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Well, I went camping this weekend, so I wanted to ask you to, well, first, assuming you go camping, if you don't, you can just skip.

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But, like, what's your sort of camping routine?

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What do you do up there?

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What do the campers do?

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Because down here, let me ask a question and then make a statement.

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Down here in Texas, you try not to melt.

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So that is number one.

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You go out there and you don't want to die.

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So you find a swimming hole or whatever, or you just suffer.

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But those are your options.

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And then you might go on a little bit of a hike, look around at things.

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You can fish, stuff like that.

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But what goes on up there in the Pacific Northwest?

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Yeah, I think Jared's a camper, so he can answer.

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I'm not a huge camper.

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My brother, who's nothing like me, lives in Arizona and camps, like, every weekend.

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But that is not my bag.

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Jared, I think you camp, don't you?

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I do camp.

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And it's remarkably similar to what happens in Texas.

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Usually, when we go camping, it's further inland.

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So kind of in the Mount Rainier area where we happen to live by, you want lots of shade.

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You want a swimming hole.

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The swimming holes tend to be really chilly.

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There's one place that we always go to that has just freshly melted glacial water.

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So it's a very brisk swim.

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And you cool off very quickly when you go through that.

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But yeah, shade, swimming hole, same deal.

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That's camping.

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Well, my revelation about this camping trip, other than we were talking before we were recording about me eating fried chicken and what an adventure that was.

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I used to eat that as a kid all the time.

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And I have to say, man, it's probably been, I don't want to say 15, but maybe 10 years since I've had fried chicken.

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It just doesn't come up in my current life.

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But we were there in the hole, right?

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Spring fed, not glacier fed.

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And, you know, just swimming around, having fun.

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And first, there were some, what I could only describe as post-teens.

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I wouldn't call them 20-year-olds, but they were some sort of teens.

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And they were, I don't know what was in these cups, but they were running around with like a, all four of them had like those big 32-ounce fits-in-your-cup holder styrofoam cup from some gas station.

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They looked like they were having fun.

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That's the way to kind of slum camp.

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But then there was this whole big family that came to the, it takes about 20 minutes to walk to the hole in the ground that you swim in.

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And they had like camping chairs and a rolling cooler and all this stuff.

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And they're hanging out.

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And I was like, you see, when you plan for this kind of thing, what you got to do is assume that when you get there, you're going to have fun and ask yourself, what would I want when I'm having fun?

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And I think, I think, you know, if you're obsessed about not melting, you're just thinking about risk avoidance and you're not focusing on when you actually show up there that you're going to want a cooler full of delicious beverages and chairs.

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So I'm going to, I'm going to start on that outlook on life and see what happens.

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That's good advice.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I'm trying, I'm flying with my family today to start vacation right after this podcast.

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And the thought of initially flying with five people, including three kids, made me want to, you know, leave in the middle of the night and not come home.

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But I think to your, your point, some of it, I'm also now woke up this morning and think I'm going to have fun with this, even if it's crazy.

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It's a good way to think versus planning for the negative.

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That's right.

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That's right.

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You don't, you don't want to, you don't want to be like, my plan is I'm going to get on the plane without a parachute, open up the door and leave this vacation.

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I'll try to avoid it.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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You know, I always find, I always find since I, you know, just, just like, just like yourself, I'm sure I travel a lot for work and it's a whole new experience in a good way.

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Traveling with family.

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It's just sort of like, it's cause you know, you're like, you have the whole travel airport thing figured out and then you can just be like, now we're just chilling.

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Right.

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I can't expense this absurdly priced airport meal, but like at the very least I can have fun and I can, I can do what all those other people with their funny rolling backpacks, all the families are doing.

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See what that life is like.

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That's good stuff.

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That's right.

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You wear, you wear those team Coté t-shirts, your whole family.

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And you talk about your group, your group as your family, as a team.

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Man, I'm going to, let me, let me open up OmniFocus and write that one down.

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It's a contextual reminder.

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Print up some t-shirts.

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I always see like one of those families on every vacation through the airport and I don't think I want to be them, but I really admire them.

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Yeah, it's like the McCone Spivak family reunion and like a bright pink shirt that has some saying like, you know, like, you know, make sure Uncle Jerry changes his pants every day.

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Just, oh, Uncle Jerry.

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Anyways, that's, I never went to family reunions much, but, you know, I think reInvent is this week, isn't it?

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Not reInvent.

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They are doing one of their, I think, Amazon kind of events, like roadshow sort of events, and they are announcing some new products today.

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So, yeah, the fall pickup is getting going on new products.

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When is reInvent then?

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And I'll forget it next time.

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I believe it's November.

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November.

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That's not this month at all.

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That's close.

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Yeah.

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So they do little regional shows now.

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That's right.

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I remember there was one in London a little while back, right?

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That was interesting.

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Yeah.

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And, well, first of all, why don't you introduce yourself, guest, just briefly?

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I am Jared Ruckel.

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I'm on the product team here at Pivotal, working a lot with Pivotal Cloud Foundry.

97
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That's right.

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Finds lots of holes to swim in, more or less.

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Well, also, last week, there was the announcement that AWS, I guess, I don't know if finally is the right word, but they finally answered the question, are you going to care about Kubernetes officially?

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And they joined the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, which, as I recall, I don't think they put a hyphen in Cloud Native, but we'll have to go check on that.

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But I thought, you know, I read through a little bit.

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We talked a little bit about it on my other podcast, Software Defined Talk, last week.

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But there wasn't a definitive statement about them being, like, all in on Kubernetes stuff.

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But it was about as definitive – it was definitive minus one.

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They had Adrian over there in his Medium blog being, like, we do all the open source stuff.

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Tons of people run Kubernetes.

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We're going to work on all these projects.

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So that's exciting to see them join that – the old Kubernetes boat.

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Yeah, I mean, foundations are foundations.

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I mean, I think there's, you know, there's value in doing them.

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I think sometimes it's a rite of passage.

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In this case, I think it shows that Amazon's going to spend some time thinking about that.

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But at the same time, I'm sure they still keep a skeptical eye knowing that this does make workloads easier to go to Google.

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But at the same time, there's probably no cloud company, of course, minus Pivotal, that is more attuned to what their customers are asking for than Amazon.

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So they're doing it because their customers are asking for it, not just because they feel like it.

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Yeah, you know, it's also good, like, reading all the press around them joining the CNCF.

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You get a good whirlwind tour of all the projects they have there.

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There's actually a tremendous amount of a big stack that they have.

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So also, I was thinking, you know, I have a little – we did several episodes on my cloud-native enterprise architect odyssey.

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And I'm just going to give a little update.

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I forced myself to have a deadline.

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I have a little five-minute talk I'm giving here in Austin tomorrow, which I think will be a good – basically, I can introduce myself, and then I'll have 30 seconds to say that I'm working on this.

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And then later on this week, at, of all places, an OpenStack meetup, I'm giving a longer talk, so I'll be able to dump everything that I have there.

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And eventually, I'll probably write something up.

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But, you know, I referred to a document I had earlier.

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I think I'm going to go delete all of that, and then I'll start over again with the actual useful content that I've come up with.

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But there's been a lot of people who've talked with me about it, and it's been nice and helpful.

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So, as always, if you still want to talk about what enterprise architects do in a cloud-native world, that would be fun.

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But I think I'll have some actual helpful things to publish.

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Awesome.

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So then I have to admit, I haven't read this low-code article you have.

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What's going on there?

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You know, why do I share links with you if we're not going to read them?

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It's just our whole relationship.

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I like to have a little previewing.

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It's kind of like a sommelier of links.

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Yeah.

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You can describe the woody taste.

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There was a couple of articles last week around the same survey, and it was just talking about low-code.

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And kind of the one take was like, hey, it's doing some good stuff.

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The other take from the new stack was like, hey, through a safe survey, it shows like a lot of people have checked out low-code platforms and then moved on.

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So is that kind of just peaked, stagnant, what have you?

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And, you know, there was some Twitter engagement after I had shared that, and it was good stuff.

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And I just think it's an interesting conversation because Pivotal's partners with Mendix and Pega and some other platforms, the whole point of them is how do I have developers writing less code and building these apps quicker?

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Because many times these are just very data-driven apps.

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You know, think force.com.

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Think these interfaces where I have kind of a data schema, and I build out some interfaces to collect that data or process that data.

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So they're not as crazy as a custom streaming app I'm going to build in Spring Boot, but they also solve a lot of problems.

149
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So, you know, they've been around for a while.

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I personally haven't seen them kind of get over that hump of being totally mainstream and, you know, regular professional developers breaking them out.

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But they seem to have also found a successful niche.

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So I didn't know, Coté, in your world, if you come across this sort of space much and if they've just kind of occupied the spot they're in, and that's where they're going to stay versus kind of taking off or exploding.

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So now low-code is, that's like the notion, as you were just, that's the phrase for it, right?

154
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Like you're doing a low-code style approach.

155
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Right.

156
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Yeah, yeah.

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I mean, I always think of these as, I mean, especially in y'all's neck of the wood.

158
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You used to have a RAD development, which is, it's so sad.

159
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We don't use that acronym anymore, but you're.

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I know, it's a shame.

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You're rapid application development.

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And, you know, at one point when my wife was working for the ACLU of Texas, they had, I used FileMaker, which is fun.

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And I don't know if that counts as low-code or RAD, but it sure felt like it.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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That was the first thing I learned, Don, back in the 90s.

166
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Yeah, yeah.

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It was, it was, it was a good lesson in something they should teach in Computer Science 101, which is never volunteer to write code for anyone.

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That's, that's going to go poorly for you.

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But, you know, they, they had this thing where you could, there's complaints in prisons and you could submit.

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There was a, there was a form and they would get, there was this web application to get dumped to a MySQL database.

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And then you get the CSV file and load it up into FileMaker.

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And then all the lawyers there can process it.

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And it was, I think if I actually knew how to, ironically, very ironically, right?

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Like if I knew how to use FileMaker, it would have been really easy to do because the main sticking point being, and, and, you know, I'll get to more of the modern day, but the main sticking point being that like FileMaker has this, I mean, it's a database, but I was like a highfalutin Java developer at the time.

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And like, it's not an SQL database.

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So I like, I just couldn't wrap my head around it.

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It was one of those, like, it's the same way that if you spend too much time in Excel and you used to be a program, you're like, how does Excel think?

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Like, how does it arrange data?

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And, and like, I could never figure out in FileMaker how to really do that.

180
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But anyways, yeah, it was really useful.

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Like, I think, and to your point, like Mendix is a good example of this.

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And I think like the, probably most of the first generation of, of platform as a service, like you're saying, like Salesforce and like Intuit with QuickBase and other things had this.

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It was basically like a low codish, maybe medium code way of extending out the platform.

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And it does, I mean, this kind of, and I think Gartner sometimes is, it's related to citizen developers and stuff like that.

185
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And it is, it is a curious phenomena that aside from Excel and maybe whatever people do in Tableau and Quick nowadays and kind of BI stuff, like it's interesting that it hasn't spread more.

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I don't know, like it feels like, it feels like conceptually and not by volume, but maybe the apex was like HyperCard and, and, and Fox Pro and all that stuff.

187
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The nineties was the apex of it.

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And I don't know, I don't know if it's sort of like scaling and manageability problems or whatever,

189
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but it's, it is weird that it hasn't caught on more.

190
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Yeah.

191
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And I don't know if there's some of the, you know, I didn't build it and there's just too much scaffolding and too much opinion.

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And so, I mean, some of these platforms have extended to allow for you to, you know, write some custom code in there as well.

193
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But yeah, I don't know if it's just sort of the, you know, that's not good enough for me.

194
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I like just jumping down and building compilers or, you know, more importantly, I just like building my custom apps.

195
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And I don't like your constraints.

196
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So yeah, I mean, they're really, some of them are very compelling platforms are very useful.

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And I don't know, I don't love debugging code and doing really boiling, boring boilerplate stuff.

198
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But yeah, I just, I've just never seen it go beyond the, you know, business analyst set or citizen developer set into mainstream.

199
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I mean, I guess there are, like, I often think that a lot of, not to affect our monthly compensation with an idea like this or anything, but I have to think a lot of the custom application development tasks that companies have could be taken care of with a pretty good Google form.

200
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Right.

201
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But on the other hand, there is, you know, with those, those talk about that sort of like, you know, bottom of the barrel code.

202
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But what that tends to lack is kind of like workflow stuff.

203
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Like you often need like so much of what you do in organizations with something like this is I want to collect some data, as they say, enrich it.

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I want to monkey around with it.

205
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And then I need some manager to approve it and then it goes to someone else and they do something.

206
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And, you know, that you could, I mean, I think I remember when I was talking with the Mindix people, they get involved in things like that.

207
00:13:56,340 --> 00:13:59,500
But like there's, you can do a lot with just that simple little loop.

208
00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:07,440
And no, and that's a sweet spot for a lot of those systems is that sort of workflow stuff that's hard to necessarily chain together in just your random .NET app.

209
00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,220
Like you can do it, but there's a lot of stuff you have to do.

210
00:14:10,300 --> 00:14:13,480
So there's a lot of value in the workflow stuff or the hyper data driven stuff.

211
00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:14,580
And absolutely right.

212
00:14:14,660 --> 00:14:17,860
There's some cases where it's unnecessary to go build your custom app.

213
00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:19,760
Like you really could use platforms like this.

214
00:14:19,780 --> 00:14:27,220
That's why Access had such a long life because anybody could quick sling together something that would capture data and run some quick reports on it, you know, solving problems.

215
00:14:27,620 --> 00:14:27,640
Yeah.

216
00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:27,980
Yeah.

217
00:14:28,060 --> 00:14:29,360
You know, the closing it out.

218
00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,980
It was interesting when I did that FileMaker thing to find out they were owned by Apple.

219
00:14:33,260 --> 00:14:35,740
It's a very, very, I guess it makes sense.

220
00:14:35,740 --> 00:14:42,140
But in that I bet FileMaker is relatively small and drives a lot of Apple customers.

221
00:14:42,380 --> 00:14:45,180
But it's a strange little thing to learn about.

222
00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:49,300
So now back to the high code and the highest of the high code.

223
00:14:49,460 --> 00:14:52,260
There were also, I think, you know, you pulled together two of them.

224
00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:59,360
But I remember looking this up for another one of my podcasts where we go on about white papers, ironically, for the topic of this show.

225
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:06,120
But I think there were like four hype cycles that came out last week that were related to like application development, right?

226
00:15:06,180 --> 00:15:07,400
Or at least three or something.

227
00:15:07,500 --> 00:15:10,720
But there was the application infrastructure and integration.

228
00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:12,700
There's a good name there.

229
00:15:13,140 --> 00:15:15,520
And then you got your normal application development one.

230
00:15:15,580 --> 00:15:17,280
I think there was a PaaS one too, right?

231
00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:18,820
Or did they shift it in one of these two?

232
00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:20,220
PaaS was mixed into some of these.

233
00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:21,120
There might have been another one.

234
00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:22,280
There was just a flurry of them.

235
00:15:22,300 --> 00:15:23,520
And these two stood out to me.

236
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:23,740
Yeah.

237
00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:25,180
Always pretty useful.

238
00:15:25,620 --> 00:15:25,880
Yeah.

239
00:15:26,060 --> 00:15:26,660
No, these are good.

240
00:15:26,660 --> 00:15:35,820
But it's always good to get fresh analyst meat for the presentations, for your King Ranch casseroles or your just pot roast, whatever you're working on.

241
00:15:36,540 --> 00:15:45,200
But, yeah, like hype cycles are fun because they're really – you can read them really quickly or you can read them really slowly.

242
00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,960
They're usually like, what, 40, 50 pages, if I remember?

243
00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:49,440
Because I got to go over all this stuff.

244
00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:49,640
Yeah, look at this bad boy.

245
00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:50,860
One of them is 67.

246
00:15:50,940 --> 00:15:51,860
The other one is 59.

247
00:15:52,140 --> 00:15:52,800
So, I mean, they're big.

248
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,560
But like you said, there's the quick kind of at a glance.

249
00:15:55,780 --> 00:16:02,040
Okay, what is at the peak of inflated expectations, which is like the title of my autobiography.

250
00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:02,460
Yeah.

251
00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:07,840
And then you have the trough of disillusionment for like, oh, gosh, this thing was so overhyped.

252
00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:08,740
I didn't want to use it.

253
00:16:08,900 --> 00:16:12,280
And then you hit that graceful slope of enlightenment where eventually you get value.

254
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:14,000
And so it's good to read through those.

255
00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:19,840
And then I actually like in those hype cycles, they have a comparison table that says, here's the sort of thing I'm looking for.

256
00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:21,640
And here's the years to the mainstream adoption.

257
00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,020
So it's not even just that this thing's crazy hyped.

258
00:16:24,140 --> 00:16:32,720
It's, hey, you're probably five to 10 years away from bots in this example, or event-driven programming models, or crowd testing, or things like that.

259
00:16:32,740 --> 00:16:39,540
But, hey, less than two years away is things like citizen developers, per our previous conversation, or responsive design or functional programming.

260
00:16:39,700 --> 00:16:41,700
So I like being able to also map it that way.

261
00:16:41,700 --> 00:16:48,120
That's helpful if you're a CIO thinking about where do I put my chips maybe right now for R&D stuff for what things are coming.

262
00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:54,460
Now, in y'all's experience, how accurate – I mean, accuracy is the wrong word.

263
00:16:54,760 --> 00:17:02,660
I mean, you kind of went over useful, but like what y'all's experience was sort of like using it in that way that you were just talking about, Richard, where you're trying to time things out.

264
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,760
Like, do you have any examples you remember where it worked out well or didn't work out well?

265
00:17:07,860 --> 00:17:11,640
Yeah, I mean, we go back to our nine-episode series on enterprise architecture.

266
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:21,240
I think back in those days, things like this would be handy when it would be, okay, what kind of projects do we want to put something in the budget next year to just do some POC stuff?

267
00:17:21,300 --> 00:17:24,960
Or call in some vendors to mess around with service-oriented architecture in that time?

268
00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:31,160
Or we were doing some mashup technology, and I would go off and explore mashups for a month and write up a summary.

269
00:17:31,380 --> 00:17:35,340
So this kind of helps you at least think about what are those trends that maybe I'm not seeing.

270
00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:45,020
Or even conversely, if something has just hype peak expectations, maybe do we talk ourselves off the ledge from doing like all in on this thing right now because maybe we're just overhyping it.

271
00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:50,120
So I had some experience in the architecture team using this to grade out the future a little bit.

272
00:17:50,120 --> 00:17:51,340
How about yourself, Jared?

273
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:55,060
You had any good relationships with the hype cycle in the past?

274
00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:58,180
It's a good question.

275
00:17:58,340 --> 00:18:03,000
I think that they're a really good snapshot point in time, your sense of guidance.

276
00:18:03,100 --> 00:18:12,440
I'm not sure if anybody's actually done the cartoon flip book kind of comparison to see how they change and evolve over time and how historically accurate they are.

277
00:18:12,540 --> 00:18:18,760
But I think really what the market wants and what it needs is kind of this temperature check about where all these different things are.

278
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,100
And so it's a really useful tool for that current state.

279
00:18:22,100 --> 00:18:30,340
I don't know if you're going to gain any super awesome competitive advantage as an IT firm by using it as gospel.

280
00:18:30,660 --> 00:18:38,680
But like Richard mentioned, it's probably a pretty good tool to help allocate your spend where you want to hedge your bets and mess around with things, look more closely at things too.

281
00:18:39,180 --> 00:18:39,700
Yeah, yeah.

282
00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:47,880
Well, so just looking at the application development one, I see that so far my favorite phrase on it is post-scrum methodologies.

283
00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:49,560
I saw that one.

284
00:18:49,900 --> 00:18:51,020
I like that.

285
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,780
That sounds like something a therapist might be advising you about.

286
00:18:55,280 --> 00:19:02,460
But, you know, it looks like in general, PaaS frameworks, they're climbing out of the trough of disillusionment.

287
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:04,280
So that's a good sign.

288
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:11,820
But then I guess AD PaaS, I forget my 30 categories of PaaS, but I think that might be application development PaaS.

289
00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:12,320
You're right.

290
00:19:12,500 --> 00:19:12,920
You're right.

291
00:19:12,980 --> 00:19:14,020
I had to look that one up too.

292
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:19,380
So that's just about to strike bottom and bounce off towards the top there.

293
00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:20,160
So that's good.

294
00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:20,700
That's good.

295
00:19:21,220 --> 00:19:22,100
Things are going well.

296
00:19:23,300 --> 00:19:30,540
But yeah, I mean, it is like, and then I still don't really know what reactive programming is, despite making many people explain it to me.

297
00:19:30,660 --> 00:19:33,240
But it looks like, let's see if I can pull this joke off.

298
00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:35,840
The back pressure is driving it down the curve.

299
00:19:35,900 --> 00:19:36,360
Is that right?

300
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:37,240
Did I get that one?

301
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:38,420
Well played.

302
00:19:38,580 --> 00:19:38,840
Okay.

303
00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:39,300
Thank you.

304
00:19:39,340 --> 00:19:39,780
Thank you.

305
00:19:40,140 --> 00:19:42,640
And yeah, but this one's pretty good.

306
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:48,940
It's also, to add to it, I mean, y'all both said this, but it is a good overview of all the hipster stuff out there.

307
00:19:49,020 --> 00:19:58,900
I think, you know, I haven't seen a Forrester Wave in a long time, unfortunately, but like the ThoughtWorks also puts out an annual, like, I think it's a spiral of all things.

308
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,060
They're going all, how do you say that guy's name?

309
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:01,640
Boheme?

310
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:03,200
They're going all spiral on it.

311
00:20:03,780 --> 00:20:10,160
But that one's also a good sort of lay of the land, if you will, that they do.

312
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:15,520
But when y'all look across these hype cycles, what's getting your gizzard all jiggly?

313
00:20:16,620 --> 00:20:21,000
Well, I mean, it's nice to see, trying to get that visual out of my head.

314
00:20:21,300 --> 00:20:27,440
The microservices at the top of the peak inflated expectations, which is not a surprise.

315
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:29,840
I have no idea what project management bots are.

316
00:20:29,940 --> 00:20:33,100
So these things are always humbling because I don't even know what some of these things are.

317
00:20:33,300 --> 00:20:34,080
So that's always good.

318
00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:39,640
I think they're probably like, you're in Slack, and they're like, hello, have you filled out your TPS report?

319
00:20:40,220 --> 00:20:41,100
What is your status?

320
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,240
I don't know if that's worthy of being on the hype cycle, but that's fine.

321
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:47,120
But then also function paths, right?

322
00:20:47,380 --> 00:20:49,860
Function as a service, serverless, also at the peak.

323
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:54,160
So that's the Gartner phrase for serverless, then, function paths, right?

324
00:20:54,340 --> 00:20:54,640
F paths.

325
00:20:55,180 --> 00:20:57,000
Container management, those sort of things.

326
00:20:57,100 --> 00:20:59,280
So not surprising at all that those are at the peak.

327
00:20:59,340 --> 00:21:09,380
I think it's actually good to see that because it can remind you again that our kind of echo chamber bubble of tech sometimes, we get hyped up about tech that's still multiple years away from mainstream.

328
00:21:09,380 --> 00:21:23,160
And then, as you said, the things that maybe you see as a little boring, like in-memory data grids or traditional database platforms or application platform as a service are now in this sort of, hey, we know what we're doing with these now and are actually productive part of the slope.

329
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:35,800
Yeah, the other thing I recall reading, I need to go back and reread these more formally, is that private paths is in there as kind of an official thing, which that probably has happened sometime over the past year.

330
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,020
But that's nice that that's in there.

331
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,240
That hasn't been in Gartner land for a long time.

332
00:21:40,860 --> 00:21:51,100
Yeah, it's kind of curious looking to see that iPaaS, integration paths, is about to hit the bottom here because it seems like that's been around for a long time.

333
00:21:51,100 --> 00:21:54,600
So it's all upside for Boomi from now on.

334
00:21:55,820 --> 00:21:56,400
That's it.

335
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,480
Well, there's just been so many vendors now.

336
00:21:59,540 --> 00:22:01,600
I think there's like 80 or 90 that Gartner's tracking.

337
00:22:01,780 --> 00:22:05,600
So I think there's just been that explosion of them, which is why you had that inflated expectations.

338
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:06,760
Now you'll see some consolidation.

339
00:22:07,140 --> 00:22:09,100
Now you'll see some more tight use cases get defined.

340
00:22:09,380 --> 00:22:09,540
Yeah.

341
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:10,620
How about yourself, Jared?

342
00:22:10,940 --> 00:22:12,100
What do you like here?

343
00:22:12,980 --> 00:22:20,460
You know, what's really fascinating about this, I wonder if there's some sort of master reconciliation of these cycles within,

344
00:22:20,460 --> 00:22:25,520
within Gartner, because you've got microservices infrastructure at this really innovation area,

345
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:31,400
but then microservices are kind of at the peak and just sort of how all these different things, you know, interrelate to each other.

346
00:22:31,540 --> 00:22:38,520
I'm sort of, you know, amazed at these things that sound kind of similar or at least adjacent categories can be so all over the place.

347
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:48,540
And I guess that's a little bit of what, you know, Gartner's role to play is in all of this as a intermediary between, you know, buyers and vendors to help this, you know, sort of matchmaking dance make a little bit more sense.

348
00:22:50,780 --> 00:22:51,100
Yeah.

349
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:55,340
No, I think that interrelation stuff's interesting because as you say, many of these things are not an island.

350
00:22:55,460 --> 00:22:56,900
Actually, arguably none of them are.

351
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:02,560
So just because this thing is peaking, does that mean something else is less relevant or that sort of thing?

352
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:04,040
So yeah, it's fascinating to see the interplay.

353
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,800
Yeah, it's a very detailed breakout of everything.

354
00:23:08,820 --> 00:23:16,560
Well, speaking of detailed breakouts, so we're having you on, Jared, because you, well, there's two parts of this.

355
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:22,760
One is you helped Shepard co-author, like I think this was last week, we released four new white papers.

356
00:23:23,460 --> 00:23:23,920
Is that right?

357
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:24,940
Four or is it three?

358
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:26,560
It's four.

359
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,800
So that's the definitive answer to what I did on my summer vacation.

360
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:30,420
That's right.

361
00:23:30,780 --> 00:23:31,180
Exactly.

362
00:23:31,500 --> 00:23:31,900
Exactly.

363
00:23:31,900 --> 00:23:41,420
And then I was rereading the blog post and you were like, these are our first four, which implies there are other bundles out there, which will be amazing.

364
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:42,460
That'll be great.

365
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:50,560
And so, you know, I thought it'd be good to have you come on and just kind of go over what these four are and just highlight them a little bit.

366
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,940
Obviously, we don't have time to detail that or everything, but it is.

367
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,000
I mean, I think it's exciting.

368
00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:11,880
I was excited when I saw that because I remember when I was first at Pivotal almost three years ago now, we were talking with some government agency and I got this this odd request where someone at the end of the meeting was like, oh, can you just send me all the all the white papers you have?

369
00:24:12,220 --> 00:24:14,780
And I was I was I was said, like, well, you know, on what topic?

370
00:24:14,780 --> 00:24:17,680
And they're like, no, no, just send me all your white papers.

371
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,640
And like it was kind of an interesting request.

372
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:24,960
But I thought about it and like, you know, I like collecting white papers.

373
00:24:25,140 --> 00:24:28,100
Like I was saying, I have a whole podcast where we just talk about white papers.

374
00:24:28,100 --> 00:24:31,640
But it is I think it's nice to have white papers.

375
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:32,620
And I've read through these.

376
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:40,480
These are these are a lot more Redbook white paper than even number of printable glossy sheet white paper, which is great.

377
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,720
So they're actually they're good ones.

378
00:24:42,780 --> 00:24:44,600
But how many how many you have planned out?

379
00:24:44,780 --> 00:24:45,380
What's in the pipe?

380
00:24:45,740 --> 00:24:48,700
You know, we're very XP ish around here.

381
00:24:48,700 --> 00:24:52,360
So I don't want you to make any promises of dates other than the future.

382
00:24:52,820 --> 00:24:54,040
You see what evolves.

383
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,500
But like what else do you have in the works before we get to the ones you have?

384
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:04,040
Yeah, there's I think there's probably about five or six more in the offing that will get out there.

385
00:25:04,120 --> 00:25:06,720
So we're not not quite at the at the halfway point here.

386
00:25:07,260 --> 00:25:08,980
So what are what are the four you have?

387
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,520
Give us an overview and then we'll go through them.

388
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:13,040
Sure.

389
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,820
So we've got I think really this to maybe kind of start off with.

390
00:25:16,820 --> 00:25:25,740
It's a little bit like the government agency interaction that you were describing there, their Coté, where we've got this constellation of content that we do, you know, at Pivotal.

391
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:30,040
And there's a lot of curation, a lot of generation that we do with that content.

392
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,220
And there's always learning that goes on.

393
00:25:32,220 --> 00:25:41,480
And we identify a handful of gaps that are really there in terms of how we work with customers and and position your Pivotal Cloud Foundry.

394
00:25:41,900 --> 00:25:44,160
So there were a handful of topics that were identified.

395
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,960
And so we started with, you know, four of them to start off with.

396
00:25:47,340 --> 00:25:50,240
And so we've got one on PCI compliance.

397
00:25:50,340 --> 00:26:01,060
So for all the folks out there that handle payment processing, credit card data and they want to improve how they do software, the PCI one will be interesting for them.

398
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:08,600
We've also got one on Bosch, really kind of a 101 on that open source distributed tool chain.

399
00:26:09,180 --> 00:26:12,960
And then we've got one on how to run microservices on Pivotal Cloud Foundry.

400
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,300
There's a lot of stuff that we've written in the past about microservices architectures in general.

401
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:22,200
So let's get a little bit more specific about PCF as a target platform for those.

402
00:26:22,940 --> 00:26:33,680
And then lastly, we've got kind of an introduction to continuous integration, continuous delivery metrics, what to look for, how to get started, practical advice around that.

403
00:26:33,900 --> 00:26:37,880
So that one in particular is pretty product neutral.

404
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:42,080
It's really more about the category of process and tooling that exists out there.

405
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,560
Yeah, that one, as I was looking through it as fun, you had some metrics to track.

406
00:26:46,840 --> 00:27:00,840
I think metrics in like all newfangled cloud native stuff is always interesting because they're always everyone, you know, always about whatever you want to call cycle lead, whatever, however technical you want to get time, time to actually do something.

407
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,100
Think about it and do it and deliver it is interesting.

408
00:27:04,260 --> 00:27:08,000
But you had some other, some novel new ones in there that were pretty good.

409
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:22,380
Like I think if I'm remembering right, the one that I thought was good was the not only time to do a build, but maybe time to like run all the tests and validate, time to validate the build, as I recall, which is, that's a fun sort of internal metric to track.

410
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,920
Because I would assume you'd like to get that down as much as possible to be shorter.

411
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,880
Yeah, and really it's a practical exercise.

412
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:40,840
You know, I think that a lot of us that you spend time on, on Twitter, we all kind of see the cloud or Roddy talking about, you know, things with CICD and moving quickly and all this stuff.

413
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:49,900
But you got to help, you know, a lot of enterprises still connect the dots with how they go from kind of work backwards from being awesome at software to where they're at today.

414
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:54,880
And so a lot of customers would, would tell us, okay, how do I measure this?

415
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:55,840
What do I do?

416
00:27:55,940 --> 00:27:57,300
How do I know if I'm getting better?

417
00:27:57,540 --> 00:28:02,140
So there's kind of a practical, you know, strain of, of detail throughout all these.

418
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:03,880
And I think that's a good example that you hit on.

419
00:28:04,460 --> 00:28:04,540
Yeah.

420
00:28:04,620 --> 00:28:04,780
Yeah.

421
00:28:04,780 --> 00:28:13,280
I mean, specifically, you know, you, uh, Coté mentioned, these aren't like two page glossies, but they're also not, you know, 120 page book page manifestos.

422
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:15,300
Like they're in that, I guess that sweet spot.

423
00:28:15,580 --> 00:28:21,840
Uh, so, I mean, who wrote these conceptually, like who was the audience and what was the point of, of cranking these out?

424
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:32,440
Yeah, the, it was really, you know, I think we have a unique sales process here, you know, at pivotal and we've got the audacious goal of transforming how the world, you know, build software.

425
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:50,820
And you don't do that by having the customer swipe a credit card and, you know, accept a click through agreement, you know, so a lot of times the sales process or almost every time with the sales process is, you know, our team of account executives, platform architects, um, getting embedded with the customer for, you know, three, six, nine months.

426
00:28:50,820 --> 00:29:02,060
A lot of the time, really understanding what's going on in that customer's environment, understanding, you know, what their landscape looks like, what their culture's like, what the application architecture's like, what business goals they have.

427
00:29:02,620 --> 00:29:12,080
And so as a result of that, you know, deep collaboration, you kind of identify some key things that the customer wants to, wants to know in order to get better at, at doing software.

428
00:29:12,460 --> 00:29:23,560
So this was an effort by a lot of the platform architects who, you know, most of whom have, you know, a couple of decades experience in, you know, IT and business and helping the customers, you know, achieve their, their business goals.

429
00:29:23,780 --> 00:29:33,600
They wanted to sit down and address, you know, some of these, um, really burning technical topics that didn't quite fit in, uh, neatly with the existing content that we have at, at pivotal.

430
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:41,220
So it came from, from that group, um, and it was really meant to address, you know, the, the technical, you know, buying cycle of, of enterprises.

431
00:29:41,220 --> 00:29:49,200
So you've got your, you know, application developers, you've got, you know, operators, um, you've got enterprise architects, which, uh, we were just talking about a little bit earlier.

432
00:29:49,420 --> 00:29:52,540
And then you've got, you know, the security and compliance teams as well.

433
00:29:52,540 --> 00:29:58,960
And, you know, very little happens in enterprise IT, uh, as a system of record without security and compliance teams getting on board.

434
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:04,140
So, um, a whole range of buyers, uh, should hopefully find some useful information in the series.

435
00:30:04,780 --> 00:30:05,180
Yeah.

436
00:30:05,260 --> 00:30:10,980
I know one thing I noticed when, uh, I mean, I guess documentation always seems to trail, obviously, product maturity.

437
00:30:10,980 --> 00:30:15,540
I mean, on one hand, when we were asked about this, it was like, gosh, how do we not already have some of these papers?

438
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:20,420
And you just realize that over time, you do need to build up this stable of actual best practices.

439
00:30:20,420 --> 00:30:29,440
I remember one of our senior cloud foundry directors mentioned last week that, you know, we were selling the version 1.0 of PCF and they were asking for best practice documentation.

440
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:30,980
I was like, we haven't even shipped this thing yet.

441
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,620
I don't know what the good, any practices are of this.

442
00:30:33,660 --> 00:30:37,220
So now we're, you know, years into PCF and have these things in place.

443
00:30:37,220 --> 00:30:44,800
Did you feel like as we were putting this together, this is actually did have some of that kind of battle earned experience that we're trying to pass on here?

444
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:46,900
I think so.

445
00:30:46,900 --> 00:30:51,820
And, you know, two years in, you know, cloud native platforms is a, is a long time.

446
00:30:51,820 --> 00:31:01,920
And, you know, that was one of the things that struck me as we were going through the papers is the depth and the rigor behind, you know, the platform in a lot of ways.

447
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:21,320
If you look at, you know, going down to the very guts of the cloud provider interface, you know, with, with Bosch through the different, you know, four layers of HA, the platform provides to how you can run microservices for Java and for .NET, you know, to how you can, you know, start to think about, you know, meeting these, you know, really onerous, you know, compliance rules.

448
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:27,280
There's a whole, you know, slew of things in there that the platform, you know, has a pretty decent answer for.

449
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:29,560
So that was one of the things that, that definitely struck me.

450
00:31:29,580 --> 00:31:35,400
And again, it's not coming from, you know, somebody that is a, is a purely, you know, communications type of role.

451
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:41,360
These are platform architects who have, you know, done hands on keyboard alongside our customers to help make these things real.

452
00:31:41,580 --> 00:31:46,440
So again, there's a kind of this, you know, authentic, you know, actionable spirit throughout what we've tried to write.

453
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:53,420
So just to delve into the content a little bit, I'll pick on the, on the first one I wrote down.

454
00:31:53,420 --> 00:31:57,280
So in the, in the PCI one, so, so just, just give us a gist.

455
00:31:57,660 --> 00:31:59,440
There's, there's always two things with compliance.

456
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,420
One is like, so what do you actually need to do?

457
00:32:04,660 --> 00:32:11,160
And, and then, and then like give a brief overview of like how, how like the pivotal stack of stuff helps out with that.

458
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:19,640
Yeah, with, with PCI and compliance, like you say, it's, it always is, is very tricky and it's a mix of, you know, product.

459
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:21,400
It's a mix of people.

460
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:22,760
It's a mix of tools.

461
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:24,580
It's a mix of, of process.

462
00:32:25,260 --> 00:32:42,980
And so, you know, in that particular, you know, paper, you know, John Field, the author who lives and breathed this stuff, you know, goes through, I think the, the 12 major requirement areas of, of PCI and how the platform is affected by it, or in some cases not affected.

463
00:32:42,980 --> 00:33:07,640
So it goes down into, you know, how you want to configure, you know, firewall rules to ensure certain levels of isolation and segmentation to getting into things about how you think about the, the platform can do auditing and logging and do, you know, access who's, you know, drilled into what, who's access what subsystems to how this, how the platform can actually do things like, you know, patching.

464
00:33:08,500 --> 00:33:16,880
There's, I think a, a kind of a unique quirk in PCI where it says, you know, have a, have a documented process and then follow that process.

465
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:18,920
That's kind of what the instruction is.

466
00:33:19,500 --> 00:33:30,060
And so in the paper, it talks about where that comes into play for Cloud Foundry, how it can support that particular process with kind of a bare minimum of, of manual intervention.

467
00:33:30,060 --> 00:33:36,080
And you want to be, you know, automated whenever you're talking about establishing a process and then following it.

468
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,260
And I think there's a lot of that, you know, technical depth in that paper too.

469
00:33:39,660 --> 00:33:39,680
Yeah.

470
00:33:39,740 --> 00:33:44,680
I don't, I don't know if this is an early draft, but I remember reading over maybe a year, year and a half ago.

471
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:49,180
And I think it was by him, like a, like a PCI sort of white paper that we had floating around.

472
00:33:49,180 --> 00:34:00,920
And, and it was great because, because, uh, you know, most of my, my sort of like, uh, computer nerd career life, uh, to word salad it out.

473
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,500
Uh, like, you know, everyone's always like, Ooh, compliance and audit.

474
00:34:04,500 --> 00:34:05,480
And it seems spooky.

475
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:10,700
And I remember reading to that paper and realizing that, Oh, it's just a bunch of tedious work.

476
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:18,560
Like, like, it's not that there's like some magic thing that you need to do or some, like some impossible thing.

477
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:26,100
It's just like, yeah, it's, you just got to go through all this stuff and make sure, you know, like you're saying, like you should probably patch things when there's a security problem.

478
00:34:26,180 --> 00:34:26,620
Right.

479
00:34:26,620 --> 00:34:30,220
And, and like, and then there are, you know, there's other, there's other funny little thing.

480
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:37,960
I mean, from our perspective, being infrastructure, funny things like all your desktop computers should run antivirus software, but, uh, it, it's good.

481
00:34:38,020 --> 00:34:43,820
And it makes me assume that with a lot of other compliance stuff, it, uh, it's equally demystified in the sense of.

482
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:49,740
It's not like, it's not like from a, an agile perspective, there's some compliance out there.

483
00:34:49,740 --> 00:34:52,180
That's basically like, and now wait six months.

484
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:53,840
Right.

485
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,960
Like, like there's, there's no weird onerous stuff in there.

486
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:04,560
It's just a bunch of like things to make sure you're doing, which, which I would imagine, uh, when you get into kind of like a cloud platform stuff.

487
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:09,000
And also when you add a build pipeline to it, you can automate a tremendous amount of this stuff.

488
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:20,280
And more importantly, well, not more importantly, but for some people, you can also automate proving that you're doing it by, uh, well, as long as you trust the system, but you can spit out a lot of what you're doing.

489
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:21,880
That's probably the key, right?

490
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,840
Otherwise it often becomes ceremony or theater like, Oh, we, we check this box.

491
00:35:25,940 --> 00:35:30,920
We, we did this versus like, here's an audit trail that proved what we deployed into production last Tuesday at 2 PM.

492
00:35:31,260 --> 00:35:34,000
You know, here's the credentials we rotated last Thursday.

493
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:40,200
Like that, you know, Jared, I think your point from the paper, I think is key is you have to show what practice, not just, it's not just technical checklist.

494
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:46,260
It's how does this actually hit the spirit of what these things are with PCI or HIPAA or any of these compliance things.

495
00:35:46,260 --> 00:35:48,440
It's how is this actually solving the spirit of it?

496
00:35:48,500 --> 00:35:50,900
Probably in a better way than you were doing it before manually.

497
00:35:51,300 --> 00:35:51,740
Yeah.

498
00:35:51,740 --> 00:36:02,300
And I think that's probably the thing with, with compliance is that it's the conversation is really not one of roadblocks and obstacles the way that maybe it has been historically.

499
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:13,940
But when there's a lot of folks in the boardroom of the company excited about getting better at software, going faster, you're building new revenue streams with, you know, differentiated applications.

500
00:36:13,940 --> 00:36:19,840
It becomes a question of, you know, how can we be compliant and do this?

501
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,120
It's not so much that compliance is a big hurdle.

502
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,280
It's people have an attitude of, I want to help the company get better at software.

503
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,260
We can't, you know, negotiate on compliance.

504
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:30,500
So how does that play into it?

505
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:35,180
So there's a nice, you know, different buying attitude that I think that we've seen the last couple of years here too.

506
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:42,880
And so, you know, since we were speaking of it, so, so you've got the, the CICD paper, the build pipeline paper, if you will.

507
00:36:43,300 --> 00:36:49,220
And, and, you know, I, I, I've, I've been watching this evolve, uh, I guess for about a year or so.

508
00:36:49,220 --> 00:36:59,580
Like, I think, I think while pivotal has been, had some common practices about build pipeline stuff, we've been a lot more vocal about like, this is our, this is our philosophy of build pipeline.

509
00:36:59,580 --> 00:37:12,900
So can you, can you give us a little overview of like, what's in that paper as far as saying like, this is like the, uh, this is what the, the overall pivotal community with its customers and ourselves, like what we think a good build pipeline is and things that we use.

510
00:37:13,300 --> 00:37:15,360
You know, you know, you know, our idea of, you know, our idea of it.

511
00:37:16,780 --> 00:37:29,380
Yeah, I think it's, there's, uh, when we, you think about, you know, CI, CD, you know, the, the important thing is to, you know, understand what the characteristics are of your development, you know, organization.

512
00:37:29,540 --> 00:37:33,980
Is your development organization really focused on, you know, velocity?

513
00:37:34,380 --> 00:37:39,680
Is it a KPI to think about how many releases that you do in a given period of time?

514
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:44,800
Um, and are you deploying things to, you know, multiple infrastructure targets?

515
00:37:45,020 --> 00:37:52,300
That's another thing I think we've seen, uh, be really of, of interest in this, you can sort of be a multi-cloud movement that's come on.

516
00:37:52,820 --> 00:38:03,600
Yeah, so there, there, there are a couple of things if you think about, you know, modern, modern development, you know, microservices, velocity, you know, constant releases, um, many infrastructure targets.

517
00:38:03,780 --> 00:38:15,260
These are all things that, um, have come into focus, I think the last couple of years and that, you know, mimics what we want to do in the open source project that, you know, pivotal sponsors with concourse.

518
00:38:15,420 --> 00:38:21,460
But a lot of these philosophies, you know, really transcend any particular tool and help you take advantage of it.

519
00:38:21,540 --> 00:38:29,300
So I think it's, it's really about understanding your development organization and what's going to be important to you over the next, you know, decade when you think about your build pipeline.

520
00:38:29,740 --> 00:38:41,540
So I, I, I think, uh, well, I think, you know, CICD stuff, specifically CI, continuous integration is one of the, uh, the older schools of thought in application developments.

521
00:38:41,540 --> 00:38:46,460
But I always feel like every time you stared at it for a while, you like learn something new and interesting.

522
00:38:46,460 --> 00:38:57,260
And so I'm curious, maybe this would be a very short answer if the answer is no, but like when you were going over this, did you discover any new, uh, interesting things about build pipelines they hadn't come across or thought of before?

523
00:38:58,620 --> 00:39:13,300
Uh, I think, yeah, the one thing that, that came across was kind of the, the visual nature of, of build pipelines, um, places that I've worked in the, in the past would wire up the build system to, uh, a lamp inside the team room.

524
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:13,920
Right, right.

525
00:39:13,980 --> 00:39:15,800
That was quite the fad for a while.

526
00:39:16,260 --> 00:39:17,040
It was.

527
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:17,260
Yeah.

528
00:39:17,620 --> 00:39:28,040
And so, um, that, that's a nice visual cue because when something goes wrong, everybody knows about it and things get fixed, you know, pretty quickly when there's, you know, red lights in the, in the room.

529
00:39:28,240 --> 00:39:33,620
And with, uh, with what we see people doing with, with concourse, some of them are pivotal customers.

530
00:39:33,720 --> 00:39:35,040
Some of them just use concourse.

531
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:40,960
They've got these huge screens of their build pipelines up there and concourse has a really nice visual treatment there.

532
00:39:41,140 --> 00:39:49,560
And it's not just the, the binary, you know, green for good, red for bad kind of thing with the lamp, but it gives you a lot of really rich detail about what's happening.

533
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,240
And that visual reminder of, you know, what's actually happening with your code.

534
00:39:53,240 --> 00:39:58,960
And when your priority as a business is a ship code, you know, frequently, that's a pretty good thing to have visible for everybody.

535
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:01,100
Yeah, that's, that's, that's interesting.

536
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:10,520
It's, it's kind of like a little bit of a shade of what we were talking about with PCI stuff where it's, uh, it's, it's making the, uh, the unintelligible a little more comprehensible, right?

537
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:17,280
Like it's better than, uh, you know, this really poorly formatted email with probably like a Java stack dump in it.

538
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:19,340
And you've got to figure out what that means.

539
00:40:19,340 --> 00:40:21,800
Like that seemed to be the primary interface for a while.

540
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:23,380
And it is, uh, yeah, that's interesting.

541
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:34,200
And it also like highlights what I'm sure was one of the more delightful and challenging marketing challenge, uh, challenges of the mid 2000s, which was, I have this glowing orb that you can hook up to a USB port.

542
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:36,680
Why would anyone buy this?

543
00:40:39,460 --> 00:40:43,660
I'm sure they sold a lot of those little glowing orbs and cats based on pipelines.

544
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:44,440
Naturally.

545
00:40:45,060 --> 00:41:01,820
So, uh, also, so then the other one, I mean, you mentioned several times as microservices, and I feel like, I feel like this is, this is another one that's kind of like, uh, to some extent writing down and codifying what we think of as our, as, as a pivotal approach and what our customers have doing that, the kind of stack.

546
00:41:02,140 --> 00:41:10,780
So, so similarly, like what's, if you were to give us kind of an overview of the stackish approach or the, the, the approach that we talk about in that paper, what, what goes on in there?

547
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:17,760
Yeah, there's a, a lot of the content about how to do microservices kind of in, in general is, is out there.

548
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:31,740
And so, as I mentioned briefly earlier, this is really prescriptive to how to do it on, on PCF and some of the things that you, you know, get by using, you know, spring boot, for example, you know, kind of the compatibility you have with pivotal cloud foundry there too.

549
00:41:32,240 --> 00:41:49,620
Um, and then there's also a few things that we talk about making the leap from the monolithic architecture where, you know, a lot of, you know, monitoring and logging, you know, those were all pretty straightforward because it was just one thing that you had to, you know, think about to now this interdependency.

550
00:41:49,620 --> 00:42:01,620
So, so some parts of the paper, you know, underscore, I think some of the challenges with microservices where you have to think differently for logging, you have to think differently for, for metrics, you have to think differently about, you know, a lot of things operationally.

551
00:42:01,620 --> 00:42:19,060
Um, but then it also contrasts that with how I think the industry in general has, you know, rallied around, uh, microservices and has answers to some of these, you know, problems like distributed tracing, um, with things like, you know, Zipkin, which we embody in, in PCF metrics.

552
00:42:19,060 --> 00:42:37,960
And then, you know, you know, things that we've done, uh, purposefully with cloud foundry, like the logger gator, uh, you know, tool that, you know, aggregates up all the logs from the platform, from the code, all these different components and makes it, you know, a single unified stream so that, you know, it's not such a charring experience operationally.

553
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:41,220
You can still plug into this one, one thing and understand what's happening.

554
00:42:41,220 --> 00:42:50,540
So it's a pretty decent look at day one, day two microservices with, um, a practical approach to how things are, are different from the world of, of monoliths.

555
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:54,820
Um, there's also a lot of investment that we've done along with the community for .NET.

556
00:42:54,820 --> 00:43:05,000
So it was a purpose thing, purposeful thing for us to work in, you know, windows and .NET into a lot of these papers as well, since, um, you know, microservices isn't just for Java anymore.

557
00:43:05,780 --> 00:43:05,800
Sure.

558
00:43:05,980 --> 00:43:06,360
You got it.

559
00:43:06,380 --> 00:43:08,440
You got to represent for the glacier swimming holes.

560
00:43:08,860 --> 00:43:11,200
Make sure that the .NET stuff gets in there.

561
00:43:11,220 --> 00:43:12,000
As always.

562
00:43:12,220 --> 00:43:19,600
So, um, uh, uh, I just, I just joked myself into forgetting what I was going to ask, which, which is, which is nice.

563
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:32,940
But, um, I, I think, you know, what, one of the things I always struggle with is to like rattle off examples of, of, well, it'd be easy to rattle off examples of bad microservices, but of good microservices.

564
00:43:32,940 --> 00:43:41,160
And, and, and did y'all, you know, along with the platform architects you're working on, did you come up with a, did you encounter and come up with a handful of good examples of what a microservice would be?

565
00:43:41,220 --> 00:43:47,800
Other than the canonical books you might like to buy, which, which I think is always, uh, it's always good.

566
00:43:48,760 --> 00:44:11,580
There's, uh, some that we talk about, uh, for, um, the insurance industry, financial services, where you've got, uh, imagine say, uh, open enrollment period, um, when there's a new company, uh, that's signed up for an insurance service where this enrollment service, um, may be something new that you want to, that you want to have as a, you know, providing software as an insurance company.

567
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:18,860
You're going to have a spike in enrollment once new customers, you know, come on board your insurance benefit management, you know, type of platform.

568
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:24,520
So being able to scale that independent of your other services, uh, is one example that we talk about.

569
00:44:24,780 --> 00:44:34,020
And then in that same vein, um, once you actually have somebody, uh, somebody that's a customer, you know, that that's filing a claim, you may want to scale that differently.

570
00:44:34,020 --> 00:44:37,620
Or when it's come time to renew your benefits, that would happen at a different cycle.

571
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:47,180
So just being able to scale the system, um, independently, these different services to correspond to the business cycle, uh, is one, is one thing that we mentioned.

572
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:55,240
There's also a handful of, of reference architecture that we talk about kind of, you know, more holistically this, um, you know, CQRS type of structure.

573
00:44:55,400 --> 00:45:06,360
And then some other examples of how you do, you know, data enrichment, uh, event-driven architectures, things of that sort, just to, you know, go a little bit, you know, meta big picture on what a holistic system would look like.

574
00:45:06,700 --> 00:45:07,580
Yeah, that is interesting.

575
00:45:07,580 --> 00:45:12,100
So it seems, it seems like you have a nice mix of things for architects, for some operator.

576
00:45:12,180 --> 00:45:14,640
I mean, I would assume the Bosch paper is probably the most operator centric.

577
00:45:14,720 --> 00:45:15,160
What do you think?

578
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,120
Yeah, I think that's definitely, uh, definitely the case.

579
00:45:18,300 --> 00:45:24,480
Um, and then we try and, you know, hit those other constituencies in the, in the buying center, uh, with the others too.

580
00:45:24,780 --> 00:45:33,140
Yeah, but at the same time, hopefully, you know, if you're a manager, if you're a, I don't know, if you're an architect, if you're a manager, it's good to have some cross-pollination.

581
00:45:33,300 --> 00:45:35,280
Even if you're a dev, it's probably good to read the Bosch paper.

582
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:40,800
You know, if you're a operations person, understanding the microservices imperative that devs are thinking through.

583
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:50,460
So hopefully these things are, you know, I know when I look through them, very digestible and folks should be trying to cross-pollinate with their other teams as you're trying to do either fake DevOps or real DevOps or whatever.

584
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:51,520
You're trying to have some empathy.

585
00:45:52,060 --> 00:45:55,040
So hopefully papers like this actually break down that barrier just a bit.

586
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:55,680
Yeah.

587
00:45:55,880 --> 00:46:05,420
It's, it's, it's sort of like you're talking about, we were talking about what the hype cycles is, uh, you, you could, I guess you could print them out and physically do it, but you could, you could metaphorically stack these papers together.

588
00:46:05,420 --> 00:46:13,020
And they, uh, they kind of inform the other one, like, you know, the last one is, you know, an overview of Bosch and, and, and how it's awesome and all that.

589
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:15,180
And it is like just delving.

590
00:46:15,260 --> 00:46:26,040
I mean, you even have, uh, I don't know if there's code, but there's a YAML Cody example, but you give a, with some diagrams, a pretty good overview of like the way this works and therefore how it works.

591
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:33,280
And therefore why it enables all this awesomeness up the stack of, of automating things and helping you scale and things like that.

592
00:46:33,420 --> 00:46:41,120
And I think, uh, I think, I think it's, it's a good, it's a good way of explaining how, if you sort of, um, I was talking about this with someone earlier today.

593
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:47,620
If you sort of homogenize the, uh, the lower levels of infrastructure, so you don't worry about them so much.

594
00:46:47,620 --> 00:46:51,260
And, and as always you trust it and it working is key.

595
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:52,280
That's a good requirement.

596
00:46:52,640 --> 00:47:01,780
Uh, but if you do something like, you know, uh, automate your infrastructure and do all your health checks and basically keep your infrastructure healthy with something like Bosch and be able to run on multiple clouds.

597
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:19,080
It, it, it gives you a lot of latitude to, uh, do all this stuff up the stack all the way up to, you know, the PCI level where now you can actually trust the automation that's going on and the automatic enforcement and how that gets supported by deploying with build pipelines and running microservice and the fault tolerant type of stuff.

598
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:24,180
I don't know if the microservices people would say fault tolerance, the resilience of microservices.

599
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:34,720
Um, but it all kind of is, is possible by the, uh, as we've talked about in previous episodes by the scary clamshell, which I think, I think y'all, uh, y'all have done a good job unscarifying.

600
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:38,440
I don't know what the opposite of scary is, but, uh, that's, that's a good overview.

601
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:40,000
Yeah.

602
00:47:40,020 --> 00:47:43,120
Hopefully the, the Bosch, uh, as a project is more approachable.

603
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:44,820
Is that the opposite of, of scary maybe?

604
00:47:45,700 --> 00:47:47,340
Uh, but yeah.

605
00:47:47,340 --> 00:47:55,160
And like, like Richard was saying, you know, the cross-pollination of, of content, you know, a lot of times we talk about the contracts you have between components.

606
00:47:55,160 --> 00:48:10,280
And we like to say, you don't need to care about that, but maybe you can take 10 or 15 minutes to read a paper, to find out, you know, what your operations team might actually be doing, you know, to give you, you know, this resiliency and, you know, the other things that are essential to you as a developer.

607
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:14,640
Cause in, in reality, all these, you're trying to break down these silos and share information.

608
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:21,000
So, um, hopefully a lot of folks find the good information and all of these, regardless of what their, what their role might be.

609
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:21,440
Yeah.

610
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:34,960
You know, because I'm such a, uh, moderately fast scurrying flanard across all this cloud native stuff, I never actually go investigate this, but I always think, I always think it's, it's interesting to look at the, uh, the cloud provider interface, the CPI, uh, that Bosch has.

611
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:42,780
And, and to kind of contemplate like, are, is this the minimal set of functionality you need to run any piece of software?

612
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:43,840
Right.

613
00:48:43,860 --> 00:48:46,280
And, and every time I look at it, it seems like it, right.

614
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:48,240
I mean, obviously you need to install the software.

615
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:49,380
So that's good.

616
00:48:49,500 --> 00:48:51,060
And then you need to configure it.

617
00:48:51,180 --> 00:48:52,740
And then you need to see if it's up and running.

618
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:55,000
And if it's not up and running, you should get it up and running.

619
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:58,120
And there's, I think like, you probably remember better than I do.

620
00:48:58,180 --> 00:49:12,640
There's like 18 or 20 different methods that you implement, but it almost feels like that's the bare minimum you need to actually run software on computers, which is, which is, uh, it's a, it's a curious thing to look at every now and then in a good way.

621
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:20,260
Well, do you have any other, uh, did you get any other, uh, like fun insights as you were working on these papers that you wanted to throw out there before we wrap up?

622
00:49:21,260 --> 00:49:25,100
Uh, just hopefully that a lot of folks, you know, find it, um, pretty easy to read.

623
00:49:25,100 --> 00:49:27,340
There's been some good feedback about that.

624
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:38,980
And so for a lot of these things, uh, the, the secret sauce for me has been, uh, the Hemingway application that, uh, allows you to copy and paste some, you know, text you've written and gives you a readability score.

625
00:49:39,220 --> 00:49:46,540
So that's been a bit of a cheat sheet to, uh, you know, help make sentences shorter, digestible, use more forceful kind of language.

626
00:49:46,540 --> 00:49:50,560
So, uh, for aspiring writers out there, that could be a good tool to check out.

627
00:49:50,720 --> 00:49:53,700
So the papers have been run through this, uh, Hemingway filter.

628
00:49:53,820 --> 00:49:58,660
So hopefully it, uh, it, it makes it more readable regardless of people's personal feelings about Hemingway.

629
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:04,380
I mentioned that then people go into tirade about how they feel about him as an author, which was not really the point I was trying to make by mentioning it.

630
00:50:04,380 --> 00:50:09,280
Yeah, yeah, you know, I, I think, I think Richard mentioned this earlier, but yeah, the papers are extremely readable.

631
00:50:09,720 --> 00:50:12,480
So, uh, good, good job on, on y'all doing that.

632
00:50:12,540 --> 00:50:12,660
Yeah.

633
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:16,300
You know, I think, I think when it first came out, I tried to use the Hemingway application.

634
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:22,320
I think I brought down the internet, so I should probably not put things I write through that, that, that would not be good.

635
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:27,460
But, uh, yeah, but you know, since, since you evoked, I think Hemingway was a great author.

636
00:50:27,660 --> 00:50:30,140
He's like, he's like one of my two favorite authors.

637
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:31,740
So he did a good job.

638
00:50:32,940 --> 00:50:34,640
You could do worse than reading him.

639
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:41,180
I mean, if you want to be fancy pants, you could go read a bunch of Faulkner and kind of get the same effect, but, uh, Hemingway is good stuff.

640
00:50:41,540 --> 00:50:48,560
Well, with that, this has been another Pivotal Conversations episode with a little, uh, literature nook, uh, visit for you.

641
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:59,880
Uh, as always, if you want to get the most recent episodes or see all the old ones, and we have some little playlists there of kind of sub runs that we have with various analysts or with, uh, customer interviews that we've done.

642
00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:02,840
And you can go to soundcloud.com slash Pivotal Conversations.

643
00:51:03,180 --> 00:51:06,460
I saw that someone decided to infuse some cash into soundcloud.

644
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:08,180
So they'll be around for at least another year.

645
00:51:08,300 --> 00:51:09,680
We'll see how that works out.

646
00:51:10,060 --> 00:51:12,180
Uh, it's a fine place to host podcasts.

647
00:51:12,340 --> 00:51:17,640
Uh, if you want to, uh, reach out to us, uh, I am Coté, C O T E and Twitter.

648
00:51:17,900 --> 00:51:18,840
How about yourself, Jared?

649
00:51:21,220 --> 00:51:23,300
I am Jared Ruckel at Twitter.

650
00:51:23,460 --> 00:51:25,680
J A R E D R U C K L E.

651
00:51:26,180 --> 00:51:26,860
And yourself, Richard.

652
00:51:27,460 --> 00:51:29,260
You can find me at our Saro there.

653
00:51:29,420 --> 00:51:31,020
So all, uh, all hot takes welcome.

654
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:40,160
And about every Thursday, if I'm doing my job, uh, moderately correctly, we'll post the full show notes, uh, at pivotal.io slash podcast.

655
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:41,820
In addition to it being on soundcloud.

656
00:51:41,940 --> 00:51:45,400
And we'll have links to those papers and, uh, to the Hemingway application.

657
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:48,320
If you, if you don't want to use Google, we'll put, we'll put that there.

658
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:50,920
And the news items we talked about, and it's always good.

659
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:59,300
If you just, uh, if you're listening to this on the web or you've downloaded it to, um, I don't know, some sort of moto razor that you still have manually.

660
00:51:59,300 --> 00:52:08,960
You should just subscribe to the RSS feed, which you can find in whatever you listen to iTunes, Overcast, probably Stitcher and, uh, have, have a listen there.

661
00:52:09,260 --> 00:52:13,400
And, uh, it's also great if you give us a star or a, uh, a review in iTunes.

662
00:52:13,780 --> 00:52:14,800
That's, that's fun.

663
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:16,360
And I understand it helps things out.

664
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:18,320
Also, we have several other podcasts.

665
00:52:18,380 --> 00:52:20,840
We have one called that moment that you can search for.

666
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:29,280
I think the third episode of that is out and that's, that's a fun podcast going over as the name would imply sort of the thinking that people went through when they decided to, uh,

667
00:52:29,300 --> 00:52:32,460
finally start doing things in a better way, or they realized they needed to.

668
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:34,680
We also have, uh, pivotal insights.

669
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:42,160
I just listened to a really good one, uh, talking with, um, one of the people who heads up our modernization, our application modernization practice.

670
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:50,820
And, um, it was really good because it was, went over kind of like the methodological way that they figure out, uh, what to modernize and how to approach it.

671
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:55,740
So we got all sorts of stuff going on there, but with that, we'll see everyone next time.

672
00:52:55,940 --> 00:52:56,540
Bye-bye.

673
00:52:59,300 --> 00:53:00,380
Do we lose Mr. Coté?

674
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:02,780
I'm here.

675
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:04,300
I was, I was on mute.

676
00:53:04,500 --> 00:53:05,620
Now I have to go edit this.

677
00:53:05,820 --> 00:53:06,300
This is terrible.

678
00:53:06,380 --> 00:53:06,940
Yes, you do.

679
00:53:07,060 --> 00:53:07,520
Damn it.

680
00:53:08,180 --> 00:53:08,720
Let's see.

681
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:10,980
Around 6.30.

682
00:53:12,020 --> 00:53:14,360
The rolling cooler helps for podcast editing as well.

683
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:14,960
Yes.

684
00:53:15,180 --> 00:53:16,200
You got to get a rolling cooler.

685
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:18,940
And, you know, you want to investigate having big wheels on it.

686
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:20,300
You don't want to get those little wheels.

687
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:21,400
You got to get some big wheels.

688
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:21,980
I've got them at Costco.

689
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:23,420
I've got them at Costco here.

690
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:25,020
So they're ubiquitous.

691
00:53:25,460 --> 00:53:25,660
Hmm.

692
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:27,360
We do need to get a new cooler.

693
00:53:27,500 --> 00:53:27,880
So I'm going to check.

694
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:30,520
I don't want to go get a Yeti cooler because that's a lot of money.

695
00:53:30,780 --> 00:53:33,660
And then also like someone's going to steal it.

696
00:53:33,820 --> 00:53:37,700
And then it's, I feel like it would be the equivalent of like leaving a box full of iPhone

697
00:53:37,700 --> 00:53:40,800
seven pluses just at your campsite while you went out for the day.

698
00:53:41,300 --> 00:53:42,600
And that's not good.

699
00:53:43,300 --> 00:53:45,680
Had to put that as a little jokey thing at the end there.

700
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:46,780
Don't want to waste content.

701
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:47,260
Anyhow.

702
00:53:47,260 --> 00:53:50,420
Uh, so yeah, what was I saying?

703
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:51,600
Well, anyways.