no no no it's all on my side i am the producer i'm the producer josh so it's all my responsibility i hope i hope you found that all the brown m&ms were reduced from your bowl as as as your requirement yeah yeah trying to make everyone happy all right where did i see that i saw an episode i saw a tv show where that was like uh some character was established as being who who he or she says he was because those uh m&ms were well that that's that's a uh that's folklore which i think is real i have to look up on snopes around like van halen's writer that the way what they would do this is this is a uh a hack if you will is in order to make sure that people at the concert venues had the attention to detail that was required for them to be happy and assumably profitable they would have they would have this one little thing in the contract that was an absurd detail that they should have a bowl of m&ms with all the brown m&ms removed and that way when they showed up it was this quick heuristic where like well if they didn't read that part and actually do it then they've probably screwed up a bunch of other stuff so we need to go check on it so that's a little uh that's a little like uh preparatory sink bomb that you put in there i see like a a litmus test or something a veritable canary deploy in some 80s way i dig it okay well that was there's two references then uh both of which escaped me so nominally you you and i uh so i i thought to have you on because i got a tweet from someone the other day that they were listening to uh the maybe maybe not the last podcast because the last one we did was actually a little a little uh fun little video thing on my old my Coté show podcast which i like doing that was fun you know why it's fun it's because it's because we got to hang out which i you and i are in the same team people don't realize that but geez if i get to see you once or twice a year i'm lucky you know well we speaking of we're going to see each other next week in atlanta because because you're going to be you're going to be at devops days uh atlanta as as the listener might be asking and we were talking about this and
2:00i am and i was thinking like this would be a good topic for us to go over is is the relationship between uh microservices and devops because i think you know i don't want to speak on your behalf but i but i wouldn't say but i would love you i would love it if you if you would in fact i i've asked you if you wanted to join me in the talk and you seem to be reluctant to say yes but it'd be great if you were to give the talk to just prepare it i mean really just take the take over the whole thing just be a team player do it all for me you know i mean that'd be uh you know i'm sympathetic to that because that is basically uh also my proactive uh question to everyone that i meet in my life which is yeah if you would if you would like to do things i am supposed to do in place of me doing it go ahead that's fine and how's that stroked you so far because i'm starting to think that might be the uh well ingredient i find i find that in most walks of life well there's three instances where it doesn't work but in other walks of life in general it does oh good and in in in uh would it be uh uh ascending order of importance uh okay which is to say the last one is the most critical the first one is when you're with a group of people and you're trying to figure out where to go eat for lunch dinner occasionally breakfast and everyone knows that the i don't care where we go i'm out like that's that's the most annoying place so you do actually need to like be involved in the situation oh i don't know about that i'm just saying i don't care i know and i know there are people in the group who do care so i purposely say i punt whatever you want you know and and they would they would exert control anyway yeah you know you know i am no i am no camu or sartre but sometimes you just have to pretend that you care and just act in that charade right okay just just to get along with the other people uh so the giving the giving thing in that case is to take away the choice yeah yeah yeah or just or just get involved now the second situation is is whoever it is that is paying you occasionally they would like you to actually do the thing that uh that you're supposed
4:03to do instead of pawning it off on someone else now that's not always the case but i keep checking my spam mail to see if i get memos or anything from those folks i don't even know if they're if they know i work for them i i don't know man and then and then i think i think the third tier is uh what you know whoever you have some significant relationship with whether it's where it's a really good friend some significant other or whatever they tend to like you to uh actually do things uh around and in that regard i'm completely 100% agreed yeah yeah so so other than that i think i think yours and i's strategy about uh uh how how one one might pursue life happiness which is to delegate uh work to other people or professional hunting yeah i think it's solid i think that's a good approach that's a that's that's a hell of a hell of a way to run a railroad my friend so nominally yeah you've got you've got the the the microservices and the devops and i came up with this because i was reading the abstract for the uh for the talk that you have next week and that seemed to be the topic that it was on it was about it's about you know i spend well here's the problem i'm a little constrained we're both a little constrained actually isn't the talk supposed to be like 40 minutes or something like that it's 30 minutes 30 minutes and i i don't know if you've ever had the dubious pleasure of seeing what am i uh what am i talked but they go on forever and and and though i do go fast uh you know i don't know if i'm going to be able to fit anything um i don't have anything i don't have anything much to say of wisdom uh uh anyway but 30 minutes my goodness if ever there was going to be if i'm going to say something worth listening to i'm not sure i can fit it in 30 minutes uh so so my constraint is how can i how can i bring the spring and do all the java stuff that i do in 30 minutes and and and and i would and that's normally for a developer audience so that's you know really that's not even the devops that's just it's just dev i care about i couch what i talk about in terms of the end result you know the outcome which is what i care about the most getting
6:04software into production right but but how do we how do we given the given that this is not dev days atlanta this is devops days um you know how do we really drive home that extra point and then how do we do so uh in uh in 30 minutes and by and so you may have noticed that i said we here i'm not i'm not schizophrenic well listen listen let me let me i i think i think what this episode short episode will be will be a little bit of consulting first of all first of all i want to say that you have just highlighted a key thing to the uh to the life choice of delegating and that is you're concerned in in this this delegation based lifestyle with outcomes you want outcomes you want you're you're concerned about what happens not necessarily how it happens now obviously you want it to be done in an ethical moral and legal method right these these are base assumptions you you part of having a positive outcome is ensuring that how that positive outcome was achieved does not in any way make it a negative outcome right like so that's that's one of the requirements is that uh the the outcome must be uh sustained by the purity of how it was achieved anyhow okay i'm saying if you had a good outcome right yeah and then it turns out that you basically crimed your way to that outcome that outcome would be less uh and perhaps even ruined uh is that so yeah i think so for example consider consider numerous instances of when journalists made things up right let's say you you're a journalist and you write a story and you fabricate 20 of the facts which were not facts in your story right so 20 of those are wrong but then how about the other 80 those are perfectly real but the end result is your entire story is garbage right yeah but that's okay that's the empirical sort of like you know common i don't know but what what is a crime in some countries is not a crime
8:05in others i'm just saying sure sure i mean i mean what you want to have is uh you got to have your bounded context for any any situation in life that you're trying to apply principles to so i'll give you that i'll give you that anyways you know maybe avoiding taxes in certain geographies is uh legal and ethical versus other geographies and so when you cross these boundaries the outcome being like good financial reports the way that you arrange your finances and your tax schemes and everything is all is all uh i don't know copacetic as my dad used to say depending on the geography you're in so there you go well we got that one cinched up so you know what you're going to be talking about next week now not actually i'm more confused than when i started wait so so you are you in uh i'll i'll help you josh okay let's do this so devops i you know i got that great quote in the beginning of the uh in the abstract right that was i thought that was nice i thought that was me kind of like uh you know i speak some of the language i walk among them i care about the same things i just want to really polish this off so that it's more i'm going to look up this abstract because unlike yourself i don't have uh i don't have it memorized i had the w edwards demings uh quote you know survival is not mandatory nobody says you need to to survive now see this is this is this is uh this is a good instance of uh synergies i think are coincidence is the the subtitle of the talk that i give nowadays is beyond survival is not mandatory oh my these might fold into each other very well josh wait am i am i preceding you i can i can you are preceding you're you're the first day and then i'm the the the opening talk for the second day so so here's here's my here's what i want to hear from you just thinking out loud about this is let let me let me just let me just soliloquy here a little bit uh if if i don't know what pentameter that would be in uh well first of all you've got itell reference in there so that's exciting i'm actually reading your abstract now but i would assume that the connection between microservices and devops is the following so first of all you've got devops and in my in my way of
10:09summarizing it the outcome of devops is that you can do something like release your software weekly if not daily and thus get this fast feedback loop that allows you to see if your idea of what the software should be doing is accurate and is solving your users problems and making them more productive now the ops part of that is that it would also be nice just as if it's nice for your outcome to not have been illegal it's also nice if your software actually stays up and running and can be used by people instead of crashes all the time or as we used to say fail whales so that's a lot of in my mind what the outcome of devops is right is supporting that kind of thing now how you achieve that uh is done through a whole bunch of like a a a tricky bag of interesting practices like having a unified team of people so that they take care of the thing all throughout and developers write their code to be more resilient and operations people know enough about writing code so that they write platforms and stuff so that it's resilient and you know they're working with each other and they all they all have skin in the game as as as our as that talib guy would say uh and and so another thing you have is you've got a a build pipeline so you can run tests and all this stuff and you automate as much as possible out of everything so you actually have the speed and then i would suspect i've never really seen this proven out but i would suspect that architecturally one of the better things you can do with how you arrange your code base and also mediate how some components talk with each other is to follow a microservices approach now without ditching into like how is microservices not just soa the idea of a microservices approach is that if we have a bunch of different services like i don't know what are some services josh oh there are some i don't know customer service order service fulfillment service product service you know yeah sure anything anything matching your bounded context in your there you go so you might you might have a a login service a service that tells you uh where a package is located in a warehouse or you might have a service that
12:11if you give it two images graphs them together so you can put a hat on a cat whatever uh and so the idea of my one of the organizational ideas of microservices by the way thanks for being here to listen to me just talk for this podcast hey it's it's what i've been looking forward to all week one of the one of the organizational ideas of microservices is that once you decompose your software and all these services uh you want them to be able to release on their own cadence and to some extent even innovate and evolve on their own cadence yeah but of course once you do that if you've got too strong of dependencies between all of them things start to break so if if i'm used to sending a jpeg two jpegs to the hat on cat service and then all of a sudden they don't support jpegs or they've had to support the jpeg 2000 or whatever uh and then they support pngs or pings instead and they don't tell me about this i keep sending jpegs to them and it breaks and then i lose millions of dollars a minute because i can't put a hat on a cat right and and so the idea of microservices is how might we redo things so that we can be releasing these services and updating them uh on their own cadence but also have the resiliency of one they they stay up and running but two as as different components start using them uh they they more gracefully fail or or you know they don't sort of just like um as soil the bed as people might say in a more saucy phrasing that's my very high level thing of how these two things might connect together what that actually means on a day-to-day basis as you know josh i am the person on our team who does slides so that's that's way beyond the slides not even in the notes section of powerpoint how this all actually works together well so in my in my in my talks uh i talk i focus on that one little bit which is uh you optimize for human or optimize your human organizations by uh uh factoring out your software into smaller chunks of work batches of work uh and then you optimize for each team to be able to release uh independently by moving these these separate sort of bound contexts into
14:16microservices uh and uh once you've done that you get in theory you get the ability to deliver software independently but the whole focus of my talk is uh going into practice which is that when you've got all these things communicating with each other over the network across network partitions uh you've got instability you've got things that could break and you need to build the architect accordingly and so that's really what i talk about my you know in this whole thing is how to build applications how to build java software using spring these days uh that that does the right thing in the face of service strategies and topology changes that benefits from the elasticity of a cloud environment you know that takes advantage of all these sort of uh characteristics so that you don't just invite more pain into your world now that said um all that other stuff you mentioned is good too so really i just i honed in on that one little thing which is that you which is what you mentioned now now you know you know knowing your talks and and unfortunately as we were talking about earlier your uh your your zoom function is broken so people will miss out on that but you know what i'm thinking what i'm thinking is good for a situation like this like a 30 minute talk to general audience is the wrong term but to a a non-developer audience right because normally what you would do is you would just roll in and be like i'm gonna demo stuff to you for the next uh 50 minutes right no better i'm gonna write software exactly exactly right i'm gonna dim it i'm gonna do the actual software that's the that's the magic trick of josh long right which which is great uh but maybe in this instance instead so you kind of go over that overview right and then you're basically like what are the principles that something like the spring framework various parts of spring framework embodies and follows such that it can deliver on this right and maybe there's like one or two slides that actually has some very simple code and some little boxes with lines going around but it's essentially like so in thinking through this what did we do with spring and then and then also how it integrates with with pivotal cloud foundry so that you can you can um you can operate in this way and i don't again i don't really know what
16:17those answers are but having talked with you and other people about it in the past right like one of the things is uh and this is i don't know why i'm pulling this but like monitoring is built into things other stuff is that like you know we've got all the uh all those bulkheads and circuit breakers and stuff and and the way that which you deploy things gives you these uh you know little flags to turn things on and off and just like basically and there's a registry and i don't know just all the the natural way that you would want to do a microservices approach that gives you the the kind of like operational resiliency like these are the principles we found that allows that that uh that we embody to do it beats me again i don't even know what those are but it would be interesting to uh to cogitate on that a little bit i think i can do that but i think it's gonna be code and by the way you know the uh you know why i got invited to devops days no uh so the uh one of the organizers was in the audience at uh at um dev nexus in one of my talks ah yeah yeah and that was a thoroughly code-centric sort of sort of talk he came up to me afterwards and um said it wasn't the worst talk he's ever seen and you know yep here we are that's that's that's the review we can all hope for that wasn't the worst talk i've ever seen it didn't hurt as much as i thought it would that was a five-star review we call it we call that the worst plus one review yeah that's that's pretty good but yeah i i mean and then if you can figure out how to like show that in code then that's uh that's that's so much the better that's the that's what i'm thinking like if this guy was okay with my code i figure i figure uh i could probably try but but but the thing is i'm still curious about the 30 minute thing so either either i i cut down on i mean i i hate to say this you know i hesitate to say this but maybe i get rid of all you know i spend a good 20 minutes talking about myself sure sure in these talks and you know that's maybe maybe that uh well listen here's here's here's what i have found now yeah you sort of just answered your own question there don't talk about
18:20yourself for 20 minutes so there's that now now now the second thing i was just thinking here's here's it's always reducing things down to a single concept as i'm as i'm sure you know right like i think the style that both you and me have in our different ways is instead of following that principle the the and i'll speak on your behalf but the trick we like to do to impress ourselves is to cram as much as possible into a speaking slot right like i feel like i feel like i've spent my my professional rhetorical life honing the ability to jam as much as to essentially do the equivalent of putting seven pounds of content into a five pound bag that's sort of like what what i enjoy doing so yeah which you know there's actually a lot more extra space in there than you would think so maybe one thing but then to reduce it down maybe the intersection between these two is thinking about the the john willis and the extended john willis definition of devops which is uh cams some people would say calms right which is culture automation uh let's see if i can remember this what's the m stand for monitoring and uh s is uh it's probably security or something and then if if you if you add uh if you add i'm gonna look this up if you add in an l it's it's lean uh basically which which is fine and then you have calms uh you know whatever uh i don't mean whatever in a dismissive way it's just sometimes uh oh sorry the s is for sharing oh yeah which is a good sharing insight so okay so so that might be a good intersection right and it's basically like i can demonstrate this in code really briefly but how now how a microservices approach delivers on a lot of these and i would even reduce it down to another thing is that ultimately a lot of what devops is aiming for is resiliency on all levels right not not only resiliency on your your stuff running in production right your stuff's gonna go down but what's important is that it recovers quickly and then it it uh fails gracefully right not that it just um soils the bed no and that's important by the way for my code uh because my my code in particular
20:26failure fails a lot i mean just a staggering amount so anything i can do to protect myself against those intellectual failures i yeah and and then you also think you think about the other stuff right so culturally we talked about the idea of uh and this is the microservices thing that the the cheap cheap shot which is accurate is like conway's law and then you're done with that right like that's like microservices is basically like how do we how do we judo our way through positive use of of conway's law uh and then and then the automation part is equally easy it's right which which is the the main sort of point that that you and i and other people make is like here's a bunch of concepts i know what you're thinking is like i'm gonna i'm gonna open up my intellij or my sublime edit or whatever it is the kids are what are the what are the kids use the get get editor adam yeah that's pretty legit and i'm just gonna start code i'm gonna start coding from scratch and the idea is like not only should you automate stuff in production but you should probably just like you shouldn't write a string tokenizer it's probably a good idea not to write a new framework unless you're doing javascript in which case the answer is to always start writing a framework immediately but please don't and actually that that wow we have uh right now you know as you know on the spring team we've got this uh uh this reactive initiative we're trying to to make to make work and boy oh boy is that a you know the things that it touches and every every uh sort of aspect of the ecosystem every aspect of the stack oh wow i just can't imagine what somebody's you know the road that somebody has to walk to to be able to build or build all that stuff themselves you know yeah that exactly and then so then going to the next thing you've got measurement we alluded to that earlier right so servability yeah yeah a key part of any microservices implementation is not only throwing off a bunch of metrics and information right otherwise you can't like manage it and do do what's the netflix called hysterical or hysterics or whatever yeah so you need all this information to know how to manage it and to like trip your circuit
22:28breakers and all this other stuff right but also i think i think there's a key insight that you learn from uh like reading the google sre book you know andrew and i andrew schafer and i talked about this a few episodes ago is it'd be really nice if it was easy to instrument your own applications right and if you can release daily you can start putting in new measurements and instrumentations into your application so you have more metrics and that's something that microservices would support right we support we talk about that with the spring boot actuator all the time yes actuator point and and then uh and then finally i mean lean again i think i think uh i think lean comes you could explain that but we don't have a lot of time so i'm going to skip over that so then so then you go to sharing and that's the whole point of microservices right is like and turn it into knowledge people never really make reference to this but like long ago we had this idea of mashups and they were going to be wonderful and save the world and all of that stuff but just like just like those uh those bandana face festooned people in the late 2000s the wt or 1990s the wto protesters the idea of mashups seems to have gone away but the notion is that like if we have all these little services we can compose them together and mash them together into new things and thus we can share in a more effective way but it's not just sharing in kind of an uncontrolled way you have a very structured way of sharing that uh adds resiliency and protects people pretty well distributed lego blocks yeah there you go standardization is sharing i'm a fan and and uh okay all that sounds very good so josh yes sir 30 minutes now now the unspoken rule is that you always go over five minutes i always do they don't need their time to get to the next hallway it's next room it's just down the room down the hallway yeah yeah but but what do you what do we got going on here how's how's your feel for the content well i i mean i'm kind of back to where i i was gonna touch on a lot of that stuff anyway but what i'm really one of what i'm struggling with here friend of friends is how do i get you uh involved you know i feel like i feel like it's gonna be okay i feel like worst case it won't be the worst talk that these people have ever seen uh statistically but it may not be the best certainly
24:32not the best i very likely not the best um yeah to extend our metaphor you know basically in our in our business any talk you want to give should fall into the range of worst plus one and best minus one that's pretty much where you want to be right okay with that yeah you don't want to this is another learning from the google sre book is you don't want to over deliver for too long because then people suspect that's how you normally operate and then when you revert back to the mean just problems right so you never really want to do your best unless you really really have to and it's understood that this is an out of the ordinary situation it's not sustainable otherwise um did you like that book uh yeah i i like that with the following footnotes one i haven't finished it yet and and two uh i feel free skipping over a lot of things like i don't really need to know the intricacies of distributed storage i understand that it's hard and um i'm i'm happy as we talked about earlier i'm happy to delegate uh my success or creating my success to other people that's perfect because why should we be involved no uh yes i i read that book i like the book but i was a lot of it felt a little um it's sort of like they hadn't talked to anybody outside of google you know sure sure yeah i i think i think that's fine and and it's it's it's um you know it's sort of like peering into another culture that you vaguely know about which which which is fine that's all it purports to be right as as they say works as designed yeah so now now what's more of a curiosity is is is how o'reilly came saw fit to publish it but i would suspect for two reasons one it probably is commercially viable right certainly everyone wants to read that kind of thing and two like uh i think it's a big enough deal that you would want to document it yeah and i'm also number three if i may speak for you uh they'll they'll publish anything at ariley my book is almost done my book cloud native java also at ariley uh that's what i'm as i as i'm talking to you right now i'm staring at in adam actually
26:34the aforementioned adam editor this is what i'm staring at right now my friend what do you uh what what do you write that in some sort of markdown latex are you a latex person oh yeah you like that ascii doc or whatever doctor doctor there's a doctor of ascii doc uh-huh it's called ascii doctor i know it it gets me i think i think uh i think ascii doctor and the condiment king are two of the lesser-known super villains in the dc universe oh that'd be so bad well we we should have a maybe a brief well maybe we'll try to do some live recordings maybe even a brief follow-up where we we see what josh actually talked about but i think i feel like i don't know about you josh but i i enjoyed listening to myself i enjoyed listening to yourself as well buddy and i think i think i think we got some good input from you about uh about about how how you think about these two things uh collide together some marginalia yeah and i and i also think that you know having me as a guest on your show and i delegated to you to uh to talk it embodies a lifestyle i think we i think you have trained me very well now uh so my last question before we wrap up josh so last we met uh this is last week we were in paris and i was just strolling in to the uh the le meridian you know you speak french right yeah yeah it's well yeah now but my question was yeah so i i thought the lounge at the the the le meridian etol or whatever that was a very nice starwood lounge now i agree yeah domestically you go to the sheratons they don't even have a lot of lounges here in the us which is frustrating now i also stayed at a sheraton at the paris airport the uh charles de gaulle their lounge though small was magnifique really right like like it had a nice selection of wine it had some warm foods a cheese selection they were really they were doing a good job there now anyhow known to self you travel quite a lot what would you say the best starwood lounge is what's the one that like you're like oh i'm going so and so
28:35lucky me i'm looking forward to strolling into the lounge and getting something i don't know okay let me think about that one but i can tell you the best airport lounge i've ever been in that's good too hands down are you a starwood uh sorry are you are you a star lines uh no no i'm i'm just on the one world oh oh well that's awkward well okay so i there's a believe it or not the airline the star lines uh turkish airline in in the in istanbul was it is so far beyond any other lounge i've ever seen uh i feel you go in and by the way the airport is okay but you go into this lounge and and it's just it's multiple levels there's whole floors dedicated to like you know you get massages and there's showers and spas and whatever there's there's i there's imax people are just there's banks and banks full of imax where people can like log in check their email do whatever there's you know every kind of food you can imagine drinks teas coffees i mean just the most it's yeah it's it's it sounds it sounds like the uh japan airlines lounge in tokyo in narita there oh which i've only been to one or two times which is also nice i would that's a good tip i'll i'll uh yeah i'll have to look that up well thanks for being on josh hey my pleasure are we done did that happen already sure i'm i'm wrapping up here i see are you ready are you ready for the wrap-up speech yeah yeah go hit it well first first of all first of all if people want to uh catch up with you on the internet like what's your what's your twitter handle i'm at starbucks man s-t-r-b-u-x-m-a-n and uh they'll uh they'll probably regret it but i'd love to love to and you usually write like a uh like a weekly what's happened in the spring world blog over like what spring.io like yeah spring.io yeah and and there is a one to two percent chance that wherever you live josh might be at a conference in in uh your geography today that's tomorrow so that's so eventually eventually you will uh you'll come across him so with that thanks for listening this has been another episode of Pivotal Conversations
30:40if you want to get new episodes as quickly as possible what you should do is subscribe to the podcast feed in your itunes your overcast whatever a stitcher is maybe you want to write your own your own script to download these files from the rss the mp3s whatever it is just subscribe to it you can go to soundcloud.com slash Pivotal Conversations all one word and you can find the rss feed there usually if you search in the directories of these various things you can find it it's also nice if you leave us a review or a star rating and it's even better the uh what's the french word for just like the ultimate thing the mayor i mean the best that's where you go there you go they may or as it were that sounds like spanish but if you just write something in twitter and tell your friends about it and help us spread the word word of mouth as seth godin used to teach us is the most effective marketing there is it's always a little complicated his advice for marketers yeah because because his advice was basically the equivalent of become independently wealthy at a young age which was the following if you have a great product marketing is not a problem so you know there's a searing insight for you uh so also if you want to read the full show notes which uh put a link to some to josh and maybe the presentation and things like that uh and and to the columns and columns uh if you go to pivotal.io slash podcast you can find the show notes there and with that we'll see everyone next time bye bye thanks again