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well hello everybody it's another Pivotal Conversations podcast you know i've been

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i've been traveling to san francisco the week for the annual team kickoff meeting i know i know that

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richard had his annual team kickoff meeting i think the uh the uh the week before that so we

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did this this thing have you ever done one of these richard we as a team building exercise

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nominally we went to a uh a cooking school thing where like you cook i gotta be honest i was kind

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of like you know what i would rather do go to a restaurant but i think uh i think it turned out

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all right i like it i'm glad we went there i learned i learned a few skills i think the problem

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with stuff like this with me is that like when confronted by an expert i i don't like to uh be

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a student for as much as i talk about like needing to learn to change and all of that like uh that's

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not for me i'm too old for that but i think uh i think it turned out well i got some tips on knives

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on cooking chicken and we made uh we made a curry from scratch it's delicious you ever do one of

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those i have done one of those as a uh date night before with my with my lovely wife so that's those

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things are are fun i uh you know our team building we went bowling and anytime i can stick my fingers

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into other people's uh weird bowling balls and get hepatitis or something you gotta you gotta take it

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man i wasn't sure where you're gonna go with that little speech there turned out well i had to

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quickly repivot that that was important to uh end in the right place how about how about your well

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first why don't you just briefly introduce yourself guest hi i'm john feminella uh i'm a pivotal

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employee like michael and richard and i work in the platform architecture group and mostly what that

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means is that i get to help customers with really difficult problems um specifically in enterprises

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figure out what those really hard problems are and how maybe pivotal can help them solve it now

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speaking of hard problems have you ever been to one of these cooking classes i actually have not been

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to a cooking class before but i tried to keep up on my culinary education by watching a lot of

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gordon ramsay youtube videos oh sure screaming at people which i feel like i'm learning by osmosis

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through some extent there but so you have a lot of opinions on cooking like steak and drapes yeah

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exactly i used to love that show the first time it came out hell's kitchen that was fun i don't it's

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like the only reality tv show i ever watched well i'm a little ashamed to admit this but actually

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the favorite my favorite gordon ramsay videos are two kinds so there's one where uh there's something

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they call master class uh junior or i'm sorry master chef junior where he is running effectively a game

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show with these um but these people would otherwise be chefs that's regular master chef but master chef

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junior is the same thing with like basically elementary and middle school kids that are like 9 10 11 years

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old and what's amazing is he doesn't yell at them because he knows that like he has totally different

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expectations about the kids and he's like really loving and supportive and then you see exactly the

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same show and exactly the same format but with people who have been like cooking for 10 or 15 years

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and he's just like furious with them when they don't make a souffle correctly i mean there's a

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non-zero percent of the population that kind of wishes he screamed at the kids right

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that's just me all right that's right now i've been i've been thinking in these you know

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to to to to pivot around from a bad conversation again like in the in these in these weird times

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of ours there's not enough podcasts that are sort of like the uh that cover the full spectrum of

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opinion and that would be a good name for it a uh non non-zero percentage or whatever it's sort of

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like it's it's that's that would be a funny name for the there are some people who believe this

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and you could hear hear what they they think so speaking of things that uh people believe

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there's really no segue off of that but uh i think i think there were some actual accounting

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facts put out this week now i haven't looked at all of the uh the earning summary i've seen the

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the sort of headline stuff for it but we had uh we had do we have to say alphabet can we just say

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google i feel like yeah i hate saying opposite i feel like that's some sort of like brainwashing

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that i don't want to participate but whatever so so the google holding company ghc uh c came out with

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their numbers i didn't really i saw one headline that there was some hidden like a multi-hundred

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dollar thing and some research thing that as the headline said and wall street is fine with it

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but that's good like i think uh they potentially if i looked at these kind of things would be an

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interesting company because of the way they hold the company their stuff out and looks like

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microsoft came out vmware i don't know what's what's your overall take on uh earning season so

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far richard yeah google did well which was nice microsoft had like a 90 increase in azure stuff

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which seems like a good percentage when you're already probably measuring in the billions

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so you know cloud stuff not shockingly continues to grow alphabet slash google's doing well i thought

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the vmware one i included was interesting since they have kind of righted the ship a little bit

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on software that it's kind of hit a good steady place in nsx their networking stack

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is on pace to be an x billion dollar business for them so they're doing a good job on software

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revenues and i think diversifying in a nice way i think their ceo even said this was one of their

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more more balanced quarters in a while so either way it's just it's cool to see when the old guard

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can continue to reinvent themselves and not necessarily just kind of flail around well let me let me let me

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let me ask this of uh of our guest here so when you're when you're uh you know out and about there

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farting around with the the large organizations doing stuff like how much how much like vmware stuff do

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you see yeah i mean it really depends on the client right because everybody's got a different mix of

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different things but it's certainly an established name and it's certainly um you know certainly a name

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people have heard of as opposed to say alphabet uh it's a relatively new brand and people are still

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being like well that's really google right nobody wants to call it alphabet yet uh but if you say

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vmware people are definitely understand what that means understand the product portfolio especially if

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you're one of my customers which are you know large banks large financial institutions they've been

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running vmware of some form or another somewhere in their house for at least five to ten years

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yeah yeah you know i mean to uh the channel one of my uh one of my old which is say someone i've

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known not that they're aged one of my old uh dell buddies matt baker who works on strategy he was he

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was always very fond of pointing out that uh virtualization was indeed a thing and i think

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you know one of the one of the sort of like market tracking disappointments i've i've had uh when i was

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one as well but i've had with the analyst community is they don't i i would expect there would be this

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framing of like uh you know i mean vmware obviously sort of our buddies so like i don't want to like

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uh put them down or anything at all but you know there's this notion of like it's great to be in the

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buggy whip business except for that last year where all the revenue drops out right so there's there's

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this theory that virtualization and on-premise let me broaden it to private cloud that on-premise is on

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that but like you know it's kind of like the uh it's similar to like next year vdi is going to be

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really big right um which are the headlines you always see at the beginning of any year and so like

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i it would be nice if like some industry analysts out there had some sort of tracker that was like you

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know the the buggy whip curve because like so far like it hasn't happened at all as far as i can tell

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um and uh no one seems to track it and like you know we talk with analysts a lot and um one of the

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first hurdles you get over uh with let's say a run-of-the-mill analyst is basically like well

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obviously private cloud is stupid so we don't need to talk about that and you're like uh so you know it

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is it is it would be nice if the analyst community track that better so that's my homework assignment for

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this episode there you go i mean they did that announcement back in the fall with amazon and vmware

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and so i mean i think the vmware is trying to be smart and say when they don't want to just get

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surprised by some cliff at some point in the future if it even comes so let's make it really easy to be

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vmware on aws and potentially keep milking that for a long time until the next big thing is figured out

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by by some of these traditional software companies yeah i mean i mean it's like so to hopefully and i say

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this to myself to close out the topic like i think i think in from the years of 2008 to 2009

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uh horace deju he did this very effectively with pcs and mobile like he had a lot of great charts that

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were like very actively showing the uh the the market share replacement of pcs over mobile and uh i've

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never really seen a similar thing uh tracked over time year over year for uh public and private cloud which

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which uh which makes me suspicious of you always i mean speaking of the earnings that you mentioned i

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i remember three years ago i believe it was where an analyst had said that windows phone was going to

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overtake android by i think this year or next year and you know speaking of that earnings were off like

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80 percent for microsoft phone in this earnings report so i mean that's a dead product at this point

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so you just wonder sometimes people get burned and don't want to make uh actually put a stake in

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the ground on claims like that that's right so so in in in other cloud news on the on the uh the side

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of the buggy whip cliff that where it's all about spark plugs the uh google there's updated their stack

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driver stuff that to have something that richard has been waiting all week to say what is that thing

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yeah i mean if you can say nozzle and friendly conversation really you've got to take it and

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that's uh so google stack driver nozzle for pcf it's in beta and our the team up here in seattle

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actually helped work on that our team worked with google folks and what that means is that you can

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kind of pump out some of the metrics in pcf into the stack driver platform in google and do some

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additional analytics and so forth so it's a good platform it does you know cross cloud it's aws

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ngcp the way stack driver works so it's just great to have yet another nozzle out of pcf and there's

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ones for splunk and there's ones for other products but it's good to have the stack driver one end stack

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driver updated they have audit logging now so for all those enterprisey shops who like to have actual

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audit trails for who changes firewall rules and who did things on the platform this actually captures

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the logs about who did what in gcp and so they keep evolving that platform probably as they continue

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to want to be more enterprise friendly that's a really nice feature that just came out yeah i haven't

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looked at stack drive in a long time but back when i was uh uh i guess that when i was at 451 when i

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when i ran the infrastructure software practice which has like monitoring and systems management i remember

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they uh they seem very comprehensive and like legit so yeah it was it was uh it's good for google that

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they acquired them and i guess and i guess i guess by virtue of this fact and that you've interacted with

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them it's it's a product that they're still uh growing and investing in and uh and and relying on

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which which is good to hear for the for the uh the alphabet folks yeah i know i curled up by the fire

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reading stack driver documentation last night so it was it was earlier last night yeah yeah yeah

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that's almost like you know my my wife bought me a uh an electric blanket throw blanket because because i

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i get cold and i have to imagine that that reading systems management documentation is

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is a bit like that except maybe it has that feel of like remember when hair dryers you could look in

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and there was like that that heating element that would come on and you were like this is basically

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a toaster that i'm holding to my head that blows i don't know i think maybe it might feel a little

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remember when as in like they don't exist anymore or i guess so i don't know i haven't really like

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looked down the barrel of a hairdryer in a long time so maybe they still do i would i would think

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instead of metal they would use ceramic or something like i feel like i feel like that would be a good

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what is this 21st century hairdryer innovation i see i'm still stuck on you with the electric blanket

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given we're the same age and it makes you sound like you're 90 so i'm trying to recognize this

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man when when i can finally get to that low pan state or i'm basically in a wheelchair the whole

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time with a plaid blanket over me just telling people i can't hear them that's that's that's uh

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that's that's my court my annual goals how can i accelerate that process picote right there

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that's right i just want to low pan into the sunset that'd be great uh and and then uh i think i think

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finally something something that uh also kind of in the systems management space it looks like it looks

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like app dynamics uh was this last week i forget or the beginning of this week it was announced

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they were about to ipo they had an s1 filed and everything which i haven't gotten to look at

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so sad i used to go look at all this stuff uh but now i get to talk with delightful people like y'all

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but uh yeah it looks like they decided instead to to be acquired to cisco i read a few little uh i i

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wouldn't call them heart racing no uh no heating element in a hairdryer kind of stuff but some fun

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accounts of kind of uh how it must have happened where you're on the road show and meanwhile you're

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uh you're one of your your rogue i bankers is out there and sells to cisco but if i remember the

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numbers they sold for like three point around five billion uh and uh and they were gonna the idea was

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they're gonna ipo at 1.9 billion so uh at least the investors got got a much better multiple i guess

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and then they're part of the uh the cisco world which as as i'm as i'm i don't know if fond is the

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right word but as i find myself pointing out people are often like cisco has software and yes indeed

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they do like several several uh many years ago they bought a uh a runbook automation company called

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either objects is in there or manage i forget maybe both of them and they've acquired some uh some

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uh systems management kind of stuff over the year now i think i think i assume the conceit with app

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dynamics i remember when i used to work on strategy not that this would ever happen but this kind of

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thing would come up a lot it's like well as things go cloud the nature of systems management changes so

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if we want to leapfrog our software nascent software portfolio we should consider these new types of

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apm tools and stuff which uh seems to fit nicely there yeah yeah i mean they're definitely uh i mean

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cisco's doing a lot of interesting things with acquisition i think we're we're all waiting to

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see how it all comes together but you know the biggest takeaway is that if you're in the pivotal

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ecosystem your chances of being acquired at a high multiple are great so for all you partners who

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aren't yet with pivotal get on that not that uh not to extrapolate too much from the correlation

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isn't causation but sure like you know one one you're always one good i banker away from an amazing

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uh amazing deal with cisco or your favorite company yeah yeah and then i i think richard must be right

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if you were to look at the pitch deck that the it's it's i keep wanting to say like uh like quade like

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in uh that it's catalyst misspelled with a q so i keep wanting to say quatilist you know open your mind

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to a higher valuation and going private but uh i'm sure in their pitch deck there's a big slide that has a

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pcf logo on it richard that uh that must have been in there well you know come on we got name dropped

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in the google earnings report yesterday by the google ceo so we're making things happen around here

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that's right it's it's really happening speaking of it really happening so the reason we have you on

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john is is uh uh as richard was pointing out several months ago we had we had uh we had ansi

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and james on uh to talk about the circle of code and kind of how and part of that you know the circle

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of code is one of the many notions we have running around here that like hey if you like doing custom

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written software and also delivering it and you want to run your business with custom written software

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like here's here's all of the the stuff in a circle because it loops back so you can approve your

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software that you should be interested in and uh you know pivotal cloud foundries involved there and

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uh concourse here and there and track like it is a very nice way of of putting most all the stuff on

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the board that helps people do their software and part of that is uh a lot of the speed and

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flexibility and and otherwise awesomeness of of a cloud native approach comes down to the uh not all

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of it but but is created by the use of containers for a lot more flexibility and things like that so we

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discuss how pivotal cloud foundry relates to that and does that and uh you know you've been on the

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show uh i think uh i think one of the live to tape recordings that's uh SpringOne platform or

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platform SpringOne sp1 and uh you you sort of uh reminded us that you see a lot of uh container

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stuff out there so so we thought it'd be nice if you came on and kind of spoke to that that area like

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what's what's going on with containers out there in the field how do people think about it what do

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they have up and running and how can we think about that part of the uh the overall circle or

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trapezoid process of code um yeah i think there's a lot of different ways that people are using

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containers especially enterprises because many of them are still you know recognizing that this is a

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sea change in how the technology is going to be deployed for enterprise use and i think many of

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them are in different stages of maturity in terms of making that evaluation as well as and actually

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rolling it out and the way that i see people or enterprises rolling it out is generally falls

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into one of three patterns um one is this sort of totally diy um approach where they will cobble

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together something like a ansible or puppet and um and maybe some terraform for provisioning

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combined with maybe like a vault or something else for secrets management and you put about do you know

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do this for every replace every need you have with the technology cobble all those technologies

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together into a single sort of diy platform and then deploy that as the thing that is going to

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both run manage and produce the containers for you so that's sort of the the first approach the second

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approach is this more like tool-based one where people delegate a little bit higher up the stack

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so instead of trying to do the provisioning and the allocation and the scheduling and the orchestration

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themselves they're going to delegate to say something like kubernetes or a combination of kubernetes

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plus some stuff that they wrote um or maybe even a um a custom scheduler like maybe they'll throw in

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mesos or or something like that but the point is who are the uh who are the people that that that

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you that are like building this stuff like what how would you characterize them or is it just all over

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the map it's really all over the map i mean the if i had to draw if i had to draw some characterizations

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it's generally what generally winds up happening is that some executive who's been brought in for

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innovation reasons takes a look around and says wow things are really messed up here we could be

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doing a lot better than we currently are for getting software into the hands of customers you know because

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that's how we make money is delivering features and products to people and they take a look around and

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they say you know what we need to up our game with how we're going to do this so they maybe do something

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like start an enterprise innovation group or they find some team members that seem kind of smart and

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they put them together in a room and say develop our enterprise strategy and how that you know that's

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sort of one mode of it and that usually leads to uh disaster because that group is kind of isolated just

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developing stuff they're not going out and talking to everybody else in the company who is part of that

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deployment pipeline and understanding how software moves from i have a business idea to it's running

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in production and so they usually converge on our solutions that simply sort of shift responsibilities

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around and give you some of the benefits of something like a container but they don't necessarily

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produce a they sort of miss the forest for the trees they don't look at the bigger picture they just

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focus on like making it really easy to operate something which is the you know it's the job of

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a container is to be a really good isolation tool but there's so much more to the story of delivering

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software than being a really good isolation tool right there's there's so much more involved in the

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delivery pipeline besides the tiny tiny slice of yes i'm going to be good at operating um the

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software in an isolated way for my other things that might be running yeah so so like like like like

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one other sort of like uh who are these people question like i i when i encounter like diy stuff

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like we have a um i mean i'm sure richard knows but we we have we have a super fancy white paper

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coming out that kind of walks over uh tips about building diy platforms and you can guess being

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from pivotal the answer is don't do that but you know it kind of it kind of walks just a one page

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white paper that says don't do that i mean ends yeah i should try that for for a one of those ignite

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talks at a devops days once but anyways uh you know it it walks through there's there's uh there's

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several people and organizations we've worked with who've gone through this life cycle and so it kind

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of like collects together and aggregates the process they went through the thinking and the uh the

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business and all the stuff that kind of gets to that bigger picture you were talking about but

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so we have that as a thing and and numerous other stuff but um i was trying to i always try to think

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back to when i was a developer in like the early 2000s like the we would sort of cobble together

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things like i think we at the time we were doing a um uh it was basically an asp but a sas application

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that used like jboss and oracle and we had to spend a lot of time like wiring that up and doing stuff

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um and i was also trying to think of like where did we like research all of that stuff right like

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it's not like we went out and it was like hey do you make an asp in 2004 here's the document of how

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to do it do it and so you know i'm i'm curious like nowadays like like when you talk with these

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people and look at yourself like where like what are the resources available for like here's how you

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build that big picture of stuff like does that idea exist out there at all or like yeah i mean

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i i i gotta say i don't think that so different enterprises are different but they're not that

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different but the problem is that everybody thinks they are really really different so the

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you can talk to one at least from my perspective um there's the sort of there are tiers within very

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large companies um that they fall into so you can imagine that the number one bank or the number one

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insurance company in the world is probably different from the number ten thousand bank or the number

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ten thousand insurance company but the number one bank of a number one insurance company is not that

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different from the number five or the number ten insurance company there is sort of a power law in

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effect there but they're they're all roughly in the same um in the same tier of needing to care about

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the same kinds of things of a number of applications they have and so on so they may they may have totally

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different revenue and you know things like that but in terms of the way of the mode of things

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they need to care about for getting to a stage where they're getting that efficient software delivery

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they don't they're not really that different so that means that you would think that because that's

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true that that would mean that the industry as a whole or the enterprise system as a whole has kind

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of converged on good ideas about how to build these things especially if they're all off in a corner

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building themselves but it turns out it's not really true because a lot of them view the way that they're

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building those container architectures to either be proprietary details um that are relevant for

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their technical success and they don't really want to be speaking about that stuff at conferences or

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at least most of them don't so that's sort of the first uh the first reason that it's maybe hasn't

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converged i think the second reason is it's it's really hard to do it and most people that are thrown

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in a room with a bunch of other enterprise innovation people are not going to through luck or

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coincidence or chance arrive at a software delivery pipeline that only happens in the crucible of

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actually delivering software and iterating on that many many times so you're never going to get to

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yeah i wound up with a great software delivery pipeline by sitting in a room and imagining what

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that would look like and you know throwing some random technologies together and hoping it sticks

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like that only works when you have the expertise and the experience and the diversity of the

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kind of folks you've been working with to build that in the first place which you know i think probably

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i haven't read this white paper that you're referring to but i imagine that um probably one of the

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benefits of having a platform like pivotal is that we have the benefit of that expertise and that

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background to be able to point to other customers and say those kind of things yeah i mean you mentioned

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two patterns that kind of completely diy and then kind of mixing components and i guess you alluded to

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there there's no one canonical like hey just build this reference architecture and that's what a diy

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platform just looks like from startup to startup or whatever because the technology is so mixed but

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what's your third pattern you see there i think the third pattern is an actual platform so you rather

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than say cobbling these things together in different levels of responsibility and then maybe throwing some

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stuff on top of it that you wrote or writing the whole thing yourself the sort of alternative to that is

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look at solutions that provide that platform capability out of the box either because they advertise

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themselves as platforms or because that's just what they do whether or not they call themselves that

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so you know cloud foundry is one example that seems to be getting a lot of market share at least from

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my perspective which admittedly is biased because i'm inside of pivotal but um but at least with respect

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to the financial institutions that i work with and that's my particular area the uh they're really looking at

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this in a serious way because they understand the one at least the uh the eventual customers of pivotal

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understand that this doesn't work to do it all by yourself it doesn't work to do that without being

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through the crucible of experience and getting the battle-tested battle-hardened version of a

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platform that might not otherwise exist so that's that's kind of where pivotal adds a lot of value

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with respect to offering that specific product so you don't really get that if you are doing it

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yourself it's not that you can't do it yourself you certainly can but it takes a lot of energy a lot of time a lot of

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resources and that's all time that your business could have been spending making money instead of building

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something from scratch right right one of these you know what could versus should what you should be doing there so

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i'm interested in your experience in one particular area here so you know from my own experience from

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what analysts say what users seem to say it seems like we're kind of all in agreement to most extent

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the point that containers make a lot of sense on the dev cycle right i mean it's awesome that i can load

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a container and get a mysql box or i can pull down certain components without even thinking about it that

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makes development a heck of a lot easier that's awesome can make on a spontaneous test environment spin up

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much much quicker than spinning up 50 servers so kind of test cycle but there's also kind of a consensus

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that hey when it comes to going to prod you know either that should be the output artifact of a

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continuous integration process that pulls in base images and loads dependencies right and packages it

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consistently and then maybe if you decide to go to production that would be the artifact that came out

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of ci versus a developer hand lovingly handcrafting their their docker file and pushing that image to

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prod what do you see as the fit for a container today in a large enterprise if you were going in and saying

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hey look this is the great way this is going to accelerate your delivery what would you say

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yeah i mean i would compare it to maybe 10 years ago 15 years ago in like 2002 if you were part of

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a software development team your software development team probably included a person who worked with the

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developers whose job was to take their output and produce a workable software artifact and then we

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realized well you know putting a human in charge of that isn't a great idea like it would be

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better if that process was automated and consistent so we wound up with continuous integration right so

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now it's 2017 and we're kind of back in the same position where we're saying you know what developers

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you're going to be responsible for packaging up your container and shipping that to operations and

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there are a lot of there are a lot of enterprises that are seeing that as they're saying that that's a

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good approach or that's the approach they're going to try and what we usually find is six months

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later they realized that wasn't a good approach for the same reason that 15 years ago we realized that

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not automating that not having that be consistent repeatable and um and robust is a good idea or is

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a bad idea to not have that so i think i think that's the parallel i would draw is if you like continuous

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integration you think it's a good idea but you should also probably agree that packaging containers in a

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way that requires any kind of manual input from a human being is a bad idea that container is going

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to eventually wind up in production because you don't have the repeatability you don't have an

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automated process that does it for you and you know kind of even worse if you want to make changes

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and you're expecting a person to be responsible for making those changes to the like base layers for

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security reasons or other otherwise then that means that now you're putting it through a human process

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again right and that's exactly what we wanted to avoid with something like continuous integration

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we wanted to avoid the uh the you know fallibility of humans and getting a process exactly right and

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give that to a computer instead make the humans do the stuff that's hard for computers like

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figuring out what a good architecture should be or how to uh how to deliver value in the form of

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software those are all things that computers are terrible at but that humans are great at but now we have

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humans doing things that computers are really great at so and humans are much more expensive than computers

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now so it's a little confusing that uh it's a little confusing when people arrive at that sort of

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logic that it's a good idea to have a development team be doing the packaging or even the operations team be

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doing the packaging that's something that continuous integration or some kind of thing like a platform

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should really be doing for you so cloud foundry has answers for that specific question we bake in a

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process that makes it possible so that when you uh when you're an application development team and you

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say please you know please make me a running piece of software from my source code there's a container at

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the end of that process but you don't care about that it's an implementation detail you just get working

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running software so that's kind of the end state that we hope enterprises arrive at is you're not

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spending a whole bunch of time making humans do things that a computer should be doing anyway for repeatable reasons

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so so then you you you've hit on a lot of uh this thing i'm about to ask you already but like just to kind of

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pull it together in in a bow so like you were mentioning you know how do these things start like you often uh

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someone comes in and wants to improve how software is done and you gather together your uh your team of

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like whether they're uh ward larry and like uh cowboys or pioneers or or you know you're you're uh

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you're ninja rock stars or whatever ridiculous term you want to use right for uh someone who has the

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technical acumen and curiosity to uh investigate doing things in a new way um so if you were like leading

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up a team like that what would be your uh sort of like sort of like suggest your your strategy for

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doing it like what you know would you like do a bunch of pocs and write something or like and then

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like but what would you do if you were given the chance to run one of these uh how do we do the

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new thing teams yeah so i mean the first thing i would do is not decide i would not let my team

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be able to make the unilateral decision about how things would work for the rest of the company

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certainly not without a extremely high degree of collaboration with the rest of the company and

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understanding their problems and what our pipeline looks like now and how we're going to make that

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better um it's way too easy for some group that labels itself innovation to come up with some kind

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of solution that gets thrown over the wall to everyone else but it's not in any way tied to the

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delivery of actual business value like you have to get buy-in from people that are doing the real work

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on the ground that this is going to improve how things work now it's you know sometimes that change

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does need to happen with an executive sponsor sometimes it is more top-down but it just doesn't work if

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you hold everyone at gunpoint and say uh you know transformation is happening get on board or get

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kicked out you have to like you have to evaluate and develop your process by looking at what exists and

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then understanding how you're going from the current state to this new idealized version where everything

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is uh super whiz bang and you have repeatable reliable and robust software delivery processes

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and it's way you know uh i really like p lander z but my other favorite absurd japan

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for whiz bang but yeah that's that's a it's it's almost uh it makes me upset at myself that i didn't

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think of that but i didn't even think of like a force of what you would do is uh if you're on one of

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these teams your first assumption is that the the rest of the company is your user and company

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i mean in customers your users and customers so it would probably be a good idea to go out and see

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what they want and what works for them like i get them very early on and and continuously involved in

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the uh the uh the process of doing it which which i mean i'll i'll i won't to really i'll let you get

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to the rest of it but that's that's one of the sort of uh is the word precepts or one of the

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principles that that we often espouse to people is so if you're doing this the first thing you need

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to realize is you're building a product and if you're building a product you have customers and

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users so as you point out you should probably start talking to them and figuring out what works and

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doesn't work for them so so then what would be the what would be the next sort of things that you

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would focus this team on yeah so you know i i think if you were in one of these enterprise innovation

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groups you'd probably um you probably hear from different groups that they have different needs

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so developers are different from operators who are different from the business people who want

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to deliver value right so so they all have different needs but they're all part of that overall pipeline

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and it's your job to understand how that pipeline works at your company and how you're going to

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change it and sort of what level of disruption are are you charged with or what are you able to do in

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the time frame that you have right like you're not going to upend how a enterprise company delivers

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10 000 software applications in a day a week or a month right you're you're that's going to be a

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gradual process so so the answer is not let's figure out how i can make this applicable to

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everyone and then push a button that flips everyone to the new mode or the new way of doing things

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it's what's the what's the transition path that's going to get me to that end state for everyone or for

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the subset of everyone that's relevant how do i do that and that is a much more gradual

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one day at a time one application at a time one infrastructure group at a time kind of approach

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so you you begin there by kind of identifying a slice through the value pipeline that uh so that

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is you know take some business sponsor take the application that they're responsible for take that

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application development team and take the infrastructure people that they work with so carve out that slice

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and say you know what would it look like to do this application or these groups of applications together

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what does it look like to do that in this new way of thinking whether that's let's throw some containers

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at it and see what happens or let's use a platform whatever that approach you're deciding on is

383
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you have to start small you can't like unilaterally apply it to everyone now where it gets tricky is

384
00:36:30,980 --> 00:36:35,380
you take an approach like well the unit of delivery that we're going to make everyone use as a

385
00:36:35,380 --> 00:36:39,780
container then we go back to some of the problems that we talked about before where it turns out that

386
00:36:39,780 --> 00:36:46,500
that's not really a sufficient level of abstraction to uh to avoid having to shift some of the

387
00:36:46,500 --> 00:36:51,620
responsibilities around and all what you don't want to do is just be in a position of moving

388
00:36:51,620 --> 00:36:56,340
responsibilities from one group to another that doesn't really make any that doesn't really make

389
00:36:56,340 --> 00:37:02,260
anything easier that's just shuffling the deck chairs on the titanic right you want to actually move

390
00:37:02,260 --> 00:37:08,180
responsibilities out of the pipeline all together so that they become a computer's job somewhere instead

391
00:37:08,180 --> 00:37:15,940
of making more jobs for people make people have the hard thought intensive jobs and not the things that

392
00:37:15,940 --> 00:37:21,940
should be easily repeatable easily automated and the things that are driving the actual value through

393
00:37:21,940 --> 00:37:27,380
the value pipeline those should be uh there should probably be human jobs and not computer jobs well

394
00:37:27,380 --> 00:37:32,420
well on that and that point in particular just so i can verify the rewriting i'm doing in my head of

395
00:37:32,420 --> 00:37:40,100
what you said it's basically uh so when you look at all of the tasks slash responsibilities that which

396
00:37:40,100 --> 00:37:46,260
is to say staffing that you need uh you hear a lot about uh about organizations changing and stuff like

397
00:37:46,260 --> 00:37:52,500
this i mean i'm i'm guilty responsible or delightfully helpful depending on your of the world about writing

398
00:37:52,500 --> 00:37:57,540
up and making that point a lot but what you would say is like one of the things you should be cognizant of

399
00:37:58,100 --> 00:38:04,260
is it's not really just about moving people around shuffling people but really what you should be

400
00:38:04,260 --> 00:38:11,300
doing is seeking to automate as much of that function as possible and i i would even suggest a uh uh like

401
00:38:11,300 --> 00:38:17,060
an automate first thing is like our first assumption is that we're going to automate everything and if you

402
00:38:17,060 --> 00:38:21,300
don't want to automate it you have to have a good reason not to do it which may be that it's

403
00:38:21,300 --> 00:38:26,420
unautomatable if that's a word but but i i i mean tell me if that notion comports with what you're

404
00:38:26,420 --> 00:38:30,100
saying but that seems to be the thing is like don't just assume you're moving people around

405
00:38:30,900 --> 00:38:35,700
assume that you're going to automate stuff uh over that so you can focus on other things right i mean

406
00:38:35,700 --> 00:38:43,780
i think it's a safe assumption to start with the idea that many like so one of the one of the

407
00:38:43,780 --> 00:38:49,940
stories i always like to bring up is if you look at how we deliver oil right now so russia ships oil

408
00:38:49,940 --> 00:38:55,860
through a 4 000 kilometer pipeline it's called the truzba pipeline truzba means friendship in russian

409
00:38:56,900 --> 00:39:03,940
and this goes from the oil fields in the like central west of russia to germany and it's 4 000

410
00:39:03,940 --> 00:39:09,860
kilometers long and it takes them about 45 days for oil to enter one end of the pipeline and go to the

411
00:39:09,860 --> 00:39:15,300
the other end of the pipeline so billions of barrels of oil are traversing this 4 000 kilometer pipeline

412
00:39:15,940 --> 00:39:22,420
in about 45 days 50 days but we can't deliver software and an enterprise to a production server that's in

413
00:39:22,420 --> 00:39:30,180
the next room over in less than 60 90 120 days for some of these people so like what so the question

414
00:39:30,180 --> 00:39:37,060
is like where in that pipeline is the holdup why does it actually take 120 days to deliver software

415
00:39:37,060 --> 00:39:42,420
why does it take this long and when we look at why does it take that long it's usually because there are

416
00:39:42,420 --> 00:39:50,900
large numbers of handoffs of responsibility between uh between people or groups or teams inside the

417
00:39:50,900 --> 00:39:58,980
company but really those handoffs are not what's adding value it's the whatever the person's doing

418
00:39:58,980 --> 00:40:04,340
that's adding value right like giving a responsibility to someone else adds no value what that person does

419
00:40:04,900 --> 00:40:10,660
to the software or the artifact of the process whatever it is that's the thing that adds value so you look

420
00:40:10,660 --> 00:40:16,580
at what those things are how many of those things could be automated those are things that are probably

421
00:40:16,580 --> 00:40:22,900
i are probably turn out you want those automated for applications that are cloud native for example

422
00:40:22,900 --> 00:40:28,420
you want them to be easily repeatable you want them to be done by a computer because you're going to be

423
00:40:28,420 --> 00:40:33,140
doing it a lot of times in a lot of different places and what you don't want to do is have to

424
00:40:33,700 --> 00:40:40,020
pick up the phone and call alice in it to ask for a new server to be provisioned if that is a process

425
00:40:40,020 --> 00:40:44,100
that takes seven days right you you want you need that thing to be automated if you want to be able

426
00:40:44,100 --> 00:40:50,500
to short that shorten that pipeline right now that makes sense yeah so one more container question

427
00:40:50,500 --> 00:40:54,100
before i want to pivot you to something else but so a lot of those things you just talked about

428
00:40:54,100 --> 00:40:59,220
around automation and and thinking of your stakeholders especially as you're doing kind of incremental

429
00:40:59,220 --> 00:41:05,220
transformation are you seeing enough attention paid on the day two ops story of these things i think

430
00:41:05,220 --> 00:41:09,220
that's where we sometimes can get excited about tech and we deploy stuff and as you say sometimes it just

431
00:41:09,220 --> 00:41:15,300
gets handed over and becomes tough to manage so how do you see shops who are getting going on some of

432
00:41:15,300 --> 00:41:19,540
these products as they think of their stakeholders like hey those ones who have to run it and hopefully

433
00:41:19,540 --> 00:41:26,260
they're in a you build it you run it sort of product team model maybe not but what do you do when

434
00:41:26,260 --> 00:41:31,140
something breaks when you do have all of a sudden you know a thousand microservices and twelve thousand

435
00:41:31,140 --> 00:41:36,820
containers and there's a zero day linux bug how are they deploying that out there i mean cf were spoiled

436
00:41:36,820 --> 00:41:41,700
because i can see every stage rebuild a container with the latest build pack and have all the latest

437
00:41:41,700 --> 00:41:47,540
bits and i'm fine i don't i don't even need to go upstream but how are you how are you seeing companies take into

438
00:41:47,540 --> 00:41:51,540
account the ops story when they think of this deployment pipeline when they think of all these

439
00:41:51,540 --> 00:41:57,300
stakeholders and trying to do software better yeah i mean i think the answer is that's why you see a

440
00:41:57,300 --> 00:42:01,780
lot of people who tried to build it themselves six months later like yeah it didn't work let's try

441
00:42:01,780 --> 00:42:07,620
cloud foundry and see where that gets us uh because six months is about how long it takes for that next

442
00:42:07,620 --> 00:42:12,500
few release cycles to happen and then they realize oh we were operating software that we don't really have

443
00:42:12,500 --> 00:42:17,300
a plan or a strategy for there's no if we know how to operate it but we don't know how to keep

444
00:42:17,300 --> 00:42:22,740
operating it after it's already out there and the tooling doesn't help you with that and that's the

445
00:42:22,740 --> 00:42:28,180
kind of stuff you're really only going to discover after you've gotten it all the way to production and

446
00:42:28,180 --> 00:42:34,340
you've been through a couple of cbes there are like good ways and bad ways of doing that but without the

447
00:42:35,380 --> 00:42:41,380
without that being part of your automation strategy in general and the 5 000 other things that go along

448
00:42:41,380 --> 00:42:45,780
with your day two operation story you're not really going to have a successful outcome in delivering

449
00:42:45,780 --> 00:42:51,940
value to software or at least not pass not pass the first time you do it anyway and and i think the

450
00:42:51,940 --> 00:42:56,900
the areas where people fall down the most are you alluded to one which is that like zero day patching sort of

451
00:42:56,900 --> 00:43:03,380
situation but it it even if there isn't a critical problem even if there is no zero day that applies

452
00:43:03,380 --> 00:43:09,380
to you there's best practices you're going to want to be able to achieve anyway so for example

453
00:43:10,820 --> 00:43:17,380
eventually your ssl certificates will expire so you know what does it mean to rotate your certs

454
00:43:17,380 --> 00:43:22,500
on your platform or for your containers or for your applications is that automated or is that manual does

455
00:43:22,500 --> 00:43:27,060
someone have to remember that the certificate is about to expire is there like a google calendar

456
00:43:27,060 --> 00:43:31,700
invite somewhere about you know six years from now you better hope that that person is still employed

457
00:43:31,700 --> 00:43:37,620
with the company or else everyone will discover that their ssl no longer works so that kind of stuff is

458
00:43:38,500 --> 00:43:43,940
is the category of things that don't really show up on the radar when you're building this stuff

459
00:43:43,940 --> 00:43:49,380
but it's absolutely critical to get right when you are running in production it matters less if you're

460
00:43:49,380 --> 00:43:53,620
running in development because you're blowing away the infrastructure all the time or if you're just

461
00:43:53,620 --> 00:43:58,500
running a science experiment it also matters less but if you're running this if you're a fortune 500

462
00:43:58,500 --> 00:44:03,220
and you're running this stuff in production you really need to have your ducks in a row at least for

463
00:44:03,220 --> 00:44:07,780
the first three applications you're deploying on here you need to get that right or otherwise really

464
00:44:07,780 --> 00:44:14,020
the experiment will be a failure yeah that's great good points i want to you know let's be a

465
00:44:14,020 --> 00:44:17,860
couple more questions for you you've got an internal paper you put together which i don't know

466
00:44:17,860 --> 00:44:22,180
what to do with yet i'm going to figure out a way to promote it to the masses but uh it's

467
00:44:22,180 --> 00:44:26,580
about some of the app profiling stuff for pcf because a lot of what we do isn't just hey new

468
00:44:26,580 --> 00:44:32,420
company or company put all your new apps here it's a lot of you know re-platforming it's modernization

469
00:44:32,420 --> 00:44:36,500
it's taking sometimes even just picking up these modern apps and moving them to the platform

470
00:44:36,500 --> 00:44:42,180
and this paper was i think you trying to say hey as you have sort of intense monolithic apps you

471
00:44:42,180 --> 00:44:46,500
have some lightweight apps you have different things how can you map from a kind of app server

472
00:44:46,500 --> 00:44:51,780
sort of model to an application instance model the pcf uses can you tell me a little bit about a little

473
00:44:51,780 --> 00:44:57,140
bit about where that came from and some of the mental model you put together there sure yeah so

474
00:44:58,500 --> 00:45:05,300
this came about the paper came about because i kept working with customers who would raise the same

475
00:45:05,300 --> 00:45:11,380
questions again and again namely i'm really interested in using a platform but i don't understand what does

476
00:45:11,380 --> 00:45:19,140
it mean for me when i want to move my monolithic application over to something like cloud foundry or

477
00:45:19,140 --> 00:45:23,300
for that matter i have a bunch of microservices that are running somewhere else we're not running that

478
00:45:23,300 --> 00:45:27,300
great in this other location i'd like to move them to cloud foundry to kind of leverage the benefits of

479
00:45:27,300 --> 00:45:34,420
a platform and accelerate how i write and deliver software and and for a lot of customers it's

480
00:45:34,420 --> 00:45:42,740
we use application instances as our you know metric of how many um how intensively you're using cloud foundry

481
00:45:43,300 --> 00:45:48,980
and that's that's sort of the the metric that we use but for a lot of customers that's the first time

482
00:45:48,980 --> 00:45:54,420
they've been exposed to the idea of instances or the idea of ai's as a metric for

483
00:45:55,220 --> 00:46:02,740
the intensive uh the intensity by which they're using some software product so i wrote that to kind of

484
00:46:02,740 --> 00:46:08,420
spell out for them what it means and how to map their existing ideas into ai's and it turns out for

485
00:46:08,420 --> 00:46:16,500
most cases it's an extremely simple one-to-one conversion basically if your app is like most most

486
00:46:16,500 --> 00:46:24,900
applications if it's io bound that is if it is constrained not by cpu but rather by how quickly it can

487
00:46:24,900 --> 00:46:31,460
receive and send requests typically http but it might be something else like maybe it's over tcp or

488
00:46:31,460 --> 00:46:39,060
whatever but but typically http requests are io bound so if you uh the rate at which you can process

489
00:46:39,060 --> 00:46:45,060
requests is usually limited by the rate at which you can receive and send network communications so

490
00:46:45,060 --> 00:46:50,100
that's what we call an io bound application if your application looks like that then it's pretty much a

491
00:46:50,100 --> 00:46:56,900
one-to-one conversion of however many processes you have running today in your on-premises data center

492
00:46:56,900 --> 00:47:03,220
is probably how many you want to be running in cloud foundry as ai's so if you have 10 jbms for some

493
00:47:03,220 --> 00:47:10,660
application you probably have 10 ai's in cloud foundry what's different is when you have applications

494
00:47:10,660 --> 00:47:17,220
that are not io bound so if your application is constrained instead by the cpu that it wants to

495
00:47:17,220 --> 00:47:23,940
use or the memory that it wants to use that's a different story so then the uh then the document

496
00:47:23,940 --> 00:47:31,220
goes on to describe some ways that you might um that you might consider mapping your existing and your

497
00:47:31,220 --> 00:47:40,020
existing uh counter processes into what might be ai's so i offer some guidelines there but in general one

498
00:47:40,020 --> 00:47:46,500
example would be something like if you are doing you know cryptocurrency validation so you uh you have

499
00:47:46,500 --> 00:47:50,900
a blockchain and you want to make sure that some transaction is actually part of the blockchain

500
00:47:50,900 --> 00:47:56,980
then you would want to run something that's pretty cpu intensive you would uh there you'd be

501
00:47:56,980 --> 00:48:01,620
you'd be doing a quick check on that transaction but when you're adding a lot more transactions to

502
00:48:01,620 --> 00:48:06,660
the blockchain or you're you know mining for cryptocurrency you're going to be doing a lot

503
00:48:06,660 --> 00:48:12,660
of work relative to the amount of memory or the the size of your instance and then and that means that

504
00:48:12,660 --> 00:48:17,700
you sort of have to do a little math about you know exactly what does that mean in terms of the

505
00:48:17,700 --> 00:48:24,340
resource allocation and making sure that uh making sure that what you had before is going to map to

506
00:48:24,340 --> 00:48:30,580
ai as well and cloud foundry is really good about handling workloads in general so if you have like

507
00:48:30,580 --> 00:48:36,740
really really cpu intensive stuff next to other really really cpu intensive stuff cloud foundry will

508
00:48:36,740 --> 00:48:41,460
notice that and make sure that those workloads don't uh go next to each other so they'll always get

509
00:48:41,460 --> 00:48:46,100
they'll get the workload that they should be getting um and the resources that they should be getting

510
00:48:46,100 --> 00:48:53,860
to do that workload um but cloud foundry also kind of assumes that most stuff by default is io bound

511
00:48:53,860 --> 00:48:58,180
because that's usually the case that most most things are io bound they're getting network requests

512
00:48:58,180 --> 00:49:02,420
from somewhere else and they're doing something to that request and so so when it's not but it

513
00:49:02,420 --> 00:49:06,500
doesn't look like that we wanted to offer some advice about what does it mean for my application what

514
00:49:06,500 --> 00:49:10,660
does that look like and so that was the purpose of the the white paper and i would think some of

515
00:49:10,660 --> 00:49:15,460
that factors into things like auto scaling and being able to quick spin up and and decontract

516
00:49:15,460 --> 00:49:20,660
application instances that you might have had 10 jvms or 10 you know web core iis sort of

517
00:49:20,660 --> 00:49:25,620
processes but that's because you modeled it for the peak so you have to still do usual i guess usage

518
00:49:25,620 --> 00:49:30,260
profiling and try to get people to start with what they need not what they necessarily had to use

519
00:49:30,260 --> 00:49:36,740
before right exactly and a lot of cases you know like we talked about before because that pipeline it was

520
00:49:36,740 --> 00:49:43,300
really long and difficult to traverse if you had to get more capacity if the way that you got more capacity

521
00:49:43,300 --> 00:49:51,220
was i need to call up alice and it and ask her to provision me some more space and that takes three

522
00:49:51,220 --> 00:49:56,900
months well guess what you're probably going to err on the side of saying you need a lot more resources

523
00:49:56,900 --> 00:50:02,500
than you actually need so there's probably a lot of baked in inefficiency already with some of these

524
00:50:02,500 --> 00:50:08,740
companies that have these slow enterprise deployment pipelines because they have no choice except to

525
00:50:08,740 --> 00:50:15,060
over commit the uh the amount of risk or over commit on the number of resources they say they need versus

526
00:50:15,060 --> 00:50:19,220
what they actually need and when you go to cloud foundry you might just get some savings for free

527
00:50:19,220 --> 00:50:23,700
because you can just start with what you need and scale up or down as you need and on demand

528
00:50:24,260 --> 00:50:28,580
yeah bringing it home is why i think containers help because we know we can spin up new application

529
00:50:28,580 --> 00:50:33,140
instances in three seconds or what have you which is much different than building a physical box or

530
00:50:33,140 --> 00:50:38,020
even spinning up a vm so again some awesome value when the platform's using it and maybe not

531
00:50:38,020 --> 00:50:43,300
throwing the burden on the on the devs or ops staff exactly and you know the last thing you want

532
00:50:43,300 --> 00:50:48,500
is to make if you're the enterprise innovation group and you're the svp who's just been hired to

533
00:50:48,500 --> 00:50:52,900
make a big splash uh the last kind of splash you want to make is to have everybody else in the

534
00:50:52,900 --> 00:50:59,860
company really mad at you for what you proposed yep well thanks for being on this episode this was this

535
00:50:59,860 --> 00:51:06,740
was uh this is really helpful and interesting we'll have to as with most thrilling helpful white papers

536
00:51:06,740 --> 00:51:10,900
we have around pivotal we could probably make it public we'll have to see what what we can do with

537
00:51:10,900 --> 00:51:15,860
it we got a lot of uh things scurrying about that sort of are hidden around in google docs somewhere but

538
00:51:15,860 --> 00:51:23,460
uh i'll have to at least read it so i'll benefit bully for me anyhow uh where are you uh if people

539
00:51:23,460 --> 00:51:29,220
wanted to contact you you gotta you got like twitter and stuff like that where where can people find you

540
00:51:29,220 --> 00:51:38,260
yeah i'm on jxxf on twitter uh you can also just email me at jxf at pivotal.io uh and you know if

541
00:51:38,260 --> 00:51:42,660
you see me at a conference or whatever feel free to come say hi and we'll have a nice chat about what

542
00:51:42,660 --> 00:51:48,180
the inside of a hairdryer looks like oh yes i'm gonna have to go verify that uh pretty soon here well

543
00:51:48,180 --> 00:51:55,220
as always this is Pivotal Conversations uh you can find uh us by going to soundcloud.com

544
00:51:55,220 --> 00:52:02,180
slash Pivotal Conversations we're in itunes and overcast and we we have one review there about our

545
00:52:02,180 --> 00:52:07,140
most excellent hr uh discussion in there but if you if you like this show it's always good to go at

546
00:52:07,140 --> 00:52:12,660
least add a rating or a view in itunes or hit the recommend thing in overcast but really the most

547
00:52:12,660 --> 00:52:18,100
helpful thing is just to uh subscribe to the rss feed which you can find there or uh tell a friend

548
00:52:18,100 --> 00:52:22,420
about it uh and i'll put the show notes uh we mentioned several things here and i'll put them

549
00:52:22,420 --> 00:52:29,700
up at cote.io slash conversations 48 and then you can look up all the uh the amazing stuff we have

550
00:52:29,700 --> 00:52:32,580
and with that we'll see everyone next time bye bye