1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,140
Now, I know that you're up in the land of Costco there, so you might actually have a

2
00:00:05,140 --> 00:00:05,460
good...

3
00:00:05,460 --> 00:00:06,720
Do you go to Costco a lot, Richard?

4
00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:08,520
I try to avoid it.

5
00:00:08,740 --> 00:00:13,400
My wife does with our giant school bus-sized car to fill things up, but I try to avoid

6
00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:13,500
it.

7
00:00:13,700 --> 00:00:15,360
You are a Costco family.

8
00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:19,080
However, you may not participate in it as much as possible.

9
00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:20,120
That's right.

10
00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:24,700
You don't find it delightful to go in there and find what Easter eggs they have in the

11
00:00:24,700 --> 00:00:25,680
clothing section?

12
00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:27,540
Maybe a good bottle of wine or beer?

13
00:00:28,340 --> 00:00:32,140
You know, it's the parking lot stresses me out, and then do I need a keg of relish?

14
00:00:32,500 --> 00:00:33,780
It's just the volumes.

15
00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:35,120
Do I need 62 razors?

16
00:00:35,220 --> 00:00:38,600
Like, yeah, so it'll last me until I die, but that's just such an aggressive purchase.

17
00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:40,220
And you've got to be careful.

18
00:00:40,340 --> 00:00:47,560
As listeners to my Software Defined Talk episode, available at softwaredefinetalk.com, sometime

19
00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:54,940
last year, I think, I decided I would go all in on deodorant, and I bought the Costco variant,

20
00:00:54,940 --> 00:00:59,940
which frequent Costco people know that they only carry the Gillette Cool Mint, or whatever

21
00:00:59,940 --> 00:01:00,500
they call it.

22
00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:02,640
It's got something like Cool Breeze or something.

23
00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,360
And, you know, you have to buy, like, eight of them, which is a mistake, because it turns

24
00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:09,240
out that scented deodorant is not a good idea.

25
00:01:09,420 --> 00:01:15,840
So now I've got, like, I've got this Gillette, like, you know, Irish Cool Breeze stuff sitting

26
00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:16,540
under my sink.

27
00:01:16,780 --> 00:01:20,920
You can get the odorless, arid extra odorless, right?

28
00:01:21,060 --> 00:01:22,420
And that's what you can shoot for.

29
00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,860
For Mr. Small Batches over there, you would think Costco would be the antithesis of your

30
00:01:26,860 --> 00:01:27,460
entire life.

31
00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:27,720
Yeah.

32
00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,620
Well, you know, it's part of my mode one approach.

33
00:01:30,940 --> 00:01:36,140
There are certain things that I know we'll just be doing a lot of, and relish is not one

34
00:01:36,140 --> 00:01:36,520
of them.

35
00:01:36,660 --> 00:01:40,400
But I'll tell you what, you got the bread, all the things the kids eat, whatever.

36
00:01:40,820 --> 00:01:41,920
Steaks, you know.

37
00:01:41,940 --> 00:01:43,040
Or a jug of mayonnaise.

38
00:01:43,420 --> 00:01:47,720
But this brings me to my original question, which is, Richard, what is your position on

39
00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:48,560
rotisserie chicken?

40
00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:49,940
I'm a fan.

41
00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,620
You know, it makes a good spontaneous meal sometimes.

42
00:01:53,740 --> 00:01:55,440
Got to get some rotisserie chicken, bring it home.

43
00:01:55,780 --> 00:01:56,040
Uh-huh.

44
00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:56,380
Uh-huh.

45
00:01:56,420 --> 00:01:59,080
I feel like, I feel like, so first of all, I love rotisserie chicken.

46
00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:01,980
I grew up eating rotisserie chicken and Popeye's chicken.

47
00:02:02,260 --> 00:02:05,880
And not like, you know, not unlike, I guess, that Elliot guy over on that podcast.

48
00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,720
But I've been thinking recently, you know, every now and then there's one of these

49
00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:12,600
articles that comes out that's basically like, this food that you always thought was great

50
00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,260
is basically injected with death, right?

51
00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:19,340
Like, with butter or, you know, it's full of sugar, like the people who make it do that.

52
00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:23,860
And I'm wondering, I need to look this up, if there's something about rotisserie chicken

53
00:02:23,860 --> 00:02:26,260
that makes it so delicious that makes it really unhealthy.

54
00:02:26,260 --> 00:02:30,240
Because I feel like, I feel like if I eat a rotisserie chicken, I'm doing all right, you

55
00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:31,260
know, healthy food-wise.

56
00:02:31,460 --> 00:02:33,360
But I don't know, I'm so suspicious.

57
00:02:33,740 --> 00:02:34,940
I wonder, you know, I wonder what they'd like.

58
00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:40,720
I wonder if they sort of like, if they marinate it in a vat of like ghee or like clarified

59
00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:41,700
butter or something.

60
00:02:41,940 --> 00:02:43,800
I mean, there's just something's got to be going on.

61
00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:44,020
Right.

62
00:02:44,220 --> 00:02:47,660
It's like massage with lard or something like that, which you don't want to hear about.

63
00:02:47,860 --> 00:02:48,080
Yeah.

64
00:02:48,220 --> 00:02:48,440
Yeah.

65
00:02:48,500 --> 00:02:49,020
So I don't know.

66
00:02:49,060 --> 00:02:52,920
If anyone knows what's up with rotisserie chicken, I would like, I'd like to know if

67
00:02:52,920 --> 00:02:57,120
it has a clean bill of health or if it's something under advisory that I should, I should eat

68
00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:57,720
in moderation.

69
00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,000
You know, like, like peanut butter is one of these things.

70
00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:01,440
Peanut butter is delicious.

71
00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:05,420
And if you get, if also available at Costco, if you get sort of like the organic, whatever

72
00:03:05,420 --> 00:03:10,160
peanut butter, it's not just like half sugar, like some of the other brands, but it's probably

73
00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:14,700
not a good idea to just like eat a whole Costco tub of peanut butter in one sitting.

74
00:03:14,900 --> 00:03:15,260
Right.

75
00:03:15,420 --> 00:03:15,620
Right.

76
00:03:15,780 --> 00:03:17,600
Like you gotta, you gotta, you gotta control that.

77
00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:18,900
I think nuts on their own are okay.

78
00:03:18,900 --> 00:03:23,540
But once you grind the nuts up, kind of like a fruit juice, you gotta be a little careful,

79
00:03:23,820 --> 00:03:24,080
right?

80
00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,440
No, if you're, if you're eating peanut butter with a spoon, you have to question your life choices.

81
00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:28,020
That's right.

82
00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,860
You got peanut butter on one side and maybe a whole rotisserie chicken on the other.

83
00:03:32,100 --> 00:03:33,920
And you got to figure out what's going on there.

84
00:03:34,220 --> 00:03:37,640
And, and, and apparently, apparently a tub of relish.

85
00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:38,360
Right.

86
00:03:38,460 --> 00:03:40,800
That's just a cry for help is what I'm hearing.

87
00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:42,980
That's good.

88
00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,560
Well, we don't have a, a guest this week.

89
00:03:46,500 --> 00:03:49,860
You may, listeners may, may figure out for me not introducing them.

90
00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:54,460
So I thought we, we actually have a, a bevy if that's still a word of news to go over.

91
00:03:54,460 --> 00:03:55,740
So, so we'll cover some news.

92
00:03:55,740 --> 00:04:01,780
And then I was thinking, so Richard wrote a post recently about debunking cloud foundry

93
00:04:01,780 --> 00:04:02,080
myths.

94
00:04:02,220 --> 00:04:04,240
And I thought we could, we could go over those.

95
00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:09,260
It's a, it's a delightful listicle that's sort of on meme overdrive as well, which is,

96
00:04:09,380 --> 00:04:10,120
which is really fun.

97
00:04:10,260 --> 00:04:12,480
It's always good to see a topical memes.

98
00:04:12,620 --> 00:04:16,520
But, you know, but before we get to the news, did you, uh, did you put together all those

99
00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:18,160
memes who, who, who did it?

100
00:04:18,260 --> 00:04:18,440
Yeah.

101
00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:19,400
I did.

102
00:04:19,460 --> 00:04:23,840
I figured being passive aggressive, it's better to do with humor than, uh, necessarily just

103
00:04:23,840 --> 00:04:24,480
jerk.

104
00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:26,080
So that'd be more fun to have some fun with it.

105
00:04:26,180 --> 00:04:26,380
Yeah.

106
00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:31,360
You've got the, uh, you've got the biting sort of, uh, uh, fisticuffs of marketing.

107
00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:35,960
And then you've got the, uh, you've got the, uh, humor, I guess.

108
00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:37,200
I can't get mad at Ron Burgundy.

109
00:04:37,540 --> 00:04:39,280
Like it just completely diffuses you.

110
00:04:39,620 --> 00:04:41,320
So that's right.

111
00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:41,820
That's right.

112
00:04:41,900 --> 00:04:45,620
I wish we had a Jaguar sound to put in here now, but we don't.

113
00:04:46,420 --> 00:04:50,340
Well, uh, first of all, uh, you know, um, I thought it'd be good to, you know, we bring

114
00:04:50,340 --> 00:04:53,640
this up every now and then, but there's actually a whole bunch of events coming up.

115
00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:55,460
Uh, some of them, uh, pivotal events.

116
00:04:55,580 --> 00:04:59,760
Uh, but this week I was just talking with, uh, with, with Richard about this before we're

117
00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:00,040
recording.

118
00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,440
We have DevOps stays Austin, as you might expect in Austin.

119
00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:07,480
Um, and there's actually, I, I don't, you know, Austin's one of the bigger ones.

120
00:05:07,540 --> 00:05:10,300
I bet they'll have like four or 500 attendees, uh, this year.

121
00:05:10,300 --> 00:05:14,920
They have it down there at the, uh, the, the university of Texas stadium, you know, that's

122
00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:18,000
a American football for people don't know that very large stadium.

123
00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,600
I think, I think we need to recall it the stadium of DevOps.

124
00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,740
It's the second year they've had their, you know, I have mixed feelings about having

125
00:05:23,740 --> 00:05:25,740
it at the stadium, but whatever it's cool.

126
00:05:25,740 --> 00:05:26,120
Right.

127
00:05:26,180 --> 00:05:31,920
And, uh, there's a huge roster of like all the famous DevOps people there, including our very

128
00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:37,020
own Andrew Clay Schaefer, as people like to say, you've got, uh, you've got Nicole there.

129
00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,540
I think Jean Kim, uh, of, of DevOps report fame.

130
00:05:40,820 --> 00:05:44,900
And, uh, I forget if John Willis is showing up, but pretty much all the, uh, all the DevOps

131
00:05:44,900 --> 00:05:48,240
people, I think maybe except for the Belgian guy, uh, will be there.

132
00:05:48,300 --> 00:05:49,620
So, so that'll be fun.

133
00:05:50,020 --> 00:05:51,600
I was at DevOps day Seattle last week.

134
00:05:51,660 --> 00:05:51,960
Oh yeah.

135
00:05:52,060 --> 00:05:52,540
How'd that go?

136
00:05:53,300 --> 00:05:53,660
Good.

137
00:05:53,700 --> 00:05:56,700
I'm actually wearing the shirt today just to show the pride, but just for folks who

138
00:05:56,700 --> 00:06:00,160
maybe wonder if it's worth attending, it definitely has a great vibe as a group.

139
00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:02,620
It seems like everyone's really amped up different backgrounds.

140
00:06:02,780 --> 00:06:04,240
This was not all just ops people.

141
00:06:04,420 --> 00:06:05,260
It was a mix of folks.

142
00:06:05,420 --> 00:06:09,320
So, uh, definitely a ringing endorsement, hopefully for folks who are on the fence of whether to

143
00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:09,760
go or not.

144
00:06:09,980 --> 00:06:13,580
We sponsor a lot of those at pivotal and I go to a, uh, to a lot of them and they're

145
00:06:13,580 --> 00:06:14,800
always, they're always pretty good.

146
00:06:14,840 --> 00:06:21,360
There's, I think, I think there's about maybe like a 30% repetition of topics, but most people

147
00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:23,960
who go to DevOps days don't really go to a whole lot of them.

148
00:06:24,060 --> 00:06:26,120
So I don't think that's a, that's a problem at all.

149
00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:27,000
It's, it's a good show.

150
00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:32,000
And, um, I was just checking to see if the talks for DevOps days, Atlanta are up yet, but

151
00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,680
they're not, but once those are up, maybe we'll put a little link in here.

152
00:06:34,780 --> 00:06:36,980
There was myself and Josh Long talking there.

153
00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:42,220
And then also the week after that, which I guess is next week, uh, technically, uh, there's,

154
00:06:42,280 --> 00:06:44,240
there's OSCON in its new home in Austin.

155
00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:48,940
I think this is the second, maybe third year and, uh, I'll, I'll just be there hanging

156
00:06:48,940 --> 00:06:51,320
out at the booth, uh, just, just doing things.

157
00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:55,760
I am interested, you know, I should talk to you as a source for this, uh, Richard and other

158
00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:59,840
people, but I was talking with my editors over at the register and saying it might be a good

159
00:06:59,840 --> 00:07:05,340
opportunity to, to do a, uh, a WTF open source thing, but I don't know if there's, there's

160
00:07:05,340 --> 00:07:10,120
much, much of a story there beyond sort of like a, uh, classic Matt essay write up, but

161
00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,820
it'd be interesting to see what, uh, what happens in, at OSCON.

162
00:07:12,820 --> 00:07:17,500
And then also, uh, uh, we've got here at pivotal, we've got a bunch of cloud native road shows

163
00:07:17,500 --> 00:07:18,180
coming up.

164
00:07:18,220 --> 00:07:21,920
I think, uh, you know, we've already blown through like three or four of them since we

165
00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,580
started talking about them, but I think later this week, uh, there's one in Charlotte and

166
00:07:25,580 --> 00:07:29,520
then you got Detroit, Toronto, St. Louis, Paris, London, Munich, Stuttgart.

167
00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:30,300
Is that right?

168
00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:36,080
Uh, you got Dallas, Denver, Los Angeles, Seattle, San Francisco, Amsterdam, Seoul, Hong Kong,

169
00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:37,460
Sydney, and Singapore.

170
00:07:38,220 --> 00:07:41,340
Uh, so that, you know, that's all over the, uh, the spring and summer.

171
00:07:41,340 --> 00:07:45,180
And if you go to pivotal.io slash roadshow, you can see a list for all of them.

172
00:07:45,180 --> 00:07:47,340
And those are, uh, those are free to go to.

173
00:07:47,660 --> 00:07:51,900
And I think most all of them are done by pivotal and the people from Google cloud.

174
00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:55,660
So you can get a sense of not only what a pivotal cloud foundry stack and approach would

175
00:07:55,660 --> 00:07:59,780
be like, whether it's on premise or off premise, but also what it would be like running on Google

176
00:07:59,780 --> 00:08:02,780
cloud with the, uh, the Google cloud services tied in there.

177
00:08:02,780 --> 00:08:07,300
And, uh, you know, for those of them who are just looking to fill their, uh, metaphoric

178
00:08:07,300 --> 00:08:11,440
bag of goodies, I believe there's also a free breakfast and lunch at each location.

179
00:08:12,060 --> 00:08:12,340
So nice.

180
00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:13,520
And did you say Singapore?

181
00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:14,960
Have I been saying?

182
00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:20,180
I think Singapore, but maybe I said Singapore as in, uh, I didn't know if I've been saying

183
00:08:20,180 --> 00:08:21,500
it wrong for 40 years of life.

184
00:08:21,620 --> 00:08:22,660
So, uh, yes.

185
00:08:22,940 --> 00:08:24,520
Uh, you know, who knows?

186
00:08:24,660 --> 00:08:25,340
Who knows?

187
00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:26,820
I've never actually been to Singapore.

188
00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:28,220
That would, that would be fun.

189
00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:30,260
I'd like to, I hear it's wonderful.

190
00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:36,320
Uh, and then finally, uh, to not bore everyone with a self-promotion or of in so much as pivotal

191
00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:40,440
and, and I guess I identify with each other, or maybe that's, uh, one directional.

192
00:08:40,660 --> 00:08:44,540
You, we got a spring days is coming up and that's a two day event and it's going to be in

193
00:08:44,540 --> 00:08:46,380
Chicago and New York city and Atlanta.

194
00:08:46,380 --> 00:08:50,820
And that's very much so focused on the spring framework and doing things, uh, in that area.

195
00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:56,880
And, uh, it, it isn't free cost $200, but I feel like $200, you probably spend more

196
00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:00,280
on like, you know, phone charging cables in, in a year than that.

197
00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:05,160
So, uh, it's not that big of a deal, but when I was in Atlanta at DevOps days, a lot of people

198
00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:10,560
were interested in that because as I'm sure you experienced at, uh, DevOps days, uh, Seattle,

199
00:09:10,780 --> 00:09:14,360
a lot of people who come up to the booth are like, yeah, we do spring.

200
00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:18,340
So, uh, in those three cities, you can get the latest on what's happening in the spring

201
00:09:18,340 --> 00:09:22,880
framework, like spring cloud and spring boot and spring cloud data flow that we've talked

202
00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,640
about and pretty much any series of technical words you can think of and put the word

203
00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:27,560
spring in front of it.

204
00:09:27,560 --> 00:09:29,560
I think there's a, uh, a project for that.

205
00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:33,160
So, uh, not to nauseate people, maybe we'll come back to the last two items at the end

206
00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:33,700
of the episode.

207
00:09:34,060 --> 00:09:38,020
Cause, uh, you know, we don't want to just throw out a bunch of ads, I guess.

208
00:09:39,500 --> 00:09:42,780
So what, uh, what news have you been looking at, uh, since last we recorded?

209
00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:45,560
Yeah, there's a couple of things listed out.

210
00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:47,440
There's last week was all the earnings stuff.

211
00:09:47,620 --> 00:09:48,860
So, Hey, Twitter did well.

212
00:09:49,140 --> 00:09:50,500
Amazon was way up.

213
00:09:50,580 --> 00:09:52,560
They hired, I tweeted it wrong.

214
00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:54,380
Cause I said AWS added a Microsoft.

215
00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:58,940
Amazon added a Microsoft, they had 110,000 employees, which is about the size of Microsoft.

216
00:09:58,940 --> 00:10:02,440
So Amazon got bigger, uh, still making lots of money.

217
00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:03,200
Google did well.

218
00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,300
Microsoft had something like 90 something percent growth in Azure.

219
00:10:06,500 --> 00:10:09,320
So, Hey, big companies be making lots of money.

220
00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,060
So that was always, I mean, interesting to see.

221
00:10:12,140 --> 00:10:15,740
I think again, for our industry, it's good to see that people are still betting on these

222
00:10:15,740 --> 00:10:18,280
large platforms, especially the big three cloud providers.

223
00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:22,340
Uh, the other thing I listed out, which I think I tweeted it yesterday too, was Dom, there was

224
00:10:22,340 --> 00:10:24,600
a story about Domino's and digital transformation.

225
00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,840
And it was interesting because the take was, Hey, sometimes companies and Coté, you probably

226
00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:32,640
see this company sometimes think of it transformation and think of internal.

227
00:10:32,820 --> 00:10:34,440
They think of the employee experience.

228
00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:39,460
They think of, you know, optimizing delivery and all these things that are useful, but still

229
00:10:39,460 --> 00:10:40,300
internal facing.

230
00:10:40,300 --> 00:10:44,520
And this was a story more about look at Domino's pizza and how they've, they've changed how you

231
00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:48,480
order and they've have, you know, this giant percentage of people who order through an app

232
00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:49,480
now versus a phone.

233
00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:54,200
And so they've digitized the customer versus necessarily solely being inward focusing.

234
00:10:54,380 --> 00:10:55,320
I thought that was interesting.

235
00:10:55,440 --> 00:11:00,180
And then today there was a story on, you know, Domino's using if this, then that to kind

236
00:11:00,180 --> 00:11:02,340
of, you know, turn off your sprinklers when the pizza man arrives.

237
00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:04,180
You could hook that up.

238
00:11:04,180 --> 00:11:08,580
I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, uh, I didn't go read that story, but I figured it being from

239
00:11:08,580 --> 00:11:12,380
the internet, it would be the opposite of what you're saying is that you would turn it

240
00:11:12,380 --> 00:11:14,380
on when, when the pizza person came, but maybe.

241
00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:18,720
Maybe that's what the read it people would be up to versus the, uh, the nice internet.

242
00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:19,360
Yeah.

243
00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:24,120
The, uh, I came across that, that, uh, you know, the, I think the thing I came across

244
00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,160
was, uh, this guy, I think he's still at BMC John hall.

245
00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:31,760
And he writes a lot of, uh, a lot of good stuff like this kind of pointing out how mainstream

246
00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:33,800
it stuff is, is doing all right.

247
00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:38,460
And, you know, one of the points was that the, uh, as one way of measuring it, that the

248
00:11:38,460 --> 00:11:43,080
share price of Domino's has had a huge percentage of growth compared to all the tech companies,

249
00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:46,880
even including Apple and, you know, again, it's just like one way of doing things, but

250
00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:49,480
yeah, you know, you can order pizza from your watch.

251
00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:55,860
And if I remember, uh, basically it seems like their idea was wherever, wherever our pizza

252
00:11:55,860 --> 00:11:59,560
loving people are, we want them to be able to effortlessly order a pizza.

253
00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:03,120
And I remember one of them was like, uh, I forget if this is everywhere, at least in the

254
00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:07,620
UK that you can set it up that by default, when you open up the Domino's app with, if you

255
00:12:07,620 --> 00:12:11,420
don't do anything in 10 seconds, it'll just automatically order a pizza for you, which,

256
00:12:11,420 --> 00:12:17,800
you know, uh, that, that would be dangerous for people like, like me who likes to select

257
00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:21,960
things, uh, when, when I get a pizza, but I can see that it's, it's an interesting study

258
00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,340
of like, uh, how do we just get pizza to people?

259
00:12:24,340 --> 00:12:29,040
It also reminded me of, um, I forget if we mentioned this, but, but our, uh, our, uh,

260
00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:34,600
I don't know, our, our, our big brother people, Dell Technologies has a little podcast series

261
00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:35,880
with, uh, Walter Isaac.

262
00:12:36,260 --> 00:12:37,660
Is it Isaac or Isaacson?

263
00:12:37,740 --> 00:12:42,780
The guy who wrote the, uh, most famously this, the Steve Jobs biography, the authorized biography.

264
00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:50,180
Um, and, and episode three that they did appropriately called a slice of disruption is, uh, it's all

265
00:12:50,180 --> 00:12:54,140
about, uh, how, how Domino's has been doing this and a lot of detail on it.

266
00:12:54,140 --> 00:12:59,400
And they asked me to help them out with an accompanying story about DevOps and digital

267
00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:00,160
hootenannies.

268
00:13:00,540 --> 00:13:02,720
And so you can, uh, you can go check that out.

269
00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:06,100
I, uh, there's, there's, there's some commentary about all state and other pivotal

270
00:13:06,100 --> 00:13:12,460
customers there, but, you know, to be honest, I'm usually a little like leery of, uh, big

271
00:13:12,460 --> 00:13:16,100
corporate sponsored sort of like advertorial stuff like that.

272
00:13:16,100 --> 00:13:20,340
But this is actually a really good episode, uh, that, that I listened to because I'm always

273
00:13:20,340 --> 00:13:26,200
interested in, in hearing the exact before, after details and, and pretty, pretty rock solid

274
00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:28,360
success momentum of companies doing things.

275
00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:33,080
And I think, I think aside from some, the usual kind of narration that people like to do

276
00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:35,700
the, uh, the business side of that episode's pretty good.

277
00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:37,440
So it's definitely worth checking out.

278
00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:38,440
Yeah.

279
00:13:38,580 --> 00:13:42,720
And I think, again, the fact that the Domino's thing, I think it's just, if you, I know most

280
00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,840
of the listeners here don't work at pizza places, but they do work at retail insurance,

281
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:48,880
banking, government manufacturing.

282
00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:53,160
And I would bet there's a lot of these sort of thoughtful customer facing automations

283
00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:57,580
that you could be doing that actually give you really loyal fans versus just hostages

284
00:13:57,580 --> 00:13:58,340
as customers.

285
00:13:58,480 --> 00:13:59,920
So I like that kind of thinking.

286
00:14:00,300 --> 00:14:00,420
Yeah.

287
00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,360
And, and also, I mean, to that point, as far as the applicability of it, right?

288
00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:08,680
Like if you think about, uh, if you think about the margins of a pizza delivery business,

289
00:14:08,680 --> 00:14:14,160
they're incredibly small, which is to say they don't have a lot of cash to just play around

290
00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:14,460
with.

291
00:14:14,460 --> 00:14:20,820
And so the fact that they decided to allocate cash to, uh, do actual, uh, cloud native kind

292
00:14:20,820 --> 00:14:24,580
of stuff, uh, it's, it's good proof that sort of like anyone can do it.

293
00:14:24,580 --> 00:14:26,920
Even, uh, even companies with tiny margins.

294
00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:31,820
I mean, you know, it's not like food service companies have lots of money to spend on things.

295
00:14:31,820 --> 00:14:35,760
So the fact that they prioritize that and it's worked out well for them, for those companies

296
00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:39,720
that have, I don't know, say double digit margins and actually have money to spend on

297
00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,300
things, it should illustrate that it's, uh, definitely possible to do.

298
00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:43,800
Great point.

299
00:14:43,940 --> 00:14:45,400
So what, what else do we got going on?

300
00:14:45,500 --> 00:14:45,720
Yeah.

301
00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:51,060
I pointed out, uh, you'll see in the notes, Kubo, if you remember is our Kubernetes built

302
00:14:51,060 --> 00:14:55,500
with Bosch thing that we announced at Google cloud next back in, I think it was March.

303
00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:57,680
And we've had a couple of releases since then.

304
00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,440
So this wasn't just some weird gimmicky thing we did just to get some press at a conference.

305
00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:03,100
We've been making some updates.

306
00:15:03,100 --> 00:15:04,580
So it's the latest version of Kubernetes.

307
00:15:04,580 --> 00:15:08,720
We've added some things so that routing can come through the cloud foundry router and kind

308
00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:10,680
of expose your Kubernetes apps publicly.

309
00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,920
So again, when you're looking for that single control plane for all of your different platform

310
00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:19,220
type things, Kubo is, uh, continue to be invested in pretty heavily.

311
00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:21,520
So I think that's pretty neat to see the evolution there.

312
00:15:21,620 --> 00:15:25,760
The other thing I listed out was, uh, so every quarter pivotal does these pivotal partner

313
00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:30,820
days where a bunch of partners can come in or prospective partners can come on site

314
00:15:31,060 --> 00:15:35,520
and mess with us for two days, kind of pair with us and build integrations into the platform.

315
00:15:35,580 --> 00:15:39,600
And hopefully out of that come interesting integrations that you, the customer can use.

316
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,840
And so there's a few things I was just browsing around the pivotal network marketplace on Friday

317
00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:49,320
and noticed some, some cool new things like cloud flare, uh, uh, Jenkins coming from our

318
00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:54,020
friend at alterose pager, do the honeycombs, like some really cool tech that was now in our

319
00:15:54,020 --> 00:15:55,520
marketplace for beta tryout.

320
00:15:55,620 --> 00:15:58,340
Most of those, I think all of those actually came out of the last partner days.

321
00:15:58,340 --> 00:16:03,840
So you as a customer, I guess, keep checking out the pivotal app store, if you will, to

322
00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:08,120
see if there's some, you know, maybe you're using a more classic monitoring tool and want

323
00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:12,360
to upgrade what that looks like for cloud native, or you are starting to push apps to the cloud

324
00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:14,360
more and you want to do a real CDN solution.

325
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,640
It's just, it's a great place to start trying some things out that are purposely built and

326
00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:19,740
integrated into the platform.

327
00:16:19,860 --> 00:16:25,100
I went to one of those, uh, those pivotal partner days, I don't know, several months ago.

328
00:16:25,100 --> 00:16:31,760
Cause it was in Austin and, uh, I basically showed up and, and I was late, uh, which, you

329
00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:33,560
know, that's, I guess that's what I do.

330
00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:38,240
Uh, and, uh, and then there were actual, like, everyone was like pairing up and actually coding.

331
00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,960
And so I kind of poked my head in and realized, you know, there was no reason for me to be

332
00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:42,220
there.

333
00:16:42,220 --> 00:16:46,780
So I had the free lunch and left, uh, but it was, there was actually like a lot of, uh,

334
00:16:46,780 --> 00:16:48,640
actual real life things going on there.

335
00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:50,800
They're, they're, uh, they're working things, if you will.

336
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:55,320
So if you're someone interested in, in helping out in the, uh, the overall, I don't know,

337
00:16:55,380 --> 00:16:59,700
cloud foundry, pivotal cloud foundry ecosystem, it's definitely, uh, it's definitely not just,

338
00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:03,300
uh, you know, a mouthful of slides that you go see there, you end up actually doing work.

339
00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:08,160
And, uh, so, uh, the last thing is I was just noticing this morning, the Uptime Institute

340
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:13,500
and they're, they're, uh, unless I'm tragically wrong or I don't know, tragically, unless I'm

341
00:17:13,500 --> 00:17:17,660
wrong, they're still owned by a four or five one research where I used to be an analyst,

342
00:17:17,660 --> 00:17:18,860
but they've been around for a while.

343
00:17:18,860 --> 00:17:22,440
And there was an overview of a survey that they did that I thought was interesting and

344
00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:26,740
relevant, especially to, uh, the sort of like, uh, cloud native kind of world.

345
00:17:26,740 --> 00:17:31,420
And, and, and the, the sort of like, uh, top line thing was that according to their survey,

346
00:17:31,420 --> 00:17:35,520
and I think it was maybe like 2,500, 3,000 people that they surveyed and to give you another

347
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:36,440
idea of demographics.

348
00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:40,640
So when I work there, I would, uh, I would come, I would talk, work with Uptime people

349
00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:42,160
every now and then, and they do a couple of things.

350
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:46,960
One, they just cover research for people who build and run data centers, like the actual

351
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:47,960
data centers.

352
00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:50,040
Uh, I don't know why I repeated that.

353
00:17:50,660 --> 00:17:57,200
And, uh, and, uh, but they also, they do certification and I think they have their own kind of certification

354
00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:59,960
scale of like, like all certifications.

355
00:17:59,960 --> 00:18:02,740
It's sort of like how awesome you are at doing the thing.

356
00:18:02,740 --> 00:18:06,720
And so they would, I think it's like tier one to three that they would certify your data

357
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:12,260
center was at, which, you know, all the usual stuff of being unbreakable and whatnot that,

358
00:18:12,260 --> 00:18:14,140
uh, and resiliency that you would rate there.

359
00:18:14,140 --> 00:18:18,760
So they, they encounter and work with a lot of people who run data centers.

360
00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:20,860
So their survey base is probably pretty legit.

361
00:18:20,860 --> 00:18:27,180
So anyways, uh, they were saying that at the moment, there's still about a 65% of workloads

362
00:18:27,180 --> 00:18:29,640
are running in on-premises data centers.

363
00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:36,700
And by that they mean largely not public cloud, whether it's co-load or on actual owned things

364
00:18:36,700 --> 00:18:39,000
that organizations own on their own or whatever.

365
00:18:39,340 --> 00:18:44,780
And, you know, as I was doing in my little writeup that we'll link to over on my own blog

366
00:18:44,780 --> 00:18:50,140
at cote.io, like it's, it's always interesting to see this kind of stuff because, uh, I think,

367
00:18:50,140 --> 00:18:55,080
especially in the roles that you and I are in, uh, you encounter this sentiment that it's,

368
00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,700
uh, most everyone must be running in public cloud at the moment.

369
00:18:57,700 --> 00:19:02,060
And, uh, I recall even all the way back to, uh, I mean, I used to be one of these people

370
00:19:02,060 --> 00:19:02,580
more or less.

371
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:08,860
I recall back in, uh, in 2012 or so, uh, back when I was at Dell, we were doing a tour, uh,

372
00:19:08,860 --> 00:19:10,480
up in new England of all the analysts.

373
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:16,580
And, and I remember there was, uh, well, I received a fantastic CD of, um, who was it?

374
00:19:16,860 --> 00:19:22,080
The Allman brothers playing famously playing live at some, some, uh, some, some venue.

375
00:19:22,220 --> 00:19:24,760
Cause I think the, uh, George is a colony.

376
00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,920
Whoever heads up, uh, Forrester is a big, like Allman brothers and live music fan.

377
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:30,180
There's like guitars in the lobby.

378
00:19:30,360 --> 00:19:36,580
So every guest receives it's an Altmont or something receives one of these CDs, which that,

379
00:19:36,580 --> 00:19:37,740
that's a nice thing to get.

380
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:42,980
Anyhow, in that room with a bunch of the, the analysts, there was a, uh, a raging debate

381
00:19:42,980 --> 00:19:48,140
amongst themselves about on-premise versus cloud IT back in, uh, 2012 or so.

382
00:19:48,140 --> 00:19:54,980
And it seems like in my own anecdotal experience and by surveys, uh, public cloud still hasn't,

383
00:19:54,980 --> 00:19:56,120
uh, gobbled up everything.

384
00:19:56,120 --> 00:20:00,680
There's still a lot of on-premise going on, which is what we find amongst, uh, pivotal

385
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:01,820
cloud foundry customers.

386
00:20:01,820 --> 00:20:04,760
I think, I don't know if it's every single customer.

387
00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,160
I'm trying to not be hyperbolic in my phrasing as much as I usually.

388
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:13,200
But pretty much all customers, how's, how's that for, uh, you know, not being a hundred

389
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:17,700
percent, but pretty much all customers that, that we work with run on premise, but equally

390
00:20:17,700 --> 00:20:22,260
pretty much all of them would like to use a public cloud, if not move most of their stuff

391
00:20:22,260 --> 00:20:25,140
to public cloud in the, uh, the near and long-term future.

392
00:20:25,140 --> 00:20:26,460
So I don't know.

393
00:20:26,460 --> 00:20:31,120
The, the upshot is that, uh, I don't think anyone should be surprised that there's so

394
00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:36,380
much on-premise IT and, uh, cause there's a lot of it, which doesn't invalidate public

395
00:20:36,380 --> 00:20:36,780
cloud.

396
00:20:36,780 --> 00:20:42,080
Uh, and I think ultimately like the way that I think about it with myself, when I sit around

397
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:46,740
thinking about cloud with myself, I guess, is like, I'm pretty sure at some point in the

398
00:20:46,740 --> 00:20:51,440
next 10 years, we won't have this distinction of, uh, on premise, you know, off premise as

399
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:57,580
much as we do and it'll just be the stuff that, that, that was, that was a good roundup, but

400
00:20:57,580 --> 00:21:01,700
it'll just be, you know, like the overall cloud that we use to, uh, to run everything

401
00:21:01,700 --> 00:21:05,500
regardless of where it's physically located, except for sovereignty stuff and things like

402
00:21:05,500 --> 00:21:05,740
that.

403
00:21:05,740 --> 00:21:05,920
Yeah.

404
00:21:05,940 --> 00:21:09,000
That 65% actually seems low or I guess high.

405
00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:10,920
I would expect it to be more of it was still on-prem.

406
00:21:11,220 --> 00:21:11,480
Yeah.

407
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:13,500
It's actually slower than I would have thought.

408
00:21:13,580 --> 00:21:16,440
Actually, I would have thought it'd be still more like 75 or 80 or something like that.

409
00:21:16,460 --> 00:21:17,080
So that's interesting.

410
00:21:17,380 --> 00:21:17,640
Yeah.

411
00:21:17,780 --> 00:21:18,000
Yeah.

412
00:21:18,020 --> 00:21:21,360
You know, I was also thinking like after I had looked at it this morning, that

413
00:21:21,360 --> 00:21:25,920
I mean, I suppose I could try to go get the original survey and dive into it, but you

414
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:29,520
know, I also got to prep for this podcast and do other things with my time.

415
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:29,780
Yeah.

416
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:31,320
That, that feels like a lot of work.

417
00:21:31,380 --> 00:21:31,620
Yeah.

418
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:36,300
It's lots of work, lots of work, but, uh, uh, you know, it, there, there probably is

419
00:21:36,300 --> 00:21:36,720
some interest.

420
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:41,980
It would be interesting to look at the workload types like package software or batch job software,

421
00:21:41,980 --> 00:21:45,780
uh, you know, a whole bunch of things like that versus custom written software applications

422
00:21:45,780 --> 00:21:46,640
and stuff like that.

423
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,560
Because I think I would suspect if you were to look at a cut of custom written software,

424
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:55,880
uh, that number would probably be lower because you've got a whole bunch of mobile apps and,

425
00:21:56,020 --> 00:22:00,280
and, uh, just other things that are new applications that, that might be running on public cloud

426
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:00,520
more.

427
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:01,100
Who knows?

428
00:22:01,260 --> 00:22:05,600
And then if you also, if you throw in things like, you know, Dropbox and box and other

429
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,660
stuff, who, who knows what it would be?

430
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:08,260
That's right.

431
00:22:08,460 --> 00:22:12,300
Well, we'll have a little cameo from my daughter on here before she leaves the room.

432
00:22:12,300 --> 00:22:17,220
She, she, of course, will be a, uh, a cloud native that probably doesn't even identify

433
00:22:17,220 --> 00:22:18,900
that being three years old.

434
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:20,360
It'll just all be cloud to her.

435
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:22,980
She'll be a, uh, what would they call that generation?

436
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,020
The, uh, the, the millennial Xers that that'll be exciting.

437
00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:29,020
Yeah, that's awesome.

438
00:22:29,060 --> 00:22:32,320
I know I, it's a, we'll see what names they're running out of leathers, so they'll have to

439
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:32,800
come up with something.

440
00:22:32,940 --> 00:22:33,240
Oh yeah.

441
00:22:33,340 --> 00:22:34,700
They'll start doubling up on them.

442
00:22:34,700 --> 00:22:37,180
Like the airport parking, it's like double a hair.

443
00:22:37,180 --> 00:22:40,120
Let me try to take her downstairs and then I'll just edit this part.

444
00:22:40,220 --> 00:22:40,820
Hold on a moment.

445
00:22:40,820 --> 00:22:41,180
Sure.

446
00:22:41,500 --> 00:22:41,820
Sure.

447
00:22:42,300 --> 00:22:42,920
All right.

448
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:43,980
I think we should be fine.

449
00:22:44,300 --> 00:22:44,700
All right.

450
00:22:44,780 --> 00:22:48,740
Well, like I said, I wanted to go over, uh, I don't know, several weeks back, I think that

451
00:22:48,740 --> 00:22:51,080
you did this post, but I thought it was a good roundup.

452
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:55,220
I don't know myths to use your title that people have about cloud foundry.

453
00:22:55,420 --> 00:22:59,140
And, uh, yeah, I mean, I mean, it is good because of course in our, in our, in our, uh,

454
00:22:59,140 --> 00:23:03,760
marketing position, we, uh, you much so more than me, uh, spend a lot of time on counter

455
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:04,620
counter arguments.

456
00:23:05,060 --> 00:23:07,740
So I thought it was a, uh, a good wrap up of things.

457
00:23:07,860 --> 00:23:08,000
Yeah.

458
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:09,480
I'll be interested in your take on some of these.

459
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,500
I mean, this, this really just came from, I mean, look, you and I'm going to be

460
00:23:11,500 --> 00:23:15,380
I mean, look, you and I spend a lot of time also reading online and, you know, listening

461
00:23:15,380 --> 00:23:16,620
to hear what customers say.

462
00:23:16,620 --> 00:23:19,900
And in many cases, these myths are not, it's not nefarious.

463
00:23:20,100 --> 00:23:25,220
It's that people, you know, you do drive by product announcements and like, oh, okay, this

464
00:23:25,220 --> 00:23:26,080
is what this thing is.

465
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:30,040
And you instantly form an opinion, sometimes not founded in total fact, but you just kind

466
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,900
of get the snippet and you got the, you know, the Twitter experience from it.

467
00:23:33,060 --> 00:23:37,900
And so the point of this was how do we look at some of the top things I've heard from

468
00:23:37,900 --> 00:23:42,480
customers, from even competitors, from the market and just, you know, where are those

469
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:43,760
things that we can help clear things up?

470
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,100
I mean, the point of it was not to throw mud.

471
00:23:46,180 --> 00:23:49,880
If anything, it was just to actually provide clarity and say, hey, if you thought the product

472
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:50,720
was this, here, it's that.

473
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,600
It still may not be the right fit or maybe it is the right fit now, but let's make sure

474
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,140
we're all working with the right set of facts.

475
00:23:56,780 --> 00:24:02,440
One of the things I've noticed even more having worked here over two years is there's a disadvantage

476
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:10,280
that an enterprise software vendor has in releasing things as frequently as we do, like every three

477
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:16,400
or four months or so, which is it's, you can't exactly go to the internet and correct all the

478
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:17,860
previous write-ups of things.

479
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:23,800
So you do have to like spend a lot of time saying now this is different or we've added this

480
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:25,960
functionality or fixed this sort of thing.

481
00:24:26,660 --> 00:24:28,980
And yeah, I mean, that's a difficulty to do.

482
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:33,140
So I think every now and then it's good to sort of just like come in and say like, here's

483
00:24:33,140 --> 00:24:36,460
sort of like the baseline of features and functionalities that we do.

484
00:24:36,460 --> 00:24:41,020
And I think getting into it, you know, some of them in particular are the, there's a cluster

485
00:24:41,020 --> 00:24:47,260
of them that I would call, you can only run special applications on this, which I think

486
00:24:47,260 --> 00:24:52,960
as you get into writing is not exactly the case that you have to be these super cloud native

487
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:53,360
apps.

488
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:54,080
That's right.

489
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:58,400
I mean, if you break everything down, it really comes down to, you know, I think sometimes

490
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,840
us putting this into a too small of a box and saying like, hey, yeah, it's just for cloud

491
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:07,560
native stuff or, hey, it's just for microservices or, hey, I can't run this or, you know, it's not for

492
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:09,060
that or it's too enterprisey.

493
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,840
Heck, I saw a conversation this weekend talking about that.

494
00:25:12,180 --> 00:25:16,480
So, I mean, if we go through a couple of them, you know, in that categorization, I'd called

495
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,640
out, you know, the apps that run on CF.

496
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:23,100
It's really easy because we talk a lot about, I mean, you and I, and even on roadshows talking

497
00:25:23,100 --> 00:25:27,880
about cloud native apps, because for the most part, it seems like the consensus is that is

498
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:29,980
the right future for everyone to be adopting.

499
00:25:30,100 --> 00:25:32,880
It doesn't matter if it runs on-prem or in the cloud.

500
00:25:32,980 --> 00:25:36,940
You should be building apps for resilience and scale and fault tolerance and all those

501
00:25:36,940 --> 00:25:38,060
sort of fun things and velocity.

502
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:43,660
But at the same time, I mean, Coté, you and I were actually both reading some notes this

503
00:25:43,660 --> 00:25:47,680
weekend from the field from an unnamed customer who just finished up, you know, the third week

504
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:52,620
of a dojo with us doing replatforming, and they were just going nuts about how easily this

505
00:25:52,620 --> 00:25:56,480
person who had never touched boot had a boot app deployed that afternoon and how they had

506
00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:00,840
added all this test coverage and CICD, and they were just blown away that they were getting

507
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:01,360
to prod.

508
00:26:01,460 --> 00:26:06,200
So, these weren't Greenfield, let's build sprinklers to talk to my pizza sort of apps.

509
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:12,300
This was like, hey, these are just existing legacy apps, and we're doing some light modernization

510
00:26:12,300 --> 00:26:13,000
so they run.

511
00:26:13,140 --> 00:26:17,460
So, when I look at CF, it's not just microservices, although we talk about that a lot.

512
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,900
It's data-driven apps, it's event-driven apps, it's background jobs, it's all the sort of

513
00:26:21,900 --> 00:26:27,620
things that make up most portfolios, and that pool of things that don't fit is really shrinking

514
00:26:27,620 --> 00:26:28,620
every single release.

515
00:26:28,980 --> 00:26:29,020
Yeah.

516
00:26:29,220 --> 00:26:34,760
I think one of the things that, you know, it's one of those things where it slightly hurts

517
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,980
us commercially to kind of have this position.

518
00:26:37,980 --> 00:26:43,560
But I think our position is that by default, right, you should do things in a cloud-native

519
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:44,320
way, right?

520
00:26:44,420 --> 00:26:48,940
And the whole point is, as you're highlighting from, as I recall, that large manufacturer,

521
00:26:49,620 --> 00:26:55,520
that it's probably better to do things in this new cloud-native way than in the previous

522
00:26:55,520 --> 00:27:02,140
ways of doing things, because it's been demonstrated from, you know, your unicorn-y Spotify's and Netflix-y's

523
00:27:02,140 --> 00:27:06,820
all the way to, like, you know, these manufacturers and insurance companies and banks, that when you do

524
00:27:06,820 --> 00:27:12,980
things in this new way, it's better, right, by all productivity and business value sort of metrics.

525
00:27:13,700 --> 00:27:18,720
And, you know, if you don't want to do things that way, then you'll have less better sometimes, right?

526
00:27:18,780 --> 00:27:25,020
Now, in other instances, the improvements that you get are just all about, like, fixing parts of your process.

527
00:27:25,140 --> 00:27:27,520
They're kind of like local optimizations that you can do.

528
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:36,620
So, you know, we have one of our more public and larger customers is Comcast.

529
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:43,760
They often say that they have, like, 900 or 1,000 applications running on Pivotal Cloud Foundry.

530
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,920
And from talking with them, you know, some of those applications, I mean, not all of those

531
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:52,500
are brand-new cloud-native applications that are Greenfield, because they've only been doing

532
00:27:52,500 --> 00:27:53,460
it for, like, two years.

533
00:27:53,740 --> 00:27:58,500
And, well, I don't know, maybe they're awesome, and they could write over 1,000 applications

534
00:27:58,500 --> 00:27:59,280
from scratch.

535
00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:02,480
But some of those, many of those have just been migrated.

536
00:28:03,100 --> 00:28:06,960
And you see that from other people like Liberty Mutual talking about migrating some of their

537
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:07,920
existing applications.

538
00:28:08,120 --> 00:28:11,880
So you definitely, there are lots of people who run existing applications.

539
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:16,700
But, again, what we like to highlight most often are the newer, brand-new applications that

540
00:28:16,700 --> 00:28:18,500
get huge, huge improvements.

541
00:28:18,500 --> 00:28:24,540
And they really focus on kind of like our high-level pitch of things, is that once you put all of

542
00:28:24,540 --> 00:28:28,960
this cloud-native stuff in place, the idea is that you get, as I like to say, you get a

543
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:33,300
more programmable business, where you can start to do new business models and new things.

544
00:28:34,120 --> 00:28:37,980
But, yeah, a huge part of it is making sure that your legacy stuff doesn't drag you down.

545
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,500
And there's plenty of that scurrying about in cloud land.

546
00:28:41,700 --> 00:28:42,340
That's a great point.

547
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:47,720
You know, then the sort of sister argument to that is, but, hey, these apps are kind of

548
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:48,700
Cloud Foundry-specific.

549
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:53,060
We sat down with an analyst a month or so ago, and it's somebody who we're friendly with, and

550
00:28:53,060 --> 00:28:54,080
we do a lot of briefings.

551
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,460
But this person still thought, like, hey, I build a Buildpack app, and then I deploy that

552
00:28:58,460 --> 00:28:59,880
Buildpack app to Cloud Foundry.

553
00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:01,120
I think, wait, wait, no, wait a second.

554
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:02,480
These are just apps.

555
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:07,780
Like, start new Spring Boot Project, start new Node.js Project, .NET Project, and then

556
00:29:07,780 --> 00:29:08,780
literally just push it.

557
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:14,040
Like, the Buildpack is actually how we take your source code and kind of create the necessary,

558
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,340
you know, pull in dependencies, lay down the app server.

559
00:29:16,460 --> 00:29:19,380
Like, you build the little blob that becomes the container.

560
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,060
But that's always just, that's build process stuff.

561
00:29:22,140 --> 00:29:23,680
Your app is just your app.

562
00:29:24,180 --> 00:29:29,200
And so that sometimes gets confused that Cloud Foundry injects some sort of weird hooks in

563
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,140
there that lock me in or make it really hard to move my app elsewhere.

564
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:33,760
Like, bring a Docker container.

565
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:35,100
Bring your source code.

566
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,560
If you don't want to have any specific CF hooks, you don't need them.

567
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,180
Almost just like dropping things into EC2 in AWS.

568
00:29:42,180 --> 00:29:47,120
Like, I could just throw my generic app in a virtual machine, use no first-party services

569
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,360
because I'm scared of lock-in or things.

570
00:29:49,660 --> 00:29:52,920
Or I say, let's use some of these first-party services and take advantage.

571
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:53,840
It's all up to you.

572
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:58,560
So Cloud Foundry is opinionated, but at the same time doesn't impose too many things on

573
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:00,260
your app that keeps it from going elsewhere.

574
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:00,820
Yeah.

575
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:02,780
And, you know, we referenced him earlier.

576
00:30:02,780 --> 00:30:07,940
Like, if you ever see a Josh Long talk, like, I mean, it kind of follows the line of what

577
00:30:07,940 --> 00:30:11,960
you're saying is he just basically, I think he has IntelliJ installed on his machine.

578
00:30:12,180 --> 00:30:14,040
But he basically just starts from scratch.

579
00:30:14,100 --> 00:30:18,940
And if you know his talk, he tells you multiple times that you just go to start.spring.io.

580
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:27,320
And everything that he builds is extremely portable and, you know, based on very open spring things.

581
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:32,500
And then, you know, I don't know if he ever actually gets to the point, much to the sort

582
00:30:32,500 --> 00:30:36,740
of, like, market-y mind hat that I have on my hat rack, much to my chagrin.

583
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,980
He doesn't always get to the point of running it in Pivotal Cloud Foundry.

584
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:45,180
But, you know, obviously running Spring Boot applications at Pivotal Cloud Foundry is great.

585
00:30:45,260 --> 00:30:50,760
But there's plenty of things that are extremely portable in ways of developing applications

586
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:52,800
that aren't some weird, funky thing.

587
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:57,700
And then also, admittedly, I haven't, like, looked at build packs in a long time.

588
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:03,620
But as I recall, when I looked at them, they're basically pretty generic manifests that, you

589
00:31:03,620 --> 00:31:09,940
know, again, follow a 12-factor sort of externalized configuration and dependency mapping stuff to

590
00:31:09,940 --> 00:31:10,720
externalize it.

591
00:31:10,820 --> 00:31:14,700
But they really just sort of, like, point at your source code and your application and talk

592
00:31:14,700 --> 00:31:16,340
about the services that you want to use.

593
00:31:16,500 --> 00:31:21,380
And I would suspect it's not that complicated of a thing to, like, convert what you have

594
00:31:21,380 --> 00:31:23,540
in a build pack to whatever other format that you want.

595
00:31:23,620 --> 00:31:24,540
They're extremely lightweight.

596
00:31:24,820 --> 00:31:29,920
And then, you know, so it's not necessarily that they're, it's, this is, you know, another

597
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,360
point is lock-in, which is, like, a whole other rant.

598
00:31:32,500 --> 00:31:37,740
But it's sort of like, of course, if you want to move your application to a platform that doesn't

599
00:31:37,740 --> 00:31:40,560
use build packs, you cannot use the build packs.

600
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,080
But it's very easy to translate them around and move them.

601
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,420
They're just, they're just little YAML files.

602
00:31:46,860 --> 00:31:50,420
Well, I mean, and a build pack just, you know, it's a set of scripts that more or less define

603
00:31:50,420 --> 00:31:54,200
what should your code look like in prod when it packages it up and says, hey, look, here is

604
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,860
the Tomcat server or here's, you know, if I don't have it embedded, here's the different

605
00:31:57,860 --> 00:31:59,760
things I need to actually run this thing.

606
00:31:59,820 --> 00:32:00,500
It's late binding.

607
00:32:00,660 --> 00:32:05,060
It's saying, do I want a developer to necessarily build the container or do I want the platform

608
00:32:05,060 --> 00:32:05,420
to?

609
00:32:05,580 --> 00:32:06,780
And those are both your choices.

610
00:32:06,780 --> 00:32:09,400
You just choose which level of responsibility you want to take.

611
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:11,660
So none of these impose anything on your app.

612
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:12,740
It's just, it's fine.

613
00:32:12,820 --> 00:32:16,620
It's something that people have kind of gotten used to now that we want to make sure people

614
00:32:16,620 --> 00:32:18,900
see it's extensible as well as it's opinionated.

615
00:32:19,220 --> 00:32:23,380
One of your favorite things being an MVP type is the .NET support, right?

616
00:32:25,140 --> 00:32:25,780
That's right.

617
00:32:25,940 --> 00:32:30,100
So, you know, that's another one where, I mean, historically, coming from the .NET background

618
00:32:30,100 --> 00:32:33,960
myself, there weren't a whole lot of places to run Windows apps, mainly because licensing

619
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,700
was such a pain in the neck for everybody that every platform would just advertise what they

620
00:32:37,700 --> 00:32:38,340
did with Linux.

621
00:32:38,500 --> 00:32:42,520
Like, hey, run Ruby, run Node, run Java, you know, and that's it.

622
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,720
And so you would use Azure or you would use some really sort of niche providers that could

623
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:47,540
do Windows stuff.

624
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:52,080
Now, Cloud Foundry always, for years, actually had support to kind of bolt on Windows.

625
00:32:52,260 --> 00:32:53,520
And we had done that for a while.

626
00:32:53,740 --> 00:32:59,080
And then .NET Core came out, which lets you run kind of .NET apps on Linux, which is cool.

627
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:03,240
And many vendors now tout their .NET support when really what they mean is .NET Core support,

628
00:33:03,460 --> 00:33:05,980
which is a very small percentage of developers so far.

629
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:11,600
But then, you know, what Pivotal has added is this is full-on Windows support automated the

630
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:12,520
same way you do Linux.

631
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,040
So that if you have .NET framework apps that run on Windows, fantastic.

632
00:33:16,300 --> 00:33:18,900
You have .NET Core apps that run on Linux, awesome.

633
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,200
You have BuildPack support, you have OS support.

634
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:26,340
And so this is arguably the only platform that you can put on any cloud that's fully Windows

635
00:33:26,340 --> 00:33:27,240
or Linux compatible.

636
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:28,100
That's nice.

637
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:32,240
At least it gives you some choices as you try to modernize some of your existing .NET

638
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:36,540
apps, which, as you know, Coté, I mean, most of our customers are nicely split between

639
00:33:36,540 --> 00:33:41,620
a whole host of Java app, .NET apps, and then weird commercial stuff that defies classification.

640
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:48,920
You know, my thinking is over the next year or two, we'll see a huge amount of .NET

641
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,500
applications in the cloud native space.

642
00:33:51,700 --> 00:33:56,780
I mean, definitely, definitely in most of the customers I talk to and hear about, as

643
00:33:56,780 --> 00:33:59,660
you were saying, they all, one, are really interested in that.

644
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:04,940
And it's almost like they have this sort of like green room, if you will, this waiting

645
00:34:04,940 --> 00:34:09,320
room of .NET applications that are just eager to move over once they get comfortable with

646
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:09,440
it.

647
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,940
So that'll be interesting to see how that pans out.

648
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:17,440
And hopefully it's the continuation of, you know, what we've seen at Microsoft as a company

649
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:22,980
for the past several years, which is like, to put it in my own words, their summarization

650
00:34:22,980 --> 00:34:25,360
is like, we'll run whatever you have.

651
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:31,880
As long as we're involved somewhere in the stack, we're happy for it, which is fine, right?

652
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:37,280
I mean, that's what you would want ultimately from a company like them is that they want

653
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:41,760
to fit into whatever IT stack the way that their customers want to, instead of imposing

654
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,260
a, you must use all of our stack sort of position.

655
00:34:45,460 --> 00:34:45,760
That's right.

656
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:47,400
And that's actually a nice lead into the other one.

657
00:34:47,540 --> 00:34:50,640
I, you know, at least the last of my baked in ones, we can throw a couple of my bonus

658
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:51,440
ones in if you'd like.

659
00:34:51,500 --> 00:34:56,380
But the last baked one in was sort of that story itself is, you know, Azure, Google, Amazon

660
00:34:56,380 --> 00:34:58,260
offer a ton of great services.

661
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,020
And so the myth could be, if I have that, what the heck do I need a platform for?

662
00:35:02,100 --> 00:35:03,420
Like, those are kind of platforms.

663
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:04,720
Isn't this just excessive?

664
00:35:04,980 --> 00:35:08,640
Are they just doing turtles on turtles or whatever the heck the analogy is?

665
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:14,100
You know, and I think, you know, our answer is sometimes you do want to have that sort of

666
00:35:14,100 --> 00:35:18,520
application-centric construct that is taking care of security throughout the stack, the dev

667
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,200
experience, and you want the portability, which is nice.

668
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,500
But for our customers, many of them run on public cloud.

669
00:35:25,300 --> 00:35:28,400
You know, we are a giant partner of Amazon and Microsoft and Google.

670
00:35:28,620 --> 00:35:29,720
So that's great.

671
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:34,300
And our customers see the value of laying a platform on top that is app-centric, that does

672
00:35:34,300 --> 00:35:38,060
not expose the developer to any sort of leaky abstractions where they're figuring out

673
00:35:38,060 --> 00:35:42,760
and fiddling with DNS, or they're updating server OSs, or they're patching things.

674
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:46,760
Instead, they just literally see a push, and it doesn't matter if their target is on

675
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:52,220
premises or in Google Cloud, the dev experience is the same, and we continue to add on services

676
00:35:52,220 --> 00:35:54,520
and availability, all the sort of Cloud Foundry value.

677
00:35:54,860 --> 00:35:58,740
There's a lot of value, even if you're using native first-party cloud services.

678
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,160
So there's plenty of good case studies we could talk to people about.

679
00:36:02,240 --> 00:36:05,400
But we see tons of great scenarios here where it's additive.

680
00:36:05,820 --> 00:36:06,540
It's not an or.

681
00:36:06,540 --> 00:36:07,320
Yeah, yeah.

682
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,980
And I mean, that raises the other thing I would talk about.

683
00:36:12,060 --> 00:36:17,420
So first of all, I think, yeah, it reminds me of, this must have been from last year sometime.

684
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:22,140
I remember I was, we were in, I don't know what this is called, but like the Air Force

685
00:36:22,140 --> 00:36:27,560
had brought in, it was like a public, have vendors come tell us how to, or advise us on

686
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:28,600
how to solve our problems.

687
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,440
And one of the interesting points they brought up, I mean, you know, being, being the Air

688
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:38,400
Force, they had tons of stuff, um, is that they wanted to establish a common application

689
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:44,440
development, um, and development's the wrong word, a common application platform or, or way

690
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,840
of doing things across all the various types of infrastructure, private and public or whatever

691
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:49,580
that they had.

692
00:36:49,720 --> 00:36:54,940
And, and, you know, I think obviously this opinion is self-serving, but I think something

693
00:36:54,940 --> 00:37:00,060
like Pivotal Cloud Foundry and more broadly Cloud Foundry provides like this, uh, common

694
00:37:00,060 --> 00:37:06,800
mindset of doing things in the same way that, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the duopoly, if you will,

695
00:37:06,860 --> 00:37:11,360
or, or the, what emerged in, in over the past 10 or 15 years is that most everything was

696
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:18,220
in like, I guess it's a triopoly was basically like Java, uh, .net or PHP or Lampstack.

697
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,820
And there, you know, those are just very common ways of doing application development.

698
00:37:21,820 --> 00:37:25,120
So instead of having 20 different ways of doing it, you had at least those three.

699
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:31,000
And I think one, uh, it's nice to have that common way of doing your application development

700
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:35,500
and operations across whatever type of cloud you want to run in and therefore having the

701
00:37:35,500 --> 00:37:39,540
support of, of the, uh, let's see, we got like three public clouds that we support, if

702
00:37:39,540 --> 00:37:43,260
I recall, and then, and then basically on OpenStack and VMware.

703
00:37:43,820 --> 00:37:47,140
And, uh, I think that's about it that the infrastructure that you can run on.

704
00:37:47,240 --> 00:37:50,920
So wherever you're moving this stuff, you can, you can move your, you've got the same

705
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:52,000
application model.

706
00:37:52,380 --> 00:37:56,340
Uh, I struggle to use the right phrase for that, but like, that's a nice amount of portability.

707
00:37:56,340 --> 00:38:00,960
And also, um, especially like in the case of, you know, the air force or other big customers,

708
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:07,900
it, it hopefully gives you a, uh, some long-term risk management as far as over the next five

709
00:38:07,900 --> 00:38:12,080
or 10 years, that, that programming model will be supported and evolve.

710
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:17,800
And you won't be sort of like stuck in a cul-de-sac of, I don't know, using natural or

711
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,480
ADA or, or, or, or, you know, cobalt or whatever.

712
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:25,900
So that, that's one thing of, uh, that's nice of having this separate abstraction layer rather

713
00:38:25,900 --> 00:38:28,020
than natively using, uh, the cloud things.

714
00:38:28,020 --> 00:38:33,620
And then as you brought up and admittedly, I haven't seen a lot of people doing this, but

715
00:38:33,620 --> 00:38:38,240
I think, I think it'll be an interesting, uh, option to see over the next few years is in

716
00:38:38,240 --> 00:38:43,520
theory, you can also start to mix and max all mix, mix, I guess you would max it, but

717
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:48,020
mix and match all of the, uh, all the various services that you have across the public cloud.

718
00:38:48,020 --> 00:38:51,880
So we've talked about this here and there and on the, on the podcast, but like, you know,

719
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:56,720
if, if, if you like the way that Google does all of their data analytics and big data things,

720
00:38:56,720 --> 00:39:01,500
but you want to run an Amazon or Azure, you know, you could combine those two things together

721
00:39:01,500 --> 00:39:06,300
and have a common, uh, sort of substratum for all your microservices stuff and not have

722
00:39:06,300 --> 00:39:09,660
to put up with, with learning and managing all the different ways of doing that.

723
00:39:09,740 --> 00:39:11,140
If you've got this abstraction layer.

724
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,760
Or the scenario for that works well, you know, our friend Tony from Home Depot, who we had

725
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,060
on the podcast last December talks about, look, they're using Google cloud.

726
00:39:18,060 --> 00:39:19,320
They use working on premises.

727
00:39:19,500 --> 00:39:24,280
And what that means is that you can also potentially do local development that uses a Google machine

728
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,360
learning experience, right?

729
00:39:26,380 --> 00:39:29,900
And then when you push that same app using the exact same pipeline to Google cloud, the app

730
00:39:29,900 --> 00:39:31,120
obviously works the same.

731
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:35,720
So it also gives me access to the services in every place, even if I'm developing it and

732
00:39:35,720 --> 00:39:39,620
starting on prem or moving to cloud, like nothing changes in my deployment pipeline.

733
00:39:39,860 --> 00:39:43,480
That's a really powerful thing for shops that just want to get good at software and don't

734
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,020
want to be awesome at the infrastructure pipeline stuff.

735
00:39:46,300 --> 00:39:49,440
And then finally, I mean, I kind of alluded to this earlier and we've talked all about it,

736
00:39:49,460 --> 00:39:54,360
but just to kind of round it up into a topic, I think, I think it, it, uh, it kind of gets

737
00:39:54,360 --> 00:40:01,080
to this idea of lock-in, which is a very, uh, a very common anti-pivotal, uh, message that,

738
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:02,220
that, that we encounter.

739
00:40:02,620 --> 00:40:10,280
And, you know, lock-in is like, for me, uh, having followed all of this stuff for, uh, like 15 years or so,

740
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:16,440
it's very much so a Rorschach test of like what it is the person worried about or talking about lock-in is,

741
00:40:16,500 --> 00:40:23,780
which is, it tends to say a lot more about the position that people have, uh, than sort of like the, uh, the reality of stuff,

742
00:40:23,780 --> 00:40:29,440
which, which sounds like some, uh, some vague allegations or whatever allegations, but some vague

743
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:34,340
commentary, but to make that more specific, right? Like, uh, you know, there's several layers of lock-in.

744
00:40:34,420 --> 00:40:41,680
One of them is, uh, you could call it like, uh, back, back in the, uh, in the Sunday, Simon Phipps had a good

745
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:47,980
way of rephrasing lock-in, which was the freedom to leave. And the idea was how difficult would it be

746
00:40:47,980 --> 00:40:54,560
for you to take whatever it is you care about your data or your applications and, and move them from your, your

747
00:40:54,560 --> 00:41:00,120
current stack to a new stack. And so that's one way of rating lock-in is like, can you move these things,

748
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:05,940
right? Like how, what kind of effort and risk would it take? And the interesting thing about that positioning is it

749
00:41:05,940 --> 00:41:12,280
has nothing to do with open or open source. It's more about effort to move things, right? Which kind of gets to my

750
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:17,960
second way of thinking about lock-in, which is like, you know, you should always ask someone who's

751
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:22,740
telling you that some rival platform is lock-in if that means that if you can't, you can't move their

752
00:41:22,740 --> 00:41:27,800
applications to whatever it is they're selling. And I would bet they would be more than happy to say

753
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:33,300
that you could move whatever locked in applications you have to their platform instead. Otherwise they

754
00:41:33,300 --> 00:41:37,640
probably wouldn't be there trying to sell you essentially. So, you know, that's a good way to

755
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:41,520
test out like freedom to leave essentially. Now, of course there's, there's all sorts of ways to

756
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:47,240
counter counter argument that, but it gets to the point that like a lot of lock-in discussion should

757
00:41:47,240 --> 00:41:53,340
more be about as the word we keep using portability of things and analyzing what the portability of an application is

758
00:41:53,340 --> 00:41:59,340
across any platform that you might have. And then, and then, and then, you know, the other, the other lock-in thing,

759
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:04,520
and we've kind of highlighted in the, the pivotal cloud foundry world, how, whether you're using an open source

760
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:10,320
thing like the spring framework, or you, you have, you know, you can have a very heavy touch series of build packs,

761
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:16,420
or you can have a light touch series of build packs, but the portability of that stuff is as portable as you want it to be.

762
00:42:16,420 --> 00:42:22,460
Right. Like you can directly rely on and integrate to public cloud services, like we've mentioned, or you could

763
00:42:22,460 --> 00:42:29,740
directly integrate with proprietary sort of pivotal cloud foundry things or not. There's all sorts of options that you have.

764
00:42:30,100 --> 00:42:38,180
And that, you know, to kind of, uh, uh, uh, a way of when one of the better ways of thinking about securities is essentially

765
00:42:38,180 --> 00:42:45,320
like, you've got to do a risk benefit analysis of should I lock into these proprietary things, which to be clear is not the

766
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:51,720
only option you have in pivotal cloud foundry land or, or public cloud land. Right. Or should I take the time if it does take

767
00:42:51,720 --> 00:42:58,420
time to be more portable in the way that I'm doing things? And, you know, it all depends on what your needs are and, and, and how

768
00:42:58,420 --> 00:43:04,280
things are there. But, you know, the upshot of, of the conversation I tried to have with people. And I remember back in the

769
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:11,960
red monk days, we would discuss this a lot too, is like, you're always choosing a type of lock-in and just be aware of more of

770
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:17,900
that idea of freedom to leave and portability that you have. And think about like, what kind of, I don't know what the

771
00:43:17,900 --> 00:43:23,620
opposite of lock-in is, but think about what it is you need versus, uh, what sort of, uh, what sort of

772
00:43:23,620 --> 00:43:27,700
commitments, if you will, you're willing to make, whether it's an open source thing or a proprietary

773
00:43:27,700 --> 00:43:33,160
thing or, or anything like that, because whatever platform you choose, there's a, you're, you're going

774
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:38,180
to limit your portability to some extent. And it's just good to, uh, analyze what your needs are and all

775
00:43:38,180 --> 00:43:43,480
of that going in. Yeah, it's well said. I mean, everything from owning a house to choosing Red Hat Linux,

776
00:43:43,620 --> 00:43:47,500
I mean, they're all lock-in at some level, right? I mean, everything has, everything has a switching cost.

777
00:43:47,500 --> 00:43:52,140
And in some cases you're willing to take it. There's a reason that, you know, AWS Lambda is

778
00:43:52,140 --> 00:43:55,920
still taking off, even though you can't move any of that stuff anywhere else, because it solves a

779
00:43:55,920 --> 00:44:01,240
real problem. And people who are using it are going to accept any risk they take, because for now it

780
00:44:01,240 --> 00:44:05,780
can add differentiating value and it is worth whatever pain they think they will face later. When we were

781
00:44:05,780 --> 00:44:10,920
hanging out with, uh, one of the Gartner analysts a couple of weeks ago, and he mentioned, we were talking

782
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:17,100
about lock-in and he said, look, lock-in bites people when there seems to be either steady or declining

783
00:44:17,100 --> 00:44:22,200
value, but increasing cost. And so if that Oracle database continues to cost me more every year,

784
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:26,040
hypothetically, and yet I feel like I'm actually getting less out of it, that's when lock-in starts

785
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:32,000
to bite me. If something is awesome, I rarely am worried about what my lock-in cost is, right? I mean,

786
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:36,660
you don't care that you're locked into Austin if you love living there. If it was a complete train

787
00:44:36,660 --> 00:44:40,860
wreck of a city, you would worry about wanting to leave and think, my gosh, now I own a house. How do I get

788
00:44:40,860 --> 00:44:45,780
out of this? So nobody cares about lock-in when that thing is adding tons of value. So pick things

789
00:44:45,780 --> 00:44:51,700
that you think will add value over time that should appreciate in value over time. And hopefully PCF is

790
00:44:51,700 --> 00:44:56,300
one of those things that gets better every month and your costs only grow as your business does. Those

791
00:44:56,300 --> 00:45:00,920
are hopefully good criteria to use to pick these platforms. Yeah. Well, why don't you, uh, why don't

792
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:05,820
you pick one of your bonus items and then, uh, and then we'll close out with other two, uh, self-serving

793
00:45:05,820 --> 00:45:10,280
news things and then, uh, and then we'll be done. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'd list a couple other

794
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:14,320
things for Coté's fun and amusement, whether it's pivotal web services, not being production grade,

795
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:18,640
like people run production apps there, enjoy it, love it. The only other one was operating systems.

796
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:24,540
Do they matter? You know, do I care what OS runs Azure? Do I care what OS runs Amazon? Do I care what

797
00:45:24,540 --> 00:45:31,200
OS runs PCF? No. Like we use Ubuntu and we have this crazy hardening process to make sure this is a

798
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:36,940
rock solid secure OS under your platform, but it really doesn't matter if you love and have certified

799
00:45:36,940 --> 00:45:42,620
again, Red Hat Linux or using any other Linux distribution, like it's OS it's embedded. It's

800
00:45:42,620 --> 00:45:47,080
embedded in the platform. It's updated as part of the platform. Technically the OS doesn't matter when

801
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:52,520
you have a properly converged platform that takes care of underlying automation for you. So sometimes

802
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:57,140
we can get overly excited about the things that run under platforms, but at that point, you know,

803
00:45:57,140 --> 00:46:01,860
it's voyeurism only. It doesn't really matter. And speaking again of, of my red monk days, I remember

804
00:46:01,860 --> 00:46:06,600
back then there was this sense that, uh, I think, I think I, and other people that are used to phrase

805
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:12,100
it this way is the operating system is, is becoming a piece of middleware, which is to say when the

806
00:46:12,100 --> 00:46:17,440
operating system matters, it's becoming a piece of middleware otherwise. And, and, you know, I was just

807
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:23,120
looking at some surveys this morning, but I think pretty consistently when you look at, uh, operating system

808
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:29,940
use by use instead of revenue, uh, it's typically some Ubuntu variation, uh, that you see out there and maybe

809
00:46:29,940 --> 00:46:35,840
core OS shows up a lot, but, but like, it's just Ubuntu rules everything for, for whatever reason. I think it's

810
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:42,760
because, uh, historically and probably currently they're the most developer friendly, uh, operating system. And

811
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:49,580
also, I guess, per canonical strategy, the most sort of liberal, if you will. So those people who developers who build

812
00:46:49,580 --> 00:46:53,240
platforms tend to gravitate towards Ubuntu and, and, and make that choice.

813
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:58,060
And it's not saying it doesn't matter, right? It's saying it matters to fewer people. And so I think fewer

814
00:46:58,060 --> 00:47:02,820
people should care about the underlying tech. We say the same thing with container orchestration or OS or

815
00:47:02,820 --> 00:47:07,960
these things, they're super valuable tech. It's just a smaller population than currently should probably

816
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:08,800
be caring about it.

817
00:47:08,980 --> 00:47:15,520
Yeah, exactly. I think, uh, I think that's the case. Well, as promised the, the other two items that, uh,

818
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:20,620
that I wanted to go over is we have, uh, before we wrap up, we have cloud foundry summit coming up,

819
00:47:20,620 --> 00:47:26,360
uh, June 13th to 15th. I guess that's officially next month now, right? Since it's, uh, May 1st.

820
00:47:26,500 --> 00:47:31,080
That's right. And, uh, and I I'll be doing a few interviews, which I, which I'll publish here

821
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:37,360
with, uh, let's see, Greg from Comcast and I think Opal from, uh, from all state and, uh, just kind

822
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:41,660
of going over there, both speaking there. And so we'll, uh, we'll, I'm just going to, I don't know,

823
00:47:41,660 --> 00:47:45,780
talk with what's going on at Comcast and all state and what they'll be talking about, but it's a good,

824
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:52,680
it's a good conference, uh, both from a technical side and a, uh, you know, business side. Cause as,

825
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:57,060
as, uh, as we'll talk about with those two and, and, uh, and as you'll see from others, a lot of

826
00:47:57,060 --> 00:48:03,100
the discussion at CF summit is about how organizations are using, uh, cloud foundry and, and being the

827
00:48:03,100 --> 00:48:07,400
cloud foundry summit, it's not just about pivotal stuff. It's about all the cloud foundry variants out

828
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:12,160
there, how they're using it to get to that idea of a, of a programmable business. And it's one of

829
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:16,800
the good momentum, uh, sort of moments you get to, I, I, in preparation for talking with Greg, I,

830
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:22,320
I pulled together some highlights of all the, uh, most all of the Comcast public talks, uh, that I

831
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:26,720
could see. And I'll put a link to that, but you can get a sense of the kind of, um, I don't know,

832
00:48:26,780 --> 00:48:32,320
momentum and lessons learned, um, that goes over there. There's, I was reminded of a particularly good

833
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:38,000
talk that, uh, not the singer, but, uh, that James Taylor of Comcast went over at SpringOne platform,

834
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:43,720
kind of talking about, um, what I would call the business it alignment philosophy and thinking.

835
00:48:43,720 --> 00:48:49,480
And he has, he has a, a pretty good rant and a structured talk about that with some good examples

836
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:54,080
from, from, uh, Comcast, but anyways, uh, and there's also a bunch of technical stuff. If,

837
00:48:54,180 --> 00:48:58,200
if you want to go over that, you can tell that I focus on the other thing more. Uh, but if you're

838
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:05,200
interested in going that you can use the code CFSV17COTE, which is a lot to remember, but it's

839
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:12,360
basically Cloud Foundry, Silicon Valley, 17 Coté, right? CFSV17COTE. And, uh, I'll, I'll put,

840
00:49:12,420 --> 00:49:16,400
I'll put something, a link to that in the chapter notes. If you're, if you're looking at the chapters

841
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:20,380
in the podcast and the show notes, but you can get 20% off when you register with that. And then

842
00:49:20,380 --> 00:49:26,240
finally, as always, we have a tremendous amount of, uh, books available, the, the O'Reilly books and

843
00:49:26,240 --> 00:49:31,720
some early editions of like cloud native Java and, uh, another cloud native programming book that

844
00:49:31,720 --> 00:49:36,180
Cornelia is working on. And, and the one that, uh, that we just published, uh, the booklet that I

845
00:49:36,180 --> 00:49:42,000
worked on, uh, or a pivotal site. If you go to pivotal.io slash eBooks, you can get all of those.

846
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:46,680
I think you only have to lead in yourself once. And then we have magic digital marketing software

847
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:51,640
that remembers who you were. And then you can just go, uh, download all of those and, uh, check.

848
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:58,740
That's right. And it turns off your sprinklers. Hopefully. And, and so, uh, yeah, hopefully we'll

849
00:49:58,740 --> 00:50:03,020
see you at some of those events, uh, that we went over. And, uh, if you're, if you're at DevOps stays

850
00:50:03,020 --> 00:50:07,860
Austin later this week, or Ozcon, you come by the pivotal booth and we've got all sorts of gigas to,

851
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:12,080
uh, to give out and things like that. And as always, uh, this has been Pivotal Conversations.

852
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:17,460
You can get the latest episode, uh, for this by subscribing to it, which you can find in iTunes

853
00:50:17,460 --> 00:50:23,240
or overcast. And I think in stitcher or wherever you get your podcast. And if you're more of a

854
00:50:23,240 --> 00:50:28,920
traditionalist, like I am, and you like to get the RSS feed, you can go to soundcloud.com slash

855
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:33,800
Pivotal Conversations, all one word, and you can find the RSS feed there. And you can find all of

856
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:38,580
our past episodes and listen to it in the web. If you're, if you're one of those folks. Uh, and then

857
00:50:38,580 --> 00:50:44,120
finally, uh, we trail sort of like a week or so after we post these, but if you go to pivotal.io

858
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:48,780
slash podcast, you can see all the show notes that we have. And as mentioned, I think last

859
00:50:48,780 --> 00:50:53,680
time and a little bit here, I'll, I also go in and add a chapter marks into the podcast.

860
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:58,640
So as there's things we talk about in the podcast, if you, I think only overcast supports this

861
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:03,040
now, but you can open up, uh, the, the little listener there and you can see links to things

862
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:07,620
we're talking about, uh, for that as well. And with that, uh, thanks for listening and

863
00:51:07,620 --> 00:51:09,540
we'll see everyone next time. Bye bye.