1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,020
So it's been like a month since we recorded, huh?

2
00:00:02,300 --> 00:00:03,040
Isn't that shocking?

3
00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:04,300
That is shocking.

4
00:00:04,560 --> 00:00:09,320
Do you think we're going to have to slowly build back up our listener base from zero to ten?

5
00:00:09,980 --> 00:00:11,420
We've got to earn the trust.

6
00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:12,740
Earn the trust.

7
00:00:13,380 --> 00:00:13,960
Earn the trust.

8
00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:21,120
Well, you know, traditionally, August is a month of doing nothing, which was 16 days ago.

9
00:00:21,500 --> 00:00:23,020
So, you know, I'm always late for everything.

10
00:00:23,140 --> 00:00:25,160
So I think I'm on track here, so to speak.

11
00:00:25,540 --> 00:00:33,940
But that said, so I was at DevOps Days Auckland or New Zealand or something a couple weeks ago now, which is great.

12
00:00:34,100 --> 00:00:35,780
You know, it's always fun to go out and see the people.

13
00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:37,960
But I noticed in New Zealand.

14
00:00:38,160 --> 00:00:40,060
I don't know if you noticed that you were recently in Europe, too.

15
00:00:40,060 --> 00:00:41,120
I don't know if you're like me.

16
00:00:41,420 --> 00:00:45,900
Whenever you travel pretty much anywhere, you like to go tour the grocery stores.

17
00:00:46,100 --> 00:00:49,600
I'm guessing you don't like that, but you should start going to grocery stores.

18
00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:50,960
It's fun to see what they're doing there.

19
00:00:51,620 --> 00:00:59,460
And it is a, what with the thrilling per diem we have, you can get yourself quite a meal if you shop at the grocery store.

20
00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:04,820
Or maybe if the CFO is listening, you can be very economical in feeding yourself on the road.

21
00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:13,640
I don't want to be like a 80s Walmart advocate of sharing rooms with people because I feel like we're adults and not in summer camp.

22
00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:16,000
But anyways, go to the grocery store.

23
00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:22,240
So I go, you know, go to the grocery store and they have like five or six different types of bacon in the grocery stores there.

24
00:01:22,300 --> 00:01:25,240
And they don't even call it, I mean, they don't even call it bacon.

25
00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:29,400
It's specifically like, maybe they do, but it's like the type of thing like center cut bacon.

26
00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:35,060
And of course, being New Zealand, Australian people, they put a Y at the end of the edge of everything.

27
00:01:35,060 --> 00:01:36,540
So they call it streaky bacon.

28
00:01:36,900 --> 00:01:38,120
That's the kind of bacon we have.

29
00:01:38,740 --> 00:01:39,060
Nice.

30
00:01:39,260 --> 00:01:46,120
But it is, I mean, it is, it is a, it's a different perspective on the world when you've got like five or six different types of bacon.

31
00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:53,040
And I have to admit, you know, when you go to an American grocery store, you basically select bacon on two vectors.

32
00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:57,780
Well, three vectors, let's say brand and price.

33
00:01:58,580 --> 00:02:01,960
And if you want extra honey and pepper on it, that's pretty much your selection.

34
00:02:02,020 --> 00:02:03,000
I thought you were going to go with thickness.

35
00:02:03,380 --> 00:02:03,600
All right.

36
00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:04,700
I guess there is thickness.

37
00:02:05,020 --> 00:02:06,080
Maybe, maybe there's four.

38
00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,460
I think, I think thickness might be a variation on price.

39
00:02:09,460 --> 00:02:14,000
I would argue cheap bacon is thin, expensive bacon is thick.

40
00:02:15,020 --> 00:02:23,100
And if, if you're, I guess maybe for all of our West Coast listeners out there, if you're all into like, you know, avoiding nitrates, that's another vector.

41
00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:25,740
I don't know what a nitrate is, but it sounds delicious.

42
00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:27,140
It does.

43
00:02:27,380 --> 00:02:32,280
Well, I would really like to see the coffee table book of Coté visits international grocery stores.

44
00:02:32,640 --> 00:02:37,400
Like that would be just, I'd plop down a pre-order right there.

45
00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:54,320
Well, you know, you know, my overarching retirement goal, the only way I work at places is so I can slowly amass knowledge and the capital or reputation to borrow capital to fund my ultimate project called How to Eat, which I envision as a multi-channel media empire, kind of like Oprah Winfrey.

46
00:02:55,180 --> 00:02:58,440
Where basically I, or maybe more like Anthony Bourdain.

47
00:02:58,440 --> 00:02:59,520
Is that how you say his word?

48
00:03:00,020 --> 00:03:05,360
Where, where basically I go to different cultures and, and I describe, you know, if the food is good or bad.

49
00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:06,060
I don't care about that.

50
00:03:06,100 --> 00:03:07,580
But the mechanisms of eating it.

51
00:03:07,660 --> 00:03:08,820
Have I ever told you about this?

52
00:03:09,140 --> 00:03:10,720
No, I feel like you need to say more.

53
00:03:10,860 --> 00:03:11,980
Well, let me, let me say a little more.

54
00:03:12,020 --> 00:03:19,080
Cause I was talking to someone, uh, uh, about this over there in New Zealand and, uh, and throughout the day he looked over at me.

55
00:03:19,140 --> 00:03:24,640
He was like, you should really do that project except in that delightful accent, but maybe I can get some support here.

56
00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:25,640
I'll start a Kickstarter.

57
00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:27,960
Is that still a thing or a pay trio?

58
00:03:28,620 --> 00:03:29,020
Yeah.

59
00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:29,620
Yeah.

60
00:03:29,620 --> 00:03:31,000
I'll start a Da Vinci or something.

61
00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:32,260
I guess it wouldn't be Da Vinci.

62
00:03:32,540 --> 00:03:33,760
I'll start a Medici.

63
00:03:34,300 --> 00:03:34,660
Anyways.

64
00:03:34,980 --> 00:03:40,620
Uh, the idea is every single culture, they have a slightly different way of eating various dishes.

65
00:03:40,620 --> 00:03:42,440
Like I'll give you a couple of examples.

66
00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:46,940
One, if, if you had never encountered a taco, right.

67
00:03:47,420 --> 00:03:51,860
And I put a taco in front of you, you would probably be like, what do I do with this?

68
00:03:52,140 --> 00:03:52,380
Right?

69
00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:53,460
Like, do I pick it up or not?

70
00:03:53,520 --> 00:04:02,920
Now to complicate it even more, if you go to some of the more, um, old school places here in, in Austin and the rest of Texas, they will bring you a taco.

71
00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,500
If you buy a con, get a combo plate, that would be a whole other thing.

72
00:04:05,540 --> 00:04:09,160
What's a combo plate when I, if I get something called a federale, what am I in for?

73
00:04:10,620 --> 00:04:15,960
But they'll bring you as a first coat, first, uh, first course, a crispy taco.

74
00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:18,820
And sometimes the taco is pre-deconstructed.

75
00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:23,780
So you'll get like the shell and the meat and the lettuce and the tomato and the cheese, like all on the side.

76
00:04:23,780 --> 00:04:25,820
And you can put it all together on your own.

77
00:04:25,820 --> 00:04:26,060
Right?

78
00:04:26,100 --> 00:04:27,140
So then you got to explain that.

79
00:04:27,220 --> 00:04:28,900
Now, what if you have a salsa bar?

80
00:04:28,980 --> 00:04:30,020
What are you gonna do with the salsa bar?

81
00:04:30,060 --> 00:04:32,700
Now, have you ever been to a salsa bar where they've got those little pickled carrots?

82
00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:33,780
I forget what those are called.

83
00:04:33,840 --> 00:04:34,620
What do you do with those?

84
00:04:34,980 --> 00:04:35,220
Anyways.

85
00:04:35,900 --> 00:04:39,580
So then another one, like, I don't know, you've probably been to Korean barbecue places.

86
00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:40,400
Sure.

87
00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:44,100
So you order your Korean food and then they bring you out like, uh, I don't know, 10 or

88
00:04:44,100 --> 00:04:45,840
20 of these little bowls with things in them.

89
00:04:46,340 --> 00:04:48,500
I have no idea what you're supposed to do with that.

90
00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:53,540
Like, is it like a chutney in India that I think is a compliment is a condiment or is it

91
00:04:53,540 --> 00:04:54,420
a thing on its own?

92
00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:54,900
Right?

93
00:04:54,940 --> 00:04:57,880
Like how do, how do, what's the, what's the, how do you operate all this stuff?

94
00:04:58,260 --> 00:05:04,020
And I've asked our Korean colleagues who I also saw one of them in New Zealand, like what

95
00:05:04,020 --> 00:05:07,240
you do with all those bowls and very indeterminate answer.

96
00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:09,400
So we, we got to get to the bottom of this.

97
00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:14,580
So all I'm saying is after the, as part of the, how to eat project, I think it makes sense.

98
00:05:14,740 --> 00:05:18,900
You'll go to the grocery stores sort of like, you know, when you're trying to fill your,

99
00:05:18,900 --> 00:05:24,600
uh, 20 to 25 minutes of minutes of content on a basic cable TV show and you need to have

100
00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:26,360
kind of like the sidebar discussions.

101
00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,720
Like while we were here, we also went to the grocery store, which is technically not part

102
00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:32,980
of the theme of this show, but we ran out of time.

103
00:05:33,140 --> 00:05:34,820
So we had to put some stuff in here.

104
00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:36,300
So we'll, we'll do that.

105
00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:37,780
That's a show.

106
00:05:37,980 --> 00:05:38,160
Yeah.

107
00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,560
Maybe I should do this in, uh, in, uh, what's it called?

108
00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:42,200
We chat.

109
00:05:42,460 --> 00:05:43,260
What do the kids do?

110
00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:43,680
Snapchat.

111
00:05:44,100 --> 00:05:44,460
Yeah.

112
00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:44,720
Yeah.

113
00:05:45,340 --> 00:05:47,440
Well, I'll, I'll round out my trip report.

114
00:05:47,580 --> 00:05:53,100
We also took my niece, my 16 year old niece and speaking, easing in to the exciting world

115
00:05:53,100 --> 00:05:53,980
of digital computers.

116
00:05:53,980 --> 00:05:54,840
She had a funny quote.

117
00:05:54,920 --> 00:06:00,560
We were asking her, uh, if she uses Facebook and you know, she's 16, she said, no, I've

118
00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:01,620
never really used Facebook.

119
00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:05,280
I feel like if I was in Facebook, I would just see pictures of my mom.

120
00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:07,660
So there you go.

121
00:06:08,340 --> 00:06:09,640
There's a lot of moms on there.

122
00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:11,060
It has crossed 2 billion users.

123
00:06:11,280 --> 00:06:11,960
A lot of moms.

124
00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:12,500
Yeah.

125
00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:12,860
Yeah.

126
00:06:12,860 --> 00:06:16,320
I don't know, but it was interesting that, uh, and we kept, we kept giving her, uh, the

127
00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,740
business about like, so are you going to take another picture that disappears in 30 seconds?

128
00:06:20,300 --> 00:06:22,300
So that's fun for us.

129
00:06:22,900 --> 00:06:28,100
Well, I think over the past month, there's been a, uh, bevy, which is a popular word in

130
00:06:28,100 --> 00:06:30,660
my young days, a bevy of news.

131
00:06:30,900 --> 00:06:33,520
And we of course won't summarize all of it here at all.

132
00:06:33,580 --> 00:06:36,220
I mean, you had, uh, you had a Oracle open world.

133
00:06:36,620 --> 00:06:40,920
There were some other conferences going on, all sorts of stuff, uh, that, that resulted

134
00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,140
in stuff, but we've selected a few things here.

135
00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:48,780
So first of all, setting some context, I saw that, um, Gartner came out with their, uh,

136
00:06:48,780 --> 00:06:51,600
is it application infrastructure middleware?

137
00:06:51,740 --> 00:06:56,120
I forget what aim stands for, but, uh, they came out with some market sizing for that.

138
00:06:56,180 --> 00:06:57,720
I have to admit, I haven't read it in detail.

139
00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:03,280
Like I usually do, but I think, I think sizing the market that pivotal and people who listen

140
00:07:03,280 --> 00:07:08,320
to this too, and people that do application development, uh, that we operate in historically

141
00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:12,420
is not difficult, but it's difficult to know what it is projected out to the future where

142
00:07:12,420 --> 00:07:14,860
you're like multi-cloud and cloud native.

143
00:07:14,860 --> 00:07:20,660
And you're figuring out if you want your, uh, JEE contain your JEE app platforms versus

144
00:07:20,660 --> 00:07:21,820
whatever other crazy stuff.

145
00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:26,300
So it's a little crazy now, but I think it's good to track that number to get a sense of

146
00:07:26,300 --> 00:07:26,700
the footprint.

147
00:07:26,700 --> 00:07:32,720
And their, their estimate, we'll, we'll just go with the 20 when 2016 was 25.5 billion.

148
00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:38,020
And in 2017, it increases up to 27.3 billion.

149
00:07:38,260 --> 00:07:40,680
I love the decimal places like, you know, this amount of precision.

150
00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:41,300
It's very exact.

151
00:07:41,460 --> 00:07:41,600
Yeah.

152
00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,780
Although I was thinking I should round this up and then I thought that would be equally

153
00:07:44,780 --> 00:07:45,160
worse.

154
00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:46,100
So what are you going to do?

155
00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:51,180
Uh, all the way to 2020, it's about, it goes up a 10 or so billion.

156
00:07:51,340 --> 00:07:55,840
Well, not a little less than that to 33.6 billion, which, you know, that's encouraging.

157
00:07:56,080 --> 00:08:00,120
It's good to know that the, uh, the way that I pay my rent is increasing in market size

158
00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,060
instead of, uh, instead of shrinking.

159
00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:03,140
Yeah.

160
00:08:03,140 --> 00:08:06,080
I need to read that as well to see what that all encompasses.

161
00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:08,320
Cause is that, is that good?

162
00:08:08,380 --> 00:08:09,760
Do we expect it to even be faster?

163
00:08:09,900 --> 00:08:11,240
Is that all encompassing?

164
00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,580
I mean, I don't think you, you or I, or I don't go by a week without some salesperson

165
00:08:14,580 --> 00:08:16,300
asking me for market sizing information.

166
00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:20,960
Everyone loves those sorts of numbers, I guess, to help customers even justify some of their

167
00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:22,160
purchases and things like that.

168
00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:27,220
Well, it is a, it has a few things that like, if I was doing some, um, strategy deck, I would

169
00:08:27,220 --> 00:08:27,900
subtract out.

170
00:08:27,900 --> 00:08:32,840
Like it has, uh, I think it might even have some business processing stuff and, and maybe

171
00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:37,140
some, some old school rad stuff, which anyways, knowing what to do with those would be weird,

172
00:08:37,140 --> 00:08:41,520
but yes, you would want to make a Mecco chart of the, uh, wouldn't a Mecco chart work?

173
00:08:41,580 --> 00:08:41,760
Whatever.

174
00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:46,080
You would want to make a chart breaking out the, uh, well, a multi-year Mecco chart.

175
00:08:46,180 --> 00:08:49,300
Those are, I don't know if you've ever seen those, those are great breaking out the different

176
00:08:49,300 --> 00:08:51,640
categories over the span of, of years covered.

177
00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,060
And that would give you, that would give you, that would be the best chart.

178
00:08:54,060 --> 00:08:57,640
Cause it would give you a good sense of the growth, the, the sub-segment growth and, uh,

179
00:08:57,640 --> 00:08:59,020
shrinkage as it were.

180
00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:00,200
Gotcha.

181
00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:02,620
I need to spend more time on the Gartner site than I already do.

182
00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:03,160
Thanks a lot.

183
00:09:03,680 --> 00:09:04,740
Well, it, I did.

184
00:09:04,820 --> 00:09:08,260
I don't know about you, but I got an email that at the end of October, now it's down to

185
00:09:08,260 --> 00:09:10,500
10, but I have 10 more PDFs I need to download.

186
00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:11,240
Likewise.

187
00:09:11,420 --> 00:09:12,900
Maybe your tokens are expiring.

188
00:09:13,460 --> 00:09:13,800
No, no.

189
00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:13,960
Yeah.

190
00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:14,900
Mine are too.

191
00:09:14,980 --> 00:09:16,280
So I'm grabbing random things.

192
00:09:16,340 --> 00:09:18,680
I may not read just to feel like I'm using it all.

193
00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:27,080
Well, you've just described my entire approach to getting, so, so also, uh, more closer to

194
00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:31,120
home, but narrowing down from there, the, uh, a new version of the spring framework came

195
00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:36,020
out that of course is the, uh, the longstanding, uh, you know, I mean, I don't know why I'm

196
00:09:36,020 --> 00:09:40,080
explaining it to this, this audience base, but you know, it's, it's a, a layering on top

197
00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:44,980
of, uh, and it's own, it's own things as well, uh, Java and adding out all sorts of middleware

198
00:09:44,980 --> 00:09:50,420
and, um, as the name would imply frameworks, uh, that many companies use to do their, the

199
00:09:50,420 --> 00:09:51,280
enterprise app dev.

200
00:09:51,380 --> 00:09:56,060
Now I'll admit that just like with the Gartner stuff, I haven't dug deep into it, but I think,

201
00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,540
I think, you know, a little bit more, but it's got a whole bunch of reactive stuff, which

202
00:09:59,540 --> 00:10:03,360
as I'm fond of saying, I had Josh long explained to me once, and there's something about backflows

203
00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:07,340
and something or another, it sounded wonderful and, and like good stuff.

204
00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:11,220
Uh, but, but there's a whole lot of stuff, uh, in there, but what, what's, uh, what's

205
00:10:11,220 --> 00:10:14,440
your quick highlights of what's in the spring framework five?

206
00:10:15,340 --> 00:10:16,940
Yeah, lots of good stuff in there at five.

207
00:10:17,060 --> 00:10:20,120
It was, as you mentioned, it's the reactive programming stuff, giving you an alternate

208
00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:24,420
programming model to just a traditional blocking request response sort of thing, having this

209
00:10:24,420 --> 00:10:26,180
more of asynchronous callback model.

210
00:10:26,300 --> 00:10:29,840
It's meant to be more scalable, can be more complicated, which is why you look to frameworks

211
00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,900
to simplify things like thread management and things that I don't want to deal with as a

212
00:10:33,900 --> 00:10:35,960
developer because it's hard and I can screw things up.

213
00:10:36,420 --> 00:10:38,020
So spring takes care of a lot of that.

214
00:10:38,100 --> 00:10:41,700
What's cool is that a lot of that flows down throughout the platform, down to the data tiers,

215
00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:42,840
down to other components.

216
00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,620
So it's not just like front end stuff all the way down to data queries.

217
00:10:46,620 --> 00:10:50,940
So spring data also got its first big update in like eight years at the same time.

218
00:10:51,020 --> 00:10:55,600
So that was cool not to be sort of don't bundle together things like spring boot.

219
00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:59,200
Spring boot two is coming out here in the coming months, which builds on spring framework

220
00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,820
five spring framework five really are foundational bits.

221
00:11:02,260 --> 00:11:06,040
And then things like boot and spring cloud and other things all extend beyond that.

222
00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:07,520
So the base is now updated.

223
00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:12,180
Everybody's now using that to package up all the new latest and greatest stuff on top and

224
00:11:12,180 --> 00:11:12,580
all that.

225
00:11:12,700 --> 00:11:16,660
You know, the other things that you mentioned kind of this month of September, we had PCF

226
00:11:16,660 --> 00:11:18,220
112, which was a big update.

227
00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:22,520
We had, I just did a blog post last week on all the things pivotal shipped in September.

228
00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:23,680
It was pretty wild stuff.

229
00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:25,640
So yeah, September was an awesome month.

230
00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:27,460
Spring framework five, probably the highlight.

231
00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,100
Same with green plum five, which was a huge update for that project as well.

232
00:11:31,100 --> 00:11:34,820
Well, we can do a little behind the curtain for our listeners.

233
00:11:34,940 --> 00:11:38,980
And I was just talking with our buddy, Jared, to do a little mini podcast on the new version

234
00:11:38,980 --> 00:11:40,840
of PCF since he wrote a blog post.

235
00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,100
So we'll have that out there sometime soon.

236
00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:50,080
I'll see if I can get the pivotal blog desk people to publish two of these in a week.

237
00:11:50,740 --> 00:11:52,180
I'll see what happens.

238
00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:52,860
It'll be exciting.

239
00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:58,140
You know, also, I was thinking if, uh, when and if I ever start some little VC fund to,

240
00:11:58,140 --> 00:12:02,740
uh, do middleware, I'm going to call it foundational bits and that'll, that'll be good.

241
00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:04,160
We'll just invest in.

242
00:12:04,620 --> 00:12:05,880
It's kind of what heavy bit does.

243
00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:09,960
If you've ever looked at their portfolio, it's basically a developer tools that they have.

244
00:12:10,140 --> 00:12:10,300
Got it.

245
00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:12,260
I don't know what a heavy bit is.

246
00:12:12,340 --> 00:12:13,840
Maybe that's some sort of nuclear thing.

247
00:12:14,260 --> 00:12:15,220
No, it's your bad name.

248
00:12:15,460 --> 00:12:15,960
There you go.

249
00:12:16,060 --> 00:12:19,600
But, you know, I spoke at their place once and, uh, they gave me a t-shirt and that's

250
00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:21,360
probably the t-shirt that I wear the most.

251
00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:22,900
One of those, uh, tri-blend things.

252
00:12:22,900 --> 00:12:27,780
Cause their logo is not too, um, nerd identifiable, very small.

253
00:12:27,900 --> 00:12:29,820
So I, you know, feel better.

254
00:12:29,820 --> 00:12:34,460
So speaking of nerd identifiable, uh, like there's a, there's a new book I started reading

255
00:12:34,460 --> 00:12:38,860
all about the nerd space, so to speak, um, called, called the four.

256
00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,140
And I don't know if you've ever come across this, uh, Scott Galloway.

257
00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:47,320
I don't know if it's Galloway or Galloway guy, but, um, I don't know.

258
00:12:48,140 --> 00:12:53,120
He's, he's one of those people who like makes a lot of inappropriate analogies in NBA speak.

259
00:12:53,260 --> 00:12:55,460
So he can be very entertaining or off-putting.

260
00:12:55,500 --> 00:13:00,160
Like, I mean, we'll get to talking about it, but, uh, in one of my recent columns, uh, someone

261
00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,260
had just thought after reading my stuff, they would advise the register that they should

262
00:13:03,260 --> 00:13:05,280
start hiring adults to write for them, which.

263
00:13:05,500 --> 00:13:05,900
I saw that.

264
00:13:05,980 --> 00:13:07,860
I like, I like that comment that made me laugh.

265
00:13:08,300 --> 00:13:13,800
So, so I think, I think, I think our buddy Scott here is clearly an adult, uh, but, uh,

266
00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:17,160
anyways, so he's a little bombastic, which can take a style to get over.

267
00:13:17,220 --> 00:13:21,100
And I haven't finished reading the book, but I think, I think what's why I bring it up here

268
00:13:21,100 --> 00:13:26,160
is so the four, I mean, whether you want to people come up with names for this, like,

269
00:13:26,180 --> 00:13:29,640
you know, Fang or whatever, uh, he doesn't cover Netflix.

270
00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:34,600
He alludes to them, but this one is basically Amazon, Facebook, Google, and, uh, Apple.

271
00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:39,520
And he sort of makes the case that these, obviously the tech's important and these, these

272
00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:44,240
four companies are basically coming to get everyone's lunch and or redefining what the

273
00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:46,400
competitive landscape looks like for business.

274
00:13:46,900 --> 00:13:50,860
Like I said, I haven't finished it yet, but it's, it's a nicer approach to that than the

275
00:13:50,860 --> 00:13:53,700
usual kind of throwaway business book that I've liked so far.

276
00:13:53,740 --> 00:13:58,520
And I think if, uh, if I can finish reading it, uh, by the end of this week, I've got another

277
00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:04,360
podcast I do where we, uh, spend way too, way too much time, excuse me, talking about

278
00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:08,500
business books and maybe we'll review this one, but, uh, I'll, I'll, I'll mention it again

279
00:14:08,500 --> 00:14:12,440
when we, uh, when I finish it up, it's, it's definitely worth looking into if you're interested

280
00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:18,340
in why you would care about technology and kind of in, as long as you've read the halo effect

281
00:14:18,340 --> 00:14:23,240
and you know what a halo effect is and how to filter, uh, analysis through that.

282
00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,960
It's interesting, uh, to learn from, uh, various assertions in there.

283
00:14:28,500 --> 00:14:28,940
Awesome.

284
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:33,960
So then also just to, uh, this is more of a, um, what would you call it?

285
00:14:34,660 --> 00:14:35,500
Momentum indicator.

286
00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:41,400
Also there was, there was a puppet and chef to two of the, uh, venerable and only the best

287
00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:46,860
meanings of that term, uh, configuration management and devopsy and cloud companies.

288
00:14:47,020 --> 00:14:53,560
They both came out with some releases that I would grossly oversimplify as, uh, the build

289
00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:55,020
pipeline is really important.

290
00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:01,520
And so, so puppet, uh, acquired a company sometime back that's got a name that's funny

291
00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:02,780
enough that I don't remember it.

292
00:15:03,140 --> 00:15:07,920
Um, and, uh, essentially it adds a lot of, of functionality.

293
00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:12,140
They had an announcement that they were bringing to, to, they were GA-ing, if you will, a lot

294
00:15:12,140 --> 00:15:15,820
of, uh, pipeline management and packaging and all sorts of things like that.

295
00:15:15,820 --> 00:15:16,060
Right.

296
00:15:16,060 --> 00:15:20,200
And, and then chef has a similar one with habitat or product they've had for a while, which

297
00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:21,940
has cloud foundry support into, in it.

298
00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:26,620
And I think what's interesting about both of those, which is not to say that, that this

299
00:15:26,620 --> 00:15:32,160
way of doing configuring didn't do this, but it's, it's, you're starting to see the shift

300
00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:37,660
where because of containers, I guess, instead of going out to configure the server, you're

301
00:15:37,660 --> 00:15:43,200
now configuring the image or the container and then handing it off to another platform to

302
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:47,900
install and do things for you, which again, is not like an absolute statement or whatever,

303
00:15:47,900 --> 00:15:50,160
but that's kind of in the configuration management space.

304
00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:55,460
It's I think an interesting technological trend to watch is when, when do your configuration

305
00:15:55,460 --> 00:16:01,480
management things stop going to the server or whatever and actually messing around with

306
00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:06,980
it and instead creating like whatever it is, an image or a container that then gets installed

307
00:16:06,980 --> 00:16:11,320
on it, which again, I mean, people have done that with VM images and stuff like that for

308
00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:15,620
a while, but it's a, it's still a somewhat of a shift from how things have been done.

309
00:16:16,620 --> 00:16:17,840
Yeah, no, it's, it's a good take.

310
00:16:17,940 --> 00:16:21,640
I mean, I think I saw those same things with Habitat and the things Puppet are doing.

311
00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,120
And others is just doing configuration management.

312
00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:26,800
There's more you can impact if you're these companies.

313
00:16:26,940 --> 00:16:30,740
So yeah, the build pipeline, actually dealing with app constructs and not just infrastructure,

314
00:16:30,900 --> 00:16:34,920
also things you're seeing them talk about more now is actually getting the apps to these

315
00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:37,020
environments, not just configuring the environments.

316
00:16:37,020 --> 00:16:41,500
I mean, we, we talk about a lot with Bosch, you know, managing things at scale and there's

317
00:16:41,500 --> 00:16:43,200
just bigger problems we're starting to solve now.

318
00:16:43,260 --> 00:16:48,380
So it's cool to see these, you know, venerable DevOps companies take a, take a swing at it.

319
00:16:48,780 --> 00:16:52,900
Well, so also in news, but we can focus a little bit more on it since it's closer in

320
00:16:52,900 --> 00:16:53,240
our world.

321
00:16:53,340 --> 00:17:00,080
The last week was the Cloud Foundry Summit EU, you know, about the entire ecosystem of,

322
00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:02,920
of, of Cloud Foundry, the open source thing and everything.

323
00:17:03,300 --> 00:17:07,020
So I think, I mean, there, there were many things, there's an overall press release and

324
00:17:07,020 --> 00:17:13,240
there's a few other ancillary announcements around it, but I don't know for, for, for

325
00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,860
my, for my money, not that I'm really spending any, cause I'm trying to fund that how to eat

326
00:17:16,860 --> 00:17:19,340
project, but sure, of course.

327
00:17:19,780 --> 00:17:22,960
And now, and now you've got me worried about budgeting for going to a grocery store.

328
00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,680
Maybe, maybe I can get the grocery stores to pay me to go there.

329
00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,980
Uh, as long as I talk with like a regional assistant manager or something, but anyhow.

330
00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:38,900
Uh, so there was basically, um, there's a lot of, um, uh, coalescing around basically

331
00:17:38,900 --> 00:17:43,220
taking Kubo, which is the way of, of running Kubernetes on top of, uh, not on top

332
00:17:43,220 --> 00:17:48,000
of with Cloud Foundry and, uh, making there, there's a, there's a fancy longer name.

333
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,880
I, I think, I think either you give something a funny name nowadays, or it has to have four

334
00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:52,680
words in it.

335
00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:56,860
So that's exciting, but, uh, you know, it's, it's, what, what is it?

336
00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:01,200
The, the Cloud Foundry container runtime, which I think fits with the general naming scheme

337
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:01,660
of things.

338
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:07,380
So, well, they, they did it with the renaming as well of the Elastic runtime for Cloud Foundry

339
00:18:07,380 --> 00:18:11,520
application runtime, which really, I think finally helps people, I think, visualize how these

340
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:12,320
things work together.

341
00:18:12,580 --> 00:18:13,100
That's right.

342
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:13,420
That's right.

343
00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:19,160
And I've started to use this one slide at DevOps days that, uh, that, that we had, or,

344
00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:25,260
or was to be had by whoever the, the, the owner was, uh, back at VMworld that shows

345
00:18:25,260 --> 00:18:30,940
how, um, the, uh, the, the, the app part runs alongside, uh, the content, the container

346
00:18:30,940 --> 00:18:35,700
for that, excuse me, the PKS part, which I think, I think is a useful way of illustrating

347
00:18:35,700 --> 00:18:35,940
it.

348
00:18:35,940 --> 00:18:39,720
And, uh, there's another good, uh, excellent illustration of this by, by our friend, Ian

349
00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,500
Andrews, uh, Bart and George did a film with them.

350
00:18:42,500 --> 00:18:46,840
And, uh, I think Ian did his best James water impersonation, perhaps the best I've ever

351
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:51,860
seen where he got, he got a, he got a sheet of paper and he drew out, he whiteboarded,

352
00:18:51,900 --> 00:18:53,540
uh, how this all fits together.

353
00:18:53,540 --> 00:18:57,320
And it is, um, Oh, I have a link to it here in the show notes, but it's a good general

354
00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:58,920
overview of all of cloud foundry.

355
00:18:59,500 --> 00:19:01,940
Um, and especially it's pretty detailed.

356
00:19:01,940 --> 00:19:06,400
Like it goes down to Bosch and talks about it, but it also talks about how, uh, not only

357
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:10,360
the cloud foundry container runtime, but the pivotal container service, you know, of course

358
00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:11,660
fits into it and everything else.

359
00:19:11,660 --> 00:19:17,020
So it gives you a full sense of essentially with, with these two parts and then the, uh,

360
00:19:17,020 --> 00:19:22,800
the Bosch managed, um, I don't know, infrastructure use below, you really have like pretty

361
00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:27,880
much all the, the cloud native option, the modern options you would want for running, running

362
00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:33,120
applications, whether it's sort of like a super cloud native 12 factory stuff that, that most

363
00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:38,860
all of our customers have been using, uh, thus forth, or you want to go down the, uh, get,

364
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:42,760
get your hands more dirty by running it in Kubernetes type approach that you have.

365
00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:44,760
Yeah, no good summary.

366
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:49,320
I think if it's, I mean, Jules from IBM had a good post today talking about as we think

367
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:53,600
of the application runtime versus the container runtime and talking about, like, it's not even

368
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,920
just about who builds the container when you pick those two things.

369
00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:01,100
It's also his point was cloud foundry is optimized for stateless apps and you use some of these

370
00:20:01,100 --> 00:20:03,040
other technologies for more stateful apps.

371
00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:07,200
It's in that, you know, cloud foundry CF push is still one of the most powerful constructs

372
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:11,540
available in technology today when it comes to application development that does a lot more

373
00:20:11,540 --> 00:20:12,640
than just build a container.

374
00:20:12,820 --> 00:20:17,520
It obviously handles some of the security components and hooks up monitoring and logging all these

375
00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:18,000
fun things.

376
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:22,360
So it's neat when you have these sort of different runtimes all managed by the same infrastructure.

377
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:26,960
That's a really powerful thing versus all these bespoke systems that you're stuck kind of stitching

378
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:31,000
together with different security models, different patching cycles, different op skills.

379
00:20:31,700 --> 00:20:35,120
You know, this gets pretty interesting when you have the application runtime, container runtime,

380
00:20:35,620 --> 00:20:36,980
sitting here with that same foundation.

381
00:20:37,660 --> 00:20:38,000
Yeah, yeah.

382
00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:42,560
It's, I mean, it starts to be as, as we've called it a platform and I'll, I'll have to go find a link

383
00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:47,200
to this, but I was looking over some, uh, some of our road showed slides and, um, I think, uh,

384
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:48,400
there's a couple of people who give it.

385
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:54,060
Um, but there's one presentation that we have, uh, that, uh, that goes over like all

386
00:20:54,060 --> 00:20:57,140
these different things you were saying and how they kind of reduced down to a platform.

387
00:20:57,140 --> 00:21:00,300
And, and I think, uh, I think everything's kind of coalescing around that.

388
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,060
You get the whole stack of stuff, the platform that you need to run everything.

389
00:21:04,060 --> 00:21:07,720
The, the other two things is there was, uh, there were several new members to the, the

390
00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:08,680
cloud foundry foundation.

391
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:13,540
I think, I think it's always notable when they, uh, I mean, I love a tech vendor, but like

392
00:21:13,540 --> 00:21:16,340
whatever, you know, tech vendors will do tech vendor stuff.

393
00:21:16,340 --> 00:21:20,800
So it's great when they join and, uh, it's always enjoyable, but even more valuable is

394
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:26,960
when people like home Depot, uh, actual enterprises join because they have, uh, such, such a, I

395
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,760
don't know, such, such a usage and commitment therefore to the cloud foundry ecosystem that

396
00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,200
they want to go through the trouble of ponying and, you know, one goes through the trouble

397
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:35,740
of ponying it up extra money.

398
00:21:35,740 --> 00:21:41,180
But then also as, uh, as, as hopefully most of them do getting involved in having a closer

399
00:21:41,180 --> 00:21:44,200
relationship with the, uh, the software that they use.

400
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:49,660
It's almost like we're getting to that idea way back when from the, uh, rainbows and sandals

401
00:21:49,660 --> 00:21:53,660
air where people, uh, people really care about their source code and they want to contribute

402
00:21:53,660 --> 00:21:54,260
to it.

403
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:58,200
Not, not just as certain people have suggested to the federal government recently that they

404
00:21:58,200 --> 00:21:59,840
should just pay someone to do that for them.

405
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:00,980
And not worry about it.

406
00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:01,520
Right.

407
00:22:01,620 --> 00:22:02,060
No, I love it.

408
00:22:02,060 --> 00:22:02,560
You brought that up.

409
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:06,160
That was the point I wanted to make was, you know, that was the thing I know governor talked

410
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:09,280
about, James governor of red bunk talked about as well with, yeah.

411
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:11,080
I mean, home Depot joining, you look at, what's it?

412
00:22:11,140 --> 00:22:17,120
40% of the CFF foundation members are quote unquote enterprises that aren't software companies.

413
00:22:17,120 --> 00:22:18,420
They're not coming up with distributions.

414
00:22:18,420 --> 00:22:21,160
They're not building add ons, which is also all awesome, right?

415
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:26,400
You love a foundation that also has investors who are contributing code and making sure you

416
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:27,640
can plug, make things pluggable.

417
00:22:27,740 --> 00:22:28,700
That's all super exciting.

418
00:22:28,700 --> 00:22:32,760
But when you also have stakeholders, when you do have these enterprises who say, look, I'm

419
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,260
betting my business on this tech and I want it to be successful.

420
00:22:35,740 --> 00:22:36,920
I think that's pretty exciting.

421
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,820
And even back to, to something you and I talked about before we started to hear with even

422
00:22:40,820 --> 00:22:44,200
SpringOne, you know, we've, we've shared more of the agenda coming up with that.

423
00:22:44,260 --> 00:22:48,700
And that is just full of, again, more name brand enterprises than I've ever seen speak

424
00:22:48,700 --> 00:22:52,520
at a, speak at a tech conference, not a 10, because there's always been enterprise folks

425
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:57,040
who attended conferences, but more of these name brand, like, oh my gosh, my parents know

426
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:02,220
who these are companies who are speaking about this sort of deep investment in this technology

427
00:23:02,220 --> 00:23:03,560
that's changing how they operate.

428
00:23:03,620 --> 00:23:06,480
I think that's exciting stuff that we didn't see five or 10 years ago.

429
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,560
All these tech conferences were full of vendors, sometimes talking to vendors.

430
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,820
And now you've got enterprises saying like, look, we're, we're kind of software companies

431
00:23:13,820 --> 00:23:17,260
in a sense, and we're betting on some of these technologies at scale.

432
00:23:17,380 --> 00:23:18,400
Let's talk about it.

433
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:19,580
I, that's, that's super great.

434
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:21,180
And seeing that at CF summit was good too.

435
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:21,760
Yeah.

436
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,040
I just, to do a little ad for the SpringOne platform.

437
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:28,680
I, uh, we were, uh, I think, I think we're supposed to help finalize some track thing,

438
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:32,620
putting together all the, uh, the track stuff for conferences is always delightful.

439
00:23:32,620 --> 00:23:37,640
And I'm glad I basically don't have to do much there, but so, so we'll see how it evolves,

440
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:43,520
but it is, I, you know, I, I'm, I'm one of the track chairs for the, um, the, uh, I don't

441
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:47,120
know, DevOps and build pipeline and, uh, and miscellaneous track.

442
00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:52,360
But I know for sure that in that track, we, we spend a lot of time sourcing, uh, what you

443
00:23:52,360 --> 00:23:56,320
might call customer cases, people actually talking about how, how they've done this stuff there.

444
00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:00,560
And looking across the other ones, just as you were saying, like, I think, you know, I

445
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,100
think the emphasis of the conference is very genuinely like, here's all the technical stuff

446
00:24:04,100 --> 00:24:04,540
for sure.

447
00:24:04,660 --> 00:24:09,640
We got plenty of that, but then also let's actually bring some actual users, uh, who can

448
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,700
talk about their experience with it and share tips on putting it in place, which you don't

449
00:24:13,700 --> 00:24:14,860
always see in a lot of conferences.

450
00:24:14,860 --> 00:24:20,020
Most, I think most conferences like this, they, they skew more towards the technology part as

451
00:24:20,020 --> 00:24:20,800
they probably should.

452
00:24:21,140 --> 00:24:26,180
But, uh, I, I think everything in the cloud native area area is early enough that it's,

453
00:24:26,180 --> 00:24:30,300
it's important to start talking about, uh, all, all the people actually using it, which,

454
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:30,940
which will be nice.

455
00:24:30,940 --> 00:24:33,180
And, and I think you can still use this.

456
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:38,680
If you want to get $200 off registration, you can use the code S1P200 underscore.

457
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,720
If you remember that key, uh, Coté, C O T E.

458
00:24:41,860 --> 00:24:46,180
I don't think anyone signed up for that, but I like this fantasy land where, uh, where I

459
00:24:46,180 --> 00:24:49,360
give out a code and people would actually get $200 off.

460
00:24:49,620 --> 00:24:50,700
Anyways, it's the beginning of December.

461
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:52,300
Yeah, keep flogging it.

462
00:24:52,360 --> 00:24:55,460
It's it's no, it's, it's sincerely, I mean, as someone who attends a lot of conferences, it's

463
00:24:55,460 --> 00:24:59,100
the best technical program I've seen at a conference in years looking at the whole thing.

464
00:24:59,500 --> 00:25:02,120
So whether you're a spring developer or not, it's awesome stuff.

465
00:25:02,180 --> 00:25:04,880
And you're saying, again, you're seeing this at the CF summit as well, where it's not just

466
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,460
cloud founder, it's also distributed systems concepts.

467
00:25:07,620 --> 00:25:09,540
It's Kubernetes, it's other things.

468
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,580
So I think we're in this fun space right now where we're not just single, single focused

469
00:25:13,580 --> 00:25:17,820
on like one type of thing, but we're thinking about how do companies improve business performance

470
00:25:17,820 --> 00:25:18,480
through software?

471
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:20,520
That's, I don't know, that's a lot of fun for me.

472
00:25:20,540 --> 00:25:22,420
And I think for a lot of our listeners, absolutely.

473
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:22,980
All right.

474
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:27,260
Well, uh, so then the last thing there, before we get to, uh, a little, a little overview

475
00:25:27,260 --> 00:25:32,080
of stuff we've been working on recently, um, speaking of self-promotion there, there's

476
00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,140
a, when we get to that part, there's also a new survey.

477
00:25:34,140 --> 00:25:37,660
The, uh, the cloud foundry foundations have been putting out a lot of surveys recently.

478
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:43,100
And this one is a, uh, a user survey, which by its title and reading through demographics,

479
00:25:43,100 --> 00:25:47,240
I presume means people who use cloud foundry, which, which sounds good.

480
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,660
And so I wrote, I wrote a quick summary on my own blog that I'll link to about my, uh,

481
00:25:51,660 --> 00:25:52,620
my highlights for it.

482
00:25:52,620 --> 00:25:58,740
But, you know, essentially the, I think, I think there's maybe, um, I would say three main

483
00:25:58,740 --> 00:25:59,240
takeaways.

484
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:04,100
One of them is, and I don't know the exact methodology that they did this with, but it's

485
00:26:04,100 --> 00:26:04,400
fine.

486
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:10,600
I'm sure is you can, there, there's a, some good before and after analysis of, uh, of

487
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:12,120
release speed, right?

488
00:26:12,120 --> 00:26:14,020
Your ability to release software frequently.

489
00:26:14,020 --> 00:26:18,560
And as always like nearly releasing software, being able to release software frequently is

490
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:19,720
not that big deal, right?

491
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,980
Like you might be just changing the background color of a header in your 500 page application.

492
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:30,220
But if you're using that as a way to, uh, one, keep things secure because you can release

493
00:26:30,220 --> 00:26:36,360
patches and, and, and fix things up, but to continually experiment and try out new ways

494
00:26:36,360 --> 00:26:40,520
that your software can accomplish whatever goals it is, then I think that is pretty indicative

495
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,700
of a, uh, a helpful and healthy attribute that you have.

496
00:26:43,700 --> 00:26:48,040
So you can see in the, there's, there's kind of a hard to read chart there, but it gets

497
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:53,100
summarized well about how, how people have, when they start using cloud foundry, they're

498
00:26:53,100 --> 00:26:55,940
able to speed that release cycle up, which, which is nice.

499
00:26:55,940 --> 00:27:00,900
And then I think, I think the second and third thing is there's, there's some analysis of

500
00:27:00,900 --> 00:27:06,100
surveying and therefore analysis of basically, uh, people do use multi-cloud things.

501
00:27:06,100 --> 00:27:11,320
So they, they run their cloud foundry instance on more than one type of infrastructure, which

502
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:12,940
I think is, is interesting to see.

503
00:27:13,380 --> 00:27:13,780
Yeah.

504
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,380
Or, and I guess intuitively it's kind of obvious, but it's always good to have validation.

505
00:27:17,700 --> 00:27:22,780
And then also as part of that is, um, there's some surveying about what kind of container

506
00:27:22,780 --> 00:27:27,300
orchestration frameworks people use, which, which is, uh, which is interesting as well,

507
00:27:27,300 --> 00:27:29,200
just from a informational point of view.

508
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,640
And then finally, this is kind of small, but like there's some mention of, uh, the number

509
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,640
of applications that a few different, uh, customers use.

510
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:43,760
And so you can get a sense of the maturity of, of users and enterprises using a cloud foundry

511
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:44,260
here and there.

512
00:27:44,260 --> 00:27:49,580
Like for example, the notes that Comcast has a 1500 developers using it and Home Depot has

513
00:27:49,580 --> 00:27:51,140
more than 2,500 developers.

514
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:57,280
And then there's, um, there's some good, uh, survey results in pie charts about, uh, I think

515
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:03,100
they break it out into maybe like 10 to 20 and then 50 and a hundred and then 500 plus,

516
00:28:03,140 --> 00:28:06,840
and then a thousand plus, uh, apps that people run in it.

517
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,420
So it's a good, it's the title.

518
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:15,820
I would have titled it something more like the state of the, uh, the cloud foundry user base.

519
00:28:16,140 --> 00:28:20,280
That would, that would be my first suggestion that would be worked on quite a bit, but,

520
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:21,320
uh, to that.

521
00:28:21,380 --> 00:28:24,920
And I think it's a good, it's a good snapshot of what's going on with cloud foundry usage

522
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:26,420
out there, uh, which.

523
00:28:26,620 --> 00:28:27,820
Yeah, that's a good summary.

524
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,020
I thought, yeah, like you said, the multi-cloud was interesting.

525
00:28:30,140 --> 00:28:35,100
You still have 40 something percent on, on vSphere and really with another 22 on open stacks.

526
00:28:35,100 --> 00:28:39,360
You're still talking almost two thirds is sitting on premises or, but then you also see,

527
00:28:39,460 --> 00:28:44,000
you know, cause the numbers don't add up, uh, plenty of people still using public cloud

528
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:45,800
with it, which is great, but I liked the point you made.

529
00:28:45,820 --> 00:28:51,400
Cause I also jumped out at me that you had what 28% of organizations with 50 or more developers

530
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:52,140
using this.

531
00:28:52,140 --> 00:28:57,420
And to your pie chart number, it was, I think it was a third of these accounts are using

532
00:28:57,420 --> 00:28:59,520
more than 50 apps in the platform.

533
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,900
So to me, it means like, this is not just, we installed this departmentally.

534
00:29:02,900 --> 00:29:07,060
We're now on some vendors logo slide because we signed a contract and pushed it to dev.

535
00:29:07,140 --> 00:29:11,540
Like, no, no, this is like, this is running a big part of our business and we have now

536
00:29:11,540 --> 00:29:13,760
dozens or hundreds of people using it.

537
00:29:13,860 --> 00:29:16,100
To me, that's when this tech starts to hit critical mass.

538
00:29:16,140 --> 00:29:18,000
It's not just kicking the tires.

539
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,200
This is probably running at least one core business app at a lot of these companies, which

540
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:22,500
is cool.

541
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:23,440
Yeah.

542
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,760
I was reading a summary of a summary of, uh, you know, as you noted before, every, uh,

543
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,260
every Monday we get these notes about what's going on in the field and to kind of unhelpfully

544
00:29:31,260 --> 00:29:36,460
anonymize it, there was one anecdote I was hearing where, um, on a weekly basis, there

545
00:29:36,460 --> 00:29:40,980
was one of, one of our customers using pivotal cloud foundry that was updating one of their,

546
00:29:40,980 --> 00:29:44,640
uh, their, their core applications, I don't know, six or seven times a week.

547
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:49,640
And no one, no one noticed in a good way, which is to say no one noticed that things

548
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,380
might be broken or down or whatever.

549
00:29:51,380 --> 00:29:55,900
They were able to upgrade, uh, without impact, which, which that's, that's always heartening

550
00:29:55,900 --> 00:29:56,280
to hear.

551
00:29:56,420 --> 00:30:01,160
We'll get all these, these effects of, uh, you know, the, the crazy.com people in the

552
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:01,700
real world.

553
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:03,240
Well, you joked about it.

554
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,740
Like, Hey, sometimes it's just changing a color scheme, but I think we've all worked in

555
00:30:06,740 --> 00:30:09,480
places where even doing that required like a quarterly release.

556
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:09,720
Yeah.

557
00:30:09,820 --> 00:30:09,980
Yeah.

558
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:10,180
Right.

559
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:11,700
Just everything was so bundled up.

560
00:30:11,700 --> 00:30:12,540
It was a pain in the neck.

561
00:30:12,540 --> 00:30:16,600
If there was a bug or a feature problems, like, well, we'll fix it next six months instead

562
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:17,580
of like, yeah, I fixed it now.

563
00:30:17,580 --> 00:30:19,400
By the time we finished talking, it's in production.

564
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,760
Like that does change the game for a lot of these companies.

565
00:30:22,060 --> 00:30:22,180
Yeah.

566
00:30:22,300 --> 00:30:25,520
And, and so you, you wrote a post recently velocity as a service.

567
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:27,160
I haven't ever heard the Vaz thing.

568
00:30:27,340 --> 00:30:30,860
I think we need to follow up with the, uh, with the Gartner Paz people to see if that's

569
00:30:30,860 --> 00:30:31,540
a new category.

570
00:30:31,900 --> 00:30:32,680
Don't, don't, don't do that.

571
00:30:32,780 --> 00:30:33,480
Don't make it in there.

572
00:30:35,260 --> 00:30:41,060
But, uh, so what, what were you, it was, it was five ways to ship like a software company.

573
00:30:41,260 --> 00:30:44,140
So what are these, uh, what are the tips you were throwing out there?

574
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:45,120
Yeah.

575
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,060
Cause I didn't want to make it just nothing but a humble brag post about all the software

576
00:30:48,060 --> 00:30:52,420
we shipped because my, my, my really conclusion point was, I think it was more like a helpful

577
00:30:52,420 --> 00:30:53,140
brag post.

578
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:53,580
Yeah.

579
00:30:53,580 --> 00:30:54,200
Maybe that's out.

580
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:58,760
I mean, my concluding point was, look, every one of the enterprises I think that uses PCF

581
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,980
or at least most of them have more developers than Pivotal does, which if you make some sort

582
00:31:02,980 --> 00:31:07,020
of extrapolations, you could say every one of our customers should out ship us, right?

583
00:31:07,100 --> 00:31:10,640
I mean, we're much smaller than our, our customers are.

584
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,800
And so for many of these enterprises, they have enough people.

585
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:14,180
They should be shipping software constantly.

586
00:31:14,380 --> 00:31:20,160
While we shipped absolutely tons of stuff in September, I looked at kind of how have I

587
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,340
noticed that we've gotten better since I joined here a year and a half ago.

588
00:31:23,380 --> 00:31:25,760
And, you know, it was more and more about making the pipeline.

589
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,460
It's kind of step one, which figuring out where to automate.

590
00:31:28,460 --> 00:31:32,840
You know, I've spent more time studying into value stream mapping and studying into lean

591
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:34,360
and over these last few years.

592
00:31:34,500 --> 00:31:38,300
And again, theory of constraints, if I'm, if I'm optimizing the wrong places, I'm wasting

593
00:31:38,300 --> 00:31:38,780
my time.

594
00:31:39,100 --> 00:31:40,680
I need to optimize bottlenecks.

595
00:31:40,740 --> 00:31:41,840
I need to elevate constraints.

596
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:45,600
And so looking at where you automate, but then incrementally doing it, it can't be all

597
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,160
or nothing because that'll take you forever.

598
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,200
So step one was legitimately investing in that.

599
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,420
I think for Pivotal, that's, that's done a huge difference where we have our master pipeline

600
00:31:54,420 --> 00:31:58,940
and we have these components that fundamentally build PCF on every cloud all the time.

601
00:31:59,300 --> 00:32:00,420
That that's helped us a lot.

602
00:32:00,860 --> 00:32:04,480
And then the second one was improving some of the cross team visibility, right?

603
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,480
You walk around our Pivotal offices and there's just concourse pipelines on every monitor

604
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,560
up on the, up on TVs.

605
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,460
And it's look, teams can see how everyone's build is doing.

606
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,240
We get these giant sets of drumbeat emails in every Friday afternoon.

607
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:18,560
So we see what the highlights are.

608
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:23,940
I, this morning jumped into the product backlog for a number of teams to see what the next

609
00:32:23,940 --> 00:32:24,840
major release had.

610
00:32:24,980 --> 00:32:29,720
So this sort of hyper-transparency sometimes makes people uncomfortable when it's about fiefdoms

611
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,920
and local optimizations of teams.

612
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,780
But when you take it as, are we making our customers' lives better?

613
00:32:34,900 --> 00:32:38,620
Then you kind of improve your transparency and want people to see what you're working on.

614
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,460
The third step was upgrading your tech.

615
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:46,680
And I think your, your, uh, register posts touched on this sometimes a little bit as well,

616
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:52,320
which is sometimes you can almost over-rotate on culture and focus so much on meatware, as

617
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,920
you would say that you, you leave your kind of sometimes the tech stuff wanting.

618
00:32:56,340 --> 00:33:00,400
And if you aren't actually operating like a software shop with your tech, sometimes those cultural

619
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:01,360
things are wasted.

620
00:33:01,500 --> 00:33:03,740
And so you've got to actually upgrade your tech stack.

621
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:04,200
Right.

622
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,980
Uh, number four, I looked at the self-service stuff.

623
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:12,540
I mean, again, I've watched everything isn't automated within Pivotal, but I've, I was on

624
00:33:12,540 --> 00:33:16,620
a, an internal page last week where it was, Hey, if you want to join the master pipeline,

625
00:33:16,740 --> 00:33:19,820
here's this whole set of steps and here's your prereqs before you contact us.

626
00:33:19,820 --> 00:33:20,940
And here's what you can expect.

627
00:33:20,940 --> 00:33:24,720
And this is how your team can now build its product on this pipeline.

628
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:29,120
And it wasn't completely self-service, but it was also a lot, very much more empowering

629
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:33,140
than let me hunt down a person who can tell me some tribal knowledge of how to do something.

630
00:33:33,140 --> 00:33:39,140
So documentation, APIs, all these kinds of things that get individual teams away from

631
00:33:39,140 --> 00:33:39,760
blocking you.

632
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,700
And then the last thing I pointed out was the release train.

633
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:47,600
Again, when I joined here, I don't know, a year and a half ago, it was, you know, four

634
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,020
months for a release to maybe seven months and three months.

635
00:33:50,020 --> 00:33:51,540
It was just a bit choppy.

636
00:33:51,820 --> 00:33:54,680
And the team said, look, we're going to ship quarterly and what's ready is going to ship.

637
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,120
And if something's not ready, it ships the next time.

638
00:33:57,260 --> 00:34:00,060
And you have this sort of release train, I get on the train, you missed it.

639
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:00,380
Fine.

640
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:01,100
You'll go on the next one.

641
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:02,320
We do not hold up releases.

642
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:07,020
And we've all, again, probably listeners here, you, yourself, me, have been on these

643
00:34:07,020 --> 00:34:10,520
sort of death march projects that keep missing their date because, you know what, you didn't

644
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,760
finish that last feature or this testing of this whole thing isn't done.

645
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,900
And so this idea of just saying it's about getting things out the door so customers can

646
00:34:17,900 --> 00:34:21,040
use it, give you feedback and improve it, it's a discipline.

647
00:34:21,420 --> 00:34:23,160
But I think for us, that's changed a lot.

648
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:24,340
A spring team does that.

649
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:25,380
Rabbit team does that.

650
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:26,680
PCF team does that.

651
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,700
All of this sort of model of just keep shipping, keep learning.

652
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:31,920
And, you know, I think that's helped a lot.

653
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,420
So those five things, I try not to be too contrived.

654
00:34:34,500 --> 00:34:35,460
Those are real things we do.

655
00:34:35,900 --> 00:34:40,560
And if you do that, gosh, I just don't see how any of our customers shouldn't be out shipping

656
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:41,240
us every month.

657
00:34:41,740 --> 00:34:47,240
Yeah, it's a good summary of the, you know, this is a joke, I think, from Martin Fowler

658
00:34:47,240 --> 00:34:50,120
about microservices, the how tall you must be to ride the ride.

659
00:34:50,620 --> 00:34:55,380
And, you know, I think, I think the last one in particular is like one of the more valuable

660
00:34:55,380 --> 00:35:02,420
yet unhelpfully mystic things of, of agile software development, which is, I'm not going

661
00:35:02,420 --> 00:35:09,120
to promise to meet any dates, but I'll promise I'll release like at the same time, like, what's

662
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:09,520
the phrasing?

663
00:35:09,660 --> 00:35:14,680
I'm going to release every week, but I make no promises about what's in there, which, which

664
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,160
is really like disconcerting.

665
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:24,680
If you have this trust in a traditional waterfall approach, which is to say, here are the 50 things

666
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:29,720
that we're going to commit to releasing in 12 months or something, whatever it may be.

667
00:35:29,720 --> 00:35:34,940
And so at first blush, this, this mystic thing I'm talking about sounds like, so you're not

668
00:35:34,940 --> 00:35:40,120
going to release my software, but, but if you couple it together with something we were

669
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:44,780
talking about earlier is if you can release frequency, then you, you're reliably doing

670
00:35:44,780 --> 00:35:45,320
something.

671
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:52,040
And so I think, I think the, this is yet another way to trick people into realizing that software

672
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,160
is very hard and you can't make any estimates around it.

673
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,940
And so instead, what you want to do is you want to just know that each week you'll be

674
00:35:58,940 --> 00:35:59,820
releasing something.

675
00:36:00,140 --> 00:36:06,340
And so you'll be, I don't know, hewing to reality instead of just kind of, uh, estimating

676
00:36:06,340 --> 00:36:08,320
and making up what's going to happen in 12 months.

677
00:36:08,500 --> 00:36:10,220
You just take things as they come.

678
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:10,820
Right.

679
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:15,420
That's the thing is there's no 12, 18, three year estimate that's ever right ever.

680
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:20,460
So all we're spending months locked in rooms with flow charts and Gantt charts when really

681
00:36:20,460 --> 00:36:25,040
I would rather the team optimize for maneuverability and adaptability and saying, look, we're going

682
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:25,780
to ship constantly.

683
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,300
I have no idea what we're going to ship in six months.

684
00:36:28,380 --> 00:36:30,700
All I know is it's going to be something our customers care about.

685
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,520
And if you say no to that, I think you're just stuck kind of in an older mindset where

686
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,840
you were worried about big releases where you had to promise everything.

687
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,260
Cause after the project shipped, everybody went away and that was the final thing you

688
00:36:41,260 --> 00:36:41,600
had.

689
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:43,600
And that's not the way for software anymore.

690
00:36:43,740 --> 00:36:44,740
Things shouldn't be done.

691
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:46,420
Things should constantly be iterated.

692
00:36:46,420 --> 00:36:49,680
So as people start to recognize that, yeah, you're not going to leave me once you ship

693
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:50,120
software.

694
00:36:50,260 --> 00:36:53,820
I can trust the fact that if I keep seeing progress, you'll get to where I want eventually.

695
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:54,500
Yeah.

696
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,260
I mean, it's sort of like, I don't know about in your neck of the woods, but it seems like

697
00:36:57,260 --> 00:36:58,800
the highway projects are never done.

698
00:36:58,980 --> 00:37:03,120
And last I checked, we've been building roads since way before the Romans.

699
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:08,120
And if we can't estimate that, like in our, in our little blip of an industry of software

700
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:12,240
development, which is like what, I don't know, 50, 60 years old at the best, depending on

701
00:37:12,240 --> 00:37:13,020
when you start counting.

702
00:37:13,020 --> 00:37:14,920
Like, of course we don't know how to estimate.

703
00:37:15,020 --> 00:37:20,080
They can't even estimate a road, which, which is pretty fundamental thing in human engineering.

704
00:37:21,220 --> 00:37:21,620
Yep.

705
00:37:21,740 --> 00:37:25,340
But progress, visible progress makes a huge difference at most of the companies.

706
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:29,340
I think you and I always talk to around here is that just gets everybody amped up when they

707
00:37:29,340 --> 00:37:32,060
see things constantly happening and they don't wait for the big bangs.

708
00:37:32,420 --> 00:37:32,780
Man.

709
00:37:32,860 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaking of, of, uh, bacon in New Zealand, lots of construction around Auckland.

710
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:38,320
You got to plan around that.

711
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,620
If you're going to drive your two and a half hours to go see the glow room caves or the

712
00:37:41,620 --> 00:37:44,580
Hobbiton, it's going to be a lot slower than the maps tell you.

713
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:48,560
Cause you got a bunch of construction and I could never figure out like if people drive

714
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:50,200
fast or slow there, right?

715
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:55,180
Like, cause it seemed to be a big emphasis on it's only ever a hundred kilometers an hour

716
00:37:55,180 --> 00:37:58,920
and people didn't seem to drive fast, but then you get out into the, uh, the country or whatever

717
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,380
they call it over there and you feel like you're the slowest person on the road.

718
00:38:02,380 --> 00:38:07,420
But then there was like tons of, uh, police officers over there stopping people.

719
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:08,400
So I don't know.

720
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:09,320
I don't know what's happening.

721
00:38:09,540 --> 00:38:10,020
Did you drive?

722
00:38:10,100 --> 00:38:11,660
Cause I drove over there on the wrong side.

723
00:38:11,700 --> 00:38:12,800
I was just trying not to kill myself.

724
00:38:12,900 --> 00:38:13,180
Oh yeah.

725
00:38:13,220 --> 00:38:13,380
Yeah.

726
00:38:13,380 --> 00:38:16,220
Both, both my wife and I drove and yeah, it was, it was weird.

727
00:38:16,220 --> 00:38:20,100
It took like a couple of days to, uh, to adapt, especially eventually the

728
00:38:20,100 --> 00:38:26,840
most difficult things in a, in ascending order to be all confusing is basically, uh, doing

729
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:33,040
the left turn is weird and doing, doing, doing, doing, uh, doing the right turn is really weird

730
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:37,260
because the right turn is like a left turn and that you go into the, I don't know, it's

731
00:38:37,260 --> 00:38:37,820
just very bizarre.

732
00:38:37,820 --> 00:38:42,180
And then, and then backing up what a disaster that is, right?

733
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:47,520
Like it's just, my brain is just wired to back up the, uh, the, uh, the American style, not

734
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:48,240
like back.

735
00:38:48,380 --> 00:38:51,860
It's very confusing, but anyhow, lots of construction there.

736
00:38:52,260 --> 00:38:57,120
Uh, so then, yeah, I, speaking of, uh, uh, self-flogging as it were.

737
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:01,960
Uh, so I, I, in this time, I think I've had, uh, uh, two register pieces come out.

738
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:06,380
Now, one of them was like, they have a, uh, speaking of continuous, uh, delivery, they've

739
00:39:06,380 --> 00:39:10,320
got a conference coming up in, I don't know, early next year.

740
00:39:10,660 --> 00:39:11,920
Um, their second one of this.

741
00:39:11,980 --> 00:39:15,500
And so, uh, my editor over there, he also does a feature editing.

742
00:39:15,500 --> 00:39:20,060
So he's, he's done a few pieces on, um, trying to drive traffic to there.

743
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:24,680
There's actually of all people, I'm sure everyone who listens here follows tech news

744
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:29,900
reporters and people and as closely as I do, but of all people, they got Trevor Potts to

745
00:39:29,900 --> 00:39:33,660
write an overview of microservices, which I'm looking forward to, uh, to reading.

746
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,700
He has one of my favorite tech columns ever where he spins.

747
00:39:37,700 --> 00:39:41,880
And I mean, this only in the most beloved way where he spins like the first two paragraphs

748
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,440
talking about how, uh, it's like a country Western song.

749
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,620
He's like this week, my cat died and I had to move.

750
00:39:47,740 --> 00:39:51,520
And then I got all these press releases I have to deal with, but it was a good, uh,

751
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:52,720
good piece of gonzo journalism.

752
00:39:52,720 --> 00:39:53,040
Anyways.

753
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:59,540
Uh, so I, I wrote one that was, um, essentially, I don't know, my, my final writing down of

754
00:39:59,540 --> 00:40:04,420
how we came to this, like DevOps cloud native native world, kind of starting in the, uh, starting

755
00:40:04,420 --> 00:40:06,040
with extreme programming, I guess.

756
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:10,500
I mean, there's obviously an obligatory mention of the mythical man month, because, uh, you know,

757
00:40:10,980 --> 00:40:14,280
if, if you're waiting for this article to finish, it's to ensure its quality.

758
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:15,900
Uh, so you got to mention that.

759
00:40:15,900 --> 00:40:20,720
And then, and then just sort of the idea of how, uh, how essentially this thread from,

760
00:40:20,720 --> 00:40:25,260
uh, from extreme programming and a little bit of the clue train manifesto, and then the,

761
00:40:25,260 --> 00:40:30,560
uh, the, uh, the old yield democratization, uh, that happens in businesses of the internet,

762
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:35,380
but more importantly, that era of the internet where, uh, Twitter was always going down and

763
00:40:35,380 --> 00:40:39,340
people had to figure out how to keep things up and running and yet release features and

764
00:40:39,340 --> 00:40:45,060
how that, how that got sucked, so to speak, into the enterprise, uh, because public cloud

765
00:40:45,060 --> 00:40:46,340
and other cloud things were available.

766
00:40:46,340 --> 00:40:52,160
And, and now how, how we have, uh, people focusing on let's, let's release the software more frequently

767
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:56,100
and, and let's improve the features and make it so that we have programmable businesses.

768
00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:01,760
And, uh, you know, the, the headline they gave it was a little weird because I think I was

769
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:06,300
arguing that like people do matter, but I don't know.

770
00:41:06,500 --> 00:41:06,640
Right.

771
00:41:06,780 --> 00:41:10,440
I should go back and reread it a third time because to be honest, I'm never really sure

772
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:11,740
what I wrote when I said it.

773
00:41:13,060 --> 00:41:17,160
Well, I know when I finished reading it, like that felt different than what the headline said,

774
00:41:17,300 --> 00:41:19,040
but it was, it was still good.

775
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:19,440
Yeah.

776
00:41:19,540 --> 00:41:24,260
I'm pretty good at like speaking out of like, uh, the multiple dimensions of my mouth and

777
00:41:24,260 --> 00:41:28,640
saying the same conflicting things, but yeah, yeah, I, I think it's an all right piece.

778
00:41:28,720 --> 00:41:32,380
So then there was another one that I think I came out with since last we talked that was,

779
00:41:32,540 --> 00:41:38,260
um, I finally took the effort to write down, uh, what, what I've been finding enterprise architects

780
00:41:38,260 --> 00:41:40,400
do, uh, in, in a DevOps world.

781
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:44,420
I mean, it's, it's, I didn't really say cloud native cause that's, uh, you know, DevOps is

782
00:41:44,420 --> 00:41:47,360
a little more broader for the audience there, but it, it applies the same.

783
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:52,280
I mean, you know, I've since given this talk a few times now, I think, including in, uh,

784
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:58,140
in Latvia and, uh, yeah, I think, I think the general, like, I guess there's probably about,

785
00:41:58,300 --> 00:41:59,440
about three points, right?

786
00:41:59,500 --> 00:42:02,120
One that, that architects still need to drive strategy.

787
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:06,260
And two, there's this platform we were talking about earlier, and someone's got to be like

788
00:42:06,260 --> 00:42:12,800
the product manager of that and even come up with the idea to, uh, well, you know, basically

789
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:14,160
be the product manager of it.

790
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:18,320
And, and then third, uh, from talking with some of our customers and other people, like,

791
00:42:18,780 --> 00:42:23,760
um, I don't know, EA should be doing this, but I, I think, I think one of the things that

792
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:29,200
they need to do more of is, is basically, uh, finding and testing out new technologies that

793
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:31,560
they introduce into the, uh, the organization.

794
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:37,280
And I think in some of our, not all of them, but in some of our more impressive customers,

795
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:42,560
you see that the enterprise architects end up doing that a lot in addition to like governance

796
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:43,340
stuff that they do.

797
00:42:43,340 --> 00:42:46,860
But so, so there, there's, uh, there's that piece.

798
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:48,260
That's one of my regular columns.

799
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:54,040
And, uh, I don't know, like I said, I, I often forget what I wrote once I send it in, but

800
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,600
they're, they're, they're good summaries of, uh, those areas that I've been looking into

801
00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:58,100
recently.

802
00:42:58,800 --> 00:42:59,120
Yeah.

803
00:42:59,280 --> 00:42:59,960
No, I like that one.

804
00:43:00,060 --> 00:43:03,460
Again, we're doing a lot of research from when we first started talking about this at

805
00:43:03,460 --> 00:43:04,240
the beginning of the summer.

806
00:43:04,240 --> 00:43:06,400
So it was cool to see some of that come together.

807
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:09,460
And as usual, the commenters calling you a, an insane hippie.

808
00:43:09,460 --> 00:43:09,940
That's right.

809
00:43:10,060 --> 00:43:10,720
Insane hippie.

810
00:43:10,900 --> 00:43:11,840
Is that, is that one of them?

811
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:13,680
I don't know about this time.

812
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:14,000
Yeah.

813
00:43:14,100 --> 00:43:14,360
Yeah.

814
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:14,720
Yeah.

815
00:43:14,780 --> 00:43:20,400
I, I, I've, I've fully adopted the, uh, you know, I'm, I'm basically, uh, a cross between

816
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:26,040
Martin Friedman and, uh, you know, that, that Steve Bong guy in the onion loaded up on Valium.

817
00:43:26,220 --> 00:43:28,360
I think, I think that's a good, that sounds relaxing.

818
00:43:29,140 --> 00:43:29,860
It's great.

819
00:43:30,020 --> 00:43:30,580
So we'll see it.

820
00:43:30,580 --> 00:43:32,460
We'll see if my most recent column makes it.

821
00:43:32,460 --> 00:43:37,560
Cause I think I characterize myself as, uh, you know, freedmanning amongst conference rooms,

822
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:39,240
just like a taxi in India.

823
00:43:39,460 --> 00:43:40,540
I love that.

824
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:42,440
Uh, so, uh, what was I going to mention?

825
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,420
Uh, well, I've forgotten, but whatever.

826
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,920
So, yeah, I think, I think that's, that's essentially what, oh, I know.

827
00:43:49,220 --> 00:43:49,560
I know.

828
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:55,020
Speaking of, speaking of working on this all summer, I think not a day goes by where, where

829
00:43:55,020 --> 00:43:59,020
I, I, I don't remember something you said last year when I finally released my 49 page

830
00:43:59,020 --> 00:44:00,640
PDF was like, what was it?

831
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:04,220
It was something like, yeah, you've been working on that a long time.

832
00:44:06,300 --> 00:44:10,480
So I'm trying to see if I can reduce my release cadence down, uh, but we'll see.

833
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:14,880
I gotta, I gotta write something there that that would be, uh, or publish something that

834
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:15,400
would be handy.

835
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:19,200
We'll see if we can round it up to a whole number, not just 49.

836
00:44:19,380 --> 00:44:24,060
I'll put it in, I'll, I'll go down to the, uh, the lower right-hand side of some chart

837
00:44:24,060 --> 00:44:25,820
and just drag it out some more.

838
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:27,040
So the page goes down.

839
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:30,080
All right.

840
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,880
Well, uh, you got anything else you want to go over before we wrap up?

841
00:44:33,420 --> 00:44:34,380
No, I don't think so.

842
00:44:34,460 --> 00:44:36,820
Again, always keep your eye out for, uh, releases coming.

843
00:44:37,140 --> 00:44:40,580
Coté and I will be back on a more regular schedule with some cool guests coming up here

844
00:44:40,580 --> 00:44:40,960
shortly.

845
00:44:41,100 --> 00:44:44,000
And, uh, all the March towards SpringOne.

846
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:46,280
So we'll have some preview shows and things coming up to that as well.

847
00:44:46,620 --> 00:44:46,900
That's right.

848
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:47,280
That's right.

849
00:44:47,340 --> 00:44:49,640
Well, next week I'll be at, uh, DevOps days, Nashville.

850
00:44:49,940 --> 00:44:52,500
If, if you're in that area, you stop by, say hello.

851
00:44:52,580 --> 00:44:53,280
That's always nice.

852
00:44:53,780 --> 00:44:57,900
And, uh, I think one of the only, I, there's probably another DevOps days I'm going to, but

853
00:44:57,900 --> 00:45:03,020
there's also, uh, the FedScoop digital summit, something that I'm going to be on the panel

854
00:45:03,020 --> 00:45:06,780
on in, uh, DC the week after next, uh, if you're in that area.

855
00:45:07,100 --> 00:45:10,960
And, uh, I'm also going to, I'm, um, I think I'm giving the enterprise architecture talk

856
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,780
at a meetup the night before I'll have to put this all in the show notes, but, uh, if

857
00:45:14,780 --> 00:45:17,120
you're in that DC area, just come on by there.

858
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,800
It's about midweek week after next and, uh, check that out.

859
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,680
So with that, with that, this has been another Pivotal Conversations.

860
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,920
If you want to get all the latest episodes, which hopefully will be released more than

861
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:32,240
30 days, uh, between them, but, but maybe that's a reliable release train and you should

862
00:45:32,240 --> 00:45:35,540
just take what you can get, but we'll pretty much put them out weekly.

863
00:45:35,860 --> 00:45:39,200
Uh, you can go to soundcloud.com slash Pivotal Conversations.

864
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:44,720
Now, pretty much every Thursday, we put up some formal show notes over there at pivotal.io

865
00:45:44,720 --> 00:45:45,720
slash podcast.

866
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:49,720
You can look in there for that discount code I mentioned and links to other things in that

867
00:45:49,720 --> 00:45:53,300
conference whose dates I should remember, but I don't, I got it written down here in the

868
00:45:53,300 --> 00:45:54,660
computer, so it'll be fine.

869
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:59,360
And, uh, as always, it's nice if you, uh, share with people that, that you like this podcast,

870
00:45:59,620 --> 00:46:03,240
you know, through all the usual stuff, it's always, it's always nice to be at a conference

871
00:46:03,240 --> 00:46:07,520
and, uh, hear that people listen to this and more importantly, uh, other than making,

872
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:09,860
uh, us feel good about ourselves.

873
00:46:10,220 --> 00:46:10,940
Uh, it's good.

874
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,980
It's a good way to just kind of like start a conversation about, uh, fun computer stuff.

875
00:46:15,020 --> 00:46:16,920
So with that, we'll see everyone next time.

876
00:46:17,060 --> 00:46:17,600
Bye-bye.