Kubernetes, Serverless, and DevOps, with Paul ”Czarkernetes” Czarkowski (Ep. 94)

Episode 79 · 37:22 · SRT · archive.org · all Tanzu Talk

you were in singapore recently now i noticed that you had a singapore sling what makes it a sling versus just like whatever else i actually have no idea it was i believe rum and a bunch of like pineapple and stuff um so it's kind of tropical i guess which singapore being near that thing that goes around the middle of the earth equator i guess that makes it uh so uh it was quite quite refreshing on a hot humid day and then so what's what's your assessment of the year what's your assessment of the food situation over there uh so the street food like the hawker centers definitely up there uh there's this pretty amazing uh set of gardens right near the uh the harbor sands that massive crazy hotel with the three towers and the uh thing across the top uh there's these beautiful gardens right near there and towards the back of it they have like a a satay place which is like a dozen different little satay uh focus all trying to sell you their satays which mostly look the same uh and so going there and just eating like like 20 bucks of satays which is a ridiculous number of satays is uh a lot of fun now no no what what is what is what is a is is saute like like the way you would saute onions or is this something different oh it's uh saute even s-a-t-a-y which is like a meat on a stick with uh you know a bunch of seasoning and stuff on it oh right cook that cook that over charcoal hmm man that does sound good what kind of sauce do you put on that uh that is a good question it was kind of a spicy meat maybe peanutty something inside of my brain wants to tell me it was peanutty um sauce that you kind of just dipped into or bought over the top ostensibly as you know we invited you

here to talk about kubernetes but i'm pretty sure we're gonna go the whole show talking about singapore food so we can we can scrap the show notes that's fine with me well joking aside i think he had us at meat up meat on a stick i think that was what really triggered meat on a stick that's right it's not just for germans anymore it's it's a global phenomena so why don't you introduce yourself sure my name is paul tchaikovsky and i'm a advocate at pivotal uh so i work alongside you michael uh under our benevolent dictator uh andrew schaefer mm-hmm i think i think most recently uh we were we were trying to do some research to advocate uh conveyor belt sushi which i can advocate not only to developers but others as well it's it's it's a good good uh good thing to check into uh let's go over a few news items feel free to uh you know when you're not thinking about meat on a stick or peanutty sauce to you know jump in if you want to uh paul but first of all uh it was like it was like earnings last week as i recall and i think there's a few more trickling out like i saw that new relic has turned a non-gap as it were uh profit which is fun or as people confusingly call it operating revenue those accountants need to get together and be like revenue is always revenue and then profit is always profit no matter what weird word we put in front of it but whatever i should worry about other things but uh it looks like uh amazon and and uh google and microsoft all all these people are doing pretty well in their their cloud division yeah good summary everyone's making lots of money hand over fist amazon uh and they keep hiring like crazy i think they added another 25 000 people this is amazon as a whole not aws but i think they're up to 560 something thousand people one of the largest private companies in the world at this point are non-government companies i should say so they're growing making more money aws seems to be driving a lot of that uh google i think said they crossed a billion dollars for quarterly revenue something like that for cloud but they also do the kind of weird everything's lumped in with cloud number it's hard to tell between you know google docs and cloud

stuff and then you know microsoft azure had like 98 growth so they're all doing great and then alibaba just came out with theirs and they were at like 500 million dollars either a quarter and like that's there a lot of people seem to think they're the leading firms of the mega clouds and it'll be fun to watch that yeah you know that would be an interesting metric to start watching uh in addition you know one of the the proxies for cloud that people like to watch is uh capital expenditures which probably mostly makes sense for those three and in until as long as amazon breaks out whole food separately and they don't open more retail stores then you know what else are they spending money on than than computers and and whatever those uh plant pods are i guess but those probably are pretty cheap compared to uh a cloud but uh looking at hiring people is is interesting as well which i mean i guess you would want to look at you know sort of weighted by the salary that they get to see what what the uh what the job is but that that would be interesting to uh see how that's working out uh so and then also the uh uh the the cloud foundry summit north america their their schedule was announced i think i think i was told that there was a huge response a great uh response so sadly i will not be speaking there which is fine i don't think i sent them a very compelling abstract but what what have you have you combed over the schedule what what does it look like that they'll be talking about this year yeah a couple highlights it's of course including they did accept my talk which i guess is a blessing and a curse on one hand it means i have i get to talk on the other hand it means i have to prepare a talk so that's uh that'll be fun but you know the keynotes uh got announced there's some folks from google like kelsey hightower and gabe from microsoft and a couple other customers like media but uh the thing of note i found interesting is pivotal did sponsor a.net track so we've got all sorts of talks from customers and microsoft themselves and uh um some other vendors kind of covering just.net in cloud foundry you know what does it mean to do cloud native.net and so excited to see that coming more to to pcf the cloud foundry just kind of opening this up to more

developers that maybe traditionally have paid attention to this now now is your talk going to be on uh.net i know i know you're big.net fan i know that's why i went against uh type so it's a java and azure talk whoa the guy who leads java on azure at microsoft so now i don't want to expose richard too much but but paul some people when they put together a talk they just sort of write an abstract and then they do they work on the talk later what is your method for doing a talk do you completely rehearse the talk and then do an abstract and with the confidence that you could give it do you submit it to people what's what's the order of operations i usually just throw a bunch of words down on a in like notepad.exe or whatever it is whatever you have at hand and uh and copy and paste that somewhere maybe ask someone to have a quick look over it and make sure i'm not crazy yeah uh and i sort of i'll try i'll try and build like three or four of those that seem somewhat interesting to me and then i'll spread them around and if someone bites then i'm like oh i guess i better write this and i get busy writing it and you go through that high low thing of like i know what i'm doing oh this is all terrible i'm going to rewrite it blah blah blah and eventually come up with something that's possible as a talk that you don't get booed at yeah i i like i like the we we should call that the uh the notepad.exe method i think i think that's that's always a good start because you know it was just uh i think just last week there was uh if if you uh remember uh ashley mcnarma who worked here for about three days as i recall she was uh she was tweeting that someone was asking about you know putting together cfps and worrying about it and i think i think that really is the secret is like there's really no uh there's no secrets just like you just throw stuff together and uh and and do something i replied to hers on that because something bridget taught me is that you actually just start the year by writing three or four abstracts of talks you want to do and those are the ones you just throw at every conference and ideally you actually have some thoughts behind them but just instead of just freezing like a deer in the headlights when you see a cfp you can just pick

one of the talks you think are fun that you came up with already so that doesn't mean you've actually done the talk yet but at least you've got a you know at least a skeleton in place i got i got that same advice from uh like john willis a while ago or maybe it was this guy chris dancy the most internet connected man on the face of the planet according to the swedes and esquire magazine uh but that that is good to sort of just like uh set yourself up for it it's also good to make sure at least one of those can kind of be adapted for different audiences so you know it might be say you're doing a talk about kubernetes if you do it in a way that you could turn it into like focused on like php developers or devops or you know cloud foundry but have the same basic core of talk and just kind of change some of the targeting then you can kind of easily tweak that talk a little bit and give it to a bunch of different places that uh are quite buried in like who would attend and what they would be interested in yeah you know maybe that's that's a good tip for me is i should uh i should wrap my uh my my abstract in sheep's clothing when it when it's going into in a situation make it make it a little more targeted there was another good piece of advice there about uh i mean you know like all good pieces of advice once you type it out it seems uh obvious but it was like figure out figure out the themes of the conference and write it to that which uh which is which is pretty good well just a couple more things and then we'll get on to uh speaking of tailoring your message to audiences to to kubernetes but that said cfp talks always good because i think uh i and everyone else like uh you know i would encourage people to go speak at conferences like uh there's there's uh there's plenty of them to go talk to and chances are you have something interesting to say if if you just work on it because in this space everything's always uh going crazy and changing and evolving and uh as we'll get to once we're done with the news but there's always something new to talk about if you have some

expertise in it because just like in doing a cfp we're all just trying to figure it out so uh there's that so there's your little cfp interlude so uh speaking of new things there's a new version of spring cloud data flow out version 1.3 what's what's in this release richard yeah i pointed this one out just because it was a giant release and it was open source as well as the the pcf version is going to be coming out uh any day now so people who use pcf so keep an keep an eye out for that but those the big changes were and again for people who don't remember spring cloud data flow is the way you build kind of data pipelines made up of spring boot apps so you know take in some data from amazon s3 maybe filter it maybe do some comparison with other data then drop it into a database so build that up as a set of apps and then connect them all and so a lot of good changes here one of the big ones is you can do continuous delivery of some of the components so you could decide to say hey let's update this version of this one piece of the pipeline without redeploying the whole pipeline let's just update this one thing so that's really cool that you could keep updating individual pieces without interrupting the flow uh some uyi changes usability changes they added some more of these connector apps so if you want to be able to talk to other endpoints like tensorflow or mqtt which is an iot friendly protocol or things like that so just some really cool stuff spring cloud function is supported now for for functions and some of these activities so it was a it was a nice release and then keep your eye out for the pcf version where pcf actually manages data flow for you uh here in the coming days workflow and data management otherwise known as anywhere from 60 to 90 percent of all enterprise software right that's right i'm sure there's some things that fall out of the domain but uh as when this comes up as as i'm always fond of saying the uh getting some input of a decision to be made having a bunch of people figure out what to do and then outputting some some decision that causes money to be lost or made or customers retained or fulfilling some promise you made to them you know sounds like business so that's uh

that's that's that's why that's that's why it's always interesting to see uh how that's used and update so just one other thing uh it's more of a go check it out so in the continuing uh you know ironically with with three uh three white guys talking about it but in the continuing thing to get more diversity into our our tech world there's there's a new book out called uh bro tofia fantastic title there and there's an excerpt from it i think it's over in bloomberg uh kind of going over uh a history of uh early hiring of of women in executive positions at google and and i don't think at facebook but at google but it's a good it's a good sort of historic look about the uh how how gender gets involved in things for good and bad and it reminded me of another book uh i'll put a link to it in the uh the show notes which will be at pivotal.io slash podcast um but it reminded me of another book if you like academic writing i probably mentioned it here before called uh programmed inequality which is a similar historic study going all the back to all the way back to world war ii i think about the uh the role of women in computing and how i think maybe starting in the late 60s they were uh sort of weeded out and how that uh you know it's not like we think of britain as a source of awesome computers uh no offense or anything but it makes a pretty good case of how in the government that was obviously harmful and uh hurt industry to some extent so those are two good uh studies to have in your back pocket there so uh i think i think how how long ago did you start working here paul it was uh the end of last year sometime just a few months yeah it was like uh early november i think i uh joined on hmm that's right so so but before that i mean but give us a background of of what uh what what you've been working on we're going way back i come from a sysadmin background uh got my started doing like isp stuff and then you know late 90s like a lot of folks kind of it now age group uh ended up doing this whole devops thing uh because i had a lot of service it needed to be configured very fast and a good way to do that and so i did the whole devops thing for a couple of

years uh accidentally got into cloud was doing open stack amazon that sort of stuff and then more recently got into uh kubernetes stuff uh and that's kind of how i ended up where we're at uh but interestingly from differing from a lot of the uh my peers i guess uh i don't come from a development background uh so it's kind of weird to say i'm a developer advocate that's not a developer but that's uh kind of where we're at you know sysadmins are people too they need some hope some advocacy not not just this developer horde running roughshod over them and insulting their shell scripts exactly well well so give it give us a uh you know just a very uh in a helpful way a rudimentary overview of like what kubernetes is now you know i've read several things you got you got your pods and uh your containers and then you got some other stuff but as listeners to my other podcasts will know you know i'm always i'm always uh uh i always enjoy a good refresher on and what's actually in there so just sort of like first of all like what what problem is it solving and then and then when you wind your way through that like how does it solve that for you yeah so i guess uh the problem it's solving is uh somewhere between a paas and ias um so you know you got a paas you're like hey here's some source code run it for me i don't really care how and an ias you're like but can i have a vm and can i have some storage and can i have some networking too please and now i'll sort of wire it all together whereas uh kubernetes you kind of hey here's a here's a container that i've already built from my source code and i want you to run it for me so it's kind of in that in that middle section between the two not quite a paas not quite an ias and and why do you think uh like what would be the motivation for operating in that between the two area like when do you when do you want that much control over something right so you know i think when you're if you're just writing uh a fairly simple you know front end

app you know following all the all the 12 factors and it's cloud native and you don't really need that control you can just say run it for me uh but when you've got something more complicated you know it's not fully cloud native maybe it's an older style uh monolithic app or maybe it's a database like cassandra where it's somewhat cloud native but it you know requires you to have storage somewhere uh kubernetes kind of gives you that uh middle ground where you've sort of got you know in the old way of doing things you'd have to write config management code you'd have to write uh cloud formation you'd have to write scripts to have jenkins deploy all that deploy all those for you in the right order whereas with kubernetes you have you know you have your image and you have a manifest which is a fairly small yaml file which just says hey kubernetes here's my image and this is how we should run it so it saves a lot of typing uh and in theory reduces the chance of uh human error creeping in i think would you say that the kind of like helpfulness of that because i mean i don't know correct me if i'm wrong but it's still the basic sense of uh i have these units of compute like an image or a container or whatever and i want them to group i want to group them together somehow and i would like them to be able to talk to each other um and then they also need like this storage right like i mean those are kind of the primitives of any distributed computing application i don't know you layer in other stuff for more severe security and load balancing and all your wingdings and whatnot but um so so there's like how how does kubernetes achieve making that better than using an iaz like uh and then to lead the witness a little bit like is it because you have less choice or it's better at automation or or like what like what's what's its deal as it were about how it achieves betterness it's designed with a

focus on running applications whereas cloud is designed with a focus on running you know virtual machines or operating systems and so the prim are much more specific to running those applications and wiring those applications together and that kind of i guess that's the to me that's the the big difference when you look at running the environment says going through some of your blog posts and things that you've written in the past about this you know not to be too self-serving but as we look at what we're trying to do with little container service what i mean in general what do you think are some of the operational things though with teams who do set up these environments themselves what kind of things might they not be aware of or whether some sort of things that are really exciting after they've stood up but then there are operational activities or things like that what's the sort of life cycle things that folks might not be aware of when they do these things themselves kubernetes is in itself a fairly complex distributed system um and because of the the resources it has it requires uh you know you need to have some sort of storage somewhere you need to have some sort of networking somewhere there's a lot of things that you need before you can even install kubernetes and a lot of choices you need to make about how you're going to install kubernetes um i you know i i kind of say that if you uh if you attempted to build failed in the past now you can attempt to build and install kubernetes and fail uh it's kind of you know the same thing there's some differences in complexity um but at the end of the day uh it's not necessarily an easy thing to do and unless your business's core competency is running kubernetes just getting to running kubernetes is not really adding any value to you right because you've probably spent six months or more and however much engineering time to try and build this uh platform which you could have just asked someone to give you right i mean you're yourself i think you uh you've written about even deploying applications to these environments thank you you have a example of

your first helm chart i was reading through last night uh so how does the developer push code do you see them typically doing ci sort of processes and not actually using a kubectl sort of command to apply a configuration deploying it using helm charts what do you think or what are you observing as people figure out ways to deploy containers as as apps yeah so you know ideally no one apart from the kubernetes kubernetes administrators would be running kubectl or kubectl commands uh it would be done by some sort of ci system some sort of you know robot that's being taught how to deploy that application and i think probably more common it's gonna it's gonna be running helm or something like helm um to do so because kubernetes manifest themselves are quite static uh they're just a a yaml representation of a data structure and so you can't really do any sort of intelligence there and you know if in staging environment you have one database production environment you have another database you just have straight yaml there's no way to really say okay use that database first use this database and so helm sort of brings that in and gives you that templating ability to say you know in my staging environment here are some of the settings i need to be set first my production environment here are some of the settings i need that need to be set um so i i definitely think that there's there's a progression where you're going to just write kubernetes manifest locally in your laptop and make sure it works with minikube then you're going to be like okay i need to make sure this is actually going to deploy to various environments so you might write uh you might then convert that uh kubernetes manifest into helm charts and then hopefully your ci jenkins or whatever tool people are using these days uh you'll have to do the actual you know helm install helm update commands to actually install and upgrade your applications onto kubernetes so so then uh like i mean uh to you to use uh richard's word obviously we're biased and self-serving but like when when you sort of look at it

evaluating if you were giving people advice about evaluating like which kubernetes thing to use right like it seems like well first of all you'd be like you should be an ops person right like if you're a developer worrying about this then you should ask for more budget to not worry about this if if you have to yeah or or like you know your hobby is fascinating could also be your response um but so if you're talking with sort of like the right people like how what would be the way you like consult with them to to evaluate which one they should use like what are the things that they need and the attributes that they should be looking for and i don't know if you're supposed to say distro in the kubernetes world nowadays but like how would how would how would they come up with a feature matrix to make a decision to make a joke out of the question you know the main thing is to make sure that the kubernetes you get looks and acts like a kubernetes which seems kind of obvious but you know one of the things that were being promised with kubernetes is if you write your kubernetes manifests you should be able to run your application anywhere that supports kubernetes uh and so far like that's proving to be true across the public clouds you know they each each of the major public clouds has a kubernetes distro and they all look and smell like kubernetes and with very very minimal if no differences you can deploy your app to any of them and it just works and so making sure that you have that same portability as you bring you know kubernetes into your own data center i think is the uh probably the key thing um and then also just making sure that they're keeping up with the the fairly you know recent versions kubernetes given how quickly kubernetes is moving and how quickly uh features are coming in that are really table stakes the moment they get into kubernetes uh it's important to know that you know when kubernetes uh 1.9 is out that you'll have uh as quickly as possible kubernetes 1.9 available to you i think you know the gke service uh they're

quite quick at uh making sure that the latest version of kubernetes is available to you and i think it's wise to make sure that uh you don't lag too behind uh what gke and what the communities uh community in general uh is is offering can i ask you without you know no naming names but what are the things you mentioned versioning but what are other things that braid compatibility that you see in the kubernetes world as you say there's lots of distributions there's a lot of people doing things with it so what are those things if i'm a an end user i'd say look this is a layer of the platform where vendors try to differentiate themselves and my app might not move from here to here where do you see those layers where vendors are purposely differentiating by doing things that aren't super portable now i haven't looked too deeply at what uh all the vendors are doing uh so i don't have a great answer for that but i do know that you could make decisions around storage and networking that could make kubernetes behave differently or you know if you if if your vendor was wiring on a bunch of uh you know special source on top of on kubernetes then that special source probably isn't going to be available in gke or aks or whichever other kubernetes uh location you want to go to um so while i don't know specifically what uh a distro might be breaking uh i could see it happening quite easily so so like the the high level things for evaluating are basically like and and i i noticed this in uh following the spaces i forget the exact wording but uh it's always like oh we we have the we we pull the most updated thing and are compatible with it right so the the core of your kubernetes thing basically that seems to be the norm now is that there's no uh specialization of it uh if you will and instead i guess you specialize on the uh at the bread layer not at the uh the meat layer the pastrami sandwich all the same inside and then and then to that end uh i don't know you you tell me but there's a certain amount of months

that you want to have your frequent updates i guess like is you think that's like a three or six month interval or like how frequently should you see that that your uh your distro is providing an update yeah so kubernetes itself does a new minor release every three months and then a bunch of patch releases in the middle uh so i think you know if you were much more than a full release behind i think uh that would be somewhat concerning um and you know i think it's it's okay for your installation to be behind because you know you have to decide when you're going to upgrade your platform but to make sure that wherever you're getting your kubernetes from uh has the ability to deploy the newer versions and upgrade to the newer versions um i think uh one of the big differentiators back in the open stack days was being able to upgrade your uh open stack um very few distributions actually could do in place upgrades of your open stack uh which is kind of a dirty little secret no one talked about so making sure that we don't fall into that same pit in kubernetes is pretty important so being able to upgrade to the new version at any time i think is the important thing that way you can decide uh when and how you can actually do that upgrade and i think a lot of people are going to be running more than one kubernetes uh especially in the in the near term where um kubernetes doesn't have any sort of uh like per user uh authentication without uh integrating something like ldap or uh or whatever uh and that's you know while most people are still trying to figure out how to run kubernetes you know there's still a ways off figuring out if you know the systems they have and so a lot of folks seem to be saying okay well instead of running one big kubernetes um that everyone has access to because we have great you know user

separation maybe we'll run five kubernetes and give each department their own kubernetes or have each environment on their own kubernetes almost multi-tenancy through clustering versus uh sharing the same space exactly yeah exactly and so having that it also becomes very important to be able to uh deploy and operate multiple kubernetes quite easily um you know if if installing one kubernetes takes a week then that's going to be a big barrier entry to be able to run five kubernetes right yeah it's a great point it's nice to have that choice of when you upgrade so you might not upgrade the moment that pivotal or google or whoever update bits but it's nice to have the choice of you you control when it rolls out you're not beholden to the vendor to hopefully catch up after six or eight months so that's a great point so then scurrying behind uh maybe not in a mischievous way but but a fair amount of what you're saying is uh it connects to another interesting trend that i know you and i have sort of like uh talked about a little bit but as you're saying uh if you're a developer you probably shouldn't be running this it's like the operations people who run this so uh like how do you think having something like a kubernetes in place like affects the notion of like a literal notion of like devops like does it mean that there's less of that like maybe you put a space instead of those two words instead of camel casing it or like how does it sort of i don't know do a lot of what devops people would be doing manually on their own it all goes back to and i don't want to get into too much like what the hell even is devops um like to me devops is kind of a practice so if you're following a certain set of you know uh practices then you're doing devops and that could mean that you're developing the code and deploying it and doing whatever or it could mean that you're developing the code and another team is developing the automation and it all comes together um and you could fairly call both of those things devops um so what i think uh we're gonna

see is you're gonna have like a cluster ops team which is kind of a group of your sys admins and software developers that are building running and maintaining your uh platform of which kubernetes is probably a part of uh and then you're gonna have your application teams uh which are again a combination of uh you know your more traditional operations and developers that are going to be focused on using that platform to run their applications paul i want to get your take on i mean we talk about kubernetes here and containers and in some circles it seems like there's a conflict between the people who like containers and the people who like serverless or functions whatever we want to label it at at the moment do you see those things in conflict do you see those things as an evolution do you see this as better together how do you kind of munge the worlds of people who say look i don't want to care about stateful sets and load balancers and figuring out a manifest and all this stuff i just want some code to run somewhere and that's why i like lambda that's why i like azure functions so i mean what do you what do you think of those worlds how do you see those two ever reconciling or do they have to um so i i think the reason they like serverless well one of the reasons they like serverless is as you said they don't really have to do anything special to have their code run and i think that's how where we as kind of the people that are building the platforms need to make sure that we give our developers an experience like that whether they're running on containers whether they're running on vms or whether it's a magic thing up in the sky they should have that same basic experience of i write code i want code to run and not have to worry about the the underlying uh business of actually making it run and so i think uh serverless is more an evolution of the user experience to me than it is uh you know

a breakthrough in uh you know technology or anything i think kelsey hightower pointed out uh not long ago in a blog post that uh you know we were doing serverless a long time ago and we called it uh you know common gateway interface and that's how we started running you know scripts and php and stuff in the you know late 90s and that was telling apache hey run this function for me right yeah that's fair i wonder if but do you think the patterns are different though because as you said i can cram all sorts of things in a container and i get certain efficiencies and benefits versus most part function platforms teach folks to do or force people to do a fairly asynchronous sort of event-driven architecture there may be possibilities in the future for sharing functions between different companies as you have marketplaces like amazon's doing and so do you think there's a bigger paradigm shift though versus just the ux experience being a little different there probably is um i think we're still away from realizing that though um and and and i think in in the meantime uh being able to run existing workloads and new workloads that don't quite fit the serverless model um um having something like kubernetes or uh or a paas underneath you is uh really useful uh and i think it is good though to have things like serverless at your fingertips so that when you do hit something that's perfect for just having a function that can react to an event and uh you know output some sort of blob of information or pass on that to uh another thing to process i think uh you know is super important and so being able to tie the two together uh and uh and run the two side by side uh is definitely going to be uh very critical and whatever whatever platform you uh you get to use well that's good i think uh i mean i mean is there anything else you want to throw out before before we wrap up that

you think would be uh good for people know about the kubernetes space no not that i can think of i mean i mean clearly clearly based on what you said everyone should go out and try to install it right now that that seems to be the uh the primary takeaway as as i recall they had a little bit of a laggy connection but that's what i wrote down in my notes right so if you want to experience installing kubernetes uh google for kubernetes the hard way uh kelsey hightower's got a git repo uh that tells you in painful detail uh all of the commands you need to run to uh go from zero to kubernetes uh and it's quite an eye-opening experience and uh shows you how uh how important it is to have all of that automated in a repeatable and reliable way yeah i think i think that's something that that we uh we sort of all realized a few years back is like if you want if you want a cloud then you have to install a cloud like it's pretty difficult it's not like uh it's it's there's a reason it's a cloud instead of just a vm and and that the reason it contains multiple multitudes of awesome configuration tasks or toil as as some other people would call it which which is fine it has it has nice results well uh to that end why don't you know i know you're over there on twitter you're you're one of these people who has an ever delightful evolving real name that you use there so that's fun but where were you in twitter and elsewhere that people could look you up and in a very non-creepy way follow you around the internet yeah you can find me at pchakowski on twitter uh because when i signed up for twitter i didn't quite realize that it was really silly to have a unspellable username uh so if you can figure out how to spell the first half of my last name you can uh find me on twitter we should we should just see if uh maybe google has worked out well enough that you could just search for like paul kubernetes and you know because kubernetes easy word to spell equally uh no problem yeah that's right all right well great well thanks for being on that that was uh that was good stuff and as always

this has been Pivotal Conversations if you want to get the most recent episodes or peruse our back catalog i was just looking at a speaking of platforms an episode we had with uh the platform team at allstate uh just going over how they built out their platform and we talked a little bit about it here but the evolving roles of the platform operators versus the application teams that they discovered in doing that but there's other episodes a lot of richard and i talking in our uh wonderful comforting uh you know back and forth voices but you can check those all out over at soundcloud.com slash Pivotal Conversations just one word and about every thursday i post the uh full show notes over at pivotal.io slash podcast where you can find links to those things that we mentioned and with that we'll see everyone next time bye bye

Tanzu Talk · 🍕 Get more pizza.