1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,380 Hello, everyone. Before we start, I just wanted to promote a few upcoming pivotal things through 2 00:00:04,380 --> 00:00:08,980 June, July, and August. We had the Cloud Native Roadshow coming to all sorts of cities. This 3 00:00:08,980 --> 00:00:12,900 is a free day-long event we do with Google that goes over what exactly Cloud Native is 4 00:00:12,900 --> 00:00:16,960 and how our customers are using pivotal and Google technologies and approaches. The cities, 5 00:00:17,060 --> 00:00:20,900 and this is a long list, so get ready. The cities are Stuttgart, Dallas, Denver, LA, 6 00:00:21,060 --> 00:00:26,040 Seattle, San Francisco, Amsterdam, Seoul, Hong Kong, Sydney, and Singapore. There's a big 7 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,620 list of dates that you can look at. You can check out the show notes for a link to it, 8 00:00:29,620 --> 00:00:33,880 or if you just want to go and Google for Pivotal Cloud Native Roadshow, you'll find it pretty 9 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:39,020 easily. We also have Spring Days Atlanta coming up July 18th and 19th. It's chock full of sessions 10 00:00:39,020 --> 00:00:42,920 for developers who want to learn more about the Spring Framework, Cloud Native style development, 11 00:00:43,460 --> 00:00:48,700 and of course, to be fully buzzword compliant, microservices. If you go to springdays.io, 12 00:00:48,820 --> 00:00:52,120 you can get more info, and that's the last Spring Days we're having so far that we have 13 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:57,360 scheduled this year, so get that one in if you're over in grits and pork land. It'll be good stuff. 14 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:03,020 Finally, why it's way in the future. We also have SpringOne platform coming up December 4th and 5th. 15 00:01:03,100 --> 00:01:06,720 Now, registration just opened recently for this. I think you might have missed the early bird thing 16 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:12,160 for it, but that's fine. There's also still the CFP open. It closes on September 1st. Now, 17 00:01:12,260 --> 00:01:16,640 what goes on at this conference? Well, it's full of what I would call the suit track and the 18 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:21,760 technology track. In the suit track, you've got case studies and managers and developers as well, 19 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:27,000 but organizations talking about how they've transformed their company and what they're doing with Cloud Native, 20 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:31,220 and their organizations, how they're getting good results by switching over to doing things in more of a 21 00:01:31,220 --> 00:01:36,880 pivotal way. But then there's also plenty of events for those of you out there who enjoy more nerding out and 22 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:43,940 doing technical things to check out. I'm one of the chairs of the DevOps pipeline and monitoring track that 23 00:01:43,940 --> 00:01:48,520 we informally call it. We've already got lots of excellent talks queued up from the likes of Home Depot, 24 00:01:48,780 --> 00:01:53,720 Express Scripts, Allstate Northern Trust, and of course, plenty of pivotal people. I'll be speaking in that track 25 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:59,220 if that's anything. So come on there. Again, it's in San Francisco, December 4th and 5th. And if you just go to 26 00:01:59,220 --> 00:02:04,360 springplatform.io, you can check it all out. And with that, enjoy the episode this week. 27 00:02:04,900 --> 00:02:09,900 Well, today, I think Richard is gallivanting around Europe. I'm not really sure what he's doing. 28 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:14,800 Hopefully, he's getting some good pastries. I had someone tell me recently, he's actually a classically trained, 29 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:22,180 as he said, French pastry chef, who was driving, well, this is right before Uber came back to Austin. But, 30 00:02:22,660 --> 00:02:27,220 you know, I guess that doesn't like preclude you needing to do a little gig economy work every now 31 00:02:27,220 --> 00:02:32,720 and then. Anyways, he was explaining how the water they use and the amount of gluten in the bread makes 32 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:37,680 the bread much more better over in Europe. I don't know. It's sort of like people from Jersey saying 33 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,780 the pizza tastes different. I'm not really sure if there's anything up with that. But anyways, 34 00:02:42,100 --> 00:02:47,100 so hopefully, he's loading up on delicious bread. We'll get a full recap. But this week, 35 00:02:47,180 --> 00:02:50,440 I've got two people on. Why don't you introduce yourself first, Tony? 36 00:02:50,860 --> 00:02:57,760 Hi, Tony Hansman. I work here at Pivotal as a platform architect. But I spent all of my career 37 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:03,560 in operations. So, mostly, I see myself as someone who goes to our customers and tells them how to do 38 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:05,260 operations with these new tool sets. 39 00:03:05,500 --> 00:03:06,200 And yourself, John? 40 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:11,640 Yeah, John, I work in product marketing, work very closely with Richard and have a lot of fun in that. 41 00:03:12,100 --> 00:03:18,800 And at Pivotal, I've been looking at the ops story and particularly Bosch, how that wonderful 42 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:23,500 technology does all kinds of magical, unicorn things to your infrastructure. 43 00:03:24,180 --> 00:03:29,840 Yes. Yeah. And it's a clam thing. Do they have like quarterly meetings where they try to come up 44 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:33,800 with a new logo? Or has it become like ironically awesome that they use that clam? 45 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:42,480 So, it's funny you mention that because the kind of creepy clam seems to have been moved into the back room. 46 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:48,920 And now we have a shiny rainbow-colored Bosch logo, which got left at the Cloud Summit last week, 47 00:03:49,260 --> 00:03:50,400 much to all of our surprise. 48 00:03:50,580 --> 00:03:56,020 I like it. The creepy clam. You know, I'm always a fool for alliteration. So, that works out well. 49 00:03:56,380 --> 00:04:02,280 So, Tony, like you said, you spent your lifetime in ops, or I don't know if lifetime. You spent 50 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:07,400 many years in ops. I'm sure there's other things you've done with your life. Although maybe not, 51 00:04:07,460 --> 00:04:08,860 that would be a fascinating story. 52 00:04:10,940 --> 00:04:18,920 Yeah. I feel like I got dropped into the Unix pool at age of around 24 and have been there forever. 53 00:04:19,140 --> 00:04:25,980 Oh, yeah. Yeah. Just a little, I don't know what an analogy for a latchkey kid in the Unix world 54 00:04:25,980 --> 00:04:27,400 would be. But that's fine. 55 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:28,220 Yeah. Yeah. 56 00:04:28,340 --> 00:04:31,980 Yeah. Definitely a latchkey kid raised by Phil Donahue for the most part. 57 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:37,880 That's good. Yeah. I used to love it. I like the style where he would run around the audience 58 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:41,960 and stick mics in people's faces. I feel like they should do that at conferences more, right? When 59 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:46,840 there's a, maybe next time I'm at a talk and they have one of those dreaded two lines of mics 60 00:04:46,840 --> 00:04:50,860 where they ask people to, as they say, queue up in a place where you can get good bread. 61 00:04:51,660 --> 00:04:54,320 I'll just grab the mic and run around. That'd be fun. 62 00:04:55,180 --> 00:05:00,720 So let's see. I seem to have lost what we're talking about and thinking about bread. 63 00:05:01,940 --> 00:05:07,960 So tell me, like, let's start from the end. Like, what are the concerns or the questions or whatever, 64 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:12,720 as you say, when you, when you go out and talk with people who are customers of ours? Like, 65 00:05:13,060 --> 00:05:16,540 I mean, I encounter these a lot, but I'm curious to hear, like, if you were to get like the top 66 00:05:16,540 --> 00:05:21,660 three or five, depending on how they are, like, what are the ops questions they have? Like, 67 00:05:21,700 --> 00:05:23,140 what are they, what are they wondering about? 68 00:05:23,900 --> 00:05:29,500 Well, so it's, it's less about ops questions and more about org questions. What I've found in my 69 00:05:29,500 --> 00:05:34,580 ops career is it's really an org problem, not an op problem. And so the very first thing is like, 70 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,460 oh, we're going to, we're going to push a lot of code really fast. They're like, oh, our organization 71 00:05:38,460 --> 00:05:44,300 won't let us do that. And like, literally the top one through five questions are all about, 72 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:49,260 well, I would, but you see the person who's upstream of me won't allow that. And the people 73 00:05:49,260 --> 00:05:52,460 downstream of me won't allow that. So we can't make any changes. 74 00:05:52,700 --> 00:05:58,020 Nah, that, that seems a pretty astute observation that lines up with a lot of what I encounter. 75 00:05:58,260 --> 00:06:06,080 Yeah. And, and so, I mean, like, uh, I've been, I've been running Bosch based systems at Cloud 76 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:13,940 Foundry since 2012. And I know that you can definitely do much better than what people are doing. And so, 77 00:06:13,940 --> 00:06:21,620 I mean, I've searched and searched and the most recent metaphor that I've got is that, um, the, 78 00:06:21,620 --> 00:06:28,100 the pivotal tool thing here is really like an ultra high precision machine. And what most people are 79 00:06:28,100 --> 00:06:35,200 doing at their, at their own ops shops are like very, very low precision machine with tons of human 80 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:39,860 error in the middle and all this sort of thing. And so to start with as a, you know, kind of controlling 81 00:06:39,860 --> 00:06:44,980 metaphor, I talk like, Hey, this is a very high precision software machine. Like if you get it 82 00:06:44,980 --> 00:06:53,180 set up with ops processes, you as operators can get out of the deploy chain. And that is probably 83 00:06:53,180 --> 00:06:59,640 the thing that interests them most. Like, did you say we could get out of the deploy chain? Yes. 84 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:01,080 Right. 85 00:07:01,260 --> 00:07:07,400 And that, right. And that, and that starts to give operators an inkling that they could get their 86 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:13,420 life back. And so that tends, when I go talk to customers, what I really want to leave them with 87 00:07:13,420 --> 00:07:20,460 is it is possible and it is work. And I mean, it worked on the order of three to five years for a 88 00:07:20,460 --> 00:07:28,280 lot of organizations. Um, but it is work and you will be improving all of the time. And so that mostly 89 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:35,380 what I talk to them about is the big giant picture. How do we get operators out of the deploy process? 90 00:07:35,780 --> 00:07:44,420 And then like the teeny, teeny micro picture, like, you know, in QA, they will not accept this kind of 91 00:07:44,420 --> 00:07:49,180 thing. Like, okay, we're going to have to go talk to QA then about what they will and won't accept and 92 00:07:49,180 --> 00:07:52,940 how they, you know, their testing methodology and automated testing and things like that. 93 00:07:53,720 --> 00:08:00,980 And so those are the big, you know, those are really the big things I talk about. So I hammer CI because 94 00:08:00,980 --> 00:08:07,160 continuous integration is, is actually the warp engine that you can hook to, you know, our, whatever 95 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:13,240 fusion nacelles. I'm going to get lost in the start technologies pretty quick, but, um, you know, 96 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:19,320 Bosch and Cloud Foundry allow you to do really amazing things. Uh, but there's no transmission. 97 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:24,700 You need continuous integration. And we always recommend concourse because it's purpose built 98 00:08:24,700 --> 00:08:30,820 for this. Um, you know, you have to have those three pieces. Otherwise you cannot make your 99 00:08:30,820 --> 00:08:36,300 organization go fast. And so there you go. There's the, there's in a nutshell what I tell 100 00:08:36,300 --> 00:08:37,040 our customers. 101 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:41,880 Yeah, no, those three are good. Cause they, uh, uh, I mean, they're interesting. One, I mean, 102 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:46,980 just to summarize them. So it's sort of like the first, a huge problem is sort of like the, uh, 103 00:08:46,980 --> 00:08:51,560 if I look to the, you know, I forget that old song, I can look to the left and the right. And then 104 00:08:51,560 --> 00:08:56,080 these people are holding me back from doing stuff or holding me back as a cynical way of putting it 105 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:01,140 is like, I would like to do the right thing, but all of us have to do the right thing together. And the 106 00:09:01,140 --> 00:09:06,840 way we're currently set up, it just will not allow for that. And then, and then, uh, you know, 107 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:11,940 there's this, there's this, uh, uh, the middle one you talked about is this very, um, specific 108 00:09:11,940 --> 00:09:16,280 direct benefit that I think unless, unless you're in an ops role, you don't really appreciate, 109 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:21,100 which is sort of like, Oh, I don't have to spend so much time releasing software now, 110 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:27,600 which, which I, I imagine for most ops people, maybe like, I guess you have a whole group of 111 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:32,660 security people who freak out about other stuff, but I, you know, between like security and doing 112 00:09:32,660 --> 00:09:36,880 a release, those probably seem like the things that ops people would, uh, have nightmares about 113 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:41,720 the most. And then, and then the last part is a good, like, uh, you know, I, I've been trying to 114 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:49,240 think a lot recently about pacing out enterprise transformation to use a phrase. And yeah, it seems 115 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:53,940 like two to three years is, uh, that's what it takes. Like I always, I always kind of like, uh, 116 00:09:54,540 --> 00:09:59,800 I don't know, I should be less negative in general in life. Uh, but like, you know, it's, 117 00:09:59,860 --> 00:10:04,940 it's not like all the like Spotify and, and unicorn talks you see where sort of like every six months 118 00:10:04,940 --> 00:10:08,460 you can switch things around. It's like, you're in a large organization. You should pace yourself. 119 00:10:08,460 --> 00:10:15,280 It's going to take a couple of years and like, that's totally okay. Don't freak out. Right? Like 120 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,600 it's, uh, there is the old aircraft carrier mentality. 121 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:23,640 So what, you know, what's the aircraft carrier mentality? 122 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:30,380 Oh, oh, it's, it's, uh, that, that reminds, it's, uh, back when I was, uh, working on, uh, 123 00:10:30,560 --> 00:10:36,100 strategy at Dell, uh, a couple of jobs ago, I think I was getting frustrated about how slow 124 00:10:36,100 --> 00:10:38,280 things would take, you know, to do all these things. 125 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:43,880 Exactly. Exactly. And, and, and one of my, my mentors there was like, I know it's frustrating, 126 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:49,780 but just imagine you're one of the hands on the wheel of this big aircraft carrier and it may take 127 00:10:49,780 --> 00:10:54,760 a long time to turn, but you know, it's, uh, which it'd be interesting to look up how long it 128 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:58,700 actually does take an aircraft carrier to turn. I have a feeling it's like one of those Mussolini 129 00:10:58,700 --> 00:11:04,320 trains running on time things that probably aircraft carriers can actually turn really quickly 130 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:11,380 nowadays. But anyhow, you did, you did say a magic word transformation. And so one of my goals at 131 00:11:11,380 --> 00:11:16,860 Pivotal is never to have this word said without giving an operative definition. And so since I am, 132 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,640 what is your operative definition of transformation? 133 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:24,020 I, I, I think, I think it gets to, to that first thing you were saying, which, which is, is, 134 00:11:24,140 --> 00:11:28,240 it's nicely the next, uh, I don't know, one of the topics I want to talk about, which is, 135 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:35,240 it's just a very like literal version of it, which is like, um, the way you're operating now. 136 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:39,920 Well, if we narrow down to like, you're, you're writing your own software, large organization 137 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:45,920 that you use for whatever reason to do your daily, weekly business or your processes and the way you're 138 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:52,080 doing it now, all the way from the, uh, the operations, lower level operation stuff to thinking 139 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:56,520 about how you figure out what to put in your software. And then thinking about having the business 140 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:02,720 side of people think about how they use software to, uh, decide what they're doing. You pretty much 141 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:07,880 need to change a huge amount of that around. So it's change and transformation are more or less 142 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:12,960 the, the, the two things, uh, that I mean with that. And to your point about, uh, as you're opening 143 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:19,160 up with like organizational stuff, uh, you're going to likely need to change around or transform 144 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:25,120 the shape of your organization and what people do. So, I mean, to, to the point we're talking about 145 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:30,920 with, uh, whether aircraft carriers can turn on a dime or not, I think ideally you want to transform 146 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:37,560 the business, right? Or, or whatever reason you have for existing, but probably at the moment, 147 00:12:37,560 --> 00:12:44,600 we're mostly focused on the, I should say the bulk of, of work is transforming how it operates. 148 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:49,640 So that to your first point, when you look to the left and the right, your, uh, your jokers and 149 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:54,400 your whatnot, like they change how they operate. And, uh, so that's, that's what I'm always shooting 150 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:59,240 for when, when I use that, uh, that phrase. And yeah, I mean, as I was caveatting, like there's 151 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:03,980 all these words like digital transformation and organization, and I don't really know what else 152 00:13:03,980 --> 00:13:04,460 to say. 153 00:13:04,580 --> 00:13:07,860 That's what I hear. I'll, I'll give you the operative definition. So here's the deal is 154 00:13:07,860 --> 00:13:12,840 an operations person, when people say transformation and I'm like, what does that actually mean? And 155 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:17,180 they can't give me a operative definition. Then I just shut down sort of like Korba. Korba was 156 00:13:17,180 --> 00:13:21,220 going to solve everything in the nineties. Exactly. And then like, I'm just going to duck 157 00:13:21,220 --> 00:13:25,900 this Korba thing. And people right now, I think try to duck the transformation thing. 158 00:13:26,680 --> 00:13:32,200 And so from an operator's perspective, here's what I say, which is transformation is adding 159 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:39,440 enough dimensionality that problems that seemed intractable become trivial to solve. And so 160 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:44,600 in the real world, what that means is I, I, I walk into a customer meeting. First time I've 161 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:49,120 ever met them, there's usually executives in the room. And I say, if you care at all, 162 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:55,020 and I mean, just barely, if you care at all about switching around, you will push four to 163 00:13:55,020 --> 00:13:56,700 10 times as much software. 164 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:57,320 Yeah. 165 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,520 That is on a year over year basis, four to 10 times software, more software go out the 166 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:06,460 door. And frankly, for the people in that room, that sounds crazy. That just plainly sounds 167 00:14:06,460 --> 00:14:12,500 crazy. And the, the real, the real thing here is, is that if they care at all, they will 168 00:14:12,500 --> 00:14:18,800 push 40 to a hundred times more software, but I can't even say that in the room. And so 169 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:24,100 the, so this question is like, well, how is that even possible? It's just because pivotal, 170 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:30,100 all the pivotal stack is ultra high precision software. And it adds so much dimensionality 171 00:14:30,100 --> 00:14:34,940 that it allows you to do things that seemed like impossible, pushing four times as much 172 00:14:34,940 --> 00:14:39,500 software that seems impossible. But if you actually see how the cloud foundry works and everything 173 00:14:39,500 --> 00:14:42,800 like that, it's not even surprising and like, Oh yeah, it's actually more like 40 times. 174 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:48,160 Well, to, to, to, to interrupt you there. So to that end, uh, like I, I, I, I want you 175 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,600 to come in and go over a little things here, a couple of things here, John, because one of 176 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:58,680 the things that, um, to, um, to Tony's point that I always find missing in, in, uh, brief 177 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:05,280 conversations of it, right. Is the, uh, like, well, that all sounds great. But so, uh, like, 178 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:09,940 I always, what do you actually do? Like, I call this, the computers are awesome marketing 179 00:15:09,940 --> 00:15:15,640 anti-pad, which is like computers, you know, you're sort of like, hold on, isn't that always 180 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:21,220 what computers are supposed to have done? So, uh, I, you know, you have a series of blog posts that 181 00:15:21,220 --> 00:15:25,840 you're doing and I was, uh, as so often happens when you have questions about content. I read the 182 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:30,080 first one and I was like, Oh, uh, but yeah, how does that actually work? And then I read the 183 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:35,260 second one. I was like, Oh, I should have just been patient. And so like, like, I think, 184 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:39,560 you know, you, and you, you, uh, you divided up a few like features and things that in, in 185 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:43,840 the cloud native world, the actual technologies that enable this and, and, you know, obviously 186 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,400 it'd be good to hear from both of you, but like, what's your idea, John, of like, what are 187 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:53,280 the actual enabling technologies? Like what is in the creepy clam that, um, does that sort 188 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:57,720 of freeing up of resources or transformation or whatever? Like what's different that you've 189 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:02,600 been tracked? Well, that's something I wanted to speak to is the, um, is the casting the 190 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:08,720 IT and operations as the bad guys. Um, you know, the guys that are going slow and they're 191 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:13,740 just kind of in the way of transformation. And, uh, if you're the other side of the fence, 192 00:16:13,740 --> 00:16:17,840 you, you know, you feel like you're the custodian of things like reliability, security. There 193 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:23,220 are a lot of, um, a lot of things that you are trying to keep those best developers in. 194 00:16:24,220 --> 00:16:30,820 And, uh, I think, but in terms of transformation, uh, I think the, uh, IT and operations are on 195 00:16:30,820 --> 00:16:36,520 board as much as the rest of the organization. Um, and they kind of see that the current mode 196 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:40,320 of operation is unsustainable. You know, every part of the business is now trying to find 197 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:45,180 digital ways to engage with customers. And, you know, guess what? That results in more, 198 00:16:45,260 --> 00:16:50,040 more apps that need to be operated. Um, and just by adding more people, you're not going to 199 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:56,300 scale. So I, um, I think they see that they also see the kind of rogue IT. They see developers 200 00:16:56,300 --> 00:16:59,720 getting frustrated with slow timelines and just putting down their credit card for, you know, 201 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:06,920 external AWS or other IAS. So I, I, I, and I'm interested in what Tony thinks, but I think 202 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:11,620 the sense is that they, they know this is unsustainable, but they don't know what the 203 00:17:11,620 --> 00:17:18,740 solution is. Um, it's not more people. Um, and so the, the answer that kind of arrived 204 00:17:18,740 --> 00:17:23,940 in my, in my blogs is it's about automation abstraction. Um, it's about moving the level 205 00:17:23,940 --> 00:17:29,220 at which you as an ops person, um, moves up and starts using that high precision technology 206 00:17:29,220 --> 00:17:35,880 that Tony talks about. Um, so we start, we start looking at that in terms of Bosch, which 207 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:41,620 does a whole range of things. Um, and we talk about day one, which is if you familiar with 208 00:17:41,620 --> 00:17:46,420 configuration management, maybe chef puppet, it's how do you, how do you deploy the software? 209 00:17:46,420 --> 00:17:50,660 How do you set up the environments, the operating system, but then on day two, once it's all set 210 00:17:50,660 --> 00:17:55,540 up and deployed, you know, day two goes, is more than one day. That's every day apart 211 00:17:55,540 --> 00:18:01,780 from day one that continue, uh, you continue to operate the software. And you know, a lot 212 00:18:01,780 --> 00:18:05,260 of the things you created on day one, a lot of the metadata, the things you know about the 213 00:18:05,260 --> 00:18:10,820 application actually just need to propagate into day two and beyond. Um, because you, you 214 00:18:10,820 --> 00:18:15,060 know how that thing is supposed to work and how the environment system look. So if it starts 215 00:18:15,060 --> 00:18:19,140 to kind of drift out of configuration, how do you bring it back? If you lose services, 216 00:18:19,140 --> 00:18:24,180 how do you bring them back? Um, how do you do things like, like scaling? So the, the, 217 00:18:24,180 --> 00:18:30,340 the first kind of technological piece is just elevating the, the level at which as an ops 218 00:18:30,340 --> 00:18:35,540 person operates. So it gives me a force multiplier. I'm, I'm bringing a level of automation that 219 00:18:35,540 --> 00:18:41,140 is kind of looking after things, um, monitoring them rather than meeting a console doing that. 220 00:18:41,140 --> 00:18:46,660 It's just got that. It's just kind of got my back and I can think more about, okay, what, um, 221 00:18:46,660 --> 00:18:50,740 incremental improvements can I make to this that I can then build into that platform. 222 00:18:50,740 --> 00:18:55,220 But we're using, I have, there's this, there's all, I like to define terms. So the same way I want 223 00:18:55,220 --> 00:18:59,220 an operative definition of transformation, we've got to get an operative definition of automation, 224 00:18:59,780 --> 00:19:04,420 which if you go to a lot of customers and you say, Hey, do you use automation? They all raise their 225 00:19:04,420 --> 00:19:10,980 hands. And I'm like, how many steps are in doing X and how many people have to touch things in those 226 00:19:10,980 --> 00:19:15,780 steps? And they're like, Oh, there's eight steps and people touch all but one of them. And there's like 227 00:19:15,780 --> 00:19:21,220 this one script that configures things like, well, that's not really automation. And so 228 00:19:21,860 --> 00:19:28,020 I got, I got in trouble, but I think we need to introduce a new term, which is, uh, taken from 229 00:19:28,020 --> 00:19:33,300 the driving car thing, which is autonomization. Uh, I'm not going to get that conjugation correct, 230 00:19:33,300 --> 00:19:40,260 but we want things to be autonomous, not automated. Uh, and so one of the big things with Bosch is it 231 00:19:40,260 --> 00:19:44,900 is autonomous. It is like you set it up and it says, okay, well, you've told me I need to 232 00:19:45,460 --> 00:19:52,820 keep these things going. And I have many levels on which I autonomously keep your software running, 233 00:19:52,820 --> 00:19:58,340 your VMs running the components that are, that make up a pivotal cloud foundry and keep all of 234 00:19:58,340 --> 00:20:04,740 those things running. Same thing with services. And so the, uh, you know, automation is insufficient 235 00:20:04,740 --> 00:20:08,820 right now. I hope that in 10 years that we can go back to using that perfectly good word. But right 236 00:20:08,820 --> 00:20:14,660 now, if you go to a fortune 2000 customer and you say automation, they think that they have checked the box. 237 00:20:15,140 --> 00:20:21,540 And they have not. And so autonomous is where we're looking for. And so, yeah. And if you, 238 00:20:21,540 --> 00:20:26,420 if you think of automation is really, Hey, I wrote a script to do the things I used to do manually, 239 00:20:26,420 --> 00:20:32,420 um, then you're missing a trick because with the autonomous system, when they start operating at the 240 00:20:32,420 --> 00:20:37,540 kind of scale that we're talking about now, um, you can watch that system and all the individual 241 00:20:37,540 --> 00:20:43,460 things that an autonomous system does, and it makes no sense. Um, but you, that's because it's kind of 242 00:20:43,460 --> 00:20:47,940 elevated the way it works beyond the way your brain could process so much information. And, 243 00:20:47,940 --> 00:20:52,420 you know, at the end of a lot of these things, you see, Oh, it got to the right result in a very, 244 00:20:52,420 --> 00:20:56,740 in a way that I, I would never have been able to do because I just can't keep that many things in my, 245 00:20:56,740 --> 00:21:02,900 in my head at the same time. Um, so I think that's the distinction. It's not about just taking the 246 00:21:02,900 --> 00:21:08,740 old steps and making them run, uh, making machine run them. It's about giving that machine more, 247 00:21:08,740 --> 00:21:14,980 more control. So that, that does seem like, like one of the, uh, um, I don't know, maybe the number 248 00:21:14,980 --> 00:21:24,180 one core technology enabler of, of transformation to use our, our word. Um, well, and, and, and before we 249 00:21:24,180 --> 00:21:29,540 delve into that more, I mean, are there, other, other, other sort of like, uh, whether they're 250 00:21:29,540 --> 00:21:34,980 without getting too sort of like spacey, uh, to reference Star Trek again, like, uh, whether 251 00:21:34,980 --> 00:21:40,420 they're like actual, like software or hardware technologies or, or sort of like thought technology, 252 00:21:40,420 --> 00:21:45,460 sort of like processes of operating. Are there other things that, that you find in the toolkit that 253 00:21:45,460 --> 00:21:51,060 enable all of this that you've written about John? Yeah. I mean, so I'm looking, I mean, 254 00:21:51,060 --> 00:21:55,860 we've talked about software defined data center for, for a long time, but those, those technologies 255 00:21:55,860 --> 00:22:00,740 really are, uh, uh, in a, in a, in a great state of the art. And, you know, we work with, for example, 256 00:22:00,740 --> 00:22:08,180 with VMware on NSX, um, their networking layer and the way that integrates with Bosch to really, uh, um, 257 00:22:08,180 --> 00:22:14,820 to make the, the network rather than it's hardwired, um, kind of mess, um, a very fungible 258 00:22:14,820 --> 00:22:20,980 software thing. Um, it just gives us that dynamic edge. It's something like Bosch can, can run across 259 00:22:20,980 --> 00:22:26,340 that because it's software just calling APIs other than, um, you know, people running around, 260 00:22:26,900 --> 00:22:31,860 having to hardwire networks. And it's kind of, there's a, there's a lot of detail that we don't 261 00:22:31,860 --> 00:22:37,140 have time to go into here, but when you start wanting to do things like, um, be able to audit, 262 00:22:37,140 --> 00:22:42,900 uh, your security arrangements for compliance, things like NSX have got that built in. They have a lot of the, 263 00:22:44,180 --> 00:22:50,340 internal security firewalls built in. So you can, um, where, where just your regular 264 00:22:50,340 --> 00:22:56,260 software defined infrastructure maybe doesn't have, um, all the, the traceability back to what 265 00:22:56,260 --> 00:23:02,660 happened. Um, NSX certainly gives you that now so that as an operator, I, I don't have to be, um, 266 00:23:02,660 --> 00:23:06,660 concerning myself with that level again. And another layer of software has got my back. 267 00:23:08,660 --> 00:23:13,300 So on, on that topic, this is something, uh, I was curious to talk about and, and, and given the joking 268 00:23:13,300 --> 00:23:21,380 about being a, uh, a Phil Donahue Unix latchkey kid, Tony, uh, it, it seems like one of the, 269 00:23:21,380 --> 00:23:26,180 well, at least in my experience, one of the areas like, like I haven't really like explored and talked 270 00:23:26,180 --> 00:23:32,020 enough about is like, so if we didn't have, and John was just alluding to this, if we didn't have all that 271 00:23:32,020 --> 00:23:38,500 infrastructure as a service stuff, like we wouldn't really be here like, and, and, and, you know, in all, 272 00:23:38,500 --> 00:23:43,940 in all the diagrams, uh, that, that we use around here, there's always this little bit at the bottom. 273 00:23:43,940 --> 00:23:50,660 That's basically like, you know, the data center, like, like all the hardware stuff. And, and especially 274 00:23:50,660 --> 00:23:56,740 in going out and talking with customers, like if, if you can start with like kind of what's the state 275 00:23:56,740 --> 00:24:02,500 of the raw infrastructure that you see out there and where do, where do people need to move to 276 00:24:03,220 --> 00:24:07,300 as far as that state to be in, in more of a cloud native way of operating? 277 00:24:09,140 --> 00:24:15,780 Yeah. So I, so I do not give short shrift to the IaaS because it is the key enabling technology 278 00:24:15,780 --> 00:24:22,340 here. Um, it is API driven, which is, you know, the first thing, but I often say what people miss 279 00:24:22,340 --> 00:24:28,340 about what's valuable about the IaaS is persistent storage. The persistent storage metaphor allows us 280 00:24:28,340 --> 00:24:34,900 to just treat all VMs as disposable. And that was, that was one of the key enabling just metaphors, 281 00:24:34,900 --> 00:24:39,460 like, oh, you can just throw what you can, you know, you don't have to update a VM. You can literally 282 00:24:39,460 --> 00:24:44,580 throw it away and put in the new version and reattach storage to it. And so, yeah, I don't, 283 00:24:44,580 --> 00:24:52,740 I don't give short shrift to the IaaS. Um, what I, what I actually say about that is what a PaaS does, 284 00:24:53,620 --> 00:25:01,780 it's a ratchet for the IaaS. With a PaaS, you can use the IaaS in its most mechanically advantaged way. 285 00:25:02,740 --> 00:25:08,420 So, you know, if you're using a ratchet on a, you know, an actual by hand, you just use that place 286 00:25:08,420 --> 00:25:12,820 where you can use gravity to maximize your force and then you turn it back, right? You don't try to spin 287 00:25:12,820 --> 00:25:19,140 that thing all the way around. What I would say is the best way to use IaaS is, is with a PaaS, 288 00:25:19,140 --> 00:25:24,340 because all of the other contorting and handwork that people do on IaaS is, you know, we go to 289 00:25:24,340 --> 00:25:29,940 customers and it still takes, it'll take three months to provision a VM. And that, that's all, 290 00:25:29,940 --> 00:25:34,340 they've got some goofball process that, that makes them take three months. It's not that the IaaS 291 00:25:34,340 --> 00:25:40,980 takes three months and it's going to ship anything. Um, so the best way to get IaaS cloud native is to 292 00:25:40,980 --> 00:25:49,940 put a PaaS on it and then talk with your hardware vendor about drip or utility computing or integrated 293 00:25:49,940 --> 00:25:57,700 or hyperconverged or whatever, so that you're just being delivered a rack of IaaS, essentially. 294 00:25:58,740 --> 00:26:05,060 And then work operationally to be able to accept, you know, some reasonable number, 295 00:26:05,060 --> 00:26:11,380 but a fairly high number. If you need to rack 30 racks at a time, because you know, you've got a 296 00:26:11,380 --> 00:26:17,380 Pivotal Cloud Foundry and it's running all, you know, 10,000 applications and it tells you like, 297 00:26:17,380 --> 00:26:23,380 hey, the IaaS is starting to run low on IaaS. Like, great. When you get that message as an operator, 298 00:26:23,380 --> 00:26:29,860 you want to know exactly what to say to your hardware vendor so that they just deliver what 299 00:26:29,860 --> 00:26:34,980 you need to your dock. You get that rack and it becomes integrated immediately, becomes online and 300 00:26:34,980 --> 00:26:41,060 available for the IaaS to use, for the PaaS to use. I mean, that's, that's what to do from behind the 301 00:26:41,060 --> 00:26:49,060 firewall. And you know, this, this brings up another topic, uh, that, that I, I don't know, I, I fiddle 302 00:26:49,060 --> 00:26:53,300 around with when I wake up at like 3 AM in the morning and I'm not otherwise freaking out about 303 00:26:53,300 --> 00:26:59,860 my life as too often happens. But like, it seems like a lot of what's going on in, in this space, 304 00:26:59,860 --> 00:27:05,780 as far as like, uh, doing cloud native ops or whatever is, and, and, and I know this is 305 00:27:05,780 --> 00:27:12,820 intentionally wrong, if you will, is there's a lot of homogenization of the technology up and down the 306 00:27:12,820 --> 00:27:19,220 stack? Uh, maybe not so much at the top layer where you want to be all like polyglot and so forth, 307 00:27:19,220 --> 00:27:25,380 but it seems that like the lower stack, it's essentially the, uh, I don't know from, from our, 308 00:27:25,380 --> 00:27:30,260 our latchkey days of the late nineties and early two thousands, like the Microsoft and the, and the, 309 00:27:30,260 --> 00:27:36,100 the Unix pitch of like, if you have the whole stack, everything works out well. And you know, 310 00:27:36,100 --> 00:27:41,940 then there, there was always the tension about a lot of the issue in addition to like, just, uh, 311 00:27:41,940 --> 00:27:46,900 what were you saying? Goofball process stuff, uh, that, that it has an aggregate, 312 00:27:46,900 --> 00:27:51,620 not just as customer written software is like, I got all this heterogeneous stuff, right? Like I got 313 00:27:51,620 --> 00:27:55,940 all these things to manage. And it seems like, and I'm interested on, on, on y'all's take on this is 314 00:27:55,940 --> 00:28:04,980 like a lot of what's been happening is to word this very carefully within one organization. It is more 315 00:28:04,980 --> 00:28:11,060 acceptable and maybe even cost effective. It's not, it's not expensive to go by from one big closed 316 00:28:11,060 --> 00:28:16,100 vendor, but to have a pretty homogeneous stack at at least the lower levels of things. 317 00:28:16,580 --> 00:28:20,980 And that enables a tremendous amount of automation and just reduction of variability. 318 00:28:20,980 --> 00:28:23,780 But I don't know. I mean, does that, does that seem to comport with what, 319 00:28:24,340 --> 00:28:27,300 what, what you've been seeing over the years or, or how does that all fit in? 320 00:28:28,020 --> 00:28:33,380 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so just to be really, you know, put all cards on the table, I take Google as the 321 00:28:33,380 --> 00:28:39,460 guiding light and Google is just like, uh, commoditized to the max extent possible, centralized 322 00:28:39,460 --> 00:28:45,460 to the max extent possible, uh, autonomized to the max extent possible. So these are the, 323 00:28:45,460 --> 00:28:52,900 those are the far edges of where I look for, for, so I'm going to depart a slight bit from this because 324 00:28:52,900 --> 00:28:58,100 I think it's useful to, to pick this up as a metaphor. If we all three decided to start a company 325 00:28:58,900 --> 00:29:05,140 and we were, I don't know, selling the golden eggs, geese lay, we would be a commodity business and we 326 00:29:05,140 --> 00:29:12,340 would choose the accounting model for commodity businesses. If we instead sold golden gooses and 327 00:29:12,340 --> 00:29:16,900 took a percentage of all eggs laid, then we would be a, you know, whatever, a delayed revenue 328 00:29:16,900 --> 00:29:23,380 recognition model. We would choose that generally accepted accounting principle model. But if I said, 329 00:29:23,380 --> 00:29:27,940 you know what, we need a totally new accounting model. We're going to off road it here. We're going 330 00:29:27,940 --> 00:29:33,620 to make up our new accounting model. What you two should say is like, that sounds pretty crazy and 331 00:29:33,620 --> 00:29:39,300 doesn't take advantage of, you know, extensive regulatory structures and legal precedent that 332 00:29:39,300 --> 00:29:45,700 would allow us to operate much more smoothly. So I think this metaphor applies directly to operations. 333 00:29:46,340 --> 00:29:54,580 We have for the last 40 years off-roaded it to the, this is a, this will take a little while to 334 00:29:54,580 --> 00:30:02,020 develop. So if I go too long, just tell me, but I think where we should get to is a generally accepted 335 00:30:02,020 --> 00:30:08,020 operations practice set. And it should be testable. I mean, literally have tests and assert things and 336 00:30:08,020 --> 00:30:13,940 things like that. What we've got now and what we're seeing in customers and why we're seeing customers 337 00:30:13,940 --> 00:30:24,740 come to us is because the old school polyglot to DYI model has all the problems of a vendor lock-in model. 338 00:30:25,380 --> 00:30:35,300 And worse, it has the problems of the, when you get that DYI thing out, that's essentially the last major feature set that ever goes into it. 339 00:30:35,860 --> 00:30:41,940 If you get a major feature out of your own DYI paths at year two, you are some kind of miracle worker. 340 00:30:42,900 --> 00:30:50,980 And so I want to, I want to step back from an operations point of view and start trying to optimize for the 341 00:30:50,980 --> 00:30:56,820 organization as a whole instead of for the kind of narrow optimizations that you might do in any one group. 342 00:30:58,820 --> 00:31:05,140 And I really, I think starting at choose an IaaS that's consistent, has a consistent API. 343 00:31:06,500 --> 00:31:09,220 Choose a PaaS that's consistent, has a consistent API. 344 00:31:10,740 --> 00:31:18,020 Let the, let the world be your research engine. Like what I do, I'll go tell our customers, like, look, 345 00:31:18,900 --> 00:31:26,100 you can go look what, you know, who our big customers are and they're public, right? So the big finn services 346 00:31:26,100 --> 00:31:32,340 companies, they drive our security research. And so if you're a little finn services company, 347 00:31:32,340 --> 00:31:37,620 but you would like the resource of a big finn services company driving your research, guess what? 348 00:31:37,620 --> 00:31:44,740 There's a way to arbitrage that. And I think when you take a look across the industry at that, 349 00:31:45,540 --> 00:31:55,620 what you can see is that it starts to make sense to have a broad base of solutions coming into whatever 350 00:31:55,620 --> 00:32:01,380 you're going to run internally. And it does not make sense to do a DYI. These DYI things are always 351 00:32:01,380 --> 00:32:06,340 designed. I used to be an operations consultant and I would just go to wherever they did a DYI when the 352 00:32:06,340 --> 00:32:14,580 people who did it left. And I had to clean up, right? And so I have seen this movie many, many times. 353 00:32:16,340 --> 00:32:23,620 Wow. That was a long answer. But the summary here is how to modern, the modern world. And it is 354 00:32:23,620 --> 00:32:29,060 standardization with an eye toward optimizing for the whole organization, not for IT, not for developers, 355 00:32:29,060 --> 00:32:30,900 not for security, but for the whole org. 356 00:32:30,900 --> 00:32:38,500 Yeah. And to add to that, I think that's a good answer there in the sense of, it seems like the 357 00:32:38,500 --> 00:32:45,700 very tangible advice, you know, given both from your DIY janitor days and like the actual state of 358 00:32:45,700 --> 00:32:51,860 affairs nowadays and everything is like, to use a slightly old word, like your infrastructure should 359 00:32:51,860 --> 00:32:57,460 be commodity infrastructure. Like there's not really a lot of reason to like vary it from, 360 00:32:58,660 --> 00:33:03,460 there's not like the IEEE doesn't, or whoever, I don't know, some data center group. There's not 361 00:33:03,460 --> 00:33:09,220 necessarily like reference architectures. I mean, you can go look up like a few things here and there 362 00:33:09,220 --> 00:33:15,540 from Facebook and Google and stuff like that. But in general, as, as sort of like an anti-example, 363 00:33:15,540 --> 00:33:21,300 if you look at, if you were to, uh, put the portfolio of all the different types of infrastructure 364 00:33:21,300 --> 00:33:26,660 an organization has on the wall, there's probably some number, like ideally it would be one, 365 00:33:28,020 --> 00:33:33,940 one type that they have. But as probably as you get over, like, I'm just wangling it out, 366 00:33:33,940 --> 00:33:38,900 like four or five different types, there's probably something terribly wrong. And it's almost like, 367 00:33:39,300 --> 00:33:43,140 you should start working on that first. Like, I often joke when I'm talking with people, like, 368 00:33:43,140 --> 00:33:48,260 uh, when you're dealing with legacy problems, one of the major sources of legacy problems is just like 369 00:33:48,260 --> 00:33:53,300 this variability we're talking about. So like, if you haven't more or less virtualized everything 370 00:33:53,300 --> 00:33:59,300 and consolidated, you should probably call us back in six months and, or, or however long, 371 00:33:59,300 --> 00:34:06,340 like, like work on that. Yeah. I mean, the great news is, is that you can do that if you're, 372 00:34:06,340 --> 00:34:11,780 if you're determined, you can do that very quickly. Uh, but determination and, you know, 373 00:34:11,780 --> 00:34:16,100 it runs into organizational concerns rather than technology concerns. Yeah. And so we're, 374 00:34:16,100 --> 00:34:20,820 we're back at, you know, there are no technology problems. There are just organization problems. 375 00:34:21,620 --> 00:34:29,300 Um, yeah, yeah, I, we have seen customers, you know, we love to talk about the Home Depot. 376 00:34:30,020 --> 00:34:34,260 Um, but when we talk about them, I'm not sure that we tell everyone what the deal there is, 377 00:34:34,260 --> 00:34:40,500 is, which is a CEO is like, Hey, guess what? We are all moving today. Exactly. Like all of us, 378 00:34:40,500 --> 00:34:45,860 right? There is no option. Nope. But one of my favorite things we hear in different variants 379 00:34:45,860 --> 00:34:51,220 from our customers is no is not an option. I'm not saying you have to take my option, 380 00:34:51,220 --> 00:34:57,620 but you better come up with a really good one. And no is not an option. And, you know, 381 00:34:57,620 --> 00:35:04,180 I imagine that a CIO is saying that to their staff because their board is saying to the executives, 382 00:35:04,180 --> 00:35:10,980 Hey, no is not an option on digital, digital transformation. And, you know, I'll tell a, 383 00:35:10,980 --> 00:35:18,580 I'll tell a dirty story by way of pointing at this for everyone. Most people do not know that at Netflix, 384 00:35:19,620 --> 00:35:27,220 that when they made this transformation to AWS, they abandoned in place around 60 operations people. 385 00:35:28,500 --> 00:35:33,060 And the development teams picked the ones that they liked and could work with well. And then they 386 00:35:33,060 --> 00:35:38,340 just left all of the rest of them sitting there. And one day they fired that VP and laid off all those 387 00:35:38,340 --> 00:35:44,980 people. And so there are dirty, dirty stories from this side. What I tell customers is don't be that, 388 00:35:44,980 --> 00:35:51,540 don't be that, right? This definitely happens. And you want to think about when a board is telling 389 00:35:51,540 --> 00:35:58,580 executives, no is not an option. They're serious. And so don't attempt to duck this like Corba. 390 00:36:00,020 --> 00:36:05,220 You, you really had some, uh, some scarring from Corba, didn't you? Just some, some terrible times. 391 00:36:06,100 --> 00:36:10,660 There's just some hot searing orbs were thrown your way and, uh, things didn't pan out. 392 00:36:10,660 --> 00:36:15,860 Yeah, that was, that was definitely a case where some executive went to a party and some other 393 00:36:15,860 --> 00:36:19,860 executive said to them, Corba. And they're like, Corba, I don't have Corba. And they came and told 394 00:36:19,860 --> 00:36:25,780 me, Corba. I'm like, uh, uh, this doesn't actually do anything. They're like, Corba. Like, okay. 395 00:36:26,660 --> 00:36:27,220 That's funny. 396 00:36:28,260 --> 00:36:34,660 Tony, what, what, what's your advice then for the ops folks, um, uh, as to how to get developers to like 397 00:36:34,660 --> 00:36:38,660 them? Cause that sounds like that's, um, that's the place you want to be. 398 00:36:38,660 --> 00:36:45,220 Well, yeah. So here's, so here is, here's what I actually see in the real world that when I talk to, 399 00:36:45,860 --> 00:36:50,820 you know, fortune 10 executives, I say, I laugh at them a little bit and I say, look, 400 00:36:50,820 --> 00:36:57,940 I know something about you. I know that when there is a very large, big problem in your shop, 401 00:36:58,820 --> 00:37:06,420 you call something like 12 people. And no one of those 12 people has the answer, but that is the 12 402 00:37:06,420 --> 00:37:10,340 people who have enough context to your whole organization, network security, 403 00:37:10,900 --> 00:37:17,380 everything else to actually solve a really big problem. And it's the same 12 people all the time. 404 00:37:18,260 --> 00:37:25,220 And so what that means is that in any organization like that, there's something like a dozen people 405 00:37:26,180 --> 00:37:33,460 who actually know how to think across the whole, all the technology. And so what it turns out is that if 406 00:37:33,460 --> 00:37:39,300 you can talk to 12 people in and talk to them about digital transformation in a way that they just, 407 00:37:39,300 --> 00:37:43,780 you know, don't hear it like Corba, like, Hey, we're just adding a lot of dimensionality with robots 408 00:37:43,780 --> 00:37:50,260 to solve all of your problems. And you get this very high precision, very high reliability, very high 409 00:37:50,260 --> 00:37:56,420 certainty system. And so you captured those 12 people and you tell them like, look, here's what 410 00:37:56,420 --> 00:38:01,380 it really is. Here's what's really going on. We'll show you those 12 people are the ones who are thought 411 00:38:01,380 --> 00:38:06,580 leaders for their whole org. And so they can start getting that back out through the operations 412 00:38:06,580 --> 00:38:14,100 organization. And here's where you end up. The operations organization has the most global view 413 00:38:14,100 --> 00:38:21,380 in an organization for a whole company. And so if you drive from the center, hey, we are trying to 414 00:38:21,380 --> 00:38:27,940 globally optimize for the whole company with these new tool sets. That's how you get, you know, 415 00:38:27,940 --> 00:38:32,980 that's how you become friendly with everyone. Because now when you understand that you can do things 416 00:38:32,980 --> 00:38:37,220 very fast. And when you understand CI, you can do something that no one has ever done. You could 417 00:38:37,220 --> 00:38:44,980 walk to the security team and say, I want to help you, which no security person has ever heard ever. 418 00:38:45,620 --> 00:38:52,180 And so you start talking like, hey, if you have these constant set of things that have to be asserted 419 00:38:52,180 --> 00:38:58,340 and audited, let's just write those in CI pipelines and we'll assert them every hour. And you can produce 420 00:38:58,340 --> 00:39:06,020 an hourly report that says you're in compliance. And when you walk into QA, security, networking, 421 00:39:06,020 --> 00:39:11,620 and any other compliance kind of team, and you start giving them tools that also allows them to 422 00:39:11,620 --> 00:39:17,140 operate in extremely high precision, they become very friendly to you. They're like, oh my gosh, 423 00:39:17,140 --> 00:39:22,340 I got this whole book of regulations. Like, you know, you say, wake up at 3am in a cold sweat about 424 00:39:23,540 --> 00:39:27,940 you're like, yeah, let's audit all those things out. And they're like, great, but my organization 425 00:39:27,940 --> 00:39:32,820 won't let me. Right now we're back to the organizational problem. And so that's where the 426 00:39:32,820 --> 00:39:38,340 operations teams can be really helpful because they're very good at dealing with emergent problems. 427 00:39:39,460 --> 00:39:42,900 And so they use the skill set they've built over years that seemed worthless until now 428 00:39:44,340 --> 00:39:49,300 to help people get around, like if the organization is just doing something dumb, 429 00:39:49,300 --> 00:39:53,060 like let's just go talk to the people who think we should do it. And maybe they want to do the right 430 00:39:53,060 --> 00:39:58,100 thing too, but just don't know how to do something different. And so that's, that's what I would, 431 00:39:58,100 --> 00:40:05,220 operations is the most central organization. And if they change their attitude about how to do things, 432 00:40:05,220 --> 00:40:10,580 they can be incredibly effective and help other people leverage this technology. And things are great. 433 00:40:10,580 --> 00:40:16,740 So, so let me, let me try to like boil down, uh, uh, a little bit of leftover questions into, 434 00:40:16,740 --> 00:40:24,180 uh, some, some last is strange last potion to go over here. Um, so, so, so the one thing we've alluded 435 00:40:24,180 --> 00:40:32,260 to a lot, uh, is the, uh, you should use platform as a service or paths as the standard layer on top of 436 00:40:32,260 --> 00:40:39,140 all the standard stuff, so to speak, it's, it's like standardization all the way down. Um, and I think 437 00:40:39,700 --> 00:40:44,820 what, what we try to do in pivotal cloud foundry, I mean, I don't know if we use this phrase so much 438 00:40:44,820 --> 00:40:51,140 anymore, but we used to talk about being highly opinionated is we try to embed in our paths layer, 439 00:40:51,700 --> 00:40:58,740 a model of operating and thinking, if you will, the, the way you would do it. And so to, to, 440 00:40:58,740 --> 00:41:05,300 to go back a little bit, I think the last large model of thinking about it that we had, uh, was 441 00:41:05,300 --> 00:41:12,580 basically like I tell, or some people would call it it SM, it service management. And, and I feel like, 442 00:41:12,580 --> 00:41:19,780 I feel like the idea of that was that there's maybe like three things. One, well, you start off with 443 00:41:19,780 --> 00:41:25,220 like it is complicated, right? Like there's a lot of moving parts and you got to do a lot of stuff. 444 00:41:25,220 --> 00:41:31,780 Two, there's a lot of people involved who have to like approve things that happen and have input 445 00:41:31,780 --> 00:41:39,940 on it for all sorts of legitimate and non-legitimate reasons. And then, and then three, uh, you're going 446 00:41:39,940 --> 00:41:46,100 to have people requesting that it does stuff. Hence the service management part and the, the, uh, 447 00:41:46,100 --> 00:41:52,580 tragic obsession on ticket management that occurred. And so like, to me, and I just go over that, 448 00:41:52,580 --> 00:41:58,020 like that is an example of a model of it, which is basically like people come to you it and they 449 00:41:58,020 --> 00:42:05,460 want you to do something and you do it. And you know, the part of that planning, not to, not to 450 00:42:05,460 --> 00:42:10,020 short shrift, but part of that planning is what we would call day two thinking or, or to John's point 451 00:42:10,020 --> 00:42:15,460 earlier, uh, day in plus one thinking. Cause it's, you know, every, every day after day one of what is 452 00:42:15,460 --> 00:42:19,940 our plan for operating this and what's our run book and like, well, let's set up how we're going to do 453 00:42:19,940 --> 00:42:26,020 it. Um, but the model ended up being more about like, I guess a project way of looking at it. So 454 00:42:26,820 --> 00:42:32,100 there's that as an example. And you've kind of alluded to this several times. Like if you were to 455 00:42:32,100 --> 00:42:38,740 come up with like what the model of it thinking is for this precision stuff. Right. Um, and I think 456 00:42:38,740 --> 00:42:42,820 you've hit upon it a little bit with things like, let's make it testable and we should have continuous 457 00:42:42,820 --> 00:42:49,060 integration. Like I just, I'm interested to hear what you think. Like that, that model is like the 458 00:42:49,060 --> 00:42:54,020 cloud native model that, that having the standardized IS and the pass on top, like what's the way people 459 00:42:54,020 --> 00:42:58,660 should think about the, the it that they're doing and how they kind of like manage its life. 460 00:42:59,780 --> 00:43:04,180 Yeah. So it's incredibly straightforward, but you have to get over something. If so, 461 00:43:04,180 --> 00:43:08,740 I'm going to introduce a weird term here. If you're in a Turing mediated environment, 462 00:43:08,740 --> 00:43:16,740 that is computers are doing what they're doing. There are no untestable things. You must first 463 00:43:16,740 --> 00:43:21,940 accept that if you're dealing with computers, you can always test, you can always test an assertion. 464 00:43:22,500 --> 00:43:28,180 And so once you come to accept that, then everything I tell can be entirely subsumed. 465 00:43:28,180 --> 00:43:35,140 I tell does not require a person to validate. Like if you have to have X, Y, Z process. Great. 466 00:43:35,140 --> 00:43:40,980 Just write the assertions for that process or automate that process. You can keep your I tell, 467 00:43:40,980 --> 00:43:46,740 no problem. It's not, it's, you know, the thing you have to watch out for when you get the new tool 468 00:43:46,740 --> 00:43:50,900 sets is arguing about motor oil for an electric car, right? You don't put motor oil on electric car. 469 00:43:50,900 --> 00:43:54,820 So don't argue about it for electric cars. That's probably the right way to think about that. 470 00:43:56,180 --> 00:44:03,540 But everything, everything, everything can be tested, asserted, watched, audited, known. You just 471 00:44:03,540 --> 00:44:10,820 move into a, you know, a highly discoverable environment. And so, like you pointed out, 472 00:44:10,820 --> 00:44:15,780 there's all these checks and balances and processes. And often it's because all these resources are getting 473 00:44:15,780 --> 00:44:20,580 used incorrectly and, you know, we don't even know how that got in and blah, blah, blah. And you do 474 00:44:20,580 --> 00:44:26,980 want to manage to that. However, if you can know, if you can say, hey, I trust my organization within 475 00:44:26,980 --> 00:44:31,620 these guardrails to do the right thing. And if something goes off the rails, we actually have 476 00:44:31,620 --> 00:44:39,140 really good audit process and we can switch things around. So you can loosen some of the, you know, 477 00:44:39,140 --> 00:44:47,860 operations is a business of scarring. It absolutely is. And so the modern cloud native thing is like, 478 00:44:47,860 --> 00:44:56,500 start, start automating worrying about your scars. And you make everything autonomous. And eventually, 479 00:44:56,500 --> 00:45:01,140 what you find is that the whole thing floats. Cloud Foundry floats when you run it. It's 480 00:45:01,140 --> 00:45:07,940 very hard to knock over. And just that experience will change the way you look at operations. 481 00:45:07,940 --> 00:45:15,700 Well, I think the upshot of that is you're, you know, the 12 people, they can be doing one of two 482 00:45:15,700 --> 00:45:21,780 things. They can be running the system or they can actually be looking at, looking at the way that 483 00:45:21,780 --> 00:45:26,820 they're going to improve the system, you know, and automates additional processes. 484 00:45:27,780 --> 00:45:33,460 And so you want the balance of that to be doing the continuous improvement rather than just 485 00:45:33,460 --> 00:45:39,220 doing the stuff which keeps the lights on. And what we see in some of our most successful customers is 486 00:45:39,220 --> 00:45:45,860 they become a platform ops team. They pretty much have a product that they offer to developers with 487 00:45:45,860 --> 00:45:49,620 all those features. And they keep making it better because they keep making developers go faster. 488 00:45:50,740 --> 00:45:56,500 So that they change their thinking from being operating to kind of managing a service or a product. 489 00:45:57,780 --> 00:46:01,860 And that's very transformational for the organizations we've seen pick that up. 490 00:46:02,660 --> 00:46:06,660 Yeah. You know, to kind of continue the idea of the new model, it's almost 491 00:46:08,260 --> 00:46:14,340 not the opposite of like an ITAL model, but it's a huge difference is sort of the, 492 00:46:15,860 --> 00:46:21,540 to some extent, the take it or leave it approach that ops gives with something I'll go over as a 493 00:46:21,540 --> 00:46:26,020 change. But it's sort of like, here are the things we provide here. Here's the standardized things we 494 00:46:26,020 --> 00:46:31,700 provide. You should figure out how to fit what you need into that. And if it doesn't fit into that, 495 00:46:31,700 --> 00:46:35,860 then we have a remediation process that will do a couple of things. One, like you could ask for 496 00:46:35,860 --> 00:46:42,980 something new on the existing platform to some extent, but not, not necessarily a new platform. 497 00:46:43,460 --> 00:46:50,180 And then two, I mean, and you read this and things like our own internal conversation and Google SRE 498 00:46:50,180 --> 00:46:56,340 stuff is if we encounter something that isn't automated, step one is automated. And step two is 499 00:46:56,340 --> 00:47:01,380 if it's, if you think it doesn't need to be automated, see step one, right? It's, it's just 500 00:47:01,380 --> 00:47:07,700 like automate everything or, or, uh, to, to use the, uh, uh, what was the word? Uh, uh, not automate, 501 00:47:07,700 --> 00:47:12,900 uh, atomic, but you know, whatever, whatever the autonomous, the intelligent, the smart, 502 00:47:12,900 --> 00:47:17,620 the wise automation is. And essentially like anything we don't have wisely automated, 503 00:47:17,620 --> 00:47:22,180 we're probably doing something wrong. And, and then our job, and I think this is where the, 504 00:47:22,180 --> 00:47:28,420 uh, an interesting shift of, uh, having ops people think in a more product mindset comes from 505 00:47:28,420 --> 00:47:33,780 is if we feel like we can't like wisely automate it, then let's make a new product that does, 506 00:47:34,500 --> 00:47:40,180 right? Like, cause at the end, that's what we need to do. Like our job is to wisely automate as 507 00:47:40,180 --> 00:47:47,540 much thing as pretty much everything possible. Yeah. So, uh, go ahead. 508 00:47:47,540 --> 00:47:53,220 Yeah. When you said, if it's not automated, automate it, think, you know, and then see step 509 00:47:53,220 --> 00:47:58,340 one. I, I think, uh, think of our brothers and sisters who sacrificed themselves at Netflix for 510 00:47:58,340 --> 00:48:01,460 this model and just don't beat them. Don't let their sacrifice go in vain. 511 00:48:02,180 --> 00:48:07,300 That's right. Make, make, make sure you have enough, uh, in your compensation package before 512 00:48:07,300 --> 00:48:14,820 you decide to sacrifice yourself. Take on, take on a big risk appropriately. Otherwise you should just 513 00:48:14,820 --> 00:48:20,340 focus on like your, uh, work-life balance, you know, don't, don't be a hero. Like they used to say in 514 00:48:20,340 --> 00:48:26,260 those kids, we would watch in the latch K date, latchkey days, be safe out there. Well, do either of 515 00:48:26,260 --> 00:48:31,700 you, do either of you have anything, uh, you want to add on before we wrap up about, um, I mean, 516 00:48:31,700 --> 00:48:37,300 especially on the, on the topic of like, like what is, what is, what is the, the sort of life and the 517 00:48:37,300 --> 00:48:43,780 thinking of, of, uh, of a cloud native ops person look like? Well, I will tell you, I'll wrap up for 518 00:48:43,780 --> 00:48:48,900 with a teaser for the next time, which is, I believe that we're going to see app counts, 519 00:48:48,900 --> 00:48:53,940 you know, fortune 1000 app counts somewhere between 700 and 3000 apps just on, you know, 520 00:48:53,940 --> 00:49:01,140 in general, uh, outliers being much higher, 15,000. Um, I think that we are going to see, 521 00:49:01,140 --> 00:49:09,060 you know, two, four, 10 X app counts at customer sites. Uh, and with the current tool sets and the 522 00:49:09,060 --> 00:49:14,500 current thinking, it's not possible to manage that. So I believe there'll be an emerging engineering, 523 00:49:14,900 --> 00:49:21,540 uh, practice probably called app ops because the platform ops is trivial. You can do it. I mean, 524 00:49:21,540 --> 00:49:27,300 our customers show at a 10,000 AI system requires eight people worldwide to run 24 by seven. It has no, 525 00:49:27,300 --> 00:49:34,180 it has no work involved in it. It's just, you know, 40 hours a week, daytime work. It's just not a 526 00:49:34,180 --> 00:49:40,100 problem, but managing 10,000 applications, plus you're going to have to start thinking about whole 527 00:49:40,100 --> 00:49:43,380 new structures for that. And so that's probably something to talk about next time. So yeah, 528 00:49:43,380 --> 00:49:46,740 yeah, no, that, that, that would be good. I mean, cause we, we often distinguish between, 529 00:49:46,740 --> 00:49:52,020 uh, let's call it two and a half operations roles, or I don't know who we is, at least in my mind, 530 00:49:52,020 --> 00:49:55,940 I do. And one of them is what you're talking about, sort of like the physical infrastructure, 531 00:49:55,940 --> 00:50:01,620 which, you know, someone's got to manage that, at least make sure that something's plugged in. 532 00:50:01,620 --> 00:50:06,340 And, and then, and then there's the, the platform operators who operate the platform as a whole. 533 00:50:06,340 --> 00:50:12,020 And then I think there's this other category that is not super well-defined and, and application 534 00:50:12,020 --> 00:50:17,060 operations make sense. Like if you got all these wacky microservices things running around, like 535 00:50:17,700 --> 00:50:23,380 someone's got to make sure all that's working. And, and, and that whether, whether it's people, 536 00:50:23,380 --> 00:50:28,180 a role or a team or whatever, that, uh, that function needs to be served. And I think is, 537 00:50:28,180 --> 00:50:32,980 uh, uh, uh, evolving, interesting area. How about yourself, John, you got anything you want to 538 00:50:32,980 --> 00:50:39,140 add building on the, uh, the Lego bricks that you just set for me? I think, you know, there's app ops 539 00:50:39,140 --> 00:50:44,660 and plat ops. There's, we know there's app, the guys that build the apps that then get operated. 540 00:50:44,660 --> 00:50:49,620 But what about plat dev do? And this goes back to Tony's comments about DIY. You know, 541 00:50:49,620 --> 00:50:55,460 we see kind of platform development as a shared responsibility between the, the new breed, 542 00:50:55,460 --> 00:50:59,140 the new breed of kind of IT operations. So you're automating stuff, you're building that into the 543 00:50:59,140 --> 00:51:05,540 platform, but also a pivotal, we build the platform. And so it gets us into interesting discussions about, 544 00:51:05,540 --> 00:51:10,580 um, using things like concourse pipelines to continuously deliver updates to your platform 545 00:51:10,580 --> 00:51:18,340 that you're operating. Um, but also, uh, more of a, uh, kind of a development, uh, side to the 546 00:51:18,340 --> 00:51:24,020 operations role that feeds into plat ops. So, you know, it's, we, we're still developing the theory 547 00:51:24,020 --> 00:51:28,420 around this, but, uh, our customers are really kind of leading us by the way a lot of this works. And, 548 00:51:28,420 --> 00:51:34,340 uh, uh, uh, so, um, I'll be actually posting a blog fairly soon of talking about how customers are 549 00:51:34,340 --> 00:51:40,420 taking concept up from pivotal and deploying those through, uh, through concourse into, uh, 550 00:51:40,420 --> 00:51:46,900 into their, uh, operating systems. Yeah. Yeah. It seems like an interesting aside. I mean, uh, is, uh, 551 00:51:46,900 --> 00:51:52,020 if, if, if, if you're in an ops role and you're not familiar with like, uh, CI tools, that's probably 552 00:51:52,020 --> 00:51:56,820 some after you virtualized everything, at least that's some good homework to work on next. If you don't 553 00:51:56,820 --> 00:52:04,100 know what's happening there. Cause that, that, that seems like a core, uh, a core service that, 554 00:52:04,100 --> 00:52:10,900 that operations people will be responsible for providing. It is the next iteration of cron, 555 00:52:10,900 --> 00:52:17,860 like operations people live and die on cron and concourse is the next version of cron. 556 00:52:17,860 --> 00:52:23,940 That's perfect. All right. Well, on that note, we always like to end in perfection or at least, uh, 557 00:52:23,940 --> 00:52:28,260 you know, just abysmal confusion, which is a certain amount of perfection if you like chaos, 558 00:52:28,260 --> 00:52:33,460 like I do. Uh, but I think we did the first. So as always, well, thanks for being on first. Uh, 559 00:52:33,460 --> 00:52:37,620 both of you, uh, I appreciate it. We, we've been planning this for, for a little while here and, 560 00:52:37,620 --> 00:52:41,220 uh, it's nice to have it done. So, uh, 561 00:52:41,220 --> 00:52:47,460 it's great time. Yeah. Yeah. So if people want to, uh, follow up or with you or, uh, you know, 562 00:52:47,460 --> 00:52:53,700 see you online or something, Tony, do you have some sort of a Twitter location or RSS feed people 563 00:52:53,700 --> 00:52:56,260 should subscribe to? What, what do you do there on the internet? 564 00:52:57,300 --> 00:52:58,740 You can find Twitter. 565 00:52:59,540 --> 00:53:04,260 I have an X and what, what was that that you broke up there? 566 00:53:05,300 --> 00:53:13,140 Nine, nine, seven Unix, like the prime number nine, nine, seven and the copyrighted AT&T term 567 00:53:13,140 --> 00:53:18,340 Unix, UNIX. Yeah. I always like, uh, there's, there's some person that, that, uh, likes a lot 568 00:53:18,340 --> 00:53:23,300 of podcasts and stuff I do, and I'm pretty sure he's, uh, some obscure chipset is his Twitter name, 569 00:53:23,300 --> 00:53:26,420 which is always exciting. How about your, how about yourself, John? 570 00:53:28,580 --> 00:53:35,700 Yeah. So you can catch me. I I'm Johnny a so J O H N N Y underscore a on the Twitters. 571 00:53:36,660 --> 00:53:40,820 Perfect. Well, as always, this has been Pivotal Conversations. If you want to get the most recent 572 00:53:40,820 --> 00:53:46,900 episodes, you can subscribe to it in your iTunes or your, uh, overcast or whatever a stitcher is. 573 00:53:46,900 --> 00:53:51,460 You can just search for Pivotal Conversations and add it there. If you want to go find us, 574 00:53:51,460 --> 00:53:56,740 uh, I post the most recent episodes. I mean, obviously, but I post them the fastest over in 575 00:53:56,740 --> 00:54:02,660 SoundCloud. So if you go to soundcloud.com slash Pivotal Conversations, no underscore space in that, 576 00:54:02,660 --> 00:54:07,860 you can see this episode and all the previous ones. Uh, there there's, there's some good interviews 577 00:54:07,860 --> 00:54:13,620 there. Uh, speaking of, uh, of, of some customers, one of the more recent, uh, customer ones there is 578 00:54:13,620 --> 00:54:18,900 with, uh, Opal Perry from all state going over, I guess you could call it transformation outside of 579 00:54:18,900 --> 00:54:24,100 the ops area on more of a IT as a whole and on the business side, which is pretty good. And, uh, 580 00:54:24,100 --> 00:54:28,180 uh, the, the most recent other episode we did is talking with, uh, our very own Justin Smith 581 00:54:28,180 --> 00:54:32,580 about security, which, which is a good episode. I think as with this one and with most pivotal 582 00:54:32,580 --> 00:54:37,860 people, uh, there's a, there, what turns out to be a nerdy conversation about nerdy stuff, 583 00:54:37,860 --> 00:54:42,980 but in a very non nerdy way. So hopefully it's, it's approachable. One of, one of the more, uh, 584 00:54:42,980 --> 00:54:48,020 nicer security people you'll ever talk with just as, as, as we were talking with Tony, uh, you know, 585 00:54:48,020 --> 00:54:52,820 on op stuff, not someone who's just telling you you're doing it wrong and you should go re-evaluate your 586 00:54:52,820 --> 00:54:57,780 life choices. Uh, so, uh, with that, we'll see everyone next time. Bye-bye.