1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:05,340 Well, we actually have recorded an episode already this week, so we don't have any news, 2 00:00:05,700 --> 00:00:09,400 but we've got just another guest on to talk about. 3 00:00:10,060 --> 00:00:16,960 I forget when it came out, but the second edition of his Spring Boot book, Learning Spring Boot, 4 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:17,820 I think it's called. 5 00:00:18,260 --> 00:00:19,800 But why don't you introduce yourself, guest? 6 00:00:20,900 --> 00:00:22,780 Ah, hello, everybody. 7 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,700 My name's Greg Turnquist, and I'll throw it out there. 8 00:00:25,700 --> 00:00:30,720 It's Greg L. Turnquist, because there's actually another Greg Turnquist, amazingly, that writes software, 9 00:00:30,940 --> 00:00:32,260 and so I have to put that on all my books. 10 00:00:33,140 --> 00:00:34,180 What's the L for? 11 00:00:35,100 --> 00:00:36,220 L is for Lee. 12 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:38,040 Lee. Very nice. 13 00:00:38,500 --> 00:00:41,080 Is Lee short for anything, or is that just its own thing? 14 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:42,660 Not to my awareness. 15 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:45,020 I'll have to look up the origin of that name. 16 00:00:45,060 --> 00:00:49,420 I never thought about it until now, but that's kind of a weird name, Lee. 17 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:53,380 I mean, we all take it for granted, but I wonder where it comes from. 18 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:58,920 I mean, you know, not that it reflects weirdness on you, just words, right? 19 00:00:59,000 --> 00:00:59,640 They're crazy. 20 00:00:59,860 --> 00:01:00,400 Am I right? 21 00:01:01,900 --> 00:01:03,080 What's your middle name, Coté? 22 00:01:03,340 --> 00:01:03,820 Richard. 23 00:01:05,020 --> 00:01:06,020 No, it's not. 24 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:06,680 It is. 25 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:07,300 Yeah. 26 00:01:07,460 --> 00:01:08,420 Get out of here. 27 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:09,600 I never thought about that either. 28 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:12,240 Obviously, I don't think about middle names very much. 29 00:01:12,380 --> 00:01:13,160 No, it is Richard. 30 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:15,480 Michael Richard Coté Jr. 31 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,240 The name that was so good, it was used again. 32 00:01:19,580 --> 00:01:22,820 Wow, our merger continues to succeed here. 33 00:01:22,820 --> 00:01:23,500 This is amazing. 34 00:01:23,740 --> 00:01:23,980 Yeah. 35 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:30,000 I have a little belt buckle I got from my dad that says MRC on it, but sadly, it's from 36 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,820 the era where belts were like, you know, two centimeters wide, so it doesn't really fit 37 00:01:34,820 --> 00:01:36,400 on anything that I have. 38 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,520 It's also gold, which I've been told is not my color. 39 00:01:41,060 --> 00:01:41,940 I should not wear gold. 40 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:43,240 Are you a silver man? 41 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:43,960 I guess so. 42 00:01:44,180 --> 00:01:44,460 Yes. 43 00:01:44,660 --> 00:01:45,060 Silver. 44 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:46,240 Got it. 45 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:48,620 Maybe when I retire, I'll ease into that. 46 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,740 You know that look that people have where suddenly they're just like, I'm going to wear a lot 47 00:01:51,740 --> 00:01:52,400 of turquoise? 48 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:54,840 I wonder if that would pan out. 49 00:01:55,620 --> 00:01:56,440 I could see that. 50 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:57,440 I could see that. 51 00:01:57,620 --> 00:01:57,820 Yeah. 52 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:04,060 I mean, yesterday's podcast, it's the member's only jacket and the pressed pants and the gold 53 00:02:04,060 --> 00:02:04,300 buckle. 54 00:02:04,540 --> 00:02:04,820 Yeah. 55 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:05,640 Yeah. 56 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,080 Gold buckle, some turquoise, maybe get a bolo. 57 00:02:08,740 --> 00:02:11,040 Next thing you know, I'm like that Langmuir guy. 58 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:12,260 How do you say it anyways? 59 00:02:12,860 --> 00:02:16,520 It's solving crimes in Montana or Tucson or something. 60 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:20,780 Well, so back to the topic at hand. 61 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,300 So the second edition, when did this book come out? 62 00:02:24,580 --> 00:02:26,640 Probably about 12 days ago. 63 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:27,560 12 days ago. 64 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:29,920 And you have a video companion with it? 65 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:31,100 Like, is that right? 66 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:31,920 Well, I have a video. 67 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:33,280 Companion's kind of loose. 68 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:38,980 I contracted to do this book and the video at about the same time, but the video came out 69 00:02:38,980 --> 00:02:42,620 about a year ago and it's against, the video is against boot 1.5. 70 00:02:42,920 --> 00:02:48,980 The book is against spring boot 2.0 with the extra wrinkle that the whole thing is written 71 00:02:48,980 --> 00:02:50,960 with the project reactor paradigm. 72 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:54,020 And there's just nothing else on the market like that today. 73 00:02:55,300 --> 00:02:55,740 Cool. 74 00:02:55,980 --> 00:02:56,120 Yeah. 75 00:02:56,140 --> 00:03:00,220 I mean, that's gotta be wild to be writing a book about technology that's not yet shipped, 76 00:03:00,620 --> 00:03:00,780 right? 77 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:02,760 Because boot 2.0 is not released yet. 78 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:06,860 So how do you, how do you go about doing that besides the fact that you have lots of insider 79 00:03:06,860 --> 00:03:07,400 access? 80 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:12,140 Well, now you're looking at the reason it took me to write over a, over a year spent writing 81 00:03:12,140 --> 00:03:16,140 a book that for my publisher, they typically turn around stuff in six months. 82 00:03:16,700 --> 00:03:22,120 So, um, it's actually released against spring boot 2.0 M5. 83 00:03:25,900 --> 00:03:26,660 Cloud in it. 84 00:03:26,700 --> 00:03:30,880 It has spring clouds, eventually M3 milestone release on it. 85 00:03:31,020 --> 00:03:35,180 And all that stuff, all the different, uh, tools that stuff you probably talked about in 86 00:03:35,180 --> 00:03:37,260 past episodes, it all works together pretty nicely. 87 00:03:37,260 --> 00:03:42,780 Like spring security, spring framework, spring data, spring session, reactor. 88 00:03:44,100 --> 00:03:44,680 That's cool. 89 00:03:44,820 --> 00:03:46,780 Who is, who'd you write this for? 90 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:48,360 I mean, who is the target audience? 91 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:55,240 Uh, um, um, well, oh, uh, I wrote it for, um, basically, you know, are you, you know, if 92 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:58,740 you're already familiar with Java to some degree, uh, you know, this book is for you. 93 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,060 If you've used spring in the past, I think you'll find it really handy as well. 94 00:04:02,620 --> 00:04:06,540 Well, there's, I've gone to conferences and ran into people that were absolutely familiar 95 00:04:06,540 --> 00:04:09,900 with spring framework, but still had not dipped their toes into spring boot yet. 96 00:04:09,900 --> 00:04:11,920 And they're kind of like, you can do all that with boot. 97 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:12,320 Wow. 98 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:15,340 So it's like, here you go, grab this book. 99 00:04:15,420 --> 00:04:17,300 It's very practically oriented. 100 00:04:17,300 --> 00:04:21,860 So we don't, you know, dive into real deep esoteric stuff, but instead let's put together 101 00:04:21,860 --> 00:04:24,820 a practical application and run with it. 102 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:25,920 Yeah. 103 00:04:26,020 --> 00:04:27,100 I mean, give me your boot pitch. 104 00:04:27,420 --> 00:04:31,220 So for that person that you bump into at a conference who says, yeah, yeah, I like spring 105 00:04:31,220 --> 00:04:31,620 framework. 106 00:04:31,620 --> 00:04:32,960 I love dependency injection. 107 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:37,040 You know, I don't need your, your highfalutin opinionated framework stuff. 108 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:38,800 I mean, give me the boot pitch. 109 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,200 What does that add to a developer who's maybe even new to spring, but let alone someone who 110 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:44,140 maybe uses spring framework, but hasn't tried it yet? 111 00:04:45,220 --> 00:04:47,440 Well, I think Phil Webb has said it best. 112 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:51,960 You can think of spring framework is like a handful of ingredients and spring boot is like 113 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:53,180 a pre-baked cake. 114 00:04:53,420 --> 00:04:57,940 So here's a cake and in, in 30 seconds, you can have a cake and right in front of you. 115 00:04:58,000 --> 00:04:59,180 And then what do you want to do? 116 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:00,260 You want to tweak the frosting. 117 00:05:00,380 --> 00:05:02,040 You want to alter how many layers it has. 118 00:05:02,100 --> 00:05:06,060 Do you want to swap in an alternative recipe for the cake itself? 119 00:05:06,060 --> 00:05:10,740 You know, start putting in your own stuff and the, the defaults back away automatically. 120 00:05:10,740 --> 00:05:14,580 And it just, you know, boom, you're, you're working with operational stuff, right, right 121 00:05:14,580 --> 00:05:17,020 off the, right off the assembly line. 122 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:18,640 So give me an example. 123 00:05:18,860 --> 00:05:19,520 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 124 00:05:19,540 --> 00:05:20,720 I was going to say for like a web app. 125 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:21,260 So, right. 126 00:05:21,300 --> 00:05:23,200 We're building, I'm building a restful web service. 127 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:27,040 What does boot give me that I wouldn't just have out of the box when I start using spring 128 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:27,440 framework? 129 00:05:28,840 --> 00:05:29,200 Okay. 130 00:05:29,380 --> 00:05:33,900 Well, you start off with the, if you go to the website, start.spring.io, it's basically 131 00:05:33,900 --> 00:05:34,440 a checklist. 132 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:38,140 And you say, I want, I want rest on the backend. 133 00:05:38,280 --> 00:05:41,940 I'm going to use MongoDB and I'm going to pick out spring data. 134 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,220 And what it's going to do, it's going to hand me a running app and I can go in and start 135 00:05:45,220 --> 00:05:51,540 defining the domain objects and the controllers to connect it all together. 136 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:57,380 And I don't need to think about like, uh, you know, do I need to wire a servlet container 137 00:05:57,380 --> 00:06:04,640 or do I need to connect it to Netty or do I need to define view resolvers and all the 138 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:06,780 stuff that you use to connect all these components together? 139 00:06:06,780 --> 00:06:11,660 Instead, you start writing the operational stuff and boot is auto wiring the rest of it 140 00:06:11,660 --> 00:06:12,980 for you out of the box. 141 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:19,280 And, and so, so, uh, go, going on the other end of the, uh, the abstract scale, where, where 142 00:06:19,280 --> 00:06:20,540 do these opinions come from? 143 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:25,640 I mean, if it's like an opinionated way of, of packaging things up, how do they, uh, how 144 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,980 do they evolve and how do they get decided on and put in there? 145 00:06:29,300 --> 00:06:33,340 Uh, well, there's actually a, you know, there's a dedicated team within the spring, within the 146 00:06:33,340 --> 00:06:35,460 entire spring team called the spring boot team. 147 00:06:35,460 --> 00:06:41,740 And, um, they've, they formulated a lot of opinions, but the, the boot team and the whole 148 00:06:41,740 --> 00:06:44,320 spring team is actually very open to user feedback. 149 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:50,360 And so we get a lot of, uh, opinions suggested by the user community, people that are deep, 150 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:55,440 deepened involved with working with MongoDB or there's other third party toolkits. 151 00:06:55,440 --> 00:07:01,460 Um, in fact, we've recently added support for like Microsoft Azure to do some, uh, some 152 00:07:01,460 --> 00:07:06,480 of these, you know, you say opinions, we call these auto configurations or, you know, a boot 153 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:11,400 looks at your class path and says, oh, I see that you have spring MVC on the class path. 154 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,560 I'm going to assume you want to use that and pre-configure some components. 155 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:20,340 But if it sees these particular, like Azure based components on the class path, um, it 156 00:07:20,340 --> 00:07:22,920 can sit there and start to auto configure things on your behalf. 157 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,580 So there's a lot of internal and external contribution to that. 158 00:07:26,580 --> 00:07:31,120 Yeah, I guess, I guess there's some, uh, there's some fine needling to be done between the, 159 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:34,960 the, uh, the semantics of the word opinion versus convention. 160 00:07:35,500 --> 00:07:35,980 Right. 161 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:40,880 And, and like the sort of, and, and then further on default of how, how you would do things. 162 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:46,780 But, um, I mean, that definitely seems like one of the primary advantages is, uh, uh, having, 163 00:07:46,780 --> 00:07:51,280 not having had to think about convention if you want and, and getting things, uh, getting 164 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:57,660 things wired up, but so, so anyway, as, as, as another question, like, well, I presume when 165 00:07:57,660 --> 00:08:01,900 you're writing a book like this, you have to sort of think about, um, what are the difficult 166 00:08:01,900 --> 00:08:05,600 parts about this technology that I need to educate people about? 167 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,820 Like what, what are ways I need to change their thinking so that they understand how they're 168 00:08:09,820 --> 00:08:10,500 doing things? 169 00:08:10,620 --> 00:08:14,860 You know, unless it's just like a straight up manual, which probably is not, but like, are, 170 00:08:14,860 --> 00:08:19,020 are there some of those things where like ways you have to think differently, uh, or, or 171 00:08:19,020 --> 00:08:23,720 in, in a good way or bad way, if you're, you're doing sort of like a, uh, boot led application? 172 00:08:23,940 --> 00:08:27,360 Well, I think more often than not, which you kind of run into, and this is what I try to 173 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:31,920 put into my books, uh, is that, uh, you, you come upon a decision. 174 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:34,280 Well, boot's got boot in this situation. 175 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,860 Um, you know, you may have a certain boot may have a pre-configured opinion, but the 176 00:08:38,860 --> 00:08:41,940 idea is you can step in and say, well, I want to do it a different way. 177 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:43,200 What's the trade-off? 178 00:08:43,260 --> 00:08:45,840 Cause everything, you know, software is built on trade-offs. 179 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:49,000 So I try to write into the book and say, here's the default opinion. 180 00:08:49,020 --> 00:08:51,660 But maybe you, you need to do this other situation. 181 00:08:51,940 --> 00:08:56,340 Here's how you can get in here and just tweak this one part of the configuration. 182 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:00,160 And here's one, here's a reason why you may want to entertain doing that. 183 00:09:00,220 --> 00:09:03,640 Why maybe the default's not the best answer, uh, for that situation. 184 00:09:04,380 --> 00:09:08,780 And so, you know, I try to give them, I try to give them trade-offs so they can evaluate 185 00:09:08,780 --> 00:09:09,180 that. 186 00:09:09,180 --> 00:09:12,380 Cause not every, you know, example that I'm going to put in my book is going to fit the 187 00:09:12,380 --> 00:09:13,600 reader's needs directly. 188 00:09:14,980 --> 00:09:15,840 That makes sense. 189 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:20,200 So, so it's sort of like walking through the, uh, the trade-offs. 190 00:09:20,340 --> 00:09:22,700 I'm just repeating what you said, but no, no, that makes sense. 191 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:27,140 And, and, and I suppose, I suppose, uh, you know, in the book you give examples of like, 192 00:09:27,180 --> 00:09:31,620 if you were to do things this way, it would imply this, uh, this, this path of nastiness 193 00:09:31,620 --> 00:09:34,160 to go down versus this other path of nastiness. 194 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:35,560 Choose which path you want. 195 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:42,080 Well, I, I try to minimize usage of nastiness when I write spring apps, but, uh, yeah, now 196 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:46,520 I can throw you, since we've been talking abstract, I can move to a little bit more concrete, the 197 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:48,160 examples that are in the book. 198 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:48,540 Yeah. 199 00:09:48,620 --> 00:09:48,760 Yeah. 200 00:09:48,820 --> 00:09:54,280 Um, and, and I can do that by, uh, citing a, a, a familiar person that we all are, must 201 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:55,280 know, Josh Long. 202 00:09:55,500 --> 00:10:00,380 So, you know how Josh Long travels around to conferences and when he gets up and does a 203 00:10:00,380 --> 00:10:03,500 presentation, what's the first thing that he does at any of these presentations? 204 00:10:03,500 --> 00:10:04,900 What does he do with the audience? 205 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,060 I think he takes a selfie picture, right? 206 00:10:08,700 --> 00:10:09,600 Figure out who's on the Twitter. 207 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:16,520 So, so I had this idea two years ago for a SpringOne demo of, I wanted to get up and 208 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:18,380 demo the software stack of spring. 209 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:23,020 And the paradigm was, let me take a picture of, let me take a selfie and upload it to the 210 00:10:23,020 --> 00:10:24,740 app that I'm demoing to the audience. 211 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:31,640 So basically in the book, we build, build a social media app where you get to upload 212 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:35,300 pictures, um, and made comments on them. 213 00:10:35,340 --> 00:10:36,940 And I call it spring-a-gram. 214 00:10:40,460 --> 00:10:41,180 No trademark. 215 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:48,300 So throughout, it's also partly inspired because there's this hilarious movie called The Interns 216 00:10:48,300 --> 00:10:50,840 where they're trying to come up with an app and the guy like says, I've got this great 217 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:51,560 idea for an app. 218 00:10:51,660 --> 00:10:54,940 You upload a picture on your phone and then somebody, the other guy tries to tell them 219 00:10:54,940 --> 00:10:55,460 that's Instagram. 220 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:56,840 And he goes, no, my idea is different. 221 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:01,960 When it's absolutely not different, but, um, so in this one, you know, I, I go through 222 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:06,440 the book and actually chapter by chapter, we build up this, uh, spring-a-gram app because 223 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,040 you need things like you need a front end web page. 224 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:14,040 You need to write stuff into the database and the MongoDB in this example. 225 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,340 And we need things like web sockets and we need messaging. 226 00:11:17,340 --> 00:11:21,220 And I even expanded it into a microservice-based solution in one of the chapters. 227 00:11:22,660 --> 00:11:29,340 But it's all real realistic type application versus, um, uh, something you kind of. 228 00:11:30,300 --> 00:11:30,660 Yeah. 229 00:11:30,660 --> 00:11:35,060 I noticed in all of that, I mean, it wasn't just building the app, but you looked at testing 230 00:11:35,060 --> 00:11:35,760 strategies. 231 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,500 You talked about deployment, things like that too. 232 00:11:38,540 --> 00:11:41,160 So do you feel like you covered a good life cycle? 233 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,940 If I'm a Spring Boot developer, I'm trying to learn Spring Boot, you're trying to show 234 00:11:44,940 --> 00:11:49,700 me some of the right ways to do some test-driven procedures and how do I package this thing 235 00:11:49,700 --> 00:11:51,960 up and run it on different types of runtimes? 236 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:55,400 Was that something you wanted to do is make sure you got that end-to-end story figured out? 237 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:57,380 Uh, exactly. 238 00:11:57,660 --> 00:12:02,420 You know, that's, I really wanted to show here's how to start from the beginning from our start.spring.io 239 00:12:02,420 --> 00:12:07,940 and, um, carried all the way to the end to deploying it to, uh, of course, Pivotal Cloud Foundry. 240 00:12:09,580 --> 00:12:09,900 Naturally. 241 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,480 So one of the other things I noticed, obviously you mentioned, you did a lot with reactive 242 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:19,620 here, and we've talked a little bit about reactive on the podcast so far, but as you look 243 00:12:19,620 --> 00:12:25,100 at Spring 2, you know, what are the things that step out for you in, in Spring Boot 2? 244 00:12:25,460 --> 00:12:27,320 Like, is it the reactive, are there other pieces? 245 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,880 I mean, it's first, our audience here, who's going to start hearing more and more about 246 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:35,260 Spring Boot 2, especially at SpringOne platform coming up, you know, give the sneak peek. 247 00:12:35,380 --> 00:12:39,000 What do you think are the real headlines for, for Boot 2.0 and which ones did you cover in 248 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:39,300 the book? 249 00:12:40,380 --> 00:12:44,380 Well, the, you know, part of the biggest stuff in Boot 2.0 is that it jumps up. 250 00:12:44,380 --> 00:12:49,120 It's, it's based off Spring Framework 5, which is our latest major release of the Spring 251 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:49,840 Framework. 252 00:12:50,100 --> 00:12:54,500 And with that comes everything being re-based on Java 8. 253 00:12:55,180 --> 00:13:01,100 The previous version of Spring 4 was based on Java 6, which is now Java 6 and 7 are both 254 00:13:01,100 --> 00:13:03,580 end of life, and people are now talking about Java 9. 255 00:13:04,660 --> 00:13:09,920 So the big thing is we get to jump up to Java 8, and there's a lot of new programming paradigms 256 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:16,520 right there to take advantage of, like stream APIs and, you know, method handles and a lot 257 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:21,900 of stuff that feeds towards functional style programming, which then if you jump into Project 258 00:13:21,900 --> 00:13:24,560 Reactor, Project Reactor is based on Java 8. 259 00:13:24,660 --> 00:13:30,840 And that's where we get really deep into this, you know, functional programming style, you 260 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:32,800 know, a reactive functional style. 261 00:13:33,060 --> 00:13:38,720 And to be specific, it's really the reactive streams spec that we're talking about here. 262 00:13:39,820 --> 00:13:43,680 There's a lot of different reactive programming paradigms out there that's been around for 263 00:13:43,680 --> 00:13:47,960 decades, but the one we're really diving into is the reactive streams spec that comes with 264 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:48,540 back pressure. 265 00:13:51,300 --> 00:13:55,280 So there's been, you know, there's a whole bunch of new APIs that the Spring team has 266 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:59,400 probably spent over a year on, maybe two years. 267 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:05,400 Because I remember Nexus in 2015 talking with Rawson, who works primarily on Spring MVC stuff, 268 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:11,780 and he was, we were talking in the car driving to a jug meeting about reactive stuff back then. 269 00:14:11,780 --> 00:14:14,640 And they were like, you know, we need to do a lot of analysis on this and make sure we come 270 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,760 out with a good, a good approach to it instead of just throwing something out there to the 271 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:18,120 community. 272 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:21,860 And I think they've done a fantastic job at that. 273 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:23,000 Yeah. 274 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:25,900 And you feel like with the Spring Boot and Spring in general, again, that you're putting 275 00:14:25,900 --> 00:14:30,540 some opinions on that, on how the right way to do, or at least a good way to do reactive 276 00:14:30,540 --> 00:14:33,160 programming outside of what you could override later on? 277 00:14:34,740 --> 00:14:35,180 Absolutely. 278 00:14:36,060 --> 00:14:40,800 You know, one thing that's definitely gone into Spring Boot, too, is that, for instance, 279 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:42,940 you're like, well, I want to use MongoDB. 280 00:14:43,140 --> 00:14:48,180 And I keep going to MongoDB because it's one of the data stores that we support that actually 281 00:14:48,180 --> 00:14:51,380 also supports the reactive streams spec. 282 00:14:51,820 --> 00:14:52,200 I see. 283 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:58,660 So you get to pick a dependency of, I want Spring Data MongoDB or I want Spring Data MongoDB 284 00:14:58,660 --> 00:14:59,420 reactive. 285 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:03,080 I get to pick one of those two options with boot 2.0. 286 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:08,720 And from there, you know, the boot's going to automatically configure up and hand me the 287 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,120 components to talk reactively to MongoDB. 288 00:15:11,380 --> 00:15:12,940 And I, you know, then I can run with it from there. 289 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:20,240 So maybe using your, um, your, um, your Instagram killer app, which, you know, good, good luck. 290 00:15:20,460 --> 00:15:25,080 That's, that's a good market to get into, uh, maybe narrowed down to conferences. 291 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,980 I have a feeling that conference software has really big margins based on how little they 292 00:15:28,980 --> 00:15:29,720 update it. 293 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:37,660 But anyhow, like, you know, just like explain why I'm trying to avoid saying what, but explain 294 00:15:37,660 --> 00:15:40,980 why you would choose to like do, do a reactive thing. 295 00:15:40,980 --> 00:15:45,760 Like what, what would the reactive style be like in reference hopefully to your application? 296 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:50,940 What would make you choose to do things that way versus, I don't know, unreactive things? 297 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:51,820 What would that be? 298 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:52,560 Passive? 299 00:15:53,740 --> 00:15:55,480 Uh, well, I guess they'd call it a blocking. 300 00:15:55,700 --> 00:15:58,240 So the big thing is, well, you know, what is, what is reactive? 301 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,760 And reactive means non-blocking asynchronous APIs. 302 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:06,840 And, you know, the real thing is, is while, while the file is being uploaded, you know, 303 00:16:06,860 --> 00:16:10,800 in this case, let me, well, the use case is, um, somebody is going to go to the webpage. 304 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:12,880 They want to upload an image. 305 00:16:13,500 --> 00:16:17,560 After the image is uploaded, we need to store some of the information in MongoDB. 306 00:16:17,700 --> 00:16:20,220 And some of it's just going to be a stored file. 307 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:25,720 And then we're going to send the hand, the user back a redirect to go back and look at the image. 308 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:27,840 So retrieve it and display it. 309 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:32,800 And then also then later on, they can add, you know, comment on it just like any social media platform. 310 00:16:33,700 --> 00:16:41,860 So to do that reactively means that, um, everything is being like, you know, uploading the file is done in an asynchronous way. 311 00:16:41,860 --> 00:16:53,080 And that is there's, while, you know, I, you can start the upload process, but if the system's going to interrupt it, don't, don't hold up threads or other resources waiting for the operation to complete. 312 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:57,900 While you're writing data to MongoDB, uh, you don't need to hold up the resources. 313 00:16:57,900 --> 00:17:01,040 Instead, you can say, Hey, Mongo, I've got the data here. 314 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:02,060 Let me know when you're ready. 315 00:17:02,100 --> 00:17:08,720 In the meantime, I'm going to go over and do this other stuff and not waste resources, hang in here, wait, come back to me. 316 00:17:09,580 --> 00:17:10,140 Right, right. 317 00:17:10,140 --> 00:17:17,600 It's sort of like internally, metaphorically, the little, uh, the little Tron people who are running the computer, they can go get a cup of coffee while they're waiting. 318 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,180 They don't have to like, uh, block and stand there. 319 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:22,380 I don't know. 320 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:24,000 That's how I think of things, I guess. 321 00:17:24,220 --> 00:17:38,560 And, and so, um, so, so am I right to think that like, if you are doing all your reactive stuff and then whatever, whatever this serverless business is that comes along, there seems to be a pretty, uh, structural overlap between these two things. 322 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:46,860 Cause you know, I was, uh, I was talking with some, there were ISV people, if you will, not an enterprise who is figuring out stuff to do with serverless. 323 00:17:46,860 --> 00:17:55,160 And we were talking through various scenarios and it seemed like, uh, it's pretty much very similar to, to, to what you're just describing, except without any orchestration on top of it. 324 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:58,520 It's basically just the holes you shoot your asynchronous things down. 325 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:08,260 Uh, I don't know what would be on top of that, but I mean, I mean, is there like, what kind of overlap is there between these, uh, these two, uh, exciting areas of, of development? 326 00:18:08,820 --> 00:18:18,620 Well, you know, you know, you have a overlap there's, there's, you know, this is not the only toolkit that's out there that does reactive streams or that does asynchronous non-blocking operations. 327 00:18:18,620 --> 00:18:19,660 There's a lot of things. 328 00:18:19,660 --> 00:18:32,780 And so, um, one thing that Rosson had explained to me and that has become evident with what they, with what the spring team has released is that we don't want everybody to say, hmm, am I going to write this app in a classic spring sense? 329 00:18:32,780 --> 00:18:35,540 Or do I have to go write this in a completely new paradigm? 330 00:18:35,660 --> 00:18:38,680 Do I have to throw everything that I learned away and start over again? 331 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,160 And I would find that frankly off-putting. 332 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:51,780 And so they spent a lot of effort to where, you know, you can define your web controllers and your data repositories and stuff the same in either, in either paradigm. 333 00:18:51,900 --> 00:18:58,460 And it's really when you get down to the nuts and bolts that you need to, you know, alter the way you're going to actually do some of these operations. 334 00:18:58,460 --> 00:19:09,720 But the way you declare your spring, you know, whether you write a spring MVC blocking controller or you create a spring web flux non-blocking controller, they can look virtually identical. 335 00:19:11,460 --> 00:19:19,960 But still, you know, one's going to leverage the classic servlet runtime container and the other one can leverage NETI's asynchronous reactive container. 336 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:26,440 So when you think about that, I was going through your chapter on testing and thinking about that. 337 00:19:26,780 --> 00:19:37,360 I mean, do you think with reactive or even dependency injection where there can be at least a sense of a little more unpredictability, does it change how you approach testing and writing tests when I've got auto configuration happening? 338 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:43,200 Things that can feel like black box or reactive apps where things are calling back later than I expected. 339 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:52,540 How do you think about testing when you don't just have this kind of procedural blocking sort of application with hard-coded references, you know exactly what you're referencing to? 340 00:19:53,180 --> 00:19:57,760 Do you find that that changes or it's just kind of a different, you know, a couple of different things? 341 00:19:58,380 --> 00:20:06,640 Well, you know, as somebody whose first job assignment in this industry was testing other people's code, there's a lot of different ways to slice testing. 342 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:17,940 And I tried to go into a lot of detail, granted that whole books have been written on testings, so I wanted to try to go, hey, you know, some things you need to test are very small, like unit tests. 343 00:20:18,060 --> 00:20:23,220 Unit tests should not run aground of any kind of react, either blocking or non-blocking. 344 00:20:23,300 --> 00:20:31,200 It should be below that level because when you talk about blocking, now you're talking at a higher level and involving a container of some sorts. 345 00:20:31,980 --> 00:20:40,000 So some things you need to write unit testing, but you can easily overlook, hmm, I tested all these units, but I forgot to test what happens when you put them all together. 346 00:20:42,580 --> 00:20:45,280 So that's why we also need integration testing. 347 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,440 I need some sense of end-to-end testing or test-to-thread of testing. 348 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:57,480 So in boot 1.5 and earlier, they had the ability to spin up an entire embedded instance of Tomcat for one test case and test stuff like that. 349 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:05,760 But then they added a third option called a slice, saying, you know, in this case, I want everything to be mocked out except the data layer. 350 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:07,720 I want to talk to a real database in this case. 351 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,040 Well, let's let everything else be mocked out. 352 00:21:10,620 --> 00:21:19,700 So you can really – I think it's very well managed, and even the reactor team has a test library to assist with saying, well, in this case, we need to actually test a reactive flow, 353 00:21:19,700 --> 00:21:27,020 and I need to simulate that at this point, it's going to wait a whole hour virtually before it does the next test step. 354 00:21:28,500 --> 00:21:29,040 Got it. 355 00:21:29,340 --> 00:21:29,540 Okay. 356 00:21:29,780 --> 00:21:32,340 Yeah, I'm just curious as to how we think about that with our developers. 357 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:37,980 And I guess kind of related to that, you talked a little bit about tooling in the book as well. 358 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:38,940 You look at dev tooling. 359 00:21:38,940 --> 00:21:45,660 I mean, do you have kind of a must-have for Spring developers, whether they're getting started or more advanced when it comes to IDEs, 360 00:21:45,740 --> 00:21:50,960 when it comes to sort of dev tooling or other sort of framework components that you like to latch on? 361 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,560 I mean, what makes a good Spring dev experience in your mind? 362 00:21:55,600 --> 00:22:04,460 Well, I – you know, one of the modules that I thought was the coolest addition was when Spring Boot added the DevTools module, which, you know, that was a few releases ago. 363 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:10,700 And that's something that sits there and watch it while you – it's – you just add this one dependency, and it sits there and watches your app. 364 00:22:10,700 --> 00:22:17,800 And if it detects a save or a refresh of the project, it just automatically relaunches the application context. 365 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:26,160 Instead of restarting the entire app, it just restarts essentially the user code that you wrote, and so it does it very quickly. 366 00:22:26,460 --> 00:22:35,580 And also they hooked in integration to Live Reload, which is an independent library that it's all built around the premise of I've got a web page in the browser, 367 00:22:35,580 --> 00:22:40,840 and I need it to automatically click the refresh button for me as soon as it detects there was an update. 368 00:22:42,140 --> 00:22:47,180 And that kind of stuff to me, that just speeds up the clock cycles of I'm going to go update this template. 369 00:22:47,500 --> 00:22:49,100 Let me see a refresh on the web page. 370 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,320 I'm going to update this service. 371 00:22:51,500 --> 00:22:57,920 I want to see it refresh on the web page without having to jump back and forth and click a bunch of buttons and stuff like that. 372 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:06,240 Now, in addition to your soon-to-be industry-leading conference selfie-sharing app, like, do you know off the top of your head? 373 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:16,760 And maybe you know too, Richard, like, do you know some good examples of, like, applications people would know that, like, are basically boot-led that do a lot of the things we've just been talking about? 374 00:23:17,380 --> 00:23:21,580 The most stuff I hear about is people like Matt Stein that are in the field all the time, and they keep coming back. 375 00:23:21,580 --> 00:23:36,280 And I couldn't put my finger on it until I think he stated one time in an email, and it's like – he's like, I can't believe the amount of acceptance out there in the community that's been received based on make everything a boot app, a self-contained boot app. 376 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:48,280 I don't think we could have predicted the success that has happened in microservices with the fact of make every single microservice a boot app because then you have this common paradigm of here's a JAR file. 377 00:23:48,420 --> 00:23:55,520 It does one thing, and it does it well, and with the Spring framework, you can then link to the – in Spring Cloud, we can link to the other microservices. 378 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,660 We can run 50 copies of this, two copies of that. 379 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:08,900 Everything is connected and talking and integrated, and it just seems like the boot paradigm to me is almost bigger, in my opinion, than certain other things like Docker. 380 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:10,480 Shots fired. 381 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:11,440 There you go. 382 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:20,660 So, I mean, in your mind, when you do – a couple questions left, but when you look at something like boot for everything, I mean, boot's not lightweight per se, right? 383 00:24:20,660 --> 00:24:27,380 It's not like running a 32-meg Node.js app somewhere, and now you're going to get a lot of power in exchange. 384 00:24:27,380 --> 00:24:38,520 But what do you think or what do you say that's sometimes the concern that, like, you know, a Java app – and maybe it's a Java app, it's not a boot app – but that Java isn't always the best fit for microservices because it has a larger footprint. 385 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:40,320 What do you kind of say to that challenge? 386 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:44,800 Well, I don't know because I've been hearing that for I don't know how many years. 387 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:51,600 I remember – I think when I met Rod Johnson in 2008 at the – what was then called the Spring Experience Conference, and I chatted with him. 388 00:24:51,700 --> 00:24:58,460 He said back then, you know, it seems popular to criticize Java, and it seems like that popularity has not faltered yet. 389 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,420 It seems like – what's this most recent survey? 390 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:08,660 Was it from the people behind JRebel had commented that, like, one out of two Java developers are using Spring. 391 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,900 And it's like Java is, like, one of the most – like, the industry standard language. 392 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:25,000 So to sit there and say, but your JAR files aren't small enough or something sounds kind of, like, kind of petty or, you know, not a very well-rooted thing. 393 00:25:25,100 --> 00:25:31,300 It's – I think a lot of people demonstrate their support for boot by downloading it. 394 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,540 How many millions of downloads a month of boot are happening? 395 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:36,260 Yeah, it's crazy stuff. 396 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:39,160 So it seems like – 397 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:40,340 This, you know, this works. 398 00:25:40,460 --> 00:25:42,420 This works for people solving problems. 399 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:43,400 So what else do you need? 400 00:25:44,020 --> 00:25:44,380 Absolutely. 401 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:54,640 Yeah, I mean, sometimes it's nice to have crazy high density, but at the same time, computing has gotten cheaper, and sometimes fighting over a gig of memory or 500 megs, sometimes that's not worth the productivity benefits. 402 00:25:55,180 --> 00:26:01,060 So then I got another abstract question, especially given your background, Richard. 403 00:26:01,060 --> 00:26:07,160 So I've been – you know, I was never a big Microsoft.net developer back when I did real work. 404 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:08,880 But my perception – 405 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:09,980 Sorry to hear that. 406 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:30,720 But my perception of that community was that there was a lot of things built in, that you had sort of like a unified stack with a – I don't know, opinionated ways of doing things by virtue of it being not – at the time when I was doing it an open community and things like that. 407 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:41,300 And then, you know, as I've been paying more attention to the way that, like, spring-based Java stuff has evolved, it seems like kind of similar to, right or wrong, that perception I had of the .NET world. 408 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:48,160 So first, like in the .NET world, do they have a lot more of these – historically, are there a lot more, like, opinions and defaults baked into it? 409 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:54,900 And too, like, I don't know, to you who knows these things, like, does it feel similar between these two or is it still vastly different? 410 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,120 That's an interesting observation. 411 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:04,460 I mean, I think there was more baked in because there was a smaller community outside, if you will, because it was an open source, right? 412 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,540 So more had to be in the product because you weren't going to bolt on as many things potentially. 413 00:27:08,540 --> 00:27:17,740 So, yeah, as a .NET developer, you had a lot of crazy great things just baked in to help you build web apps and background apps and all these sort of fun things. 414 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:24,300 Now, as it's become a little more open, you have a lot more of a package ecosystem, too, of bringing things in to leverage. 415 00:27:24,500 --> 00:27:26,960 But I wouldn't really call it super opinionated. 416 00:27:27,340 --> 00:27:29,360 There were still lots of ways to do the same things. 417 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,280 You didn't get shoved down one route or another. 418 00:27:31,700 --> 00:27:33,360 So I think Boot is still unique in that. 419 00:27:33,420 --> 00:27:36,880 But, Greg, interested in your thoughts on – do you see a similarity there? 420 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,520 Are they still kind of on different strategic paths? 421 00:27:40,860 --> 00:27:45,920 I actually had somebody that used to work for me that knew both Java and .NET, 422 00:27:46,120 --> 00:27:52,820 and he would – his joke was to sneak into my cubicle and try to install a .NET app without me seeing it, 423 00:27:52,820 --> 00:27:58,960 where from his machine over the network, he could command the CD-ROM drive to open up on my machine while – 424 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:00,580 and I'd be like, what is that? 425 00:28:00,580 --> 00:28:06,320 And he would also change the screen wallpaper and stuff. 426 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,180 And it took him, like, five lines of code with .NET because of all the pre-baked APIs. 427 00:28:10,860 --> 00:28:11,420 That's true. 428 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,360 It was very opinionated for Windows, very easy to talk to Windows. 429 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,140 So at least that was something that was definitely made very simple. 430 00:28:17,500 --> 00:28:18,220 Yeah, yeah. 431 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,240 I mean, that's kind of when I start hearing about pre-baked APIs, I kind of think of that paradigm. 432 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:26,160 And I'm like, I think of, well, is that all that you can do? 433 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:32,120 And when I see people look at boot and say, oh, I don't know, is that a little too much black magic in there and stuff? 434 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:37,540 And that's why I try to, in the book, make a point of showing, you know, well, here's what's happening. 435 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:42,200 In fact, there's excerpts of code about here's the auto configuration, and this is all that it is. 436 00:28:42,220 --> 00:28:43,280 It's not that complicated. 437 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:49,800 And, in fact, let's go write our own auto configuration and register it, and you can make it, you know, its own first-class citizen. 438 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:58,440 And there's actually companies out there or OSS communities that are publishing their own third-party boot auto configuration options. 439 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:06,200 So I think it's much more extensible and, you know, write, you know, do what you like options when you're talking about boot. 440 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:12,740 Now, I can't comment on .NET for current sake, but so that had to be about 10 years ago, but that's my take on it. 441 00:29:12,740 --> 00:29:20,620 If I can just offer a suggestion for the third edition of your book, you might want to incorporate opening CD-ROM drives somehow into there. 442 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:22,820 I think that would be great. 443 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:25,980 Maybe integrate with the local operating. 444 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:30,340 It reminds me of a joke way back when we played on one of our coworkers. 445 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:36,960 We were, like, you know, at a startup, so we were in some big, ugly room of some cheap space we had rented, all of us. 446 00:29:37,300 --> 00:29:44,020 And every day for about a month, we would, like, move our friend, let's say our – it was our friend. 447 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,160 Our friend's desk, like, an inch closer to another desk. 448 00:29:47,820 --> 00:29:49,820 And, you know, so it's kind of imperceptible. 449 00:29:49,820 --> 00:29:53,720 And I remember one day he came in and finally noticed it, and I think he just, like, lost it. 450 00:29:54,020 --> 00:29:56,160 He just got very upset at that prank. 451 00:29:56,500 --> 00:30:01,400 So it sounds like maybe you were much better at receiving pranks of having your CD-ROM drive open. 452 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:03,060 Big fan. 453 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:03,700 Yeah. 454 00:30:05,180 --> 00:30:06,280 Moving the desk by an inch. 455 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,740 Well, so, I mean, I think that's a pretty good overview there of the book. 456 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:15,440 I mean, I assume the book's available everywhere, right, where fine books are sold. 457 00:30:15,460 --> 00:30:15,800 Oh, yeah. 458 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:16,320 Yeah. 459 00:30:16,820 --> 00:30:20,680 Yes, go to Amazon right now and get your copy. 460 00:30:20,780 --> 00:30:22,260 Learning Spring Boots, second edition. 461 00:30:22,820 --> 00:30:24,740 So how long do you think it takes to go through the book? 462 00:30:24,740 --> 00:30:29,580 Well, it took me a year to go through it, but I don't want to say that that's the story for anybody. 463 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:31,800 Yeah. 464 00:30:31,860 --> 00:30:35,060 Well, I think writing it's another story. 465 00:30:36,460 --> 00:30:40,360 But I guess you – how many times did you say in writing the book you ended up reading the book? 466 00:30:40,660 --> 00:30:41,120 Oh, my goodness. 467 00:30:41,220 --> 00:30:44,140 I've probably read each chapter three or four times. 468 00:30:44,260 --> 00:30:47,840 I think I would go – at a certain point – now, this is a tip for any author. 469 00:30:48,020 --> 00:30:51,720 At a certain point, you've got to stop reading it because every time you read it, you're going to find a mistake. 470 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:52,820 Now, that's true. 471 00:30:52,820 --> 00:30:57,280 You have to realize when it goes to press, there are mistakes in there, and you have to let it go. 472 00:30:57,900 --> 00:30:58,700 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 473 00:30:59,180 --> 00:31:02,420 Yeah, that's a nice moment of calm when you just decide that, like, screw it. 474 00:31:02,580 --> 00:31:03,740 I'm done with this thing. 475 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:05,780 That's enjoyable. 476 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:07,360 A little nerve-wracking maybe. 477 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:09,400 Well, then you also write some other books, right? 478 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,120 Yeah, this is actually the fourth book that I've written. 479 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:22,120 I wrote its predecessor, Learning Spring Boot, and just that's the first edition, and that was based on Boot 1.1.6, which is now an antique, I guess. 480 00:31:23,420 --> 00:31:24,720 That one was really popular. 481 00:31:25,260 --> 00:31:30,620 That was the first book that hit the market that was on Spring Boot, I'll say in English. 482 00:31:30,820 --> 00:31:36,660 I think somebody beat me in Japanese, putting out a book, but I'll say in English. 483 00:31:37,500 --> 00:31:46,360 And that was real popular because that came out – I think I signed the contract, like, only weeks after Boot came out back in 2013. 484 00:31:48,060 --> 00:31:55,940 So – and then before that, I wrote a book called Python Testing Cookbook that actually people are still buying today, amazingly, back in 2011. 485 00:31:57,340 --> 00:31:59,300 And then you write some fiction books too, right? 486 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:02,660 Yes, that is correct. 487 00:32:02,900 --> 00:32:05,340 I've actually written a – I've written a novel. 488 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:11,360 It's sort of a YA speculative fiction thing, and it's slated to be published next March. 489 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:22,100 Oh, you know, I was looking through your books and thinking, like, I guess – I've come across a lot of people at Pivotal, well, which is to say two, who, like, write fiction books. 490 00:32:22,180 --> 00:32:24,880 But two is a lot more than the zero that I've ever come across. 491 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:29,940 I wonder if there's other people inside Pivotal who write fiction on the side. 492 00:32:29,980 --> 00:32:34,240 Or maybe their job is the side and the fiction is the main table or whatever. 493 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,000 But it's an interesting phenomena to see. 494 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:45,060 Yeah, well, I can tell you my first cube mate that I had at my first job ever was – he was actually a graduate with a degree in English. 495 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,400 And so working on software was just his day job. 496 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,000 He was actually a wannabe author. 497 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:57,420 And so back then, self-pubbing was a whole different thing 20 years ago than it is today. 498 00:32:58,040 --> 00:32:58,380 Yeah, yeah. 499 00:32:58,500 --> 00:33:00,480 Seems like it's a lot easier nowadays to do. 500 00:33:00,780 --> 00:33:01,600 So it is. 501 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:06,980 And I actually provide assistance to – my wife's actually an author and has published seven novels. 502 00:33:07,300 --> 00:33:09,780 And so half of them are published with small presses. 503 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:11,060 The other half are self-pubbed. 504 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,020 Well, that's interesting. 505 00:33:14,220 --> 00:33:21,920 So when you're writing – when you're writing any type of your books, do you, like, hole yourself up in a little hobbit hole somewhere? 506 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,300 Like, how do you, like, pay attention to it? 507 00:33:24,300 --> 00:33:26,020 Or do you have – do you not have that problem? 508 00:33:26,100 --> 00:33:29,260 Can you just, like, write and be interrupted all the time and everything's fine? 509 00:33:29,260 --> 00:33:32,080 How do you set up the environment to get stuff done? 510 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:38,820 Well, I would typically – my best writing would be I would write at night when everybody was asleep and no one was disturbing me. 511 00:33:40,140 --> 00:33:44,620 And when I found out that that paradigm is absolutely required when you're recording video. 512 00:33:45,700 --> 00:33:46,480 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 513 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,760 Because I've – we got – I have three kids. 514 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:50,340 They're eight, six, and three. 515 00:33:50,540 --> 00:33:56,540 And so there's just no way I can sit there and write a tech chapter with five – you know, an interruption every five minutes. 516 00:33:56,860 --> 00:33:57,740 Yeah, yeah. 517 00:33:57,820 --> 00:34:02,940 I've noticed that the kids are not very good at trusting that this concept of could you just wait? 518 00:34:03,420 --> 00:34:05,660 They're like – and basically their answer is always no. 519 00:34:06,980 --> 00:34:07,880 I can't. 520 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,480 They'll wait about 30 seconds, and that's what they – that's what waiting is. 521 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:12,260 Yeah, yeah. 522 00:34:12,260 --> 00:34:15,160 They don't practice the asynchronous sort of thing. 523 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,080 Very highly synchronous, these kids. 524 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:18,800 Lots of blocking required. 525 00:34:19,220 --> 00:34:20,260 Well, that's great. 526 00:34:20,340 --> 00:34:21,520 That's a good overview of it. 527 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:32,860 And, you know, I'm always – I'll have to go get a copy myself to read through it, and then maybe I'll – you know, I always try – as I try to do here, I try to get people to explain to me what reactive and backflow is. 528 00:34:32,940 --> 00:34:36,820 And I think so far you've given me the most simple explanation. 529 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,920 You just basically expanded it out into a bunch of words that I already know, which is great. 530 00:34:41,300 --> 00:34:43,680 But it would be even better to see an example application. 531 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:48,860 And, you know, just as a side note, I've been looking at several example applications recently. 532 00:34:49,680 --> 00:35:03,000 And, yeah, you know, it's really easy to have a simple application be as complex as you want it to be, which sounds a little weird, but it also means that, like, if you think your application is overly complex, it's probably pretty normal, right? 533 00:35:03,060 --> 00:35:06,120 Like, everyone gets upset about how complicated their apps are. 534 00:35:06,220 --> 00:35:10,380 But you look at all these applications, and they have a lot of things running around as well. 535 00:35:10,380 --> 00:35:17,060 So the sort of, like, mean, if you will, of complexity seems pretty ordinary across projects. 536 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:18,740 I don't know if that's true or not. 537 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:19,800 But anyways... 538 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,660 Well, I think it's a good microcosm of real software development. 539 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:30,640 It's like you just start with something simple, and it keeps expanding and getting more complex to solve this and that and the other for sure. 540 00:35:30,980 --> 00:35:31,160 Yeah. 541 00:35:31,420 --> 00:35:31,920 All right. 542 00:35:31,980 --> 00:35:32,360 Well, great. 543 00:35:32,460 --> 00:35:33,200 Well, thanks for being on. 544 00:35:33,260 --> 00:35:35,580 Well, as always, this has been Pivotal Conversations. 545 00:35:35,580 --> 00:35:44,700 If you want to get the most recent episodes or peruse the back catalog, you know, maybe it's late at night, and you've got time on your own, and you don't need to write or make a video. 546 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,980 You can just sit there and listen to old episodes. 547 00:35:48,740 --> 00:35:52,800 You can go to SoundCloud.com slash Pivotal Conversations. 548 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,920 And every Thursday or so, we post formal show notes at Pivotal.io slash podcast. 549 00:35:58,860 --> 00:36:01,420 And with that, we'll see everyone next time. 550 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:02,000 Bye-bye.