1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,900 Now, you seem like the kind of person that if you woke up on the wrong side of the bed, 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:08,520 you would have a couple of remediation programs that you would run. 3 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:09,680 So let me ask you that. 4 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,420 When you wake up and you're like, I'm not feeling it today. 5 00:00:13,580 --> 00:00:15,500 Like, how do you pump yourself up? 6 00:00:15,540 --> 00:00:16,040 What do you do? 7 00:00:16,260 --> 00:00:19,540 Man, if you mean pump me up myself up for work, like I just have a routine. 8 00:00:19,740 --> 00:00:20,580 So I start my morning. 9 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:22,460 Or I just mean like life. 10 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:23,500 Just life. 11 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:28,320 You just like, you know, you feel like you want to pull a Garfield and get back in the cat box, right? 12 00:00:28,460 --> 00:00:28,740 Yeah. 13 00:00:28,740 --> 00:00:32,140 But you're like, you want to be more like an Odie, maybe. 14 00:00:33,900 --> 00:00:34,340 Yeah. 15 00:00:34,460 --> 00:00:36,500 Well, usually every morning it starts with a dog walk. 16 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:41,240 So I get to clear my head a bit as I watch my dogs carefree sprinkle the yard. 17 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:44,520 A little afternoon spray. 18 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:52,300 Well, you know, that's a good metaphor for just like getting on with improving yourself that I find myself. 19 00:00:52,300 --> 00:00:54,220 I was even writing this in some document. 20 00:00:56,140 --> 00:00:58,740 And I guess we'll talk about this in the second half. 21 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:05,560 But as I often tell my seven-year-old son, you know, he's doing this project, a living museum, which is popular with the kids nowadays. 22 00:01:05,780 --> 00:01:07,460 I don't know if you have that up in Donut Land there. 23 00:01:07,700 --> 00:01:16,580 But like, you know, he pretends to be a person and you go up and he like, I guess he's supposed to, he's too young to be able to jolt like an old animatronic robot. 24 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:21,920 But if you imagine a kid doing that, he's supposed to, he's supposed to talk about John Glenn. 25 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:24,600 So we had to look up some facts and do things. 26 00:01:24,660 --> 00:01:26,800 And, you know, we're working on that this weekend. 27 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:31,860 And he struggles to not just play Minecraft all the time, which is understandable. 28 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:36,260 There's, you gotta, you gotta get the, get the, get the gold and the iron. 29 00:01:36,500 --> 00:01:37,920 I don't know what else. 30 00:01:38,300 --> 00:01:41,920 I found this cave in there that has an infinite series of zombies coming out. 31 00:01:41,940 --> 00:01:44,460 I don't know if that's a bug or a feature, but it's really annoying. 32 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:51,900 Anyhow, I was telling him that like, you know, if you don't want to do work, the best thing to do is just hurry up and do it so you can be done. 33 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:52,560 That's right. 34 00:01:52,820 --> 00:01:54,420 But I don't think that's getting through. 35 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:57,640 You know, it's sort of like, it's sort of like getting out in the morning and taking a walk. 36 00:01:57,700 --> 00:02:00,140 You should just wake up 30 minutes earlier and go take a walk. 37 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:01,780 It'll probably turn things around for you. 38 00:02:01,860 --> 00:02:02,400 Just do it. 39 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:04,860 I'll tell you, I wrote my best blog post on dog walks. 40 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:06,600 You know, heads clear. 41 00:02:07,060 --> 00:02:08,480 Just, you know, I don't know. 42 00:02:08,540 --> 00:02:10,240 Secret to life is perspective for me. 43 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:13,020 Sometimes watching dogs carefree run around really helps me out. 44 00:02:13,180 --> 00:02:23,060 This reminds me, I've considered many times rewatching all of the West Wing, just so I can find this one scene where it's during the State of the Union address they're working on. 45 00:02:23,180 --> 00:02:24,340 There's, I think his name is Toby. 46 00:02:24,580 --> 00:02:29,420 He's like the chief of communications and kind of chief writer, very moody, like brooding person. 47 00:02:30,060 --> 00:02:36,680 Yeah, and it's like, I think it's maybe like two days before the State of the Union speech and he's in a bar playing pool and someone walks up to him and says, 48 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:38,460 shouldn't you be working on the speech? 49 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,300 And he just looks up to them and sighs and he says, I am working on it. 50 00:02:43,180 --> 00:02:44,360 There you go. 51 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,160 That's my life in a nutshell, without the pool. 52 00:02:47,540 --> 00:02:53,540 So speaking of waking up in a poor state, there was a big Amazon outage last week. 53 00:02:54,100 --> 00:02:55,480 Yeah, that was great for brand awareness. 54 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,000 Yeah, for Amazon brand awareness. 55 00:02:58,640 --> 00:02:59,280 Yes, yes. 56 00:02:59,740 --> 00:03:05,600 Yeah, you know, I was reading through the great brief write-up they had. 57 00:03:05,940 --> 00:03:12,960 First of all, I think I was telling you there's certain people that we work with who we need to introduce paragraphs to, but that's fine. 58 00:03:13,460 --> 00:03:16,980 I think maybe we should sit down, whoever wrote that, and the same thing. 59 00:03:17,100 --> 00:03:18,560 It's just put a break in there. 60 00:03:18,780 --> 00:03:19,400 It's good. 61 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:20,280 Have a little paragraph. 62 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,300 But it was nice to read their write-up. 63 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:26,600 I like the kind of honesty in it. 64 00:03:26,660 --> 00:03:29,700 There was a bit of like, you know, as you would do, assuring that things are good. 65 00:03:29,700 --> 00:03:39,260 But it was basically just like, yeah, we just entered a command wrong, and then more importantly, we're going to make sure they went over, I'm imagining, a safeguard they were going to put in. 66 00:03:39,660 --> 00:03:48,320 I mean, basically what they're doing is they're updating some storage stuff on S3, and then because they mistyped a command, they brought down some other ways of managing S3 things. 67 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:59,040 I forget what they did exactly, but the effect was that it made a lot of the S3 things like reboot probably to fix themselves automatically or something, and then, you know, problems. 68 00:03:59,800 --> 00:03:59,900 Right. 69 00:04:00,060 --> 00:04:18,240 But I like the pretty simple explanation that even a, you know, a old country lawyer like myself can understand that, like, it's just like, they're like, yeah, we made it so that it actually slows down to do that, or we put some governors in there so that if we enter that in, it will catch it or something like that. 70 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:23,700 I like the, I don't know, sort of just like pragmatic down-home-iness of it. 71 00:04:23,780 --> 00:04:24,700 Yeah, I can't. 72 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:28,400 I still try to put myself in the shoes of the person who did it, though. 73 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:29,620 Like, I took down the internet. 74 00:04:30,020 --> 00:04:33,560 Like, it'd be amazing to be that, you know, operations person who typed that in. 75 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:37,000 But, you know, I think a few things caught people off guard. 76 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:43,500 A, everyone realized how much everyone was using S3, but then it also cascaded to other stuff in the data center. 77 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:47,620 Like, there were a bunch of Amazon services that were also experiencing a lot of latency. 78 00:04:48,020 --> 00:04:52,200 And even if you weren't using S3, if you're using these other Amazon services, you were getting hit. 79 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:57,780 So probably good for Amazon themselves to think about, all right, did I have the right sort of circuit breaker stuff in there? 80 00:04:57,780 --> 00:05:00,080 Am I failing gracefully among these other services? 81 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:01,560 Why did everything collapse? 82 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:06,940 But at the same time, they recovered in two to three hours, which can feel like a lot. 83 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,680 But show me most enterprises who would recover from what they did in less than a week. 84 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:12,100 And I'll be surprised. 85 00:05:12,660 --> 00:05:18,960 And this is also going back to the, you should just floss your teeth or walk your dogs or do good behavior. 86 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:29,980 And when you look at methodologies, right, like whether it's agile or DevOps or cloud native, there's this, I'm sure there's some like bias that this is in, in that gigantic thinking fast, thinking slow tone. 87 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,660 But it's sort of like, the first mistake is assuming that you're doing something. 88 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:41,360 So the thing that we're telling you you should change to is better or worse than what you're currently doing. 89 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,340 And in my experience, you're currently not really doing anything. 90 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:50,760 And so like, it's, it's kind of that point that like, sure, it goes down two hours, but like, what's your uptime? 91 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,240 So it is, it's nice that they recovered. 92 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,180 And it was, and I tweeted something last night. 93 00:05:56,240 --> 00:06:01,080 So for some reason, I felt like spending a half hour yesterday checking out some of the sites that went down. 94 00:06:01,180 --> 00:06:04,160 I went to their status pages to see how did they describe the outage? 95 00:06:04,220 --> 00:06:06,480 Did they say like, hey, sorry, our service messed up? 96 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:09,120 Or did they just flat out blame S3? 97 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:25,540 Which again, when I worked for a cloud company and we ran a service, I was taught very clearly, you don't ever blast your, your technology because these are choices you made that either create a single point of failure or whatever that don't blame your technology, you know, blame the, don't blame the tool, blame the person using it. 98 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,480 So when I looked, you know, Slack did a good job. 99 00:06:28,660 --> 00:06:31,200 They said, look, this service for uploading files is offline. 100 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:33,600 Didn't say the technology, their service was offline. 101 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,020 But then you jumped to Trello, you jumped to a bunch of others. 102 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:37,100 Yep, S3 is down. 103 00:06:37,180 --> 00:06:37,760 Sorry about that. 104 00:06:37,940 --> 00:06:39,860 And for me, that, that, that's a cop out. 105 00:06:39,860 --> 00:06:46,500 I think you got to take more ownership of your architectural choices that made your system collapse because one of your dependent services was unavailable. 106 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:48,120 But that's just me. 107 00:06:48,460 --> 00:06:57,040 And, you know, not to be overly dismissive, I was reading through some, some stuff, some, some, some description of what's going on out in the industry earlier this morning. 108 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:07,360 And there's, there's, you know, I came across one of the usual stories where sometime in the past, some servers went down and people lost like a million dollars a minute or something while they were down. 109 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,320 So, you know, there's stuff that can happen that is definitely terrible. 110 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:25,840 But I think, I think, I think, I think more of the, again, like it's, it's figuring out the right baseline or the floor and realizing that things over time improve if you're operating in a fact-based world. 111 00:07:25,980 --> 00:07:26,080 Yeah. 112 00:07:26,140 --> 00:07:35,540 And at the end, and this is always the reminder too, because it's easy for, especially now, I guess, marketing people to say, well, you should just build everything super highly available and shame on you for, for hitting outage. 113 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:47,620 But look, you, you get the availability you pay for, and some people don't need to pay for extreme nine nines of uptime that they can, their business can tolerate an hour of being offline versus paying, you know, millions of dollars for redundant infrastructure. 114 00:07:47,620 --> 00:07:48,320 I get that. 115 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,300 But we're still doing amazing things with technology we weren't doing five years ago. 116 00:07:52,420 --> 00:07:54,400 You can probably tolerate a little downtime here and there. 117 00:07:54,700 --> 00:08:06,540 Yeah, that, that would be a fun, you know, IT sort of financial planning thing to do over the course of five years is like write down the, the cheapness that you built into the system. 118 00:08:06,540 --> 00:08:15,560 And then when you get to the point where you're losing like a million dollars a minute, be like, yeah, but we recouped that back at the beginning when we didn't pay like $10 million over what we should have. 119 00:08:15,660 --> 00:08:19,820 So really not a big deal, but, uh, of course no one really thinks like that. 120 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:21,840 No, it's that pesky perspective again. 121 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:22,180 Yeah. 122 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:31,800 So, so speaking of that, of, of reliability now, one, you know, uh, you can explain what the, what this Google cloud spanner thing is to me. 123 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:44,240 And two, I forgotten what the P and cap is, but there was a lot of more fanciful stuff about reliability where they're like, well, it's like you get all threes of cap, but not really, but like, sort of. 124 00:08:45,660 --> 00:08:58,440 Which, which I think, I think, yeah, I think, I think to channel one of my favorite, uh, phrases from Matt Iglesias of the Weeds podcast, I don't, well, that's fine, but I don't think that's how words work. 125 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,100 Yeah, I mean, spanners, some neat stuff. 126 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:05,000 So it's a public beta service from Google. 127 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:13,320 It's, it's more or less a database that acts like a regular relational database, you know, SQL syntax, regular asset transactions, schemas, things like that. 128 00:09:13,420 --> 00:09:20,220 But that it also supposedly horizontally scales really awesome, which is typically what you equate with a NoSQL database. 129 00:09:20,220 --> 00:09:29,500 It does sort of consistency algorithms and does, you know, uh, eventual consistency and replication between nodes that that's not typically how relational databases work. 130 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:36,720 You scale relational by still having, you know, share data files or having read replicas that are slightly out of date, but not too bad. 131 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:47,640 So it's been hard to mung these relational worlds and those SQL worlds if you're trying to get that great consistency story, but also partition tolerance and availability and those sorts of things. 132 00:09:47,740 --> 00:09:52,200 So allegedly, spanner kind of gives you all things in the cap theorem. 133 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:57,240 And again, I think there are people saying, well, you're not totally getting this or that, but this does look like kind of a big deal. 134 00:09:57,540 --> 00:09:59,820 And so definitely encourage people to read that up. 135 00:09:59,820 --> 00:10:03,380 There's some databases kind of based on this model that have also come out. 136 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:07,160 CockroachDB is out that also is like this model. 137 00:10:07,700 --> 00:10:09,000 So pretty cool stuff. 138 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:11,620 They spanner can do some things within the Google service. 139 00:10:11,740 --> 00:10:12,760 So this is an open source. 140 00:10:12,860 --> 00:10:14,500 This isn't run this in your data center. 141 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:15,660 This is run this in Google. 142 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:22,120 One of the reasons they can do it is because Google owns the kind of synchronized clock that lets these nodes day to date. 143 00:10:22,220 --> 00:10:24,740 They can have a greater consistency because they own the clock. 144 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,220 I might not have that in my data center. 145 00:10:27,220 --> 00:10:31,620 So I think it's one of these you probably won't see their service become an on-prem sort of thing. 146 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:37,660 But Google can do it, which means if you like Google Cloud, you have a really awesome database service that I think gives you the best of all worlds. 147 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:38,380 Yeah. 148 00:10:38,900 --> 00:10:45,660 And much like the S3 thing, it's probably better than what you're already using, even though it has the weird pee. 149 00:10:45,780 --> 00:10:49,640 And then meanwhile, I think since last we recorded, there's like a whole series of things. 150 00:10:49,780 --> 00:10:51,920 Like there was, they call this the cloud bleed. 151 00:10:52,460 --> 00:10:56,320 Like is it, people pretty much call every security problem a bleed nowadays. 152 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:58,400 Wasn't there a heart bleed or something? 153 00:10:58,540 --> 00:10:58,900 There was. 154 00:10:59,020 --> 00:11:01,220 It gets a logo, which is awesome. 155 00:11:01,340 --> 00:11:04,840 Like I guess if you have a bad enough vulnerability, you actually get a logo, which is pretty wild. 156 00:11:05,020 --> 00:11:05,260 Yeah. 157 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:05,660 Yeah. 158 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:10,400 So what's the name of the flayed man people on House of Thrones? 159 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:12,700 Those are like the security brand people. 160 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:13,420 Is it Frey? 161 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:14,720 No, Frey is the bridge people. 162 00:11:15,180 --> 00:11:15,400 Anyways. 163 00:11:15,500 --> 00:11:16,100 Yeah, you're right. 164 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:16,840 Yeah. 165 00:11:17,060 --> 00:11:19,480 Now I'm blanking on who slices people up. 166 00:11:19,820 --> 00:11:23,240 So yeah, cloud bleed, you know, cloud flare proxy problem. 167 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:24,960 Things were apparently leaked for a while. 168 00:11:25,300 --> 00:11:29,860 I haven't seen necessarily what this might have, you know, how people got impacted yet. 169 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:31,060 I think it's more of a risk thing. 170 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:44,080 But I think another one of these usual things of, hey, we pass a lot of things through a lot of proxies nowadays through caches and DNS and data services and clouds that, you know, you're going to be at risk for these things. 171 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:46,620 Even among providers, it should be even amazingly awesome. 172 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:47,440 Yeah. 173 00:11:47,580 --> 00:11:59,620 You know, I mean, I mean, in my mind, if you like summarize these three things to bring in another, I don't know if it's lateral thinking or something, but like it's sort of like there's still a lot of things IT people need to do. 174 00:12:00,580 --> 00:12:00,980 Right. 175 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:06,620 And it's a little it's like I'm always like a little cautious of it being self-serving, being at a vendor. 176 00:12:06,620 --> 00:12:22,560 But it's like a lot of what we talk about nowadays is not so much like eliminating things and bringing in robots, but it's just like improving and making better the way things operate and introducing productivity by changing the way things are operating. 177 00:12:22,560 --> 00:12:26,640 But there's still like time and time again, if only in security. 178 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:34,200 But I think also like like if you were switching all your stuff over to using Spanner, whatever that may be, you'd want to like figure out what's going on there. 179 00:12:34,340 --> 00:12:43,140 And then if you were if you were designing a storage thing, you would want to have some some partition tolerance in your global storage mechanisms. 180 00:12:43,140 --> 00:12:46,900 And all of that stuff still requires people to figure stuff out. 181 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:51,080 It's not like the robots just gleefully take over and you're dandy. 182 00:12:51,640 --> 00:13:00,040 No, I wrote a blog post this last week on the Pivotal blog about enterprise architecture and cloud and how those two may look in the future together. 183 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:06,320 And some of the points still is cloud doesn't negate the need for enterprise architects any more than it does these other roles. 184 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:14,620 But the roles change and the needs change, but I still need people to make good decisions on connecting stuff and deciding what to use stuff and securing things. 185 00:13:14,780 --> 00:13:19,840 So it's it's adopting to the new world, as I think we're going to talk about today and the rest of the chat as well. 186 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:25,040 What I like about that piece is like you gave actual recommendations of stuff enterprise architects should do. 187 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:26,080 Right. 188 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:36,140 Which I think I think I think a lot, you know, when we when we go in and talk with people at large organizations, I don't know, just to give a useless but like rhetorically useful. 189 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:41,760 Like number, I think about a third of the conversations are basically like, so what you're telling me is I'm going to get fired. 190 00:13:42,580 --> 00:13:43,020 Right. 191 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:58,480 And and like I think I think enterprise architects, QA to a certain extent, operations people definitely like like PMO people and and sometimes programmers, but very rarely are sort of all they kind of have that fear. 192 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:14,420 And I think I think what we as an overall cloud native with a hyphen between the two words community like are just starting to do, but that we need to do a lot more of in the next few years is basically explain like what things all the different roles need to do. 193 00:14:14,420 --> 00:14:14,700 Right. 194 00:14:14,700 --> 00:14:23,840 Not not sort of like the the desired in state that an organization should look like and not even necessarily how you transition, but like what are people doing every day? 195 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,160 Like what does an enterprise architect do and how do they fit in doing things? 196 00:14:27,180 --> 00:14:39,880 And I think that, you know, if I'm remembering your post correctly, I mean, to unhelpfully summarize it, it's basically like, well, what an enterprise architect should do is help the application teams do better software. 197 00:14:40,420 --> 00:14:40,980 Right. 198 00:14:40,980 --> 00:14:41,100 Right. 199 00:14:41,180 --> 00:14:44,060 Like, yeah, it's actually representing the customer a bit. 200 00:14:44,060 --> 00:14:44,320 Yeah. 201 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:44,580 Yeah. 202 00:14:44,580 --> 00:14:46,000 Just what your standards look like. 203 00:14:46,060 --> 00:14:48,920 Instead of focusing on a governance role. 204 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:49,420 Right. 205 00:14:49,740 --> 00:14:59,440 It's more important to get involved in the process of discovering new and better ways of doing things that are properly risk managed from a technical standpoint to the to the organization. 206 00:14:59,900 --> 00:15:00,100 Right. 207 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,800 So you don't want to enforce standards. 208 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:25,140 You want to come up with new ways and new practices and technologies to operate and do, which I think is a very like not in the social political phrase meaning, but it's a very privileged position in an organization that that you get to be the applied shiny object seeker rather than the the UML toiler and enforcer and there are even coder who's doing something. 209 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:25,400 Yeah. 210 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,420 I mean, I wrote UML standards when I was an enterprise architect. 211 00:15:28,420 --> 00:15:30,740 So I know that I know that world well. 212 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:40,020 But I think this as you mentioned, it's we have to be better about showing what these things look like, not just saying here's this magical new world adjust like, all right. 213 00:15:40,020 --> 00:15:42,580 How do I adjust architecture, data processes, operations? 214 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,600 So we can, I think, as an industry do much better at that. 215 00:15:45,900 --> 00:15:52,660 But I think as you talk to customers, as we all hear from what real businesses are doing, this isn't, you know, fantasy stuff. 216 00:15:52,740 --> 00:15:58,860 These are how companies are trying to become more software driven by having more roles that are invested in business outcomes. 217 00:15:58,860 --> 00:16:08,220 You know, what architects aren't just running architecture review boards to tell you if you've, you know, checked all the boxes, it's, hey, we made life better for our customers. 218 00:16:08,340 --> 00:16:10,180 Will we increase revenue because we built better software? 219 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:11,120 Hopefully, yes. 220 00:16:11,180 --> 00:16:12,220 Then your job still matters. 221 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:12,680 Yeah. 222 00:16:12,860 --> 00:16:19,420 As one of my, there's many favorite lines of mine in this talk that Mark at HCSC gave at SpringOne Platform. 223 00:16:19,420 --> 00:16:27,240 But, but as, as he said in one line, and is repeated in that, that CIO panel that John Grosshandler did with him and Allstate people. 224 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:32,280 But he said, if we release 35 times a week, how am I going to get an architectural review? 225 00:16:33,340 --> 00:16:34,480 Right, right. 226 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:40,680 It's just like the, the nature of the cabs and everything's has to change if, if that's the in-state that you want to get to. 227 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:49,580 So before we get to the topic, you, you also, uh, added in, uh, that, that we released, uh, Spring Cloud Services, which I, which I, tell me if I'm wrong. 228 00:16:49,580 --> 00:16:57,340 I, and this is in, in Pivotal Web Services, uh, I think, but it's basically a way of controlling your, uh, I don't know how to describe it. 229 00:16:57,340 --> 00:17:04,320 Your intra-application communications, how inside your, your application, all the services and nodes and everything can talk with each other. 230 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:05,880 Did I get that right? 231 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,640 You're, you're, uh, you're like 48%, right? 232 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:10,240 That's good. 233 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:10,760 That's good. 234 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:11,120 Solid. 235 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:12,520 You know, it's a good batting average. 236 00:17:12,820 --> 00:17:30,760 So, uh, yeah, so I've had that some pivotal news here cause I thought this was interesting is so Spring Cloud Services is a, and this is available on Pivotal Web Services or Pivotal Cloud Foundry, but it's us packaging up some of the core Spring Cloud projects like Eureka, which is a registry, you know, the phone book for the cloud services, microservices. 237 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:35,460 It packages up the config server, which lets you store configs outside of your app. 238 00:17:35,780 --> 00:17:38,220 Also does hysterics for circuit breaker stuff. 239 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:42,700 And so we bundle it all up and then when you deploy it, we build the quick infrastructure. 240 00:17:42,700 --> 00:17:48,740 It's not hard to do in Spring itself, but we simplify it to actually deploy a config server or deploy an Eureka server. 241 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:55,360 And so where that comes in handy is we also added container to container networking to Pivotal Cloud Foundry and Pivotal Web Services. 242 00:17:55,900 --> 00:18:10,280 What this means is that a container of an app, so let's say I have app A with six instances, six containers, right now if that app A needs to talk to app B, I go back to a routing tier and I kind of lose who I am so I can't do, you know, just anybody can call app B. 243 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:20,260 What container to container to container networking does is say I can have a policy that says app A is allowed to talk to app B over this port and this sort of protocol. 244 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:20,960 That's cool. 245 00:18:21,500 --> 00:18:26,140 And so how would I know the freaking IPs of an individual container? 246 00:18:26,260 --> 00:18:27,060 That's kind of obscure. 247 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:34,580 So when I have something like Spring Cloud Services and Eureka, when I register my service B, I'm telling it where my services are, what my container IPs are. 248 00:18:34,820 --> 00:18:38,040 So service A can say, Eureka, I want to call this container directly. 249 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:39,520 What is its IP address? 250 00:18:39,780 --> 00:18:41,300 Eureka can tell you that. 251 00:18:41,660 --> 00:18:46,500 So it's a nice way to actually have a phone book for all your services that's live updated and cached and things like that. 252 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:48,880 And then it's all bundled up with Spring Cloud Services. 253 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:58,920 And then container to container networking gives you a really secure, nice way to bypass any extra proxies and do kind of secure policy-based communication between different containers. 254 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:00,120 Makes sense. 255 00:19:00,500 --> 00:19:00,680 Yep. 256 00:19:00,780 --> 00:19:01,340 Yeah, fun stuff. 257 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,800 That's the other 52% that was needed. 258 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:06,020 To fill it in there. 259 00:19:06,180 --> 00:19:06,440 That's good. 260 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:06,720 That's right. 261 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:07,780 I'll take 48. 262 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:08,760 That sounds accurate. 263 00:19:09,300 --> 00:19:11,860 You know, I don't want a controlling interest in being right. 264 00:19:11,980 --> 00:19:12,860 That sounds exhausting. 265 00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:16,900 Well, so I brought the topic that we'll have. 266 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:18,240 We don't have a guest this week. 267 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:34,780 So as I was alluding to earlier with the post that you wrote and what I liked about it, giving actual advice, I've been asked a few times recently to come and give a talk that's basically kind of follows the following premises of like, yes, we've read 268 00:19:34,780 --> 00:19:44,160 We've read the internet and we know all the stuff that we're supposed to do DevOps and cloud native and we're supposed to have a unified team and deploy once a week and all of this stuff. 269 00:19:44,380 --> 00:19:52,620 But we're currently in a large organization that collectively basically doesn't want to do any of that and thinks that it's impossible. 270 00:19:53,260 --> 00:20:02,140 And clearly the adamation that I wrote last year, the stop hitting yourself anti-pattern, where I just said, don't do that. 271 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:03,320 Obviously, that didn't work. 272 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:05,520 We kept hitting ourselves. 273 00:20:05,700 --> 00:20:06,340 That's right. 274 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:10,480 So, so I, and, and, and I, I think, I think this is a fair ask. 275 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:25,620 And the ask is basically like, so can you tell us how other companies like actual things and tactics that they've done, how they have gotten better and like moved closer towards doing, you know, DevOps is the thing people always want to say. 276 00:20:25,620 --> 00:20:33,900 So, so they say DevOps, despite all the, all the time we've spent on cloud native with a hyphen sort of like hyping, they just say DevOps, which is fine, whatever. 277 00:20:34,500 --> 00:20:43,620 And they're like, so how do people actually switch over to doing DevOps when, you know, the company, the organization doesn't want to like, what, what do you do? 278 00:20:44,340 --> 00:20:48,840 And, you know, for, because it's, because it's, is it still popular? 279 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,000 I assume so to put a new phrase in front of DevOps. 280 00:20:52,260 --> 00:21:01,560 I've been calling this my impossible DevOps project, you know, when you're operating in a caustic corporate culture and I'll, I'll, I'll clean it up and share it publicly. 281 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:07,880 Like I did my other booklet, but I started writing down these things in, in a little booklet and I'll share it in the show notes here. 282 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:13,280 I think I'll set it up so that if you go to cote.io slash cloud three, that, that you can look it up. 283 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:24,040 But I don't know, I thought, I thought one, I would say like, you know, I'm, I'm working on this project and I, I'm curious to hear from people who have struggled through like doing the right thing in their organizations. 284 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:32,740 And, and more importantly, it's not only good to know like what tactic you actually did to make it possible, but it's also good to know, I don't know what you would call it, a heuristic for giving up. 285 00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:43,180 Like, like I think, I think in a lot of the O'Reilly circuit rainbow and sandals, like even the, the DevOps enterprise summit, there's, there's this maniacal focus on like, 286 00:21:43,180 --> 00:21:45,580 just keep working on it and doing it right. 287 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,900 But sometimes you should just give up and like move on to other things, right? 288 00:21:49,980 --> 00:21:52,820 They, if to use a fanciful term, you should prioritize. 289 00:21:53,340 --> 00:21:58,180 So it's good to identify when something, some effort that you're working on or change isn't going to work. 290 00:21:58,360 --> 00:22:03,680 And it's better to just desert that and move on to something else that you can, you can change. 291 00:22:03,780 --> 00:22:08,640 So one, it'd be great to hear in any, any anecdotes people have on that. 292 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:08,960 Yeah. 293 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:09,760 So this is a good topic. 294 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:17,400 You know, I think that's what a lot of us like going to conferences for is to hear stories of other people and how they've kind of gone down these journeys. 295 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:22,700 They're just talking about how their technology will make you awesome when you're frustrated, you can't get the last technology and shop. 296 00:22:23,260 --> 00:22:25,140 And so you're just showing the future I can't have. 297 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:31,300 So there is a lot of, of great stuff there on, we do see some of our customers talk about to your point too. 298 00:22:31,360 --> 00:22:35,180 There's sometimes giving up and there's also just accepting that you'll never move beyond incubation. 299 00:22:35,180 --> 00:22:37,640 So we'll always be a departmental thing that goes fast. 300 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,720 Other departments have too much just resistance to change. 301 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:46,000 And either you have to go work somewhere else or accept that you're going to, your work stays local. 302 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,900 That's probably a tough realization, but I think we do see that. 303 00:22:49,300 --> 00:22:55,900 The Lord's prayer of cloud native, if I remember my Bible stuff correctly, or the fried egg theory. 304 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:56,560 Yeah. 305 00:22:56,660 --> 00:23:05,160 Like as, as an example of it, like, like there's one, I think this is the first one that I started writing down is, is I've come up with a trite way to put it. 306 00:23:05,180 --> 00:23:09,060 Is, and is that, uh, basically like you can't change organizations. 307 00:23:09,060 --> 00:23:18,520 You can only start new ones, which, which is a mixture of like, you know, my delightful cynicism and actual stuff that, that, uh, people we work with have done. 308 00:23:18,580 --> 00:23:22,380 And then a bit of like what we were just talking about, like accepting things that can't work. 309 00:23:22,380 --> 00:23:35,020 And so one of the things that I've noticed, uh, organizations do that they talk about or ones who don't talk about it is they, uh, to use this word, literally, they literally set up a separate organization, uh, 310 00:23:35,020 --> 00:23:38,520 that's doing things in the new devopsy cloud native agile way. 311 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:47,080 So they've got their, their hundreds or thousands of people operating in their traditional way, their waterfall way or wagil fall or whatever. 312 00:23:47,540 --> 00:23:58,340 And the first notion, uh, and also what you would assume is that like, we should fix that organization or we should change or transform that organization into doing things in a new way. 313 00:23:58,780 --> 00:24:12,340 But I think, and this probably isn't universally true, just like anything I say, but like, it seems like the more successful path is you set up a brand new organization, you know, still under the same, like corporate paperwork and everything. 314 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:20,860 Uh, but we, we, we would call it a labs model and you, you, you slowly move people over to this new way of doing things and responsibility over there. 315 00:24:21,360 --> 00:24:29,020 And, uh, you end up like just having your old organization, either it dies out or it stays there, but you have a new organization. 316 00:24:29,020 --> 00:24:36,320 That's often physically located somewhere in examples, like with all state, it has a different name and logos to it. 317 00:24:36,380 --> 00:24:40,120 And it has different operating procedures and probably different reporting staff. 318 00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:41,360 Like everything is just different. 319 00:24:41,360 --> 00:24:45,280 So it's a, it's a tricky way to basically start a fresh, if you will. 320 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:49,400 And I think, I think, you know, also, you know, as more example of the kind of stuff I'm writing up. 321 00:24:49,920 --> 00:25:00,780 Um, so like I said, all state is the chief people who have talked about this, but there's, you know, there's certain other large insurance companies and, and most other customers, they end up setting up this. 322 00:25:00,780 --> 00:25:05,840 Like if, if you see some of the, uh, the talks from Humana, they talk about doing things, setting up a labs as well. 323 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:12,580 But the other thing I think, and this is from, uh, uh, Doug's talk at, um, I guess it was SpringOne platform. 324 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:21,200 He, he threw out this number very quickly that was basically like, at least in his experience, about 30% of your staff won't make it over to the new way of doing things. 325 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:30,460 And so it is like, you know, and, and, uh, I've, uh, I, I think I did a little write up, uh, in my own blog about, about the idea of the frozen middle. 326 00:25:30,460 --> 00:25:37,480 After we, we podcasted about a while ago, like every now and then, uh, and it seems to be in bars or in parking garages after talks. 327 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:43,040 Like I'll talk with other executives and their numbers are usually higher, you know, around 50, 60% or something. 328 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:57,300 And, and it is kind of like depressing, but, but that, that seems to be what a lot of organizations do is they just like, if people don't change, then change the people to put another trite thing around it. 329 00:25:57,300 --> 00:25:59,200 And, and you can't always do that. 330 00:25:59,360 --> 00:26:06,740 So you often need to just set up a, uh, a different organization that isn't, uh, doesn't get infected by the old way of doing things. 331 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:07,760 Yeah. 332 00:26:07,780 --> 00:26:11,760 And then sometimes, yeah, you know, accidentally or on purpose have to starve that old organization. 333 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,800 I've had colleagues tell me about those as consultants that, you know, there's a new way of working. 334 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:16,900 They were brought in to do it. 335 00:26:16,940 --> 00:26:18,940 The other group didn't want to change their application. 336 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,680 So the new team just kind of built some services around it. 337 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:31,220 They didn't have to interface with the old one and slowly and slowly that old services got marginalized and people, you know, you can't always have the antibodies infecting everybody else. 338 00:26:31,460 --> 00:26:36,500 And I'm mixing medical metaphors, but in my old job, we used to say, you'd have the people who didn't like the change. 339 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,500 If you'd be injecting these changes, they would all swarm it and try to kill it. 340 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:44,840 And unless you either have amazing proof points or fantastic executive sponsorship, they're going to win. 341 00:26:45,260 --> 00:26:52,140 Because, you know, I don't know from your experience, I haven't seen yet what the average runway is for some of those incubated teams. 342 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,020 Like, it's great to go spin off this other group. 343 00:26:54,260 --> 00:26:55,220 How much time do they get? 344 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,840 You know, if there's no big results for a couple of years while they set things up, is that going to work? 345 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:01,560 Or do you have to show results really quickly? 346 00:27:02,260 --> 00:27:03,120 What is that? 347 00:27:03,220 --> 00:27:06,580 Unless you have some really good air cover from an executive who believes in it. 348 00:27:06,820 --> 00:27:12,020 Because I've seen the opposite where, again, you think you have a long runway and it starts to shrink and shrink as your sponsors depart. 349 00:27:12,580 --> 00:27:15,980 And all of a sudden now you're left just hanging there and eventually things disappear. 350 00:27:16,420 --> 00:27:18,580 So what kind of sponsorship do you need? 351 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,580 How do you build it broad and deep, not just one person that goes, I love cloud native. 352 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,040 And then they go take another job and you're hosed. 353 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,340 So how do you build up a bunch of people who believe in what you're doing? 354 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:34,060 And most importantly, maybe how do you show proof points right away so that no one wants to shut this thing down? 355 00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:35,100 I don't know what you've seen there. 356 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:42,520 Yeah, no, I mean, that's one of my standard talking points is the pace of change that you do. 357 00:27:42,740 --> 00:27:46,300 And I think, I mean, I'm repeating a little bit of what you're saying. 358 00:27:46,380 --> 00:27:56,440 But I think the main things that I found and I like to talk with people about is, one, like, it's probably going to take a year before you're ready to, like, say if something worked or didn't work. 359 00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,280 And sometimes it's a lot faster and sometimes it's slower. 360 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:09,720 But, you know, the sort of case that I use is long ago by episodes, we had an interview with Tony at Home Depot. 361 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:18,920 And so he's, because he's given several talks on this topic, he's got a great chart about the number of applications that they did over the first year. 362 00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:21,620 And he's got a good narration about some hiccups that they found. 363 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:28,360 And I think what he said in that, when we were in the hallway there with him is that they, at the end of the year, they had like 130 or so applications. 364 00:28:28,360 --> 00:28:35,440 And, you know, some of them were easy, simple applications, and some of them were like the Paint Desk one and the Pro Tools one we talked with them about. 365 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:37,040 So there's a good mix of them. 366 00:28:37,140 --> 00:28:40,700 But, like, you know, you shouldn't expect to convert everything over in a year. 367 00:28:40,940 --> 00:28:44,540 So, one, you should have realistic notions about pacing yourself. 368 00:28:44,660 --> 00:28:53,060 And I think, especially if you look at the pace of change that you see on slide two or three of any presentation from a vendor, 369 00:28:53,540 --> 00:28:56,600 it can feel like you need to operate really quickly and do things fast. 370 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,940 Which, sure, but, like, as a large organization, you have a lot more time. 371 00:29:01,180 --> 00:29:12,300 And also, to your point, I think it's a lot more important in an existing large organization that's looking to do a new thing to make sure they don't screw it up too bad. 372 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:18,180 And you don't want to do everything at once and have big catastrophic failure. 373 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,400 You want to prove out to the organization and yourself that it works. 374 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:29,760 And so you want to be a little more slow and steady than doing everything at once or, you know, doing giant things at once. 375 00:29:29,980 --> 00:29:31,480 Yeah, I think it's underrated, too. 376 00:29:31,740 --> 00:29:32,920 I think you and I have both seen this. 377 00:29:32,980 --> 00:29:35,200 The underrated value of evangelism internally. 378 00:29:35,580 --> 00:29:38,500 Like, you can't take for granted that, hey, we're this funded group. 379 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:39,320 Let's go do our thing. 380 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:40,660 You have to hit the road internally. 381 00:29:40,660 --> 00:29:43,860 Like, to other teams and demonstrate, why did this make a difference? 382 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:45,040 What did we have to change? 383 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:46,000 Field some questions. 384 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:53,680 You know, make this less othering of this group that might feel like they're just wearing weird T-shirts and doing their own DevOps Cloud push thing. 385 00:29:54,100 --> 00:29:55,200 Instead, you've got to sell this. 386 00:29:55,260 --> 00:29:56,500 And then, sure, going to conferences. 387 00:29:56,980 --> 00:29:59,460 Again, I love seeing people evangelize their own things. 388 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:04,080 It helps them hire some of that new blood when some of their existing staff isn't going to adapt. 389 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,040 And at the same time, it helps their colleagues see what they're up to. 390 00:30:07,660 --> 00:30:13,940 And so, I think the evangelism sometimes gets undersold as what you need to do because you just can't assume you have this charter. 391 00:30:14,140 --> 00:30:15,060 Now, just go do it. 392 00:30:15,420 --> 00:30:17,120 Look at 18F, even in the government. 393 00:30:17,420 --> 00:30:22,860 You know, making sure they're showing what it means to do digital and improve what you're doing in government processing. 394 00:30:22,860 --> 00:30:24,020 They talk about it. 395 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:24,500 They blog. 396 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:25,580 They share information. 397 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:26,860 They share open source tools. 398 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,640 You know, you're trying to change an entrenched org. 399 00:30:29,740 --> 00:30:32,420 I think we have to make sure you invest some actual time in that. 400 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:33,200 Yeah, yeah. 401 00:30:33,380 --> 00:30:41,700 I was just typing that in my document as a thing to write up because I think there are some pretty specific tactics that are useful. 402 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:47,420 And more broadly, I think your point is useful as well is you're going to need to do some marketing. 403 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:53,540 And I think there's maybe like white hat marketing and gray hat marketing. 404 00:30:53,960 --> 00:31:01,840 And the white hat marketing is just like we did this thing and like, you know, we got a newsletter and we're going to conferences and we're talking about it. 405 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:09,160 And I think I'm always like slightly baffled is the wrong word because I understand why it happens. 406 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,080 But I'm always slightly saddened. 407 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,020 Let's let's use some Bridget terminology. 408 00:31:13,220 --> 00:31:20,900 Makes me sad that that like like I talk with companies and like, oh, yeah, but we don't we we don't do that. 409 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,000 Like they don't let us go talk with people with people. 410 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:28,040 And I try to go over the benefits like it's good for like, you know, hiring. 411 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,700 It's it's it's altruistic to share with people. 412 00:31:30,820 --> 00:31:31,960 It's also good for retention. 413 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:32,540 Right. 414 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:37,240 Like there's probably a lot of high performing people who are like, I'm not being famous enough. 415 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,000 So I'm going to go somewhere where I can. 416 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,580 And like it's just all around good. 417 00:31:41,580 --> 00:31:43,480 And the risks are extremely minimal. 418 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:43,860 Right. 419 00:31:43,860 --> 00:31:50,980 I mean, I guess, you know, if you're like some sort of like make multiple changes a day, like flash trader on Wall Street. 420 00:31:50,980 --> 00:32:02,720 You don't want to go like publish your algorithms or whatever, how you've how you've torqued your networking and flash stuff so that you can get like some millisecond, like whatever it is, all that mess is. 421 00:32:02,900 --> 00:32:08,680 But it's the mistaken belief that my technology stack is somehow proprietary to how my company succeeds, which is so dumb. 422 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,680 Like if every customer in the world used Pivotal Cloud Foundry, guess what? 423 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,280 There will still be competitive advantages. 424 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:13,680 Exactly. 425 00:32:13,780 --> 00:32:15,260 It's all about how to use this stuff. 426 00:32:15,260 --> 00:32:23,640 I was at a conference recently just staffing the table and one of the competitors of one of our customers came up and I was talking with him. 427 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:31,080 They're like, yeah, we love all the talking that we do because we can like understand how they fix how they're they're improving themselves and doing things. 428 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,760 And like there was a bit of a wry smile with it. 429 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:38,220 And, you know, in my mind, I was thinking like, well, you know, you should do that. 430 00:32:39,020 --> 00:32:39,420 Right. 431 00:32:39,420 --> 00:32:52,800 Like, like just because someone's going over how they're operating and doing best practices, like it's not really going to make your it's not going to make your competitors' lives easier because it's kind of the whole premise of this whole paper I'm working on. 432 00:32:52,860 --> 00:32:56,360 It's sort of like we all know the right things we're supposed to be doing. 433 00:32:56,500 --> 00:33:01,880 What's difficult is in your organization how to apply it and how to how to get it to work. 434 00:33:02,020 --> 00:33:03,580 Well, all that matters is execution. 435 00:33:03,980 --> 00:33:06,700 You know, it's why the ideas people don't usually win out at the end. 436 00:33:06,780 --> 00:33:09,060 It's you got to take that idea and do something with it. 437 00:33:09,060 --> 00:33:10,040 So share your ideas. 438 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:19,740 And as you say, make people want to work there or feel like their work is valued because they can share it and they can learn something from these conferences when someone says, yeah, we use that technology, too. 439 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:20,900 What did you think about this? 440 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:22,380 It's not just broadcasting. 441 00:33:22,380 --> 00:33:30,480 It's actually listening when you do these sort of marketing, quote unquote, exercises as an architect or an evangelist within your individual company and team. 442 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:38,080 Yeah, I was reading the notes from, I think, our first ever Pivotal Cloud Foundry community talk up or something. 443 00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:47,260 And it was, yeah, I wish I wish I had, well, I don't necessarily like traveling so much, but I wish I had at least heard all that conversation because it was a lot of the bullet points are good. 444 00:33:47,260 --> 00:33:54,240 But it was it was awesome to hear to sort of read what what various people were talking about and how they'd been sorting things out. 445 00:33:54,320 --> 00:34:00,440 And so anyways, it's that spirit of like sharing the knowledge that you have that I think is that I think is helpful. 446 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:05,060 And so before we wrap up, I'll I'll I'll give one more example of like the type. 447 00:34:05,140 --> 00:34:09,680 It's actually two, but they're kind of like, I don't know, they intersect with each other. 448 00:34:09,780 --> 00:34:13,220 Well, but it's a good example of like kind of like what I'm trying to find with this. 449 00:34:13,260 --> 00:34:18,300 And again, I mean, as always, I'm just trying to troll for content from I don't know. 450 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,540 I hopefully that's I don't mean troll in the bad way. 451 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:21,260 I mean, like fish. 452 00:34:21,340 --> 00:34:29,540 Naturally, you're trying to like you're driving around with that tiny little motor on the front of your boat, just sort of like eating your kippered snacks with a little funny hat on. 453 00:34:29,540 --> 00:34:34,860 And you got a line in the river or the pond or lake, whatever body of water you may be in. 454 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:41,280 So, sure, you know, there's this pairing thing that Pivotal is always talking about. 455 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:43,840 And there's pair programming, first of all. 456 00:34:43,980 --> 00:34:51,000 And then you got you got on on on the balance teams or the the all in unsiloed teams that we espouse. 457 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:55,520 Right. So we espouse we say we call a DevOps team a balance team. 458 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,420 I don't I don't know what it's a nice term. 459 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:04,880 And, you know, you've got developers and design people and a product owner and various other stuff. 460 00:35:04,900 --> 00:35:11,480 And the idea is that you have all the roles you need to to own the software end to end and deliver on a weekly cycle. 461 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,520 And so that's a good example of the bromides that we throw out there. 462 00:35:14,540 --> 00:35:16,560 It's like everyone's like, yes, sounds great. 463 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:18,880 Yes, I should eat more fruits and vegetables. 464 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:19,440 Thank you. 465 00:35:20,700 --> 00:35:29,100 But one of the practices that people actually do and and more importantly, that they they don't do and they kind of fail at this is is is pairing. 466 00:35:29,100 --> 00:35:34,960 And it's not only pair programming, but you pair up with the product owner and the designer and pretty much everyone works in pairs. 467 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,140 And this has some sort of obvious benefits. 468 00:35:38,820 --> 00:35:46,560 One of them is that there's a better diffusion of knowledge and therefore risk management of things happening, which people will. 469 00:35:46,940 --> 00:35:52,680 A lot of these phrases having come up with sort of like cynical people like myself, we have we they're all death based. 470 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:53,640 So there's a bus number. 471 00:35:53,820 --> 00:35:54,020 Right. 472 00:35:54,060 --> 00:36:02,400 Like if how many how many of your your team could be hit and killed by a bus or severely incapacitated without halting your project. 473 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,340 So if you're diffusing this knowledge, you have a lower I guess it would be a higher. 474 00:36:06,460 --> 00:36:06,760 I don't know. 475 00:36:06,900 --> 00:36:07,880 Your bus number is better. 476 00:36:08,460 --> 00:36:09,140 Higher tolerance. 477 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,300 Have to go look higher partition tolerance. 478 00:36:11,860 --> 00:36:13,660 So there's that. 479 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,240 But there's another there's there's a productivity. 480 00:36:16,500 --> 00:36:17,840 There's a few productivity enhancements. 481 00:36:17,900 --> 00:36:24,040 One of them is the obvious just upping the quality of code because it's constantly under review and you can do testing much faster. 482 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:24,740 So there's that. 483 00:36:25,220 --> 00:36:28,360 But there's another one that I think is a little more subtle that gets to a larger one. 484 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:38,000 That's important, which is the time that people spend syncing up and communicating with each other gets cut because they're constantly working with each other, especially if you're rotating people. 485 00:36:38,500 --> 00:36:44,700 And so you don't need to have that like three hour design review meeting where you're communicating what's happening and explaining it to people. 486 00:36:44,980 --> 00:36:58,700 And then because you have such a high throughput of people coming up and designing things together, it even starts to bump up against what we were talking about earlier, where you don't need to have enterprise architects coming up with things as much because you have two heads. 487 00:36:58,700 --> 00:37:04,360 And then if you rotate them, multiple heads, like working on the overall architecture and design of the system. 488 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:05,140 But it really is. 489 00:37:05,240 --> 00:37:14,720 I think that the key interesting benefit under the waterline is this this idea that you spend less time communicating and syncing up, which we know from the Church of Bezos. 490 00:37:15,220 --> 00:37:18,620 Anytime you have to communicate and have a meeting, you're on the path to failure. 491 00:37:19,460 --> 00:37:20,000 Yeah, it might be. 492 00:37:20,240 --> 00:37:22,020 I might have the same amount of communication. 493 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,360 I think it's just you shrinking the cost of it because it's all fine. 494 00:37:25,660 --> 00:37:33,860 I'm still having all the same chats, but I'm going from like I'm interested in this to I'm seeing it in the app in an hour later because someone just took it and CI'd it. 495 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:34,680 And that's right. 496 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:35,660 So it's exciting. 497 00:37:35,660 --> 00:37:44,660 And so I guess I think about it as less communication because if you're already up to speed because you've been working on something, you spend a lot of time communicating about it. 498 00:37:44,980 --> 00:37:49,680 But you don't have to spend all that time bringing someone in a context and let's bring him to it. 499 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:53,260 It's like it's like the Donnie pattern from the Big Lebowski, right? 500 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,440 Like you don't want to be like a child that's walked into a conversation. 501 00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,540 You want to like be involved in it and have all the context. 502 00:38:00,240 --> 00:38:05,780 And that in fact roles like you point out starting to point out in your document that business analysts and others, it's a different role. 503 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:16,760 And then you think about how that spreads to the rest of the organization is as you bring these people on the team and pair them up and have them work on the team, like you break down that communication overhead. 504 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:25,600 And then if you don't need to have all these meetings, that starts to get towards the kind of ideal that Allstate has spoken about and also others. 505 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:37,240 I think HCSC has gone over this is like people find that their developers or their product team people were actually not spending the majority of their time actually working. 506 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,320 This goes back to my dad advice to my seven-year-old. 507 00:38:40,720 --> 00:38:46,020 They're just like doing all this other stuff, you know, syncing up and meeting and like whatever and transitioning. 508 00:38:46,740 --> 00:38:54,520 And so also once you pair people up and they have a more high throughput with syncing and communicating, they actually spend a lot of time working. 509 00:38:54,820 --> 00:38:57,320 And then you just get a productivity boost from that. 510 00:38:57,720 --> 00:39:04,340 And this also goes back to my principle that like you should never assume you're actually doing anything if you're worried about adopting a new process. 511 00:39:04,340 --> 00:39:15,380 Like my suspicion based on my own experience is that like no matter what you're doing, if you try some new methodology and you actually do it, you're probably going to get a productivity boost because you're doing something. 512 00:39:15,700 --> 00:39:27,860 Whereas previously you were just kind of messing around and then, and then finally, so the other thing this connects to is, um, I was just talking with, uh, with a, with a large bank last week and the topic of offshoring came up. 513 00:39:27,980 --> 00:39:33,960 And so offshoring is one of those things where like, uh, I don't know, you're probably stuck with it. 514 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:39,260 And it's also, it's also really easy to be a jerk about offshoring. 515 00:39:39,260 --> 00:39:39,540 Right. 516 00:39:39,740 --> 00:39:44,940 Um, and because I think the premise of offshoring, there's some premise of like follow the sun, 517 00:39:44,940 --> 00:39:51,020 but I have a pretty strong suspicion that the primary premise of offshoring is cheapness, right? 518 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:57,440 Is basically like, it's cheaper to hire people, uh, in Eastern Europe or Asia or whatever. 519 00:39:57,720 --> 00:40:05,220 And they have the same skillset and they have the same ability than it is to hire people in, in, uh, onshore or whatever. 520 00:40:05,380 --> 00:40:07,960 And, and, and there's all sorts of issues that result from that. 521 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:12,960 Uh, you know, we might only have like an hour or two of, of time to talk with them. 522 00:40:13,100 --> 00:40:17,360 And so it's hard to, to synchronize both ways, both from your offshore location. 523 00:40:17,620 --> 00:40:24,860 I mean, I guess offshore is a state of mind depending on where you live, but it's, it's hard for the two shores to talk with each other and synchronize. 524 00:40:25,100 --> 00:40:36,600 And so this issue comes up a lot when we talk about co-location and people working and based on, I was in a, uh, I, I went to, uh, some cloud native roadshows we had in Omaha and Kansas city. 525 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:39,640 And we had the Garmin people who are a customer of ours come talk at it. 526 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:43,280 And they had this issue and they were saying that there were a few things that they walked through. 527 00:40:43,460 --> 00:40:48,020 Um, and first I'll insert my, my first unhelpful one, which is, well, don't do that. 528 00:40:48,260 --> 00:41:00,120 Barring that as your solution, they, they were saying that what they had found is that, um, one, it's good to co-locate for some regular amount of time, maybe initially for like a month. 529 00:41:00,300 --> 00:41:07,140 And, you know, and, and they were saying that it's, it's kind of good, whoever the primary person is for them to go over there to base. 530 00:41:07,140 --> 00:41:16,000 And then I'm reading, I'm interpolating a lot in here and I kind of had this conversation with them that like, uh, it's good to build up trust between the both organizations. 531 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:23,800 And one of the ways to show trust is to like, you do you, the primary people do the drudgery work of traveling somewhere and, uh, giving up being there. 532 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:30,640 So you want to build up that initial trust and, and, uh, um, also start pairing with them and try to do it remotely. 533 00:41:30,980 --> 00:41:36,920 But I think, I think the, and you do this pairing to sort of like build up trust with them both ways and to kind of transfer skills. 534 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:43,100 And so you might do that for several months and go back and forth and do some pairing to kind of have this diffusion of knowledge. 535 00:41:43,240 --> 00:41:52,260 And then I think another pattern that, that you notice is if you're following a, a, uh, sort of like a, a highly microserviced approach for doing things. 536 00:41:52,260 --> 00:42:02,660 Well, if you remember the point of microservices, it's like not only all the benefits of SOA, but you're supposed to take advantage of organizational, um, problems. 537 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:12,040 One of those being that when you have a silo or a group of people, they locally optimize whatever they're working on and don't pay attention to how it integrates and works with other things. 538 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:20,380 So you should take advantage of that in an offshoring situation and basically fully partition off the code that you're working on to just that offshore location. 539 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:32,500 And if they're following all the microservices practices, it's not like it's going to a hundred percent solve the problem, but it's at least going to get to them the point where they can be an independent team operating on whatever service they have. 540 00:42:32,580 --> 00:42:35,780 And you can minimize the, the sinking that you need to do with them. 541 00:42:36,060 --> 00:42:36,460 So, sure. 542 00:42:36,580 --> 00:42:37,760 So like a balanced team. 543 00:42:37,900 --> 00:42:39,120 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 544 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:39,480 Or else. 545 00:42:39,580 --> 00:42:39,960 Right, right. 546 00:42:40,020 --> 00:42:52,360 And, and the analogy I was using with, with the, uh, with the bank last week was like, you know, it's not like Apple, Google, and Facebook and Twitter sit down and co-locate with each other to make sure that the whole internet works. 547 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:53,280 Right. 548 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:58,060 Like they just, they just sort of like set up a bunch of services and they talk with each other here and there. 549 00:42:58,300 --> 00:43:00,380 And it just kind of sort of all works together. 550 00:43:00,380 --> 00:43:03,660 And so like, similarly, like you need to set up your teams like that. 551 00:43:03,660 --> 00:43:08,560 If, if you're going to be truly like set up as, as, uh, as separate teams across the globe. 552 00:43:08,780 --> 00:43:08,840 Yeah. 553 00:43:08,860 --> 00:43:09,920 Which we do at pivotal, right? 554 00:43:09,940 --> 00:43:17,780 We have 50, 60 teams all across different countries to build individual parts of cloud foundry and pivotal cloud foundry and spring and all those things. 555 00:43:17,780 --> 00:43:22,340 And somehow they all kind of stay in sync with some light touch, but they're also independent units. 556 00:43:22,340 --> 00:43:25,300 I think that maybe is a nice path forward for some of those teams. 557 00:43:25,300 --> 00:43:31,540 If you can give them some of the ownership of the whole life cycle and not just be order takers from architects somewhere else. 558 00:43:31,940 --> 00:43:32,740 Yeah, that's right. 559 00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:35,660 Well, so that's, uh, that's my little preview of what I'm doing there. 560 00:43:35,660 --> 00:43:47,340 We'll see, we'll see, uh, we'll see how quickly I can get little bits and pieces of it out, but I'll, uh, I'll, I'll make sure there's nothing embarrassing in it and, and, uh, and make it public for listeners here that they can go look at. 561 00:43:47,460 --> 00:43:49,860 And if they have any suggestions, that'd be great. 562 00:43:50,940 --> 00:43:53,540 Well, as always, this has been Pivotal Conversations. 563 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:58,800 You can find the most recent up-to-date things, or what does that mean? 564 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,920 Most recent up-to-date things you can, you can find, you can get episodes the quickest. 565 00:44:03,260 --> 00:44:10,720 If you go to, uh, if you subscribe to the feed, you can find us in iTunes and probably other places, definitely in overcast. 566 00:44:10,900 --> 00:44:13,800 Just search for Pivotal Conversations and subscribe to it. 567 00:44:13,900 --> 00:44:16,440 And then we also host everything over at SoundCloud. 568 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:20,540 You can go to soundcloud.com slash Pivotal Conversations, all one word. 569 00:44:20,660 --> 00:44:23,940 You can go check out all the past episodes and things we've been doing there. 570 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,280 I think I've finally released all of our, uh, our red monk episodes. 571 00:44:27,700 --> 00:44:30,080 So you can go see a little playlist of all of that. 572 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:39,020 And then also, uh, as always, uh, we, uh, about every week we post the full show notes for an episode over at, uh, pivotal.io slash podcast. 573 00:44:39,540 --> 00:44:43,380 And you can find the, uh, things we've referenced and little summaries over there. 574 00:44:43,860 --> 00:44:49,060 And, uh, it's great if you want to go leave us a review or rating or just recommend us to people. 575 00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:56,040 Uh, that's, that's always handy so that, so that we're not just talking to ourself as delightful and therapeutic as that may be each week. 576 00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:58,080 And with that, we'll see everyone next time. 577 00:44:58,380 --> 00:44:58,920 Bye-bye.