1
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Well, you know, after this recording, I got to go to the doctors for the somewhat annual-ish kind of visit.

2
00:00:07,420 --> 00:00:17,620
And, you know, I was thinking other than the obvious of just, like, it's inconvenient and, like, you know, U.S. health care and all that stuff.

3
00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:24,500
Like, man, there is just something, like, inherently frustrating and annoying about going to see the doctor.

4
00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:26,120
And I just don't know what it is.

5
00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:26,940
Do you got any ideas?

6
00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:29,040
What's your relationship with going to see the doctor?

7
00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,780
Yeah, last Tuesday, I had my first physical since I think I was 30.

8
00:00:34,260 --> 00:00:39,220
So, you know, my doctor visits have been few and far between as I stay somewhat healthy.

9
00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:42,260
So, you're always a little nervous, you know, stripped down.

10
00:00:42,340 --> 00:00:46,720
They immediately have all the control of the situation as I'm just sitting here in a weird gown.

11
00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:48,340
But that's fine.

12
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It's nice to get the results.

13
00:00:49,820 --> 00:00:52,780
So, at least you're, you know, that part's the good part of it.

14
00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:54,380
And I had a dentist appointment two days later.

15
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So, my body is now rejecting all doctors for the next couple of months.

16
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Yeah.

17
00:00:59,060 --> 00:01:00,900
Now, the dentist, that's a whole other thing.

18
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Man, that's, that's, yeah, I don't know what it is.

19
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It's just like, it's just, it's just not, it just doesn't, it's not, it's not that I'm afraid of results or anything.

20
00:01:11,860 --> 00:01:14,440
I mean, maybe it is just, it's annoying and inconvenient.

21
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Like, you know, it's good to, like, go get your, your, as they say, lab work done so that you don't have to do it afterwards and you can have one appointment.

22
00:01:21,620 --> 00:01:23,460
And, of course, I didn't do that, right?

23
00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:25,860
So, now I'm going to have to, I don't know.

24
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There's, there's something wrong with that.

25
00:01:28,220 --> 00:01:29,460
I mean, are you an eye doctor guy?

26
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Do you like the eye doctor?

27
00:01:30,500 --> 00:01:32,020
Oh, no, no, no, I don't go to the eye doctor.

28
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I, I, I do need to get my LASIK renewed.

29
00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:36,920
See, that's, I like that.

30
00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:38,200
That's, I'm looking forward to that.

31
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That's a good transactional thing that has clear results, so to speak.

32
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No pun intended.

33
00:01:43,860 --> 00:01:56,400
But, but, but it's just a lot more straightforward, whereas, like, I mean, I feel like, you know, I've never, once, once I stopped going to the, the kid doctor, what do they call that?

34
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A pediatricist?

35
00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,120
Like, I never have had, like, a relationship.

36
00:02:02,700 --> 00:02:04,820
Yeah, I've never had a relationship with a doctor.

37
00:02:05,140 --> 00:02:05,760
You know what I mean?

38
00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:07,440
It's just like retail doctoring.

39
00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:17,480
Like, I might as well go down to the, uh, the CVS and just, like, have someone tell me to eat more fruits and vegetables and that, you know, I'm probably, you know, should be doing something different as I get older.

40
00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:19,200
And it's just, it's just frustrating.

41
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I don't, I don't know.

42
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It's, it's annoying.

43
00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:22,960
It feels like a waste of time.

44
00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:26,540
Well, I'm looking forward to my doctor.

45
00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:27,740
Looking for more intimacy.

46
00:02:27,980 --> 00:02:28,280
That's good.

47
00:02:28,640 --> 00:02:29,040
Something.

48
00:02:29,300 --> 00:02:29,560
Yeah.

49
00:02:29,780 --> 00:02:34,480
Like, you know, just go read my Twitter feed or something and figure it out.

50
00:02:34,740 --> 00:02:36,540
I'm sure that look on Instagram.

51
00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:40,740
Look at these things I'm eating and, and, uh, and blood work.

52
00:02:41,340 --> 00:02:41,880
I don't know.

53
00:02:41,900 --> 00:02:45,280
And they always tell you, like, what your blood pressure is, as if that means anything.

54
00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:57,060
It might as well be, like, it's sort of like, it's like, it's like if you were, like, uh, you know, you were, like, the, the VP of, you know, running a business and some, some developer came and told you, like, some error code that happened.

55
00:02:57,060 --> 00:02:59,040
It's just, like, I don't, I don't know what that means.

56
00:02:59,540 --> 00:03:00,620
What do I do about that?

57
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Error code 35A.

58
00:03:02,660 --> 00:03:03,020
Great.

59
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Here's a raise.

60
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Right?

61
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Like, it's just, uh, it's just, just, just.

62
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Uncomprehensible junk.

63
00:03:08,900 --> 00:03:10,980
So on that note, things are looking pretty good.

64
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It's like the start of this year.

65
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Yeah.

66
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It's like when a pilot tells you the wind speed on the plane.

67
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Like, I don't know what to do with any of this information.

68
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Oh, yeah.

69
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Just do your job.

70
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Doctor slash pilots.

71
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Yeah.

72
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Yeah.

73
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That's, that's fun.

74
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That's good stuff.

75
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That's, that's maybe a good analogy because, like, my relationship with the pilot talking is pretty much the volume and my proximity to the speaker that his voice is coming out of.

76
00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:35,640
Right?

77
00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:42,280
Like, all, all I really experience is, is it really loud or is it quiet so I can tune it out?

78
00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,540
I think that's a good metaphor for my relationship with doctors.

79
00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:48,760
It's just, like, you know, get, get me to the place.

80
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I don't really want a bunch of jibber jabber.

81
00:03:51,740 --> 00:03:52,160
That's right.

82
00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,420
I used to say, love doctors, the great people.

83
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That's what I'm here for in analogies.

84
00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:04,080
Well, in a, in a, in a completely other area, you know, I'm, I'm excited you pulled this out because I saw the headlines for it.

85
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You know, as, as, as I'm there, as I'm sure you are scanning the headlines, seeing what's going on.

86
00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:10,160
And, uh, I don't know.

87
00:04:10,220 --> 00:04:15,220
I didn't have much to think or say about it, but it looks like Google is, is pulling more undersea cable.

88
00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:16,840
So what, what's the deal with that?

89
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Yeah.

90
00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:23,600
I mean, remember that, you know, Google's arguably one of the largest telcos in the world based on the network they own.

91
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So they're, you know, putting down some more cable, connecting more sites.

92
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They announced, I think, five new cloud expansion locations for next year.

93
00:04:31,180 --> 00:04:37,260
So interesting to see them kind of announcing what 2018 looks like with, which includes owning the bandwidth, which you shouldn't underrate.

94
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Is that a, that's a big deal when you own the fiber itself.

95
00:04:40,300 --> 00:04:40,420
Yeah.

96
00:04:40,840 --> 00:04:42,100
No, I think that's true.

97
00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,220
I mean, back when I, as, as I'm, I'm sure you were in this position as well.

98
00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:58,460
Having been, uh, at, uh, century link, but back when I was doing cloud strategy, there was a dark horse is the wrong analogy, but the, uh, maybe the, the, the iceberg under the water or the P under the mattress is always like networking.

99
00:04:58,460 --> 00:04:59,780
It's pretty important, man.

100
00:05:00,100 --> 00:05:03,380
Like, it seemed like, uh, it was an interesting asset to have.

101
00:05:03,380 --> 00:05:14,620
And I was just, I was just looking up, uh, uh, one of those charts that shows like cumulative, uh, CapEx at like, uh, Amazon and, um, Google and Microsoft.

102
00:05:14,620 --> 00:05:22,540
Just kind of like, it's, it's, it's very imprecise, but, um, uh, it's sort of a proxy of how much money you need to spend, uh, to have public cloud.

103
00:05:22,540 --> 00:05:28,220
And, um, yeah, I mean, building your own global network, probably part of that.

104
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Absolutely.

105
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Yeah.

106
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It's not, not cheap.

107
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Yeah.

108
00:05:32,060 --> 00:05:38,600
You think the benefits of being able to control the latency and not forcing people through six different ops as they go through three different providers.

109
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That's a quality of service thing that maybe other clouds can tolerate, but it seems like Google doesn't want to.

110
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Yeah.

111
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Yeah.

112
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Yeah.

113
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They need to, they need to pull some of that cable into my neighborhood here.

114
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I only get like, uh, 18 mega doodles in my house, which is crazy.

115
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It's absurd.

116
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Like I get, I get maybe like 30 on my, uh, LTE network from the same provider, which I won't name, but, uh, I don't know what the deal is.

117
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Like they could just install a cell tower here and, uh, and, and then I'd be fine.

118
00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:06,940
They don't need to pull this cable.

119
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Sheesh.

120
00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:08,400
Yeah.

121
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I thought you knew people.

122
00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:09,620
Yeah.

123
00:06:09,780 --> 00:06:10,940
You got to cash that in.

124
00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:15,920
And in Austin, they only give a Google fiber to the hipsters down in South Austin.

125
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Very sad.

126
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Should move down there.

127
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I'll, uh, I'll downsize my house by a fourth and up my costs by five, just so I can get faster.

128
00:06:27,260 --> 00:06:35,520
And, uh, so also, you know, you pointed this out, I noticed, I, I remember running in this, uh, this guy, they hired the, uh, the Salesforce dev developer relations.

129
00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,340
They're on his head to, uh, to work for him over there at Google now.

130
00:06:39,420 --> 00:06:40,060
That's right.

131
00:06:40,260 --> 00:06:40,560
Yeah.

132
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They continue.

133
00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:44,720
I mean, there's, there seems to be this battle for evangelism that's going on.

134
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Microsoft's hired a strong team.

135
00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:50,780
Google not willing to cede any territory there continues to add smart folks.

136
00:06:50,780 --> 00:06:55,680
So adding Adam, who used to, as you mentioned, run dev evangelism things at a Salesforce.

137
00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,400
Now it's like VP of evangelism things at Google.

138
00:06:58,540 --> 00:06:59,500
So another good hire.

139
00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:01,780
It's good to see, uh, Google share that message.

140
00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,500
I think he, he might've been one of the people who, uh, witnessed.

141
00:07:05,500 --> 00:07:12,780
One of the more embarrassing, uh, epiphanies I had when I was an analyst, which is Salesforce is just a big database.

142
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And when you're talking about development, you wrap customized forms around it.

143
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And, and like, it took me a long time to understand that, like, it was just, you just got a giant database that's customized to doing this stuff.

144
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And then after that, it's pretty straightforward, all this, what all the, the, the type of development you do around it is.

145
00:07:28,860 --> 00:07:34,500
And I remember I was saying that to some Salesforce person and they just were kind of nodding with a confused look on their face.

146
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And I was like, yeah, didn't, didn't, didn't you know that?

147
00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:37,500
So.

148
00:07:39,260 --> 00:07:39,580
Yeah.

149
00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:40,240
How good about that?

150
00:07:40,260 --> 00:07:41,420
I mean, he seems like a patient guy.

151
00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,020
So if I, you know, just entertained you, that's fine.

152
00:07:44,140 --> 00:07:44,520
That's right.

153
00:07:44,620 --> 00:07:44,800
Yeah.

154
00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:45,240
Yeah.

155
00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:46,080
He was always very nice.

156
00:07:46,100 --> 00:08:04,940
And then also, you know, Ashley, who, who worked on my team for, I think maybe like nine hours or so before going to work at our friends at Microsoft, she had a pretty good write-up about what exactly, you know, developer advocates do and things like that, which is if you're interested in that kind of thing or evangelists, as they used to be called.

157
00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:11,460
It's a, it's a nice write-up developer advocate is a, is a pretty, pretty descriptive phrase for that.

158
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I remember I, I was visiting with some family recently and I was telling them that, that we used to call it evangelism and they had kind of this raised eyebrow look on their face, just a little too appropriating of the usual religious things or something.

159
00:08:25,940 --> 00:08:29,320
But yeah, anyway, so that's, that's a nice write-up if you're interested in that.

160
00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:38,620
And then also, you know, I was reading through the, the speaking of Google, they have a, what is it, would you say it, is it a machine learning or just image recognition?

161
00:08:38,620 --> 00:08:47,900
I guess it's both, but they have a new service out that's basically like drag and drop, uh, image recognition at the very least, uh, that, that looks actually pretty handy.

162
00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:49,960
Yeah.

163
00:08:49,980 --> 00:08:51,900
And they're saying this is the first of many to come.

164
00:08:51,900 --> 00:09:01,380
So I think they're just trying to get to this kind of no code or not even entry level because that probably cheapens it too much, but like, I don't need to have data scientists on staff to do some basic image recognition.

165
00:09:01,380 --> 00:09:04,880
So, you know, maybe products in inventory or people or what have you.

166
00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:11,960
So I think that's pretty cool as you, you know, I hate the democratization term, but that's, what's kind of happening here is you're simplifying machine learning for people.

167
00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:16,280
So it seems like it's worthwhile to, uh, add your name to the list of people who want to try it out.

168
00:09:16,540 --> 00:09:16,860
Yeah.

169
00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:17,280
Yeah.

170
00:09:17,340 --> 00:09:24,920
And, and like I've been, uh, I still haven't found that option where I can find out what, uh, painting I look like in the Google arts and culture thing.

171
00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:26,420
I guess it's not available in Austin.

172
00:09:26,660 --> 00:09:27,520
I don't understand why.

173
00:09:27,700 --> 00:09:27,800
Oh yeah.

174
00:09:27,860 --> 00:09:29,020
I think there was something about that.

175
00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:29,160
Yeah.

176
00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,800
I read that that specifically, I think it was Texas or others.

177
00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:35,960
If there's rules about how web companies could use your data, then those apps get blocked.

178
00:09:36,180 --> 00:09:37,080
That makes sense.

179
00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:43,500
That's interesting because, you know, like, well, uh, to, to use it as a, as a foil for that, for the, uh, that thing.

180
00:09:43,560 --> 00:09:45,760
So I've been using Google photos for a while, which is great.

181
00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:46,040
Right.

182
00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:50,580
It has this awesome, um, I guess, I guess it's, it's probably is a good example.

183
00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:56,000
I I'm guessing of like machine learning and action because it somehow figures out how to cluster things.

184
00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:03,700
There's literally a collection of albums called things and it figures out like, here's all the common things you have and people that you have, it clusters people.

185
00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:13,500
And when I was looking through the, uh, that Google, uh, arts and culture or whatever app, like it kind of looks like a re-skinned Google photos with like a blog added to it.

186
00:10:13,660 --> 00:10:15,860
And it is like, it's, it's a nice application.

187
00:10:15,860 --> 00:10:30,980
If you're into like seeing Frida Coles, like wardrobe and, uh, other things like that, it's, uh, it's fun to search through, but it, it does give you some inspiration of, of like, how would we use this kind of technology, uh, in, in whatever our own businesses may be.

188
00:10:30,980 --> 00:10:49,120
And I think, uh, I think the idea of having, uh, to use, to use probably a word that as, as someone on the periphery of, of technical marketing, you would never want to use to simplify, uh, and create a simplification of something as complicated as ML definitely seems good, or we could democratize it.

189
00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:49,980
That's fine too.

190
00:10:50,560 --> 00:10:50,980
There you go.

191
00:10:50,980 --> 00:10:56,680
No need to say it's simple, but, and there, and therefore of a lesser value for the cynical people.

192
00:10:56,860 --> 00:11:03,640
And then, and so the, uh, my, my wife, there's a, there's a fun, uh, crossover from normal to nerd land.

193
00:11:03,780 --> 00:11:09,180
She was very upset with Amazon that they haven't just named the city that they're going to have their new headquarters.

194
00:11:09,180 --> 00:11:10,200
And I shouldn't say upset.

195
00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:11,780
She was just more like, what's the deal?

196
00:11:12,140 --> 00:11:13,520
Like, why wouldn't they be picking?

197
00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:17,040
But they have narrowed it down to, uh, to 20 places.

198
00:11:17,460 --> 00:11:18,840
I'm not going to read all of them.

199
00:11:19,300 --> 00:11:21,320
Uh, but you know, so that's, that's fun.

200
00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:26,240
But I wanted to ask you, this comes up every now and then there's sort of like Seattle has mixed feelings about Amazon,

201
00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:27,860
but like, what's the deal with that?

202
00:11:29,180 --> 00:11:29,960
Yeah, it's funny.

203
00:11:30,020 --> 00:11:31,220
I mean, I work in downtown Seattle.

204
00:11:31,340 --> 00:11:38,380
That's where the pivotal offices and, and no doubt that I mean, I think a new high rise is going up that Amazon rented the whole thing or at least the whole thing.

205
00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:40,840
So, I mean, they've taken over the city, but so has Google.

206
00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:42,360
So have plenty of companies.

207
00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:46,620
I mean, downtown Seattle, I think it's the, uh, one of those, those giant cranes.

208
00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:48,180
It's one of the crane capitals of the world.

209
00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:49,400
Everyone just building new stuff.

210
00:11:49,540 --> 00:11:57,420
So, you know, I think there's this love, hate of, hey, it drives up housing prices because housing's crazy around here now and increases traffic and all those things.

211
00:11:57,420 --> 00:12:07,040
But what was interesting is once they announced that HQ2 idea, also then all the city leaders kind of descend on, oh my gosh, we're sorry if you thought that all of our hostile activities meant we didn't like you here.

212
00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:11,860
So it was, uh, somewhat amusing to see everyone come hat in hand back to Amazon.

213
00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:16,320
But I think that ship has sailed and they've got this list of cities, which, hey, you're on the list.

214
00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:17,440
Congrats, Austin.

215
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That's right.

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So, you've, uh, I mean, I think that the funny thing is this is, I mean, pretty much a list of major U.S. cities minus Toronto.

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So, I mean, it's not like this is novel.

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They didn't throw out some weird city in New Mexico.

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Like this is kind of where companies do business.

220
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So I guess congrats on owning the news cycle for a couple of days.

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Yeah. I mean, I guess Phoenix isn't in there, right?

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Is that, uh, but.

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Sure. I mean, he missed Detroit was one of those that they missed, you know, that people were disappointed in.

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But I mean, for the most part, if you're going to narrow it down to 20 cities, clearly Newark's going to be on that list.

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Any of these cities I can make fun of, I don't know.

226
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I mean, it's a good list of cities.

227
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It's fine.

228
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It's places you would put a headquarters.

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Yeah. You know, up, up several layers in the conceptual stack, if you will.

230
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It's sort of like an ongoing, uh, I don't know.

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I would call it one of my theories in that I haven't done any sort of research.

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But the, you know, the theory being as, as I've been traipsing around visiting more and more people over the past three years, like there's like technical people and programmers everywhere.

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Like in every, every major city, they're like chock full of one, because there's always like a ton of banks and insurance companies who are like in Phoenix.

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Right.

235
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There's like, you wouldn't think it as, as just someone who doesn't follow this stuff, but there's a ton of insurance stuff in Phoenix and therefore IT people.

236
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And like, so yeah, there's people who can computer pretty much everywhere in, in major cities.

237
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And, and, and it is, I think, um, I think maybe in the era of, I don't know what era this was, the era of like IBM being everywhere.

238
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That was sort of not an issue, right?

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I mean, like they're in, they're in all sorts of places.

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And some of that's driven by acquisitions that they did over the past 30, 40 years, but others of it is just like, you know, you would never guess or, or whatever.

241
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Like Austin, a huge part of Austin being a tech company, not all of it by far, but it's because IBM had a huge campus here for a long time.

242
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And so, um, it's also interesting to think about like the maturity of Amazon as a company that now they're going to just have campuses everywhere, even more so than the, they do, but like major ones spread everywhere, which we'll, we'll see how people react to that as far as how it, uh, shapes things around.

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It's, it's always, it's always, uh, uh, a little scary as like, you know, a well-off tech industry person to comment on, uh, changing cities around, but I don't, I don't know what to do.

244
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It helped Austin out a lot.

245
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Yeah.

246
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And sometimes, I mean, it's good to spread it out.

247
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I mean, the one thing that's almost the joke in Seattle is because Amazon doesn't really allow remote work is that you kind of have to come to Seattle.

248
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So if you've ever worked in this city in tech, you've been called by Amazon because they've either just completely drained the market up here.

249
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Like everyone who wants to work there at this point works there.

250
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And then, you know, can you keep moving people up to the Pacific Northwest?

251
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Like you just, it gets a point where you've saturated kind of what's available.

252
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So it makes sense to go pick, go put something on the East coast, go put something in Texas, go put something in the Midwest.

253
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As long as you're buying an airport, you're in great shape.

254
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Yeah.

255
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Yeah.

256
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So when some urban planners need to do some Monte Carlo stuff on like, uh, how would it affect Seattle and other cities?

257
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And because you raise an interesting point of like, well, if there's a big issue in Seattle, then maybe we can bleed some of that off.

258
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Not only we can benefit Seattle by bleeding off all the whatever badness that people might think there is, and then also help some other city out.

259
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It's weird, weird, exciting dilemma to have.

260
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So speaking of negativity, I don't think we've talked about the, uh, the specter and meltdown stuff on this podcast, right?

261
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Cause it's first, first, uh, podcast we've recorded this year.

262
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And, uh, I mean, I, I think it's, I think it's, it's pretty well covered at this point, but, but, uh, you, uh, you dug out, uh, an overview that I think is highly relevant to the, to the cloud native world.

263
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What was written up in it?

264
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Yeah, it was a good piece by Kurt who talked about kind of patching hygiene and this idea of like this thing, like this will always happen, right?

265
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There's going to be another one of these this year.

266
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There's always going to be these sorts of things.

267
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And what this continually points out is most companies just have a bad patching hygiene and it takes months, if not more.

268
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Like the joke is by the time they get the specter patch, they're just patching heart bleed, which was when like a year or two ago.

269
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So how are you thinking about, you know, if I can't patch a few hundred images, how am I also going to patch a few thousand containers?

270
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Like there's all these different challenges of how do I deal with patching?

271
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And for the most part, it seems like it is an industry.

272
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We're just not very good at it.

273
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So the point of this piece was a bit of sometimes you need platform sort of things that can take care of some of this for you, where you're not manually rolling through servers, but the platform's doing that.

274
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So whether that's Bosch and cloud foundry or whatever sorts of tools that you've got,

275
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it seems like that's a really worthwhile investment this year because this won't go away.

276
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And you can't, I can imagine there's a few enterprises where they've had to put major projects on hold so they could get all hands on deck to go patch a few thousand machines.

277
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Like that's not going to stop.

278
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So either you get ahead of it or you're going to keep sidetracking yourself with patching exercises.

279
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Yeah, it was, it was making me think that, I mean, unless you're of a certain ilk of IT people, few things could be more boring than patching as a topic.

280
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But, but it does point to the need of, what would you call it?

281
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Is it a, is it a functional requirement?

282
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You know, probably given all the security stuff nowadays, that actually is a pretty important thing to stress out about.

283
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Like in considering what your, your projects or as we like to call them products or something, what you're, what the initiatives that you have in IT are and the new things that you're bringing in is to have a pretty thorough understanding of how do I patch this thing?

284
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And, and what do I do with it?

285
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And it, it reminds me of a, a question I got in an EBC from someone who, uh, I think, I think they were like, they were something like the VP of patching.

286
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They were the VP of infrastructure, but it sounded like they had become the VP of patching.

287
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And, and they were asking, you know, how, how Pivotal Cloud Foundry helps out with patching.

288
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And, and it felt like I was not helping them as much as possible because what they really wanted to know is like, of all of IT, how do I patch it?

289
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Like, like, how does this address it?

290
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Whereas, you know, obviously the, uh, the benefits of, of the way that Cloud Foundry does stuff works if you're running Cloud Foundry.

291
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And, you know, I guess, I guess nowadays, if you're running a Kubernetes cluster and everything, but it is, I think, I think there is a pattern to bring out of there to be, to say like the same idea of being able to very quickly patch things should probably be a very important requirement for whatever you have.

292
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And it probably, there's probably a huge amount of business value now to like making sure you can do that.

293
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So maybe don't ship some new stuff until you solve that problem, uh, in, in the rest of the world.

294
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But that is, uh, it's, it's, it's, it's back to the old, the old, again, another theory of mine thing about security is like the way to fix security is to actually do it.

295
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Uh, which, you know, uh, that, that comes up a lot in, uh, how to improve IT.

296
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So I think we have a blog post coming out on, uh, from pivotal, just on some things of how you can kind of act forward.

297
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But I think for most, you know, if you're a listener here, the thing you can do today is every, you know, part of your sourcing contracts, when you're bringing in new software or, or hardware, one of your primary questions would be, how do I patch this thing?

298
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And can I do it through automation?

299
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And don't buy any hardware or software that you can't patch easily because it's going to cause so much heartache later.

300
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You can do that right now.

301
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So, yeah, well, just, uh, two more things you can look up in the show notes, but that I'll reference.

302
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So, uh, uh, just some, some stuff I was doing recently last week, you know, there, there's, there's a lot of, uh, a lot of consternating and hand-wringing over like how, uh, tech companies are like destroying civilization.

303
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I don't know if, if, if you were in the listeners have read that and often what they really mean is how people are upset about Facebook.

304
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They, they had often, uh, just amounts to that.

305
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Like last week, the economist had a couple of, uh, well, one that they based their, one of the leader stories off of, uh,

306
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I think, I think it was a, uh, a fun piece to read kind of summarizing it all.

307
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And, uh, we talked about it in, in, uh, in a podcast that I did last week and, and I have a little silly newsletter I do.

308
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And I found myself writing a rant about it, but I think it is like, I normally, I don't really like consumer tech stuff because I just don't, I guess.

309
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But I think it is like worthwhile kind of like, if you don't pay attention to that stuff, kind of, uh, getting, getting into, getting into it a little bit to understand it, uh, like what people are consuming.

310
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I'm concerned about when, just because these conversations come up and you don't want it to distract from, uh, talking about more interesting things like patching.

311
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But, uh, so, you know, you, you know, that, that was, that was in our, uh, software defined talk thing, uh, last week, if you want to look that up.

312
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And then also there's been a, um, kind of a flurry of, of market sizing and spending things coming out, which I'll put links to in the show notes at pivotal.io slash podcast.

313
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But just on the whole, I think that the thing to pull from this is, is if you look at, uh, surveys that have been coming in and forecasts, it looks like people are pretty consistently saying they're going to be spending more on, uh, IT this year and in the future, which is encouraging.

314
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Cause you know, improving takes money last time I checked.

315
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So, uh, there's a lot of people who are, who are into that.

316
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So then the, uh, you, there's just the two of us here.

317
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We, we, we have a guest that we'll get back on to, uh, to talk about, uh, it was actually going to be about, uh, talking about Azure stack and things like that, but she'll be on, uh, she had to, I think she had to like go to Singapore or something, but, uh, we'll have her on to talk about that, uh, in a future episode.

318
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But in the meantime, I think, I think one of our, uh, one of your evergreen topics based on the age of the primary content you sent me is, uh, was basically discussing like the idea of, uh, to put it in my, my summary, like what's the deal with open source as a business nowadays?

319
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And, and to add, to add a bit of my spin to it, which I think, uh, watching this over the decades, which is interesting is there's always this standing question of what, what does software companies owe the open source world, uh, operating in them.

320
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And, um, you know, you, you pulled a good, a good piece from, uh, Matt assay.

321
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He's one of the few people probably like myself who would write the word stupid in a tech news article.

322
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So that's fun.

323
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And, uh, there's several other pieces, like there's always the, um, like you have one of these from, uh, James governor or over at red monk, there's kind of surveying, uh, based on GitHub.

324
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It used to be on source forge or whatever, but whatever public records of repositories, the involvement of various companies in open source, which is interesting.

325
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But, you know, so that's my setup of the topic, but like, what, what were you thinking in this area of like, uh, what's the deal with commercialized open source and how it sort of relates to a good way of operating a software?

326
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company nowadays.

327
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Yeah.

328
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So it'd be fun to get with you about this.

329
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As you mentioned, I mean, there's been a number of pieces about this topic for a long time, not just over the last few months, but, you know, as I look at Pivotal, we do a lot of open source here.

330
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And that's things like data, Greenplum and Gemfire or Cloud Foundry, of course, Spring, RabbitMQ, now Kubernetes making some contributions there.

331
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And so, you know, we get recognized that we, Pivotal does a lot for our size, but just makes me think about what is the role of the open source?

332
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Are you doing it because you're nice to people?

333
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Are you doing it because you want to make money off it?

334
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I think Matt's piece was, hey, Amazon doesn't owe us anything, that they're making open source easier to use by delivering it as a service.

335
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Who cares if their contribution back is a little spotty?

336
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And still, they contribute a lot, but given their size, probably not as much as you see from Google and others.

337
00:23:35,860 --> 00:23:39,680
So, it was just this conversation of kind of why do you open source?

338
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Why do companies participate in this?

339
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And what's interesting is if you look at, I think, most open source at this point has a corporate sponsor.

340
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So, as much as we like to think of it as people toiling around on some mission to change the world,

341
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it seems like most major open source projects are funded by people's salaries being paid for by corporations

342
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and hope to have some benefit as a result of that.

343
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:01,900
I don't think that's a bad thing.

344
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It just seems like we don't talk about that a lot.

345
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:05,140
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

346
00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:11,800
I mean, I think that the last part you mentioned is, I mean, that's the way, man, I don't know since how long,

347
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but the way I generally think of open source is, or I should say, the last point that you made is a good result

348
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of how I've tended to view open source and observe people using it, which is just like, it's a good means of production, right?

349
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Like, if you want to write software, it's, I mean, there's almost three cases.

350
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:33,460
I'll see if I remember them.

351
00:24:33,460 --> 00:24:37,960
But the first case working backwards is like, and is this true?

352
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I mean, a lot of what Pivotal does fits into this category and Red Hat and all sorts of other people, IBM and Facebook and Google and Microsoft,

353
00:24:48,700 --> 00:25:00,040
is if you're going to do software, it's probably a good idea to start with the assumption that it's going to be open source and then come up with the case why it should be closed source if you're not going to do it.

354
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Just because there's not a huge amount of tactical money that you lose and strategy that you lose by open sourcing something.

355
00:25:10,300 --> 00:25:14,260
It's not necessarily a recipe for killing your business.

356
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I think most people are over that idea of it.

357
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And the benefits that you get of one internal facing is, and I don't know if this is true, but it feels like it's true, is most developers would like to work on open source things.

358
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And so you have a good morale boost and motivation for your employees to do things well.

359
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,940
And I think there's a bit of like positive shame in action.

360
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And you would see this a lot in the late 2000s when companies would want to open source things.

361
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And one, they would have to sort out like IP they had licensed and if they could open source that.

362
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:56,860
And, you know, this is always like comically for me, like Java would be like, I don't know, we have some fonts that we license so we can't open source stuff.

363
00:25:56,980 --> 00:26:00,680
It was probably more complicated than that, but it's kind of a farcical way of putting it.

364
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But, you know, they do worry about the quality of their code and making sure that it's presentable rather than just sort of hidden stuff.

365
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And then, you know, finally, I think just for the internal production, it is genuinely helpful to like have people contribute back to it.

366
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So, you know, we have in the Cloud Foundry world, there's instances of enterprises or organizations who are not software companies.

367
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They come up with something and they contribute it back and it gets folded into the broader Cloud Foundry thing,

368
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which is incredibly useful.

369
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It's better than just filing some tickets somewhere.

370
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And then I think, you know, the other bucket that I see people having is, I don't know, a more positive word than like, well, let's call it, you know, yesterday's success.

371
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Which, you know, in our realm of the world, like we have the Spring Framework, which started maybe in the early, the first half of the 2000s, if I remember.

372
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And as was the style at the time, you would do that as open source and it's just continued to be open source.

373
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And probably if we started it today, it would be open source as well, but it's just lingered from that era.

374
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:16,980
And that's a good demonstration of how things transitioned, I think, from the first thing, which is sort of like, I don't know what you would call it.

375
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:30,180
It's just philosophically open source, just like, and I don't, I think this is the thing that least exists nowadays than it used to is just like this notion of everything should be open source.

376
00:27:30,580 --> 00:27:35,100
Like, it should just be, and if it's not, it's evil and it's bad.

377
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,400
And I don't think that happens that much anymore.

378
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:46,720
You see it kind of, you see echoes of it in sort of like the mission statements of like the Apache Software Foundation and, you know, when GPL things come up and stuff like that.

379
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,020
But it's not an extremely prominent way of thinking about it.

380
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So, I mean, I think, I think in summary, it's just like, it's proven to be a good way of doing software.

381
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And I don't think it's that much of a hamper to monetizing it.

382
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,420
So, it's, might as well be a good choice of how you go about doing things.

383
00:28:06,540 --> 00:28:07,260
Yeah, interesting.

384
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I'm going to want to gab with you in the, I think I mostly agree with that.

385
00:28:11,980 --> 00:28:15,900
I think the monetization has proven trickier, but we'll talk about that in a second.

386
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,100
I think that, as I like your reasons there on why people open source their own stuff.

387
00:28:20,100 --> 00:28:26,540
I've seen examples and worked with examples where sometimes you do it on purpose to almost set the market, right?

388
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,820
That I want to freeze out any of the competitive options.

389
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,200
So, let me open source this thing because there's another thing out there that is commercial.

390
00:28:32,660 --> 00:28:33,480
But let's say Kubernetes.

391
00:28:33,980 --> 00:28:34,260
Yeah, yeah.

392
00:28:34,260 --> 00:28:39,880
Did Google just open source that because they were nice people or because they also saw a chance to dominate a market?

393
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:41,380
I think it's the latter.

394
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,260
So, sometimes you do that to purposely freeze out competitors.

395
00:28:44,260 --> 00:28:49,220
Yeah, and to interrupt you on that note, I should remind them that I sent this to them a long time ago.

396
00:28:49,340 --> 00:28:55,320
But I wrote some column for the register about what's the deal.

397
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,100
I keep saying what's the deal, but I don't know how else to phrase it.

398
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:04,040
But like, why did Google open source Kubernetes?

399
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:11,460
And not only so much, why is a retroactive thing, but it's why do they keep caring about it?

400
00:29:11,540 --> 00:29:12,780
How does it fit in strategically?

401
00:29:12,780 --> 00:29:23,060
And I think that's, if I remember, that's the conclusion that I came to is it's basically a, there's a certain type of, I'm sure this happens outside of the software world.

402
00:29:23,140 --> 00:29:26,520
But in the software world, exactly, I'm just repeating what you said.

403
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:42,160
With open source and to a limited extent free stuff like back in the VMware Hyper-V days, there is a very real strategy of basically negating someone else's advantage by giving up a little bit of your own, right?

404
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:49,480
It's sort of the, you know, if none of us can have this EBIT, if I can't have this EBIT, then none of us can have it.

405
00:29:50,100 --> 00:29:52,760
So you just, you just totally neutralize it out.

406
00:29:52,760 --> 00:30:11,900
And I think in the case of, to generalize of platform things, if you're worried about someone getting a, as we used to say, control point, somewhere where they can extract a lot of value because they have the one unique closed source thing, there's something to be said for neutralizing the monetary value of that by open sourcing it.

407
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:18,000
So you can focus on other areas that are more, you're more capable of monetizing.

408
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:24,300
And I don't know, it's, I never reached this conclusion in the article, but I guess that's what's up with Kubernetes.

409
00:30:24,780 --> 00:30:25,740
It's hard to say.

410
00:30:25,820 --> 00:30:28,140
There's a lot of virtuousness wrapped up in it as well.

411
00:30:29,740 --> 00:30:38,020
Yeah, and that's, you know, sometimes you also see kind of related to that, that you are trying to solve someone else's problem or demonstrate thought leadership.

412
00:30:38,220 --> 00:30:48,140
I mean, is there another reason that Lyft, a car company created Envoy and that kind of complements Istio and these other things that it's demonstrating that, hey, smart people work here and we're solving problems.

413
00:30:48,140 --> 00:30:50,220
And maybe we can help you solve some of these problems too.

414
00:30:50,300 --> 00:30:52,940
So there is a bit of a altruistic approach to that.

415
00:30:53,060 --> 00:30:53,480
I buy that.

416
00:30:53,560 --> 00:31:01,900
And that's why individuals who don't work for big companies also create open source projects and slog through issues and accept pull requests on weekends.

417
00:31:01,900 --> 00:31:06,620
Like that is a thankless job for plenty of people, but they do it because they feel like they're solving a legit problem.

418
00:31:06,620 --> 00:31:07,260
And that's awesome.

419
00:31:07,340 --> 00:31:10,080
And some of those corporations seem to do that as recruiting.

420
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:16,440
I remember almost the end of every Netflix post about one of their cool open source projects is, hey, if you want to work on this stuff, we're hiring.

421
00:31:16,940 --> 00:31:20,080
So you're doing it because it shows that this is a cool place to work.

422
00:31:20,180 --> 00:31:21,500
Therefore, we want talented people.

423
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:22,800
So let's open source stuff.

424
00:31:23,060 --> 00:31:25,620
I think Adrian Cockroft even admitted that at some point.

425
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,540
Much of this is almost a recruiting technique as much as anything.

426
00:31:30,340 --> 00:31:34,380
And then the final one that I see, I don't know if you see this too, Coté, is the cynical side.

427
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,580
Sometimes you open source stuff that you don't want to deal with anymore.

428
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,400
Like, hey, let's open source this database or let's open source this thing.

429
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,660
By the way, we're not going to be primary on this anymore because we want to work on other stuff.

430
00:31:44,060 --> 00:31:46,380
So it's not we're gifting this to the community.

431
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,160
It's like, hey, you guys now take this.

432
00:31:48,620 --> 00:31:50,200
And so, and again, that's fine.

433
00:31:50,220 --> 00:31:53,420
But it seems like that's another reason people do open source their software.

434
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:54,360
Yeah, yeah.

435
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:54,720
Yeah.

436
00:31:54,780 --> 00:31:55,700
You know, and it's notable.

437
00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:02,480
So looking at the chart that James Governor pulled out of the top contributors to GitHub and,

438
00:32:02,740 --> 00:32:05,080
you know, never mind the fine print of how it's generated.

439
00:32:05,140 --> 00:32:06,420
I'm sure it's great and fine.

440
00:32:06,420 --> 00:32:18,560
But if you look at it to kind of to what you're saying, there are, well, let's just throw out Apache.org because it's sort of like, that's like saying a number one contributor to open source is open source.

441
00:32:19,060 --> 00:32:24,920
But anyways, if you look at there actually are not that many companies on here.

442
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:26,260
Or let me rephrase that.

443
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:32,080
There are a lot of companies on here that don't actually sell software, right?

444
00:32:32,140 --> 00:32:34,300
Or don't actually sell software traditionally.

445
00:32:34,300 --> 00:32:40,040
They might, in the case of Amazon, they might sell running software for you, right?

446
00:32:40,220 --> 00:32:41,400
Since it's public cloud.

447
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:47,360
But you look at someone like Facebook, like, you know, I was writing in that rant I was mentioning earlier in my newsletter.

448
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:53,780
Like, I guess you could argue that Facebook sells advertising management as a service.

449
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,360
So you could kind of think of them as a software, as a service in that respect.

450
00:32:58,220 --> 00:33:04,620
But, you know, someone, and then Alibaba, like, does, you know, it does retail and also, like, public cloud stuff and all manner of things.

451
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:11,700
But it's interesting to think that a lot of the companies that contribute a lot to open source, they don't care about monetizing the software.

452
00:33:12,060 --> 00:33:12,800
Like, they don't need to.

453
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:27,540
Like, their interests, it kind of like with Netflix, and to read a little bit into it, I think part of, I would theorize that part of why Netflix open source stuff is that genuine old rainbow and sandal stuff of, like, well, because the quality is going to be better, right?

454
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:33,720
Like, there is, Netflix is, you know, this is, maybe I'm the only one in the world who thinks this, but, like, I don't know.

455
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:35,740
I wouldn't really call them a technology company.

456
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,060
They're like a TV and movie company, right?

457
00:33:38,060 --> 00:33:46,640
They heavily use, this is the topic to be more grandstanding of my register column this month, but they use technology, like, wickedly and, like, deeply.

458
00:33:47,260 --> 00:33:50,080
But they don't, like, send you DVDs, right?

459
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:51,560
Like, they don't sell you software.

460
00:33:52,480 --> 00:34:01,100
And so, if you are one of those companies, as we used to say, an enterprise, like, to a large extent, like, open sourcing your stuff is probably a great idea.

461
00:34:01,100 --> 00:34:08,400
Now, maybe not if you're doing some sort of, like, you know, customized insurance book analysis or things like that.

462
00:34:08,460 --> 00:34:11,400
Like, there are proprietary things that maybe you don't want to open source.

463
00:34:11,580 --> 00:34:23,980
But, like, for the most part, if it's just about, like, we're going to have a bunch of services and we need an efficient way for various pieces of code we have to look up how to talk to a service, like, just open source your registry thing.

464
00:34:24,020 --> 00:34:24,460
Who cares?

465
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,360
Like, so, you know, that might be another.

466
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:28,040
That's a good point.

467
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:28,760
You know, it's interesting.

468
00:34:28,820 --> 00:34:34,640
It would be interesting to kind of filter all this based on we actually do have a lot of enterprise involvement in open source.

469
00:34:34,980 --> 00:34:41,500
And we just think of those enterprise companies as, like, tech companies nowadays when really, like, they're enterprise companies.

470
00:34:41,620 --> 00:34:55,800
So, I guess if you're going to be predictive to test this theory out, you would say over the next 10 years, you would expect someone like Ford to be a big contributor or other enterprises that write a lot of software or are setting themselves up to write a lot of software.

471
00:34:56,060 --> 00:34:58,820
And be curious to see if they open source that stuff.

472
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:01,540
No, that's a great point.

473
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:08,760
You know, and to your point on monetization, I mean, I don't think Facebook ever will make money on React, the web framework that everyone seems to use now.

474
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:10,060
And that seems fine to them.

475
00:35:10,220 --> 00:35:13,960
And so, I mean, I guess that question of monetization, I guess, question was, do you care?

476
00:35:14,220 --> 00:35:16,240
And for plenty of folks, folks don't care to monetize.

477
00:35:16,300 --> 00:35:26,740
But when I look at who seems to have purposely wanted to make money on this, let's assume that group of people, people who want to earn money on software, you know, historically, it's been like, well, just do support.

478
00:35:27,060 --> 00:35:32,940
Like, hey, you use Redis, you use this database, you use this backup software, whatever, pay us to help support it.

479
00:35:33,220 --> 00:35:34,420
That seems okay.

480
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:42,940
I just haven't seen a whole lot of companies make a giant business on support, especially because a successful open source project seems to have a good community around it.

481
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,880
And so, yes, you get maybe, you know, one hour response time SLA or things like that.

482
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:49,920
But you can find tools, you can find expertise.

483
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:51,520
It's not proprietary knowledge.

484
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:52,520
It's public knowledge.

485
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,400
So I haven't seen a ton of success with support.

486
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:57,460
Some companies clearly make something on it.

487
00:35:58,100 --> 00:36:02,120
The one that seems more compelling to me is the packaging and updating.

488
00:36:02,260 --> 00:36:03,280
We just talked about patching.

489
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:11,080
You know, my boss, Ian Andrews, has mentioned that we could almost continue to sell Cloud Foundry if all we did was just package it for people and update it.

490
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:19,020
Like, that alone is worth so much for people compared to CI-ing it yourself and integrating it and testing it and deploying it and rolling out.

491
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,360
Like, that is a giant pain point for any sort of complex software.

492
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:23,820
Packaging is a big deal.

493
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,860
Red Hat does that with Red Hat Enterprise Linux and others.

494
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,380
So it seems like the packaging story sometimes gets underrated.

495
00:36:30,500 --> 00:36:34,160
But that is a super valuable reason people actually would pay for software.

496
00:36:34,740 --> 00:36:35,200
Yeah, yeah.

497
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:43,600
Yeah, I mean, not to damage my own foot by trying to trivialize it, right?

498
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:49,020
But the curation of your enterprise IT stack is incredibly valuable.

499
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:55,220
And not only updating it, but like, you know, we like to say we have an opinion aid stack and all of that.

500
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,900
But just the whole idea of this is the stuff that fits together.

501
00:36:58,900 --> 00:37:01,100
And these are the choices that you should have.

502
00:37:01,260 --> 00:37:02,840
And here's how you should run it.

503
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:09,860
And then to your point, like, as updates come out, like, here's updates for it and new features added to it.

504
00:37:09,940 --> 00:37:28,980
I remember in the 2000s, there was, to use the passive voice purposely, there was this idea of, like, patronage to make sure that open source was this common good around enterprises and you should just pay for it.

505
00:37:28,980 --> 00:37:34,780
Which I think a lot of the purely open source people, like, they were kind of, like, hoping this would be the case.

506
00:37:35,740 --> 00:37:48,240
But there is something to be said for, you know, you do need to have someone who curates this stuff together and builds on top of it and helps keep it updated and adds new features to it.

507
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,260
And, you know, I think, you know, there's several companies.

508
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:56,620
Like, you highlighted that WSO2, like, actually came out with some public figures, which is fun.

509
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:58,000
It's always good to peer into that.

510
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:03,220
By my read there, last year, they should have had a 2% profit margin, which is good.

511
00:38:03,540 --> 00:38:06,400
It's good to eke that out on selling supposedly free things.

512
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:08,860
And their trajectory looked nice and all that.

513
00:38:08,860 --> 00:38:14,940
But, you know, I think this gets to kind of, like, drag along to the next point.

514
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:21,780
On the other hand, like, there is closed source stuff you can still sell, right?

515
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:27,560
And I think when you look at the bulk of open source, especially, like, in the space we operate in, right?

516
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:51,080
So if you have someone to bring them up again, like Netflix or Lyft or whatever, open sourcing all these separate, I don't even know what to call them anymore, middleware thingies and services, like, there is something to be said for, like, a unified package of that stuff that you can easily install and have operational stuff written around it and taking it and packaging it up to be run.

517
00:38:51,340 --> 00:38:55,520
And I think, I think, I think, what is this?

518
00:38:55,700 --> 00:39:07,240
I'm always thinking if I should say five or 10 years, but over the last significant amount of years, I think there's a huge market acceptance of, like, buyers saying, I don't want to cobble all that stuff together.

519
00:39:07,340 --> 00:39:08,500
Someone else just do that.

520
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:13,100
And you can even have closed source things wrapped around it and just sell that to me, right?

521
00:39:13,100 --> 00:39:22,440
Like, I know I should be doing all these things, but just help me get it up and running and be the people that we basically outsource product management of this stack to.

522
00:39:23,140 --> 00:39:27,100
And that seems to be a viable business model that buyers tolerate.

523
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:29,600
Yeah, you just described public cloud, right?

524
00:39:29,660 --> 00:39:39,980
I mean, that's the as a service delivery model is I'm going to deliver this open source, whether that's a Postgres database or it's a messaging engine or whatever, I'm going to deliver it as a service.

525
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:41,440
I'll take care of packaging and updating.

526
00:39:41,580 --> 00:39:46,300
I might even add some proprietary extensions, which companies do for regular software, too, right?

527
00:39:46,300 --> 00:39:52,240
Pivotal or Confluent with Kafka or others is you add some other value or you have professional services.

528
00:39:52,420 --> 00:39:57,880
But as a service seems to be the way that many companies, especially in the cloud, have said, this is our contribution to open source.

529
00:39:58,020 --> 00:39:59,440
We're going to actually make it easier to use.

530
00:39:59,660 --> 00:40:03,640
So you don't need to assemble this stuff yourself, maintain it, update it.

531
00:40:03,820 --> 00:40:07,340
And that, again, seems to be fairly successful, at least for the mega vendors.

532
00:40:07,460 --> 00:40:14,180
I don't know how much a small money they're making their MongoDB as a service somewhere, their Rabbit as a service, their Kafka as a service.

533
00:40:14,500 --> 00:40:15,500
Are they actually making money?

534
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:16,060
I don't know.

535
00:40:16,420 --> 00:40:20,920
But that seems like yet another way you could monetize and simplify a bit.

536
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:30,180
So then maybe to kind of start to wrap up, I think being at vendors, we're obsessed with the vendor strategy and all that kind of stuff.

537
00:40:30,240 --> 00:40:52,040
But I always – I think the obvious other side of it is so if you're, as I was saying, a buyer or you're a regular organization, I think it is – it's always worth spending time thinking about, like, so if I use this open source stuff, like, what – I don't even know what – I'm not going to suggest what the answers are.

538
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,820
But, like, what are the questions I should have when I'm sourcing this stuff?

539
00:40:55,820 --> 00:41:08,500
Like, as a historic example, dating my knowledge of programming, you know, maybe when struts 0.8 came out, it was worth wondering how long is this thing going to be around?

540
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:15,280
Like, if I'm going to – as you can decode from URLs that you can still see, there's a fair amount of that still running around.

541
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:21,640
So it's proven to be, like, a long-term, strategically valuable thing for people to choose to use.

542
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:29,540
But there probably is, like, a good list of questions to ask around open source things beyond the usual ones that we would care about.

543
00:41:29,620 --> 00:41:31,540
Like, is there a commercial company behind it?

544
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:35,140
Like, I mean, that's sort of, like, sure, that's a good question to ask.

545
00:41:35,340 --> 00:41:43,400
And then – but then that just begs the question of, like, what's the long-term viability and quality of that commercial company, which is back to the regular thing that you would ask about software acquisition.

546
00:41:43,580 --> 00:41:53,860
But in your experience, beyond the obvious one of the commercial company backing it, like, what do you think people should look at when they're figuring out which open source things to use?

547
00:41:55,500 --> 00:41:57,520
Yeah, I mean, I would probably – I don't know.

548
00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:58,380
Two things jump out.

549
00:41:58,440 --> 00:41:59,240
I would look at the market.

550
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:01,100
Is the market starved for skills?

551
00:42:01,380 --> 00:42:03,300
Like, if I can't find people who know this thing.

552
00:42:03,300 --> 00:42:03,960
That's a good one.

553
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,000
I don't care how good the tech is.

554
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,300
I'm going to – 10 years from now, it's going to be even worse.

555
00:42:08,780 --> 00:42:12,760
So if I can't find people who know it, it doesn't matter how brilliant the tech is.

556
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:13,980
I probably should pass on it.

557
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,640
And then second one, I think, is look at the extensibility of it.

558
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,340
Is this thing – do I have to go into the guts of the source code to make a small change?

559
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:26,280
Or does it have a sort of extensibility model that says, yeah, let's say, again, example, Cloud Foundry.

560
00:42:26,300 --> 00:42:28,920
I want to bring Haskell as a programming language.

561
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:30,900
Do I have to actually change Cloud Foundry?

562
00:42:31,020 --> 00:42:34,400
Or is there a way that that just bolts onto an architecture like we do with BuildPack?

563
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:35,240
So the answer is yes.

564
00:42:35,580 --> 00:42:45,180
So is this thing built to purposely let myself extend it so that it has a longer life and I don't have to fundamentally recompile the software every time I want to make incremental changes?

565
00:42:45,300 --> 00:42:55,960
Or is it just one big kind of monolithic ball of mud that if I had to take ownership of because that company went out of business or something, I would have to literally know everything to function with this thing.

566
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,480
So if I look at extensibility, I would look at skills.

567
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,200
If I can't feel comfortable with those two things, I would pass.

568
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:01,900
Yeah, yeah.

569
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:03,460
I think the skills is a good point.

570
00:43:03,460 --> 00:43:12,880
It's interesting in the open source conversation that's always about the role of individuals comes up over and over again, right?

571
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:18,920
Like we started off with that it's a good morale booster and people want to work on open source things.

572
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:25,480
And the point you raise is good is like, well, you're going to have to have programmers that you hire using and working on this stuff.

573
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,780
So you should make sure there's ones you can hire that know it.

574
00:43:29,940 --> 00:43:37,080
So the role of people and skills, obviously, always very critical in these things.

575
00:43:37,300 --> 00:43:55,300
Yeah, I mean, I think back when I used to talk to people about this and advise them, like the one thing I was always trying to build heuristics around was the, I don't know, I guess like as I was alluding to in my leading questions, like the long-term viability and stability of it, which is sort of a chicken and an egg problem, right?

576
00:43:55,300 --> 00:43:59,680
Like the open source project will have long-term viability if a lot of people use it.

577
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:02,700
And a lot of people will use it if it has long-term viability.

578
00:44:04,140 --> 00:44:17,000
So at some point, I mean, and in the history of various open source things, that's why there are important moments, for example, with Linux, when IBM and Oracle in the early 2000s were like, yeah, we're doing it.

579
00:44:17,260 --> 00:44:18,920
We're going to run our stuff on top of it.

580
00:44:18,940 --> 00:44:19,780
And then later SAP.

581
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:28,860
And so sometimes you just have to invent the egg or the chicken or whichever one on your own, like in some Jurassic Park lab, I guess.

582
00:44:29,820 --> 00:44:32,420
But there, I think, I think there's probably more organic things.

583
00:44:32,460 --> 00:44:42,880
And if I followed, I bet an interesting thing to follow would be like the last five or 10 years of JavaScript frameworks, because there's probably a good, like, we should assign the Red Monk people to go do this.

584
00:44:42,980 --> 00:44:44,000
This seems like their bag.

585
00:44:44,200 --> 00:45:00,780
But it would be interesting to see, like, what are three things you would describe about the five or so JavaScript frameworks that came and went and, like, what caused their rise and then their plateau of productivity and then their fall for each of them.

586
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:08,600
And it would be an interesting thought exercise of, like, and therefore, when you're selecting open source things to use, here's how you initially select things.

587
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:12,180
And when you start to end of life your use of some open source thing.

588
00:45:12,240 --> 00:45:14,440
And I don't know what those characteristics are.

589
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:37,640
But it definitely, I think, and this goes back to my joke about, like, the way that I've noticed that you fix most all IT problems is to actually fix them or actually do them is, that seems like another thing that's particularly important with open source, because there are so many options and you don't have money to use as leverage.

590
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:43,920
But it's good to actively manage the portfolio they're using and pay attention to the viability and the capability of the product.

591
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:52,160
So it's good to kind of keep an eye on how our, is this cheese smelling, to use a very old metaphor for it.

592
00:45:52,860 --> 00:46:07,280
And now, that may seem like some sort of gloom and doom thing, but I think having more options and having the ability to accurately ask that question and having all these public sources, whether it's GitHub or other things, to kind of get a sense of how popular and vibrant an open source community is.

593
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:15,220
I think, on the whole, open source wins that sort of, I don't know, capability that you need over closed source things.

594
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:22,020
Yeah, I mean, your JavaScript example is both great but awful because those frameworks seem to change every six months.

595
00:46:22,300 --> 00:46:22,380
Yeah.

596
00:46:22,460 --> 00:46:22,640
Right?

597
00:46:22,720 --> 00:46:28,420
Now, you almost wonder if we do a callback to what the very beginning of this podcast was, we talked about dev evangelism or advocacy.

598
00:46:28,720 --> 00:46:40,600
And you almost wonder, again, you'd have to research and see, do the companies who sponsor open source and have good dev advocacy programs help to build out that community up front so you don't have the same chicken and egg as, hey, this is really cool tech.

599
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:41,600
No one's using it yet.

600
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:43,700
We need to do proper advocacy for it.

601
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,180
That's what builds the community, keeps it healthy.

602
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:47,900
But, again, I have to fund those advocates.

603
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:53,500
So, you know, do some of those projects have a better life because advocates are actually building a community out?

604
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:54,120
Not sure.

605
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:58,000
But those are all things I'd probably keep an eye on when I'm picking an open source tech to bet on.

606
00:46:58,360 --> 00:46:58,600
Yeah.

607
00:46:58,800 --> 00:46:59,400
Yeah, for sure.

608
00:46:59,860 --> 00:47:00,240
Well, all right.

609
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,360
I think that's a good check-in on the way of open source things.

610
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:08,520
I mean, if I were to summarize it, just to go back to what I was saying, is, like, open source is pretty awesome.

611
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:28,260
It's pretty much impossible to argue that it's a bad idea and isn't beneficial and, indeed, should be, like, top of the list of things you think about when you're figuring out how to manage your IT and select things and criteria that you have.

612
00:47:28,260 --> 00:47:35,360
Which isn't to say that it doesn't win 100% of the time, so to speak, but it's normal.

613
00:47:35,820 --> 00:47:40,100
It's sort of like, you know, at least here in Austin.

614
00:47:40,300 --> 00:47:43,340
I don't know how it is in Seattle, but you can drink the tap water.

615
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:44,140
It's fine.

616
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:46,240
We don't need to speculate about the health of it.

617
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:47,480
That's true.

618
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:49,120
That's a weird analogy, I guess.

619
00:47:49,380 --> 00:47:53,620
I thought you were going with a raw water analogy, which would have been more exciting to talk about.

620
00:47:53,780 --> 00:47:54,300
There you go.

621
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:54,800
There you go.

622
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:58,260
But, as always, this has been Pivotal Conversations.

623
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:05,000
If you want to get all the most recent episodes and find the RSS feed, I mean, you can search around wherever you listen to this stuff.

624
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:11,920
But if you go to SoundCloud.com slash Pivotal Conversations, you can find all those episodes and other information.

625
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:20,560
And about every Thursday, we post the show notes, and there'll be those links that I was alluding to over at Pivotal.io slash podcast.

626
00:48:20,940 --> 00:48:34,140
And you can find our other podcasts there, Pivotal Insights, and also That Moment, which is a higher level podcast about how people have encountered moments where they need to change and things like that.

627
00:48:34,220 --> 00:48:39,620
And I saw we were nominated for some podcast award over at the Shorties for that moment.

628
00:48:39,700 --> 00:48:41,000
Yeah, it's a big deal.

629
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:43,920
So, you know, if you like that podcast, you should go vote for it.

630
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:47,700
I think you can vote once a day or something crazy, some sort of internet democracy.

631
00:48:48,020 --> 00:48:49,200
I don't know how that works out.

632
00:48:49,700 --> 00:48:52,620
But I went over there and voted for it because it's a good podcast.

633
00:48:52,820 --> 00:48:54,420
I remember one that I liked a lot.

634
00:48:54,520 --> 00:49:00,340
They had someone from Domino's talking about, you know, how you can order from your wrist and things like that.

635
00:49:00,580 --> 00:49:04,160
And equally, there's been a lot of good episodes at Pivotal Insights recently.

636
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:11,060
If you've been frustrated at the lack of hearing Richard and I's voice, there's plenty of good voices to hear over there.

637
00:49:11,220 --> 00:49:12,900
So you should check that one out as well.

638
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:14,680
And I don't know.

639
00:49:14,980 --> 00:49:18,260
I'm Coté, C-O-T-E, in Pivotal, I mean, in Twitter.

640
00:49:18,940 --> 00:49:20,700
Who are you over on Twitter?

641
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:25,500
Yeah, you can find me at rseroter, R-S-E-R-O-T-E-R.

642
00:49:25,780 --> 00:49:26,280
See, there you go.

643
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:31,920
We'll start the new year out with some shameless self-promotion, and then we can just not do it for the rest of the year.

644
00:49:32,380 --> 00:49:35,920
So we feel less sullied, as it were.

645
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:38,340
So with that, we'll see everyone next time.

646
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:38,980
Bye-bye.