1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:06,840 Well, we have a guest on. This is probably the last podcast we'll record this year. 2 00:00:06,900 --> 00:00:10,900 I actually might have one spring-loaded to post some other week. 3 00:00:11,140 --> 00:00:17,480 We'll see what the editorial people around here want to do, but I guess it'll be in your feed because I control the RSS. 4 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:25,080 But anyhow, this is the last live-to-tape recording we'll be doing, and appropriately, we should do predictions. 5 00:00:25,340 --> 00:00:29,620 Everyone needs to get ready for 2018. January's coming up. You're going to come back to work. 6 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,680 On the 4th or the 5th, I don't know, whatever you like. 7 00:00:34,480 --> 00:00:39,940 And you've got to start cracking. You've got to start using up that budget you just finalized and planned out. 8 00:00:40,940 --> 00:00:46,400 So maybe this is a little late then, if you have to plan things. But never mind that. Never mind that. 9 00:00:47,580 --> 00:00:49,600 So why don't you introduce yourself, guest? 10 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:54,600 Hi, I'm Rita Minacci, and I head up Analyst Relations at Pivotal. 11 00:00:55,180 --> 00:01:04,020 And Richard had the good idea that we should have you on because, as you are an analyst relations person, you know what all the analysts are predicting, right? 12 00:01:04,100 --> 00:01:06,160 At least that are relevant to our interests. 13 00:01:06,900 --> 00:01:12,000 And you can help us understand and run through what analysts are doing prediction-wise. 14 00:01:12,060 --> 00:01:16,980 And then, you know, we'll give some of our own predictions at the end here, if we fancy that. 15 00:01:17,100 --> 00:01:22,080 Because we are a regular, I don't know, that guy in a box at the toy store. 16 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:23,740 Zoltar, is that his name? 17 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:26,940 You're making some wishes. That's good. 18 00:01:27,180 --> 00:01:30,960 Yeah. Have you noticed that? Do you all have this over there on the West Coast? 19 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:32,040 Do you have Zoltars everywhere? 20 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:36,200 We have those, like, where, as they say, lousy with them down here in Austin. 21 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:36,880 They're everywhere. 22 00:01:38,020 --> 00:01:39,700 No, I don't see Zoltars around here. 23 00:01:40,180 --> 00:01:41,120 Yeah, I don't either. 24 00:01:41,580 --> 00:01:47,060 Really, I would think in San Francisco, they'd just be on every corner with, you know, get a free IPA with your Zoltar. 25 00:01:47,780 --> 00:01:49,080 But I guess not. 26 00:01:51,260 --> 00:01:55,180 Well, so I thought, you know, we gathered together a bunch of them. 27 00:01:55,320 --> 00:02:00,820 And I think for the point of what we care about here, we've clustered them into three buckets. 28 00:02:00,820 --> 00:02:08,280 We've got development, as in software development, infrastructure, and then everyone's favorite category, miscellaneous. 29 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:09,940 Because not everything fits into there. 30 00:02:10,920 --> 00:02:11,360 Potpourri. 31 00:02:11,580 --> 00:02:14,520 Why don't you give us an overview, first of all, Rita? 32 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,420 What's the deal with, like, analyst prediction PDFs? 33 00:02:17,740 --> 00:02:20,260 Like, you know, you've consumed this stuff a lot. 34 00:02:20,500 --> 00:02:21,480 I've written some. 35 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:23,920 I'm sure Richard has written some prediction stuff. 36 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:30,800 But, like, when you're looking at, like, a, not to be like my other podcast, where we exegesize this thing too much. 37 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:36,520 But, like, when you're consuming an analyst prediction PDF, like, what's going through your mind? 38 00:02:36,700 --> 00:02:38,400 Like, how do you think about it and consider it? 39 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:43,220 Where does this fit into the grand scheme of figuring out to do with one's work life? 40 00:02:43,380 --> 00:02:44,340 There's so many things. 41 00:02:44,420 --> 00:02:45,840 You know, I think it depends on where you're coming from. 42 00:02:45,900 --> 00:02:51,960 If you're in the marketing side, I think you think about how you will be messaging some of the developments we have going on next year. 43 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:56,580 I mean, when I read the Forrester one on cloud computing, I was like, check, check. 44 00:02:56,660 --> 00:02:59,180 Like, we are addressing this, addressing this, addressing this, right? 45 00:02:59,220 --> 00:03:07,080 So I think about how these predictions will impact our business and our product strategy and our marketing strategy. 46 00:03:07,780 --> 00:03:10,660 So that's kind of how I think about it when I read these. 47 00:03:11,060 --> 00:03:14,340 And, of course, there's the, like, I call BS on this one. 48 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:15,000 This is good. 49 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:15,440 Oh, my God. 50 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:19,460 You know, there's the other voice, the snarky voice that is judging these predictions. 51 00:03:19,460 --> 00:03:25,940 But from a business perspective, it's really about how it will shape our strategy for next year. 52 00:03:26,060 --> 00:03:30,720 You know, both product, or actually not both, but product, marketing, business. 53 00:03:31,540 --> 00:03:36,000 And do you think that these are like, I mean, like, how seriously should these things be taken? 54 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:40,560 Because a lot of them are like, you know, this is going to happen by 2020. 55 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:42,600 And I was even, I forget where it was. 56 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:48,920 It was in the big Gartner's curated selection of all their favorite predictions. 57 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:55,500 And it was, basically, there was a line of something like, we feel confident that we can predict the nature of work in 2025. 58 00:03:56,140 --> 00:04:01,220 And I was thinking, like, whoa, that's a bold statement to go on. 59 00:04:02,420 --> 00:04:03,360 Yes, I agree. 60 00:04:03,500 --> 00:04:07,520 So, yes, the Gartner ones tend to look further out. 61 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:09,820 So, I think they do tend to be a little more bold. 62 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:11,920 And I think they're a little more dramatic. 63 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:21,460 And the Forrester ones that I've read seem to be more based on what they're hearing today. 64 00:04:21,460 --> 00:04:23,400 And really looking at the next year. 65 00:04:23,500 --> 00:04:24,920 Like, it's really for 2018. 66 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:25,960 You know? 67 00:04:26,220 --> 00:04:29,260 Whereas I think Gartner looks at, as you said, three years out, five years out. 68 00:04:29,260 --> 00:04:43,580 Like, a lot of the reports that I've read from Gartner are, in 2020, for example, you know, 40% of new applications will use, you know, artificial intelligence for co-development. 69 00:04:44,300 --> 00:04:44,740 You know? 70 00:04:44,840 --> 00:04:49,660 Do you think that this impacts their research agenda, Rita, for a given year? 71 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,100 Or does the research agenda impact their predictions? 72 00:04:52,260 --> 00:04:53,540 Like, what do you see the relationship there? 73 00:04:53,540 --> 00:04:59,760 I'm assuming if a Gartner analyst says this is going to happen, they're probably going to be writing about it a lot over the next year, right? 74 00:05:00,420 --> 00:05:00,780 Correct. 75 00:05:01,700 --> 00:05:02,060 Correct. 76 00:05:02,180 --> 00:05:03,220 I think about that as well. 77 00:05:03,500 --> 00:05:05,220 How does it impact their editorial perspective? 78 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:07,200 And what they're going to be looking for, right? 79 00:05:07,280 --> 00:05:15,260 Like, they're going to be looking for stories and customer examples that support this. 80 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:20,920 And I think, I mean, that's separate from what they get in inquiry as well, right? 81 00:05:21,840 --> 00:05:24,080 And let's just face it, research drives inquiry. 82 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,800 So, they may be, it's kind of a circle, right? 83 00:05:27,900 --> 00:05:32,880 You know, let's make these, and this is, there's no judgment on this, but let's make these predictions. 84 00:05:33,060 --> 00:05:35,740 And now everybody's going to be curious, so they're going to start asking these questions. 85 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:36,580 Right. 86 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,480 Yeah, sometimes you're actually predicting that you're actually causing the future to some extent. 87 00:05:40,580 --> 00:05:48,520 Like, if you just say X will happen, and that's all you keep talking about, at some point, your customers, if you're one of these analyst firm customers, you think you're going to start going that way. 88 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,760 Like, it's an interesting way that you can actually make that prediction come true yourself. 89 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:53,400 I like that. 90 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,620 I feel like every day, all of us are causing the future. 91 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:59,500 That's a positive outlook for the end of the year. 92 00:05:59,620 --> 00:06:00,700 It's how I wake up. 93 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:02,240 We are the butterfly, right? 94 00:06:02,740 --> 00:06:05,100 The flap of the wings that caused that. 95 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:13,440 No, that, that, yeah, I think, and I think a lot of the Gartner research, particularly from the IT leader side, is way more forward looking. 96 00:06:13,900 --> 00:06:23,000 Um, so, because I think if you, you know, read the research and then ask them about what kinds of inquiries they're getting from end users, they're often very, they're often very different. 97 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:27,560 The research tends to be more forward looking, inquiries are what's happening now. 98 00:06:27,700 --> 00:06:32,860 I mean, that's not to say that there isn't value in their, in their research, but, um, it's all related. 99 00:06:33,380 --> 00:06:46,820 Yeah, and, and, and, uh, I mean, just to wrap up the, the meta analysis, I think, uh, one, I, oddly enough, uh, I hadn't thought of the idea of using, uh, analyst predictions to sort of like get inside their head about what they think. 100 00:06:46,820 --> 00:06:49,540 And, uh, they're, uh, they're, they're, they're ideas about things. 101 00:06:49,660 --> 00:06:50,880 So that's, that's fun. 102 00:06:50,980 --> 00:07:00,120 And then two, uh, um, you know, in, in, in reading through these and thinking about it historically, uh, this is, you know, uh, my pet peeve about life. 103 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,860 Like I, I noticed kind of like two broad approaches. 104 00:07:02,860 --> 00:07:07,280 One of them was the, um, the, uh, here's things that will happen. 105 00:07:07,460 --> 00:07:09,540 Let's call it the qualitative predictions. 106 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:16,560 Uh, and, and, and, uh, those are fun, but I think in particular, like the Forrester ones pull in a lot more, like, 107 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:21,260 survey data and things like that to sort of, uh, sort of point, point their direction to things. 108 00:07:21,380 --> 00:07:36,960 Now, of course, uh, I am no stranger to the fact that there's a lot of data out there and you can just selectively pick the ones that match what you want, but it's at least nice to have some, uh, percentage, uh, symbols involved in, uh, you know, I don't know, predictions that people make. 109 00:07:37,260 --> 00:07:45,980 So you can sort of choose your, your approach to things if you want it based on, uh, spreadsheets people have, or, or just, uh, stuff off as they used to say their dome piece. 110 00:07:46,300 --> 00:07:48,220 But all of them are equally fun. 111 00:07:50,100 --> 00:07:59,760 So, so to that end, you alluded, we'll go into the development, Rita, but you brought up, uh, you brought up, I think the first one that I read, uh, was, was the one that had a lot of predictions. 112 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:05,260 It was basically, if I remember, it was like the role of AI and software development. 113 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:14,680 So what, what, and, and, and I have to admit, maybe, maybe I'm just behind the times or like the, the, uh, the pony express wagon hasn't gotten here to Austin yet. 114 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:22,660 But I had never really thought about AI and software development that, that, uh, that's, that seems, that's some good stuff right there. 115 00:08:22,700 --> 00:08:24,980 So, so what are, what are the analysts talking about there? 116 00:08:25,140 --> 00:08:38,380 Actually, both Forrester and Gartner believe that app dev teams are going to be using tools that have AI to help do things like, uh, just kind of, um, repetitive tasks, QA, things like that. 117 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:39,780 Which makes sense. 118 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:41,580 I, I just don't think we're there yet. 119 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:47,600 Um, frankly, maybe because I just value application developers and engineers too much. 120 00:08:47,820 --> 00:08:54,940 And, uh, I feel like their work is so critical that, you know, replacing them with a boss, this is unheard of. 121 00:08:55,180 --> 00:09:07,800 Now, I can, I'm, I just contradicted myself because one of the comments that Gartner says, and even Forrester actually, is that it's going to be used for the low level things, which actually feeds into our story, which is let developers focus on the. 122 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:12,240 The, the, um, value, uh, driving, uh, activities. 123 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,020 So there could be some truth to that one. 124 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:25,460 I don't know how far along the app dev tools and platforms market is and incorporating AI and ML and things like that into the tools to help with that. 125 00:09:25,460 --> 00:09:30,380 But, you know, I, the more I think about it, the more I feel like it could be legit. 126 00:09:30,500 --> 00:09:35,120 But when I first read it, I rolled my eyes because I feel like AI is coming, you know, it's everywhere. 127 00:09:35,260 --> 00:09:35,920 It's coming everywhere. 128 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:37,200 Everyone's so excited about it. 129 00:09:37,260 --> 00:09:44,920 And I just, I'm a little dubious about, uh, how, uh, how much it's going to be incorporated into every, uh, all over the stack. 130 00:09:45,020 --> 00:09:45,180 Right. 131 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:45,980 Right. 132 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:47,560 At least two years from now. 133 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:51,500 I mean, that's, what's interesting is I agree that, I mean, there can be some uses. 134 00:09:51,500 --> 00:10:04,180 There was one piece of this prediction that had mentioned that AI would be used to do some interesting things like actually be like a scrum master, like a helper, like a voice driven sort of AI to actually act as sort of a coach. 135 00:10:04,180 --> 00:10:05,700 Like a virtual AI coach. 136 00:10:05,700 --> 00:10:11,020 Like, I, I just don't see having a chat bot that, you know, bot that asks, Hey, is this a good diagram or not? 137 00:10:11,020 --> 00:10:12,220 Like I, I mean, maybe. 138 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:17,340 But, but at the same time, you know, they had some other ones that look like iPads. 139 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:22,940 Like integration can use AI to make integration easier and try to map like, Hey, I think this is supposed to connect to this. 140 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:24,340 Like that makes total sense to me. 141 00:10:24,340 --> 00:10:24,580 Right. 142 00:10:24,620 --> 00:10:36,920 I can, I can see using data sets to help me make smarter decisions on some of those tasks, like connecting to data sources, maybe even doing some code test coverage or, you know, some things to help make my application development better. 143 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:42,720 But I don't see it replacing architects or business analysts or things like that, at least for the foreseeable future. 144 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:55,020 Yeah, that's, that's some good framing for all this stuff, which is, uh, uh, oftentimes things get used in a more pragmatic unintentional or unintentional way. 145 00:10:55,020 --> 00:11:06,140 And so, I mean, just to make something up, like I was, uh, I was, I was, uh, reading up on the concepts of tech debt recently, cause someone else asked me to write an interviewer thing on that topic. 146 00:11:06,680 --> 00:11:16,320 And, uh, you know, it reminded me of all the like code scanning and, and sort of like, would you call that static analysis of, uh, of code that you can do that gives you insights. 147 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:23,780 And, you know, maybe in like 1948, that would be considered AI or something, but like nowadays it's just like code scanning. 148 00:11:23,780 --> 00:11:32,860 And so it does seem like you could use some sort of machine learning thing to find like good and bad patterns in code, especially execution wise. 149 00:11:33,580 --> 00:11:36,920 And I don't know, would you call that AI beats me, right? 150 00:11:36,980 --> 00:11:42,420 I mean, it's obviously it's machine learning since I just said that, and I am the source of truth on these things. 151 00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:52,920 Uh, but, but it, it, it is plausible that people who do analysis would start to, uh, go back to all those, all those little funny static analysis things they do. 152 00:11:52,920 --> 00:12:02,300 And, and then, you know, maybe even in real time, start to, uh, as, as, as you reminded us, Rita, start to be a clippy of, of just like, you know, are you sure you want to do that? 153 00:12:02,660 --> 00:12:04,960 Why would you implement string tokenization? 154 00:12:05,380 --> 00:12:06,620 That already exists. 155 00:12:06,780 --> 00:12:11,140 I mean, I think the, the key would probably be getting rid of all these hard coded rules, right? 156 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:17,400 I mean, that's what in 1946 or 1997, it was based on like, Hey, here's some quick rules to tell you your code looks good or not. 157 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:18,200 And they're fixed, right? 158 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:23,900 You're not really changing it versus something that's learning and saying, Hey, we've, we've discovered these things over time. 159 00:12:23,900 --> 00:12:25,860 And like, that does get super interesting. 160 00:12:25,980 --> 00:12:27,800 I just, you know, Rita, you, you touched on this. 161 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:31,320 I just don't see this making its way into many of these tools by 2020. 162 00:12:31,680 --> 00:12:32,740 I mean, it's two years from now. 163 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,200 Is that going to be in my visual studio? 164 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,540 Is that going to be in my, my dev suite, my CICD tool? 165 00:12:38,620 --> 00:12:42,120 I mean, maybe, but that seems like that's a massive leap in a short time period. 166 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:48,000 And one thing I did think about too, is it, is this sort of the evolution of automation as well? 167 00:12:48,060 --> 00:12:58,780 Maybe that's more relevant on the infrastructure side, but using AI to automate more, again, low level things, you know, uh, it's something that I thought that popped into my head when I was reading these. 168 00:12:59,160 --> 00:12:59,280 Yeah. 169 00:12:59,520 --> 00:12:59,720 Yeah. 170 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:06,280 Did anyone cover that idea of like use it, whatever it's AI or ML or whatever it, the automation layer. 171 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:07,720 I don't remember reading that either. 172 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:09,640 I don't think I saw that. 173 00:13:09,860 --> 00:13:11,320 I don't think so either. 174 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:12,380 Oh my God, there's my prediction. 175 00:13:12,820 --> 00:13:13,400 There you go. 176 00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:14,220 Walk it in. 177 00:13:16,780 --> 00:13:17,140 Yeah. 178 00:13:17,340 --> 00:13:20,760 No, you know, it's a part of the, it would have come up in the IT operations predicts piece. 179 00:13:21,380 --> 00:13:27,060 Um, but they really led with the skills gap, but I'm getting ahead of myself because we're going to talk about infrastructure later. 180 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:29,820 Jump to the next one on serverless. 181 00:13:29,820 --> 00:13:30,160 Yeah. 182 00:13:30,300 --> 00:13:35,040 And then, and then, so also in the, uh, I forget which it was the, the compute one that Gartner did. 183 00:13:35,140 --> 00:13:38,480 They, uh, let's see, I'll, I'll, I'll, it's basically says by 2020. 184 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:42,120 So, so as, as Richard keeps reminding us in just two years. 185 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:46,700 Uh, 90% of serverless development will occur outside. 186 00:13:46,900 --> 00:13:49,060 Basically will be what we used to call shadow IT. 187 00:13:49,580 --> 00:13:53,260 It'll, it'll, it'll be outside of the, uh, they call it I and O organization. 188 00:13:53,500 --> 00:13:56,320 I forget what that stands for, but the IT organization. 189 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:01,480 Uh, and, and so I guess, I guess like it won't be managed by them or something. 190 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:12,100 I should remember the details of what I was reading here, but, but I mean that for any new technology and you see this over and over again, it does seem like it, uh, takes it several years to be standardized. 191 00:14:12,180 --> 00:14:18,220 And thus in the purview of, of the, uh, the people who, who run something and standardize it. 192 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:18,480 Right. 193 00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:23,180 And then remember, I mean, to this point, there is no option really for serverless on premises. 194 00:14:23,180 --> 00:14:27,640 So if I am using public cloud, I am either swiping the credit card or using my account. 195 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:34,140 So it's not shocking that a lot of that work would happen outside of the ticketing based provisioning system that happens on on-prem systems. 196 00:14:34,140 --> 00:14:35,140 Cause that's not a choice. 197 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:40,000 Now I get pivotal function service, things like that will make that more interesting, but I get this one. 198 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:41,840 This one actually doesn't surprise me too much. 199 00:14:42,740 --> 00:14:45,940 And it seems to be lumped with serverless microservices and event driven. 200 00:14:46,540 --> 00:14:50,880 Uh, those, those three things are mentioned often in the same, you know, if not same sentence, same paragraph. 201 00:14:51,180 --> 00:14:54,080 And to Richard's point, I think we're in a good place. 202 00:14:54,580 --> 00:14:54,940 Yeah. 203 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,480 Now building on this, I think we put this in the infrastructure one. 204 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:02,380 Maybe it's related to this though, but this idea of function paths and things like that, 205 00:15:02,940 --> 00:15:09,700 this assumption that serverless in general is going to double triple again, that doesn't seem shocking given it's starting off just now. 206 00:15:09,700 --> 00:15:13,860 So it should be doubling and tripling every couple of years in terms of usage, in terms of popularity. 207 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,640 I think that, that also doesn't feel too shocking to me. 208 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:18,300 That's good point. 209 00:15:18,500 --> 00:15:19,160 That's a good point. 210 00:15:19,300 --> 00:15:24,760 If it's from, yeah, if it, you know, going from a small number of doubling is not that big. 211 00:15:24,820 --> 00:15:32,060 So yeah, I think it was Gartner that says that by 2020, the number of applications and serverless function paths will more than double from 2017. 212 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:32,880 Right. 213 00:15:32,900 --> 00:15:36,680 If you're saying IaaS is going to double over the next two years, that would be interesting to me. 214 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,840 Like that would seem like crazy given it's a bigger number at this point. 215 00:15:40,220 --> 00:15:40,580 Totally. 216 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:49,300 And I guess, I guess to transition into the infrastructure there, there's a, as part of this, there's a, I think it's even from the same prediction thing. 217 00:15:49,380 --> 00:15:50,180 I just pulled that out. 218 00:15:50,180 --> 00:15:52,600 Cause you know, serverless must be a developer concern. 219 00:15:53,120 --> 00:16:00,460 Uh, but there's also a, uh, commentary about like, uh, how much, or a prediction about how much, uh, uh, what do they call it? 220 00:16:00,460 --> 00:16:03,120 Mission critical containerized cloud native applications. 221 00:16:03,380 --> 00:16:05,240 They still use a hyphen in cloud native. 222 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:09,240 So we should send them a memo, Rita, that the hyphen doesn't exist anymore. 223 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,620 But, uh, anyways, some people still do. 224 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:14,180 I know. 225 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:14,600 I know. 226 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:21,460 I, I remember a couple of years, I remember a couple of years ago, spending a lot of mental brain points on, on a hyphen in there or not. 227 00:16:21,460 --> 00:16:26,980 And so now I feel like I can make fun of it anyways, uh, there, there's kind of a side note. 228 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:35,100 So their prediction is that in two years by 2020, more than 50% of enterprises will run mission critical containerized cloud native applications and production. 229 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:40,760 Now, as I'm always fond of reminding people like penetration is not the same as market share. 230 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:47,260 So what that means at the minimum is that there will be at least one application that an enterprise is running. 231 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,700 Not necessarily that all of them, but whatever, it's still good momentum. 232 00:16:51,460 --> 00:17:14,600 And I think, I think that to me, like the other thing that's interesting about that is I left off the, uh, there's a comma and then it says up from less than 5% today, which to read into that means that five, five, five, less than 5% of enterprises are running mission critical containerized cloud native applications in production, which, you know, it's probably no footnote that defines the size of an enterprise, right? 233 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:22,220 Like IDC used to define an enterprise as more than 999 people, uh, whereas Gartner might be more than 10,000 or whatever. 234 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:23,460 So, so who knows? 235 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:29,260 Uh, but, um, that is, it kind of matches up with, with, uh, the serverless thing. 236 00:17:29,260 --> 00:17:40,580 See, uh, going back to the thread there is that they probably don't tax a mind taxonomy and eyes at this way, but I'm pretty sure like all serverless thing runs in a container, right? 237 00:17:40,580 --> 00:17:47,180 So to some extent, like, uh, 5%, you've already got less than 5% of things running in a container. 238 00:17:47,420 --> 00:17:55,760 And then if serverless is the type of container thing, there's probably even less, it's sort of like the shrinking egg thing, but, uh, that is some crazy growth. 239 00:17:55,900 --> 00:18:04,580 I can't do that kind of math because as we discussed, I have a philosophy degree, but that seems like, uh, that's a big CAGR as it were, uh, over the next two years. 240 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:06,420 It is. 241 00:18:06,540 --> 00:18:13,080 My question would be of that 50%, hopefully, I mean, in my ideal world, 80% don't realize they're doing it right. 242 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:18,760 I mean, every PCF customer today is running containerized production workloads in a cloud native platform. 243 00:18:18,940 --> 00:18:21,140 You might not know because who cares, right? 244 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:28,040 I mean, that's the point of some of this is that, you know, when I'm using things like Kubernetes and we're going to talk about that in a moment, but you know, that's not the end game. 245 00:18:28,340 --> 00:18:32,280 The end game is the things that are making it easier to ship applications to those sorts of platforms. 246 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:34,060 And those are good platforms for platforms. 247 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:35,440 So hopefully, sure. 248 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:40,160 A lot of these apps are containerized and hopefully nobody cares because that's just the way you, you deliver the software. 249 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:42,040 And that's an implementation detail. 250 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:54,440 And this, this reminds me or doesn't remind me, but evokes something, uh, be interesting to hear your take on what the analysts think about this, Rita is, is in the, uh, I don't know what our cutesy name for this anymore is. 251 00:18:54,440 --> 00:19:12,720 But in, in this sort of like Twitter world of like infrastructure-y cloud native thought lords and ladies, there's this ongoing trend now of like, hey, you should pay attention, uh, to the, uh, the stuff above Kubernetes and the past layer and the actual applications that you have. 252 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:22,720 And like, uh, uh, I think in the past, let's say 60 days or so, like that's been something that, uh, everyone comes up with a 280 character or less kind of quiff about and posts. 253 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:27,560 And then it gets retweeted and it's good, good thought, thought, uh, magistrating. 254 00:19:27,780 --> 00:19:35,940 Uh, but are you, are you seeing analysts make that point or are they, uh, are they still obsessed with, uh, just container orchestration and things like that? 255 00:19:37,420 --> 00:19:42,860 Uh, I, it's, it's, it's, it's a case by case basis. 256 00:19:42,860 --> 00:19:57,540 Uh, they, I haven't had anybody say it that bluntly, but I know that, uh, for example, I think that's actually probably more the IO foot, like the, I feel like Forrester has been more aggressive in, in, in that than, uh, others. 257 00:19:58,140 --> 00:20:07,400 Uh, and then actually something that, uh, Red Monk wrote recently kind of, kind of, kind of to me echoed the whole value of line, um, piece. 258 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:15,700 I think it was Fenton Ryan's article, uh, most recent article, which I can't pull up right now, but, uh, but that kind of, that, that addresses that. 259 00:20:16,580 --> 00:20:20,300 Um, I want to go back to this whole, like serverless microservices event driven thing. 260 00:20:20,300 --> 00:20:30,620 And it's something that Richard says, and I haven't seen anybody put this out in writing and, uh, I haven't gotten like strong agreement verbally from the analysts, but that it's not a zero sum game, right? 261 00:20:30,620 --> 00:20:34,860 It's not that, you know, containers eat paths and, uh, serverless eats containers or whatever. 262 00:20:35,460 --> 00:20:41,360 Um, you know, Gartner is kind of rotating towards something called the hybrid application platform strategy. 263 00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:44,840 So like different, different platforms for different levels of application. 264 00:20:44,980 --> 00:20:49,360 So we'll be interested to see how they evolve that thinking and that research. 265 00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:51,260 But I think that might be going in that direction. 266 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:52,480 Yep. 267 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:53,000 Great point. 268 00:20:53,540 --> 00:20:58,060 I mean, hopefully this is all additive stuff and that's, that's, what's interesting, right? 269 00:20:58,060 --> 00:21:02,420 Is that we're, we're trying to build more things in the right places and we have more choices than ever, which is awesome. 270 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:03,160 Yeah. 271 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:11,940 And, you know, actually, back to your point about this, this, this, this kind of reads, it feeds into the infrastructure and operate in IT operations, um, predictions. 272 00:21:11,940 --> 00:21:22,660 And it's what, how IT and operations folks need to, which is by the way, IO is infrastructure operations, uh, how they need to up themselves, right. 273 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,720 For this, for these new ways of, of doing things. 274 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:28,080 But again, we'll address that later. 275 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:38,480 Yeah, that was, that was a extensive thing about, uh, training that, that, that, that did come up a lot that, you know, there, there was also like skipping around a little bit. 276 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:43,760 There was, there was a, as always a good emphasis on like changing the way you think about IT and strategy. 277 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:54,560 In fact, I think, I think I was, I was kind of subtly jabbing at the idea of, uh, needing to go over that earlier this morning in that, like, it's, you know, you always have to reinvent how you use IT. 278 00:21:54,560 --> 00:22:00,940 Just, just, just as a reminder to people out there, you got to evolve, evolve the way that your, your tools pan out. 279 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:02,600 And speaking of, of reinventing. 280 00:22:02,700 --> 00:22:13,620 So there was, uh, in one of the, the Forrester pieces, I think, I think, I think like most people, but in a very, well, concise, definitive way, they were basically like in 2018 Kubernetes wins. 281 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,220 So you don't have to worry about those other things. 282 00:22:17,220 --> 00:22:23,240 And, and, and I think, I think they drew out, I'll try to summarize it like four reasons why, uh, why this is the case. 283 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:30,440 One, because it's got 15 years of product, of, you know, experience, so to speak, since it was based on Google things. 284 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,240 And it's got all the necessary features today. 285 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:37,340 They say number two, and, uh, has the largest and fastest growing community. 286 00:22:37,700 --> 00:22:43,700 And then, uh, and then also that it's a part of, uh, lots of pass offerings, including, uh, cloud foundry. 287 00:22:43,780 --> 00:22:52,720 So it's sort of, uh, overall it, uh, I think, I think what they're saying is that, uh, they believe it works and, uh, it's cemented into existing things. 288 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:54,600 And, uh, so there you go. 289 00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:56,480 It's available everywhere. 290 00:22:58,080 --> 00:22:59,060 Yeah, sure. 291 00:22:59,380 --> 00:22:59,740 Great. 292 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:00,380 What's next? 293 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,100 I think that's the thing, right? 294 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:03,940 That's cool. 295 00:23:04,300 --> 00:23:09,600 Like that, that's great that, you know, that there's a lot of people contributing to something that will power a lot of things. 296 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,480 I hope it to some extent, again, for the end user and again, pivotal container service. 297 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:20,160 I'm excited about that's going to be great for folks who want to use Kubernetes, but in a lot of cases, that's still a good fit for certain types of workloads. 298 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:27,640 And other people will still keep using serverless and they'll keep using IaaS and they'll use bare metal and they'll use cloud foundry, you know, pivotal application service. 299 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:29,220 And that's all great stuff. 300 00:23:29,220 --> 00:23:33,660 So that's awesome that we have a kind of common scheduler that people have rallied around. 301 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,900 Now let's make sure that it's great to use all this tech in a secure fashion. 302 00:23:36,900 --> 00:23:39,680 I can deploy continuously and people like doing IT again. 303 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:46,120 Yeah, see, that's, that's, that's a good summary of the aforementioned shift in the thought, the thought lording wins right there. 304 00:23:46,120 --> 00:23:52,400 And actually the, the Finch and Ryan piece I was talking about, it's called commodity container. 305 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,460 It was the commodity container story that post feeds into what we're talking about here. 306 00:23:56,460 --> 00:23:58,740 And then also about this whole value line, right? 307 00:23:58,740 --> 00:24:01,520 Like where it becomes like, who cares about what's happening underneath? 308 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,220 Who cares about the container stuff and container orchestration stuff? 309 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:06,200 It's the value of it. 310 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:11,560 So he actually, I think Artic articulates that very well in that post. 311 00:24:12,300 --> 00:24:16,480 I'll put a link there, but yeah, yeah, it is, it is a fun post overview. 312 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:25,740 So then, so then back to the infrastructure stuff, what, what, you know, private clouds, always a perennial thing to figure out where people stand on and what's going on. 313 00:24:25,780 --> 00:24:30,220 So how, how would you summarize what, what the analysts are saying, predicting about private cloud, Rita? 314 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,520 Well, this is hilarious because they're so, these are very different. 315 00:24:33,700 --> 00:24:35,100 You know, Forrester is quite bullish. 316 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:41,940 They think there's going to be kind of a renaissance for private cloud and, and hybrid cloud as they, as they, as they call it. 317 00:24:41,980 --> 00:24:46,960 And they actually credit Azure Stack for being one of the drivers of that, of the, particularly the hybrid cloud. 318 00:24:46,960 --> 00:25:00,680 So they think that it's, it's, it's, it's going to be, I think the actual prediction is private cloud gets new life as an app creation and modernization platform. 319 00:25:01,500 --> 00:25:07,140 And so one of the points they make is that it's a great place for developers to kind of get their chops, right? 320 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:13,660 To learn how to move more quickly and to do things, do things like perhaps, perhaps serverless and things like that. 321 00:25:13,980 --> 00:25:24,380 And then enterprises can kind of move into the cloud on their, at their own pace, which also echoes something that James Governor said, which is, you know, premature optimization, right? 322 00:25:24,460 --> 00:25:26,740 So when they're ready, they can move to the public cloud. 323 00:25:26,860 --> 00:25:37,400 So I'm getting private cloud is a good place for people to practice rapidly, rapidly building new applications and modernize implementations and processes and handle the scale of new application development. 324 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:46,460 Yeah, well, as you say, so fascinating, given there's such a difference between even some of the Gardner and Forrester opinion. 325 00:25:46,580 --> 00:25:52,180 And I think it's, I don't know, as we look at the landscape, Coté, you talk to plenty of shops who deal with this stuff too. 326 00:25:52,300 --> 00:25:54,900 I mean, for me, it's private cloud historically has been awful. 327 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:59,200 And that's because it's mainly been a ticketing system on top of virtual machine provisioning. 328 00:25:59,420 --> 00:25:59,840 Like, that's it. 329 00:25:59,900 --> 00:26:01,060 That's what a private cloud has been. 330 00:26:01,500 --> 00:26:09,900 And if I can actually deliver application services, data services, you know, I can get that agility that we all loved about public cloud in the first place. 331 00:26:09,980 --> 00:26:12,860 I mean, I'm going on 10 years of being a public cloud crazy fan. 332 00:26:12,860 --> 00:26:25,340 But if private cloud is actually interesting now, and I can actually get the agility I want, it's on demand and date managed services, the only true benefit of public cloud is going in locations I can't get into myself. 333 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,420 You know, I want a server in Germany in four minutes. 334 00:26:27,580 --> 00:26:28,080 That's awesome. 335 00:26:28,460 --> 00:26:30,200 Or I'm doing crazy scale. 336 00:26:30,700 --> 00:26:32,920 You know, I need 10,000 containers in the next 10 minutes. 337 00:26:33,060 --> 00:26:33,320 Great. 338 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,880 Trying to use some of these really interesting novel services like around AI and machine learning. 339 00:26:38,100 --> 00:26:42,420 But a lot of the other agility stuff is now available on-prem in some of these private solutions. 340 00:26:42,420 --> 00:26:50,560 So if I have sovereignty concerns or other just workloads I don't want to move to public, I don't feel this sort of complete fear of missing out anymore if I do private right. 341 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,460 So I kind of agree with Forrester, which I would have never said a year or two ago. 342 00:26:54,700 --> 00:27:04,400 But I get that kind of renewed interest on actually making cloud just a destination versus, like, I have to move to public or else I'm a complete, you know, dinosaur and I'll go out of business. 343 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,800 You know, and I think there's a nuance, right? 344 00:27:07,860 --> 00:27:12,860 And Gartner's beef with private cloud is that they think that it doesn't offer a true cloud experience. 345 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:17,080 And again, to your point, that may have been true a couple of years ago, but it's come a long way. 346 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:23,980 And you can get a more cloud experience than before. 347 00:27:23,980 --> 00:27:36,560 And I think also Gartner points out that people are really using private cloud quotes, if you will, or cloud quotes for DevOps and things like that, for those kinds of experiences as opposed to a true cloud experience. 348 00:27:37,140 --> 00:27:37,260 Right. 349 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:42,980 What do you think, Coach, are you a private cloud renewed interest guy or you can't wait for it to die a fiery death? 350 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:52,400 Well, I think the way you phrased it is the, I mean, intellectually, I've always been hoping for a fiery death. 351 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,360 But, you know, maybe it's more of a phoenix. 352 00:27:55,200 --> 00:28:04,320 And it's just that, as you said, like most private cloud things have been, to rephrase the better way you put it, they're just not private cloud, right? 353 00:28:04,360 --> 00:28:06,960 They're just like regular virtualized clusters. 354 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:18,160 And I think that's always been the intellectual problem with private cloud is that the point of cloud is that it's not private, right? 355 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,660 Like, I mean, there was a big debate many years ago about, like, why do we even say public or private? 356 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:24,220 Like, this is crazy. 357 00:28:25,700 --> 00:28:33,760 And I think all the OpenStack people and also VMware's involvement in people, you know, like they and Microsoft, like they sort of defined what these things would be. 358 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:36,700 And then, but then, you know, just, I mean, two more things. 359 00:28:36,700 --> 00:28:49,840 Like, one, like, it is notable that most of the reasons for doing private cloud are rarely about the efficiency and productivity of public cloud. 360 00:28:50,060 --> 00:29:01,220 They're like something that public cloud doesn't do or doesn't have as far as regulations and whatever that you need to do for private cloud or because you have all this stuff or whatever. 361 00:29:01,220 --> 00:29:08,260 And so it's very rare that you come across a private cloud pitch that's like, because it's awesome, right? 362 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:09,420 It's true. 363 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,760 Because it, like, has all this functionality that's fantastic and things like that. 364 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:19,640 And I think what, I don't know, does Gartner still use confidence things? 365 00:29:19,820 --> 00:29:25,340 I haven't seen that in a long time, but I don't know what my zero point whatever number of confidence would be. 366 00:29:25,340 --> 00:29:40,480 But I think, I think there is an interesting observation to make that have, has, has the overall vendor world figured out private cloud that is awesome and, you know, hopefully is, is similarly priced. 367 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:48,520 Like, I'm not sure it'll ever be like the same price, but like, does something like an Azure stack actually get you all of the sort of public cloud experience? 368 00:29:49,060 --> 00:29:54,020 Or is it just another case of like, sort of a fallback, if you will? 369 00:29:54,160 --> 00:30:07,900 And I think, I mean, that's all sort of like, to your point, like many of the people that I talk with when I'm traipsing about, like, they all want the awesomeness of public cloud, but they have very valid reasons for not doing it. 370 00:30:07,900 --> 00:30:11,900 And, and, and then many of them, like, you know, Home Depot is a notable public example. 371 00:30:11,900 --> 00:30:16,720 They, they really do strategically want to move to public cloud as much as possible. 372 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:23,020 They're just, you know, I don't know, building their passageway to that. 373 00:30:23,500 --> 00:30:24,760 I got lost there. 374 00:30:24,940 --> 00:30:36,740 But yeah, so, so I think, I think it's, it's not quite the craziness of, of even a couple of years ago to think that like private cloud might be something it's, and it's, it's to go on a little bit. 375 00:30:36,740 --> 00:30:47,300 I mean, I remember, I remember an epic meeting back when I was at Dell that I had with a room full of Forrester people at their, their fantastic new offices with guitars in the lobby. 376 00:30:47,300 --> 00:30:54,140 And I got a, live at Altmont, Allman Brothers CD is a parting gift, which was cute and nice. 377 00:30:54,220 --> 00:30:57,020 I don't think I've ever opened that, but I should probably listen to it. 378 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:09,660 But, you know, I remember there was a very feisty debate amongst the analysts about if private cloud was BS or not, and that everything was going to go to public cloud. 379 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:11,060 And this must have been in 2011. 380 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:19,600 And so it is like, it is, it is interesting to watch over time what sentiment is amongst analysts and others about, about that. 381 00:31:19,660 --> 00:31:22,440 And it seems like people are kind of open to private cloud. 382 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:30,060 Like there's not really a big debate about it anymore, which doesn't mean private cloud's valid, but it means that it's not that controversial of a thing. 383 00:31:30,060 --> 00:31:35,320 It seems a lot more real than back in those, those theoretic days of getting an Allman Brothers CD. 384 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:40,940 There's my epic commentary on private cloud. 385 00:31:42,740 --> 00:31:44,180 Just mic drop moment. 386 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:44,700 That's right. 387 00:31:44,820 --> 00:31:53,860 You know, actually, it's funny you say that because I need to get a new little arm that holds up my microphone because it's broken and it does like slowly lower. 388 00:31:54,180 --> 00:31:57,820 So as I talk more and more, my, my mic literally is dropping. 389 00:31:57,940 --> 00:32:00,420 That's why every now and then you can hear me pulling it back up. 390 00:32:01,380 --> 00:32:03,620 But so, so let's see. 391 00:32:04,380 --> 00:32:07,760 Well, we've, we've alluded to it many times, but in all of this, right? 392 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:22,000 Like whether it's the actually getting a real private cloud or figuring out serverless, like there's this ongoing emphasis in all of these pieces about you need to fix your skills and the way you're thinking about things and organizing. 393 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:30,780 And give us, give us, give us an overview of, of what the DevOps kids would call sort of like the culture commentary that's going on in all of these, Rita. 394 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:37,780 I think it's, it's, it's still, it's still an issue, which surprises me. 395 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:40,460 But that's because, you know, of where I work, I think. 396 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,320 But it's still an issue and it still comes up. 397 00:32:43,660 --> 00:32:50,060 And, you know, the whole thing is like the technology may be there, but if people don't use the tools, they have to change the way they use the tools. 398 00:32:50,500 --> 00:32:59,860 And also, and in the case of operations folks, they have to evolve themselves and evolve their roles to be more versatile and in some cases be more like developers. 399 00:33:01,900 --> 00:33:07,540 Forrester calls out this concept of immersive training, I think is what they called it or something like that. 400 00:33:07,620 --> 00:33:13,940 You know, so pivotal labs, an IBM garage kind of style things as taking off in 2018. 401 00:33:14,780 --> 00:33:20,760 So we like that one a lot, but that was one they called out specifically in the top 10 predictions for 2018. 402 00:33:21,260 --> 00:33:28,420 And then the IT operations 2018 predicts from Gartner, again, talks about a skills gap for the I&O folks. 403 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:40,160 Having more versatile, which to me echoes some things that Forrester has been writing earlier in the year, which is that, again, operations folks need to evolve themselves, perhaps even be more like developers. 404 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:47,700 So it's still an issue. And I think both both firms understand that and see that. 405 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:56,200 Well, I'm glad that's what immersive is, because I was thinking it was going to some sort of augmented reality thing, which is good to hear they didn't go down that path. 406 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:11,640 Well, I lost my thought. Oh, yeah. Even I was going to say, we even get, you know, when we talk to the analysts, they tell us they get they get a lot of questions from user clients, like, how do we deal with this? 407 00:34:12,220 --> 00:34:16,300 So it's still a thing. It's going to be a thing this year. 408 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:27,200 Yeah, that is I mean, I'm I'm I'm a little bit like you in the sense of it is an obvious problem that we've always had in the IT world. 409 00:34:27,700 --> 00:34:34,800 And so so so it's maybe maybe it's maybe it's an instructive like thought hole to go down to be like, why? 410 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,080 Why is it the case that this is always a problem? 411 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:49,700 Like to go on another little jag, I finally finished reading this book called Programmed Inequality about the the the the way the way that that gender was used. 412 00:34:49,740 --> 00:35:02,680 Kind of destructively in the history of British the British IT world, specifically in the government, how the continual sort of like, I don't know, not thinking as of women as full people caused all sorts of problems. 413 00:35:03,100 --> 00:35:09,700 And a lot of it was basically like, as we always have in the IT world, like staffing is hard, like it's hard to find people. 414 00:35:09,700 --> 00:35:14,620 And so it is it is a little weird how we haven't solved that problem yet. 415 00:35:14,740 --> 00:35:23,080 Maybe maybe it's the typical like human thing of like, you know, if if if you give me a 25 cents today, I'll happily pay it back on Tuesday. 416 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:29,780 Like we're just happy to build up debt and not really address the problems we have so that we can pay for the hamburgers on our own. 417 00:35:30,780 --> 00:35:40,560 And I can't remember which one, which which report was that they talked about looking to address the skills gap is looking for people with diverse backgrounds and diverse experiences. 418 00:35:42,060 --> 00:35:51,860 So and I think it's something we also do and say at Pivotal, you know, you know, especially in the case of app dev or engineering, like, can they demonstrate critical thinking? 419 00:35:51,860 --> 00:35:59,140 You know, they may not have a degree in computer science or software engineering or whatever. 420 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,160 But if they can demonstrate critical thinking, you can teach them some of these skills. 421 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,640 Yeah. Oh, hey, we have philosophy majors and poli sci majors on this podcast. 422 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:08,280 So why not? 423 00:36:09,580 --> 00:36:10,260 That's right. 424 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:17,900 So that's right. 425 00:36:18,220 --> 00:36:21,440 So and then and then I think I think finally in that area. 426 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:22,820 Well, sorry, you're going to go on. 427 00:36:23,020 --> 00:36:32,220 What I was going to say, maybe you're maybe you're going to say this, but one of my favorites from the Forrester one is the integrated security and the cloud forms, which they bring up. 428 00:36:32,260 --> 00:36:34,080 And that's that's the only place that I saw that. 429 00:36:34,300 --> 00:36:35,960 And what do they mean by that? 430 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,620 I didn't read that one very closely or perhaps at all. 431 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:41,860 Let me go here. 432 00:36:41,860 --> 00:36:46,800 I mean, I mean, cloud security becomes integrated with an integral to cloud platforms. 433 00:36:47,700 --> 00:36:53,240 So rather than bolting on security features, have it built into the platform. 434 00:36:53,380 --> 00:36:53,500 Right. 435 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:59,680 So which I think, you know, making the right making the right thing easy sort of sentiment. 436 00:37:01,420 --> 00:37:05,600 And, you know, and they go into more details of like zero trust and all that stuff like that. 437 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:06,960 That's kind of over my head a little bit. 438 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:09,100 But I like that. 439 00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:10,040 I like that. 440 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:18,700 I like where they're going with it in that it has to be part of the program or part of the platform as opposed to something you bolt on because that hasn't worked. 441 00:37:19,420 --> 00:37:28,400 Yeah, you know, when I when I was kind of glancing at that, it was reminding me of of another like idle thought I've been messing chewing on recently. 442 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:35,140 And like I think back at Springwind Platform, I was in our CIO summit track for a little while. 443 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:41,200 And, you know, Justin Smith, our security person, came in and was just giving his talk. 444 00:37:41,260 --> 00:37:45,580 And I've been involved in a couple of conversations here and there about like security and patching. 445 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:55,580 And it's sort of what you're alluding to is it's it's one of these problems, to put it in my snarky way of like, well, the way you fix this problem is to stop doing dumb stuff. 446 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:56,320 Right. 447 00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:14,740 Like there's there's no like there's not a magic DVD I can ship you that you're going to install and it's going to fix all your security things like you need to when you're doing your your sort of new things or you're refactoring to use that term sort of precisely your old things. 448 00:38:15,060 --> 00:38:17,040 You should probably make them secure. 449 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,080 And here here's here's a bunch of stuff to do it. 450 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:20,260 Right. 451 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:24,100 And, you know, if integrated security is is a good way of putting it, then that's fantastic. 452 00:38:24,100 --> 00:38:28,900 But it seems like everyone everyone's always looking for like a quick fix with security. 453 00:38:28,900 --> 00:38:32,100 But it's just like that doesn't really happen very well. 454 00:38:32,140 --> 00:38:44,440 They just need to introduce healthier processes that everyone follows so that it's it's, you know, just a regular old feature of it, which I think I think maybe even more. 455 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:48,420 More so than the the the drive to do digital transformation. 456 00:38:49,060 --> 00:38:55,000 The fact that like CEOs get fired over security probably motivates a lot of people to think about it more. 457 00:38:55,860 --> 00:38:56,400 Oh, boy. 458 00:38:56,860 --> 00:38:57,220 Yeah. 459 00:38:57,220 --> 00:38:59,060 And, you know, I think so. 460 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:12,100 So basically what what Forrester is predicting is that more past platform providers and IaaS are going to offer integrated and stream streamlined alternatives to, you know, point solutions for security. 461 00:39:12,100 --> 00:39:25,560 And then they go on to recommend that their clients ask vendors, you know, how they're going to guarantee that there's their security solution will work across IaaS, PaaS and SaaS platforms. 462 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:34,140 So to me, that's, again, a good one for us, for Pivotal, given our our security strategy and our secure by default. 463 00:39:35,180 --> 00:39:35,700 Awesome. 464 00:39:35,700 --> 00:39:35,920 Right. 465 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:36,780 Mm hmm. 466 00:39:38,340 --> 00:39:43,200 I mean, I don't think we're saying I don't think we're saying don't worry about it as long as you have us. 467 00:39:43,260 --> 00:39:43,500 Right. 468 00:39:43,500 --> 00:39:52,880 And Richard, you can maybe type up on this one, but it's a nice kind of, you know, base foundation for some security things. 469 00:39:53,800 --> 00:40:00,080 Yeah, I just I just I think that base is getting more and more important because it's not like people don't know best practices. 470 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,400 I think I saw Fintan actually do a survey on Twitter. 471 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:08,780 Ryan from from Redmonk yesterday on kind of how honestly how important is security in your enterprise? 472 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:10,560 And it was still like less than half. 473 00:40:10,620 --> 00:40:12,240 We're saying, yep, it's an actual top priority. 474 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,060 So you can know all the best practices in the world. 475 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:15,940 It's just not happening. 476 00:40:15,940 --> 00:40:24,200 So I either need to have platforms to do it for me or assume I'm just going to be insecure because I just don't see a third avenue at the moment because we people know what to do. 477 00:40:24,260 --> 00:40:25,200 They're just not doing it. 478 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:29,680 So, you know, at that point, then I need systems to be smarter and protect me for myself. 479 00:40:31,540 --> 00:40:34,140 So how about we there's there's a lot more. 480 00:40:34,420 --> 00:40:36,280 Well, maybe like four or five. 481 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:37,820 That's that's a lot compared to zero. 482 00:40:37,980 --> 00:40:44,020 But there's there's there's there's a lot more that we could go over here that I'll will put references to in the show notes. 483 00:40:44,020 --> 00:40:48,860 And also, I wasn't always good at ferreting out the URLs, but most of these are good. 484 00:40:48,860 --> 00:40:55,680 I mean, one one thing on the metal layer about prediction stuff is they are also a great marketing thing for analysts. 485 00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:58,220 So they tend to be more public about them. 486 00:40:58,220 --> 00:41:02,060 And like there's a lot of blog post summaries of these if you search around for them. 487 00:41:02,060 --> 00:41:03,840 But so we'll put some summaries there. 488 00:41:03,900 --> 00:41:13,740 But Rita, pick out one more for us to go over before we get to attempting to put ourselves on our own petards and try to make predictions on our own. 489 00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:15,000 All right. 490 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,980 Actually, we didn't get to this one. 491 00:41:18,060 --> 00:41:20,520 And I had it written down because it's something I'd heard about for a while. 492 00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:32,440 It's that SaaS providers are going to extend like are going to include PaaS capabilities in their offerings or something along those lines. 493 00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:36,300 It's the whole, you know, PaaS everywhere kind of thing. 494 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:36,920 Oh, yeah. 495 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:37,780 I remember that one. 496 00:41:38,720 --> 00:41:38,880 Yeah. 497 00:41:39,020 --> 00:41:41,400 And I think both firms mentioned that. 498 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:41,740 Right. 499 00:41:42,700 --> 00:41:45,300 So anyway, I think that's an interesting one. 500 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:45,960 Yeah. 501 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:47,880 We've seen that Workday Salesforce. 502 00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:53,060 I mean, there's another number of these companies that try to offer a platform to run their stuff next to it that's more custom. 503 00:41:53,420 --> 00:41:55,560 So I can imagine that train continuing. 504 00:41:55,940 --> 00:41:56,120 Yeah. 505 00:41:56,620 --> 00:41:57,360 No, go ahead. 506 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:03,280 As I said, the other one is, and it's related, is the whole low and no code platform. 507 00:42:03,540 --> 00:42:05,680 Again, both firms are bullish on those platforms. 508 00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:07,040 Yeah. 509 00:42:07,620 --> 00:42:09,380 Just give a brief summary of the whole. 510 00:42:09,380 --> 00:42:15,560 I haven't looked into this, but what is the high code, low code, citizen developer thing going on in the analyst world? 511 00:42:15,980 --> 00:42:17,360 Mixed terms, right? 512 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:24,760 Like, so I think there's the high productivity platforms, which are slash low code. 513 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:32,240 So OutSystems, Mendix, Heroku, that kind of thing that kind of, you don't have to be a developer to use and build little applications, quick applications. 514 00:42:32,660 --> 00:42:36,820 There is one former Gartner analyst who used to call them crappy little apps, craps. 515 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:39,440 That sounds horrible. 516 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,120 I know that sounds super judgy and horrible. 517 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:43,700 I don't get in trouble for that one. 518 00:42:44,340 --> 00:42:53,760 But because I think people are writing more business critical applications using these platforms, not to devalue our partners there. 519 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:59,580 And then the high control would be something like a cloud foundry. 520 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,000 Like a pivotal application service, right? 521 00:43:05,060 --> 00:43:09,920 Where, you know, where it's like actually requires you to write code and all that stuff. 522 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,080 Am I wrong to think that this concept of a citizen developer has reemerged? 523 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,360 I remember reading that from Gartner like three or four years ago. 524 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,300 And I could have sworn I've seen it like many times. 525 00:43:19,420 --> 00:43:21,200 I guess I could go do Google Trends thing. 526 00:43:21,340 --> 00:43:23,400 But like, have you seen that phrase used a lot recently? 527 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:26,880 No, I haven't. 528 00:43:26,940 --> 00:43:29,100 It used to be used way, way more a few years ago. 529 00:43:29,180 --> 00:43:30,220 I totally am with you on that. 530 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:30,940 Like, it was everywhere. 531 00:43:31,100 --> 00:43:32,220 And I was like, oh, no. 532 00:43:32,780 --> 00:43:36,040 But they're not, I don't think they're using it. 533 00:43:36,060 --> 00:43:37,860 I don't think either of them is using it as much. 534 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,060 And I'm wondering if that has a question. 535 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:42,800 I think it comes up once in a while. 536 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:44,580 It'll, you know, it'll kind of slip out. 537 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,000 But they're not using it as much as a thing. 538 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:49,160 Yeah. 539 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,640 It sounds like maybe in, how do you say his name? 540 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:54,020 In a Robert Heinlein universe. 541 00:43:54,020 --> 00:43:55,320 That's what you call programmers. 542 00:43:55,620 --> 00:43:56,520 Citizen developer. 543 00:43:59,780 --> 00:44:05,240 If your code compiles for six months in the build pipeline, you could become a citizen. 544 00:44:07,380 --> 00:44:12,380 And I think the point where the high productivity versus high control is like, you know, again, 545 00:44:12,420 --> 00:44:13,860 it's also not a zero-sum game, right? 546 00:44:13,900 --> 00:44:16,340 I think both firms believe that you have to have both. 547 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,640 You know, and if you buy in, I don't know, Forrester definitely does that. 548 00:44:21,700 --> 00:44:22,580 You've got to be a software. 549 00:44:22,580 --> 00:44:24,260 So, you know, software, you're going to be a software. 550 00:44:24,260 --> 00:44:29,560 Every business is a software business, which means it's going to be a lot of software that needs to be written. 551 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:33,560 And we just don't have the people for it, right? 552 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:42,420 So that's why, again, low-code platforms will be more important because they kind of can help you scale a little bit, you know, the people part. 553 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:45,840 So, yeah, it's not a zero-sum game. 554 00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,260 So let's close out with our own predictions. 555 00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:53,320 Since I'm the host, I will buy myself time by going last. 556 00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:57,740 So how about we'll start with you, Rita? 557 00:44:57,800 --> 00:44:58,860 Now, you already came up with one. 558 00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:00,700 You can just reprise that and detail it. 559 00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:02,920 Or you can come up with another one. 560 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:04,600 But what do you want to predict for next year? 561 00:45:04,940 --> 00:45:16,260 I'm going to predict that AI is going to take a longer time for AI to become part of the app depth tool chain than both are predicting. 562 00:45:17,300 --> 00:45:17,740 Okay. 563 00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:20,440 Lame, I know, but it's good. 564 00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:20,600 Good. 565 00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:21,460 All right. 566 00:45:21,540 --> 00:45:21,980 That's yours. 567 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:22,700 Anything else? 568 00:45:23,300 --> 00:45:24,260 No, I think that's it for now. 569 00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:25,420 All right. 570 00:45:25,460 --> 00:45:27,440 I'll do two because I can. 571 00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:32,180 I'll say that Amazon and Google make some sort of iPads play. 572 00:45:32,340 --> 00:45:34,760 Gardner says they're tracking over 100 providers. 573 00:45:34,940 --> 00:45:42,040 I'm actually intrigued as to why neither Amazon or Google are willing to challenge Microsoft's growing dominance with their products there. 574 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:48,900 So when it comes to integration paths, like integrating things, I would think Amazon, I would think that Google want to have a bigger play there. 575 00:45:48,940 --> 00:45:50,400 I'm surprised they've been on the sidelines there. 576 00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:58,220 So I could see them picking up one of these smaller, you know, tail providers to just kind of give themselves a good story because that's stickiness that makes things come to your platform. 577 00:45:58,340 --> 00:46:01,500 So I would expect one or both of them to buy somebody this year. 578 00:46:02,060 --> 00:46:07,740 And then the other one I'll call out is, again, something you may have a better sense of, but I think we're going to see. 579 00:46:07,740 --> 00:46:14,200 I'll make a random number, at least five enterprises sell, like traditional non-software enterprises sell products this year. 580 00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:15,660 We saw this with Liberty Mutual. 581 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:18,080 We saw this with others who they've gotten good at software. 582 00:46:18,260 --> 00:46:23,460 So why shouldn't they be selling data sets and products to actually make extra money as side businesses? 583 00:46:23,620 --> 00:46:28,400 So I expect we'll actually see more enterprises realize they can make money off IT. 584 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:29,300 It's not a cost center. 585 00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:31,040 That's a fun one. 586 00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:37,360 That's like the fundamentals of the API economy theory were always interesting, right? 587 00:46:37,420 --> 00:46:49,500 Which I'm rephrasing in a slightly different way what you're saying, right, is that a business has some good process or data that they could sell to other people, even competitors, and make a new product out of it. 588 00:46:49,620 --> 00:46:51,240 And I'm not sure. 589 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:52,320 I don't know. 590 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:58,380 I don't really have time to think about why that didn't pan out with such a cool name as API economy. 591 00:46:58,380 --> 00:47:03,800 But I can see that that could be more realistic, especially since we have some cases now. 592 00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:16,580 And it is, you know, it reminds me of all these B2B firms that you encounter, you know, when you sell enterprise software, like someone like a CoreLogic, like another pivotal customer who like, that's essentially their business. 593 00:47:16,580 --> 00:47:26,880 So it's not technically an instance of what you're saying, but you can see how you could amass all of this information and sell it, if only for like consumer ad targeting and stuff like that, right? 594 00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:41,180 Like, but yeah, that would be a nice new revenue source for people is to like more systematically, instead of just doing a big data dump of something, like systematically sell access to process and data that various businesses had. 595 00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:53,960 Well, I'm going to steal my prediction from my other podcast over at Software Defined Talk. 596 00:47:54,380 --> 00:48:04,280 We had a whole episode on predictions if you want to, you know, go to that area, the explicit marked podcast. 597 00:48:04,720 --> 00:48:07,280 Anyhow, so I've been thinking about this a lot recently. 598 00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:14,940 And I think even a couple episodes ago, I talked about this with Matt Curry, if I remember the publishing order of things. 599 00:48:15,580 --> 00:48:21,700 And that is, I think there'll be a very thorough discussion of how DevOps is a little less than real. 600 00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:25,560 And there's a lot of the benefits and practices that are in there. 601 00:48:25,620 --> 00:48:36,460 But the idea, as the name would imply, of having these two things together, working hand in hand, metaphorically speaking, like will be sort of lessened as a reality. 602 00:48:36,460 --> 00:48:39,280 And people will realize that all the same stuff is going on. 603 00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:48,000 But really what they're talking about are what we would call an SRE, which is to say a sysadmin who takes a programming first mentality to doing things. 604 00:48:48,140 --> 00:48:53,320 And, of course, there will be a chorus of people who say that's what we've been arguing all along. 605 00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:58,720 I call those people all those commenters in the register that Richard reads for me, thankfully. 606 00:48:59,420 --> 00:49:02,680 But, you know, they'll sort of defend that that's the way it always has been. 607 00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:11,200 But really, I think there's still a broad perception that DevOps is more about having those two people together, again, because it's right there in the name. 608 00:49:11,860 --> 00:49:22,120 But, you know, I very rarely encounter people who actually are doing sort of like that classic idea of a DevOps thing and more of the here's a platform ops person. 609 00:49:22,500 --> 00:49:27,000 And the developers are just cognizant of the fact that their software will be running on the Internet. 610 00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:28,980 So they do some operation things. 611 00:49:29,420 --> 00:49:32,080 So we'll see how that pans out. 612 00:49:32,240 --> 00:49:36,480 Hey, you know, I feel like you guys had someone's better prediction. 613 00:49:36,820 --> 00:49:51,260 I've got to make a lot of talk about cloud native data, if you will, and data DevOps, the DevOps model kind of starting to be more important in the data world as well. 614 00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:51,880 Right. 615 00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:57,760 Especially with things like serverless, event driven, microservices. 616 00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:00,700 It's a gnarly problem. 617 00:50:01,140 --> 00:50:03,160 And I think a lot of people are like, we just don't want to know. 618 00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:04,000 We don't want to know. 619 00:50:04,100 --> 00:50:04,760 We don't want to get there yet. 620 00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,060 Because they know they're going to have to deal with it eventually. 621 00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:09,300 And they just don't want to do it yet. 622 00:50:09,340 --> 00:50:18,260 And I think the analysts are going to start talking about it more, which will hopefully drive more interest and visibility on it. 623 00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:22,840 And hopefully we'll be able to help our clients address it. 624 00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:28,520 I think just as with serverless, people always joke like there are servers. 625 00:50:28,720 --> 00:50:33,820 And I think with stateless applications, the ongoing joke is there is state. 626 00:50:33,940 --> 00:50:34,840 It's just really hard. 627 00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:36,180 So we don't like to talk about it. 628 00:50:36,380 --> 00:50:38,380 So that definitely seems like something. 629 00:50:38,500 --> 00:50:47,460 Well, also, I'll just leave you with one, you know, since you won't have our voices to listen to for several weeks or things. 630 00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:52,700 While you're there enjoying your eggnog, I want to recommend a book to read for people who are interested in this stuff. 631 00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:53,700 It's a very old book. 632 00:50:54,240 --> 00:50:57,400 It's called Moral Mazes, The World of Corporate Managers. 633 00:50:57,780 --> 00:50:59,880 And, you know, it's a bit cynical. 634 00:51:00,060 --> 00:51:04,580 So you might want to have a couple drinks of your bourbon-laced eggnog before you dive into it. 635 00:51:04,580 --> 00:51:12,320 But if you manage to read through that book, I think it will give you a very good idea of how to actually start getting things done in your large enterprises. 636 00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:19,820 Whether it involves knives or candy, you know, the stick or the carrot. 637 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:20,480 Is that right? 638 00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:21,820 I'm just thinking of a donkey. 639 00:51:22,820 --> 00:51:30,020 And also, there's a good companion presentation from a great American insurance company, GIAC, over at Springwind Platform. 640 00:51:30,420 --> 00:51:32,680 We posted all the videos, it seems like, by the way. 641 00:51:32,780 --> 00:51:33,900 So I'll put a link to those. 642 00:51:34,020 --> 00:51:38,820 But he had a great presentation along these lines called How to Navigate the Sea of No's. 643 00:51:38,900 --> 00:51:41,000 He's much more positive than this book is. 644 00:51:41,220 --> 00:51:48,660 But those are both good sources for figuring out how to actually change culture and fix those problems that we have all the time. 645 00:51:49,340 --> 00:51:50,560 So thanks for being on, Rita. 646 00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:51,360 That was fun. 647 00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:53,420 Yeah, thank you for having me. 648 00:51:53,480 --> 00:52:00,020 And by the way, that was one of my favorite sessions at Springwind was the John Osborne piece. 649 00:52:00,260 --> 00:52:01,340 Yeah, it was pretty good. 650 00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,360 Well, as always, this has been Pivotal Conversations. 651 00:52:04,900 --> 00:52:08,520 If you're bored during the holidays and you haven't listened to every single episode, 652 00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:13,620 you can always go to SoundCloud.com slash Pivotal Conversations and peruse our back catalog. 653 00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:16,840 There's a lot in there you can just listen to. 654 00:52:17,460 --> 00:52:20,540 It's like a time machine through infrastructure software. 655 00:52:21,020 --> 00:52:23,120 News of the past two or three years. 656 00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:24,220 I forget how long it's been. 657 00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:30,040 And as always, we post the full formal show notes usually every Thursday at Pivotal.io 658 00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:31,020 slash podcast. 659 00:52:31,260 --> 00:52:34,980 And if you want to reach out to us, we're all somewhere there in Twitter or the internet 660 00:52:34,980 --> 00:52:35,480 or something. 661 00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:41,220 But you can also just email podcast at Pivotal.io, which would be great because I've been getting 662 00:52:41,220 --> 00:52:45,700 a lot of email about putting ads in our podcast about a bunch of inane stuff. 663 00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:49,480 So it would be nice to actually hear from a human or a chat bot. 664 00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:50,940 Either way, sounds good. 665 00:52:51,500 --> 00:52:52,680 We'll see everyone next time. 666 00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:53,380 Bye-bye.