandpa walks in and puts his hat on the hat rack

718
00:42:44,180 --> 00:42:47,920
and then sees, I guess, Bart there and then picks his hat and then walks right back out.

719
00:42:49,260 --> 00:42:49,620
Yep.

720
00:42:50,260 --> 00:42:50,780
That's great.

721
00:42:50,820 --> 00:42:52,240
We could just do a whole podcast of Simpson.

722
00:42:52,240 --> 00:42:55,760
I think, I think we've just come up with a good ignite presentation right there.

723
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:57,300
A good little five minute talk.

724
00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:58,160
That's perfect.

725
00:42:59,260 --> 00:42:59,620
Perfect.

726
00:42:59,780 --> 00:43:04,100
So yeah, my other one I thought I'd ask is, you know, or I get asked a fair bit, especially

727
00:43:04,100 --> 00:43:09,180
in my marketing role is, Hey, can you give us a summary of customers in industry X?

728
00:43:09,860 --> 00:43:12,200
That does come up all the time.

729
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:16,420
And what's interesting is I want to ensure we have, I mean, Pivotal has some, some enviable

730
00:43:16,420 --> 00:43:21,240
case studies across virtually just every vertical you can come up with, but, and you see this

731
00:43:21,240 --> 00:43:21,860
as well.

732
00:43:21,900 --> 00:43:25,860
And I think I see this in our user group is that like people are breaking out of their

733
00:43:25,860 --> 00:43:26,240
vertical.

734
00:43:26,240 --> 00:43:30,500
Like it's not like insurance people all hang out, but you'll hear, you know, a Home Depot

735
00:43:30,500 --> 00:43:34,740
talks to Allstate who talks to a media company who talks to a telco who talks to a government

736
00:43:34,740 --> 00:43:40,960
and that, you know, everyone is solving different scenarios in a lot of the same way.

737
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:44,220
So if you're a bank and you're worried about data privacy, you know what?

738
00:43:44,260 --> 00:43:47,460
The same scenario may be applicable in a retail environment.

739
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:47,720
Yes.

740
00:43:47,780 --> 00:43:52,820
The stakes may be a little different, but I'm seeing more common solution patterns that span

741
00:43:52,820 --> 00:43:57,260
verticals, which I think is great when you have kind of tech web companies who can share

742
00:43:57,260 --> 00:43:58,520
information with the government.

743
00:43:58,700 --> 00:44:00,220
Like that's really exciting stuff.

744
00:44:00,340 --> 00:44:04,360
So while we'll answer it industry by industry, I actually like more and more when we just

745
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:08,440
point out, here's the scenario you're solving around mobile app development or streaming

746
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:14,620
data analysis or, you know, secure data transfer across boundaries, whatever those problems are.

747
00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:15,420
I'd like that.

748
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:16,860
We're actually spanning industries more.

749
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:19,940
So I prefer we do that versus just, here's a great banking story.

750
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:21,960
Yeah, no, I think that's a good one.

751
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:23,260
Cause that does come up all the time.

752
00:44:23,260 --> 00:44:28,940
And I have to maybe breaking my rule of telling people they're asking the wrong question.

753
00:44:30,260 --> 00:44:34,560
Like, you know, obviously it's good to answer with like, here's, here's how people in your

754
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:35,580
industry have done stuff.

755
00:44:35,580 --> 00:44:41,440
But kind of like you're saying, my observation has been that it's when you, when you're doing

756
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:46,080
your, your software development and whatever you call that, your, your life cycle stuff,

757
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:51,860
like every organization kind of has the same problems, like, and, and, and the same thing.

758
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:56,400
So like you're saying, like everyone needs to securely transmit data from, or data from point

759
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:57,160
A to point B.

760
00:44:57,680 --> 00:44:59,860
It doesn't really matter what industry you're in.

761
00:44:59,860 --> 00:45:04,520
Like you might be in some, you know, in the military and have some exotically named like

762
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:09,820
standard you have to satisfy, but you look through that and it's basically like, don't do dumb

763
00:45:09,820 --> 00:45:10,240
stuff.

764
00:45:11,740 --> 00:45:17,380
So there might be like specific things you need to apply to, but I find that like, uh, I don't

765
00:45:17,380 --> 00:45:20,680
know, like the problems that people have are pretty universal.

766
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:22,820
And again, there's some, there's some edge cases.

767
00:45:22,820 --> 00:45:27,800
Like if you're doing industrial equipment, then there's some things that are a little different

768
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:31,780
about your, uh, your internet of things stuff and things like that.

769
00:45:31,780 --> 00:45:34,880
But yeah, they all, uh, they all are kind of the same.

770
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:37,840
And it reminds me of two or at least one anecdote.

771
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:42,900
I luckily, I don't remember who this is because I'm sure they didn't want their, their name

772
00:45:42,900 --> 00:45:43,420
used or whatever.

773
00:45:43,420 --> 00:45:48,000
But I remember there was one, one organization we were talking with and, uh, we kept telling

774
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,160
them about people in their industry.

775
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:54,160
Of course, who are all our customers and how they were six, you know, how they were succeeding

776
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:54,560
with us.

777
00:45:54,620 --> 00:45:58,240
And therefore, because your industry peers are doing this, you should be doing it.

778
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:03,040
And I remember the, the person cleverly replied, like, I don't want to know what my peers are

779
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:08,280
doing because I'm trying to like compete with all the other companies who are like trying to

780
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:10,340
disrupt our industry and enter our industry.

781
00:46:10,340 --> 00:46:15,460
So I want to know what, you know, all the, the four and the FANG people and all these interesting

782
00:46:15,460 --> 00:46:19,200
new companies who are approaching our business with, with the tech bases are doing.

783
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:24,580
Cause if I was just competing with the people in my industry, that's not going to do anything.

784
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:27,340
Like I have to come up with something brand new.

785
00:46:28,340 --> 00:46:30,900
No, I mean, you get inspiration from all kinds of places.

786
00:46:30,900 --> 00:46:34,420
So I'm glad folks are inspiring each other across, across business types.

787
00:46:35,260 --> 00:46:40,300
So, so then the last one that I'll go over, uh, is, uh, so another thing that comes up all

788
00:46:40,300 --> 00:46:45,560
the time is, uh, and, and this is admittedly one I should probably, uh, research more.

789
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:50,880
Maybe we should get like, uh, Elizabeth on who's written several books on QA to talk about

790
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:57,460
this, but I'm often asked by QA people, what, what happens to QA?

791
00:46:57,460 --> 00:47:03,220
Uh, and when you have like this, uh, this sort of, you know, balanced team with all the roles,

792
00:47:03,220 --> 00:47:09,420
the designer and the, uh, the, the developers and the product manager, uh, where, where the

793
00:47:09,420 --> 00:47:15,100
role of, of QA goes to, and I guess they're kind of like leading the witness by saying goes

794
00:47:15,100 --> 00:47:21,540
to, um, and I think, I think the, the, what I generally see, and then, and like I said,

795
00:47:21,540 --> 00:47:25,640
I need to figure out a lot more what actually happens and talk with more people on this.

796
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:32,240
But the first thing that I noticed is that one, just like you expect your system administrators

797
00:47:32,240 --> 00:47:38,300
to actually start programming more, uh, like the QA people, the expectation is that if they're

798
00:47:38,300 --> 00:47:43,720
not already programming a lot to, to run their tests and maybe even instrument things in the

799
00:47:43,720 --> 00:47:48,300
application, so it's easier tested, more easily testable and make sure that their builds and

800
00:47:48,300 --> 00:47:53,360
continue or continuous integration, uh, have testing, then that's probably a good skill for

801
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:54,480
QA people to pick up.

802
00:47:54,860 --> 00:47:58,900
I mean, and that's, that's sort of like the, I don't know.

803
00:47:58,940 --> 00:48:03,880
I feel like that's the ultimate end game for a lot of what happens on these product teams

804
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:07,260
is it's not so much that everyone becomes a programmer.

805
00:48:07,620 --> 00:48:13,720
It's that everyone is familiar with all of the types of work needed to do on, on the, uh,

806
00:48:13,720 --> 00:48:14,640
on, on the product.

807
00:48:14,720 --> 00:48:18,920
So you sort of shift more towards being a generalist than a specialist.

808
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:24,220
And so a consequence of that is for programmers is you should probably know how production works

809
00:48:24,220 --> 00:48:25,680
and operations a lot more.

810
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:29,880
And a consequence for QA people is you should probably know how to program a little bit

811
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:30,140
more.

812
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:35,560
Um, so that, that tends to happen or, or, you know, I sort of hear about that happening.

813
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:40,400
And then the other thing that it's sort of like my dealing with grumpy people, like it's

814
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:47,000
always been my observation, uh, when I was a programmer that the, the people who know the

815
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:49,560
software, the best are often the QA people.

816
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:54,260
Cause they usually have been there the longest cause they're not like these flighty, like

817
00:48:54,260 --> 00:48:56,480
developers who are always just bouncing around.

818
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:01,440
Uh, and they usually have been through the, the software for several release cycles.

819
00:49:01,540 --> 00:49:06,360
And then also it's their job to know exactly everything about how the software is supposed

820
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:12,520
to operate and, and therefore like what, what users will be doing it and understand it.

821
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:18,540
And so they often have like a huge trove of knowledge, just sort of that, uh, what do you

822
00:49:18,540 --> 00:49:19,500
call that kind of knowledge?

823
00:49:19,500 --> 00:49:23,160
Not, not tribal knowledge, but I guess that's a metaphor for institutional knowledge.

824
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:23,680
There you go.

825
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:27,280
They have, they have excellent institutional knowledge about the software, which is definitely

826
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,360
you don't want to, uh, lose out on.

827
00:49:29,460 --> 00:49:33,520
And then, you know, the product manager of the team and the designers would probably find

828
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:38,740
them extremely useful to talk to about what the software does, who the users are and things

829
00:49:38,740 --> 00:49:39,280
like that.

830
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:42,140
That's where we don't want to be lazy with these DevOps definitions.

831
00:49:42,140 --> 00:49:46,480
It's not saying get rid of QA or get, you know, make every tester a programmer or make

832
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:51,460
lots of people learn, I mean, I can say it's more about awareness and like the QA skillset

833
00:49:51,460 --> 00:49:52,360
is super important.

834
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:54,580
And Jeff Sussner wrote a great book on quality.

835
00:49:54,700 --> 00:49:58,160
And a lot of times this is just about making QA people raise their game a little bit to

836
00:49:58,160 --> 00:49:59,440
focus on total quality.

837
00:49:59,940 --> 00:50:01,260
And so you do need more awareness.

838
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:05,400
You're thinking not just how do I write the 400 page test spec, but how am I making sure

839
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:09,240
the customer experience is great as it spans all the different components?

840
00:50:09,240 --> 00:50:14,100
And I still need that skill on my team, even if developers are also maybe pairing with them

841
00:50:14,100 --> 00:50:16,480
and doing unit testing together or integration testing.

842
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:19,600
So again, we were not trying to destroy every specialist skill.

843
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:21,800
You're just saying you need some generalist ability as well.

844
00:50:22,180 --> 00:50:22,880
Yeah, absolutely.

845
00:50:23,380 --> 00:50:25,520
Well, uh, I, I think, I think that's good.

846
00:50:25,580 --> 00:50:29,000
Those are some, uh, I like, I like the, uh, the questions you had there.

847
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:33,560
Those, those are good ones to think about, especially, especially the, uh, tell me more about

848
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:34,760
people in my industry.

849
00:50:35,180 --> 00:50:36,560
That's, that's always a fun one.

850
00:50:36,940 --> 00:50:39,400
So, uh, well, as always, thanks for listening.

851
00:50:39,580 --> 00:50:41,080
This has been Pivotal Conversations.

852
00:50:41,420 --> 00:50:47,180
If you want to, uh, find this episode and, uh, see all of our wonderful back catalog of

853
00:50:47,180 --> 00:50:47,520
things.

854
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:51,860
I mean, you know, Springs here, you might going to be spending more time outside, need some

855
00:50:51,860 --> 00:50:56,480
stuff to stick in your ears as you jog around, or maybe you bicycle, or maybe you're like

856
00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:59,920
me and you don't do anything, but you still want to listen to stuff.

857
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:05,960
You can go to sound, you can go to soundcloud.com slash Pivotal Conversations and find the RSS

858
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:07,980
feed there and, you know, all that stuff.

859
00:51:08,060 --> 00:51:13,980
And then also every, uh, Thursday, usually we will, we post the full show notes over at,

860
00:51:13,980 --> 00:51:16,220
uh, pivotal.io slash podcast.

861
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:19,680
And I'll put links to all the, uh, the stuff that we mentioned over there.

862
00:51:20,180 --> 00:51:24,320
Uh, and you know, hopefully we'll, we'll see you at one of those SpringOne tours, or,

863
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:26,580
or at least we'll talk to you next time.

864
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:27,380
Bye-bye.