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Well, sadly, today, there's no rain discussion to be had.

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Frankly, it's a really nice day here.

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I think spring has ended in Austin, and we're right into summer.

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The early days of summer.

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So that's going to be exciting for us.

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How's it going on up there in Seattle, Richard?

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Yeah, it was like a balmy 50 yesterday.

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Walking around with shorts on, shirtless.

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It was early summer somehow, but back down to the 40s this week, so it was short-lived.

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Now, is that the kind of weather where you get your Columbia or Patagonia fleece out,

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or do you switch to one of those thin rain slicker things?

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What do they do up there?

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That's a good question.

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Now it's almost jacketless.

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I was seeing people walking around in just short sleeves yesterday.

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It was anarchy.

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How about the vest?

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What's the status of the vest up there?

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I mean, there's the hipster vest.

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I don't know if I've seen vests sprung out too much lately with the Seattle crowd.

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So it's not back to the future up here.

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How about yourself, Dino?

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What's going on sartorially according to the weather in your part of the world?

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We also had a nice warm weekend.

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It was great.

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I got outside, washed the motorcycle.

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That was nice.

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Rode around a little bit.

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You know, whatever weather Seattle and Portland gets, we generally get it too.

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So if it's raining, it's raining on the West Coast.

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Now when you wash a motorcycle, what do you do?

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Do you just like spray it off or do you have to be careful about the engine and stuff?

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Like what's going on with that?

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You ride in the rain all the time, so no problem getting it wet.

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It's just mostly getting all the mud and garbage off of it.

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I see.

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All the bugs, I guess.

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Yeah.

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You get bugs.

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Yeah.

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That makes sense.

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Well, why don't you briefly...

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I'm just picturing you driving through the regular car wash.

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You know, just like a badass.

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Sitting there with the helmet on.

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Like not moving.

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All the soap and the weird brushes are getting you.

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I'm sure that's not what happens, but that's what's important.

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Well, there's been some rainstorms I've been in that it's felt that way, but...

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Hopefully you get a discount for that at the car wash.

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Yeah.

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Less surface area to...

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But then they have to dry you off.

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So who knows?

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Maybe it's equal.

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So why don't you introduce yourself briefly?

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We'll get to an extended introduction later, but just so that people know who you are as

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we're talking.

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Sure.

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So Dino Cicerelli, I run the...

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What you could call the professional services organization in the Americas.

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It's focused on PCF.

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So I was thinking we should have you and some of your compatriots on because I was watching

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some of the excellent videos from our global field kickoff.

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And you and a couple of other people on that panel had a good overview of how we...

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Sort of what happens once someone wants to get PCF up and running and how they move applications

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around and do other things like that.

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So we'll get to that on the second half.

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Hopefully it's more than half of the episode.

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But until then, what kind of news do we have, Richard?

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Yeah, we've got a few things.

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I thought it was interesting last week, Microsoft released this program, what they call this,

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something fancy around IP protection.

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And so the idea is that you have access to, I think it's around 10,000 Microsoft patents if

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you run in Azure, you can do for enterprises that, you know, look, if you're worried about

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patent trolls and things like that by running in a public cloud, by the way, we'll protect

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you as part of being an Azure customer.

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So I thought that was a pretty neat program.

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I'll have the link in the show notes.

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But that's one of those enterprise-y things that Microsoft can do given their history and

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patents that others probably have a little tougher time with.

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Yeah, it's kind of more of an intriguing use of patent stuff.

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I don't know if other people do that, but it's, yeah.

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And I guess in some sense, it's also sort of troubling, like, oh, I never would have thought

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about, like, patent stuff running in some cloud thing somewhere.

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I guess that means you can use your, what do they call it, the 8.3 file format stuff.

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I think Microsoft still has that patent, right?

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Hopefully that's expired.

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But I remember there used to be all sorts of wacky battles over, like, you know, how many

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letters, characters you could have in a file extension, all sorts of things like that.

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Yeah, I mean, working for cloud providers in the past, I can tell you there's definitely

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weird patent requests that come in from trolls that are for just comically basic capabilities

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that how can you possibly try to claim a patent on this?

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So I think it's Microsoft's way of trying to say, hey, look, feel comfortable running in

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the public cloud without thinking that you're going to get, you know, have problems.

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You get indemnification to some extent by running on the public cloud.

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So that's nice.

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Yeah, I wonder, you know, I'm no lawyer or a country doctor or anything, but, like, I

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wonder if, given that Oracle just likes to sue everyone who, like, tries to do something

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with Java, I wonder if they have some, like, cross-nuclear protection stuff so that if you

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wanted to run Java, you're sort of legally incented by patent protection to run in Azure.

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That would be fascinating.

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Well, I have to get that.

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There's that reporter, I forget her name, who covers, who, like, lovingly,

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covers all Oracle-related lawsuits over at Vice's motherboard.

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Maybe I can run that theory by her.

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Her coverage is fantastic.

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Basically, her coverage amounts to, oh, no, not again.

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And then she gives a detailed analysis of it.

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Awesome.

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So then I was also seeing you found that there's a manifest editor in, a Cloud Foundry manifest

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editor in Visual Studio, which, I mean, that's pretty straightforward, right?

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You got manifest as a way that you define your application.

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And here's, like, a IDE-driven way to set them up.

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Yeah, that's right.

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I mean, Visual Studio Code's taken off as this sort of cross-platform editor.

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They don't really even call it an IDE or development environment.

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It's an editor.

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You know, I run it on my Mac, run it on Windows, run it wherever.

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You can build Node apps or .NET apps or whatever.

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And in this case, look, if you're building Cloud Foundry apps now, you can just build these

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manifests and get that little nice type-ahead IntelliSense stuff when you're trying to figure

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out if it's instances or instance for the property name.

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A little bit handy.

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Always good stuff.

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So I think we helped contribute to that.

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Maybe we'll see some more if people try it out and have some feedback.

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They should definitely submit it in.

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Now, I thought this would be a good opportunity because, well, maybe long-time listeners know

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this.

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You're kind of like a .NET Microsoft type of person.

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You probably have a closet full of MSDN DVDs.

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Do they still send those out?

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That was always delightful.

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But do you get those still?

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Because it would be a good way.

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I remember when those coming out, it was like every year you would get a new CD holder that

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you could put all your old Wu-Tang and U2 albums in, whatever you might have.

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I don't know who would have such a collection.

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That was almost like the photo albums of my parents.

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Yeah, you'd have all these photos of CDs for the MSDN collection.

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So here's what I want to ask you about that.

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So I remember, even when I would code a little bit, that Visual Studio made everything really

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easy compared to being a Java developer.

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And other than saying Visual Studio is the cure for terribly cooked food everywhere, what's

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like nowadays, what's kind of like the mental expectations of developers in the kind of like

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Microsoft world?

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Like, are they still like latched on to Visual Studio as like their only tool or do they use

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other things or like what are their kind of expectations tool wise of what they use?

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Visual Studio 2017, I think, comes out next month.

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So people still obviously use it a ton.

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Visual Studio code has taken off.

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I've seen a lot of my .NET friends using that as their preferred editor now because it's

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lightweight, nice plugins.

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But I mean, even Visual Studio for Mac is coming out now.

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So you don't have to be on a Windows desktop to be developing this way.

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I mean, Visual Studio, I was building Node apps in there for the last few years because

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it was the best Node editor.

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So it's heavyweight and it's a beast.

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But at the same time, there's probably not much better from at least a Microsoft world

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IDE.

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But I've been using Eclipse or the Spring tool suite for the last 10 months since I've been

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learning Spring.

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And it's not bad itself, but Visual Studio is still probably the best IDE out there.

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And then Dino.

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So it's relatively new that we've had like .NET and Microsoft support.

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Like it's been in and out.

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But like as described earlier, you do a lot of work getting you and your team, getting

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getting Pivotal Cloud Foundry up and running, getting people running it.

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Like what's your sense for like what's up with Microsoft style stacks nowadays in Pivotal

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Cloud Foundry world?

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Like is it on the rise or has it always been there?

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And how do people deal with it?

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We're definitely seeing it on the rise.

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It's actually one of the areas that we're starting to see in the app re-platforming space is increasing

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number of people wanting us to look at .NET.

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And so we actually are, and I'll probably plug this a dozen times in this conversation, we're

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hiring and we need people.

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And we definitely need .NET people.

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So, yeah, no, it's, I wouldn't say it's half yet, but it's probably a third of our app re-platforming

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is starting to touch on .NET.

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So how would you like categorize the types of applications people have in .NET stuff?

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Like, is it just like everything?

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Or do you think there's any particularly interesting types of things that people make in that?

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Right now, it's kind of across the board.

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There isn't anything that's particularly interesting.

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You know, we're trying to look at, a lot of the stuff is, is the platform kind of set up

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correctly to handle the .NET stuff.

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And then there's also the aspect of if people are going to move to core or not.

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That's kind of a big conversation.

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Right.

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And what is, I'll turn this back to you, Richard, then we'll go to the last news thing.

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So what is .NET Core?

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Yes, the .NET Framework or family has gotten complicated.

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You have .NET Framework, which is the traditional Windows-based, you know, full-based libraries

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and so forth, ASP.NET, all those sort of platform, a little more lightweight versions of ASP.NET

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and MVC and all these components.

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So .NET Core is really where it seems like Microsoft's putting all the new attention that

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this is the cross-platform version of .NET.

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And then .NET Framework's kind of the classic Windows-based version.

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So PCF does support both, but as Dino mentioned, I think a lot of shops are trying to figure

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out, do we migrate these apps to .NET Core?

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What does that look like?

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Does it matter?

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And so I know we've been doing some things to help with that.

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That sounds good.

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All right.

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Well, the last news item now, over on my other podcast, Software Defined Talk, we talked about

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this for a little bit.

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It's interesting to sort of figure out like all this spending, what it's for.

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But why don't you go over the last thing?

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Because it'd be interesting to hear your take on why it's interesting and what it is, me

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having discussed it already.

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Yeah.

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I mean, the news was that with Snap filing for IPO that they had put, I think, in their

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reports or statements, they were committing a couple billion dollars over five years for

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Google Cloud Infrastructure.

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So it's like 400 million a year, if I can do math.

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So it was some healthy amount of using Google Cloud.

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Now, initially, there was some hand-wringing, like, oh my gosh, that's a lot of lock-in for

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one cloud.

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What about multi-cloud and portability?

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But I guess as people read it further, they saw there was another billion dollars in there

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for AWS as well.

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So I guess the takeaway is, boy, that's a lot of infrastructure.

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And then also, it probably makes sense to spread that workload across these.

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I don't think we know whether they're running the same things in both or they're using

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certain capabilities from each, probably the latter.

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But hey, that's a lot of infrastructure.

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Yeah.

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When we were discussing it this past Friday, I was thinking, anyone who's probably older

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than 30 feels the need to make fun of Snapchat and the kids, or at least in my school of

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thought.

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So of course, I did that a little bit.

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But then, more realistically, I was thinking, how much processing does that really require?

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Maybe a lot of network bandwidth and storage.

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And I think maybe it was Matt Ray on the podcast who suggested that, well, there's the entire

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back end of figuring out just where to place activity stream stuff.

239
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And then also, as we were thinking about, there's also the back end of, well, what do you sell

240
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to advertisers?

241
00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:16,340
Like, you've got to constantly be analyzing all the demographics of your users and the

242
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best type of placement and all that magic stuff so you can tell the father that his daughter

243
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is pregnant by sending coupons to him that we used to read about.

244
00:12:25,380 --> 00:12:29,660
But I would imagine, you know, plus redundancy and also, I mean, the networking stuff and then

245
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the video rendering must be insane for that kind of stuff.

246
00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:37,560
I bet they must output several different formats of video plus stream it.

247
00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:44,060
But still, like, it's reasonable that something like that could add up to that amount of money.

248
00:12:44,180 --> 00:12:45,560
But man, that's a lot of spend.

249
00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:46,780
That's interesting.

250
00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:47,180
It is.

251
00:12:47,220 --> 00:12:50,200
I think the resilience is the interesting one because this isn't something where you can

252
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tolerate any downtime.

253
00:12:51,420 --> 00:12:53,980
So I'm sure they're so hyper resilient, almost unnecessarily.

254
00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:56,140
But you have to with a service like that.

255
00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:57,120
Yeah.

256
00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:02,660
Well, before we get to the meat of the episode, I thought we might try something a little new.

257
00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:04,140
We do this every now and then, but we'll see.

258
00:13:04,340 --> 00:13:05,600
We'll do a little mid-roll thing.

259
00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:10,740
Now, the first thing that I wanted to mention is that we have your team recently put out this

260
00:13:10,740 --> 00:13:13,300
DIY white paper thing, right, Richard?

261
00:13:13,460 --> 00:13:14,720
You want to tell us about that real briefly?

262
00:13:15,620 --> 00:13:15,980
Yeah.

263
00:13:16,100 --> 00:13:21,640
Jared Ruckel on our team put together this great, one of the financial considerations or the

264
00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:22,540
operational considerations.

265
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And so really good white paper.

266
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You can find it online for free as a download.

267
00:13:25,860 --> 00:13:29,400
But just a good paper if you're trying to think about, well, what should I do versus what

268
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could I do?

269
00:13:30,420 --> 00:13:33,340
And I think those are good questions to ask regardless of where you end up.

270
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Those are things you should address because I think a lot of people forget the hidden post

271
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go live costs of running your own platform.

272
00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:40,500
Yeah.

273
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I think to summarize it, as they say, TLDR is like you can have your own cloud platform

274
00:13:46,060 --> 00:13:49,920
for $7 million a year with 50 people if that's what you're into.

275
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Plus all the incumbent risk involved in that and all of that.

276
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Like I remember there was one some time ago I heard about some company that had, what

277
00:14:00,980 --> 00:14:01,400
had they done?

278
00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:05,900
They had sort of built their own infrastructure cloud and they got everything up and running

279
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and then the whole team that did it like quit and went to go work at some startup somewhere.

280
00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:10,440
Which is...

281
00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:11,980
Yeah, that really happens.

282
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:13,720
That's scary stuff for people.

283
00:14:13,860 --> 00:14:17,680
I mean, basically, my team's trying to get out any white papers, Coté, before your massive

284
00:14:17,680 --> 00:14:19,220
thing comes out and distracts everybody.

285
00:14:19,420 --> 00:14:23,480
So we're just cranking out papers and blog posts right now that you suck up all the oxygen.

286
00:14:23,580 --> 00:14:23,940
Exactly.

287
00:14:24,140 --> 00:14:29,000
I have to say, like, I think we have had a marked difference in the past six months of

288
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:30,460
the type of content that we push out.

289
00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:31,880
We even put it in the URL.

290
00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,540
If you go to content.pivotal.io, we got lots of it.

291
00:14:36,100 --> 00:14:37,040
I noticed that...

292
00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:37,540
What do they call that?

293
00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:38,300
A subdomain?

294
00:14:38,620 --> 00:14:40,760
I never knew my networking stuff very well.

295
00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:42,400
That should work.

296
00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:42,920
I don't know.

297
00:14:42,980 --> 00:14:44,160
Some sort of CNAME?

298
00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:45,260
Is that what that is?

299
00:14:45,580 --> 00:14:46,080
I don't know.

300
00:14:46,140 --> 00:14:46,820
Anyways...

301
00:14:46,820 --> 00:14:47,900
That's the top name.

302
00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:48,360
Keep going.

303
00:14:48,500 --> 00:14:52,700
I don't know if we have any sort of, like, dandy URL for it, but I made one for the other

304
00:14:52,700 --> 00:14:53,060
podcast.

305
00:14:53,260 --> 00:14:58,220
If you want to get to the paper, you just go to softwaredefinedtalk.com slash DIYplatform.

306
00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:02,540
And maybe we'll come up with some fancy short URLs for the future.

307
00:15:02,540 --> 00:15:04,900
But, you know, you got a legion yourself, but whatever.

308
00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:07,060
And then you can get a copy of it.

309
00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:07,700
And it's a good paper.

310
00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,680
It goes over, like, the components that you need and, like, an estimate kind of aggregated from

311
00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:13,240
our customers of what that looks like.

312
00:15:13,300 --> 00:15:15,280
And it's good for your consideration.

313
00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:16,440
So just two more things.

314
00:15:16,900 --> 00:15:21,920
Here in Austin, on February 22nd, 2017, I'm going to be at the Austin Cloud Native meetup.

315
00:15:22,380 --> 00:15:25,460
And I'm going to be giving, like, a version of my normal stump speech.

316
00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:30,140
Just sort of stories about people doing cloud native and DevOps and Agile and kind of, like,

317
00:15:30,140 --> 00:15:32,380
the tips of how they succeed and fail at it.

318
00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,840
And then also, coincidentally, we're having a Pivotal Partner Day here in Austin.

319
00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:37,480
Or days.

320
00:15:37,620 --> 00:15:39,600
I think it's February 21st to 23rd.

321
00:15:40,060 --> 00:15:40,840
You know, something like that.

322
00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:42,100
We'll put a link to it in the show notes.

323
00:15:42,340 --> 00:15:48,000
But if you want to learn about working in the Pivotal ecosystem and partnering, I think

324
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,040
there's even a day, like, if you want to, like, code stuff and bring all your MSDN CDs

325
00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:56,360
or DVDs, you can, like, try that out and see what's going on.

326
00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:01,900
But I'm going to try to go there myself because, you know, it beats work and it'll be fun to

327
00:16:01,900 --> 00:16:03,820
see what partners show up and what they do.

328
00:16:04,900 --> 00:16:05,620
Yeah, it's a good event.

329
00:16:05,900 --> 00:16:06,440
Yeah, yeah.

330
00:16:06,460 --> 00:16:07,040
It should be cool.

331
00:16:07,460 --> 00:16:08,040
It's nice.

332
00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:08,640
It's in Austin.

333
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:09,760
That's great planning.

334
00:16:10,380 --> 00:16:10,740
Anyhow.

335
00:16:10,780 --> 00:16:10,960
Yes.

336
00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:15,640
So, you gave a brief introduction to yourself earlier, Dino.

337
00:16:16,380 --> 00:16:19,020
But tell me, let's start getting into it.

338
00:16:19,020 --> 00:16:24,560
Tell me, like, the team that you work on and kind of the associated structure and Pivotal.

339
00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:28,720
Like, I think a lot of people are familiar with, I guess, people listening to this, sort

340
00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:32,280
of like our outbound talking wonderfully about ourselves effort.

341
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:38,300
And you got the developers and then you got those account executives or reps, as people

342
00:16:38,300 --> 00:16:39,060
like to call them.

343
00:16:39,260 --> 00:16:40,520
Like, people are familiar with all those people.

344
00:16:40,620 --> 00:16:42,580
But, like, what's your part of the organization?

345
00:16:42,900 --> 00:16:44,000
What's that look like?

346
00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:46,020
Sure.

347
00:16:46,180 --> 00:16:53,100
So, the way I always like to say it is, is we're the ones responsible for making what

348
00:16:53,100 --> 00:16:56,140
marketing and sales spins into reality.

349
00:16:56,740 --> 00:17:04,100
So, we actually have to go out there and do the implementation, do the integration, get

350
00:17:04,100 --> 00:17:09,600
it used, and get the customers to a point where they're actually starting to see benefit

351
00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,620
from all the investment that they've made in us.

352
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:13,180
Right.

353
00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:17,360
You're sort of like the anti-shelfware device.

354
00:17:17,900 --> 00:17:20,640
You know, you got to make sure that people use it and are successful at it and that it's

355
00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:21,700
actually valuable.

356
00:17:22,500 --> 00:17:24,160
Yeah, we're kind of the cold, hard reality.

357
00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:24,940
That's right.

358
00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:31,240
Well, I have the urge to ask you how our marketing reality is matching up to reality reality, but

359
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:32,400
I don't think I'll ever ask that.

360
00:17:32,940 --> 00:17:34,700
You know, I think it's just better just not to know.

361
00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:36,560
It sounds like things are going well.

362
00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:38,780
Things are going well.

363
00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:44,860
You know, there's always the push and pull between what you sell and what's reality.

364
00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:50,540
But, I would have to say that we as a company do pretty good at it.

365
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:52,500
We don't oversell.

366
00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:53,940
We don't overpromise.

367
00:17:54,620 --> 00:17:56,960
We definitely try not to under-deliver.

368
00:17:58,420 --> 00:18:04,560
So, we're actually seeing a pretty good uptick from what we've been doing with customers.

369
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:06,220
So, it's actually pretty exciting.

370
00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:06,940
Yeah, yeah.

371
00:18:07,060 --> 00:18:10,820
And, I mean, joking aside, I mean, this is a bit like a parent showing you the wonderful

372
00:18:10,820 --> 00:18:13,280
drawing of a bird that their kid did over the weekend.

373
00:18:13,340 --> 00:18:13,460
Yeah.

374
00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:14,240
Kind of biased.

375
00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:18,700
But, you know, in my mind, I think just over the past few days, I've been in some email

376
00:18:18,700 --> 00:18:22,380
threads where all of a sudden there's like, oh, and then someone came and told them they're

377
00:18:22,380 --> 00:18:25,080
using Pivotal Cloud Foundry as a centralized thing.

378
00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:29,940
Like, there's companies switch over pretty interesting to being interested in stuff.

379
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,080
So, it seems like it's working, which is always great.

380
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:37,500
So, there's kind of two areas I wanted to ask you about.

381
00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:43,200
One of them is just like kind of what it looks like.

382
00:18:44,120 --> 00:18:45,040
I don't know what you would call it.

383
00:18:45,100 --> 00:18:49,200
Maybe roadmap is a word that people like us hate to use, but probably a lot of people use.

384
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:54,940
But, like, what's the, like, typical roadmap or journey that people go on once they become

385
00:18:54,940 --> 00:18:56,200
a Pivotal customer?

386
00:18:56,420 --> 00:18:59,120
Like, what do they need to do to get up and running?

387
00:18:59,260 --> 00:19:00,180
Like, who gets involved?

388
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:02,440
And what kind of time period does that look like?

389
00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,220
And then the second one is about migrating applications and things like that.

390
00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:07,460
But let's go back to that first thing.

391
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:13,660
Like, you know, you've, just like in eBay, you've won the auction and you've been given

392
00:19:13,660 --> 00:19:15,720
the ability to get this shiny new platform.

393
00:19:16,380 --> 00:19:18,500
Like, what do you start doing next?

394
00:19:18,500 --> 00:19:19,680
Sure.

395
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:28,220
So, we actually, to get an understanding of how we look at the world in kind of a macro view

396
00:19:28,220 --> 00:19:34,560
when it comes to PCF, there's, you know, one coin, two sides.

397
00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:38,360
One of those sides is really around operations.

398
00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:40,500
It's around the platform.

399
00:19:41,580 --> 00:19:50,380
It's around working with the IT organization or the existing cloud organization, the people

400
00:19:50,380 --> 00:19:56,680
responsible for, you know, ping power and pipe and services and the people that are going

401
00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:58,680
to actually install the platform, right?

402
00:19:58,680 --> 00:19:59,500
And get it integrated.

403
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:06,900
And something that, and I'm definitely more of an infrastructure person than I am a developer.

404
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:08,980
My developer days are a little bit farther behind me.

405
00:20:10,020 --> 00:20:16,580
And I've always been of the adage that, look, if the operators and the people that own the

406
00:20:16,580 --> 00:20:22,180
platform, the responsibility for keeping the blinky lights on, if they are not seeing benefit

407
00:20:22,180 --> 00:20:28,300
and they're not making their lives better, they will resist change, just like anybody else.

408
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:28,680
Yeah.

409
00:20:28,860 --> 00:20:35,080
And I mean, just to editorialize, I mean, I would add, I think one of the core value propositions,

410
00:20:35,180 --> 00:20:40,880
which is fancy marketing speak for why you like it and why it's valuable, is basically how much

411
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:46,500
optimization of the operator role and therefore the resources you spend on that changes.

412
00:20:46,620 --> 00:20:52,860
And then also, you know, by the nature of automating it, how much it kind of reduces manual error and

413
00:20:52,860 --> 00:20:53,440
things like that.

414
00:20:53,500 --> 00:20:56,560
So it makes sense that, like, that's sort of the first thing you work on.

415
00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:57,960
Yeah.

416
00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:09,600
And keeping in mind from a selling motion and a valued motion, it's never wise to go to those that camp first.

417
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:15,600
Generally, because you can fall into the trap of, if you build it, they will come.

418
00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:17,080
Right, right.

419
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,500
And my history is I built a lot of clouds in my history.

420
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:25,060
I was an old VMware guy for 12 years and built out their cloud practice and everything.

421
00:21:25,260 --> 00:21:30,180
And we built a lot of clouds for a lot of IT organizations and then wondered why people didn't use them.

422
00:21:31,700 --> 00:21:36,560
And so, luckily, we've kind of, we went through that phase very quickly.

423
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:46,320
And now we're doing a lot of selling back into the lines of business and developers that are looking to move fast and wondering, how can they do that?

424
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:56,160
And then we introduced PCF and then we introduced that to the IT organization and bring them both into the same room together and say, introduce the developers to the IT people and go, we're going to teach you how to go fast.

425
00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:03,140
And are those groups like the business or the lines of business and the IT people?

426
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,020
How do they, how does that relationship go nowadays?

427
00:22:06,300 --> 00:22:10,120
Seems like it would be a little awkward, but like how, is it better than I'm imagining it?

428
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:24,640
Well, as with all answers, it depends on where that company is in their journey down the automation path, right?

429
00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:31,900
Going from, I used to have physical servers I used to hand to developers to, I used to have virtual machines I used to hand to developers to.

430
00:22:32,540 --> 00:22:41,740
I have a cloud infrastructure where developers can do self-service type stuff all the way to, nah, developers don't even get VMs anymore.

431
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:42,820
They get CF push.

432
00:22:43,140 --> 00:22:43,900
Right, right.

433
00:22:43,900 --> 00:23:06,800
And so as an evolutionary thing, right, the interesting thing is, is when we go in, the first part to go back to your original question, the first initial thing we do with customers that have bought PCF for the first time, generally, this is kind of the general path, is we do something we call Platform Dojo.

434
00:23:07,420 --> 00:23:21,220
And that service is really focused on installation, integration, and getting the stack to a usable level so that we can run code on it.

435
00:23:21,540 --> 00:23:23,680
It's generally a four to six week process.

436
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,340
It kind of has about three phases.

437
00:23:27,700 --> 00:23:30,200
There is the actual implementation phase.

438
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:40,260
So, right, we are a predominantly application-focused company, right, from the outside, right, Pivotal Labs, a lot of the app stuff that we do.

439
00:23:41,020 --> 00:23:45,240
However, PCF is shrink-wrapped infrastructure software, right?

440
00:23:45,300 --> 00:23:47,060
I mean, it is ping power and pipe.

441
00:23:47,960 --> 00:24:00,100
It integrates into security and networking and storage and compliance and backup and recovery and monitoring and management and all those things that you have to do in the infrastructure space.

442
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,280
And so, we ensure that we're integrating into that.

443
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:15,160
We then also look at how that fits into their CI, CD tools and their development process, because if it doesn't fit into that, it's not going to get used.

444
00:24:15,820 --> 00:24:19,980
And then we generally like to try to get an app or two up onto the platform.

445
00:24:21,540 --> 00:24:26,360
We throw out the specter of we'd like an app in production.

446
00:24:27,540 --> 00:24:31,200
If you say the word production, people start to kind of freak out a little bit.

447
00:24:31,540 --> 00:24:36,240
And security people come fading in out of the walls when you say production.

448
00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:36,960
Like, wait a minute.

449
00:24:37,300 --> 00:24:40,280
If you're bringing this in production, we have to add some more stuff to it.

450
00:24:40,500 --> 00:24:40,680
Yeah.

451
00:24:40,820 --> 00:24:44,820
Nothing is more deadly than a security person suddenly emerging out of the wall.

452
00:24:45,260 --> 00:24:46,140
That's the way it is.

453
00:24:46,340 --> 00:24:48,540
You want to control the wall emerging.

454
00:24:49,340 --> 00:25:00,420
So, we actually kind of force that so that we force those questions of, well, there's a compliance issue here and there's a test and someone's got to check a box before you move this into production.

455
00:25:00,420 --> 00:25:11,820
And that's when we start having conversations about, well, could we just write a test for that to see if we pass that, then automatically move it to production if we want to, without having to fill out a ticket.

456
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:20,480
So, you talked about those kind of first couple apps that you moved to just kind of flex platforming.

457
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:28,080
Do you sit down and do a real profiling exercise to figure out which of the quote-unquote real apps that then a customer wants to do either follow-up work with us with?

458
00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:30,460
How do they pick those legacy apps to modernize?

459
00:25:30,980 --> 00:25:32,060
So, that's a great question.

460
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:37,340
So, that goes into the second phase of services that we do.

461
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,100
And sometimes we run these things in parallel, right?

462
00:25:39,140 --> 00:25:41,020
So, that doesn't have to be so linear.

463
00:25:42,180 --> 00:25:49,560
But the other thing that we do is to start looking at – think of it as three kind of buckets.

464
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:56,820
And this is always controversial because terms are always conflated, depending on who you're talking to.

465
00:25:57,860 --> 00:26:00,580
There's obviously just net new development work.

466
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,900
Labs is, you know, excellent at it.

467
00:26:03,980 --> 00:26:04,960
We write new applications.

468
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:06,220
It runs on PCF.

469
00:26:07,460 --> 00:26:12,940
The next two kind of get – can get messy and difficult.

470
00:26:12,940 --> 00:26:19,760
One of them we look at is candidates that are – or applications that are candidates for application re-platforming.

471
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,160
You go, okay – and then there's others for the modernization.

472
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,340
You go, okay, what's the difference between re-platforming and modernization in our vernacular?

473
00:26:28,460 --> 00:26:35,240
Re-platforming is generally what we classify as small to medium apps.

474
00:26:35,580 --> 00:26:37,340
What are small to medium apps?

475
00:26:38,740 --> 00:26:45,020
You know, there are things that are, like, less than 5,000 lines of code, less than 20,000 lines of code.

476
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:51,960
Generally, Java, web profile, spring applications are ready.

477
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:59,320
Things that take very minimal code change to move and run on the top of the platform.

478
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,280
And we can go through and identify those relatively quickly.

479
00:27:04,860 --> 00:27:07,020
We can talk more about how we do all that.

480
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:12,160
And then start the process of moving to the platform.

481
00:27:13,500 --> 00:27:20,220
The modernization side of it is when we start getting into the large monoliths, the big things.

482
00:27:20,220 --> 00:27:32,260
So what we call the kind of double XL, triple XL size code that's around lines, you know, 100,000 lines, a million lines of code, a million lines plus.

483
00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:41,700
Things that take a lot more focus to decide on what we're going to attack and what we're not going to attack and move to the platform.

484
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:50,000
That, you know, all of these are done within somewhat of a time-bounded engagement.

485
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:57,620
And it's really about teaching the customer and or partner how to do this work.

486
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,040
Which is the key, because we're not going to be there forever.

487
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:01,840
Right.

488
00:28:02,460 --> 00:28:05,860
And we're trying to get them into the process of doing it themselves.

489
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:07,240
How do we do that?

490
00:28:07,340 --> 00:28:08,300
That's the answer we can drill into.

491
00:28:09,140 --> 00:28:09,360
Yeah.

492
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:11,160
I mean, how do we teach them to fish?

493
00:28:12,660 --> 00:28:13,040
Sure.

494
00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:31,560
So the important thing to note is everything that we do out of my team, which is Pivotal Cloud Foundry Solutions, that's the name of our team, follows the pivotal way in everything we do.

495
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:44,560
So we do inceptions, and we do retros, and we do everything to kind of an extreme programming methodology, same way as labs, same way as R&D.

496
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,560
Interestingly enough, we do this in the platform dojo.

497
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:58,940
And that's a little bit shocking at times, because the people there are used to implementing infrastructure, and that's generally kind of a waterfall-type process.

498
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:04,620
And we go in and start talking about writing stories and Pivotal Tracker and how we're going to move stuff around.

499
00:29:06,020 --> 00:29:10,260
The poor people at our customers show up with Gantt charts, and we go, we don't know what those are.

500
00:29:13,500 --> 00:29:31,560
But after about 150 of these things that we've done in the past couple of years, I can probably say, honestly, 95% or more of the customers, when we're done with that, come back with, that was the greatest experience ever for implementing all this stuff.

501
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:35,540
Just because of the nature of being able to do things in small iterative steps.

502
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,020
And you do that on site, right?

503
00:29:38,100 --> 00:29:42,600
They don't come to us in that case, not like with labs, where we like to bring them in and truly indoctrinate them.

504
00:29:42,660 --> 00:29:44,420
We actually go on site with them to their place, right?

505
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,640
Yeah, we generally go on site most of the time.

506
00:29:47,740 --> 00:29:52,400
A couple of times that we can convincingly come into the offices, we do.

507
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:57,840
That obviously helps us provide a bit more of a hermetically sealed environment.

508
00:29:58,740 --> 00:30:07,500
On site, it gets to be a little difficult at times because there's distractions and easy for backsliding to old habits.

509
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:09,920
But yes, we are generally on site.

510
00:30:11,100 --> 00:30:18,900
And so, you know, across those like buckets of apps, can you give us like a few examples of like applications that you've moved around?

511
00:30:19,100 --> 00:30:20,640
Like what, I don't know.

512
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:26,060
I mean, I feel like I go out and I'm like, oh, you can migrate stuff if it's like packaged and behaves well and is simple.

513
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,620
And then I like quickly change the subject because I don't have good examples.

514
00:30:30,180 --> 00:30:35,620
But so it would be good to hear like what actual, you know, ideas of those kinds of applications are.

515
00:30:37,060 --> 00:30:43,080
Yeah, so as I was saying, I mean, like most of our applications are in the Java world.

516
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:44,860
We're getting more and more in the .NET world.

517
00:30:46,260 --> 00:31:02,460
Some of the smaller apps can be services or, you know, connectors or all kinds of little things that are out there that we can look at them and say, well, I guess it'd be easier to walk through a little bit more of how we handle like the app and platforming side of it.

518
00:31:02,660 --> 00:31:16,920
What will happen is, is we will provide a kind of rough outline of what types of apps the customer should be looking at.

519
00:31:17,300 --> 00:31:28,800
And we're generally looking where the line of business, that line of business will work with them to ensure that we're kind of picking the right apps based on, you know, three general parameters.

520
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,640
Like, you know, what is the business need and criticality of this app?

521
00:31:33,020 --> 00:31:35,080
What is the economic cost?

522
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:43,400
Like, you know, how much do you want to time to market kind of implementation, you know, aspects of it?

523
00:31:43,460 --> 00:31:45,420
And then, like, what is the technical aspects of it?

524
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:50,000
Like, what is the code base and, you know, how hard, you know, how hard is it into the file system and whatnot?

525
00:31:50,800 --> 00:32:00,880
And from that, we work with the architects at the customer within that line of business, and we may identify 100 applications.

526
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:07,160
And we try to go through and say, look, let's not identify 100 applications that all have the exact same pattern.

527
00:32:07,660 --> 00:32:10,720
Let's try to pick some things that are different, right?

528
00:32:10,820 --> 00:32:15,920
Different web profile or, you know, we try to stay with full profile right away.

529
00:32:16,460 --> 00:32:18,240
Do they have any spring applications?

530
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:26,720
You know, what do they have in their environments that allow us a good cross-section of the types of applications that represent the rest of them?

531
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,520
Because a lot of times customers come and go, we've got 5,000 job apps.

532
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:34,180
And we're like, okay, well, let's get a representation of those we want to go after.

533
00:32:34,180 --> 00:32:44,200
And then once we kind of hit that, we'll go through something that we – and this is – the process is we do a scoping.

534
00:32:44,580 --> 00:32:49,940
We do kind of an iteration zero that lets us understand what their environment looks like and how they're set up.

535
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:50,900
Like, what tools do they have?

536
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:51,860
What infrastructure do they have?

537
00:32:52,420 --> 00:32:56,720
What CICD tools they already have in place?

538
00:32:56,940 --> 00:32:59,320
How do they – you know, what is their code repositories?

539
00:32:59,920 --> 00:33:03,080
You know, just so that we know a lot about their environment before we get there, right?

540
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:13,940
And then we start handing out, like, here's the, you know, the applications that we want to look at, Java E, web profiles, full profiles, spring apps, non-Java apps, you know, anything, right?

541
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,440
.NET, Node.js, JavaScript.

542
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:38,940
We kind of ask for the kitchen sink, and we narrow it down to – let's call it 100 apps, and then from there, we'll narrow it down to a representation of anywhere from 10 to 30 apps or so that we'll then do a snap analysis on for each of those apps.

543
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:40,140
It takes about a half hour per app.

544
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:46,380
And then with that, we actually kind of go through a laundry list of questions, right?

545
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:52,280
You know, how is the configuration handled within the application?

546
00:33:52,420 --> 00:33:52,980
What's the login?

547
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:53,780
What's the SLAs?

548
00:33:53,860 --> 00:33:55,440
How is it packaged and built?

549
00:33:55,580 --> 00:33:57,360
Is there a CICD in place?

550
00:33:58,740 --> 00:34:02,500
You know, what is the app server that it's running on?

551
00:34:03,820 --> 00:34:06,960
You know, what is some of the statefulness of it?

552
00:34:07,780 --> 00:34:09,560
All of this, like, a laundry list of questions.

553
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,380
We have a data sheet to kind of collect these things on really quickly.

554
00:34:12,700 --> 00:34:22,160
And then from that, we can quickly kind of score each one of them and then decide from there, say, okay, we think we can, like, start with these 10 apps.

555
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:39,420
And when we're talking about that level of complexity, we've seen in the past we've moved about 10 to 12 apps in 10 weeks where we've gotten fully up on the platform and running in the same process or, you know, in the same performance and way that they were before.

556
00:34:39,780 --> 00:34:44,120
The benefit now is, obviously, as we're moving into the platform, we're writing a lot of tests.

557
00:34:45,220 --> 00:34:48,420
We're ensuring that we're starting to instrument those things better.

558
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,860
And we're getting the customers able to start, you know, changing those apps.

559
00:34:53,940 --> 00:34:58,580
The whole point of this is so they can change those apps quickly and reiterate on them and keep them running on the platform.

560
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:06,540
So what are, like, some typical changes that you need to make for, like, these 10 apps you find initially?

561
00:35:06,720 --> 00:35:06,820
Right.

562
00:35:08,100 --> 00:35:11,300
So it's taken its config from the app server.

563
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:15,280
We got to point it to, right, the spring config server.

564
00:35:16,020 --> 00:35:17,520
Or it's logging to disk.

565
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:19,140
We want it to log to out.

566
00:35:20,060 --> 00:35:20,260
Right.

567
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,740
You know, persistent file system access.

568
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,200
Do we need that, like, what does that mean and what does it look like?

569
00:35:27,300 --> 00:35:27,480
Right.

570
00:35:28,380 --> 00:35:31,240
Have they even written any tests around these apps?

571
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:32,180
Right.

572
00:35:32,180 --> 00:35:36,000
So some of these are tests around code and then their interactions.

573
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:41,740
And then some of these things are tests that we write around deployment.

574
00:35:41,940 --> 00:35:46,040
So we kind of riff on the test-driven development and test-driven deployment as well.

575
00:35:46,820 --> 00:35:53,440
So the key out of this is what we wind up doing with the customer is we write cookbooks.

576
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,140
And within those cookbooks, we have recipes.

577
00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:06,480
And those recipes are snippets of code that we write with the customer that they can reuse across other applications of similar ilk.

578
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:07,400
Right.

579
00:36:07,500 --> 00:36:15,460
So if there's a way of us saying, like, well, okay, we found a way of pointing to a new spring config server.

580
00:36:16,100 --> 00:36:21,620
And this is how we're changing the Java EE config to get it at runtime by pointing at this config server.

581
00:36:21,980 --> 00:36:22,140
Right.

582
00:36:22,340 --> 00:36:23,820
And it's a little snippet of code to do that.

583
00:36:23,940 --> 00:36:24,480
It's a recipe.

584
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,880
So when you run into other applications like this, you don't have to rewrite.

585
00:36:28,020 --> 00:36:28,980
You can just go back to the recipe.

586
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:30,240
Right.

587
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:31,160
You can start from there.

588
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,320
So we teach them how to start doing those different things.

589
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,920
And then that's kind of the app re-platforming phase.

590
00:36:40,380 --> 00:36:43,500
And we've seen, like I said, about 10 weeks, we can do about 10 to 12 apps.

591
00:36:44,380 --> 00:36:49,460
But once again, it's really teaching them so that when we leave, they keep that flywheel going.

592
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:57,920
Do you see that, you know, how do we make sure that we don't accidentally add more complexity than they thought they could handle?

593
00:36:58,020 --> 00:36:58,120
Right.

594
00:36:58,140 --> 00:37:01,860
You take a monolith that maybe is brittle, doesn't scale well, but it worked.

595
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,000
And then we tease it into 10 microservices.

596
00:37:04,180 --> 00:37:05,200
We add CI, CD.

597
00:37:05,380 --> 00:37:06,580
We add some backing databases.

598
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:07,880
More moving parts.

599
00:37:07,940 --> 00:37:10,060
How do we make sure that their operational cost doesn't go up?

600
00:37:11,340 --> 00:37:12,240
So that's a good question.

601
00:37:13,140 --> 00:37:17,340
And it starts to, there's a lot of factors that go into that.

602
00:37:18,020 --> 00:37:24,460
And one thing that's important to note, I think microservices becomes a term that we throw around a lot.

603
00:37:25,460 --> 00:37:28,460
You don't have to use microservices to use PCF.

604
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,300
You don't have to necessarily break things into that.

605
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,520
Some of these applications just move and max.

606
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:36,500
And you don't have to break them apart at all.

607
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:45,040
And moving them up there because now you're hitting a lot of other factors like, oh, I don't have to use WebLogic or WebSphere anymore.

608
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:50,100
I'm doing standardization around my runtime environment and my build packs.

609
00:37:50,580 --> 00:37:53,700
And I'm able to iterate on the platform and blue-green deployments are easier.

610
00:37:53,980 --> 00:38:01,880
And I can change the blue button on the interface to green whenever I want to and back without having to do massive QA because I've written tests around this.

611
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,060
So there's a lot of efficiency that's driven out of that.

612
00:38:05,540 --> 00:38:13,760
Talking about addressing your question kind of goes back into the app modernization side of this.

613
00:38:15,260 --> 00:38:18,000
With that, we've done some really great work.

614
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,560
There's some insurance companies that we've done some awesome work around this.

615
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,580
They have an application that they wanted us to attack.

616
00:38:25,720 --> 00:38:30,060
We did an app re-platforming for them and moved a bunch of code.

617
00:38:31,100 --> 00:38:33,380
10 apps in 10 weeks, I think, that was the case there.

618
00:38:33,380 --> 00:38:45,540
They really fell in love with the process and said, okay, we've got this massive system that's used to essentially write insurance policies for people.

619
00:38:46,660 --> 00:38:50,640
It's about six years old, and it's about five million lines of code.

620
00:38:52,020 --> 00:38:53,380
And it's a nightmare.

621
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:55,620
And we can't update it quickly.

622
00:38:55,820 --> 00:39:10,720
We have to figure out how to attack the parts we want to be able to change quickly without doing what you said, which was kind of crushing ourselves with adding additional complexity.

623
00:39:11,580 --> 00:39:23,240
And interestingly enough, a bunch of people on the team, you know, Joe Soprid and Rohit and Dan Frey and Dave Transky and a bunch of guys,

624
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:38,160
they actually decided to, in this case, for this big monolith, they kind of came back and said, well, you know, let's look back on some of the techniques that have been used in the industry around domain-driven design.

625
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:48,380
And let's actually attack this through essentially an event-storming type of process.

626
00:39:49,420 --> 00:39:51,460
So it was really interesting.

627
00:39:51,960 --> 00:40:04,820
We brought together people from all parts of the company, from IT to developers to VPs over lines of businesses.

628
00:40:06,240 --> 00:40:09,840
There was probably 20, 25 people in the room for a full day.

629
00:40:10,620 --> 00:40:15,220
And we walked through with a lot of sticky notes and just started putting stickies on the board.

630
00:40:15,220 --> 00:40:18,660
Like, when somebody writes an insurance policy, what happens in this system?

631
00:40:18,980 --> 00:40:20,080
And they started walking through it.

632
00:40:20,140 --> 00:40:23,780
And there were kind of, oh, crap moments of, wow, that's a big problem.

633
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:24,920
Put a red sticky there.

634
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:32,500
And as all that stuff started to happen, what was noticed was is there were natural bounded contexts that were created.

635
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:36,100
And it just kind of organically happened.

636
00:40:36,100 --> 00:40:50,540
And we saw kind of the domain events in the bounded contexts and the context of connecting the bounded contexts just naturally evolve on this giant whiteboard full of stickies.

637
00:40:51,680 --> 00:41:10,860
And from that, people started to narrow down farther and farther what were really some of the problem areas that we wanted to attack where we had different, I guess, parameters you could put around it is we really want to be able to massively change this part of the system.

638
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:20,800
And we believe that if we start attacking these and moving these parts to Cloud Foundry, that's going to be our biggest way of starting to break apart this monolith.

639
00:41:21,620 --> 00:41:23,380
So, I mean, I like that.

640
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:29,160
I mean, you're tackling this more from, again, the bounded context of the domain versus saying, let's modernize the UI first.

641
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:30,280
Then let's tackle middleware.

642
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,980
Are you seeing it more as trying to do it by function versus just strict application layer?

643
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:44,980
Yes, it's more by the function where they find the greatest kind of bang for the buck or where they've had the hardest problem of we really do want to change these areas.

644
00:41:45,580 --> 00:41:50,200
And we haven't been able to do it without touching too much of the system.

645
00:41:50,380 --> 00:41:52,060
Like, how do we separate that stuff out?

646
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,740
And what we eventually came up with, like, 10 MVPs, right?

647
00:41:56,180 --> 00:42:00,280
And I think we broke it down into three that we started with.

648
00:42:00,580 --> 00:42:09,900
And in that process, we then went back into our normal, with those 10 MVPs, we went back to our snap analysis then.

649
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:19,320
So instead of where we can start with a small app and kind of do a snap analysis around all the particulars of that app and how to move it or not move it to PCF,

650
00:42:19,500 --> 00:42:30,400
we had to go through this event storming to get down to a bunch of MVPs that we could kind of treat like small apps to then do snap analysis to then figure out which ones we were going to move the platform.

651
00:42:30,580 --> 00:42:33,240
But all of this took, like, a couple of days.

652
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:35,260
And then we were writing code.

653
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:41,680
And at that point, even if for some reason the funding ran out after you did three of them, you still added value.

654
00:42:41,780 --> 00:42:42,820
You don't have a half-finished app.

655
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:43,900
No, no, no.

656
00:42:43,900 --> 00:42:44,180
Yeah, yeah.

657
00:42:44,180 --> 00:42:47,200
So whatever we've moved is still functioning, right?

658
00:42:47,240 --> 00:42:47,500
Exactly.

659
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:48,060
It's still running.

660
00:42:48,220 --> 00:42:50,340
It's just now you've broken out small pieces of it.

661
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,560
And now the customer can look back and go, well, is that enough?

662
00:42:54,620 --> 00:42:57,140
Is this where we want to be and we don't want to touch any more of this?

663
00:42:57,700 --> 00:43:01,200
Or do we want to go through the next level and keep working?

664
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,400
Because there will be some pieces of that they'll never touch, right?

665
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,460
It'll just continue to run where it is.

666
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:08,000
And they don't make huge changes.

667
00:43:08,060 --> 00:43:09,080
And it runs just fine.

668
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:10,980
And there's no reason to move it.

669
00:43:11,780 --> 00:43:12,180
Yep.

670
00:43:12,340 --> 00:43:13,360
That's an important designation.

671
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:18,940
So is the phrase snap analysis, does, like, snap stand for something?

672
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,760
Or do you just mean, like, quick, like the colloquialism?

673
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:23,300
Like a snap judgment.

674
00:43:23,620 --> 00:43:23,900
All right.

675
00:43:24,140 --> 00:43:24,520
Fair enough.

676
00:43:24,740 --> 00:43:26,360
Yeah, it's a snap judgment.

677
00:43:26,740 --> 00:43:33,300
It literally goes through and looks at, you know, what are the versions of the APIs in use, right?

678
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,240
So Java, Java EE, J2EE, Spring Framework.

679
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:36,720
Okay.

680
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:37,880
Check, right?

681
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:39,480
Is there external integrations?

682
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:41,320
What are the databases, caching, messaging queues?

683
00:43:41,380 --> 00:43:42,220
What are the other things we use?

684
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:42,460
Okay.

685
00:43:42,720 --> 00:43:46,040
That's, you know, that app needs RabbitMQ or whatever, right?

686
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:51,800
And we just kind of go through a checklist of things to look at the app and what it touches

687
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,540
and what its external needs are and internal needs are.

688
00:43:55,680 --> 00:44:00,820
And if they, if we see some that are, we have to weigh back and forth and say, well, how important

689
00:44:00,820 --> 00:44:05,580
is it to modernize this application or for this piece of it versus the complexity?

690
00:44:06,100 --> 00:44:06,220
All right.

691
00:44:06,260 --> 00:44:10,760
So it's sort of like a, whether it's standardized or kind of informally done, like a checklist,

692
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:14,060
like when you go see a doctor and they're sort of like go through a checklist of things

693
00:44:14,060 --> 00:44:14,800
to see if something.

694
00:44:15,060 --> 00:44:19,040
Check the weight, check the blood pressure, check the glucose.

695
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:23,440
Well, this, this I think is a major to do for the marketing side of the house is we need

696
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,580
to come up with something that SNAP stands for.

697
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:29,360
I think we should maybe, maybe good KPI in three to five years.

698
00:44:29,460 --> 00:44:33,860
There should be a Wikipedia article that describes this concept of SNAP analysis.

699
00:44:33,980 --> 00:44:38,320
I'm pretty sure the S should stand for software, but the rest of it, I don't know.

700
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:43,660
Maybe, maybe P is process and then you just got the NA in there, but we'll, we'll figure

701
00:44:43,660 --> 00:44:44,100
it out.

702
00:44:44,460 --> 00:44:50,240
That's a, so the, uh, before we close out, like there's, there's a, um, I don't know,

703
00:44:50,240 --> 00:44:54,940
there's a couple of like abstract pivotal concepts that, that, that you've touched on

704
00:44:54,940 --> 00:44:58,740
that I want to, uh, I want, I want to statement question you with, so to speak.

705
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:03,860
Um, and one of them, you were kind of, um, you're alluding to this or, or touching on

706
00:45:03,860 --> 00:45:06,980
it in, in the, the approach that we have.

707
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:11,860
And, and, and I don't know, a non-snarky way of putting it, but it seems like a lot of

708
00:45:11,860 --> 00:45:15,980
what we do at Pivotal is sort of forcing people to learn a new way of doing things.

709
00:45:16,260 --> 00:45:16,660
Right.

710
00:45:16,720 --> 00:45:21,920
And, and this, you know, going over the analysis of things to do quickly, it sort

711
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:27,100
of says like, instead of getting stuck in some analysis paralysis of stuff and analyzing and

712
00:45:27,100 --> 00:45:31,900
writing some report, you should just start doing things, you know, obviously in a rational

713
00:45:31,900 --> 00:45:33,640
way that we've been talking about this whole time.

714
00:45:34,020 --> 00:45:38,240
But, but, but I'm curious one, like, I mean, is that something you consciously do?

715
00:45:38,300 --> 00:45:40,020
Like we should start doing things really quickly.

716
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:44,880
And then like, does that, uh, do people, are people resistant to that?

717
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,740
Or do you just kind of like take them along without them knowing that, that we're doing

718
00:45:48,740 --> 00:45:48,960
it?

719
00:45:50,380 --> 00:45:52,000
So that's a really good question.

720
00:45:52,900 --> 00:45:59,600
And what we've seen is, uh, we have to be careful and I, and I catch myself and I make

721
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:00,680
sure that I'm careful on this.

722
00:46:00,740 --> 00:46:05,360
I was just at a customer and we were having this conversation to not trivialize the complexity

723
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:08,260
of their environment by saying, oh, come on, let's just get started.

724
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:09,320
Let's just start banging on some code.

725
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:09,740
No problem.

726
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:10,120
Right.

727
00:46:10,220 --> 00:46:10,340
Yeah.

728
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:10,500
Yeah.

729
00:46:10,500 --> 00:46:13,060
That's, that's, that's a, that's a good point about how you position it.

730
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,880
That could, that could, that could, and it's, and it's not that, right.

731
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:23,540
So, so we're very conscious of the, um, the complexity of the environment.

732
00:46:24,260 --> 00:46:29,840
Uh, and we're, and we're also very conscious of not, you know, for looking out for the,

733
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:32,380
as the term goes right, yak shaving, right.

734
00:46:33,060 --> 00:46:37,980
Um, and, and, and the, the regression of, well, if we do this, we gotta do this and we

735
00:46:37,980 --> 00:46:38,860
gotta do this and we gotta do this.

736
00:46:39,660 --> 00:46:45,500
Um, so, but what we, what we have found is as we're taking people through this, like going

737
00:46:45,500 --> 00:46:50,540
through this event storming, like looking at this one system, that's 5 million lines of

738
00:46:50,540 --> 00:46:50,720
code.

739
00:46:50,780 --> 00:46:51,020
Right.

740
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:56,760
And everybody, there's not a single person in the company that can answer all the questions

741
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:57,420
about the system.

742
00:46:58,220 --> 00:47:03,780
So walking people through and having them say, well, what happens next?

743
00:47:03,780 --> 00:47:04,940
And what, where's this touch?

744
00:47:04,940 --> 00:47:10,120
And who knows if different people in the room kind of move around and, and start putting

745
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:11,160
these stickies on the board.

746
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:15,140
Then you see people looking at each other going like, oh, I didn't realize that you knew about

747
00:47:15,140 --> 00:47:15,460
that.

748
00:47:15,500 --> 00:47:16,520
And what about this over here?

749
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:18,660
And all of a sudden there's a larger conversation that happens.

750
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:26,560
And then out of that, uh, we start to go through, through and break it into characteristics and

751
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:29,760
then write user stories, metrics, and kind of describe risks.

752
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:35,560
And as we're going through that process, people start to realize, oh, wait a minute, we're

753
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:40,640
not trying to do an analysis paralysis here where somebody has got to come in and figure out

754
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:41,940
how to pull the spiderweb apart.

755
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,040
We're breaking this stuff down into kind of smaller chunks.

756
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:49,820
And then we're introducing the, yes, and then we can act on those smaller chunks and we

757
00:47:49,820 --> 00:47:51,140
can start reordering these things.

758
00:47:51,500 --> 00:47:56,280
So when we say we start working very quickly, it's not in a haphazard way.

759
00:47:56,360 --> 00:47:57,940
It's in a very structured way.

760
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:03,440
It's just that we're taking small baby steps in each of those.

761
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:11,980
And what naturally happens over time is people start to, the anxiety of making a decision goes

762
00:48:11,980 --> 00:48:12,420
down.

763
00:48:13,740 --> 00:48:15,700
Because that's an interesting result.

764
00:48:16,900 --> 00:48:17,300
Yeah.

765
00:48:17,380 --> 00:48:20,680
I can back out of this and I'm not losing four weeks of work here.

766
00:48:21,740 --> 00:48:25,720
And so people then become more comfortable with taking smaller steps and smaller steps and

767
00:48:25,720 --> 00:48:26,040
smaller steps.

768
00:48:26,100 --> 00:48:33,000
And you start getting that, that, uh, acceleration of the work being done because it's easy to

769
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:33,460
back out.

770
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:37,120
And then that is very much kind of the pivotal way, right?

771
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:40,960
We iterate, we break things into stories, we break problems into very small chunks.

772
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:42,360
We work on that small chunk.

773
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:44,040
If it doesn't work, fine, throw it away.

774
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:44,960
It's not a big loss.

775
00:48:45,060 --> 00:48:45,820
It was a couple hours.

776
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:46,840
Yeah.

777
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:47,700
No, that's interesting.

778
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:51,400
I, you know, I, I was, uh, I was doing a lot of laundry this weekend and I was, I was

779
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:53,820
trying to test out big batch versus small batch thinking.

780
00:48:54,060 --> 00:48:54,300
Right.

781
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:58,440
And, uh, you know, we got a two story house and so I would like do one basket of laundry

782
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,060
and then go upstairs and put it away sort of a small batch.

783
00:49:01,340 --> 00:49:05,520
And I, and I kept thinking like, wow, this is getting me a lot of exercise.

784
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:07,400
I think this batch might be too small.

785
00:49:07,860 --> 00:49:12,520
And, and, and, and I was thinking like, there must be some interesting intersection of curves

786
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:15,940
where you find out the optimal, I don't know what the characteristics that drive it are,

787
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:19,520
but you find the optimal amount of batch size, so to speak.

788
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:25,440
And, um, and I suspect, I mean, being less laundry oriented laundry ops, as it were, I

789
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:30,580
suspect part of the process that, that y'all go through is that in each organization, it

790
00:49:30,580 --> 00:49:31,220
depends, right?

791
00:49:31,220 --> 00:49:35,560
There's all different parameters about how you optimize the batch, but you know, the interesting

792
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:38,600
aspect, uh, it's sort of like turtles all the way down.

793
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:42,820
I mean, this gets to the second point is, um, you know, it's almost like, so you, you

794
00:49:42,820 --> 00:49:46,460
introduce this learning organization, this learning organization thing, and you're kind of forcing

795
00:49:46,460 --> 00:49:50,700
it through, as you're saying, narrowing the, the batches down.

796
00:49:50,820 --> 00:49:54,480
And there's another interesting aspect that I've noticed is sort of key to pivotal engagements,

797
00:49:54,480 --> 00:50:02,280
which is, um, all training results in actual business value, which is to say, it's like on

798
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:06,700
the job training where you're actually doing something that is actually shipped to, to the

799
00:50:06,700 --> 00:50:11,540
business, which is, and I think a lot of that comes through the way that, that we pair with

800
00:50:11,540 --> 00:50:14,140
people, as you were saying, from programming to your work.

801
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:18,600
But it's almost like one of the goals is like any training that we do shouldn't result in

802
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:20,340
some sort of BS project.

803
00:50:20,500 --> 00:50:22,360
It should actually be a real thing.

804
00:50:22,780 --> 00:50:26,980
And, uh, those, those two things together have some interesting, uh, quick results to

805
00:50:26,980 --> 00:50:28,660
how, how you go about doing things.

806
00:50:28,980 --> 00:50:34,460
So that's probably one of the biggest takeaways you hit right there that, that we try to drive

807
00:50:34,460 --> 00:50:41,320
into our customers is when we show up, we, we're very explicit about, we have to pair, we have

808
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:43,120
to pair with you or we're not.

809
00:50:43,460 --> 00:50:47,220
I mean, there's that time we've actually kind of slowed the project down and said, your people

810
00:50:47,220 --> 00:50:47,720
aren't here.

811
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:51,140
We have to pair with you for a reason.

812
00:50:51,240 --> 00:50:52,680
There's a reason why we're doing this.

813
00:50:53,200 --> 00:51:00,360
And, um, and, and we actually don't, we call our services enablement services, uh, for that

814
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:01,500
exact reason, right?

815
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:06,040
For us to install PCF only takes a couple of three days, but we'll be there for four or

816
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:11,240
five weeks because we're trying to pair with their ops people to do operations enablement.

817
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:18,160
Um, same thing around rapid platforming and, uh, to the point where we actually at times

818
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:22,880
now interview people at the customer to work with, to pair with, right.

819
00:51:23,460 --> 00:51:27,540
Uh, to ensure that, that they're dedicated and they're going to actually work with us and

820
00:51:27,540 --> 00:51:28,100
pair with us.

821
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:35,260
And so, uh, you know, you don't have to do things the pivotal way to be successful or to

822
00:51:35,260 --> 00:51:41,080
use PCF, but we as pivotal have an opinion around this.

823
00:51:41,140 --> 00:51:47,760
What, what has worked well for us and we, we are showing our customers and including our

824
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:54,940
customers in this, uh, and, and more times than not, they're, they're welcoming the change

825
00:51:54,940 --> 00:52:01,240
and, and seeing value out of it, both on the application side and the operation side.

826
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:08,840
And so we're trying to bring that modern, um, cloud native blue, green, deploy, treat everything

827
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:15,460
as, you know, something you test then run, uh, or deploy across both operations and applications.

828
00:52:16,460 --> 00:52:16,860
Yeah.

829
00:52:17,460 --> 00:52:18,680
No, that makes sense.

830
00:52:18,780 --> 00:52:21,040
Well, uh, thanks for being on.

831
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:21,840
This is good stuff.

832
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:23,520
It was like hitting on exactly what I wanted.

833
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:28,600
I think, I think, um, we, uh, this is sort of, I don't know if it's the number one.

834
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:32,380
And I mean, all the things people talk about are number one, but it's definitely one of the huge

835
00:52:32,380 --> 00:52:38,220
topics, uh, that, that are sort of overall pivotal community talks about, you know, as, as I'm fond

836
00:52:38,220 --> 00:52:41,840
of joking, like legacy it is the stuff that makes all the money.

837
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:46,400
So it's, it's important to figure out not only getting started with new things, but like how

838
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:51,480
to, how to work with your existing, uh, I don't know, corpus of applications.

839
00:52:52,020 --> 00:52:56,620
So, uh, it's, it's been a nice like way to add in kind of a, uh, I don't know, like a qualitative

840
00:52:56,620 --> 00:52:57,000
way.

841
00:52:57,040 --> 00:52:58,180
Like, what does it all feel like?

842
00:52:58,200 --> 00:52:58,920
What does it look like?

843
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:02,800
And, and I think, I think the other part that's always that you discover with a lot of

844
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:07,620
like, uh, agilely DevOps stuff, as you were alluding to just a few minutes ago is like,

845
00:53:07,620 --> 00:53:09,960
there's actually a tremendous amount of discipline to this.

846
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:14,660
It may look a little weird from the outside, but it's very programmatic and, and, and time

847
00:53:14,660 --> 00:53:19,720
worn and checklisted and it's got the patina of success on it or patina, depending on how

848
00:53:19,720 --> 00:53:20,700
you like to pronounce it.

849
00:53:20,820 --> 00:53:21,680
It does.

850
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:30,580
And I think that's where the, uh, the, the misconception of we come in and do things fast

851
00:53:30,580 --> 00:53:33,420
doesn't mean it's undisciplined and chaotic.

852
00:53:33,420 --> 00:53:35,620
It's actually very disciplined.

853
00:53:36,420 --> 00:53:38,140
It's just done differently.

854
00:53:39,300 --> 00:53:39,700
Yeah.

855
00:53:39,980 --> 00:53:40,180
Yeah.

856
00:53:40,220 --> 00:53:44,200
I think anyone who's tried to cook a perfect omelet knows you can do things quickly that

857
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:47,860
come at their high quality and awesome, but it takes a lot of difficult skills.

858
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,080
It was very hard to make a really good omelet quickly.

859
00:53:50,740 --> 00:53:54,080
So, uh, so if people want to follow up with you, I mean, do you got a, you got a Twitter

860
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:54,580
account?

861
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:55,700
Are you in Snapchat?

862
00:53:56,020 --> 00:53:57,360
Maybe they can send you a snap.

863
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:00,580
Where should, where should people go if they want to see what you're up to?

864
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:00,920
Do you know?

865
00:54:02,260 --> 00:54:11,900
So, uh, internally Slack is always a place to catch me, um, uh, and, or, uh, email is

866
00:54:11,900 --> 00:54:13,340
generally the best place to get me.

867
00:54:13,420 --> 00:54:14,420
Dino, Dino C.

868
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:16,700
You got a fancy one.

869
00:54:16,780 --> 00:54:20,720
Usually it's, it's first letter of a name, last name, but no, no, no.

870
00:54:21,500 --> 00:54:22,100
I don't know.

871
00:54:22,140 --> 00:54:23,380
You got Coté at Pivotal.

872
00:54:23,500 --> 00:54:24,740
So I'm just planning about that.

873
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:28,840
Well, you know, I find, I find the secret to a good email address is just ask.

874
00:54:29,740 --> 00:54:30,140
Yeah.

875
00:54:30,580 --> 00:54:30,940
Yeah.

876
00:54:31,060 --> 00:54:33,440
I, that, I got through that already.

877
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:39,820
And mine was, uh, uh, I, I called foul because my, my, my other one, my, the real one that's

878
00:54:39,820 --> 00:54:42,200
there, it's not my alias is D Cicerelli.

879
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:44,500
I said 13 characters.

880
00:54:44,500 --> 00:54:48,720
I think is a, there's gotta be a limit to the, right.

881
00:54:48,940 --> 00:54:50,340
Punix used to be eight, right?

882
00:54:50,420 --> 00:54:51,760
You can only have eight characters.

883
00:54:51,860 --> 00:54:52,220
That's right.

884
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:56,320
And you can, uh, 13 got to be a bit much.

885
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:57,200
So I got Dino C.

886
00:54:57,580 --> 00:54:58,100
There you go.

887
00:54:58,200 --> 00:54:58,960
Well, that's fantastic.

888
00:54:59,100 --> 00:55:01,860
Well, as always, this has been Pivotal Conversations.

889
00:55:02,020 --> 00:55:06,760
If you want to, uh, check out the show notes for this episode, you can go to pivotal.io

890
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:07,780
slash podcast.

891
00:55:08,300 --> 00:55:12,880
Uh, you can also, uh, if you want to see this episode and past ones and, and find the

892
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:17,940
RSS feed to subscribe to it, which you should, you should go to soundcloud.com slash pivotal

893
00:55:17,940 --> 00:55:18,660
conversations.

894
00:55:19,100 --> 00:55:22,880
And what you should do also, if you liked this episode, I was just looking at our stats earlier.

895
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:25,460
We had a lot of people who listened to us in overcast.

896
00:55:25,540 --> 00:55:27,540
You should go in there and hit the little recommend star.

897
00:55:27,740 --> 00:55:29,280
I have no idea what that does.

898
00:55:29,380 --> 00:55:32,040
I don't think it's actually very effective, but it's fun to talk about it.

899
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:36,560
It'd also be good if you went into iTunes and left us a review or even a star rating.

900
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:38,120
Would it kill you to do that?

901
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:39,000
It's pretty easy.

902
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:42,100
And, uh, as always, if you want to share it with people, that's nice.

903
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:46,880
Basically Richard and I, and our weekly guests like talking with each other, but it's also

904
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:49,420
nice to know that, uh, other things are happening out there.

905
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:52,140
And with that, we'll see everyone next time.

906
00:55:52,300 --> 00:55:52,900
Bye-bye.