1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,040 All right, well, here we are at, what is it, SpringOne Platform 2017. 2 00:00:03,340 --> 00:00:04,520 We're in the lovely Moscone Center. 3 00:00:04,620 --> 00:00:05,680 What do y'all think of this? 4 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:07,140 You like these mega high ceilings? 5 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:08,120 I think it's beautiful. 6 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:08,720 Massive. 7 00:00:09,180 --> 00:00:09,420 Yeah? 8 00:00:09,420 --> 00:00:09,660 It's amazing. 9 00:00:10,040 --> 00:00:10,500 It's pretty good. 10 00:00:10,580 --> 00:00:11,260 It's nice and quiet. 11 00:00:11,380 --> 00:00:13,500 It's very monastery-like at the moment. 12 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:15,500 We're here on the Monday before most everyone comes. 13 00:00:15,500 --> 00:00:20,320 Yeah, it's nice to be here with them before, like, 2,000 people, 3,000 people show up. 14 00:00:20,340 --> 00:00:21,480 Yeah, before the storm, like, no line to get a badge. 15 00:00:21,660 --> 00:00:22,360 That's pretty sweet. 16 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:23,420 That is pretty sweet. 17 00:00:23,980 --> 00:00:25,420 Rob was saying we could play football in here. 18 00:00:25,580 --> 00:00:26,180 Oh, yeah. 19 00:00:26,300 --> 00:00:27,500 So why don't y'all introduce yourselves? 20 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:28,060 You want to start? 21 00:00:28,060 --> 00:00:31,220 So I'm Ben Romito, developer at Great American Insurance. 22 00:00:31,740 --> 00:00:37,180 And I'm John Osborne, chief troublemaking officer for Great American Insurance. 23 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:37,600 Yeah. 24 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:38,700 Property and Casualty, yeah. 25 00:00:38,820 --> 00:00:39,840 Yeah, so what do y'all do? 26 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:47,360 So our company is an old, well-established, very successful specialty property and casualty company. 27 00:00:47,700 --> 00:00:56,100 So we have a bunch of business units, some subsidiaries, and we sell really cool insurance. 28 00:00:56,100 --> 00:01:00,780 Yeah, and you have a really nice office lobby, from what I was doing, the concourse. 29 00:01:01,020 --> 00:01:09,860 We do, our lab space, which is designed just like a pivotal lab, is in a hundred-year-old, beautiful building that's been in a few movies, actually. 30 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:11,000 Oh, which movies? 31 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:11,520 It's so pretty. 32 00:01:12,180 --> 00:01:15,160 It was one with, there was a Tom Hanks movie. 33 00:01:15,500 --> 00:01:15,720 Okay. 34 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:16,700 I think it was Rain Man. 35 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:17,320 Was it Rain Man? 36 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:18,380 Rain Man, I think. 37 00:01:18,700 --> 00:01:18,980 Yeah. 38 00:01:19,320 --> 00:01:20,080 There was a couple of them. 39 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:20,980 You can Google it. 40 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:22,700 Yeah, no, that's fun. 41 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:27,320 That's like fun, not being stuck in just like the tech world anymore. 42 00:01:27,500 --> 00:01:27,640 Yeah. 43 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,500 There's like actual places that have been around for more than five years. 44 00:01:30,620 --> 00:01:30,820 Yeah, right. 45 00:01:30,820 --> 00:01:32,580 They have like awesome buildings and everything. 46 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:33,180 Yeah. 47 00:01:33,180 --> 00:01:41,340 Yeah, the controversy moving into the lab was the beautiful windows that make up our fishbowl are so old, they're not tempered glass. 48 00:01:41,500 --> 00:01:46,040 So we had to put railing so nobody would knock a table through the window when we were playing ping pong. 49 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:46,420 Oh, really? 50 00:01:46,960 --> 00:01:47,580 That's funny. 51 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:48,320 Yeah, it was kind of fun. 52 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:48,400 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 53 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:49,700 They're like that thin stuff. 54 00:01:49,900 --> 00:01:50,240 Yeah, yeah. 55 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:58,300 I used to, the house I used to live in that we rent now, it had like, I don't know, it must have been glass that people fashioned from like old Coke bottles or something. 56 00:01:58,420 --> 00:01:58,600 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 57 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:00,800 It was ancient glass in it, but yeah, it is. 58 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:04,640 No, these are like 15 by 30 foot pieces of glass. 59 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:05,620 Yeah, it's fun. 60 00:02:05,780 --> 00:02:08,100 The kind of thing like in the headsucker proxy you jump out of. 61 00:02:08,340 --> 00:02:08,700 Exactly. 62 00:02:09,500 --> 00:02:14,640 Well, so you're here to give a talk and yourself as well, right? 63 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:15,340 I'm not speaking. 64 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:15,860 No, no. 65 00:02:15,860 --> 00:02:16,720 I'm here for learning. 66 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:19,220 You're just here for the enjoyment. 67 00:02:19,420 --> 00:02:20,040 And the swag. 68 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:20,440 Yeah. 69 00:02:20,640 --> 00:02:25,080 Yeah, Ben's one of the team members on our lab team, so I thought it'd be good if a few of them. 70 00:02:25,140 --> 00:02:26,480 He's the one breaking the glass, apparently. 71 00:02:26,580 --> 00:02:27,200 Yeah, apparently. 72 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:33,600 So why don't we talk a little bit about your talk and then we'll talk about some of the stuff y'all have been doing in the lab. 73 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:39,060 So I've, I don't know if worked is the right word, but I've witnessed you putting your talk together. 74 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,000 Give a little summary about what you're going to be speaking. 75 00:02:42,100 --> 00:02:42,880 This is like tomorrow. 76 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,060 Yeah, it's tomorrow and I'm freaking out about it. 77 00:02:45,140 --> 00:02:49,680 But the whole thing started back in, I think it was March or April. 78 00:02:49,860 --> 00:02:54,100 Brian Jimerson, who's a pivotal employee, gave me a call because he knew what we were working on. 79 00:02:54,180 --> 00:02:56,940 And he's like, hey, John, like, what do you think of this concept? 80 00:02:57,140 --> 00:03:01,560 Like, help us figure out how you did this because it's amazing what you guys have done in like six months. 81 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:03,200 Well, at that point, it was like four months. 82 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:03,540 Yeah. 83 00:03:03,980 --> 00:03:12,840 And so we talked it over a few times and we finally came up with this whole idea that we were actually doing this navigating the no. 84 00:03:12,940 --> 00:03:16,640 So like, how do you, how do you get around all the people who say, oh, it won't work here. 85 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:17,040 Yeah. 86 00:03:17,500 --> 00:03:20,920 Or this thing, nah, we're already perfectly optimized. 87 00:03:21,140 --> 00:03:22,420 There's no way we can get any better. 88 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:32,640 And like, how do you, how do you actually get through all that so you can get down to the business of learning how to write better software and buying a platform and doing the things that you need to do to go faster. 89 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:34,820 Because that's like the new normal, right? 90 00:03:34,940 --> 00:03:36,240 So how do you get back to normal? 91 00:03:37,380 --> 00:03:39,100 So I'm going to talk about that. 92 00:03:39,220 --> 00:03:40,360 No technical stuff. 93 00:03:40,460 --> 00:03:46,500 It's just going to be about, you know, if you're starting out and you want a plan or a way to get there, here's some ideas. 94 00:03:46,860 --> 00:03:47,080 Right. 95 00:03:47,260 --> 00:03:49,380 Helped me a lot and helped us get going. 96 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:51,680 And I think it'll be valuable. 97 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:58,340 So first of all, like, what do you think, what do you think makes people say no? 98 00:03:59,900 --> 00:04:13,400 Like, what's the, what's, what's the, uh, I'm trying to, I'm trying not to say what's the problem they have, but what gives them a comfort with how things are such that they don't, don't feel the need to put in the suffering and the effort to change. 99 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:13,700 Yeah. 100 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:17,380 I mean, a lot of people come from a position of, of, of battle. 101 00:04:17,540 --> 00:04:19,620 They have battle scars to get where they've gotten. 102 00:04:19,860 --> 00:04:20,100 Right. 103 00:04:20,140 --> 00:04:24,500 And so they feel like whatever the position they're in is fully optimized. 104 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:24,940 Uh-huh. 105 00:04:25,280 --> 00:04:28,960 So, so any further optimization just can't be possible, right? 106 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,920 So that's, that's, that's some, some people come from that position. 107 00:04:33,100 --> 00:04:43,240 You know, other people come from a position of, well, it can't work for us because, and there's all kinds of reasons, like, like our employees, you know, don't want to work eight to five. 108 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:45,760 They want to work seven 30 to four 30 or whatever. 109 00:04:45,980 --> 00:04:47,440 They want to be on different schedules. 110 00:04:47,660 --> 00:04:47,880 Yeah. 111 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:50,440 Or the technology just isn't a fit. 112 00:04:50,700 --> 00:04:52,780 Like Cloud Foundry just can't help us. 113 00:04:52,840 --> 00:04:53,740 We've scripted everything. 114 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:55,040 It's all perfect. 115 00:04:55,260 --> 00:04:57,840 There's no possible way we can, we can be better. 116 00:04:58,020 --> 00:05:07,220 So I think the point is there's all kinds of places people come from and it takes a little bit of, uh, craftiness to, to navigate around all that. 117 00:05:07,380 --> 00:05:07,500 Yeah. 118 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:07,860 Yeah. 119 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,820 To sort of get to a project plan that actually works. 120 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:12,560 And then, and then to that end of craftiness. 121 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:19,580 So when, uh, and I don't know, tell me if, if this isn't a helpful framing, but it seems like in an organization you have sort of, it's hierarchical. 122 00:05:19,580 --> 00:05:21,720 I mean, just in the classic way of thinking of it. 123 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,500 And then you've got like the top people and the middle people and the bottom people, right. 124 00:05:25,580 --> 00:05:27,480 The, the staff and the middle managers. 125 00:05:27,580 --> 00:05:29,340 And, um, I don't know what y'all call it. 126 00:05:29,660 --> 00:05:29,980 Leadership. 127 00:05:30,340 --> 00:05:30,660 Leadership. 128 00:05:30,660 --> 00:05:31,280 People seem to like to say. 129 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:36,900 Uh, and like, so when you're being crafty, like, where do you start? 130 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:38,560 Like, like, well, let me lay the table more. 131 00:05:38,620 --> 00:05:43,200 Like you want to change the way that you're doing software and introduce like, let's just say a more agile way. 132 00:05:43,260 --> 00:05:44,200 Do you want to deploy once a week? 133 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:44,520 Whatever. 134 00:05:44,700 --> 00:05:50,500 I mean, I mean, you want to, you want to change dramatically how, how you're doing your software and like, how do you start out? 135 00:05:50,540 --> 00:05:52,740 Like what's, how do you strategize beginning? 136 00:05:53,100 --> 00:05:53,500 Yeah. 137 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:54,640 So that's a great question. 138 00:05:54,840 --> 00:05:56,240 I started in two places. 139 00:05:56,460 --> 00:06:05,220 One is that I, I did find that among the, um, the ground troops, if you want to call them, um, there's a lot of excitement to do something different. 140 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:07,760 A lot of people have been doing the same thing for a long period of time. 141 00:06:07,840 --> 00:06:14,540 They see other companies going down different paths for technology and doing more modern type, um, activity. 142 00:06:14,700 --> 00:06:17,880 And so there's a lot of interest of them to like, just try something new. 143 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:23,940 So last year, actually, I, I took, uh, three key people to SpringOne Vegas last year. 144 00:06:24,180 --> 00:06:31,360 And that actually helped unlock a lot of things because they came back and they were evangelizing or whatever the word is to like all their buddies. 145 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,340 And, and so that was really good because it generated a lot of energy. 146 00:06:34,340 --> 00:06:36,460 And what, what types of people were those, those three? 147 00:06:36,540 --> 00:06:37,540 What worlds did they have? 148 00:06:37,840 --> 00:06:45,260 Um, they were, yeah, they're, um, architects, all, all really nice people, but they were, uh, they were, uh, basically in the architecture roles. 149 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:45,680 Okay. 150 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:50,680 Um, but they were highly respected by a lot of developers and stuff and they'd been around for a while. 151 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:56,360 So for them to come out and say something was really, some, some good respected technical leadership. 152 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:56,720 Yeah. 153 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:03,500 So strategically picking the right people there was, was really good to get started because, because it would be easy to have the door shut. 154 00:07:03,500 --> 00:07:08,560 So I took a little risk, but not really cause I'm, I knew them and they, they just came back and did a great job. 155 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:09,600 And, and what, what do you think? 156 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:21,740 Like, I mean, obviously I'm at pivotal, so it's just a pivotal experience that was awesome, but more realistically, like what are the characteristics of the event or the thing that you want to take them to that brings epiphany? 157 00:07:21,740 --> 00:07:28,100 It's not really too strong of a word, but that brings that at the very least a benefit of the doubt that we should start thinking about how we're changing things. 158 00:07:28,100 --> 00:07:29,880 If, if not more, like what are the triggers? 159 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:30,440 Yeah. 160 00:07:30,500 --> 00:07:41,680 I mean, I think the, some of the things really resonated with them as far as like having true, um, CICD and being able to push apps like right now, their, their current world. 161 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:53,880 They were coming from is a multi-week process and just all the normal hoops that you have to jump through if you're an old company with, with, with, you know, reasonably old infrastructure and you're just dealing with that problem. 162 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:54,160 Right. 163 00:07:54,260 --> 00:07:59,860 So, so I think that really resonated with them because they were working on a really big project that needed that kind of help. 164 00:07:59,940 --> 00:08:03,540 So they came back going, Hey, I think this will actually play out for us. 165 00:08:03,540 --> 00:08:11,240 So they had sort of like an existing problem and they were shown some, a glimmer of hope that there was, things could be addressed on there. 166 00:08:11,980 --> 00:08:12,340 Absolutely. 167 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:21,520 And if, you know, of course we talked about it before they went and they did all the prep work and, you know, made sure, um, the right sessions, um, were, uh, attended. 168 00:08:21,860 --> 00:08:26,860 And I think, I think it was just great, you know, a good mix of technology sessions and culture sessions. 169 00:08:26,860 --> 00:08:27,220 Yeah. 170 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:28,480 No, that's, that's interesting. 171 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:33,180 I mean, I forget if, if you and I talked about this or I dreamed it or what, where it ever came from. 172 00:08:33,180 --> 00:08:42,300 But like, it seems like, it seems like unless there is, to put it in the most dire ways, some external threat that makes it so you need to change. 173 00:08:42,300 --> 00:08:44,220 Like, it's almost like, why even try? 174 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:52,200 I mean, I mean, across the board, like if everything's fine and there's no motivation, if you have no problem, then you're just like gold plating. 175 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:52,880 Yeah. 176 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:53,120 Right. 177 00:08:53,120 --> 00:09:01,660 Even if you're doing something that's clearly more optimal, if there's no, if you don't need to, then it's, it almost seems like you should not try. 178 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:02,240 Yeah. 179 00:09:02,420 --> 00:09:13,900 I mean, it's interesting because, um, you know, we look at a lot of industries that are consumer facing and a lot of those companies are under extreme pressure by competition because you can swing millions of people with a great app, right? 180 00:09:13,980 --> 00:09:14,220 Yeah. 181 00:09:14,220 --> 00:09:16,580 I mean, this is played out in, I don't know how many different ways. 182 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:21,040 In our business, the assumption is as well, if that's not happening, then everything's fine. 183 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:27,760 And the reality is you can still underserved your business partners dramatically, but not be under market pressure. 184 00:09:28,220 --> 00:09:28,760 That's right. 185 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:44,380 And so in a way you're limiting the growth of your business partners because they're not being, their, their competition is internal and they can't, they can't actually gain some even better traction out of, because their IT group is just going too slow. 186 00:09:44,560 --> 00:09:44,800 Yeah. 187 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:44,900 Yeah. 188 00:09:44,900 --> 00:09:45,000 Yeah. 189 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:45,000 Yeah. 190 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:49,080 And, and, and, you know, there, maybe there's a superset word to threat, but it's almost to 191 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:50,060 use a super fancy word. 192 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:54,780 There's like an exogenous reason, like some, some reason outside of the core of what you're 193 00:09:54,780 --> 00:09:54,940 doing. 194 00:09:54,940 --> 00:09:57,880 And then what you're saying is, I mean, that's another motivation is like, well, we want to 195 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:01,480 grow this business and we want to make the business better for existing people. 196 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:06,860 And we know that it's, it's, it's almost like you self-create the problem of, we want to 197 00:10:06,860 --> 00:10:11,440 do better because, because that directly leads, you know, to, I don't know, more money or whatever 198 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:12,340 the answer is, right. 199 00:10:12,460 --> 00:10:13,620 And we know we need to improve that. 200 00:10:13,980 --> 00:10:14,500 So, so, okay. 201 00:10:14,500 --> 00:10:18,980 So then you, you get some people to like win them over and then you go back to, uh, your, 202 00:10:19,060 --> 00:10:20,340 your wonderful tiled ceiling. 203 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:22,540 Beautiful, beautiful building. 204 00:10:22,700 --> 00:10:24,900 And then, and then what's the work look after that? 205 00:10:24,980 --> 00:10:25,820 Like, how do you. 206 00:10:25,940 --> 00:10:29,300 So the work after that was a very much, uh, upward facing. 207 00:10:29,300 --> 00:10:35,880 So, um, trying to find business partners who had real problems that could be solved, trying 208 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:42,340 to find, um, a business case where we could justify licensing costs and training costs and 209 00:10:42,340 --> 00:10:46,520 at the same time, deliver some value and, and actually bring something to fruition. 210 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:51,680 So that, that is hard work and you have to dig around and you have to like have many revisions 211 00:10:51,680 --> 00:10:54,540 and you're going to fail a whole bunch of times like I did, I'm sure. 212 00:10:55,120 --> 00:11:01,920 And, but at the end of the day, you end up with this thing that is a reasonable expectation 213 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:07,000 of success plan that has some money in it and requires a little bit of investment, but 214 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,420 people start to believe that this could actually work. 215 00:11:09,860 --> 00:11:10,000 Yeah. 216 00:11:10,100 --> 00:11:10,300 Yeah. 217 00:11:10,460 --> 00:11:13,600 It sort of helps them imagine what it's going to be like. 218 00:11:13,820 --> 00:11:14,140 Yeah. 219 00:11:14,380 --> 00:11:18,620 Cause in order to like explain the business case, you have to say, well, here's the good 220 00:11:18,620 --> 00:11:21,120 things that are going to happen and here's the actual plan. 221 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,480 Here's how we're going to execute it and then here's how we're going to measure it. 222 00:11:24,540 --> 00:11:28,140 So we know that at the end of the day, we have something to compare with to say, yeah, 223 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:28,960 was it a fluke? 224 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:29,620 Was it real? 225 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:30,520 Was it not real? 226 00:11:30,740 --> 00:11:32,320 Does it really work here or not? 227 00:11:32,380 --> 00:11:35,940 Like ultimately the nose, you have to answer the question that they're asking, that they're 228 00:11:35,940 --> 00:11:36,200 saying. 229 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:36,440 Yeah. 230 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:36,720 Yeah. 231 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:37,460 It doesn't work here. 232 00:11:37,580 --> 00:11:38,640 Well, maybe it does. 233 00:11:38,680 --> 00:11:39,240 And here's why. 234 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:43,400 So, so in the, in this kind of change, like doing stuff more agilely or cloud native or 235 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:48,080 whatever, like what are the, what are like the sticky things in a business case you need 236 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:48,620 to figure out? 237 00:11:48,680 --> 00:11:52,460 Or I shouldn't say just sticky, but what are the, I mean, obviously it's sort of like we 238 00:11:52,460 --> 00:11:53,660 have labor costs, right? 239 00:11:53,660 --> 00:11:56,920 And then we're going to have licensed software costs and then we're going to make money somehow 240 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,860 and then whammo, it's green instead of red. 241 00:11:59,860 --> 00:12:04,500 But like, I imagine there's some other inputs, some more realistic inputs into the business 242 00:12:04,500 --> 00:12:05,900 case that are somewhat unique. 243 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:12,400 So I think so, but at the end of the day, most business cases are just benefit and costs. 244 00:12:12,500 --> 00:12:12,720 Yeah. 245 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:13,020 Right. 246 00:12:13,060 --> 00:12:15,340 And you have a return on investment and you're good. 247 00:12:15,740 --> 00:12:19,340 But I think what's really important is that the story comes with the business case that 248 00:12:19,340 --> 00:12:23,140 says, here's the value we want to generate, but we're going to do it this different way. 249 00:12:23,740 --> 00:12:27,200 So we're going to build in some licensing costs that we wouldn't have done before. 250 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,460 We're going to build in some training costs. 251 00:12:30,020 --> 00:12:33,760 We're going to build in some of these components that wouldn't normally be in the business case, 252 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:36,980 but we're going to do it as an experiment to answer these questions. 253 00:12:37,140 --> 00:12:37,960 Can we go faster? 254 00:12:38,820 --> 00:12:39,000 Yeah. 255 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:41,880 How do people react to that experiment thing in there? 256 00:12:42,620 --> 00:12:48,280 So the experiment thing is really important because it lets people feel more comfortable 257 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:50,620 that the world isn't going to change as quickly. 258 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:51,800 Right. 259 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:52,280 Right. 260 00:12:52,660 --> 00:13:00,620 So the experimentation piece is really a test of the assertion that we're perfect, right? 261 00:13:00,860 --> 00:13:01,100 Yeah. 262 00:13:01,100 --> 00:13:05,680 So if we experiment and we test and we find out, hey, there's actually some real savings 263 00:13:05,680 --> 00:13:09,920 here, then we can turn around and decide as a business, how would we invest this savings 264 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:11,380 if we actually took it? 265 00:13:11,660 --> 00:13:16,940 And do you find that sort of like the people you'd give a business case to, leadership and 266 00:13:16,940 --> 00:13:22,060 finance and people like that, do they, I mean, it's maybe counter to what people are thinking, 267 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,900 but I would imagine they enjoy experiments, like having options, right? 268 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,480 Everyone likes optionality who deals with spreadsheets. 269 00:13:29,580 --> 00:13:33,700 And so I would imagine to some extent, they're not used to IT coming to them and saying like, 270 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,020 we're going to experiment and try something new and get inputs. 271 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:40,740 And then this, I don't know, it almost gives them the tool to do something different than 272 00:13:40,740 --> 00:13:41,520 just oversight. 273 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:42,220 But I don't know. 274 00:13:42,260 --> 00:13:42,760 Is that the case? 275 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:46,820 You know, the really interesting, fascinating part, which caught me completely off guard 276 00:13:46,820 --> 00:13:51,340 for my process was that I had a business case for an actual project that we wanted to implement. 277 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:56,260 And so my CIO, basically, he approved it. 278 00:13:56,420 --> 00:13:58,100 And then he said, okay, now what do you want to do? 279 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:03,660 And like, they changed the project out right away and said, well, you've demonstrated that 280 00:14:03,660 --> 00:14:04,540 the value is there. 281 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,100 So let's find the right project and not worry about the return. 282 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:11,360 Let's find out what the results are going to be and worry about that piece. 283 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:12,600 And we'll worry about the money later. 284 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,680 It's more important to discover, is this going to work? 285 00:14:15,780 --> 00:14:17,020 Then am I going to make a dollar? 286 00:14:17,380 --> 00:14:17,960 Right, right, right. 287 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:18,880 Because it's an experiment. 288 00:14:18,900 --> 00:14:23,040 You got early buy-in to like, let's try out to see if this way of thinking works out. 289 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:25,740 And then we'll worry about the hardcore stuff. 290 00:14:25,820 --> 00:14:29,540 But I still had to do the work to say there's actual value available. 291 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:30,180 Yeah. 292 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:34,860 I mean, that's what I always found working in strategy is there's, kind of like you're 293 00:14:34,860 --> 00:14:36,800 describing, there's kind of like three phases. 294 00:14:36,980 --> 00:14:39,760 There's this idea is crazy enough to work. 295 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:40,120 Right. 296 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:44,960 And then there's like, now I'm almost going to, it's almost like hazing. 297 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,320 It's like, I'm going to make you go do all of this work that then I'll reveal to you 298 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,340 was actually not necessary because I was going to let you do it anyways. 299 00:14:51,940 --> 00:14:55,120 And like gauge your commitment to it and see if it actually works out. 300 00:14:55,260 --> 00:14:58,580 And then if that works out, then you're going to do a whole bunch of actual hard 301 00:14:58,580 --> 00:14:59,060 wheel work. 302 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:00,220 So are you saying I was played? 303 00:15:01,340 --> 00:15:05,880 Well, I mean, I think, I think it's basic, like, uh, I thought I was driving like basic, 304 00:15:06,020 --> 00:15:06,720 basic management. 305 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:10,140 Think of like, I mean, if they really want to do it, let's figure it out and draw the 306 00:15:10,140 --> 00:15:10,620 guidelines. 307 00:15:10,620 --> 00:15:16,200 I mean, that is like, that is, I mean, I, I hesitate to put it this way, but there is 308 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:17,960 some fun in working in a business case. 309 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:23,180 Cause I think, I think you described one thing that I think most people would assume 310 00:15:23,180 --> 00:15:26,960 you don't have is you do have to come up with a story, right? 311 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,120 Like, like there's a huge, it has to be a narrative. 312 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:29,440 Yeah. 313 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,820 There's a huge creative element to it of like what we're doing here and how's this 314 00:15:32,820 --> 00:15:33,440 going to pan out. 315 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,860 And the numbers just kind of are the safety net for all of that. 316 00:15:37,060 --> 00:15:37,340 Absolutely. 317 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,160 The numbers mean you're not going to get fired if it doesn't work. 318 00:15:40,300 --> 00:15:40,460 Yeah. 319 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:40,780 Yeah. 320 00:15:41,100 --> 00:15:48,000 And then, and then, and then, and then so, so like just, I mean, there'll be a recording 321 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,060 of your talk that people can check out and everything, but like kind of at the, what does 322 00:15:52,060 --> 00:15:53,120 the end state look like? 323 00:15:53,260 --> 00:15:58,720 Like when you get towards the end of your phase of doing things, it's almost like those initial 324 00:15:58,720 --> 00:15:59,280 successes. 325 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,720 And then you get the chance after that to scale it out some more, but how do you know when 326 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:03,840 you're at the end? 327 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:05,340 So that's really interesting. 328 00:16:05,820 --> 00:16:12,340 Um, there's still, um, some skepticism that our first project was, uh, wildly successful. 329 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:17,720 Uh, I think that's starting to, I think that's starting to, uh, dissipate. 330 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:23,320 But, um, one thing, it actually won't be my talk, but that I was maybe next year, like 331 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:24,180 2.0 already. 332 00:16:24,580 --> 00:16:28,880 Uh, one thing I was caught off guard about was the first project, um, was actually so smooth 333 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:35,280 and so well executed by both pivotal and great American employees, um, that it's now real. 334 00:16:35,460 --> 00:16:39,700 So figuring out what to do next has become like a problem. 335 00:16:39,700 --> 00:16:44,360 Like people don't want to decide what's next and I don't want it to be my world that changes. 336 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:45,360 How about your world? 337 00:16:45,460 --> 00:16:45,580 Yeah. 338 00:16:45,660 --> 00:16:46,620 It's very fascinating. 339 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:52,180 I, I, uh, I didn't think the ramp part would be harder than the start part, but it's turning 340 00:16:52,180 --> 00:16:52,820 out that way. 341 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:53,320 Yeah. 342 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:54,480 Yeah. 343 00:16:54,600 --> 00:17:00,440 I mean, I guess there is oftentimes a phase in change management where it's be careful. 344 00:17:00,540 --> 00:17:03,720 You don't inadvertently get drawn and quartered, right? 345 00:17:03,780 --> 00:17:06,840 Like, like, don't get ripped apart by your success. 346 00:17:06,860 --> 00:17:11,220 So we've made the decision to scale and now, now we have to decide what to do. 347 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:11,640 Yeah. 348 00:17:11,740 --> 00:17:11,920 Yeah. 349 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,820 That's a little, that's a little more complicated than I thought it was going to be. 350 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:15,940 That's true. 351 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:17,980 But we're still doing it. 352 00:17:18,220 --> 00:17:23,260 So, so, so how many at this point, like how many, uh, I don't know, we're supposed to 353 00:17:23,260 --> 00:17:27,680 say product instead of project, but whatever, how many projects, how many things do you say 354 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,240 that you've tried out by now or have been in this umbrella of stuff? 355 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:38,680 We have maybe four to six roughly after how long, how long after we started in July. 356 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,400 So now it's pretty quick early in December. 357 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:42,620 So yeah, yeah, pretty quick. 358 00:17:43,100 --> 00:17:47,680 Um, and we have tons and tons more that we could just dive in our, you know, the, the ramping 359 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:50,540 has more to do with getting people up to speed than technology. 360 00:17:50,620 --> 00:17:52,460 Frankly, the technology is the easy part. 361 00:17:52,540 --> 00:17:52,940 Yeah. 362 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:59,400 Getting people in the methodology and, and, and pairing, teaching that and all these different 363 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,860 aspects of the cultural changes is the hard part. 364 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:02,260 Yeah. 365 00:18:02,340 --> 00:18:04,400 But getting access to people is hard also. 366 00:18:04,620 --> 00:18:04,860 Yeah. 367 00:18:04,900 --> 00:18:05,120 Yeah. 368 00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:05,300 Yeah. 369 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,800 Getting people to move from one department to another is very challenging. 370 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:09,880 That's always everyone problem. 371 00:18:10,060 --> 00:18:13,720 I mean, I imagine like, even if you want to find people to dig holes, it's probably hard 372 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:14,260 to find them. 373 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:14,880 Yeah. 374 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:15,200 Yeah. 375 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:16,680 Exactly. 376 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:20,740 Getting people to come do work for you is a perennial constant task. 377 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:21,680 Sometimes it's difficult. 378 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:27,240 So, so then speaking of what, uh, how did you get involved in all of this stuff? 379 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:32,580 So when the opportunity arose, it was, um, a volunteer basis for developers to basically 380 00:18:32,580 --> 00:18:35,160 join this team to go out to Denver for 11 weeks. 381 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,420 And how did they recruit that volunteering thing? 382 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,100 Was it in some little email newsletter that was telling you to think about trees or they 383 00:18:41,100 --> 00:18:41,740 come talk to you? 384 00:18:41,940 --> 00:18:46,280 No, uh, there's a, my manager kind of briefly touched on it and told me to start talking 385 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:50,260 to John and see, you know, really what the real deal was and what was all behind it. 386 00:18:50,260 --> 00:18:54,380 And then I think there's some, uh, corporate communications that got sent out and there's 387 00:18:54,380 --> 00:18:59,980 like a, a formal, um, application where we basically just sent an email saying, you know, 388 00:18:59,980 --> 00:19:01,380 why would we want to be a part of the team? 389 00:19:01,700 --> 00:19:01,880 Yeah. 390 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:03,780 We did some, uh, lunch and learns and stuff. 391 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:04,140 Yeah. 392 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:04,320 Yeah. 393 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:05,540 And then there was a brochure too. 394 00:19:05,620 --> 00:19:06,360 Remember the brochure? 395 00:19:06,360 --> 00:19:06,820 A brochure? 396 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:07,180 Yeah. 397 00:19:07,220 --> 00:19:08,120 We made a brochure. 398 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:08,520 Wow. 399 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:09,700 Like a little triptych thing? 400 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:10,280 Internally. 401 00:19:10,340 --> 00:19:10,580 Yeah. 402 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:11,240 Tri-fold. 403 00:19:11,460 --> 00:19:11,900 That's awesome. 404 00:19:11,900 --> 00:19:13,580 We have our own great printing department. 405 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:14,500 They printed it up. 406 00:19:14,620 --> 00:19:15,460 It was, it was pretty awesome. 407 00:19:15,580 --> 00:19:15,760 Huh. 408 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:17,240 You'll have to find some of those. 409 00:19:17,300 --> 00:19:17,460 Yeah. 410 00:19:17,500 --> 00:19:18,120 Put on the shelf. 411 00:19:18,300 --> 00:19:18,620 Exactly. 412 00:19:19,020 --> 00:19:20,420 I had one of my desk left over. 413 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:21,140 Yeah. 414 00:19:21,220 --> 00:19:21,460 Yeah. 415 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:23,980 So, so then what, what, what, uh, what made you want to do it? 416 00:19:24,700 --> 00:19:28,100 Um, really, I mean, I guess kind of what John was saying before, where is it with the way 417 00:19:28,100 --> 00:19:30,560 the three architects that went out with them to, to Vegas? 418 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:31,720 I mean, it's super exciting. 419 00:19:32,180 --> 00:19:32,400 Yeah. 420 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:36,420 Um, I mean the new, a new space, something different, something that's, that's, you know, 421 00:19:36,420 --> 00:19:40,060 you're getting all over, over all these hurdles that is slowing your job down. 422 00:19:40,060 --> 00:19:45,340 And now you tell me that all goes away and I can develop full speed and have a blast and 423 00:19:45,340 --> 00:19:48,740 be able to deploy, you know, in a day rather than in three weeks. 424 00:19:48,740 --> 00:19:50,800 I mean, that all sounded, you know, super awesome. 425 00:19:50,980 --> 00:19:51,080 Yeah. 426 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:51,320 Yeah. 427 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:53,740 And then moving to Denver for three months. 428 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:55,380 Oh, and then you got to move too. 429 00:19:55,540 --> 00:19:55,660 Yeah. 430 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:56,880 Well, at least for a temporary trip. 431 00:19:56,900 --> 00:19:57,120 Temporary. 432 00:19:57,220 --> 00:19:57,300 Right. 433 00:19:57,300 --> 00:19:59,520 What are they, you get an apartment for that or something or? 434 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:04,740 Um, yeah, I jumped around between Airbnbs, but I was pretty much open to however you 435 00:20:04,740 --> 00:20:05,220 figured it out. 436 00:20:05,460 --> 00:20:05,580 Yeah. 437 00:20:05,580 --> 00:20:06,960 They need to have a loyalty program. 438 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,680 Then I'd stay there more, but anyhow, it's good for family. 439 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:12,940 But so, so what was your, your background coming into it? 440 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:18,440 So, so coming into it, I was, um, I've been at the company for two years full time, uh, 441 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:19,280 as a .NET developer. 442 00:20:19,420 --> 00:20:24,280 So I was in the windows world using, you know, ASP.NET and C sharp and visual studio. 443 00:20:24,380 --> 00:20:29,200 And then coming into the project and the engagement, I was basically told you're going to switch 444 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:29,860 to Java. 445 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,780 You're going to switch to IntelliJ and you're going to switch to Mac OS X. 446 00:20:33,100 --> 00:20:33,280 All right. 447 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:39,480 So it was, uh, kind of a full shift for me that granted, I mean, uh, C sharp is, is Microsoft's 448 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:39,720 Java. 449 00:20:39,940 --> 00:20:41,600 So there was a lot of things that were very similar. 450 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:46,740 Um, but I mean, it's still pretty intimidating to go, go up with some new things and the syntax 451 00:20:46,740 --> 00:20:52,460 changes and, uh, to go with, uh, you know, the pivots, you know, these world-class experienced 452 00:20:52,460 --> 00:20:56,560 developers is a little intimidating, but you know, within three weeks doing the whole pairing 453 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,260 process, I mean, like I was up to speed, feeling pretty confident. 454 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:00,560 It was pretty incredible. 455 00:21:00,940 --> 00:21:01,100 Yeah. 456 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,420 So what's that, what's that like pairing with despite working here, I've never actually 457 00:21:04,420 --> 00:21:05,320 paired with anyone. 458 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:12,080 They always try to do it sort of in marketing and then I tell them no, but it's like, what 459 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:12,460 are you going to do? 460 00:21:12,500 --> 00:21:14,080 Like stare at some texts and be like, I don't know. 461 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:16,760 I think we should use the word for there. 462 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:21,200 Or like, how do you spell necessary? 463 00:21:21,700 --> 00:21:22,240 Like, I mean, I don't know. 464 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:26,260 It's, it's, uh, it's, if you really think about it, it's like talking out loud and thinking 465 00:21:26,260 --> 00:21:26,740 out loud. 466 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:27,360 Hot tacos. 467 00:21:28,020 --> 00:21:28,560 That's right. 468 00:21:29,260 --> 00:21:31,580 It is really, I think that's one of the best benefits. 469 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,300 And then you've also got the, the training, whereas if you're pairing with somebody who 470 00:21:35,300 --> 00:21:38,520 knows more, you know, is a little bit more experienced where you're going to get up to 471 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:40,020 speed in something much, much faster. 472 00:21:40,140 --> 00:21:43,860 So in my case, you know, I didn't know much Java syntax, you know, this, the difference 473 00:21:43,860 --> 00:21:44,260 is there. 474 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,180 Whereas I just asked my pair, Hey, how do, how do I do this? 475 00:21:47,260 --> 00:21:48,100 This is what I want to do. 476 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:49,380 You know, they, you know, instantly. 477 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:49,880 Right. 478 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:51,780 And what kind of project were you working on? 479 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:52,540 Like, what did it do? 480 00:21:53,020 --> 00:21:53,940 Just a web application. 481 00:21:53,940 --> 00:21:58,020 So, I mean, your, your standard MVC kind of stuff and, you know, your backend and your front 482 00:21:58,020 --> 00:21:59,780 end and the sorts of things. 483 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:03,360 So you think it took about three weeks or so to come up to speed on like Java? 484 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:03,920 Yeah. 485 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:04,160 Yeah. 486 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,380 So I've already had experience in the object oriented world. 487 00:22:06,500 --> 00:22:11,080 So, I mean, I already knew most of the concepts, but I was actually using the tools and knowing 488 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,260 where everything was and some keyboard shortcuts. 489 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,020 I mean, when you first, keyboard shortcuts, when you first sit down with those pivots, man, 490 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:18,700 they fly, they're going all over the place. 491 00:22:18,820 --> 00:22:18,980 Yeah. 492 00:22:18,980 --> 00:22:19,200 Yeah. 493 00:22:19,380 --> 00:22:20,880 Ask them, wait a minute, do that again. 494 00:22:21,120 --> 00:22:21,620 Show me again. 495 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:22,100 Stop. 496 00:22:22,360 --> 00:22:22,940 Unplug your keyboard. 497 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:23,480 Let me do it. 498 00:22:23,580 --> 00:22:25,480 You know, it's just, just that kind of stuff. 499 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,020 And then, and then, so how long, how long did you like work a day when you're doing 500 00:22:29,020 --> 00:22:29,260 that? 501 00:22:29,260 --> 00:22:30,760 Like how, how did you break up the day? 502 00:22:30,900 --> 00:22:32,480 And cause I, had you, had you done pairing stuff? 503 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:32,640 No. 504 00:22:32,700 --> 00:22:35,800 So this was my first time doing pairing and that's where the, that intimidation came in. 505 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:37,780 You know, you got to admit that you don't know some things. 506 00:22:37,860 --> 00:22:41,220 You got to admit that the first time you write something that might not be the best and you 507 00:22:41,220 --> 00:22:43,960 know, and that's part of what it's about, you know, they're going to make you better. 508 00:22:44,020 --> 00:22:45,460 They're going to catch your, your typos. 509 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,540 They're going to, they're going to catch those small things or you start going down the 510 00:22:48,540 --> 00:22:49,020 wrong path. 511 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:50,020 They're going to get you right away. 512 00:22:51,620 --> 00:22:55,320 But I mean, it was like, you know, you come in, you work, you have a four hour section 513 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,260 before lunch and a four hour section afterwards and you're focused that whole time. 514 00:22:58,500 --> 00:23:01,160 We'll take a 15 minute break in the middle for ping pong. 515 00:23:01,580 --> 00:23:01,840 Yeah. 516 00:23:01,900 --> 00:23:03,160 Another little pairing activity. 517 00:23:03,420 --> 00:23:03,660 Yeah. 518 00:23:03,860 --> 00:23:07,640 We have our little breaks, but for the most part, I mean, you're zoned in, you're focused, 519 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:08,900 you're, it's a constant conversation. 520 00:23:09,260 --> 00:23:09,360 Right. 521 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:09,620 Right. 522 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:14,760 And, and so, uh, have you, have you had the chance to like pair with other new people after 523 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,720 this or, or like, like, have you, have you moved over to the side of being the instructor? 524 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:19,240 Yeah. 525 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:19,480 Yeah. 526 00:23:19,500 --> 00:23:24,360 So basically when we were out in Denver, um, maybe I guess eight or so weeks in, we had 527 00:23:24,360 --> 00:23:25,240 another guy come out. 528 00:23:25,460 --> 00:23:28,200 And so there was a chance that you could kind of, you know, get him up to speed. 529 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,640 And then when we came back to the lab, we have an intern that we've all had a chance 530 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,200 to basically sit with and kind of get her up to speed and, you know, within about a week 531 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,480 and a half, she was there with us, you know, right along. 532 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:38,740 And it wasn't like she was new anymore. 533 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:39,500 You know, she was. 534 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:41,280 So, so then on both sides of that experience. 535 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:45,740 So being the new person, like what are, I don't know, what, what are some things you 536 00:23:45,740 --> 00:23:48,100 didn't realize that would be like good tips to tell people? 537 00:23:48,180 --> 00:23:52,920 Like, here's, here's a tactic you should use to make this go well, or here's a thing 538 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,700 you should ask about, or here's something you should avoid, or like, uh, I assume it's 539 00:23:56,700 --> 00:23:57,620 good to shower each day. 540 00:23:57,620 --> 00:23:58,040 Oh yeah. 541 00:23:58,140 --> 00:23:58,380 Yeah. 542 00:23:58,420 --> 00:23:58,740 Absolutely. 543 00:23:59,040 --> 00:23:59,440 Absolutely. 544 00:23:59,640 --> 00:23:59,960 Absolutely. 545 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:00,720 I mean, general hygiene. 546 00:24:00,820 --> 00:24:01,240 Yeah, of course. 547 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,000 Uh, that's just a good life tip in general. 548 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,820 Well, I don't know if you work from home, you'd save a lot of water, but anyways, go ahead. 549 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:12,360 Um, really is being, being open and being honest and, and asking lots of questions. 550 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,820 Uh, no matter what happens, you're going to argue, you're going to, you're going to butt 551 00:24:15,820 --> 00:24:21,200 heads at some point and being able to have a logical, rational discussion and not letting 552 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:22,460 your emotions kind of take hold. 553 00:24:22,580 --> 00:24:22,860 Okay. 554 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:24,200 No, that makes a lot of sense. 555 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,980 Which that's, that's a very hard thing to kind of, kind of do in the moment. 556 00:24:27,220 --> 00:24:27,460 Yeah. 557 00:24:27,460 --> 00:24:28,840 You know, you get a little bit of an ego. 558 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:29,720 You want to be right. 559 00:24:29,860 --> 00:24:32,300 You want, you know, no one likes being told they're wrong. 560 00:24:32,420 --> 00:24:32,980 No one likes being told. 561 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:33,020 Yeah. 562 00:24:33,020 --> 00:24:37,540 It's hard to shift into that pedagogical mode on both sides of the, uh, keyboard as it 563 00:24:37,540 --> 00:24:37,620 were. 564 00:24:37,620 --> 00:24:37,760 Yeah. 565 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,780 So being, being open-minded and, you know, wanting to learn. 566 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:41,320 Yeah. 567 00:24:41,340 --> 00:24:43,400 That's the, I think those are the huge key things. 568 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,400 So then on, when, when, when you start doing the instructing side of thing, what were some 569 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,720 things that you like sort of tripped up a bit on where you had to be like, Oh wait, I'm, 570 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,660 I'm part of what I'm trying to do here is instruct someone new. 571 00:24:52,700 --> 00:24:52,920 Yeah. 572 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:53,800 You got to slow down. 573 00:24:53,940 --> 00:24:57,760 That's, that's the hardest part is thinking is you want to go at the same speed that you're 574 00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:59,600 going with, with someone that knows everything already. 575 00:24:59,780 --> 00:25:00,140 Yeah. 576 00:25:00,140 --> 00:25:03,660 And whenever they, they got to stop and ask questions or they might let you kind of do 577 00:25:03,660 --> 00:25:03,940 something. 578 00:25:03,940 --> 00:25:06,260 And then 10 minutes later, like, wait a minute, I don't get this. 579 00:25:06,380 --> 00:25:08,500 And you know, you got to go back and kind of re-explain. 580 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:09,040 Yeah. 581 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,100 But that's all, that's all part of the process of getting up to speed. 582 00:25:11,500 --> 00:25:15,260 Letting them drive and handle the keyboard is probably the best thing to do. 583 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:15,680 Right. 584 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:15,940 Right. 585 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:17,100 So, so what do you, what do you think? 586 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,040 What do you think you'll do with more .NET stuff or more Java stuff or like how. 587 00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:22,340 I'm all Java now. 588 00:25:22,380 --> 00:25:23,540 How are y'all going to divide it out? 589 00:25:23,580 --> 00:25:25,720 Are you just going to do one or choose both or like. 590 00:25:25,940 --> 00:25:29,840 I think we're, for the most part, we're Java right now and that's, that's pretty much 591 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,820 for the future to keep people up to speed and keep people in the same, same language and 592 00:25:33,820 --> 00:25:34,700 on the same page. 593 00:25:34,900 --> 00:25:35,120 Yeah. 594 00:25:35,220 --> 00:25:38,080 But I mean, Cloud Foundry, there's no reason, there's no stopping us. 595 00:25:38,340 --> 00:25:38,500 Yeah. 596 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:38,740 Yeah. 597 00:25:39,100 --> 00:25:39,420 No, no, no. 598 00:25:39,420 --> 00:25:43,540 One of the things that from a management perspective that's really nice about pairing is it tends 599 00:25:43,540 --> 00:25:44,840 to homogenize the software. 600 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:45,280 Yeah. 601 00:25:45,340 --> 00:25:45,540 Yeah. 602 00:25:45,740 --> 00:25:48,560 So that means it's approachable by everybody, right? 603 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:53,780 So as you rotate between teams or you rotate your pairs every day, you're not completely 604 00:25:53,780 --> 00:25:57,960 switching contexts, like to a different language or to this crazy software you've never seen 605 00:25:57,960 --> 00:25:58,320 before. 606 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,620 It all kind of looks the same, which sounds boring, but it actually means you can make 607 00:26:02,620 --> 00:26:07,960 better progress because you can get in there and add something to something else that somebody 608 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:08,980 else did before you. 609 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:09,380 Yeah. 610 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,640 And it really helps, helps go faster. 611 00:26:11,820 --> 00:26:11,980 Yeah. 612 00:26:12,060 --> 00:26:13,060 It wouldn't work without pairing. 613 00:26:13,060 --> 00:26:17,140 I've been curious to, I mean, this is one of those things I'll probably never do, but 614 00:26:17,140 --> 00:26:20,720 like it would be, it would be interesting to put it in the passive voice to study like 615 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,300 standardization and homogenization nowadays, right? 616 00:26:24,300 --> 00:26:29,860 Because I feel like when I was in back in the two thousands, when I was being a developer 617 00:26:29,860 --> 00:26:33,460 and doing stuff, it was, there was a lot more value in heterogeneity. 618 00:26:33,460 --> 00:26:38,320 But I think in retrospect, that was just like, we don't want to be all Microsoft, right? 619 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,580 It was basically like all Microsoft or heterogeneous, right? 620 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:47,000 And I think nowadays that kind of whatever that falseness is doesn't exist. 621 00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:51,760 And there's almost like, there's a lot of benefit to all standardizing. 622 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,020 And I don't know if it's quantified very well. 623 00:26:54,060 --> 00:26:58,360 Like it's not part of the lore that like we should actually all be doing things in the 624 00:26:58,360 --> 00:26:58,840 same way. 625 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,960 There is no benefit to doing things all differently. 626 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,020 Somebody, I think it was in compliance, maybe internal audit. 627 00:27:04,100 --> 00:27:06,000 Somebody asked me where our coding standards were. 628 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:10,280 And I said, it's a club foundry, spring boot, Java, and parent. 629 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:13,040 That's my coding standard. 630 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,040 And they weren't, but what about tabs and spaces? 631 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:15,800 Exactly. 632 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:17,360 Exactly. 633 00:27:18,220 --> 00:27:18,520 Yeah. 634 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:19,100 Trust me. 635 00:27:19,220 --> 00:27:20,100 They take care of that. 636 00:27:20,220 --> 00:27:20,460 Yeah. 637 00:27:20,540 --> 00:27:20,780 Yeah. 638 00:27:20,860 --> 00:27:21,140 Yeah. 639 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:23,100 That stuff all gets fiddled away. 640 00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:23,720 Well, great. 641 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:29,200 Well, uh, what was really nice is when the team came back from Denver, their pace was 642 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:29,700 maintained. 643 00:27:29,820 --> 00:27:32,540 So they went out, they got enabled, they came home. 644 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,800 No, that's, I was going to wrap up, but that's, that's a good point. 645 00:27:34,860 --> 00:27:39,540 So that's, that's always a difficult transition is the, uh, the journey going back. 646 00:27:40,020 --> 00:27:43,780 And, and so, so how, how did that, like, how did that go? 647 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,660 Like, like, uh, let's, let's say it's the week before you're going to go back. 648 00:27:46,940 --> 00:27:50,260 I'm sure someone brings some cake or donuts or I guess in Denver it's healthy, right? 649 00:27:50,260 --> 00:27:53,120 You don't have donuts, but they're, they're, yeah, exactly. 650 00:27:53,500 --> 00:27:53,860 Avocado. 651 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:54,560 Lots of avocado. 652 00:27:54,700 --> 00:27:57,520 But, but like, like, what's it like going back for the first few weeks? 653 00:27:57,860 --> 00:28:01,280 Um, so we, when we came back, the lab space, we were told, we weren't sure if it was going 654 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,380 to be completed or not, um, back in Cincinnati. 655 00:28:03,900 --> 00:28:07,280 And so when we got there, I mean, it seemed like everything was fairly set up. 656 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,800 So we spent the first day, set up our machines and kind of getting our development environment 657 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:11,740 all taken care of. 658 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:12,080 Yeah. 659 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,080 Which we were all thinking that's going to take us two or three days and we got it done 660 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:16,560 four or five hours kind of thing. 661 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:17,720 So we were coding day one. 662 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,620 I mean, that was, that was a huge, that was, that was much faster than we thought. 663 00:28:21,260 --> 00:28:25,260 And, um, I guess without the training wheels or the pivots, it was just kind of like, I 664 00:28:25,260 --> 00:28:28,200 think it was a quick test to see, you know, how ready we were. 665 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:29,860 And I don't think we had any issues. 666 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,840 You know, we, the people that, I guess people stepped up where we needed to, or, you know, 667 00:28:33,860 --> 00:28:37,260 whenever, whereas when we were with a pivot, you know, they kind of tended to do a little 668 00:28:37,260 --> 00:28:38,040 bit more of the driving. 669 00:28:38,340 --> 00:28:40,740 Well, it was just, well, now one of us is going to have to do it. 670 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,560 So we just fell into the roles as we needed to. 671 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:48,340 And y'all have been able to like maintain the, uh, disciplined use of the process. 672 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:48,920 Oh yeah. 673 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:49,500 Oh yeah. 674 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:54,700 And if, if, if there's, if you start to kind of wean off that way, then your pair gets 675 00:28:54,700 --> 00:28:55,460 you right back on there. 676 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:56,000 Yeah. 677 00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:02,160 So I, uh, I added one person to the team, um, who was a skeptic of pairing and, um, it 678 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:02,820 turned out great. 679 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:04,340 Now he's our culture advocate. 680 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,140 Oh, so he's our culture champion for the process. 681 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:07,560 Yeah. 682 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,840 He keeps the team going down the right way, but he started, he started out as a skeptic 683 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:13,100 and now he's following. 684 00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:13,800 Yeah. 685 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:18,040 I wonder if his, that makes me wonder if there's like a psychological tool of like, often you 686 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,620 hear the, the skeptics become the best, uh, advocates advocates. 687 00:29:21,620 --> 00:29:22,520 And maybe it's like that. 688 00:29:22,660 --> 00:29:26,780 If you have enough energy to be skeptical about something, you can judo that energy into being 689 00:29:26,780 --> 00:29:31,420 enthusiastic about it, which versus like other people who are just more like not skeptical 690 00:29:31,420 --> 00:29:32,240 or either way. 691 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:32,440 Yeah. 692 00:29:32,500 --> 00:29:34,020 They're maybe not great advocates. 693 00:29:34,180 --> 00:29:34,320 Huh? 694 00:29:34,620 --> 00:29:34,940 Well, great. 695 00:29:34,980 --> 00:29:36,020 Well, thanks for going over that. 696 00:29:36,020 --> 00:29:38,600 And, uh, yeah, I'm looking forward to your talk tomorrow. 697 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:38,960 Great. 698 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:40,440 That'll be fun stuff. 699 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,700 Appreciate catching you in the hallway and doing a quick podcast. 700 00:29:42,780 --> 00:29:42,980 Yeah. 701 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:44,060 Yeah, of course. 702 00:29:44,300 --> 00:29:46,960 Uh, well, as always, this has been a Pivotal Conversations. 703 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:52,880 If you want to get, uh, old episodes in a browsable format, you can go to soundcloud.com 704 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:57,120 slash Pivotal Conversations and, uh, you know, you can subscribe to it and do all that other 705 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:57,580 nonsense. 706 00:29:57,580 --> 00:29:58,940 We'll see everyone next time. 707 00:29:59,120 --> 00:29:59,540 Bye-bye.