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Hey there. I wanted to tell you about a new podcast we got going over here at Pivotal.

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It's called That Moment. Don't get confused like I was initially. It's not the moment.

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It's called That Moment. That Moment explores the pivot that changes everything,

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transformation, DevOps cloud native stuff, go subscribe to That Moment wherever you get your

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podcast. But, you know, for your weekly dose of unprofessional old school podcast rambling,

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let's get on with the show. So do you, in your household, it's well-established. You got lots

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of rain slickers, probably hiking boots, but do you have a juicer? I don't. No juicer. I haven't

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really totally embraced the Pacific Northwest yet. I need to make my own juicers and whatever

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avocado spreads, things like that. Oh yeah. Well, well, you got to watch out with those

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avocado spreads. You might not be able to afford a mortgage. That's what I've read. Thorough

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analysis from down under. Yeah. Well, no, but I was at my mother's this past weekend and, uh,

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she has one of these gigantic constructs. I, I, I even, I shudder to think how much it costs,

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like a big silver thing. It's a wonderfully crafted machine. Uh, I forget the name of the brand or

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whatever. But, uh, so, so I was there, uh, uh, on Sunday morning, which is yesterday for us. I went

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and bought like a bunch of, uh, you know, carrots and fruit and even kale all in. I also bought probably

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like three pounds of chicken. It was only $26 and I bought like organic stuff. Did you put the chicken

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in there? Well, I did ask my mom if she had ever juiced meat, but I didn't experiment with that.

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I, she also has one of those Traeger grills. So that's where I put the chicken to kind of smoke it.

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I mean, if you, I still need to experiment. If you were pioneering a chicken smoothie, I mean,

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I think that was going to warrant some discussion here. Yeah. Well, you know, there's only so much

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innovation I can do every year and, uh, I don't, I don't want to push the boundaries, but

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this is just, it's just this phenomenal thing. This juicer, you just like, uh, you just like put

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a bag of carrots in there and you got carrot juice. It's, I don't know. I, I, of course, my wife,

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uh, Kim used to be a big juicer person and, uh, had a juicer. So I, I asked her, I was rambling

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through a question and I was like, all right, here's what I'm really asking. Is a juicer the kind of

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thing that you get and you use for like a month and then it's just in the way I, you never use it.

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And she also short circuited the answer and said, we're not going to get a juicer. So there you go.

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It'll sit right next to the bread maker you have in the house.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you've already got that situation with, uh, with, you know,

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at least under our cabinets, right? Like there's, I think there's a food dehydrator underneath there.

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And, uh, we got, we got a, we got a full on Cuisinart. We've got the mini Cuisinart. And then,

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uh, we have one of those, um, what were they popular a couple of years ago? Bullets or

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something like that. Ninja bullets. I don't know what they are. And then, and then we also have,

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I bought this, my wife likes pickling. So I bought her this Japanese pickling Tupperware thing,

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which I think she's forgotten about. I need to get that out and pickle things.

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That's awesome. Yeah. Making beef jerky and pickles. It's a, it's a party at your house.

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But you know, you know, not unlike buying a private juicer, there's been a lot of private cloud news

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recently. Well, a lot, I don't know. There's a lot in your list. And I'm, I'm, I, I actually was,

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uh, on my other, uh, podcast software defined talk, we were talking about, uh, a couple episodes back,

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like what it would look like if, if Amazon had a private cloud and many people, including my cohost

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reminded me that Amazon does have that snowball thing, uh, which, you know, I had thought that it

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was like a big semi truck, but I saw another article from maybe last year that there was actually kind

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of like a desktop size device. Maybe, I don't know if it's a rack or whatever that, uh, maybe it was

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something else. And I remember reading to that article and it's basically, uh, you probably,

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you know, you're more of a details person than I am. You probably remember the details, but it,

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you know, basically has like a terabyte of storage and like probably an S3 interface and Lambda in it

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or something like that. But that was a, uh, that was a, I don't know, an interesting thing that's

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out there. It'd be, it'd be fun to go talk with some, uh, whoever would know this, like how that's

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doing. I shouldn't, I should talk. Yeah. I mean, I think that's more storage stuff. I mean,

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they have the, uh, totally, uh, they have the gov cloud, which is kind of private cloudy and they

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have VPC virtual private cloud, which is kind of private cloudy. So I think, you know, they'd be

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grudgingly embraced the reality that, that most enterprises. Yeah. And so I, I bring that up because

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I think, I think, uh, well, I, I was most heavily involved in, as I like to joke, when we call it the

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cloud wars of like, uh, let's call it 2009 to 2013. I, I, I worked at a, uh, well, I worked at Dell

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doing cloud strategy and software strategy. So I spent a lot of time looking at different options

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and things like that. And, you know, that I think, I think, uh, I think, um, I think, I think what we

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have in front of us here in our show notes, including my Amazon one are, are, I guess there's, there's

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at least four ideas of private cloud. The first one, I forget what, uh, what rhetorical trick this is.

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You always put a, uh, a pig without lipstick out there just to be eliminated. But the first idea

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is not doing private cloud, which is always very popular that the old, uh, the old no private cloud

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or whatever. So we'll just set that pig aside, make some thick pork chops out of it, put it on the

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Traeger and enjoy some freshly squeezed watermelon juice. You know, on that note, there's a lot of water

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in a watermelon and it doesn't taste as good as like the watermelon juice I get at the store. I don't

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know what, uh, I know what the difference is, but, um, anyhow. So then the other one, like, I think,

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I think, um, I think, uh, the Azure stack, which is supposedly coming out in September probably is,

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I shouldn't be so dismissive. Uh, that seems to represent like the, uh, uh, you could almost call

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it the classic idea of a private cloud. I mean, I don't know, you'll have to, you'll have to correct

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me if you've read through the details, but as I've been reading through it, it's basically like,

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here's Azure on your own hardware, just sort of like, and it's compatible and it's maybe it doesn't

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have everything. Like, I guess to do really fast and effective, like, uh, whatever the machine

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learning and stuff is, I mean, that's big parallel processing. So you probably need that, you know,

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that's hard to have in a three node thing that they start with. But anyways, that seems like the

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first model, which is like almost an exact duplication of, of what you would get, uh, what you would get

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off premise on premise. Is that, is that your impression of what's in, in a Azure stack?

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Yeah. I mean, the Azure stack stuff, I think is like, look, I want to run this, but it'd be to

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your originally when it first got announced, it was, Hey, run this on your hardware. And then in the

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link, you know, I think that we have in the show notes and others, you know, Scott Guthrie,

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the team there talked about more like, no, this should be a converged appliance. Cause some of the

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reason that things like open stack struggled is they were just so many pieces that people struggle

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to weave together. So what you want is a box from Dell that just has the software on top.

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And then you pay us per hour for VMs and apps, just like you would in public cloud. So yeah,

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it's just kind of like, here is cloud in a box, which you hate that term, but that's, that's what

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this model kind of is. Yeah. Yeah. And that cloud in a box thing, like it's always, uh, it's always

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frustrating on multiple angles. I mean, one, you know, the, uh, the, the hipsters of cloud,

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everything's frustrating to them, right? Like they, they just, they, they, they don't want all the

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olds coming in and like defining something that's actually useful and that works. So, you know,

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that's that, that seems to annoy them to no end, which is fine. You know, I get it. Uh,

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here I am juicing stuff, right? Like instead of having my, uh, sunny D, but the other frustrating

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thing is like, it must be like technologically and businessly, is that a word hard to actually make a

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cloud in a box? Because I don't think it's ever really been done. It's never been done. Like after

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all, I mean, that's, I think that's, yeah, yeah, exactly. The hipsters probably say like, we've

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tried this. I mean, this is Microsoft's third try at this. Like this has not been successful to some

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extent, because a, it feels like there's a lot of promise. But then when you look at the caveats,

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it's not worth it. And then you still have to figure out how to update this software. It's not

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as transparent as the public cloud. And what happens when you have scale challenges and all the promise

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sounds fantastic. And then the minute you start trying to do it, you realize, meh, I might as well

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just keep doing what I'm doing or just use public cloud. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, one,

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one theory, which, uh, I don't know if I agree with it or not, but like I, I pulled out this quote

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from, uh, the horror mentioned Scott Guthrie. He's an interesting character to track his career.

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He'd be a good, uh, if there was enough interest in the world and this kind of thing, he would be

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the kind of person you would write like a, uh, like a biography about that was a way of telling

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the history of, of contemporary tech and how, how it works out. But anyways, uh, like he has this

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quote basically saying to summarize it, that like, uh, when people build their own IT, they tend to want

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to customize it a lot and that's not going to work, right? Like we're basically going to have like

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more or less a, uh, again, to use all my own wording, like a black box and you have to work

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with the vendors to have it all integrated together. And that makes a cloud notion work out.

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And that seems like, um, I mean, that would be one backward looking theory I would have is that each

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time, each time people have tried to make a cloud in the box, either they allow too much customization

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or the IT departments buying them want to do too much customization. And, and that, I don't know.

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I mean, I could see that that could pan out certainly in the instance of, um, all of the

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Pivotal Cloud Foundry installs out there. Like, I don't, I don't think there's a lot of room for

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variation in, in, in the stack, right? Like, like it's basically like whatever infrastructure

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pools you have out there, just give, give, uh, give Pivotal Cloud Foundry the credentials and

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slowly walk away. Just like allow it to take over.

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Yeah. I mean, that's, I mean, in my experience, most private clouds start as IT projects.

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And the problem is that it does not take into account what public cloud got, right? Which

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was a good developer experience. And so there's always been that disconnect. And frankly, no

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private cloud will ever be successful unless you get the software right. It doesn't matter

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what your infrastructure looks like. It doesn't matter where you stick it. If you do not put

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the right interface on top, you don't have the right abstractions on top. You're just wasting

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your time, at least in my, uh, hot take opinion.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that, that was another thing. Like even back when I was in the, uh,

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the old cloud wars was the, uh, I, uh, I mean, I think it was a good thing, but I spent a lot

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of, uh, failed attempts to try to talk with everyone about like, what's the point of using

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this cloud stuff, which, which is a stack atop of what you're just saying is like the software

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that you're actually running on this cloud, the workloads, as they would say, are incredibly

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important to think about because that will drive what it is you're going to be doing with

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cloud. Right. Like if all you want, like this was a very, uh, there were a couple of popular

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notions back then that everyone had. One of them was, I don't think they thought of it this

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way, but it was just like cheaper virtualization. Right. And this is a very like, this is a very

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like nineties, 2000 view of what, what the it department does or what a significant part of the

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it department, which is, uh, I have no idea really what applications you're running on top

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of me, but I provide these SLA. It's a very SRE kind of thing. I provide these SLAs of

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availability and costs and uptime of all the infrastructure underneath it. And so a lot of

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the cloud thing I would come across was like, I want to do that same thing. And then I don't

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really know what people are going to run on top of it, which for storage and things like

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that maybe is a good idea and stuff like that. But I think it's, it was always troublesome

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for just shifting your, uh, your off the shelf software onto it. And then the, uh, the

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other thing I would encounter a lot would be, uh, bursting, which, which is sort of like,

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which I don't know, I haven't really done a, uh, anything but my usual, like, uh, thinking

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in the shower at three and when I can't go to sleep analysis of bursting. But I think it

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was just a variation of like, I don't want to pay a lot for that muffler. Right. It was

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sort of like every now and then I need more capacity and I'm just going to magically burst

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into the public cloud to use capacity. Well, it's almost like the whole private cloud value

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prop. Again, it sounds brilliant. And then you realize like, I have no app workloads that

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can magically scale geographies with and copy their state and run functionally. Like what

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is SharePoint going to cloud burst? Like what did you have that was going to magically work

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4,000 miles away in someone else's data center by flipping over a load balancer? Like you don't

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have those apps. So again, that's, that's, that's exactly, that's exactly the point where

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we're both making is like the software that you're running on top of all of this, be it

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the, the platform abstraction layers stuff that you were mentioning or the actual applications

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that we were both talking about. Like that's, that's, uh, that's both key to needing to do

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some sort of cloud thing. And then also key to like it working. Yeah. I mean, you and I

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have seen, Coté, if you look at our favorite analyst firms, you know, survey after survey

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shows 50%, whatever the number is of shops saying they have a private cloud. I think in

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my mind, 10% of those shops actually have a private cloud. The rest of them have a virtualization

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layer or maybe some sort of cloud management platform on top. But look, I mean, private

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cloud might be getting interesting again because we finally are figuring out the right software

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abstractions and sure we're biased. And I say, if you stick pivotal cloud foundry on top

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of open stack or vSphere, you might finally have something useful. And that's maybe we're

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actually at that point where location can matter less. And I can drop an Azure

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Azure stack pod in my data center. I can use these other things because the software has

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finally delivered the sort of experience that developers care about.

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Yeah. And to that end, I mean, I think, I think it'll be fun to see, uh, uh, what happens

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with Azure stack, right? Like, I mean, I think, I think there'll definitely, well, without a

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doubt, there'll be many use cases where it works because otherwise it probably wouldn't

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be released as a product at this point, but you'd be surprised, but yeah, no, I agree with

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you. Yeah. No, I, yeah. What, what, what I mean, what I mean to say is I think, I think

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in this area over the past, what's this year over the past 10 years, I think Microsoft has

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built up a lot of credibility in a release like this, right? Uh, now, uh, that will also

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be interesting is what you were talking about as if, as if the notion is if you get enough

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feelers that the notion of private cloud, like makes sense. And the, in the, the simple classical

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definition, right. And that's what, I mean, we, we see, in fact, if I was looking at the

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stats recently, like the huge majority of our customers run in private cloud mode, I'm putting

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that in air quotes, whatever, whatever it may be. Right. Uh, and like that seems to be working out

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for them. And so outside of the, the sort of cloud foundry world, uh, it would be interesting

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to see how that applies more broadly. And then to the point of analysts covering it and people being

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confused about it, like it could be, uh, it'd be fun if that was very well defined and actually

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worked out the way people wanted. And, uh, it's, it'd be an opportunity for, uh, all sorts of

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interesting shifts in the topology. Absolutely. I'm just stringing together a bunch

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Yeah. I mean, we all thought, I think even four years ago that the, it was an inevitable march

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to public cloud. Like there was just no, and I'm, again, I'm a giant believer. I think that's where

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it makes a ton of sense, but if you do can get it right on prem, there's enough reasons to say,

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look, I'm going to take advantage of the assets I have. I'm going to take advantage of my own

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geographies and things like that. Like that's not terrible if you get the software right. We might

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actually be there. So, so then that brings up, uh, in my, in my, uh, categorization off the top of my head,

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the, what were we on the fourth sort of thing? And that, and, and, you know, it's kind of related

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to, uh, Google's announcement around some BPC stuff they have going on. And you do see,

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I've, I've heard many fanciful terms for this. I used to call it the public private cloud,

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but essentially, or a managed service managed, a managed cloud is another way of thinking about it,

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but there are all sorts of schemes. One of the things private cloud might be is like,

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it's private by network isolation and having your network all isolated and closed off.

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So you don't, in this, in this public pride scenario, public pride, public private cloud

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scenario, you don't actually run the data centers or, uh, update them, but it's not like all your

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stuff is, you know, on the public cloud. It's more isolated. It's like an old colo sort of situation.

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And, you know, plenty of companies that seems popular, right? And they still, yeah. So yeah,

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I mean, a couple of years ago, if you remember, there were a spat of companies offering Heroku

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did this others where they actually were doing some physical isolation of assets and kind of calling

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it virtual private. And that was interesting. And then it kind of slowed down, but you know,

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what Google announced with their virtual private cloud, it's, I'm impressed because that's a hard

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thing to replicate with your own private cloud. The VLAN stretching, they're doing some of the

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cross-site networking, the tenancy they're setting up, the expandability of your subnet. Like they're

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just doing some really cool stuff that would be hard to do in your own private cloud. So if I can

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use your model four and say, look, this thing is still either network or physically isolated or both,

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and I can really configure this thing quickly, gosh, that adds a ton of value. So I mean, why do it

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yourself? Yeah, yeah. It is like, uh, what, you know, I, and, and it brings up another thing I'm,

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I'm kind of stuck on when it comes to like cloud theory, which is, I mean, I have to assume after

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reading like the, uh, you know, everything we know about Google and other public clouds, and also

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kind of reading the SRE book, like a lot of, a lot of, and I'm generalizing here as, as we talked

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about earlier, but a lot of public clouds, uh, or cloud stuff starts with, uh, Hey, stop tinkering,

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right? Like don't customize stuff. Like you're only going to have like so many t-shirts in the drawer,

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sort of like the classic, I don't know if, if, if the, uh, the females in the tech world are like

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this, but there's a subculture of males in the tech world, I guess, starting with Steve jobs,

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who basically have one outfit and they have 50, 50 copies of it in their wardrobe. And, uh, you know,

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it's sort of like, that seems to be the cloud approach is if you want to get all these efficiencies,

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you, uh, you, you can either think of it as standardizing or constraining, which are kind

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of the same thing. And, uh, you know, again, across those models, it's, it'll be interesting

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to see how Azure stack deals with that. And then what the, what the acceptance or kickback is from

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it. Right. And then in something like a, uh, your public private cloud or virtual, you know, whatever,

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like that stuff's inherited in there. Of course, that's how a public cloud works out. And, uh,

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that's certainly like in our world, I feel like, I don't know, you do a lot more like, uh, sales help

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and, and, uh, competitive stuff than I do anymore. But like, uh, there's, there's probably a low

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double digit percentage of objection questions that are basically like, your point is moot, right? Like

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the thing you're asking about made sense, but it's sort of like, uh, it's like, I, I made this old

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cartoon way back when I remember those talking dinosaurs and they're talking about one of them is

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talking about like, uh, here's this new horseless carriage thing I call a car. And then the other

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dinosaur is like, yeah, but where do I hitch the horses up to? And like, it seems like there's a,

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a fair amount of where do I hitch the horses up to questions when you have a huge amount of

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standardization, but, uh, you know, I don't know. There you go. So, so what else, uh, what else do

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we have going on this week news wise, or I guess last week?

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One thing I, uh, added to the list was we announced the, uh, the formal project of spring cloud

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function. So this was something that our, uh, esteemed James Watters mentioned in the wall

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street journal, what like last December. And everyone was like, Oh, I guess we have a new

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product, which was awesome. So this is the actual delivery of some of that work. So what this is,

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is a Java framework library model for building more serverless, like Java apps. And what's cool is that

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there's a number of unique things in here. So if you do like using Lambda, right? This isn't a

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function as a service. This is not a Lambda replacement or Google cloud function replacement.

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This is the app sort of framework that actually runs the app. So it's got some cool things like,

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Hey, separating how you triggered the thing from the thing. So here's my logic. And just by adding

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a library kind of a runtime or kind of after I've built it, it would get triggered by a Kafka message

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or a rabbit message or an HTTP call. And so that's kind of cool to be able to separate that. And then

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Java is sometimes seen as heavyweight, but the fact that you can pass a string in to an endpoint and

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we'll actually then compile it into a beam that you can then execute later as a function. That's a

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very lightweight thing, right? It's not a whole big for that project. So we're doing some things to

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kind of make Java more lightweight, more triggered on demand. It's a really cool project. It's not

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generally available yet, but you can now run the code. I've built a few projects with it just to try it

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out. So some really neat stuff. I think it's a cool reimagining of what it means to do on demand

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invocation of Java apps. It's pretty cool to see us innovating there.

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Yeah. You know, maybe you can tell me what this is, but I've noticed over the past three months

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to evoke them in kind of a joking way, all the hipsters are just like freaked out about

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serverless being awesome. They even have like, is this Jeff thing? What is that?

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Yeah. Yeah. Is that some sort of serverless thing or something? What's the story with that?

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It is. I don't know where the name came from. Someone will correct this, but yeah, I mean,

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it's hit a fever pitch. And again, I think it's great stuff. I'm just not yet on the bandwagon

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that says this is the entire future of computing. I'm just not there yet.

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Yes. Well, well, they'll do some further research. What's this Jeff thing? I'm writing that in the show

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notes. Yeah. And how come it's not called Larry? I mean, Larry is always there just waiting to be

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used. I'm right. I'm waiting for Jessica Conner or Larry Conn for something.

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Oh, yeah. And then also often dot net land. What you had some news there. There's circuit breakers

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in steel tone. That's right. Which again, if I said that statement to my parents, they would say,

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what do you do for a living? What the hell circuit breakers? That's right. As they say in other

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podcasts, did you just have a stroke? What does that mean? So steel toe is the dot net libraries

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that we've built. It's open source stuff that lets dot net devs connect to things like spring cloud

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services like, hey, use a config store, use a service discovery engine, use these connectors to talk to

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things like Redis and Rabbit, just kind of make dot net apps a little more cloud native. So one thing

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we've added, which had been a high request was hysterics. This is that Netflix library that does

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kind of, if you think bulkhead pattern, protect your apps, right? That if this app fails, kind of

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gracefully catch that and maybe use a fallback and, you know, return some empty results or something like

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that. So it's meant to protect your apps when you have these distributed systems. So we've added that

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now to steel toe. So I can build dot net apps that have this sort of protection from fault, and then it

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can feed the metrics to the same dashboard the Java spring user would use. So I can see, hey, this circuit's

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open, or this circuit's closed. And that means, you know, we're using a fallback response instead of the

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default one. So just some really cool visibility into a really popular Netflix project. Now that's all part of

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the dot net library. It's neat stuff seeing that pick up.

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Yeah. And then the last thing. So, you know, we talked about Microsoft sales reorg the other day, and, and, and I

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finally actually went and read up about it. So I, you know, I'll put a link in the show notes, but I wrote

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up some little notes and other articles about that. And I think, I think it was, was, you know, from my

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perspective, like, what's interesting about it is to think about how the, how you can do some sort of reverse

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tea leaf reading that might be redundant about how, how people organize their sales force, hopefully, is I

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always, I'm always dodgy on the tail and the wagging tail dog situation, but like, it's good to have

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one of those, you know, the, the actual way, uh, the market works being, I think the dog, and then how

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your sales force is organized being the tail. I forget, but I think that's the right version of it.

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Right. And, uh, there's also, I, I found some, uh, some good IDC hardware, uh, uh, private public

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cloud, sort of like market share estimates, which those are always fun to look at because it gives you a,

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uh, I mean, you know, they're like five year into the future forecasting, but it's, it's fun to like

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see a hundred percent area chart about how something like private cloud and public cloud starts to eat

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away at, uh, at traditional infrastructure. If you're into, uh, didn't you say a while back that

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it's sometimes tricky to go do some retrospectives on analyst predictions from years ago? Like, I mean,

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it's interesting on these, like, what's the 2017 prediction from all the firms? Would we already have

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windows phone dominance and a private cloud everywhere? Like what's I, I haven't looked

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myself, but we should be doing some, uh, well, well, since you asked to have a mini,

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mini rant about analyst land, which, which I, I feel like I have a, a permission card to do so.

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Uh, but, uh, you know, I don't, so, so the issue there is, well, there's two issues. One, um,

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over the course of like five year, 10 years back, I don't think the analysts do that. Um, and I don't

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know if IDC does this, but, but a lot of analyst firms will retire their research, which to me is just

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confounding. Um, but, um, which, which is to say it's no longer available. And so I think,

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you know, I think at IDC who I think they're the best ones for, um, forecasting and market sizing,

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just because, uh, I don't know, reliability and forecasting is not really a thing. I know that

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sounds absurd, but that's not the number one metric I would use. I mean, I would use consistency and the

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time that they've been doing it and that you have the same kind of people working on it. So you get

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a consistent view of stuff. Like I remember when I went into four or five, one research, uh, um,

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I replaced, uh, Rachel Chalmers who had headed up the infrastructure software practice. And so at some

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point very early on, I went to go talk with the four or five, one micro market sizes for the

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infrastructure software business. And my first notion was like, we got to completely redo this,

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which, which was just because it was my view of the market. Right. And that would have been

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terrible because then it would have, you know, there's no consistency, uh, across it. Anyhow.

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So, you know, I think if you dig, you can actually get a lot of historic data from IDC. Like I think

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if you get their black book product, uh, I think it goes back a long time and I think you can get

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past versions of it, but they don't really make it easy. Like you would want where you're, there's

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just some page you go to and you see like, let's rate how accurate we were, uh, about these things.

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And at IDC, at least within like a kind of like a two or three year period and especially quarterly

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period, they'll tell you when they correct a forecast. So they're kind of okay, but it's not

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that easy. And then like, uh, you know, Gartner might be a little bit like that with their big,

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uh, with their, uh, they don't, they don't call it a black book, but they might have that data.

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But, but in general, like Gartner is the one that will like archive their research as if

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like the stuff isn't valid anymore, which to some extent it's not valid, but it's really

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hard to get a historic perspective of it. I don't know. Plus you got to pay for all that

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stuff, which, you know, I'm sympathetic to that. I think we can all agree on money. Uh,

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and so it's in, unless you have analyst access, it's, it's pretty hard to go do that. And I,

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and I think this does create an annoying situation. The, uh, uh, the aforementioned hipsters,

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which are sort of like the ones who would complain about this stuff the most don't actually have

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access to the research. So it's sort of like they're theoretic, they're complaining about

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something that they read about in blogs and Twitter and press releases, which I think I'll,

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I'll end my rant here. I think that was a, uh, I guess this was in like 2015 and 2016,

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there was a lot of complaining about bimodal IT and it's just like, well, there's, you know,

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like a whole bunch of Gartner material on that. And you should probably read all of that

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before you complain about it, but you don't have access to it. So it was like, uh, sort of tragic,

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not, not that, not that the complainers are wrong, but it was just more like you got to have a common

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pool of stuff you're complaining about. Yeah. I don't know the solution to all that,

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but when analysts are considered justifiably, so, uh, you know, a source of, of knowledge and

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authority in these spaces, when their research is behind a paywall, it can make it tricky when,

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you know, the numbers float around in the conference slide. And we're going to help it.

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That number come from, like, how did you get that? So I don't know how you solve that,

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but it seems like, yeah, you know, I, I, I was talking with some, uh, let's call them vendor

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side people recently in the cloud space. And, and of course we started complaining about analysts

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and everyone's always very kind. They're like, well, except when you did this work, Coté,

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which is fine. I don't know if that's the case. I go back and read my stuff every now and

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then it's not always so awesome. But, uh, you know, what I tell people about like Gartner,

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uh, is they have this thing called the Gartner technology professionals, which, uh, I think that's

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what it is. I think it's plural. And, uh, that's the old Burton group. And I'd never, until I came

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to pivotal and had access to all of this, I'd never really read it except a stray pirated report

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here and there. Uh, but, uh, they actually produce, I shouldn't say actually, cause I'm not judging the

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other side, the, what do they call it? The, the, uh, the leader people or something.

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Something like that.

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Yeah. Like I, I think the GTP people, like they do, um, from the perspective of like companies,

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uh, you know, that are considering technology, it's actually the GTP people that do the, the,

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the maximal amount that you would expect them to, which is what is your advice on how I would use

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this software and what I would do? Like, that's all they cover. And they have these like 50,

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60 page tomes on like, I mean, there's one on like, uh, you know, cloud platforms and there'll

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be one on Hadoop. And it really is like a very thorough analysis, uh, that you would look at

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if you were evaluating and even trying to figure out how to use these things. And, you know,

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they do that on the other side to some extent, like there'll be some advice about, uh, selecting

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things and shortlisting, like with the magic quadrant. But I generally, what I tell people is

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generally like industry analysts, a lot of people forget that first word, like their job is to

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tell you what's happening in the industry primarily and what the vendor sports are and the rankings and

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the trends and their job, their secondary job in order to inform that is always to kind of like

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know what you would actually do and how things work, but that's their secondary job. And so you can't

363
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really like, you shouldn't really go to them, only go to them for advice about what you would

364
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:05,080
actually do. You should go to also people like the, uh, GTP folks and stuff.

365
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,200
Well, we just have to get read on again soon and gab all analysts. Thanks.

366
00:30:08,620 --> 00:30:09,760
That's right. That's right.

367
00:30:13,500 --> 00:30:18,620
Hey, it's interstitial mid-roll stuff. I just wanted to promote a few upcoming pivotal things

368
00:30:18,620 --> 00:30:23,100
here through June, July, and August. We had the cloud native roadshow coming to all sorts of cities.

369
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,960
This is a free day long event we do with Google that goes over what exactly cloud native is and how

370
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:33,040
our customers are using pivotal and Google technologies and approaches. The cities, and this is a long list.

371
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:37,620
So get ready. The cities are Stuttgart, Dallas, Denver, LA, Seattle, San Francisco, Amsterdam,

372
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:42,920
Seoul, Hong Kong, Sydney, and Singapore. There's a big list of dates that you can look at. You can

373
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,540
check out the show notes for a link to it, or if you just want to go and Google for pivotal cloud

374
00:30:46,540 --> 00:30:51,820
native roadshow, you'll find it pretty easily. We also have spring days Atlanta coming up July 18th

375
00:30:51,820 --> 00:30:56,280
and 19th. It's chock full of sessions for developers who want to learn more about the spring framework,

376
00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:02,460
cloud native style development, and of course, to be fully buzzword compliant, microservices. If you go to

377
00:31:02,460 --> 00:31:06,760
springdays.io, you can get more info. And that's the last spring days we're having so far that we

378
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:11,780
have scheduled this year. So get that one in if you're over in grits and pork land. It'll be good

379
00:31:11,780 --> 00:31:17,260
stuff. Finally, why it's way in the future. We also have a SpringOne platform coming up December 4th

380
00:31:17,260 --> 00:31:21,220
and 5th. Now registration just opened recently for this. I think you might've missed the early bird

381
00:31:21,220 --> 00:31:26,540
thing for it, but that's fine. There's also still the CFP open. It closes on September 1st.

382
00:31:26,540 --> 00:31:30,880
Now, what goes on at this conference? Well, it's full of what I would call the suit track

383
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:36,020
and the technology track. In the suit track, you've got case studies and managers and developers

384
00:31:36,020 --> 00:31:40,760
as well, but organizations talking about how they've transformed their company and what they're doing

385
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:44,600
with cloud native and their organizations, how they're getting good results by switching over

386
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:49,740
to doing things in more of a pivotal way. But then there's also plenty of events for those of you out

387
00:31:49,740 --> 00:31:54,960
there who enjoy more nerding out and doing technical things to check out. I'm one of the chairs of the

388
00:31:54,960 --> 00:32:01,100
DevOps pipeline and monitoring track that we informally call it. We've already got lots of

389
00:32:01,100 --> 00:32:05,280
excellent talks queued up from the likes of Home Depot, Express Scripts, Allstate Northern Trust,

390
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:10,200
and of course, plenty of pivotal people. I'll be speaking in that track if that's anything. So come

391
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,000
on there. Again, it's in San Francisco, December 4th and 5th. And if you just go to

392
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:19,120
springplatform.io, you can check it all out. And with that, enjoy the episode this week.

393
00:32:19,740 --> 00:32:29,260
Well, so we don't have a guest in case you can't tell. So other than drawing out our new segment,

394
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:35,560
as we have successfully done, you know, Richard had the good idea to go over stuff that we're

395
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:41,740
working on, which seems good. Always easy to talk about yourself. So let's start with you,

396
00:32:41,780 --> 00:32:48,180
Richard. What's the stuff you got going on? Do you got some sort of desk situation? Are you one of

397
00:32:48,180 --> 00:32:55,900
these people who keeps a bunch of logos, icons on your desktop? Or do you have an intricately

398
00:32:55,900 --> 00:33:04,040
organized file system? Or third option, do you have the iCloud slash Google Docs view of the world,

399
00:33:04,460 --> 00:33:08,800
which is a flat file system, but isolated somewhere?

400
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:14,800
Good question. I mean, my desktop itself has no icons. I don't like a messy desktop. But then,

401
00:33:14,860 --> 00:33:20,060
you know, some light organization in a pivotal folder of docs. And I use G Drive for stuff as well. But,

402
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,980
you know, try to keep things fairly organized as I'm writing and reading. And, you know,

403
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:29,480
day job is supposed to be leading our product marketing team. But I do like to research and write a lot of

404
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:35,280
stuff. So yeah, the things I'm working on at the moment are, I just posted this morning, a take on

405
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:40,200
cloud native integration. What does that mean? I did some research and did a presentation on that at a

406
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,620
conference a couple weeks ago in London, and it was well received. And so just kind of exploring that

407
00:33:44,620 --> 00:33:49,200
more, what does it mean to modernize your integration practice? You know, how is that sometimes accidentally

408
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,300
holding you back? Because now you've got all these 12 factor apps, and you're doing CICD, and

409
00:33:53,300 --> 00:33:57,820
everything absolutely grinds to a halt, because your ESB team is backlogged for three months.

410
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:03,160
So how do you actually think about the integration piece, just like data, just like security? Because

411
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:07,160
if you don't fix all of them, it really doesn't matter how good you are at apps, because it's all

412
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:13,020
going to block up. I'll have to check that out, because, you know, I always like to overly comically

413
00:34:13,020 --> 00:34:19,060
simplify things. But I feel like there's a good 20-30% of enterprise application development that's

414
00:34:19,060 --> 00:34:24,820
basically like, I have a form that someone filled out, and three or more people have to look at it.

415
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:30,140
And then I need to, as they used to say, mash up some other data in it. And at the end, the form's

416
00:34:30,140 --> 00:34:36,800
either going to have a green checkmark or a big red X on it. And like, that general, whether it's

417
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:42,640
insurance, banking, probably even farm, all sorts of things, especially government, it seems to repeat

418
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:48,400
itself over and over again. And then to your point, like, a huge necessary component of that is

419
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:52,940
integration with not only data sources, but other processes and things like that.

420
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,820
Exactly right. It's the workflow piece. And then all this SaaS stuff is great. But what we know,

421
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,560
how the heck are you connecting to Workday? And how are you connecting to Salesforce and using this

422
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:05,700
weird cloud database? And like, that's necessary now. So it was anyway, it's a good, hopefully a good

423
00:35:05,700 --> 00:35:10,680
blog post. It's out there on my personal blog, serother.wordpress.com, and probably talk about

424
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,480
it more and more. So that was something cranked out, something for the Pivotal blog, probably this

425
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:19,780
week is my take on event-driven architecture and how, what does that really look like technology-wise?

426
00:35:19,900 --> 00:35:24,000
What does that look like kind of capability-wise? And actually, speaking of Gardner, I went through

427
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:28,420
a number of their folks and had them put some eyeballs on this to make sure I wasn't talking

428
00:35:28,420 --> 00:35:33,280
crazy. And so it's had some good peer review stuff industry-wise internally. And it'll just look at

429
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,480
what are the core components in an event-driven architecture? Yes, how does Cloud Foundry help

430
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:41,480
you with that? But frankly, I just haven't seen much in the industry around,

431
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,460
not just scenario-based. Like, if you read some of the Gardner reports, they're really,

432
00:35:44,740 --> 00:35:48,940
they're fine. But they focus on like, hey, here's one use case of how you can process events through

433
00:35:48,940 --> 00:35:54,040
Kafka and dump it out to something. Like, that's great. But if I'm a CIO and I say, okay, what do

434
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:59,440
I need to do to actually be event-driven? Like, there are not that, it's not that information out

435
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:03,740
there. So I thought I'd write that up as kind of a reference architecture from my old enterprise

436
00:36:03,740 --> 00:36:08,580
architecture days, like doing reference architectures. So put one of those out. We'll see if it

437
00:36:08,580 --> 00:36:10,540
lands with a thud or people go, yay.

438
00:36:13,780 --> 00:36:17,040
How do you judge that nowadays? The thud or the yay?

439
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:22,640
I've given up because there's times where I will handcraft a blog post and think that this will go

440
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:27,440
viral. And then you get like one comment on Twitter and a few hits. Other times I'll do like a throwaway

441
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:32,860
thing and that goes nuts. So I've given up predicting what people care about. I just try to include more

442
00:36:32,860 --> 00:36:36,900
memes and cat GIFs because that seems to drive traffic.

443
00:36:37,700 --> 00:36:42,160
Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think I'm more or less in the same thing. I think over the course of a year,

444
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:49,320
there's sort of like sheer metrics you can look at. Like, you know, I think that cloud native

445
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:55,220
whatever book I have, like that gets downloaded like 15 or 20 times a week at this point or something.

446
00:36:55,360 --> 00:37:01,160
And so, you know, over time that's meaningful. But, you know, it's mostly confounding. Like the

447
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:05,080
things that people end up liking, I don't know what the deal is.

448
00:37:05,220 --> 00:37:09,380
No, I mean, the most popular blog post I still have on my own personal blog is something I wrote

449
00:37:09,380 --> 00:37:13,860
years ago on where should you host your Node.js app. Like somehow that's like the number two hit

450
00:37:13,860 --> 00:37:18,280
every day on the damn blog. It drives me crazy. So, but again, you just don't know what has good

451
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:22,740
lasting power. And that's fine. Many of the things we write today will actually be more popular a month

452
00:37:22,740 --> 00:37:26,980
from now or longer. And either way, you just have to put yourself out there. Maybe you're wrong.

453
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,500
And sometimes I appreciate that too, because someone will yell at you and you have to read the comments.

454
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:36,080
Yeah. I think the number one thing I write stuff on nowadays is just not word of mouth on the

455
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:40,600
classical thing, but people actually saying something, whether it's online or at conferences or

456
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:45,280
whatever. Cause that, uh, like, uh, I don't know for the, for the kind of people that the kind of

457
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:49,660
audience and market or whatever you want to call it, that we work with, there's not that many of them.

458
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:55,460
And so like, like the, uh, the actual numbers of people looking at something are very small, but,

459
00:37:55,680 --> 00:38:02,880
but the, you know, if, if, if the right one to three, I don't know, managers or developers or

460
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:07,480
enterprise architects at some gigantic bank, look at it and like it, then it has a huge effect.

461
00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,620
And so it's, it's the, uh, I don't know what you call that kind of model.

462
00:38:11,020 --> 00:38:14,460
Well, it's kind of the aggregator I've noticed. I wrote a post on how enterprise architecture

463
00:38:14,460 --> 00:38:18,640
adjusts to the cloud and that thing blew up because it got picked up by a few different

464
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:23,420
like EA sort of aggregates who shared it out. Or, you know, if something hits the DevOps weekly

465
00:38:23,420 --> 00:38:29,260
newsletter, it blows up. So it's just interesting how certain things that collect these musings

466
00:38:29,260 --> 00:38:33,620
we throw out into the ether that, that, that, that seems to help more than just who gets

467
00:38:33,620 --> 00:38:35,120
the most retweets on the first post.

468
00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:37,320
Yeah. So what else do you got there?

469
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:42,640
Yeah. So I'm going to Denver next week to deliver another.net cloud native bootcamp. I put together

470
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:46,600
this event with Zach Brown here at pivotal where we would walk through kind of what does modern.net

471
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:50,200
look like? What the steel, how do you use steel toe? And then we spend the second half of the day

472
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:54,200
actually building apps. So we did this in Seattle a couple of weeks ago, and it was awesome to have

473
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:58,340
20 something people in the room who hadn't touched any of these tools. Some of these were admins.

474
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:03,020
This was not just devs, but kind of cranking out little bits of code, pushing in the cloud foundry,

475
00:39:03,020 --> 00:39:07,820
doing some of this crazy, you know, backing config store and service discovery stuff. So

476
00:39:08,180 --> 00:39:12,100
we got a request to take it on the road. So we'll do Denver next, probably one more city,

477
00:39:12,100 --> 00:39:16,140
and then I'll hand it off to people who like traveling all the time. But it's really neat

478
00:39:16,140 --> 00:39:20,560
to see this conversation move forward. Cloud foundry is awesome for .net. There's some cool

479
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:25,520
libraries out there and just kind of unlocking some people who thought that their career was stalled

480
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:29,880
because they were .net shop. And instead we're, we're opening that back up again, which is awesome.

481
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:36,220
So, and then coming in September, Azure stack. Yeah, that's right. Then we'll retool it all for private.

482
00:39:36,220 --> 00:39:40,620
That, you know, you know, that, that would be, that'd be, you could finally, uh, fulfill one of the

483
00:39:40,620 --> 00:39:46,240
reoccurring fantasies I have with vendors is like, why don't you just bring one of those? Right? Like maybe,

484
00:39:46,240 --> 00:39:50,940
maybe you can actually, I think I have a picture of, of my, uh, my friend on my other podcast, uh,

485
00:39:50,940 --> 00:39:57,740
Matt Ray actually rolling around a, a Dell open stack half rack, but like, if I could use a dolly

486
00:39:57,740 --> 00:40:02,540
to bring in PV, you know, Azure stack with PCF on top. And then we all just get into that. That's

487
00:40:02,540 --> 00:40:07,700
the dream. You got to get one of those just, uh, come September, call them up and have them ship

488
00:40:07,700 --> 00:40:12,660
you on. Right. Dolly as a service. That'd be awesome. So I've got the couple other things,

489
00:40:12,700 --> 00:40:17,000
just a quick mention. So for those of you who like spring cloud and development, I'm finishing up my

490
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,920
second plural site course on spring cloud. That's that video on demand.

491
00:40:20,940 --> 00:40:25,420
training Pivotal is a partner now. It's insanely popular. I've been doing it for five or six years

492
00:40:25,420 --> 00:40:29,280
now. And so I'm just about done a spring cloud course on how do you actually coordinate your

493
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:34,140
microservices? That should be six hours of fun for your family. So that's almost finished.

494
00:40:34,820 --> 00:40:40,280
And then I'm doing executive briefing in a few weeks on IOT and cloud foundry and platform. So

495
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:44,460
now I'm in the research mode for a lot of that and thinking about what are the sort of things you

496
00:40:44,460 --> 00:40:50,160
really need for modern IOT. So that jumps me back into a learning mode to find out kind of what's the

497
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,980
latest thinking on that from both a consumer perspective, but then also supply chain back

498
00:40:53,980 --> 00:40:57,560
office stuff. It seems like there's a lot of cool stuff happening there, but what tech do you

499
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,640
actually need to be successful there? So that's what I'm with.

500
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:06,160
Well, I'll have to check those out. That's all stuff that people ask me about. And supposedly,

501
00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:12,420
given the volume of noise I make after they ask me that I know something about. Although I usually say,

502
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:16,500
I don't know anything about this. And then I just proceed to talk, which is scary.

503
00:41:16,500 --> 00:41:22,400
It's scary. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so I, I only have two things I wanted to point people to like,

504
00:41:22,460 --> 00:41:28,840
so I most recently, I guess it was just last week, I was talking with one of our more recent

505
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:33,820
customers with a gaggle of enterprise architects. I think, I think that's what you call a group of

506
00:41:33,820 --> 00:41:38,640
enterprise architects, right? A gaggle. You might just call it a cab. I was talking with a cab of

507
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:44,460
enterprise architects and, uh, you know, they, they had a lot of questions about what a cloud native

508
00:41:44,460 --> 00:41:50,140
enterprise architecture is. And so I, I sort of like, and I don't know, I mean, this is, this is

509
00:41:50,140 --> 00:41:54,660
sort of like drives a lot of the way I do things. I was like, Oh, I should, uh, go collect together

510
00:41:54,660 --> 00:42:01,000
that crazy board on my virtual wall of all the stuff I've gotten and, uh, and start writing it up.

511
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:06,000
And I think, and then, and then also, uh, if, if, if you were paying attention to my sub tweeting last

512
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:10,480
week, I wrote together a talk abstract that I have now submitted to people, uh, conferences.

513
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:16,660
So I need to start gathering together all of the, uh, sort of theoretic and actual real advice case

514
00:42:16,660 --> 00:42:21,880
studies of what enterprise architecture in a cloud native world is. And as you were saying, I mean,

515
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:27,140
you sent over a, uh, a nice list of, of things, which I think that's, that's a good, uh, initial

516
00:42:27,140 --> 00:42:34,000
roundup of everything, but there's, I find on this topic, there's no end of questions and no end of

517
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:41,500
lack of answers, so to speak. Like, uh, it's, it's, as I was telling this, this, uh, this cab of

518
00:42:41,500 --> 00:42:47,000
architects, so to speak, it's only been like in the past two or three years where you actually have

519
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:54,020
more than a handful of large organizations doing anything cloud native. So what do they call that

520
00:42:54,020 --> 00:43:00,640
in economics, natural research or something like there's only, uh, there's not really enough natural

521
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:06,300
resource to exactly know everything about it, but there definitely are a lot of, uh, emerging things.

522
00:43:06,300 --> 00:43:14,180
And I think, I think the intellectual sort of, if you will, quandary that this is, is, uh, if in a

523
00:43:14,180 --> 00:43:21,500
cloud native or, or DevOps, if you prefer, uh, method, if we push down 99% of their responsibility

524
00:43:21,500 --> 00:43:28,640
down to the product teams and we connect them directly to the business, uh, what enterprise

525
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:33,260
architects do? Cause, cause classically, I don't know. I mean, you know, you having done this, you

526
00:43:33,260 --> 00:43:37,280
probably have good input on it, but classically an enterprise architect, a lot of what they do

527
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:42,080
is, I mean, there's two things. Stereotypically they do, which is the same thing. They do governance

528
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:46,700
to make sure you're not doing dumb stuff. And also that your long-term view is good. You're trying

529
00:43:46,700 --> 00:43:51,680
to prevent like technical debt, but then they also like fill in all these gaps between all the various

530
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:56,260
roles that you have. And, you know, they try to have the, uh, the lattice work that makes it so

531
00:43:56,260 --> 00:44:01,320
the business people talk to the product managers and the QA people and the ops people, and they try to

532
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:05,580
make it all sort of fit together. Hence architecture. Right. I'm supposed to kind of be the connector,

533
00:44:05,700 --> 00:44:10,040
the matchmaker in a lot of cases. It's just no, no two shops that I've ever either worked in or

534
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:14,660
talked to do EA the same way. So that's why it's so difficult. Some are like business architects.

535
00:44:14,660 --> 00:44:19,240
Like we will change how we do supply chain and how we send products to market. Others are like just

536
00:44:19,240 --> 00:44:23,880
they're technical architects and they do reference architectures and they incubate new stuff and they

537
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:27,980
work across teams and there's just no common definition. It seems like at this point.

538
00:44:28,620 --> 00:44:32,420
Yeah. And, and so like in, in talking about this with people over the past few years,

539
00:44:32,420 --> 00:44:38,680
either directly or indirectly, I think my evolving theory of, of what cloud native enterprise

540
00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:46,060
architecture is, is, um, whenever you scale up to like, you know, hundreds of teams and thousands of

541
00:44:46,060 --> 00:44:53,240
products, like to a large organization, uh, there's a lot of white space between these teams and you

542
00:44:53,240 --> 00:44:58,140
need to figure, I don't know what it is exactly, but someone has to take care of it. Otherwise it

543
00:44:58,140 --> 00:45:02,660
doesn't all like really fit together. And I think a huge part of that, and I don't know if this is

544
00:45:02,660 --> 00:45:08,860
like what an EA should do or someone else, but, um, like, I think I'll finally release this, this,

545
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:14,020
uh, conversation I had in the next episode with, with some of the all state people about setting

546
00:45:14,020 --> 00:45:18,840
this up is there's this initial year or two run where it's like, you're just setting up all this

547
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:23,920
stuff and doing the change management of getting everyone to use a common build pipeline and getting

548
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:29,180
everyone to, uh, run on a common platform and spreading out the teams and all of that. And I feel

549
00:45:29,180 --> 00:45:35,680
like an EA or the cab of EA should have a big hand in all of that because they're, they're one of the,

550
00:45:35,740 --> 00:45:41,320
one of the few people who have not only the big picture perspective, I mean, in theory, I've met

551
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:45,400
plenty of EAs who just sort of like, they can, they can direct you to the bathroom in their Ivy

552
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:50,000
tower, but they don't really know what happens out in the city. So to speak, that was a weird

553
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:54,800
metaphor. Uh, but the good EA is kind of know everything that's going on. And also equally

554
00:45:54,800 --> 00:46:00,200
importantly, they know all the internal politics of everything that goes on in the organization.

555
00:46:00,300 --> 00:46:05,980
If, if they've rose, Rosen, if they've risen to that level. And so it seems like they could be,

556
00:46:05,980 --> 00:46:10,220
uh, very helpful in, in, uh, changing things over. That's the thing. I don't know if they do it

557
00:46:10,220 --> 00:46:15,400
right. It's a good change agent. If you do it wrong, you're going to get fired. Yeah. Yeah. I always,

558
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:20,800
there's always the fired option. Anyways, speaking of snarky results for stuff. So another thing I

559
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:25,060
started doing this weekend, you know, I, I've mentioned as at my mom's house, uh, experiencing

560
00:46:25,060 --> 00:46:29,760
the pleasure of a juicer, uh, or, or I guess, I don't know if I was experiencing it as much as,

561
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:34,200
uh, appreciating its results. So I've been thinking for a while that I should collect together all my,

562
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:38,580
uh, you know, cause I'm, I'm, I'm arrogant like that. I should collect together all my register columns

563
00:46:38,580 --> 00:46:42,480
and a few other things that I've written here and there into, uh, one of those little books,

564
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:49,440
you know, have you heard of books? And, uh, and, and so I started doing that. And I think,

565
00:46:49,500 --> 00:46:52,820
I think I've got, I've got all the register pieces that make sense. There's a few of them

566
00:46:52,820 --> 00:46:58,020
that are just like too topical or, uh, to put in there, but, uh, yeah. So I started collecting

567
00:46:58,020 --> 00:47:02,460
that together and what, what I call like a paste pot book, right? Like I'm sure you've read these books

568
00:47:02,460 --> 00:47:06,720
and you read halfway through it and you're like, hold on. I think this is just a bunch of blog posts

569
00:47:06,720 --> 00:47:10,940
someone strung together. And so that's what I got going on there. And I'll see, I think I need

570
00:47:10,940 --> 00:47:16,820
maybe, I think I'm up to 20,000 words and I think you want to be at like 30 or 40,000 words before

571
00:47:16,820 --> 00:47:21,040
you have a book. Otherwise I think they call that a novella. Is that right? That's right. And, uh,

572
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:25,280
I mean, I desperately want the back cover of your book to include your best comments

573
00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:30,880
on your articles. I mean, that would just be like, not the, like Coté is a brilliant writer who really

574
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:34,620
should. No, it'd be like, here's a pot smoking hipster who doesn't understand the bobs.

575
00:47:34,900 --> 00:47:38,480
Like that's got it. We'll see. Yeah. I've, I've been talking with some people who are like

576
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:42,780
legit publisher or who have connections to legit publishers to maybe do something. But

577
00:47:42,780 --> 00:47:48,680
as always, if I get angsty and if anything, I'll just publish a PDF somewhere. And in that case,

578
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:54,120
I will definitely take, uh, the, the analysis that I'm a, uh, a Valium taking

579
00:47:54,120 --> 00:48:00,800
DevOps gonzo person is the top quote. That'll be a, yeah, that's good stuff. But yeah, I'll,

580
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:04,620
I'll put a link to both of those. Like I do with these books. I, I have them, uh, uh, publicly

581
00:48:04,620 --> 00:48:09,440
available to comment on in Google docs. And I think, uh, it's always good to get input on that stuff,

582
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:14,960
especially the first one. So, uh, before we wrap up, I mean, you've talked about this a little bit,

583
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:19,740
but I'm, I'm curious, what's your, uh, what's the tool chain you use for all this writing? You, uh,

584
00:48:19,740 --> 00:48:23,060
you use a notepad over there. What do you, what do you do for all that? How do you,

585
00:48:23,340 --> 00:48:27,580
there's, there's, there's really, well, I know the publishing tool chain, cause we both

586
00:48:27,580 --> 00:48:33,060
published to the same CMS, but like there's the collecting together your notes and research,

587
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:37,960
right? I don't know. Maybe, maybe you're like that guy, Toby in the West wing where it's just

588
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:41,960
all in your head and you don't actually have to ever write anything down. And then there's the

589
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:48,140
actually writing it. So what do you use for those things? Yeah. So it usually starts off in one note,

590
00:48:48,240 --> 00:48:51,560
but I, I've used that for years. So if I, you know, I like every note that that's where I just

591
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:55,480
gather random thoughts and start to make bulleted lists and that eventually turns into something.

592
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:59,300
And that's when I actually started, uh, Josh McKenty turned me on to using the Hemingway app.

593
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:04,700
So I stopped using so many big words and make it uncomfortable to read. So then I actually write

594
00:49:04,700 --> 00:49:09,380
whatever I'm doing, a blog post, a white paper, whatever, and Hemingway. So I get kind of a good

595
00:49:09,380 --> 00:49:14,640
feeling. I didn't accidentally get too verbose. And then I ended up probably copying it into a Google

596
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:18,560
doc so I could share it around for peer review. And then obviously we publish the same way. So that's

597
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:21,960
usually how everything flows for me, whether that's a personal blog post or whatever.

598
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:27,940
That's good. See, that's confirming because that's, I don't use the Hemingway app. I go with that every

599
00:49:27,940 --> 00:49:31,640
now and then. I'm like, I was joking about this earlier. Like, Oh man, that seems like a lot of

600
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:35,920
work with the way that I write. It's actually pretty nice, but you know, it works, but you know,

601
00:49:35,940 --> 00:49:39,760
if anything, it just helps me make, you know, when you get that red mark, when there's your sentence

602
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:42,800
is too long, it really gets in your head. So it really helps you write more succinctly.

603
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:48,100
Yeah. Yeah. No, I know. I know. I know. It's not a lot of work to put it into it. It's a lot of work

604
00:49:48,100 --> 00:49:54,560
to, if you believe it's advice, go back and fix it. That's, that's the, uh, but sure. I'm sure it

605
00:49:54,560 --> 00:50:01,100
results in clear writing, right? Like, you know, one pair of baby shoes never used. That's, that's,

606
00:50:01,100 --> 00:50:06,060
that's what you want when you're in your clean, well lit place. But anyhow, uh, yeah, that's confirming

607
00:50:06,060 --> 00:50:09,980
because that's what I always come back to. I always, I always cycle through using all sorts of stuff,

608
00:50:09,980 --> 00:50:15,380
but I don't use one note cause I'm not a Microsoft person. I use Evernote, but every now and then I

609
00:50:15,380 --> 00:50:20,080
think I'll have like plain text files with Markdown. And I tried to use that Bayer application once,

610
00:50:20,140 --> 00:50:24,480
which is lovely. If I had never used Evernote, I would probably use that Bayer application to like

611
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:29,440
collect everything together. And then, uh, I don't know, you got to put it in Google docs.

612
00:50:29,580 --> 00:50:34,580
That's like eventually everything. Yeah. Like, like that's, that's, that's like the only way to

613
00:50:34,580 --> 00:50:39,200
collaborate nowadays. I mean, the, the best way, I don't know, maybe, maybe, uh, other things are

614
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:43,800
good too, but it's just like, that's, uh, everyone has that. And I think they more or less understand

615
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:47,360
it. That's right. We're making Google's brain smarter because I'm sure it's reading all the docs.

616
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:53,440
Exactly. All right. Well, uh, with that, this is as always been Pivotal Conversations. If you want to

617
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:58,860
get the most recent episode and find the link to subscribe in the podcast, you can add little comments

618
00:50:58,860 --> 00:51:04,780
and see what weird little music spam bots over in, in, uh, in, uh, SoundCloud really like to hear

619
00:51:04,780 --> 00:51:09,940
about infrastructure software. And, uh, you know, my daughter uses that as well, uh, I think in the

620
00:51:09,940 --> 00:51:15,320
future, but you go to soundcloud.com slash Pivotal Conversations, all one word. You can check out

621
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:20,360
the, uh, the episodes there. And as always, you can go to blog, not blogs. You can go to pivotal.io

622
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:25,020
slash podcast to get the full show notes that we've mentioned, and we'll see everyone next time.