1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,140
Hey there. I wanted to tell you about a new podcast we got going over here at Pivotal.

2
00:00:03,260 --> 00:00:06,900
It's called That Moment. Don't get confused like I was initially. It's not the moment.

3
00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,280
It's called That Moment. That Moment explores the pivot that changes everything,

4
00:00:10,580 --> 00:00:14,780
moments that open doors for discovery and growth, but also brings the looming possibility of

5
00:00:14,780 --> 00:00:18,720
failure. Each show features different leaders and innovators sharing their stories and taking

6
00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:23,640
risks in business life. It's, you know, classic Pivotal stories. Also, it's fancy with all the

7
00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,840
crossfading music and optimized editing. It's really some good pro stuff. So if you're interested

8
00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,980
in those kinds of stories about how people are wangling their way through all this digital

9
00:00:31,980 --> 00:00:36,240
transformation, DevOps cloud native stuff, go subscribe to That Moment wherever you get your

10
00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:40,680
podcast. But you know, for your weekly dose of unprofessional old school podcast rambling,

11
00:00:40,980 --> 00:00:46,080
let's get on with the show. So do you have, you got, you, you, you have kids, you know,

12
00:00:46,160 --> 00:00:52,740
you have like summer camp shenanigans going on? Yeah, I got one doing gymnastics, another one doing

13
00:00:52,740 --> 00:00:57,820
sports camp this week, then some tennis camp coming up. So now what is, what is the,

14
00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:04,040
what is the, the, the operating procedure in your family on a summer camp? Do you just pick a camp

15
00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:08,400
for them or do they choose? Cause you got to book this stuff like three years ahead of time

16
00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:13,060
or something. Like, so like, how do you sort through which ones for the kids to go to?

17
00:01:13,980 --> 00:01:17,540
Yeah. At this point it's been brute force since the, you know, it's like, Hey, you're going to take

18
00:01:17,540 --> 00:01:21,980
tennis camp this summer because you've never played tennis before. So learn something new. So we did that.

19
00:01:22,020 --> 00:01:25,500
And I also signed him up for karate, which he now likes. So yeah, at this point I'm picking them.

20
00:01:25,500 --> 00:01:29,140
And if he hates them, we dropped them. Of course. Is it, is this like canonical karate,

21
00:01:29,300 --> 00:01:34,580
karate, or is this one of these other martial arts forms? And karate is just a, like a Kleenex or a

22
00:01:34,580 --> 00:01:40,220
Google for it. No, it's traditional. He's not doing, you know, jujitsu or anything like that.

23
00:01:40,320 --> 00:01:45,140
Or the Taekwondo. Yeah. Huh. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You know, my, uh, my son,

24
00:01:45,180 --> 00:01:50,940
Cormac goes to Taekwondo, uh, uh, highly related. He's in summer camp this week as you might be able

25
00:01:50,940 --> 00:01:55,580
to guess, which means he can't go to Taekwondo today, the day he normally goes to it. But it is

26
00:01:55,580 --> 00:02:01,160
like, I, uh, I think there needs to be like a Harvard business review study of this tiger rock

27
00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:06,480
franchise model. Cause they are, they're an effective business unit. And, and I think, I think one,

28
00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:11,960
I think there's a lot of money in that. The, uh, as we call him the big guy who owns it, he seems

29
00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:17,420
really happy. He's totally chill. Things are all right. And he's a good instructor. He seems like

30
00:02:17,420 --> 00:02:25,100
generally happy to be telling like, like, uh, six to, you know, 40 year olds had to like chop and kick

31
00:02:25,100 --> 00:02:30,500
stuff. And, uh, and, and then he's also really good him in the whole organization. It's sort of

32
00:02:30,500 --> 00:02:34,800
like telling you things you could spend money on. Right. So he's not, he's not like that, that

33
00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:39,360
instructor you might, you remember from Napoleon dynamite. Like he just seems to have a good business

34
00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:46,960
snack. And, uh, it seems, it seems like my guess for the, uh, this is why I want the HBR study. My

35
00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:54,240
guess for the martial arts business model is it's basically daycare, right? Or daycare and,

36
00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:59,100
you know, kids, like you're always dealing with a lot of kids. So, um, I have to imagine that the

37
00:02:59,100 --> 00:03:05,780
kids are the high margin, high top line revenue part of the business. And then as people get older,

38
00:03:05,780 --> 00:03:11,680
that becomes lower top line margin and, and lower, uh, what's top line margin. It becomes,

39
00:03:11,980 --> 00:03:15,880
becomes less profitable because the adults actually show up and there's fewer of them.

40
00:03:15,940 --> 00:03:19,940
But I think with the kids, there's a lot of kids and there's probably a high not show up rate.

41
00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,840
I don't know. I like your dissection of this business. I mean, it's not mixed martial

42
00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:26,900
arts. We're not paying kids to fight each other in a cage, which would be interesting,

43
00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:28,000
but that's not what that is.

44
00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:32,060
Yeah. Then they would have to pay the row of parents who are sitting there watching every,

45
00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:33,940
I mean, they would, we would have to pay to watch.

46
00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,260
Right. Exactly. I mean, that's a way to make some money. I'd pay 10 bucks a lesson

47
00:03:37,260 --> 00:03:38,940
to see, uh, to see that happen.

48
00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:42,080
Yeah. Go work out your aggression, little Johnny and Jane.

49
00:03:42,580 --> 00:03:47,720
That'd be great. Uh, well, well, uh, well this week, once again, we don't have a guest.

50
00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:52,780
So, uh, I, we thought we would look more into, uh, one of the ongoing research things we have

51
00:03:52,780 --> 00:03:58,780
my, my delving into whatever enterprise architecture is. I, I have some, uh, I have some more material

52
00:03:58,780 --> 00:04:03,400
that I've read through actual three-dimensional dead tree stuff. And then, uh, and then we've

53
00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:07,520
have some collected things we'll go over. But first I was just, uh, I was just complimenting

54
00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:12,800
you on your ability to find news in the desert. That is the late summer. What's been going on there?

55
00:04:13,460 --> 00:04:17,540
Yeah. The summertime is funny because I mean, next week we could be talking about a, you know,

56
00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:21,840
a point release of, of windows notepad or something like that, but no, they're still

57
00:04:21,840 --> 00:04:26,580
legitimate going on right now. Uh, I started off with the, uh, Google cloud team opened up their

58
00:04:26,580 --> 00:04:30,140
London location, which is great. So it's two locations in Europe. I think they've got two or

59
00:04:30,140 --> 00:04:35,980
three more planned in the short time. And, you know, again, as always, they, the March goes on,

60
00:04:35,980 --> 00:04:39,880
but they also showed that, Hey, latency is a lot less, obviously, if you're closer to there.

61
00:04:39,940 --> 00:04:44,520
So there's good benefit to not just saying we have one location in Europe. And of course,

62
00:04:44,540 --> 00:04:48,880
when Google opens a location, it's multiple sites or multiple, whatever data centers. It's

63
00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:53,740
not just a facility. So yeah, they've got a nice redundant, uh, set up out there and it

64
00:04:53,740 --> 00:04:58,500
looks like most of the services are available already. Yeah. I wonder what the, uh, I actually

65
00:04:58,500 --> 00:05:03,660
know a, uh, a person who's in like local government IT. I think they call it council over

66
00:05:03,660 --> 00:05:07,960
there. And, uh, I wonder what the environment is for selling to stuff like that. Like, you

67
00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:12,760
know, here in the U S it's basically, uh, everyone's interested in optimizing their IT,

68
00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:17,240
but there's a lot of, uh, there's a lot of, I wouldn't call them regulations, but like a

69
00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:21,980
lot of not wanting to take risks. And, uh, so, you know, I was just reading and speaking

70
00:05:21,980 --> 00:05:27,540
of my, my dead tree book, I was reading a case of the city of Liverpool, uh, who you may

71
00:05:27,540 --> 00:05:33,160
remember as being funnily named and also where the Beatles are from and, and, uh, of them

72
00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:38,140
revitalizing their ERP stuff in the two thousands. And, you know, I hadn't read a good, uh, UK

73
00:05:38,140 --> 00:05:42,980
local government business case in a while, but it would seem like you open up your data centers

74
00:05:42,980 --> 00:05:49,100
over there in the UK. Now. I don't know if, if London covers all the bases, but, uh, over

75
00:05:49,100 --> 00:05:54,100
there, at least in that, that area, like, uh, uh, I I'm, I'm sure that meets some of

76
00:05:54,100 --> 00:05:58,220
the, the sort of like regulatory and risk concerns people would have. I don't know.

77
00:05:58,420 --> 00:06:02,100
I think so. They're big on data sovereignty there. So, I mean, there's a lot, there's a

78
00:06:02,100 --> 00:06:06,180
main reason people open up locations in Germany and then they opened them in England because

79
00:06:06,180 --> 00:06:08,560
you know, a lot, there's some strict rules about taking data out.

80
00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:13,020
Yeah. You know, you know, not, not to, uh, not to nudge too close up to political stuff,

81
00:06:13,020 --> 00:06:17,700
but like, you know, uh, the, the, the release of like sensitive voter information sort

82
00:06:17,700 --> 00:06:21,520
of, uh, validates all that data sovereignty, freaking out that people have been doing for

83
00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:27,640
the past 10 years. That's a, that's a, you should probably control your data because it

84
00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,780
is just, it's tricky. Cause you just don't know where, I mean, whose network is it going

85
00:06:30,780 --> 00:06:34,980
over? Where is it at rest somewhere where someone walks out with a thumb drive? So I think to

86
00:06:34,980 --> 00:06:38,840
some extent, all this is theater because I think most people have no idea how their data is

87
00:06:38,840 --> 00:06:40,540
protected. Maybe that's just me.

88
00:06:40,820 --> 00:06:45,660
Well, you know, I like to keep my data busy. I don't let my data rest. Always moving, always

89
00:06:45,660 --> 00:06:51,000
moving in motion, always be doing stuff. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. Well, also, uh, there was,

90
00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:56,300
there was some more follow-up on the, uh, the Azure stack. So yeah, you know, like, uh, this is,

91
00:06:56,380 --> 00:07:00,340
this always excellent, uh, fun stuff for people who would listen to this kind of thing. We, uh,

92
00:07:00,620 --> 00:07:05,420
to plug my other, uh, part podcast over on software defined talk, we talked about it at length

93
00:07:05,420 --> 00:07:10,220
last episode and I'll put a link to it, but, uh, there's, there's some more perspectives you can get

94
00:07:10,220 --> 00:07:14,740
there. And, uh, you know, also on that episode, if you're interested, we talked about, uh, some

95
00:07:14,740 --> 00:07:20,900
container orchestration, uh, shenanigans and, uh, the, uh, you know, probably you and I have the

96
00:07:20,900 --> 00:07:26,620
same type of fun for like people like Matt assays column style. And, uh, he, he had a good, uh, a

97
00:07:26,620 --> 00:07:31,000
good, a good inflaming column about all this, but, uh, you can go see some commentary over there,

98
00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:35,340
but, uh, apparently they announced something exciting for us at their, at their conference

99
00:07:35,340 --> 00:07:41,100
over in DC. What was it? Yeah, a couple of good things. So this was this inspire conference. It was

100
00:07:41,100 --> 00:07:45,240
called the worldwide partner conference, which I've been to a couple of times before. This is a big

101
00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:50,200
conference. It's like, you know, how many partners is over 10,000 partners. I think they're

102
00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:55,260
the giant show, uh, our own Ian Andrews was there and said they actually used like three hotels plus

103
00:07:55,260 --> 00:08:00,360
the conference center. So big, big show, all kinds of partners, schmoozing, making deals. Uh,

104
00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:05,080
one thing was that we talked about, uh, with Azure stack that pivotal will be a launch partner with

105
00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:09,640
that. So pivotal cloud foundry on Azure stack, which is a good deal. And then kind of the more

106
00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:13,600
interesting thing is we actually won an award because Hey, it's nice to win awards. So we were

107
00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:18,600
partner of the year, uh, with regards to consumption. So in terms of us consumption of Azure,

108
00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:23,940
PCF drove the most or pivotal drove the most. So that's pretty cool. Given we only hit the marketplace

109
00:08:23,940 --> 00:08:29,280
like eight months ago. So already one of the most heavily used things in Azure, I think it validates

110
00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:34,440
big investment in us 12 months ago at the same time shows that people like deploying big things at scale

111
00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:38,680
with us. So that was pretty cool. You know, that, that reminds me one of the few Grammys

112
00:08:38,680 --> 00:08:43,880
I ever watched. I remember at one point, all of a sudden they were like, Hey, let's have Dr. Dre stand

113
00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:50,440
up. Cause that guy has sold a lot of CDs. Number one partner for consumption there in the music

114
00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:54,840
industry. But yeah, it is. Uh, that's one of the things we were talking about on that, that episode

115
00:08:54,840 --> 00:09:01,000
is, uh, once, once you get this stack in place, as we kind of mentioned last week too, uh, it's, uh,

116
00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:05,240
you know, it's, it'll, it's interesting to see if you have this full stack that people have been talking

117
00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:13,320
about wanting basically private cloud, uh, how that works out. And, and of course to rehash a lot of what

118
00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:17,240
even you and I said last week, right? Like obviously being in pivotal, we know that people

119
00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:22,600
are building a lot of these, these, uh, private clouds on their own, but having like a fully unified

120
00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:28,280
stack, especially in the Microsoft area, right? Like that's another wrinkle is that, um, it's always

121
00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:33,800
been Amazon and, and, and Google and, and of course Azure, but sort of like behind the firewall,

122
00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:38,600
Microsoft stuff and getting, getting into that, uh, that market will be, will be fun to see it, uh,

123
00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:45,160
pan out. Now, the other thing I was thinking this since you, you work in, in, uh, in marketing,

124
00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:49,560
what we need to start doing, just if you, if you can write this down, maybe, maybe Richard,

125
00:09:49,560 --> 00:09:53,800
you can go up to your boss, Ian. See, I've, I've sorted that out. I use the right names.

126
00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,600
And you can say, we need, we need to get a few of these stack things that we can start shipping

127
00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:04,120
to conferences. So we can just have a little, a little box right there at the booth. You gotta have

128
00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:08,520
that box. There we go. Yeah. The other piece of that news, you know, if you put on your,

129
00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:12,840
I know you're an M and a junkie and, you know, do it, looking at financials is fun for you.

130
00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:18,120
I just wonder, I haven't done the math myself, but it seems like this was a good ROI for Microsoft.

131
00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,080
They gave us a lot of money last year as an investment and we're already their biggest

132
00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,680
consumption partner. That seems like a good deal. That doesn't happen very often from my

133
00:10:24,680 --> 00:10:28,680
recollection. I mean, when do these companies plow money into startups or other things and actually

134
00:10:28,680 --> 00:10:33,880
see that turn into something outside of an IPO or an acquisition somewhere. So this seemed unique.

135
00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,560
I think that's actually a pretty cool story that maybe it's a not money down the toilet.

136
00:10:37,560 --> 00:10:41,880
Yeah. I always like that. I mean, sometimes you got to clear the toilet, but that's a whole

137
00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:46,920
tool they use. Correct. Wow. We're really going from, from Dr. Dre to toilets, covering the bases.

138
00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:54,200
This is, this is what happens when you eat a spicy bison hot dog before you podcast and have a cup of

139
00:10:54,200 --> 00:11:00,760
coffee as, as, as I did. That was my next password for a system. There's your, you know, I usually do

140
00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:05,400
this on the other podcasts, but every now and then I like to throw out a Costco tip here. If you buy

141
00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:11,000
the grass fed, you know, the grass fed, you know, well-employed, you know, hippie with a 401k natural

142
00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:16,200
beef, hot dogs, they have there, make sure you don't get the hot link ones. Now I like the hot ones,

143
00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:21,880
but when you try to serve those to your kids, you know, it's, it's hard enough to get the kids to eat

144
00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:26,040
anything. And then all of a sudden you've given them a hot dog, which they normally like. And they're just

145
00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:31,720
like dad, my mouth just burned out. And, uh, and then man, and then you got to come up with something

146
00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,880
else, maybe a mini pizza, but just make sure you get the ones that aren't spicy. If you got kids.

147
00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,720
There you go. Now quick, quick eat these jalapenos. It's going to calm things down in your mouth.

148
00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:45,160
That's probably. So speaking of huge amounts of spend, uh, you know, we also referenced,

149
00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:49,160
I think the, uh, the IDC black book the other day. And when I was reading through the press release,

150
00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,520
I think they've updated their black book and they were finding, what was the percentage?

151
00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:56,680
IT spending is up like 2.5% or something like that. Let's see.

152
00:11:56,680 --> 00:11:57,560
Yeah, I think it was 4.5.

153
00:11:57,560 --> 00:11:58,920
4.5%. That's crazy.

154
00:11:58,920 --> 00:11:59,560
Don't sell it short.

155
00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:04,680
Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I, I just, I've been reading, speaking of MNA stuff, I've been reading the, uh,

156
00:12:04,680 --> 00:12:09,240
the stream of MNA news that comes out of four or five one research from, uh, Brendan over there.

157
00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:13,080
And, uh, and it's, it's, it's, it's the kind of thing that you shouldn't read because it's a very

158
00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:17,480
rocky road. Like one, one week, everything's awesome. The next week, there's just not enough of it.

159
00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:21,880
And I, I often have a similar, uh, reaction, although I guess it's on a quarterly,

160
00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:27,000
yearly basis to the, the IDC worldwide spending update, because sometimes it gets corrected

161
00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:31,880
downwards and sometimes it's upward. Like it's always, uh, it's always a little crazy, but 4.5%.

162
00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,600
That's crazy. That's a, that's a CAGR for you.

163
00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,040
Yeah. These are big numbers. So even that kind of growth is pretty cool.

164
00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,960
So cloud seems to be driving a lot of that, you know, obviously the usual technology spend,

165
00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:47,000
but you know, mobile and hardware as well, but yeah, it's cool to see that. And that,

166
00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:51,480
I think they also mentioned it, uh, Asia Pacific leading a lot of this, this spend as well,

167
00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,120
because this is a global assessment, obviously not just us.

168
00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:59,640
Mm. Yeah. And, and that mobile is kind of a flat as they say, which, which you could take

169
00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:04,040
that as a bad way. But I think the, the current analysis, the, the, the, the shared analysis is

170
00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:09,800
that it means that there's a pretty much maximum penetration, which is to say, uh, everyone has a

171
00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:14,760
phone. Everyone who's going to buy one more or less has a phone. And so I think we covered that

172
00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:19,480
when we were going over like Mary Meeker stuff. That was a big, uh, interesting point she had.

173
00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:24,680
And then, and then also, uh, as, as they were covering, there's a lot of, uh, cloud infrastructure

174
00:13:24,680 --> 00:13:30,120
spend, which that's always depending on what you do with these numbers. If you're just like, uh,

175
00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:36,440
entertaining yourself with them, as I suppose I do, uh, like that's fine. Cause you want to see the

176
00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:41,400
total spend, but if you're more interested in the state, well, it's a small amount of companies that

177
00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:47,240
account for that infrastructure spend and it's some somewhat bigger that sell into it, but it would

178
00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:52,520
be interesting to take that chunk out of the spend as they kind of do in the press release and, uh,

179
00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:56,920
and see what the effect is. But it's, uh, you've always got to be careful. Like if there's a small

180
00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:01,240
amount of the market that accounts for a huge amount of spend, I mean, basically like, I don't know,

181
00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:06,280
I'm sure it's like Google, Facebook, Microsoft, and people like Salesforce and all, and all these

182
00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:12,040
other big companies, you got to, uh, yank out that to get a more realistic, uh, to revert to

183
00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:16,680
the mean of meaningfulness. There's this, that's my math pun right there. There you go.

184
00:14:16,680 --> 00:14:22,920
The mean of meaningfulness. I got to work on that. Yeah. Yeah. You'll, it's your workshop in here.

185
00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:28,120
That's what this is. Uh, the, uh, last piece I listed was, uh, I'm just seeing more platforms

186
00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:33,560
pop up work day. The, uh, company there announced that they're doing a, I guess a platform as a service

187
00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:37,160
and the blog post will link to in the notes. So saying, Hey, it's time for us to have a platform

188
00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:42,440
for people to build on. And why not add a 67th category of paths for Gartner to identify?

189
00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:48,200
So this will be good. So, you know, it's just been interesting. Cloudflare did too. MongoDB

190
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:52,280
talks about them being a platform now. And again, those things make sense. I'm reminded of the Simon

191
00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:57,320
Wordley comic about kind of each layer of the stack saying I'm a platform and the top layer is a

192
00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:01,960
platform saying, no, you're not. And so, you know, what is a platform? Obviously it can depend on

193
00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:06,520
context. You know, Uber is a platform for Uber eats and other things that kind of build on top of it.

194
00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:10,280
And all sorts of things are platforms. It's just interesting to see some of these software as

195
00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:15,560
a service providers or Cloudflare, you know, CDN providers now offering sort of application

196
00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:20,360
platforms and ways to build some customized things. It probably makes sense, but it's, uh,

197
00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:24,680
not going to make things any less confusing for people. Yeah. Yeah. No, this is like,

198
00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:31,720
like to add my usual, uh, context or color commentary, like, like I, it's an interesting,

199
00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:38,200
I wouldn't say a return, but like, you know, way back when paths was first an idea, right. Which,

200
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:43,400
which I'm sure historically there's other things, but like you could kind of peg it with like Salesforce

201
00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:49,080
having their apex platform. And there were, there was like Google app engine, like, uh, some things

202
00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:55,240
like that, but it was essentially, uh, as, as you were doing, I used to call this like, uh, paths as

203
00:15:55,240 --> 00:16:00,440
plugin or whatever. There's all these phrases. No one uses anymore, like plugin and SDK. It's,

204
00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:06,280
it's, uh, maybe, maybe retro stuff will come back. That'll be fun anyways. Uh, but yeah, I mean,

205
00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:10,360
that is, that used to be the kind of like the only way paths was done. And I remember working on

206
00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:15,720
market sizing, um, when I was at four or five, one and analyzing them when I was at Dell doing strategy and,

207
00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:20,440
and pretty much all the meaningful revenue way back then came from these segments.

208
00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:25,960
And, and then, you know, people like, uh, like Heroku and stuff like that. Uh, this is like

209
00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:31,480
four or five years ago. And so, yeah, it's, and then there was also service now, which is always

210
00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:36,920
positioning itself as, as a, as a platform. So yeah, it's a natural progression of stuff that if you're,

211
00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:44,680
I mean, every, every chunk of enterprise software more or less has SDKs and plugins.

212
00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:48,520
And so as they move to more of a SAS model, it makes sense that they would, they would have those

213
00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:52,440
things. And, uh, hopefully it makes them more sticky and, you know, make some more attractive

214
00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,040
platforms for more than just their original core thing, which of course means you make more money.

215
00:16:56,040 --> 00:17:00,120
So yeah, natural extension. And, and I, and I think, I think there's, there's a couple of interesting

216
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:04,760
things to look at here. So one, uh, like I haven't checked in them on a long time, but as a notable

217
00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:12,280
example here in the making, like SAP is rewriting big parts, not rewriting, but making big parts of their

218
00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:16,280
stuff run on cloud foundry somewhere. Like they're a member of the cloud foundry foundation and stuff.

219
00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:20,120
And I don't know, maybe that's changed, but last I checked in there, they're doing stuff on top of

220
00:17:20,120 --> 00:17:25,000
that. And they are in, in theory, there's two things happening there. One, you get the private

221
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:30,920
paths situation that as a Pivotal are always talking about, which also, uh, has the same thing. Well,

222
00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:35,560
similar thing that if you had a, a, uh, a SAS version of whatever's running there, you would have

223
00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:39,960
the pass alongside the public pass alongside it. And it would be interesting to see two things with

224
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:45,640
that one historically, uh, when it comes to ERP systems, it's very difficult,

225
00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:53,400
risky and expensive to have add-ons to it. Right? Like, like the, the, the sort of like

226
00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:58,040
interfaces and often programming languages you have to use are like kind of esoteric to,

227
00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:02,920
to the normal world. And it's just sort of like risky to mess with them. And then the other,

228
00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:10,680
the other wrinkle is, uh, there's this, there's this, um, what would you call it? Core belief in,

229
00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:15,000
in the ERP space that once you start customizing it, that's

230
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:21,080
the path to madness and destroyed ROI. Right. It's kind of like the equivalent in, in our,

231
00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:27,400
our little cloud ops world is, um, uh, any sysadmin will tell you the best way to have a

232
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:33,800
stable system is to never release anything. Right. And, and so the most valuable activity,

233
00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:39,400
customizing an ERP system is the riskiest. So, you know, I, I could see that there could be, uh, some

234
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:44,760
improvements for the long-term viability of customizing things. If, uh, if sort of architected,

235
00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:50,360
right? Like in theory, a lot of the benefit of a bunch of microservices stuff is, uh, you kind of

236
00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:56,280
remove a lot of the intertwined dependency nonsense that causes customization stuff to, uh, not pan out.

237
00:18:56,280 --> 00:19:01,960
Well, I guess, historically you could look at like, if that panned out in service now, which is a pure,

238
00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:07,880
like SAS thing that you can customize. Like, I wonder how, uh, how much they get over those problems,

239
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,240
but anyhow, it feels like, yeah, you end up with a tricky level of, I mean, it depends on the

240
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,880
portability, right? I mean, when I, I've done a giant SAP implementation project at a large enterprise,

241
00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,720
and we did it in, I think a year and a half, which is among the fastest they had ever seen. It cost us

242
00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:24,360
a fortune. But the question was, where do you do customization? So in our case, we would just publish

243
00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:29,320
data out from it and then use an actual message bus to route things versus using SAP's built-in messaging

244
00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:33,240
engine. Cause that would have been a sticky mess. So, you know, you had to choose where do you

245
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:37,720
customize things or where do you, you know, decrease your portability options by embedding it in that

246
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:42,040
software you just bought. So it'd be interesting if these platforms let you have something that feels

247
00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:47,240
somewhat portable, or are these just more ways to glom on to the, the bigger product that you bought in

248
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:52,280
the first place, the SAS product? Yeah. So which, you know, that's a good transition to our topic with,

249
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:58,840
with the joke, like probably it's good to have some people, some function at your organization who can

250
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:05,080
figure out if a net weaver is a very comfortable relaxing hammock, or if it's a spiderweb that's

251
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:09,160
going to ensnare you and trap you. And it all depends on how you're going to use it and what

252
00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:13,480
your needs are and how you're going to implement things. It's not a one size fits all sort of thing.

253
00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:19,480
See, there's, there's my late 2000s joke there. That's go look that up kids.

254
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:28,440
Hey, it's interstitial mid roll stuff. I just wanted to promote a few upcoming pivotal things

255
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:33,240
here through June, July, and August. We had the cloud native roadshow coming to all sorts of cities.

256
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,560
This is a free day long event we do with Google that goes over what exactly cloud native is and

257
00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,800
how our customers are using pivotal and Google technologies and approaches the cities. And this

258
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:46,200
is a long list. So get ready. The cities are Stuttgart, Dallas, Denver, LA, Seattle,

259
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:51,720
San Francisco, Amsterdam, Seoul, Hong Kong, Sydney, and Singapore. There's a big list of dates that you

260
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,560
can look at. You can check out the show notes for a link to it. Or if you just want to go and Google

261
00:20:55,560 --> 00:21:00,280
for pivotal cloud native roadshow, you'll find it pretty easily. We also have Spring Days Atlanta

262
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:05,000
coming up July 18th and 19th. It's chock full of sessions for developers who want to learn more

263
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:09,880
about the spring framework, cloud native style development, and of course, to be fully buzzword

264
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:15,000
compliant, microservices. If you go to springdays.io, you can get more info. And that's the last Spring

265
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:19,320
Days we're having so far that we have scheduled this year. So get that one in if you're over in

266
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:25,240
Grits and Porkland. It'll be good stuff. Finally, while it's way in the future, we also have Spring

267
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:29,880
One platform coming up December 4th and 5th. Now registration just opened recently for this. I think you

268
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:35,000
might have missed the early bird thing for it, but that's fine. There's also still the CFP open. It

269
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:39,480
closes on September 1st. Now, what goes on at this conference? Well, it's full of what I would call

270
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:45,240
the suit track and the technology track. In the suit track, you've got case studies and managers

271
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:50,040
and developers as well, but organizations talking about how they've transformed their company and what

272
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:54,200
they're doing with cloud native and their organizations, how they're getting good results by switching

273
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:59,480
over to doing things in more of a pivotal way. But then there's also plenty of events. For those of you

274
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,720
out there who enjoy more nerding out and doing technical things to check out. I'm one of the

275
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:10,360
chairs of the DevOps pipeline and monitoring track that we inform informally call it. We've already

276
00:22:10,360 --> 00:22:14,840
got lots of excellent talks queued up from the likes of Home Depot, Express Scripts, Allstate Northern

277
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:19,400
Trust, and of course, plenty of pivotal people. I'll be speaking in that track, if that's anything.

278
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,880
So come on there. Again, it's in San Francisco, December 4th and 5th. And if you just go to

279
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:28,920
springplatform.io, you can check it all out. And with that, enjoy the episode this week.

280
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:37,640
Well, that was our choice. That was what we were dealing with. Was it NetWeaver or using the

281
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,240
Enterprise Service bot? So those are real choices that architecture had to make.

282
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:47,480
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Love it. I used to go to the, not to hold this back. I used to go to a lot of the

283
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:53,160
SAP TechEd. That was like, that was like one of the more functional, awesome tech communities I ever

284
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:58,520
got poked my head into. A lot of people don't get exposed to it because it's off in ERP land. But like,

285
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,840
there were some like really happy people scurrying around there.

286
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,200
Like, yeah, I presented a couple of those. It was actually at the beginning of my career,

287
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:10,360
I got to go to Berlin for one and then in Vegas. And it was the first time I ever saw entertainers

288
00:23:10,360 --> 00:23:15,720
become corporate shills. Like to have Lenny Kravitz on stage screaming, go SAP. It completely destroyed

289
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:20,680
my picture of Lenny Kravitz. Yeah. Yeah. Well, anyhow, so as I was mentioning, uh, I've, I've,

290
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:26,840
I've done some more, some more research pondering, uh, in, into, uh, into whatever cloud native

291
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,360
enterprise architecture is. And I thought, I thought we could spend some more time, uh, you know,

292
00:23:30,360 --> 00:23:35,240
instead of just pointing to links, uh, talking about it. Cause so awesome. So I major development

293
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:41,400
in my research, Richard, I finished reading the 2006 blockbuster book. It wouldn't be a blockbuster,

294
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:47,160
it'd be a bestseller, right? Maybe, maybe bestseller in its category of enterprise architecture,

295
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:53,000
the, the enterprise architecture as strategy. Now it's by three authors. I don't remember their names,

296
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:57,880
even though I have the book here, but whatever it's, uh, you know, I think it's a good book.

297
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:02,760
So I read this book with the intention of like, so let me, I kind of, let me, let me re-explain

298
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:07,480
a little bit, but contextualize, right? Like, so, uh, we meet with a lot of enterprise architects

299
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:15,400
in, uh, in, in pivotal land here. And oftentimes, uh, you, you know, they're not always too thrilled

300
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:20,360
about what's going on. Now thrilled is a little strong, but they're, they don't kind of take

301
00:24:20,360 --> 00:24:25,320
on the role that you would expect as like major leaders of change agents. Now this happens sometimes,

302
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:31,560
right? But they're often, uh, some, a group of people that you have to spend some time, uh,

303
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:37,320
talking to and translating. Like once you do things in a cloud native devopsy, whatever way,

304
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:43,320
what does the enterprise architect do? And, and, you know, so, so to, uh, to answer this kind of

305
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:47,320
question, uh, and you know, beyond all the anecdotes and theories that I have, like,

306
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,000
I thought it would be good to get a baseline for like, what exactly is in our enterprise

307
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:58,600
architecture. And like, you know, like any good, uh, phrase like this, the answer is probably like,

308
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,280
like, well, what do you want it to be? Right? Like, but which, which is not very helpful.

309
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:08,040
So I, I figured I would go back to some of the classics like this book that really seeks to, uh,

310
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:12,680
define that. And, uh, I think this book's pretty good. I read that one. Yeah. Yeah.

311
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:17,960
Yeah. A few years ago. There you go. Like, like, so, so one thing, so part of what I'm doing here is

312
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:22,280
to try to like, uh, uh, you can't really say troll anymore cause that's negative, but I'm, I'm,

313
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:28,360
I'm trying to, uh, I'm hanging out a sign for people to send me information, not a sign like a symbol,

314
00:25:28,360 --> 00:25:33,720
but just like a Lucy sign. And, uh, yeah, like I, uh, after, as I was reading this book,

315
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:39,800
I searched around for, you know, the phrase DevOps and enterprise architect and like cloud and all

316
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:44,440
this. And I, I don't know if there's been any updated literature since then that sort of describes

317
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:49,560
what this is, which is distressing. Um, so anyways, if someone knows of new things, that would be good,

318
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:54,840
but let me, let me just give a brief overview and, and, uh, you know, I've updated, I shared my notes

319
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,120
document. You can look in the show notes and I'm kind of collecting all my research, but

320
00:25:58,120 --> 00:26:02,760
I put my little summary, which is much more detailed. And, and so a summary of this book,

321
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:08,680
and just until I find something new, I'm going to treat this as a, uh, as my, uh, my functional

322
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:14,120
straw person of enterprise architecture, right? Now we'll see if this straw person ends up having

323
00:26:14,120 --> 00:26:20,280
a heart and ruling Oz, or if it's just a Socratic straw person, but anyhow, basically,

324
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:25,320
so you got an, you got an organization now let's set aside government. So we don't have to, uh,

325
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:30,200
government and nonprofit. So we don't have to caveat about nonprofit motives, but just whatever

326
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:37,000
transmogrify profit motive into government nonprofit motivations in your head. So you got a business,

327
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:44,440
an enterprise. First thing that's not necessarily stated in, in our, our EA straw person is that it's

328
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:49,160
probably big, right? Like this is, this is kind of a baseline assumption that you kind of start with.

329
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:54,200
I think, I think the first thing we can all agree on is that enterprise architecture has limited

330
00:26:54,200 --> 00:27:01,560
utility, not to say no utility, but limited utility. If you're like, well, Spotify in year one, like,

331
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:06,760
you know, like if you're, if you're like a little startup that's working on stuff and eventually

332
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:11,480
I would argue, and maybe this is for another time, but I would argue that someone like a Google

333
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,400
or a Facebook probably does have enterprise architecture. They would just never call it

334
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,640
that, but they're, they're big enough and old enough to sort of have like how things operate

335
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,880
around here. But at the beginning, having a, an enterprise architecture probably is not a good

336
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:29,160
idea and just probably not needed. It's sort of like, uh, oh, whatever I'll, I'll dispense with

337
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:35,240
silly analogies. Um, so, so you have a large organization. Now you got a business. Now the

338
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:40,360
first thing that this book lays out that I think is valid, right? Is like, so you're going to use

339
00:27:40,360 --> 00:27:45,160
computers to help run your business. So you got that. The next thing you should probably do is like,

340
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,640
how are we going to run computers to help the business? Well, let's back up. It's probably good

341
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:55,800
to understand how the business runs. Now, what they call this is the businesses operating models.

342
00:27:55,800 --> 00:28:01,080
And, uh, so these operating models, they reduce it down to four, right? And, and like anything,

343
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:08,040
it's sort of like, you know, there's probably 60, but that's a big book. So let's reduce it down to

344
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:12,280
four and none of them are perfect, but it's just, you know, something to, to think about and it fits

345
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:16,920
in a quadrant. We can all agree on quadrants, et cetera. So you got the form. Let's see if I remember

346
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:22,840
them. So one, you have the, uh, they call it diversified or as we would call it in cloud native land,

347
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:27,960
siloed. Now, again, when I go through these, hopefully, uh, when you, the audience won't

348
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,880
fall asleep, we'll see if I can keep Richard awake, but he did say he read the book. So, you know,

349
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:36,280
that's true. That's right. But, uh, when I go through these, all of what I'm about to say

350
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:42,360
is about the business with a little bit of it implication. So the diversified model is basically

351
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:47,720
like we have a bunch of business units and they all pretty much operate in their own way. And they all

352
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:53,320
pretty much have their own customers and products. And so we don't really have any commonality in the

353
00:28:53,320 --> 00:29:00,840
business and there's not really any, um, I'll just use it. There's not any synergies when using

354
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:07,080
synergies in this case is basically like cost savings by doing the same things or ability to sell more

355
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:13,720
stuff by the business units coordinating with each other. Um, you know, synergies. Uh, so no,

356
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:18,280
I like that you pause there at least that you had to think about it because I go there or not.

357
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:22,280
Yeah. You know, and then synergies in an M and a sense are different. And then synergies,

358
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:27,480
if you're making fun of people is different, you got three types of synergies. So, uh, anyhow,

359
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,720
so, you know, you look at a business like this is something like you could probably think of like

360
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:38,840
Samsung, lots of Japanese conglomerates, GE, um, stuff like that. Right. Like they're just like,

361
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:47,400
you can buy, uh, I, a 258 gig, like micro SD card from Samsung, and you can also buy a TV or

362
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:52,440
you can go to like, you know, I forget if this is true with Hitachi. You can go to Hitachi and buy

363
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,440
like a bulldozer or a hard drive. I don't know if they sell bulldovers anymore, but you know,

364
00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:01,720
you get the NGE will sell you a wind turbine and then also like a jet engine. And I guess those are

365
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,560
things that rotate, but you know, they're all different businesses. Yes. Right. Yeah.

366
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,400
Almost like holding companies more. Yeah. Just, I have a lot of different businesses.

367
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:14,280
So you got, you got a business that's basically a holding company siloed business. Now the implication

368
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:22,920
for it is sort of like, eh, let them be silos. Like at best the business as, as we do in the, uh,

369
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:27,960
Dell technologies thing and at EMC before that, you might use the same expensing system and you might

370
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,840
use the same payroll system or not. Like, you know, when it comes to back office, we have a different,

371
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:39,320
uh, um, like benefits like health insurance and other benefits system than people in the rest of Dell

372
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:45,480
technologies have for strategic reasons. So, you know, who knows? Uh, and so then another model

373
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:51,080
is the, I don't understand this model very well, but this is what they call the shared model.

374
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:56,200
And I think the shared model, as they state it is the business operates as follows.

375
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:01,720
You have a bunch of small, I think it's like a branch store thing, right? So you've got a bunch

376
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:08,760
of usually geographically dispersed things and they all operate the same, but they have different

377
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:15,960
customers. And I'm very confused about this one. Like they use McDonald's and seven 11 Japan as an

378
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:23,320
example of this and bank branches. And so I think, I think this one is maybe the most affected by cloud

379
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:29,720
stuff. Because I think the idea is that if you're a seven 11 store, a bank branch or a McDonald's,

380
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:36,120
you probably, it's a franchise model. So you don't have a centralized data center somewhere that's

381
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:42,600
all running the same software. You literally replicate that stack of software and it runs independently,

382
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:47,960
um, or something like that. Now it might also be, go, go ahead.

383
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,760
So I think like, if you go into a Walgreens or you go into like certain retailers, they have servers

384
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:53,960
there. Yeah, exactly.

385
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:55,800
They run as like little business departments.

386
00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:00,680
Exactly. So, so, so there's that model, right? So that, that's a business model that as we're going

387
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:06,440
over has, uh, has things. So then you have another one before we get to the one that, you know,

388
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,600
the, the, the big old honking one, the, the enterprise architecture, ivory tower in the sky,

389
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:16,040
called coordination. And the coordination one is, is, uh, it's common out. It's like the reverse

390
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:22,200
of the shared thing is you have the same shared customers and product that you're selling, but

391
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:28,360
each unit operates in its own way. So it has its own operating model or business processes. And I think,

392
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:34,120
I, I think I forget the, I think maybe modern day examples of this would be something like,

393
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:39,800
maybe like the way, or this is not modern day, I guess, maybe the way like an insurance broker

394
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:45,960
works where like, you've got a centralized, you've got the same book, the same model at the central

395
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:51,960
insurance company, but then they have franchisees like branch people who might use the same systems,

396
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:56,360
but their relationship with customers is the same, or maybe that's a shared one. I don't know.

397
00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:01,240
It gets really confusing, but, but there, there, you know, Uber might be another interesting one,

398
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:07,640
right? Where they're, they got the same customer base sort of, but anyways. So then you'll see

399
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,880
where I kind of get chomp through all these when I'm done with my little monologue here. So then you

400
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:18,680
have the unification one, which is like, it's all the same, right? Like we all, we all use the same

401
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:24,440
stuff. It's all one unified system. And I think if I remember an example of this is, is like an airline

402
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:30,920
design where like, uh, you know, what we do is we fly people in metal tubes. We have one process,

403
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:35,720
one way of doing that. It's all basically the same and things like that. So all of the, I've already

404
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,640
kind of gone over it, but the first thing an enterprise architect has to do is like, so how do we operate?

405
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:45,000
Do we operate in a way where we don't need to unify it or a way where we should unify it? How do we share

406
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:50,200
the data and the customers? How do we map all of this? And how do we computer across all these business models?

407
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:57,160
So that was kind of like a not helpful, perhaps a very boring summary of it. But I think that part,

408
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:03,000
as far as figuring out what enterprise architecture in a cloud native world is right, like that seems

409
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:08,200
valuable, right? Like it does, you know, in the organization structure. And I mean, even to the,

410
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,600
you know, your final category, again, when I was in enterprise IT for whatever, five, six years,

411
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:17,680
even though we probably fell into the latter category, you still had manufacturing would do some of their own

412
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:22,800
stuff different from, you know, legal in HR versus R and D versus whatever. So even though you were

413
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:27,680
kind of using some commonality, you had little IT groups in each one, you still had technical

414
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:32,480
leaders in each one. So I haven't seen too many companies that are totally holistic, that latter

415
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,320
one, where like, everybody's just, you know, doesn't matter where they are, they're all using the same

416
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,800
tech. Yeah, I don't know. That seems a little more unique nowadays.

417
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:43,600
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So here's, since I, I looked up in the book, a unification when they use like

418
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:48,320
Dow chemical as an example, but basically somewhere where like, I guess, pharmaceuticals are kind,

419
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:53,200
probably kind of like this, where it's just like, you create one product, and you sell it to one

420
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:57,200
group. In the case of a pharmaceutical, you're like, you create one product, you sell it to humans.

421
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:03,040
Right. And so the process around that, the way you manufacture it and distribute it, and I'm sure

422
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:07,200
there's regional differences and stuff, but it's sort of kind of all the same, maybe like groceries

423
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,200
are a similar thing. But, but anyhow, I mean,

424
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,560
I think at the meta level, sure. I mean, I went for a pharma company where I did this. And again,

425
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:18,520
there were, I wouldn't call it unified, but in concept, it was, it's just a reality can't be.

426
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:22,520
So, so then the next layer, and then, and then all of this, right, is, as I was writing in our notes,

427
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:27,960
is, is, is a baby in bathwater exercise, right? It's sort of like when it, when it comes in a cloud

428
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:32,440
native devopsy world, is it all bathwater? Or is there a baby in there somewhere, right? Like,

429
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,960
you know, to use the idiom about don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

430
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,440
Nowadays, thankfully, we have drains that babies don't fit through. So you don't have to worry about

431
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:47,480
that. But maybe that's automation for you. Anyhow, so then, basically, it follows from these four

432
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:53,480
models that here are four different ways of managing your IT, which, which took there, there's like,

433
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:57,960
I could go on for another 10 minutes about the models that they have. But as I was reading over it,

434
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:04,360
basically, it's just a linear sort of gradient that you have of like, so how much do I standardize

435
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:10,040
and centralize this? Right? Like, do I allow people to run all their own things? Or do I go all the way

436
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:16,040
to the other end, where basically, like, we have three systems that you use, and you have to use those

437
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:21,400
three systems, like everything is centralized and standardized. And there's all sorts of like routes

438
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:26,840
that you go to that basically based on the models. But that's sort of like the next major, like,

439
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:31,880
enterprise architecture thing. And again, this 2006 view that you're supposed to come up with.

440
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:36,920
And then and then so you figure out what your ideal is. And then the whole rest of the thing is is about

441
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:41,480
just two things. And then and then, you know, I kind of pause about this book, we can be hammer about

442
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:46,840
stuff. But like, the first thing is like, so, if you have a way of doing your enterprise architecture

443
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:51,560
that you're not at, right, like you're, you've got all this siloed IT, that's not unified, and you

444
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:57,000
need to unify it together for for business for strategic and cost reasons. How do you get to there?

445
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:02,200
And like, how do you go through that path? How do you go through a maturity path to get to it?

446
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,600
And then the third thing, as you have to do at the end of every book is like, so once you've done all

447
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:12,840
this hard work, what is the reward? And then they have, they have the fifth model. And the fifth model

448
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:17,560
is basically what all of us cloud native people go Yammer on about, which is like, now you can be

449
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:22,520
super innovative and growthy. And they even have like, you know, the quotes of like, they don't really

450
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:27,960
say mash up an SOA, but it's sort of like the not that we say that either. But it's sort of like the

451
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:33,240
realization of that vision of like, if we had a perfect SOA or mash up, as as many of our customers

452
00:37:33,240 --> 00:37:37,960
say, like, I can think of something on Monday, and by Friday, I can have it in production, right? And

453
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:44,440
that's, that's once you've gotten all the EA council has gotten all their their cats in a bag,

454
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:51,800
then you can start having your cats go in a quick unified direction. Bad analogy. But, but so that's

455
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:56,760
the end state you want to get to is basically what the cloud native people like are, are us are always

456
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:03,160
promising. So couple, there's, there's a summary about there. Yeah, I mean, so one thing it's

457
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:07,880
interesting, because 2006 is when we started to do cloud. So it's funny, this book came out before

458
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:13,720
that shift really kicked in, I think S3 came out in 2006, right around then. So that was like pre cloud,

459
00:38:13,720 --> 00:38:19,240
like right on the cusp of that happening, as well as it wasn't a thickness of SOA getting going. And,

460
00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:23,000
you know, now we would say, you know, back then you were, you would ship on Friday,

461
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,720
with an idea on Monday, because you found a bunch of reusable services that you smashed together and

462
00:38:27,720 --> 00:38:31,960
shipped. Now we would say you shipped on Friday, because now you have an automated delivery pipeline

463
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:36,360
that cuts through everybody's stage. And it doesn't matter if that's not a reusable service or not,

464
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:41,720
I can build software better and faster. So I mean, same end state. But how we would get there is very

465
00:38:41,720 --> 00:38:45,640
different 12 years ago, 10 years ago that I think how we'd answer that today. I don't

466
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:47,240
know if architecture has caught that though.

467
00:38:47,240 --> 00:38:53,400
Yeah, yeah. No. And I think that comes to the whole bucket of the, there is no baby

468
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:59,560
counter arguments, which is counter arguments to enterprise architecture being valuable, which is

469
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:06,760
like, the technology has changed so much that all the constraints that drove to this type of thinking,

470
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:11,880
like, don't really exist in the same way, right? Like, like, as you were saying, like, we can do

471
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:18,520
things so rapidly and resiliently, if that's with such resilience, that you don't need to put so much

472
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:24,520
upfront thinking into controlling and centralizing and standardizing things, or something along those

473
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:29,880
lines. And, you know, just conversely, though, you know, that those that EA discipline is still at the

474
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:35,000
companies. And so even though you can technically do those things faster, you know, logistically, you can't,

475
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,680
because you actually have more to have to cut through to make that happen. And it's, you know,

476
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:42,440
you and I talked about this. It's funny, because I think, arguably, even what Pivotal does should be

477
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:46,840
a godsend to people in enterprise architecture, because you're actually codifying patterns,

478
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,840
you're changing how you deliver, you're simplifying your architecture. But, you know,

479
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:57,560
it's a big shift to go from this sort of governance and control model to efficient delivery speed,

480
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:02,040
right? It's not about IT efficiency anymore. It's about business productivity and things like that.

481
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,480
And just for a lot of the eight teams, I've either been part of or talked to,

482
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:10,760
it often morphed into IT efficiency and reuse and cost cutting. And how do we kind of squeeze

483
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:15,000
the most out of technology versus how are we delivering the awesomest service for our customers?

484
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:19,720
How are we actually tying it back to actual business objectives and measuring success that way?

485
00:40:19,720 --> 00:40:22,680
I think we just lost our way a little bit, and maybe we're starting to come back to that.

486
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:27,800
So then that, like, as with all of this, right, pretty much everything I'm going over is like

487
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,320
theories I'm floating out in so much as I have a position instead of summarizing other things.

488
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:38,200
So there's, to run by you and the listeners, there's two, as you were saying, there's two

489
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:44,280
theories I returned to about, what were you saying, how it went wrong?

490
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:50,440
Right? So, so like, again, going back to 2006, right, which is interesting, because that's the

491
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,960
year I stopped coding. So if you think about everything that's changed since then, like,

492
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:58,680
I don't have a lot of firsthand experience with, I don't know what, what a, what a pull request is.

493
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:03,800
I don't understand what all that nonsense. I mean, obviously I do like, you know, uh, anyways, um,

494
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:10,120
so it seems like, and, and, and they mentioned this in the book, they're very good about not

495
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:18,280
actually saying SOA or web services. So gold star there. Uh, um, but I have a, I,

496
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:22,920
one of my theories I returned to is that all of the good intentions of enterprise architecture

497
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:31,160
were ruined by web services, data standardization and sort of like, uh, as we would say prematurely

498
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:37,480
worrying about the schema and, and locking that down. And then what comes after that is having

499
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:42,760
to deal with, um, you know, I'm sure there's infinite threads out on the internet that have

500
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:50,040
long been deleted over on like the, you know, server side.com or whatever. Um, but, uh, you know,

501
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:56,360
then you got these gigantic XML files and, and it turns out like, I like XML a lot, but I think I'm

502
00:41:56,360 --> 00:42:01,240
the only person in the world and, uh, you know, nothing like reading the X path spec that you should

503
00:42:01,240 --> 00:42:07,800
check that out. But anyways, uh, like people don't like XML and it's big and difficult to deal with.

504
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:13,160
And then you got, you got the old, uh, DHH guy coming in and just like setting the fire that blows

505
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:19,400
up all of this stuff. And then, and then we have JSON and YAML and then like, it's just like this sort

506
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:24,600
of like, uh, enterprise architecture kind of gets isolated down this dark path that no one cares

507
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:29,480
about. I don't know. I'm putting no one in air quotes. So, but it all kind of is like, we all

508
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:34,680
got obsessed with data interchange and like setting the format, which people really didn't like and

509
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:40,280
ended up slowing down things. Um, and again, that gets a situation where you throw out the baby with

510
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:44,280
the bathwater. Right. And then you're just like, whoever this enterprise architect person is, they're

511
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:48,040
just, they flip the bozo bit and they're totally wrong. So I just think all of that's trash.

512
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,840
Yeah. That's an interesting take. I mean, I, you know, back in that was when I was starting to

513
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:57,320
really kick into architecture and, you know, on the surface, all that WS star stuff you referenced,

514
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:01,800
you know, atomic transaction and attachment and all these things, it was probably an architect's

515
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:05,880
dream because here's all these ways I can kind of design these high level relationships. And

516
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:11,080
as a developer, I'm doing, yeah, not only massive XML, but SDKs didn't keep up and there was no

517
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:16,200
interoperability between different platforms for these things. So yeah, it was this absolute slog

518
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:20,680
that completely took everyone's eye off the ball, which was using technology more strategically.

519
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,680
So, I mean, potentially that was just a big detour that took people into a weird direction. And all

520
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:29,160
of a sudden, once developers were empowered again, gosh, I don't care about XSDs and I don't care

521
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:33,960
about schema definitions. I just have some data for services. I just need to move stuff around.

522
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:38,280
All of a sudden, architects are stuck holding onto schema as an XPath, meaning the developers

523
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:42,760
moved on five years ago. And then, and then, so there's another thing. This, this gets the other

524
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:48,200
thing that's from, from this idea, you can kind of, you can kind of, you know, you imagine you're in

525
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:52,760
a pitch black room and you discovered some piece of bread and you're like, I'd like to make a sandwich

526
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:56,600
out of this. And so you're just feeling out in the room for some lunch meat and cheese, or, you know,

527
00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:00,760
maybe some toasted tempeh if you're into that. So you're kind of searching around for something vaguely

528
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:06,120
connected to this. And like, I think another criticism people have of enterprise architecture

529
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:11,960
that is sort of valid related to the technology all the way up to it is there's not, there's not

530
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:18,680
this strong emphasis on a strong feedback loop to, to sort of change how it is you think about the

531
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:24,600
system and what you should be doing. Right? So the, the, my terrible analogy, uh, is that's all I do

532
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:29,880
nowadays. It's really bad analogies. Uh, but it's basically like, so you put your W, your WS

533
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:35,480
star stuff in place and you got your great schemas and it's really hard to change them.

534
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:40,920
Right? Like as, as a developer, uh, you, you sort of like, here's, here's our consolidated services

535
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:46,840
backend that you can use to rapidly pull together things. And the developers are like, yeah, but this is

536
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:51,800
really hard to use. And the enterprise architects are like, la la la la. I can't hear you. Right?

537
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,560
And so like, it doesn't really change that much now. Maybe they wanted it to, but because of the

538
00:44:55,560 --> 00:45:01,880
heavyweight nature of the implementation, it's just like, we can't change it. And to put it another way,

539
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:07,080
that there's no concern for usability, right? Like, is this a good way of going about doing things?

540
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:13,800
And I think, I think this kind of like simmering, uh, I don't know, long forgotten about beef

541
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:20,120
between the EAs and the dev teams is basically like, they keep giving us this technology that's

542
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:26,360
not easy and useful to use. And then a follow on, I wouldn't call it a non sequitur, but, but once,

543
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:30,680
you know, the ad hominem attack that gets into this is like, EAs have no idea what they're talking

544
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:34,600
about. They never actually code anymore. So they keep telling me these things that I need to do,

545
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:38,360
and they don't actually come down here and work on the projects, which, you know, in your, uh,

546
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:43,160
your advice to enterprise architects was a key reoccurring point is like, you should come understand

547
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:47,000
the new technology and how they're applied. If you're going to be prescribing this stuff.

548
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:54,200
So now if we look at microservices, right, like, and, and this is like almost an old tired, like joke

549
00:45:54,200 --> 00:46:00,200
to be had, but it's sort of like, there's a certain point where you read about, uh, so what WS star

550
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:04,280
and microservices, the chapter one of both of those books are pretty much the same.

551
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:10,360
Yeah. And then, and then they go on separate paths. And I think, I think one of, there's two key things,

552
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:14,040
at least in my mind that like, other than the tech, well, I guess there's three, one,

553
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:20,040
the technology used for microservices stuff is all different in theory. And then two, there's the sense

554
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:26,760
of like, we need something that's fast evolving, right. That, that can respond to a fast feedback loop

555
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:31,160
of how should we evolve this thing and how should we change it? And it's kind of implied that like,

556
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:35,960
it should be easy to use. There should be some usability to it. And then third, the other thing,

557
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:41,160
which maybe this was originally back in the mid two thousands, but the idea is like, when we're

558
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:46,840
architecting these microservices, we need to think a lot about the meatware implications for it. Like,

559
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:51,400
how does this affect the team doing things and how does it affect organizational structure? And this is

560
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:56,600
why people talk about Conway's law all the time, right? Like how do people actually operate and how can we

561
00:46:56,600 --> 00:47:01,240
make sure that the, uh, the services they're using and how they're combining them together are compatible

562
00:47:01,240 --> 00:47:07,240
with how people think and how teams operate. And so, I don't know. I mean, again, it's like the

563
00:47:07,240 --> 00:47:11,560
goals are the same and it gets down to like the implementation seems, uh, vastly different.

564
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:16,040
Yeah. It's hard to reboot this, this stuff. I mean, you've got a lot of entrenched thing. I mean,

565
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:20,120
again, I think architecture has never been more important than it is now. It's not saying architecture

566
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:24,120
isn't important. I think the old enterprise architecture is business architecture. I just

567
00:47:24,120 --> 00:47:28,120
don't see that as much anymore where those people designed the business. It still seems to be more

568
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:33,720
it centric, but gosh, I mean, getting, as you mentioned, I gave some advice a few months ago

569
00:47:33,720 --> 00:47:37,640
for EA teams and you know, it is about maybe shrinking your workload because you know what,

570
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:42,040
to your point, yeah, maybe I don't understand that this stupid spec, I just defined all the

571
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:47,720
developers hate it because I'm on 14 projects, 3% a piece. And so I'm just dipping in once a week

572
00:47:47,720 --> 00:47:51,960
for a Friday status meeting. I'm not actually sitting in the room with them. So cut your project

573
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:56,760
scope in half. Now, again, I, I was an architect on a 10 person team and a few thousand person

574
00:47:56,760 --> 00:48:00,520
organization. You were just always going to be spread all over the place, but maybe things have

575
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:05,560
to change there and you should be on the high innovation projects, not just the kind of rope.

576
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:10,440
We're updating our CRM system. Maybe that is one you dip in more and not the same. So I think

577
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:14,280
there's just a different approach to how you staff these things, how you approach it. And then,

578
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:18,920
yeah, these architects should be technically aware. I remember when a great architect, who I still

579
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:23,640
respect, he's awesome, but came into a project room I was in and I was sitting with the developers

580
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:27,560
and said, what is all this client side JavaScript? This stuff's a mess. You got to pull this stuff

581
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:31,400
out. It's like, dude, I mean, I know you haven't coded in a while, but that's where the logic goes

582
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:35,800
now. Like it's not all server side anymore. This stuff needs to sit on the client. So it was just,

583
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,880
it was just disconnected, right? I mean, architects can't be so disconnected from the tech their

584
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:45,080
developers are using, or you become, you know, I don't know, just a casual observer versus someone

585
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:49,640
who can change things. Yeah. Yeah. So let me, before we wrap up, let me float. Yeah. That's

586
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:55,240
good. So let me, let me float my current, uh, unified field theory of cloud native enterprise

587
00:48:55,240 --> 00:49:00,680
architecture. Right. And again, this is all theoretic just to like throw something up to see, uh,

588
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:06,360
to see what survives the, uh, the, uh, the, the come at me action of, of the cloud native kids.

589
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:13,800
Uh, that's all with case, I guess. Uh, anyways, uh, so, so first of all, it seems like, like,

590
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:18,920
I, I, here's the argument that, that enterprise architecture is a fat baby, which is to say,

591
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:23,720
there's a lot of it that should be preserved. Not there's some bath water to take out. And that is,

592
00:49:23,720 --> 00:49:28,840
so first of all, you mentioned one thing I forgot to mention. Uh, so this, this 2006 straw person,

593
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:35,800
um, they don't really ever use the word custom written software, but they do spend a lot of time

594
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:39,640
talking about package software. They don't even say package software, but you can tell what they're

595
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:44,120
talking about is getting, um, Sure. Commercial software, you know, caught software, you're

596
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:49,080
like software that you don't really customize. Right. So let's just take that off the table.

597
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:53,480
Right. I think, I think, I think the two thousands, that was a huge concern,

598
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:56,760
but in a cloud native thing, and this is actually like, I don't know if they'll accept it, but this

599
00:49:56,760 --> 00:50:01,480
was kind of like the, uh, uh, the, the topic of my, the, the column that I submitted for the

600
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:05,640
the register this month. Uh, but if, if you just sort of like take all your commercial

601
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:11,000
off the self shops for your cots and just like move that to SAS, don't worry about that anymore.

602
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:14,760
I'll be, I'm being dismissive, but when it comes to thinking about DevOps and cloud native,

603
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:19,960
that's not really your concern, right? Like you have to interface with it and do things with it,

604
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:26,040
but it's not, if you're not running it on your own, it doesn't consume as many resources inside

605
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:34,440
it as, as, uh, it used to. So anyways, we got that now, uh, what that means, I think for, for this,

606
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:37,960
this unified theory of cloud native enterprise architecture, I don't even know what a unified

607
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:45,000
field theory is, but it sounds good. Yeah. Is so it's probably a good idea to have someone in

608
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:52,840
an IT understand how the business runs, right? Like, like, and not just on a team per team level

609
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:58,600
and not just on a business unit level, but to understand how the entire organization works,

610
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:06,040
even if it's a big holding company, right. And to understand like what strategy in the sense of how

611
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:10,440
that company would like to sustain itself and grow revenue, like what it wants to do in the future.

612
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:15,400
Uh, and just to understand the goals of the business, how the business makes money. And again,

613
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:19,400
you can translate this to government nonprofit stuff, but like, it's a good idea to kind of

614
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:23,640
understand what's going on with the business, right? So that you don't show up with, uh, you know,

615
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:29,080
you don't want the CIO showing up and saying like, this year we moved all the windows desktops to

616
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:36,920
Linux desktops. How about that? Right. Right. So it's good to have someone who not only understands that,

617
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:43,480
but, but, but can like, um, translate it into an engineering mindset. Right. And, and I'll, I'll,

618
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:48,200
I'll point to a tweet where I took, I think there was some good enterprise architecture, uh,

619
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:53,560
like global diagrams in this book. The Delta airlines one is the best because it's, it's very easy to

620
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:57,800
understand. Cause like I was saying, I mean, their basic job is to put stuff in metal tubes and fly

621
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:03,880
it from one place to the other. Right. And it'd be good if it showed up, uh, undamaged. Um, so you can kind

622
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:09,320
of see where you can kind of map how it services, all of that. So like that role should probably exist.

623
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:15,640
Now the way to cartoonize like cloud native people is they're all like, oh, we just have this emergent

624
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:20,200
order of like the ants that like know how to get from one place to the other. And there's no, I'm,

625
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:25,000
I'm, I don't mean to be making fun of Matt Stein. I'm just using him as an example, but you know,

626
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:30,280
you've got this emergent order of things that, that, that happen that that's probably not the way

627
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:36,360
that things pan out. So you have that now. Okay. So the next part is like, so someone has to define

628
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:42,280
the business. Uh, so you gotta have that role. Uh, and that's what an EA usually does. So good for

629
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:47,720
them. The baby's getting fatter now. Now the, the, the next part is that like, to the point that comes

630
00:52:47,720 --> 00:52:54,280
up over and over again is like, so there's a lot of stuff changing nowadays, right? Like, but there's

631
00:52:54,280 --> 00:53:00,200
always been a lot of stuff changing and you know, you've always gone from mainframes to, uh, desktops

632
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:07,080
to client server, to the web, to mobile, to cloud. And then, you know, you also had like exogenous

633
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:12,680
things like regulatory things you had to do. There's always like every year, the pace of it has increased,

634
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:16,360
so to speak, which is, which is a joke. It's there's always annoying stuff to deal with, right?

635
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:21,080
Like it's, it's always that you had to adapt and change, but nowadays, like that's as true as it's

636
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:26,120
ever been as they like to say. So it's probably a good idea as an EA to like, keep up on things

637
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:30,760
and have firsthand experience with it because you're going to be prescribing how people are using these,

638
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:36,600
these stacks and how they're using this stuff. And like, uh, you're not going to have any credibility

639
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:40,840
to change people if you don't have firsthand experience now. So this brings in, uh,

640
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:46,360
the, the, the other part, which I think perfectly aligns, obviously I'm biased having been here,

641
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:50,920
but like, I think the major technological thing that's different that we've alluded to is like,

642
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:59,640
so if you have like cloud, uh, there's a lot of stuff that is automated, centralized and standardized.

643
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:05,400
So if you go back to those four operating models, like a lot of that thinking and managing that you do,

644
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:10,760
like you don't necessarily have to battle for that. And in fact, uh, we sort of in the cloud

645
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:14,920
native world espouse a pretty strong, I would argue enterprise architecture,

646
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:19,960
which is, we'll just use the pivotal cloud foundry one, which is like, we have this concept of a value

647
00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:24,840
line, right? That I think, I think waters came up with that, but it illustrates this thing is like,

648
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:30,200
so the value line is basically everything. It's kind of gray at the middleware stack,

649
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:35,000
but it's, it's, it's somewhere in the middle of your middleware, right? And like below that,

650
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:39,640
you should not worry about that stuff at all, right? Like you should just standardize on all

651
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:46,040
of the infrastructure you have, the, uh, the sort of platform as a service you have all of this stuff.

652
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:50,040
And as, as many of our customers do, you should have like, I don't know, five to 10 people who run

653
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:55,320
that whole thing more or less globally. It probably scales up to maybe like 50. I would imagine if you

654
00:54:55,320 --> 00:55:01,640
had like 20s of thousands of things you're running, but whatever, like you just have a, you standardize

655
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:07,960
on like a very small amount of things. And then there's no, like, there's no like question of like

656
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:11,560
all these different models that you have. Now, what I find interesting about this is

657
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:18,520
I think, I think a lot of cloud native people who like argue against EA stuff don't realize like

658
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:25,720
how, as we would say, opinionated of an enterprise architecture they're espousing, right? So it's

659
00:55:25,720 --> 00:55:31,640
sort of like, I think this is what makes the baby ultimately fat is, is the enterprise architect has to

660
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:36,680
sort of like be like, that's our enterprise architecture, right? Like this way of unifying the

661
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:41,240
way that we, and it goes even beyond pivotal cloud foundry stuff, right? Like the way that

662
00:55:41,240 --> 00:55:47,240
we do build pipelines, like we should standardize on that, right? Like there is, there's probably

663
00:55:47,240 --> 00:55:53,240
very little advantage, no matter what type of, uh, non, even a tech business, no matter what type

664
00:55:53,240 --> 00:55:59,800
of business you are to everyone having a different build pipeline, like maybe in a highly regulated

665
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:04,360
industry, I think, you know, there's always exceptions, but pretty much like you should all be using the same

666
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:10,680
build pipeline probably. Right. And then like, there's probably not that much advantage to using

667
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:15,320
a bunch of like microservices frameworks. And there's probably not that much advantage to using

668
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:20,040
different like infrastructure management things and on and on and on. Right. And so like, and again,

669
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:24,360
this is like that value line concept is all of this stuff is commodity. So like, why would you allow

670
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:28,840
people to do things differently? And so that is a very, like, if you remember the unification thing,

671
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:33,160
like all this stuff, of course, us, different vendors have competing ideas of what that stack

672
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:37,800
should be, but it's sort of like, everyone should use the same stack. And then you get all these huge

673
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:42,120
efficiencies that you read about. Cause you're not managing all these different things. So I don't

674
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:46,200
know. I mean, I feel like, I don't think this is always the case with enterprise architects,

675
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:51,400
like for whatever reason. And this is part of why people have complaints about them. They're often, uh,

676
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:56,440
the boat anchor in the organ or at least they're perceived to be. So the boat anchor that's

677
00:56:56,440 --> 00:57:01,320
preventing, and then someone else is the champion for introducing all of this stuff. But it feels like

678
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:07,560
if you go back and read the 2006 straw man, like the EAs are the people who are supposed to be like

679
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:13,480
figuring all this out and driving it. And I mean, it seems like easily what, uh, they could slot in

680
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:18,040
and, uh, continue doing because someone at an organization level has to decide to use whatever

681
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:22,200
platform stack you want, uh, rather than it kind of bubbling up from the bottom.

682
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:24,760
Yeah. But that's only my theory.

683
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:28,600
Lots of potential there. I mean, they should pick up the SRE book and look at that almost

684
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:33,160
as a form of architecture that happens nowadays. And just, there's a lot of ways that you can re,

685
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:37,400
I don't know, reignite enterprise architecture as what it's supposed to be. And it's hard because

686
00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:40,760
you need support at the top to make that happen. But you know, I don't think we're ready to write

687
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:45,080
it off. I think instead it can be awesome. We just have to, uh, yeah, follow some of those models.

688
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:49,720
That, that, I mean, just, just as, as a last bit that, that raises the last thing that I haven't

689
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:57,000
sort of figured out is like, uh, uh, and it's only alluded to a little bit in, in, uh, in, um,

690
00:57:57,000 --> 00:58:03,480
in this book and other stuff from, from the old, the old days, the old times, uh, which is like,

691
00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:10,120
I'm, I think nowadays, well, someone needs to be in charge of saying about talking about all the

692
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:14,680
process stuff. Like, how are we going to operate and kind of like define that. And, and again,

693
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:18,920
at least in pivotal land, right? Like we're pretty prescriptive about like, you need to have your

694
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:22,840
balanced teams and you should do pair programming. You should work on a weekly cycle and do this.

695
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:28,360
And so it is like that. I don't know if EA enterprise architecture stuff classically

696
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:34,280
would prescribe things like process, uh, that globally. Like, I guess maybe, you know,

697
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:39,240
there's always a lot of people, as I often joke, like, uh, large organizations always like to tell

698
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:44,840
me how many scrum masters they have. So there is kind of that, that sort of like putting it in

699
00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:48,760
place. But again, I think it also goes back to that thing of like, but there's, there's not the chance

700
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:53,160
to like relearn how to do things and reevaluate it and things like that. So I think that's another

701
00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:57,720
missing link in the unified field theory of cloud native enterprise architecture is like,

702
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:05,320
what role do they have in telling people what process to use? Which again, you could be all

703
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:09,800
squishy about like, if you're a DevOps or a cloud native person of like, oh, that should be emergent

704
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:15,800
ball of ants. But like, I'm pretty sure it's highly, there's, there's a highly prescriptive set of

705
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:19,960
things you're supposed to do that, you know, Nicole and friends over there at the DevOps report,

706
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:25,240
they got some good charts and they're like, you should do this stuff. Uh, and so like,

707
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:30,520
there is some things to be prescriptive about there that, um, I don't know, maybe when the office,

708
00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:34,840
the PMO people come and they're upset and they think that they're just all water and no baby,

709
00:59:34,840 --> 00:59:40,840
maybe that's their job, but, but we'll see. So there you go. Well, I'll put a link to my ongoing

710
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:45,880
notes and, uh, I have submitted a talk to several places, uh, saying that I'm going to describe all

711
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:51,160
of this. So eventually I'll have something to say if someone accepts my talk and I'll, I'll hopefully

712
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:55,320
publish something. So, uh, that's what we got to, you got, you have anything you want to add on?

713
00:59:56,920 --> 01:00:00,520
No, I think I said, we'll have a lot of pointers to some content and, you know, we know the people

714
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:03,880
for spring ones, maybe we should get you on stage there. Yeah. Yeah. And it would be great to talk

715
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:08,440
with anyone. Uh, so there's a lot of, uh, as we call them platform architects that I have lined up

716
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:13,240
to talk to. I've, I've talked to, uh, to, to, to one of them already. He had a lot of good things to

717
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:17,480
say. And, uh, there's a few other ones, but it would be especially good to hear from, uh,

718
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:22,440
from people who are not just vendors, but actually like doing this stuff, whether they, whether they

719
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:26,760
like think all this cloud native stuff is bonkers and we should go back to, uh, we wouldn't figure

720
01:00:26,760 --> 01:00:32,280
out what togaaf, togaaf is or whatever, or like people who have built this stuff up, but it would be,

721
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:36,600
uh, be good to get that written down. Cause you know, I have a feeling that just telling enterprise

722
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:40,280
architects that they're not needed anymore is, is like, not the answer. Like we got it.

723
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:45,240
We got it. We got it. We got to get the fat baby out of that and, uh, and evolve it around. Cause

724
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:50,360
like, you know, you probably would rather write software than figure out which type of the four

725
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:53,960
business operating things you work with. You want to get someone else to do that for you.

726
01:00:55,560 --> 01:01:01,320
So as always, this has been Pivotal Conversations. If you want to, uh, get the easiest way to look at

727
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:07,800
all the past episodes, find the RSS feed to subscribe to and see what kind of corny spam bots have liked

728
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:12,760
our episodes. You can go to soundcloud.com slash Pivotal Conversations with no space

729
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:16,680
or anything. Uh, we've got a lot, a lot of fun episodes there, including the one last week we

730
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:21,400
talked about. And also if you want to see the full show notes, we post those, uh, more or less every

731
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:29,080
Thursday, uh, over at pivotal.io slash podcast. You can scroll down and find ours. We have a excellent,

732
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:34,520
uh, commentary about a chicken smoothie innovation that last week that you'll see there. Uh, we'll see what

733
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:39,800
quote we get this week. Uh, but it'd be great if you, uh, if, if you, if you subscribe to the podcast

734
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:44,520
over an iTunes or overcast or whatever, and it's always good if you recommend it to other people

735
01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:50,360
and, uh, and post things about it. And, uh, you know, I insert our, our events and other ads in there,

736
01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:55,160
but, uh, check out the other podcasts that we have, uh, that the moment, the moment or that moment

737
01:01:55,160 --> 01:02:01,480
podcast, and then, uh, pivotal insights and, uh, pivotal life and other things like that. And with that,

738
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:02,660
We'll see everyone next time.

739
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:03,320
Bye-bye.