1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:05,840 All right. Well, what I want to talk about as we open up. Well, first of all, you want to briefly introduce yourself, Kest? 2 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:19,320 Sure. My name is Mike Baranek. I'm a VP at Pivotal, and I now run what is called our education and enablement practice for customers and partners. 3 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,820 Well, that's something I can always use more of, so that'll be fun to come back to. 4 00:00:23,820 --> 00:00:31,260 But here's what I wanted to ask you all. So we're in this whipsaw weather stuff. It's time for the weather update. Everyone enjoys this. 5 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:41,880 And it's warm, but I feel like it's just cool enough that I can pretend like I live in Orange County and wear shorts and a hoodie, which is exciting for me, like I'm in a Veronica Mars episode or something. 6 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:50,500 But let me ask you this, both of you. So I always have lots of issues with a hoodie, primarily because it has sort of like this soft outerness to it. 7 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:56,240 I feel like I need something more rugged than like a soft outer thing. Like if I get stuck in the rain, I'm going to get soaking wet. 8 00:00:56,860 --> 00:01:05,180 So, you know, are you all big hoodie wearers? And then do you wear like the kind of like more structurally sound waterproof outside? 9 00:01:05,380 --> 00:01:12,360 Like what can you give me over here? I feel like I need some sort of more assurance in a hoodie than just cloth. 10 00:01:13,960 --> 00:01:22,040 Wow, that's a, yeah, you put a lot of thought into this. So I'm actually wearing one today because up here in Seattle, it's like a high of 50 at the most. 11 00:01:22,100 --> 00:01:25,420 I was in the Bahamas last week, so my entire body is messed up at the moment. 12 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:32,800 And I was not wearing a hoodie there because I was living dangerously. But yeah, no, I go with the regular cloth hoodie. I don't go with like the slick kind. 13 00:01:33,180 --> 00:01:38,000 It's just up here, if it rains, you just have to accept it anyway. No one uses umbrellas. 14 00:01:40,140 --> 00:01:44,800 How about over there? I know you're only temporarily in St. Louis, right? But what are they doing there? 15 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:54,620 So I typically go sweaters. And then some of the sweaters, you could catch a lining for the wind. 16 00:01:55,180 --> 00:02:02,800 So the Colorado, you know, where I am most of the time, heavy winds, little bit of snow, not a lot of rain. 17 00:02:03,340 --> 00:02:09,400 So the sweater with, you know, a bit of a liner in it goes a long way throughout the entire... 18 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:14,820 Now, that's fascinating. Now, what is this liner thing? Is that like one of those synthetic fiber shirts you put underneath? 19 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:17,840 Like, or just a normal t-shirt? What's a liner? 20 00:02:18,900 --> 00:02:24,640 Yeah, think of that rain jacket, you know, you'd put on the outside and that's on the inside. 21 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:25,320 Oh. 22 00:02:25,540 --> 00:02:30,240 So kind of the wind protection, if you will, but then the sweater look and feel. 23 00:02:30,580 --> 00:02:33,500 Windbreaker, they used to call that, right? If I recall. 24 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:35,880 Windbreaker plus sweater. 25 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:36,360 Yeah. 26 00:02:37,300 --> 00:02:38,340 That's the new combo. 27 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,720 You know, you know, before we get to the news and then the actual technical stuff, this reminds 28 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:48,280 me of one more thing. I was, my daughter had her, how old is she? It's probably important 29 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:51,880 that I know that. Her fourth birthday party and she had a Wild Kratz theme. So of course, 30 00:02:51,920 --> 00:02:56,400 everyone made a vest. Not everyone. My wife made a bunch of Wild Kratz vests, if you're familiar 31 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:06,660 with that. And so we had to buy nine size 40 t-shirts. And so it's hard to find that because 32 00:03:06,660 --> 00:03:10,740 they failed to deliver them in time. And I went to like Sears and some other department 33 00:03:10,740 --> 00:03:16,600 stores and they had like white label in-house members only jackets. And I felt like I should 34 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,860 have almost bought one of those, but I didn't because I feel like that would satisfy what 35 00:03:20,860 --> 00:03:20,860 I'm looking for. 36 00:03:20,860 --> 00:03:23,440 I was just about to make a members only joke. And when you're talking about windbreakers, 37 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:25,380 I can't believe you pulled out the members only garments. 38 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:31,060 Exactly. I mean, it's from the same era, right? When all of our grandparents were still alive 39 00:03:31,060 --> 00:03:36,140 and there were windbreakers and members only jackets. And like, you still see this with some 40 00:03:36,140 --> 00:03:41,980 older people is there's almost this uniform of what looks like a dry cleaned windbreaker 41 00:03:41,980 --> 00:03:48,100 or a members only jacket and maybe some casual slacks. And then a lot of, a lot of standing 42 00:03:48,100 --> 00:03:52,640 there looking bored, holding your hands behind your back. I think, I think that's a look that 43 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:54,120 maybe I should look into. 44 00:03:54,460 --> 00:03:56,640 Some iron jeans. We can get you there at some point. 45 00:03:56,900 --> 00:03:58,060 Oh yeah. Some rain. 46 00:03:58,220 --> 00:04:02,260 That's good. No, that was a good pull there. It was only our chemistry has never been better. 47 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:08,560 That's right. That's right. Well, uh, but before, before we get back to, uh, to, to Mike 48 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,940 and feel free to join the news, there's just a few items. I think news 49 00:04:11,940 --> 00:04:17,840 wise to go over, uh, like the, the OpenStack summit was in Sydney, uh, last week. Now, 50 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,860 for some reason, I didn't figure out some reason I should be there. So I could go back 51 00:04:20,860 --> 00:04:25,800 to Sydney. That's terrible. I need to write that as a, uh, are we doing annual performance 52 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,900 plans yet, Richard? I need to put that in there. 53 00:04:28,900 --> 00:04:29,300 They have to. 54 00:04:29,500 --> 00:04:29,740 Yeah. 55 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:30,900 Make sure we get this on your record. 56 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,020 But, but I think, uh, I think one of the more interesting things, I mean, there was, 57 00:04:34,020 --> 00:04:39,220 there was some, uh, some messaging and positioning of, uh, you know, the, the, the continued 58 00:04:39,220 --> 00:04:44,800 spread of, of OpenStack in Asia and particularly China and based on their, their community survey 59 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:49,880 and, uh, something about people using multi-cloud or hybrid cloud as they were, they were calling 60 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:54,040 it. And I think there was some mention of, of, uh, edge, which I still haven't really figured 61 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:59,020 out what that means, but it sounds cool. Um, but I think more interestingly there, uh, as 62 00:04:59,020 --> 00:05:02,700 they often do, they put out their community survey, which kind of confirmed a lot of these 63 00:05:02,700 --> 00:05:07,680 things. And, uh, another thing that was in the community survey they had was they, uh, 64 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:12,700 they asked people what, I forget what they call it, but application infrastructure, uh, 65 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:17,440 sort of, uh, things that they put on top of OpenStack. And I think, uh, I think Kubernetes 66 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:22,200 was the top one that people were installing on top of it. And cloud foundry was in there 67 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:26,460 with a few other ones, but I, I, I'll have to look back at the previous surveys, but I don't 68 00:05:26,460 --> 00:05:30,020 remember seeing that a couple of years ago when I would, uh, look at this stuff. 69 00:05:30,020 --> 00:05:36,060 So you get more of a sense of the, uh, sort of demographics of people with OpenStack installs 70 00:05:36,060 --> 00:05:42,700 types of company and, uh, geography, and then a little bit of, uh, what kind of container 71 00:05:42,700 --> 00:05:46,780 orchestration. I don't know what to call that layer that people are running. And then they 72 00:05:46,780 --> 00:05:49,940 didn't put this in the PDF, but if you go to the dashboard, you can look at the workloads 73 00:05:49,940 --> 00:05:54,340 that people are running, which if, if, uh, if you're not someone who remembers what members 74 00:05:54,340 --> 00:05:58,960 only jackets are, workloads means what you use it for the type of software you run on it. 75 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:03,000 And it's interesting. I always hate this one category that people have, they call it, uh, 76 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:08,900 infrastructure services, which sort of begs the question for what? So that's kind of a 77 00:06:08,900 --> 00:06:13,980 bummer of a category. But then also I think there was like 30% or so that was for like, basically, 78 00:06:13,980 --> 00:06:19,780 uh, your, your, uh, software development and QA kind of like you're working on the project. 79 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:25,560 Uh, what would you call it? Uh, staging stuff, which is also another weird category because 80 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:30,740 again, it begs the question of for what, uh, but whatever, it's fun to go look at that dashboard 81 00:06:30,740 --> 00:06:33,800 and kind of poke around what, what people are running on these things. 82 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:40,180 Yeah, very much. Yeah. Some other OpenStack news. I saw this morning that, uh, HP and Rackspace 83 00:06:40,180 --> 00:06:44,080 are doing a pay as you go OpenStack. And so it's interesting resurgence for people who are, 84 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:49,760 again, again, you mentioned that survey shows multi-cloud is alive and well, this idea of a 85 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:54,300 true pay as you go, not a long-term commit is interesting. So yeah, I guess don't, you know, 86 00:06:54,300 --> 00:06:57,960 don't write it off yet. It actually some interesting use cases and people are putting some good things 87 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:02,000 on top of that. Cloud Foundry, Kubernetes, a number of things. And hey, if we can make 88 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,880 it more interesting by not just focusing on infrastructure, maybe OpenStack, it's more 89 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:10,740 interesting again. Hmm. And then, and then, and then somewhat related, there's a, uh, you know, 90 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:16,380 I don't know if they actually run OpenStack in this, but there was a long, uh, sort of, uh, the kind 91 00:07:16,380 --> 00:07:20,820 of, the kind of, uh, since I don't actually like talking to people like coverage, I love doing where 92 00:07:20,820 --> 00:07:24,900 you just go read the internet and write a bunch of stuff instead of talking with people, but over at, uh, 93 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:31,200 it's mostly like an ERP sort of news site called Diginomica, but I think I forget what they call it. 94 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:36,300 But, uh, there's an interesting writeup of how SAP is using Cloud Foundry and Kubernetes and how it's 95 00:07:36,300 --> 00:07:40,900 kind of being threaded through their, their new things, which I think I've, I've been curious as 96 00:07:40,900 --> 00:07:46,640 a subtopic about the idea of for all of these cloud native platforms, what's the, uh, I don't know what 97 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:52,340 people call it nowadays, but, uh, whether it's off the shelf or COTS or ISVs, what kind of like 98 00:07:52,340 --> 00:07:57,360 off the shelf stuff people are writing to that to be installed as images. So it's a pretty lengthy 99 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:03,120 piece kind of well, uh, cited if you will, uh, which is to say it goes to lots of sources, 100 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:07,500 not that it's good at looking at things. Uh, and, uh, it's a nice overview of what, what 101 00:08:07,500 --> 00:08:11,360 big old SAP is doing there. And then also there was a little, there was a little mention. I forget 102 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:15,580 maybe this came out through quarterly calls or I don't know why this became a story, but 103 00:08:15,580 --> 00:08:20,580 there was a mention of like Kroger and other people, as you might expect, not being too cool 104 00:08:20,580 --> 00:08:26,480 with running their stuff on AWS. And so showing, showing kind of the trend of retailers and, and 105 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:31,940 grocers, which I guess are a type of retailer, uh, definitely being interested again in the 106 00:08:31,940 --> 00:08:37,560 multi-cloud thing, which is to say not only on Amazon, I guess, and how they're, uh, looking 107 00:08:37,560 --> 00:08:38,340 forward to that. 108 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:43,340 Mm-hmm. It was an interesting story. I mean, Kroger will be talking at, at SpringOne coming 109 00:08:43,340 --> 00:08:49,340 up to plug that about some of how they do kind of cross cloud CICD and use spring and other 110 00:08:49,340 --> 00:08:53,160 abstractions that help with that. But, you know, I'm sure Amazon's not losing sleep over, 111 00:08:53,260 --> 00:08:57,240 but at some point you do have to think about how do you kind of do this frenemies model 112 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:01,440 where you don't feel like this, you know, my, my key sourcing providers about to compete 113 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,400 with me. It's, it's a tricky, uh, it's a tricky world with them right now, but that's 114 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:09,700 where multi-cloud abstractions are awesome because your risk is a little less if you need to move 115 00:09:09,700 --> 00:09:10,240 somewhere else. 116 00:09:10,740 --> 00:09:14,560 Yeah. I forget if we mentioned this in a previous thing, but I remember reading some revenue 117 00:09:14,560 --> 00:09:18,500 breakdown for, uh, for Amazon as a whole. And it was something like, 118 00:09:18,500 --> 00:09:24,220 like 30% of retail revenue was basically them being a, uh, I think as Gartner would call 119 00:09:24,220 --> 00:09:29,840 it a BPAS, a business processing, like they, they do all the logistics and stuff for other 120 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:34,180 retailers or something like that. I guess that's like the marketplace you go to, but it does 121 00:09:34,180 --> 00:09:38,920 sort of raise the interesting thing of, uh, what if they're really good at like your omni 122 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,860 channel stuff, but they're also your competitor, but then they'll sell you those capabilities. 123 00:09:42,860 --> 00:09:46,620 It's kind of like all the hand wringing people do in the media about Facebook where they're 124 00:09:46,620 --> 00:09:50,980 just like this innocent looking platform. And then they sort of just, you know, use you 125 00:09:50,980 --> 00:09:56,960 as blood transfusion for their business essentially, which I guess lets you live on satellites or 126 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:02,900 something. So not related to satellites, but also, uh, there was a post that it's the 15 year 127 00:10:02,900 --> 00:10:07,180 anniversary of Red Monk, the little industry analyst firm. Uh, you know, I used to work there, 128 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:11,440 which was thrilling, but it is a good, uh, a good overview and it was, it's fun to think 129 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:15,740 about all the stuff that they've been involved in. Uh, you know, I mean, I think, I think 130 00:10:15,740 --> 00:10:19,360 the hallmark of what they, the hallmark, the main thing they started off with is, you know, 131 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:24,240 having blogs way back when is where they published their analysis and then they covered open source 132 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:31,400 and developers and cloud and all the kind of like, uh, commercialized rainbow and sandal kind 133 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:35,280 of stuff. And, uh, you know, I think pretty, and nowadays they, they do all sorts. 134 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:39,720 They, they, so I think one of the things they're more popular for is their programming index. 135 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:44,100 And then of course, ongoing coverage of, uh, what's going on in the infrastructure area, 136 00:10:44,100 --> 00:10:47,600 but yeah, they've been around for a long time. I guess it won't be that long since they'll 137 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:49,600 be, uh, they'll be 20 years old or so. 138 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,440 Yeah, definitely unique. It's easier for them to stand out in industry of which, you know, 139 00:10:54,700 --> 00:10:58,700 you and I and others talk to a lot of industry analysts as part of our day jobs. And I know 140 00:10:58,700 --> 00:11:02,500 I enjoy talking to all of them. They're all good conversations, but the Red Monk ones just come 141 00:11:02,500 --> 00:11:06,280 from a different place as I think they're a little more in the trenches with some folks 142 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:11,720 than, than others. And it's really good candidate advice. And honestly, if you're a large software 143 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:16,280 vendor today, who's not talking to them, I think you're at a disadvantage. So it's funny how you're 144 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:21,100 able to grow up into that in these 15 years. And we're glad to have, uh, stolen Coté. 145 00:11:22,540 --> 00:11:25,660 That's right. In a roundabout kind of way with a roundabout way. 146 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:29,760 That's right. So, and then I just wanted to highlight one thing, just some research that, 147 00:11:29,900 --> 00:11:34,060 uh, that I've been doing, you know, I like to, uh, if you see me talk ever before I talk about this, 148 00:11:34,060 --> 00:11:40,260 uh, this IRS case where, uh, the IRS applied a bunch of like agile and cloud native, you think, 149 00:11:40,260 --> 00:11:45,820 to, uh, help people pay their back taxes. And I was coming, I came across a whole bunch of, 150 00:11:45,820 --> 00:11:51,540 uh, publicly written up sources about how the, uh, the air force had transformed this tanker 151 00:11:51,540 --> 00:11:56,500 refueling process. It's like a literal digital transformation where they had this analog process 152 00:11:56,500 --> 00:12:02,920 of a whiteboard. And, uh, and then they decided that was a bad idea. And instead they, uh, I guess 153 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:07,560 they worked with pivotal actually. And, and through, there's this little outfit in the, uh, the 154 00:12:07,560 --> 00:12:13,220 department of defense called DIUX, which is all about, Hey, procurement's pretty awful around here. 155 00:12:13,540 --> 00:12:18,680 We should do it differently. And so they, they worked with them to, uh, digitize it fully and, 156 00:12:18,780 --> 00:12:24,580 uh, basically have a application that does it for them. And so there's, there's been, uh, someone 157 00:12:24,580 --> 00:12:29,240 must've done a PR campaign cause there's about three or four write-ups of it out there, mostly 158 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:37,320 in the, I don't know, military trade press, if that's a thing, but there, there's a few other 159 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:42,720 write-ups. And if you're really into it, there's a video of the, uh, I forget what it's called. 160 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:47,520 The like defense innovation board. And it's like this two hour video that if you scrub 161 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:51,520 through it, you can see them presenting, uh, about this process, but it's a good example 162 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:56,340 of a, uh, before and after of, you know, for example, a lot of what's quoted in there 163 00:12:56,340 --> 00:13:01,020 is that normally if they want, had a, had a project, a software project, and they had an 164 00:13:01,020 --> 00:13:04,920 idea for it and maybe not one feature, but they wanted to do something like this. 165 00:13:04,980 --> 00:13:09,780 It would normally take like four years or so all in to, uh, have the idea and deliver 166 00:13:09,780 --> 00:13:15,540 it, but because they, they, uh, were agile basically and did things as you would hope 167 00:13:15,540 --> 00:13:20,220 people would do things in software. Uh, it only took them about 120 days or so to do it, 168 00:13:20,220 --> 00:13:25,000 which is a huge, uh, if you follow government IT at all, it's a huge speed up for doing things. 169 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:29,260 And then of course, you know, you don't have to update a whiteboard to figure out how to refuel, 170 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:34,940 you refuel all these jets flying around, which is probably quite astonishing, but I'll, I'll, 171 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,940 I, there's some links in the, in the show notes to those write-ups, which I think, uh, I don't 172 00:13:38,940 --> 00:13:44,000 know. It's, it's a fun case to look at. It's a lot better than, uh, the usual sort of, I don't 173 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:48,000 know, like, uh, you know, talking to a stick to order more, uh, fabric softener stuff. 174 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:53,100 That's right. And if you really liked the story, uh, Lieutenant Colonel Enrique Adi, 175 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:58,420 who leads up that group is going to be speaking at SpringOne. So he'll be on stage giving a short 176 00:13:58,420 --> 00:14:01,060 version of this, this kind of summary and the business impact. 177 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:05,360 Yeah. He's the guy in that lengthy video. Uh, if, if you want to go see that he's, he's, 178 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,540 he's a good presenter. As someone jokes, he'll have to remember when he's a three-star general 179 00:14:09,540 --> 00:14:14,200 that it was all about this little tanker project, which I, I guess that's an encouraging 180 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:18,520 compliment to give someone. Three-star seems a lot higher than Lieutenant Colonel, 181 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:24,840 as I recall. So, uh, so let's bring our guests back. Why don't you, why don't you tell us what 182 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:32,820 you do around here? Yeah. Um, so this is Mike, as mentioned earlier, I run our education and 183 00:14:32,820 --> 00:14:40,580 enablement group and that includes three teams. So one of them, uh, pivotal training, another, 184 00:14:40,820 --> 00:14:46,680 the platform acceleration lab, and then the third developer enablement. So pivotal training, 185 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:51,900 you could think of as a bit of, uh, traditional enterprise training, a bit more of the one-to-one 186 00:14:51,900 --> 00:15:00,300 pairing with our products and courses, the PAL or our platform acceleration lab focuses a bit more 187 00:15:00,300 --> 00:15:06,640 on how we work and ensure just naturally the technologies we work on. And dev enablement kind 188 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:12,920 of recent to the, the portfolio, if you will, focuses on helping customers stand up their own 189 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:19,540 cloud native center of excellence. So they could move forward without, uh, my team being attached at 190 00:15:19,540 --> 00:15:20,680 the hip forever and ever. 191 00:15:21,380 --> 00:15:28,080 Mm. So, I mean, to that last one, as you think about the way you work and the kind of the architectural 192 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:32,420 aspects of, of some of the development back when you and I first kind of hung out a few months ago, 193 00:15:32,420 --> 00:15:36,580 and I think it's easy. Sometimes pivotal talks about the cultural change. We talk about the 194 00:15:36,580 --> 00:15:41,820 technology change and you were really adamant that you can't lose that kind of third leg of the 195 00:15:41,820 --> 00:15:47,380 stool, which is the architecture and thinking about, you know, it's not just about having a good way of 196 00:15:47,380 --> 00:15:52,200 working and then dropping things onto a cool new platform. You have to rethink how kind of what 197 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:56,340 you're building and how you structure it. So do you feel like, I mean, which of those things you just 198 00:15:56,340 --> 00:16:00,660 mentioned, those kind of three programs really focuses on the architecture and, you know, what, 199 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:02,480 what kind of things are we helping people figure out? 200 00:16:03,340 --> 00:16:07,600 Yeah, definitely the PAL, you know, jumps to mind. There's a bit of dev enablement as well. 201 00:16:08,420 --> 00:16:12,120 Um, maybe it helps to talk a little bit about the PAL or go a little bit deeper. 202 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:16,240 Yeah, please tell us about, uh, kind of where that came from and what it really is. 203 00:16:16,860 --> 00:16:22,620 Yeah. So I think it helps to talk a little bit about maybe pivotal history where, you know, 204 00:16:22,620 --> 00:16:30,180 kind of being an XP shop, um, you know, naturally we would, we would pair with customers and, 205 00:16:30,180 --> 00:16:36,040 you know, for a long time that worked out really well, um, with the scale though, and getting folks to 206 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:41,920 kind of, uh, be a bit more cloud native, you know, we bumped into things with partners, you know, 207 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:47,620 how do we teach both partners and, you know, customers at the same time? So the PAL was originally 208 00:16:47,620 --> 00:16:54,040 created four partners, got, got by the name of Nick KU and alliances, you know, said something 209 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:58,720 like, Hey, we need a solution here. You know, we have a ton of folks, you know, working with 210 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:04,260 our customers these days, and we need to get them ramped on all things cloud native. So that 211 00:17:04,260 --> 00:17:09,360 became kind of, you know, first conversation around, Hey, let's, let's kick off this thing, 212 00:17:09,360 --> 00:17:16,660 you know, IE platform acceleration lab to really train partners on all things cloud native and a bit 213 00:17:16,660 --> 00:17:23,980 of the success of the PAL moved to customers, uh, now as well. So for example, I'm in St. Louis today, 214 00:17:23,980 --> 00:17:30,060 uh, teaching a new cohort, uh, the first week of the PAL, which is what we call cloud native developer. 215 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:35,600 So what, I mean, so that, that's great. What are we teaching though? I mean, what are we, 216 00:17:35,740 --> 00:17:41,920 why would an SI who's been in business for 50, 80 years come to a four year old company? Obviously 217 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,940 there's a history we have beyond that, but why would you be coming to this company like us saying, 218 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:52,340 teach us to be more relevant? Yeah. So I think it's a few things. Um, there's a bit of the, 219 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:59,120 how we work. So patterns practices, you know, how we tackle things like replatforming existing apps 220 00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:05,460 or moving them onto pivotal cloud foundry as well as then modernizing applications. So you could think 221 00:18:05,460 --> 00:18:10,660 of replatforming, you know, Hey, let's get apps to run on pivotal cloud foundry and then modernization. 222 00:18:10,660 --> 00:18:16,680 Let's get them to run well on pivotal cloud foundry. The first week of the PAL, you know, 223 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:21,940 backpedaling a bit, we actually paint a bit of a reference architecture. We introduce things like, 224 00:18:21,940 --> 00:18:27,060 you know, cloud foundry for the first time, potentially spring boot, spring cloud services, 225 00:18:27,060 --> 00:18:34,080 you know, have discussions around architecture, microservices, you know, when to make that jump from 226 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:39,820 kind of a well-factored monolith to, you know, a full-on distributed system. I think just the, 227 00:18:39,980 --> 00:18:46,460 you know, platform as a service, you know, as a whole, there's just a whole new way of thinking about 228 00:18:46,460 --> 00:18:51,580 apps and the apps in prod. And the PAL is really the first introduction for folks to that. 229 00:18:54,180 --> 00:18:58,540 What do you, I mean, when you think about that though, and some of those architectural changes, 230 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:02,880 what are those things that you've discovered you kind of bump into the most, especially as you're 231 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,960 talking to consultants who've maybe been building custom apps for years or focused on just hooking 232 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:12,320 together existing commercial apps? What are some of those big hurdles that someone has to get past 233 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:17,740 when they have this app mindset and this custom dev mindset, distributed systems sort of concept that 234 00:19:17,740 --> 00:19:18,640 you preach here? 235 00:19:19,660 --> 00:19:24,860 Yeah, I think the first is just knowing when to make the jump, knowing when to, you know, 236 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:30,600 decompose that monolith into a microservices architecture. I think there's a bit of, 237 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:37,100 you know, being able to look at a bounded context or a domain and say, yes, that is, 238 00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:41,740 you know, its own separate component, separate service that we need to deploy 239 00:19:41,740 --> 00:19:45,780 and potentially scale differently than the rest of the overall system. 240 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:53,260 Interesting. Yeah. I mean, are people coming at you with that with monoliths typically? I mean, 241 00:19:53,300 --> 00:19:57,500 is that how most people are starting with you or people doing classic SOA sort of concepts and 242 00:19:57,500 --> 00:20:02,520 you're rethinking that? How do you help someone think about tackling their existing architecture 243 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,120 and actually decomposing it? What are those steps you're helping them walk through? 244 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:11,900 Yeah, there's a couple of ways. I guess most folks, you know, start with, you know, 245 00:20:11,940 --> 00:20:17,960 hey, I have this big app, you know, what do I do? I think I talk about maybe outside in as well 246 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:24,280 as an inside out approach to that decomposition. So outside in, you could think of as more, 247 00:20:24,460 --> 00:20:31,900 you know, stepping in front of an API, maybe internal to the system and then creating a net new service, 248 00:20:32,540 --> 00:20:36,940 you know, so that might be a message queue that you step in front of or a database connection and say, 249 00:20:36,940 --> 00:20:41,680 hey, we're going to, you know, not use the existing in favor of something new. 250 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:47,360 And that turns into a bit of, let's call it for the moment, greenfield development or adding new 251 00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:53,640 services. There's also maybe the inside out approach where, you know, that one you could think of more 252 00:20:53,640 --> 00:21:00,180 heavy refactoring. So, hey, let's take that code base that may have been broken out into model view 253 00:21:00,180 --> 00:21:06,000 controller directories and actually start looking at, you know, where the seams are in terms of those 254 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:12,100 bounded contexts so that you'd be this language. And so the outside in approach, you know, handful of 255 00:21:12,100 --> 00:21:17,060 techniques that we teach there. I think the PAL is a little bit heavy, though, on the inside out, 256 00:21:17,140 --> 00:21:23,320 really teaching folks, you know, how to refactor, how to move code around. You know, we heavily use 257 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:29,100 Gradle, you know, to start breaking out those components. And then they eventually make their way 258 00:21:29,100 --> 00:21:33,960 into their own Git repo where their lifecycle, you know, becomes their own lifecycle as opposed to 259 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:35,200 attached to that monolith. 260 00:21:36,300 --> 00:21:43,260 And then do you like I always come across a lot of methodologies for like modernizing and they always 261 00:21:43,260 --> 00:21:50,500 have some cutesy little name to them, of course. But like, I mean, is there like like so so you sit 262 00:21:50,500 --> 00:21:56,000 down there with the people, the people and and they're like, so we got like 500 applications. 263 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:01,240 And, you know, if you if you can modernize them this week, that would be great. But we probably also 264 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:06,960 live in reality. So let's select some to work on. So how do you like go through selecting ones to 265 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:11,380 target and work on? Like what kind of attributes are you looking for that are good or bad that would 266 00:22:11,380 --> 00:22:17,560 make it a good candidate to, I don't know, tell people how they would modernize it, find the seams as 267 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:24,680 it were. Yeah, I think it's important to maybe just break apart the or talk about replatforming and 268 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:30,940 modernization as two separate things, meaning that the replatforming, you know, we're targeting, 269 00:22:30,940 --> 00:22:36,960 you know, those 10 apps that we could quickly get deployed onto Cloud Foundry, Pivotal Cloud Foundry. 270 00:22:37,500 --> 00:22:41,900 And, you know, you could imagine something along the lines of, you know, simple app that has a 271 00:22:41,900 --> 00:22:48,900 database, that database connection, they're getting from JNDI. And now they need to get that connection 272 00:22:48,900 --> 00:22:53,800 from the environment. So there's a bit of just simply, hey, let's get it deployed. Let's watch 273 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:59,320 it break. Let's write a test that ensures the page gets rendered based on some data within the database. 274 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:04,840 And then let's get that test green by hooking in, you know, the database via the environment. 275 00:23:05,340 --> 00:23:10,880 So replatforming, think, you know, a bit of the push approach, you know, so let's push a lot of apps 276 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:19,400 onto PCF, see where they break, and then get them running. The modernization bit, you could think of 277 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:25,020 as more of maybe the pull approach, that earlier example I described, where we may pull out, you 278 00:23:25,020 --> 00:23:31,100 know, a net new service in favor of kind of the overall, you know, or a path towards that overall 279 00:23:31,100 --> 00:23:37,980 decomposition. Techniques, you know, think of a lot of the apps that we're looking at are maybe 280 00:23:37,980 --> 00:23:44,700 traditional EE apps that maybe if you think of the 12 factors is a good way to think about 281 00:23:44,700 --> 00:23:51,920 replatforming. So a lot of the things that 12 factor apps do, you know, kind of address some of 282 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:59,620 maybe the bad behaviors that have been, you know, kind of known within the EE space. So anything like 283 00:23:59,620 --> 00:24:05,920 writing to disk or, you know, not preferring the environment. So really replatforming, you think of 284 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:13,020 getting your app healthy in terms of those 12 factors. But then sure, modernization, you know, 285 00:24:13,220 --> 00:24:18,480 bit more heavy lifting there, you know, think significant code changes, you know, we're breaking 286 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:23,980 apart repackaging, you know, versus very little code changes on the replatforming side. Does that make 287 00:24:23,980 --> 00:24:29,480 sense? Does that help? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And do you find there's like a, like, like a repeatable 288 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:34,380 process you go through to do those that selecting? Or is it just kind of like you're saying, it's 289 00:24:35,020 --> 00:24:44,140 let's find the technical attributes that fit well for this, and then we'll work on those. Or is there 290 00:24:44,140 --> 00:24:49,100 other inputs that go into deciding what what would be good to look at in both those situations? 291 00:24:49,100 --> 00:24:55,700 Yeah, I think when you're looking at the larger portfolio, I guess, from my perspective, there's a 292 00:24:55,700 --> 00:25:01,660 bit of, you know, hey, let's take some of the easy ones that we know will move over, you know, 293 00:25:01,660 --> 00:25:06,500 really just to start getting feedback, you know, putting together these kind of cookbooks of best 294 00:25:06,500 --> 00:25:11,620 practices. You know, when you tackle the example, I mentioned, you know, hey, we need to get the data 295 00:25:11,620 --> 00:25:17,520 source via the environment, versus JNDI, you know, we'll document that, and then leave that cookbook 296 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:24,600 behind for other developers to, you know, be able to follow same, you know, patterns practices without 297 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:29,780 kind of rediscovering, reinventing the wheel each time. But I guess from my perspective, there's a bit 298 00:25:29,780 --> 00:25:34,460 of, you know, take some of the easy ones, even the easy ones are going to give you a lot of feedback 299 00:25:34,460 --> 00:25:39,440 in what, you know, some of the more complex applications look like in terms of re-platforming. 300 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:45,440 And more of the complex apps naturally become, you know, candidates for modernization, they just move 301 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:50,240 through that re-platforming step a little bit faster than most. 302 00:25:50,980 --> 00:25:55,640 So when, as you were mentioning, you know, a lot of this is, I don't know, you could call it training, 303 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:57,900 education, evolving. 304 00:25:58,200 --> 00:25:58,320 Yep. 305 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,620 And I imagine, I imagine you're in a situation where you're kind of like, you have a room full 306 00:26:02,620 --> 00:26:07,180 of people who are learning to do things in a new way. And like, I don't know, how do they usually 307 00:26:07,180 --> 00:26:12,160 receive it? Are they, are they like into doing things in a new way? Or are they like grumpy? Or 308 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:16,700 like, what, how do people usually react to this stuff? What are the two or three types of reactions 309 00:26:16,700 --> 00:26:17,620 they have ongoing? 310 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:25,240 I think most folks are genuinely excited. There's a bit of, you know, some of the Pivotal Labs 311 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:30,820 practices that we'll bring into the PAL. So we get folks pairing early on, we get that conversation 312 00:26:30,820 --> 00:26:37,760 going. You know, most folks, you know, after the first few labs, look at this as a bit of a breath 313 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:42,560 of fresh air, you know, a bit of thank you. Thank you, Pivotal for, you know, putting together 314 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:48,060 Cloud Foundry, as well as, you know, Spring, Spring Boot, you know, supporting that community 315 00:26:48,060 --> 00:26:54,100 as well. I think folks walk away with just a, you know, whole new understanding of, you know, 316 00:26:54,100 --> 00:26:56,980 how to build distributed apps at scale. 317 00:26:57,980 --> 00:27:04,780 And what's, what's your sense for like the, the existing ongoing education that most organizations 318 00:27:04,780 --> 00:27:10,700 have, like, and, and this is a bit of a loaded question. Like, my sense is that most organizations 319 00:27:10,700 --> 00:27:16,140 don't spend a lot of time training their staff and educating them. But I don't know, maybe I'm 320 00:27:16,140 --> 00:27:20,620 wrong. Like, what are you encountering out there as far as what the ongoing education is that people 321 00:27:20,620 --> 00:27:21,000 are getting? 322 00:27:22,580 --> 00:27:28,400 Yeah, it's, you know, there's not a lot. I think even with, you know, the first week of the PAL, 323 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,080 we get a lot of pushback on, you know, hey, four or five days, that's a big time commitment. 324 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:39,420 I think the, the shift right now, though, in the industry is pretty big. I think, you know, 325 00:27:39,460 --> 00:27:44,660 students, once they're in the class, it's, oh my gosh, you know, I've not only, you know, this week, 326 00:27:44,740 --> 00:27:49,300 but I've, you know, another three months to dig in after, you know, I leave the class, whether it's 327 00:27:49,300 --> 00:27:54,280 the first week or the full three-week program. I think folks are starting to realize, you know, 328 00:27:54,300 --> 00:28:01,960 our customers, a lot more are signing up for, you know, full PAL cohorts, whether that's in a pivotal 329 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:06,840 location or one of their locations and, you know, are starting to acknowledge, yeah, hey, 330 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:12,960 this is different. It's not just, you know, another library that we're using. Cloud Foundry is not 331 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:18,800 just, you know, another piece of middleware. This is a big change and we need to get folks immersed. 332 00:28:19,260 --> 00:28:22,780 So one of the things I've been struggling with recently, or I don't know, maybe over the last 333 00:28:22,780 --> 00:28:26,380 few years when I go out and, you know, try to give people the good news, as it were, 334 00:28:26,780 --> 00:28:32,300 is like, I was just talking with someone about this last week, that like, it's almost unbelievable, 335 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:38,620 right? And, and, and it's almost the sort of improvement that you would have. And, you know, 336 00:28:38,620 --> 00:28:43,340 we have these, these fun little t-shirts that are like, you know, eat dinner at home instead of at 337 00:28:43,340 --> 00:28:48,160 your desk and, and all sorts of like life improvements and stuff like that. And so I wonder, 338 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:53,720 like, other than actually walking people through doing things in, in a newer way, right? Like, 339 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:58,060 as, as I would sort of snarkily argue, like actually doing agile software development, 340 00:28:58,060 --> 00:29:03,440 like supported by all of this, you know, fully automated platform stuff, like, I, you know, 341 00:29:03,500 --> 00:29:09,160 experiencing something firsthand, that's a good way to like experience it tautologically. But like, 342 00:29:09,420 --> 00:29:13,380 have you figured out any other ways to kind of like tell people that like, this is going to be 343 00:29:13,380 --> 00:29:16,920 awesome, like before they try it, or do they just have to get hands on with it? 344 00:29:18,380 --> 00:29:25,880 Yeah, handful of, you know, articles out there. I've, I've put a few together myself. There is 345 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:31,720 something interesting about that hands on nature of some of the programs that we have where, you 346 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:37,220 know, folks show up and they write, they write software. We'll even screen folks before and, 347 00:29:37,460 --> 00:29:41,620 you know, make sure, hey, you know, you've programmed, you know, last week, last month. 348 00:29:42,420 --> 00:29:49,640 There's something about just diving in and bumping into, you know, the problems at hand. A great 349 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:55,460 example is, you know, think of the, the Equifax breach, you know, one of our labs is, you know, 350 00:29:55,460 --> 00:30:02,020 simply struts to spring, you know, where we take out, you know, existing struts controllers in place of, 351 00:30:02,020 --> 00:30:07,260 you know, spring MVC controllers, REST endpoints. So there's, there's something interesting about just 352 00:30:07,260 --> 00:30:12,000 getting hands on seeing it. And sure, there's naturally a couple of places that we've introduced, 353 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:17,720 you know, pitfalls for folks to fall into intentionally so they could dig themselves out 354 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:17,920 of it. 355 00:30:18,620 --> 00:30:22,500 Sounds like an exciting video game. We got to put some challenges in there every now and then. 356 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:24,340 Yeah. Yeah. 357 00:30:24,420 --> 00:30:28,940 I've, I've enjoyed watching you do this beyond just Java now though, right? Cause you're doing 358 00:30:28,940 --> 00:30:33,840 this for .NET developers as well. So this isn't just a, let's kind of get you well-versed in 359 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,000 Spring Boot, Spring Cloud. I believe you're, you're stretching this further. Am I right? 360 00:30:37,260 --> 00:30:45,580 Yeah. So, uh, it's interesting. It's almost the same app that we build, distributed app that 361 00:30:45,580 --> 00:30:51,840 we've built, um, except we're using .NET Core and then SteelToe, which you may know integrates 362 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:58,960 with Spring Cloud services on Cloud Foundry. Uh, Microsoft is, uh, interesting these days, 363 00:30:59,100 --> 00:31:05,280 you know, for me, um, it's always been a bit about, you know, how I write software and sure 364 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:10,600 that the, the, what normally, you know, kicks in at some point, the, the Java and .NET worlds 365 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:15,660 have really come together where, you know, day in the life, it feels like, um, you know, 366 00:31:15,660 --> 00:31:21,380 very similar, uh, in terms of programming. You know, I'm a fan of C sharp and we've written 367 00:31:21,380 --> 00:31:27,880 the first week of the pal and .NET. I think we have a trial beta course, the 15th, maybe 368 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:34,020 of, uh, or the 11th of December coming up where I think you're actually invited to, to come 369 00:31:34,020 --> 00:31:34,460 through it. 370 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:41,100 I think that's right. Yeah. So, I mean, that also fits into, and Coté touched on this with 371 00:31:41,100 --> 00:31:46,400 kind of, you know, how do you have some repeatable methodology? How do you have some even leave 372 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,800 behind? So tell me about the app continuum. When you first sent this to me, I think in a 373 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:54,920 Slack chat or something, what the heck is this? But you've put together this kind of exercise, 374 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,720 if you will, it even works for, for Java and .NET. Can you describe that a bit? We can put 375 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:00,740 a link in the show notes for people to check it out. 376 00:32:01,540 --> 00:32:07,600 Yeah. The intent is to describe kind of the evolution of a distributed system, you know, 377 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:13,320 the kind of starting at the point where, you know, Hey, it may be just fine to have, you 378 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:17,740 know, a monolith at first, especially if you don't see product market fit, you may not 379 00:32:17,740 --> 00:32:24,660 want to spend a lot of upfront, uh, time upfront on design or, you know, operational features. 380 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:30,920 Uh, so the continuum, you know, walks you through, you know, that first commit all the way through 381 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:36,900 kind of a well-factored monolith, if you will, down to, you know, microservices architecture 382 00:32:36,900 --> 00:32:42,660 with three microservices dependent on a fourth. You know, we talk about things like, you know, 383 00:32:42,660 --> 00:32:48,700 how to version your API, when to tease out databases, but it's really meant to give folks a kind of a 384 00:32:48,700 --> 00:32:53,720 hands-on, Hey, here's a code base of maybe what your code base would look like as you're building 385 00:32:54,920 --> 00:33:02,100 these days, especially if you want to be positioned for, uh, you know, evolving that system over time. 386 00:33:05,180 --> 00:33:10,640 Yeah, I like that. Good. One of the other things I wanted to ask you is, is you have a kind of a 387 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:15,140 front row seat in your work with, with Nick and our partner team, as well as our kind of education 388 00:33:15,140 --> 00:33:21,260 teams for how some of these companies now are trying to figure out how to actually kind of seed and scale 389 00:33:21,260 --> 00:33:26,320 their, their transformation, their learning, all that sort of thing. So how do you see companies 390 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:32,280 starting to try to actually do real education strategies? And Coté or either you or Mike mentioned, 391 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:37,780 there's not the same sort of investment in people sometimes nowadays is these big in-person training 392 00:33:37,780 --> 00:33:42,560 exercises we had 10, 20 years ago. But how do you see modern companies who are trying to make sure that 393 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:48,260 they actually stick your transformation, take these different sorts of options, right? Pal and, 394 00:33:48,260 --> 00:33:53,400 and pivotal labs and self-paced training and all these sorts of things. How does that come together for 395 00:33:53,400 --> 00:34:01,160 the, for the best companies? Yeah. And one thing we didn't dive into it, but there's the 396 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:08,820 dev enablement, uh, team that I'm, uh, putting together. And again, it's this kind of notion that, 397 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:15,060 anybody who's making that cloud native jump should have their own center of excellence, 398 00:34:15,060 --> 00:34:19,780 best practices. You kind of talk about things in maybe four different buckets, one being, 399 00:34:19,780 --> 00:34:25,200 you know, all things app architecture to the extent of maybe having, you know, their own reference 400 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:32,120 architecture that favors, you know, tools, sign on, you know, whatnot that they, uh, prefer, 401 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:36,560 you know, over just maybe the pivotal reference architecture. Another is just tool chain, 402 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:43,840 uh, you know, decisions between Gradle versus Maven, IntelliJ versus Eclipse. Uh, another might 403 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:51,900 be early spikes on new platform services that open up, uh, kind of doors for new apps or existing apps 404 00:34:51,900 --> 00:34:56,760 to get on the platform. And then that third, you could think of even the PAL content, you know, 405 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:02,920 our customers, you know, folks who are embracing cloud native to also teach, you know, portions of the 406 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:09,140 PAL or portions of, uh, pivotal training. And we call that more of our train the trainer model where to 407 00:35:09,140 --> 00:35:15,480 truly scale, to truly kind of continue, uh, you know, again, without us, you know, somewhat attached 408 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:20,620 at the hip pivotal training PAL team attached at the hip forever and ever, there's a bit of, you know, 409 00:35:20,620 --> 00:35:26,440 Hey, you should take on, you know, kind of this modern way of, uh, teaching folks, you know, 410 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:32,620 this kind of highly immersive, you know, hands-on instructor ratio, maybe, you know, more four to 411 00:35:32,620 --> 00:35:37,600 one instead of 10 to one. And instructors may be people from the field, you know, that are coming 412 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:43,660 in and, and teaching lessons learned, you know, really teaching their experiences. But I think 413 00:35:43,660 --> 00:35:49,960 that, uh, that team, we've seen a lot of our customers stand up that internal team, 414 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:55,580 whether it's, you know, uh, dev enablement center of excellence, kind of pick your, pick your term, 415 00:35:55,580 --> 00:36:01,180 but that's really, you know, how to accelerate and continue, you know, moving forward around that 416 00:36:01,180 --> 00:36:02,760 education enablement path. 417 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:09,920 That's awesome. So I have one more for you. So I think I was sitting in a, uh, some sort of executive 418 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:14,240 thing where you were there and I was amused by the fact that you were hacking away on code as well 419 00:36:14,240 --> 00:36:19,520 as a couple of other exact types that pivotal do, but you know, you still build stuff. You're not a, 420 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:23,840 uh, you don't do architectures and PowerPoint every day. So what are you having fun building right now? 421 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:29,120 What's getting you excited? You know, technology wise, what's, uh, what's in your toolbox right now? 422 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:35,920 Yeah. So mainly, you know, think Java programmer for years and years, uh, spent a little time writing 423 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:42,320 Ruby, little time writing go. I think for me, Kotlin, uh, I think I tweeted this maybe last year 424 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:49,200 or so that Kotlin plus Elm is going to be the stack of, uh, kind of 2017, maybe even 2018 now, 425 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:55,760 but I'll, I'll write a lot of Kotlin. There's just something nice about, um, you know, being a better 426 00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:01,440 Java, you know, so same SDK, same tool chain for the most part, it's really just less verbose. 427 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:06,960 Uh, so a lot of the tools, uh, apps that we write internally for the PAL pivotal training 428 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:12,880 dev enablement are mainly Kotlin and then Elm, you know, there's something nice about Elm as well, 429 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:18,080 being a Java developer. I think, you know, front end feels like every other year there's a new front 430 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:24,720 end technology. Uh, Elm has at least stuck for the past year and a half, maybe, uh, maybe two years 431 00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:31,920 now for, for my team. Awesome. You know, along those lines, the, the, the, this, this wasn't a planned 432 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:37,600 topic, but since you mentioned, uh, coding there, my, uh, my seven year old son, he's made like 30 433 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:43,680 different like pictures of things he wants to put in his video game. And, uh, I've been trying to tell 434 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:48,800 him, you know, you got to program a video game and, and like, do you have any good ideas of like, 435 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,720 if he actually wanted to make a game or more importantly, if I wanted to have him probably watch 436 00:37:52,720 --> 00:37:58,080 me fiddle around with it so that he could learn it. Like, uh, what's the state of the art in like 437 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:04,000 simple game programming? They still use logo, use a turtle or something. What have you encountered 438 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:13,440 that recently? Oh, you got me there. I, uh, I've stayed away from games a bit, but, uh, I've, uh, 439 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:20,720 pointed folks towards a couple of books on, uh, Python Java to get going. So think, you know, 10, 440 00:38:20,720 --> 00:38:26,640 11 year olds, uh, usually that fifth, sixth grade is when they first have, uh, you know, 441 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:30,960 kind of that afternoon programming course. Oh yeah. Um, well, you know, you're reminding me, 442 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:35,680 I have, I have an old book that's like, uh, teaching kids Python or something. I think it's 443 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:41,280 got a wizard on the cover. I should go find that. Maybe, maybe that'll be helpful. But yeah, I, I told 444 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:46,000 him, you know, he should just make all these images of things he wants in his game. And unlike most 445 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:50,480 things, he actually listened to me. And the other day he showed me like these 30 images. And then I 446 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:55,600 realized, oh crap, I got to follow up on this and figure out how to actually make a game. But I 447 00:38:55,600 --> 00:39:00,960 figure, you know, something like Kotlin's probably a little too advanced. And we had to run him through 448 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:05,920 object orientation first, try to figure that out. Probably, probably late teens when you want to do 449 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:11,680 that. I don't know. We'll see. Well, uh, more seriously. So, um, before we wrap up, so like, 450 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:16,160 do you, do you have sort of, do y'all have like a, uh, whether it's your own materials or others, 451 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:21,040 there's sort of like a, uh, speaking of late teens, like a, a homework reading list that you 452 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:25,520 recommend to people or kind of like the background assumptions that you would have, like you mentioned, 453 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:30,240 you know, bounded context and things like that before it. So I assume there's a few concepts like 454 00:39:30,240 --> 00:39:35,680 that, that while of course y'all would be happy to tell people about it, it might be helpful to know 455 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:42,000 about these things ahead of time. Yeah. Happy to share a few things. I think the app continuum 456 00:39:42,720 --> 00:39:48,160 website's a great starting point. You know, it's based on just the simple concept that, 457 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:53,680 you know, Hey, if you name things, well, organize your code base. Well, uh, you're, you're going to 458 00:39:53,680 --> 00:40:00,160 be in a position to evolve that code base over time. And, you know, also reducing those nasty circular 459 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:05,280 dependencies that tend to get into our code base. Um, but the continuum is a great starting point. 460 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:11,360 As mentioned, there's a kind of a companion code base that walks through each of the commits 461 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:17,600 and, uh, folks will get, yeah, get, get a handle on kind of what the pal looks like, what, uh, maybe 462 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:23,200 kind of offices within labs, whether it's Boulder, Denver, Chicago, it kind of our approach to 463 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:27,920 writing software over the past several years. Um, which is pretty fun. 464 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:33,280 Yeah, that does seem like a good start. Do you use that, uh, that paper app to make these little 465 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:33,920 diagrams? 466 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,240 I do the 53, I think. 467 00:40:38,240 --> 00:40:43,120 How long, how long do you think it took you to figure out how to do that? Like do it comfortably? 468 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:53,920 Oh, uh, I don't know. I'll actually use paper, uh, in front of customers. Um, I don't know. I, 469 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:58,880 you know, being an architect myself, there's a certain just, you know, gravitation to drawing 470 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:03,600 diagrams. I get a lot of people give me a hard time about, you know, standing in front of a 471 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:08,320 whiteboard too much. Nick Kay, who I mentioned, you know, kind of waits for the moment to say, 472 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,960 all right, all right, he's breaking out the pen and paper. 473 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:15,360 Yeah. I, I think, I think as, as they titled one of my register columns a while ago, like 474 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:20,720 you shall know us by a trail of diagrams, like definitely a big, big architect thing. But 475 00:41:20,720 --> 00:41:25,040 so you got like a big iPad for that. And like, how would you just show them on an iPad or project 476 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:32,560 it onto a screen or what, what do you do? Uh, both does really well for remote, uh, sessions too. 477 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:37,680 So yeah, I just project it's a, I don't know what 12 inch iPad sound, right? It's the one 478 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:46,240 with the pencil, obviously. Um, but, uh, yeah, whether it's, you know, remote in person, um, 479 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:53,200 or then, you know, drawing and putting it in the continuum, it's, uh, yeah, there's a nice touch to 480 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,080 it. It's a bit of, yeah, I drew that. 481 00:41:56,080 --> 00:42:01,520 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if I feel it's a little bit like the, uh, the last sort of, uh, cargo 482 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:06,480 culting thing, post-it notes. And I feel like this is fast becoming the next cargo culting thing 483 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:11,840 for, uh, for cloud native stuff, which is to say a genuinely useful tool and you see everyone using 484 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:16,560 it. And so it's a, it would be easy to get confused that you made your diagrams and you were done just 485 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:21,440 like with post-it notes, but it's, uh, it comes up over and over again, which, which is, which is 486 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:27,200 interesting. Hence my interest in like, is that, uh, is that hard to figure out? Cause it seems easy, 487 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:32,080 but you know, drawing stuff on screens is always a little funky, but your comments are 488 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:38,400 encouraging. So snapping, uh, you tend to draw, erase, erase quite a bit, um, until you get the 489 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:44,480 swing of things, but it's a much better, you know, than if you think of those big whiteboards that 490 00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:49,600 had those special markers where you could then print the whiteboard, you know, that, that was faster. 491 00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,960 So this is, yeah, nice evolution of the whiteboard. 492 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:57,040 Those, those were the good old days, especially when they had like a little ticker tape printout 493 00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:00,320 on the side. That was like a little printout. That stuff was awesome. 494 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:03,920 Yeah. That might've been late nineties. 495 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:09,360 Yeah. And then, and then, and then you could fax it to your developers afterwards, I guess, 496 00:43:10,240 --> 00:43:14,480 given the new diagrams for their small talk code or whatever people were doing back then. 497 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,400 Well, uh, thanks for being on. That was a good overview and a bit of a, uh, 498 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:23,680 you know, we got some hot tips on, uh, doing some programming for kids and how to do diagrams. 499 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:25,760 So some bonus material there for the listeners. 500 00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:27,600 Yes. 501 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,680 So if people wanted to, uh, so, so where, where is that app continuum thing? What's the, 502 00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:32,800 what's the URL for it? 503 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,080 Uh, it's just app continuum.io. 504 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,840 And then, uh, you got your Twitter thing at the bottom there in case people are interested 505 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,920 in, uh, decoding whatever that is in your header, some sort of map of guardrails, 506 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:45,680 which looks odd to go stare at that. 507 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:51,200 Oh, uh, it's the, uh, Maui. It's surf spots in Maui, I believe. 508 00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:53,120 Oh, very good. 509 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:59,640 It's a little map that the surf shop gives you, um, says go, go hit these spots. 510 00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:00,040 Yeah. 511 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:04,900 Uh, yeah. Surfing, uh, coding. Yeah. 512 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:09,040 Yeah. It looks like next time, next time you're with the surf shop, you should show them that paper app. 513 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:13,520 They can, uh, they could do a similar sort of thing there and help out with that. Well, 514 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:17,760 as always, this has been a Pivotal Conversations. If you want to get the most recent episodes 515 00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:23,360 as quickly as they're available, you can go to soundcloud.com slash Pivotal Conversations. Now, 516 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:27,760 of course you should really just subscribe to the podcast. Just go search for it, wherever you're 517 00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:32,480 doing that. You're probably already listening to it there. And, uh, also as, as Richard mentioned 518 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:37,440 several times, uh, in the first week of December, December 4th and 5th, we have a SpringOne 519 00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:42,000 platform and there's some associated little fun times around there. But if you want to come out 520 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:47,680 to, uh, San Francisco, uh, you, you can come there and Richard went over, I think you managed to put 521 00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:50,480 in like 15 different talks that are there, right, Richard? 522 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:52,080 Potentially. 523 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:52,960 Yeah, that's right. 524 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:54,240 Plug it where I can. 525 00:44:54,240 --> 00:44:57,920 And I've been, I've been talking with two other people who are presenting on some of, uh, 526 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:02,560 our favorite topics, or at least mine, sort of like how, how they scaled up all of this 527 00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,680 kind of change to their whole organization. And there's one in particular I'm, 528 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:11,200 I'm eager to see, which is the, uh, uh, the realities of talking with people in rooms 529 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:15,520 through PowerPoint to improve your software, to put it in a funny way and all of the little 530 00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:22,160 tactics and, uh, sort of, uh, what's, what's the, uh, Machiavellian real politic of cloud native. 531 00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:25,360 There you go. Let's string together a bunch of nonsense words, but there's a lot of good 532 00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:30,160 sessions there. Uh, and definitely if you go to SpringOne platform.io, you can use the code 533 00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:37,600 S1P200_COTE, that's my name, C-O-T-E and get $200 off registration, but you should definitely 534 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:42,160 check that out. And, uh, more or less every Thursday, we post the formal show notes. We'll 535 00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:47,600 put a link to things we mentioned over at, uh, pivotal.io/podcast. And with that, we'll see 536 00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:49,760 everyone next time. Bye-bye.