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So as often happens when it rains here, I want to seek your counsel, Richard, because

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you live in Seattle, if I remember, where it rains every day.

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And everyone's running around with those, you know, fancy rain slickers, maybe from

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Columbia, REI, Patagonia here and there for people who like to shell out the cash.

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So it's been rainy here.

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And so my question is, what are the considerations that you put into footwear when it's moist

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so much?

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Like what, I mean, I don't even know where to start, but there must be some thinking

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like you don't wear those duck boots all the time, right?

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So there must be something that you do.

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Yeah, I can't really sport galoshes very well either.

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So yeah, depending on footwear, it's a good question.

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The other thing I've learned in Seattle is you actually don't use an umbrella unless it

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hits a biblical level of rain.

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So I became, I was shown as a newcomer very quickly when I broke out the umbrella and got

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laughed at in public.

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So you do have to be ready for the rain.

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We are at the floor.

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The footwear matters in terms of sneakers, often still.

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Sometimes rubber shoes, though.

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People do have those in their closets.

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Really?

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Rubber shoes.

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So only Noah's umbrella, rubber shoes, maybe.

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So you got that covered.

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Well, that's good.

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Well, we have a guest for this episode.

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Why don't you introduce yourself, guest?

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Hello, my name is guest, frequently referred to as Peter Humphrey.

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How are you, Michael Coté?

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Just fine.

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Now, since you're on here, I'll give you a non sequitur question, which isn't totally

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non sequitur.

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What, you know, what's up with the spelling of your name?

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Is that German?

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It is a slight Dutch tribute to my mom's father who passed when she was quite young.

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Now, is that Dutch like New England Dutch, which is short for Deutsch, which is German,

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or Dutch like Holland Dutch, like the orange people?

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It is not German.

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It is not.

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It is definitely Holland Dutch.

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If you've ever noticed, I look like that little dude on the front of the paint boy can,

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the Dutch white paint boy can.

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That's good stuff.

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Oh, yeah.

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That's good stuff.

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Have you dressed up like him before with that haircut that he has?

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Is that called a page boy haircut?

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I forget.

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It is.

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It is, exactly.

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I try to sport that look as often as possible.

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That's wonderful.

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Well, we have a few little news items to go over per usual.

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And then we have Peter here because we're going to talk about the wonderful worldwide of Java

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Enterprise stuff, which is, you know, I don't have any connection to page boy haircuts there.

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So, and, you know, feel free to tell us what you think of these news items, Peter.

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So, first of, I noticed this too.

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I forget when this was.

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Actually, it's dated in the URL, which is nice.

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I guess it was announced at the beginning of January.

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But Atlassian, renowned for being both Australian and having supposedly no sales force, which I always think is interesting.

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Good claim there.

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But they bought Trello.

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So, Trello of the Jeff Atwood coding whore founding fame and Joel Spolsky, Mr. Leaky Abstraction.

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And every coder needs their own office.

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So, I think the purchase price was some umpteen hundreds of millions of dollars, which is interesting.

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Yeah, it was around, I think it was around $450, and I think their revenue was around $10.

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So, that was a nice multiplier.

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Ooh.

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Yeah.

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Good to be at Trello, huh?

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Yeah.

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Well, first of all, they're like, they're a SaaS company.

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And they're basically, they're like a Kanban board, right?

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Or I should say, they're like a Kanban toolkit.

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Now, I'm sure there's always like the uppercase Kanban and the lowercase Kanban people.

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Anything related to lean manufacturing always has sort of like a, sort of like an orthodox versus whatever you want to do sort of split.

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But, you know, it seems like of all the Kanban-y things out there, it's the most general purpose, flexible one.

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You basically have as many swim lanes as you want, which is to say vertical.

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If you imagine a screen, you got vertical towers there, things that go from top to bottom.

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And then you have some concept of cards, which you can move beyond these pillars.

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And you can name the pillars whatever you want and put whatever you want on cards.

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But you can also color them and assign them to people.

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So, I guess the most basic usage, other than making your own version of Pinterest, which, you know, is sort of like the scourge of the craft world.

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You ever try to search for something and you come up with this Pinterest stuff?

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And it's like, you keep clicking on it and you're like, no, I want the picture.

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I want the picture.

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And the next thing you know, you've like uploaded all your photos somewhere.

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It's just, it's terrible.

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They need to solve that.

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Anyhow.

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I actually feel your pain on that one.

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I have an eight-year-old daughter.

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I get Pinterest stuff all the time.

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It's just, it used to be useful.

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You used to be able to go there and just get pictures.

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But now, I don't know what they do.

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They probably have some JavaScript that does some random linking to itself.

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And it's just very confusing.

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Anyhow.

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Yeah.

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On the Trello front.

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Oh, thanks for bringing us back.

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I was getting a little lost there.

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You know, I've seen a lot of companies copying that feel.

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So, GitHub Enterprise kind of added some of the visual card kind of swim lane thing.

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Some other tools have as well.

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I think that some of this came from, if you read some of the material about this, is these companies are looking for more ways to adopt more than just technical users.

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And so, heck, I use Trello to plan my move up to Washington.

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Like, there's other tools, usages for this besides just, you know, sprint boards and things like that.

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Although, our marketing team does use Trello to plan our software or our marketing sprints.

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And, of course, Pivotal has Pivotal Tracker.

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We love that for actual software release planning.

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But some of these tools have started to blur the line, like Trello.

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So, either way, it's cool to see them find a good home.

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I think there's some skepticism that Atlassian will keep them, leave them alone and help them continue to do their thing.

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But, hey, let's see.

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Yeah, it is basically project management tracking.

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And if I remember, Jira does that.

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But more from the Bugzilla classic way.

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I haven't actually seen Jira in a long time.

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And, like you're saying, as Peter will attest to, we've screwed around with Trello here and there.

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I remember I once subjected it on the team that I was on, which was a delightful failed experiment in organization.

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But, I don't know.

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I think I even tried to use it for my wedding tour.

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Although, I think it was a little before that when I got married.

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And my wife is not interested in digitally optimizing her to-do list.

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It just never works.

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I can't get mine to even use a shared Google calendar.

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So, you know, consider yourself lucky.

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I like Trello.

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I've gotten used to it.

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I think it's just enough project management.

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It's lightweight enough.

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It doesn't really get in your way.

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And it doesn't, you know, yeah, it doesn't seem to want to take over your life.

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I like it a lot.

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Yeah.

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That's interesting.

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I guess I should know better, but I never really.

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I guess they did take investment from some of these.

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What else do you see out there in the news sphere, Mr. Coté?

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Well, there's, let's see.

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What have we put in here?

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The one thing that I mostly put in here, there's a couple of things I wanted to go over.

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I think my former analyst firm, 451, came out with a market sizing for containers.

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And if I remember, it's something, and I bring this up just because I know people will be interested in this.

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It's in the context of their overall, they call it cloud enabling technologies or CET, which I forget what the market size is there.

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But for containers, they put it at like $730 or $40 million, which is interesting.

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But like that's a lot of revenue for containers.

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I think they have some estimates for like Docker revenue.

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And then I would guess like, I mean, the only people that have revenue would be like VMware with Photon stuff and then Red Hat, I think.

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And then somehow we're listed in there, which is a little, we're listed in the overall private cloud way with what seems like an accurate amount of revenue.

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But we're listed in the container part, which is a little odd because we don't necessarily make money directly off of containers.

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So I'm not sure how they came up with it, which is all to say it's a fun sort of swag at what's sloshing around the container market.

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But it's good to look at with a little bit of, I don't know, more wet finger in the wind and precise way to land on Mars correctly.

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That's probably the right comparison.

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I think you're trying to put things into buckets to show momentum, but I don't even know if you have to manufacture it.

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There is momentum there, but are people making money?

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I think that's a fair question to ask.

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You know, Pivotal just finished up our greatest year.

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I think at this point we're making more than all straight up container and config management vendors combined.

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So there's just a question of how much is of that as revenue as straight up containers or platforms or whatever.

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But hey, it's growing.

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And as you say, that's the direction we're going.

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And I think also more broadly, like the 451 is one of the only people that does what I would call a proper private cloud market sizing.

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The way they categorize it and do it.

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And like it's actually very hard to find private cloud market sizing out there.

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Like the – as we'll talk about later, there's a category of software that Gartner has called cloud-enabled application platforms.

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Or as I like to call it, creep.

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And that's right.

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It's very Nixonian.

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And anyhow, you know, I mean, that's a slice of it.

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But it's hard.

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The 451 one includes like OpenStack.

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And I'm sure there's a few dollars for Eucalyptus or something.

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And then VMware things.

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So that's one of the better market shares for that.

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Well, what else did you find out there, Richard?

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You collected the other ones.

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So I'm handing it off to you.

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Yeah, I listed something on there.

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You know, there's a story the last couple weeks around all these MongoDB instances that have gotten hacked and then held for ransom.

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And so the reason this came about is MongoDB doesn't have some default security on.

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So if you put these on internet-facing networks, somebody who simply has the IP address of the database can access it with no password.

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And then they were taking the data and holding it for ransom.

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So, you know, there was a lot of hand-wringing, of course, about this.

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And I think it just continues to drive home, though.

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You have to be careful with self-service data solutions.

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And sometimes trying to solve the problem quickly isn't solving it right.

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So, you know, what is the right thing to do there?

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Sure.

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In a pivotal world, it's a Bosch-enabled service for databases and things.

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That you get a hardened database and still self-service.

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You know, in other places, if you're using cloud database-to-service, you're better covered.

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But, you know, developers like to solve problems.

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That's awesome.

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But this is, I think, a byproduct of doing that, is that sometimes you can be left with less than optimistic security.

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Yeah.

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With no password on it, that seems like a bad idea.

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I mean, I'm no security expert, but it doesn't seem like you should do that.

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Rule number one of databases.

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Have a password?

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That isn't P-A-S-S-W-0-R-E-T.

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Yeah, that was reminding me of the, you know, you used to get a router or whatever you want to call it, an access point.

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And it would often have a password.

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I don't know.

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I should probably go change the password on mine.

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It's just got some default gobbledygook that came with it.

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I was wondering what the tweet storm is about in the last few days with all these companies saying, hey, you know, review your default security policy settings.

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I saw an Elastic tweet about that.

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Now I understand.

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I didn't realize that came from Mongo.

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Yeah, it's pretty scary stuff.

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So it should be a good wake-up call for people to, again, focus on self-service, but responsible self-service.

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So the other thing I added was just today, actually, Oracle's been doing a roadshow talking about some of their cloud stuff.

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And they are also doing their investment in cloud IaaS expansion.

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Again, somehow they were growing two times as fast as Amazon, which seems a little strange.

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But nonetheless, ignoring any usual Oracle big claims, you know, they are expanding this year.

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And, you know, they like to put themselves as one of the top three or four clouds at this point.

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So I think it'll be interesting to see that continued fight for the second tier winner.

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Is that Microsoft and Google?

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Or does Oracle kind of get themselves into there?

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Will they be able to earn the credibility?

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But they're investing, and that's always good to see if you're an Oracle customer.

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Yeah, I can use a Trumpian rhetorical trick here and say, like, you know, I totally could say that growth from zero is massive.

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But I'm not going to say that.

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They're great guys.

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They're great.

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Love them.

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Tremendous.

233
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That's right.

234
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So then you have your paper is finally nearing completion.

235
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Yeah.

236
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Speaking of growth from zero.

237
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Yeah.

238
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So I did this paper last year.

239
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Just like it was more like a series of blogs that we put into a PDF.

240
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That's a great function of the WordPress Pro.

241
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Make yourself look fancy.

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Right click.

243
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But anyways, so I more collected together stuff.

244
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I've been talking with people from the last year and while writing it.

245
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And it's about 50 pages of just enough to make you wish it was 200 pages.

246
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So I pretty much have all of that done written.

247
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And I'm trying to – I'll probably have our PDF people look at it.

248
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There was some publisher I was talking about who was vaguely interested in it, but I don't think they're interested in it.

249
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So hopefully we'll have that out.

250
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And I'll put a link to it in our show notes if you want to look at it in its Google Docs form.

251
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I mean if you're someone who needs to have like really wide margins and lots of fancy color in order to think something's good, you should wait until there's a PDF version of it because it's just Google Docs.

252
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And also on that note, there's some dancing around with our publishing stuff.

253
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So I think I'll put the show notes for this episode on my blog just to make sure they're out.

254
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And so I'll make a note of this at the end if I remember.

255
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But I'm going to put it at cote.io slash conversations.

256
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I don't know what number this is.

257
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Just go to conversations and you'll find it.

258
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But you've got to go look at my blog to find it.

259
00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:54,280
And I'll put it in the little show notes that we'll be able to publish with.

260
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So with that jangly overview there.

261
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So the thing we wanted to talk about this week is I think – I forget when it was published.

262
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A couple months ago in December.

263
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Yeah.

264
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Time flies.

265
00:14:10,560 --> 00:14:20,260
Anyways, but the two of the folks at Gardner who covered this space, Ann Thomas and another fellow whose name escapes me embarrassingly,

266
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they wrote a piece that was basically – it was exciting, like bush banging to get people all riled up about it.

267
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And it was basically going over – I mean I'll give my summary of it and then hand it over to you guys to summarize better.

268
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But essentially it was noting that the – the way I would summarize it is that the pace of innovation, so to speak,

269
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of traditional Java application servers hasn't been keeping up enough with demands for new types of programming that is cloud native.

270
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They like to put a hyphen in it, which is great for them.

271
00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:59,520
So, you know, basically there's a new style of development that people should shift over to.

272
00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:05,140
And in the opinion of the two writers, your traditional Java application servers are not going to cut the mustard.

273
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Maybe one day they will.

274
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But at the moment they're not, which they sort of – they kind of back-solve to the idea that if you're doing what would be called JEE or used to be J2EE,

275
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Enterprise Java Applications, you should probably not be doing that if you want to do cloud native things.

276
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And then they also kind of back-solve to like, therefore, if you're doing your digital whatnot, your digital transformation stuff,

277
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Enterprise Java is not your best bet.

278
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And they give some recommendations.

279
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And I think they have a – you know, there's not a lot of supporting evidence, which in a thing like this you don't really have.

280
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But they do do revenue and usage to show a decline in WebSphere and WebLogic, which I think is interesting.

281
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And then over a three-year time, an increase in usage and revenue – or maybe it's just revenue – but an increase in revenue of non-traditional Java enterprise things.

282
00:15:54,020 --> 00:16:03,220
And I think just to sum up, I think the other sort of points of proof that you would have is one gives the benefit of the doubt or, you know, many people don't.

283
00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:12,920
But one gives the benefit of an out to a Gardner analyst that this also reflects conversations they've had with vendors about their own roadmaps and also conversations with end users about what they want to do.

284
00:16:13,700 --> 00:16:25,280
So the whole reason that – other than it being, you know, interesting, like we also licensed it so you can get a copy of it because it's a pretty good endorsement of the pivotal way of life.

285
00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,780
But because it was available to read, it's very exciting.

286
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Normally, people can't read this stuff.

287
00:16:30,140 --> 00:16:35,420
So there's actually a lot of controversial stuff going on behind the analyst paywall that people just like don't encounter.

288
00:16:36,420 --> 00:16:43,480
But because it was available to read, there was like a whole like, you know, speaking of rain, a storm of whatnot going on about it.

289
00:16:43,660 --> 00:16:45,540
So it seems like a good summary.

290
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And then I keep saying finally.

291
00:16:47,380 --> 00:16:58,100
But I think one of the better – there's a good summary that's one of the more professionally put together info queue pieces just because it has so many sources and everything about people talking about it and summarizing it.

292
00:16:58,220 --> 00:17:08,040
And even from the loyal opposition of our – one of our dear leaders, Ian Andrews, kind of going over our belief about kind of our response to all of that.

293
00:17:08,140 --> 00:17:09,960
So there's a good piece summarizing it.

294
00:17:10,220 --> 00:17:14,680
And since Peter operates in this space, it seemed like it would be fun to talk about it.

295
00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:16,100
Thank you.

296
00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:17,680
So we'll – yeah.

297
00:17:17,780 --> 00:17:21,440
So I wanted to chat with Peter about some of the kind of the spring piece of that.

298
00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:22,520
We'll go over that in a moment.

299
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:24,360
I think that – I think it was a good summary.

300
00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:29,060
There was a good summary at the top that kind of said, look, the trend from this market guide – it's a market guide for App Platform.

301
00:17:29,180 --> 00:17:31,020
This is something Gartner creates themselves.

302
00:17:31,180 --> 00:17:31,820
It's not commissioned.

303
00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:33,720
It's not something that any vendor sponsors.

304
00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:41,280
But they said, look, there should be a strategy to deal with the obsolete nature of Java EE, that you should be using application paths.

305
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:43,000
That's kind of the modern middleware.

306
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Regardless of whether those other things are okay, modern middleware is now kind of in a platform as a service layer.

307
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And then arguably one of the most interesting points that I think Pivotal actually liked more than the other ones was you should be designing all your apps to be cloud native.

308
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Whether they're running in the cloud or not, that is the paradigm you should be pursuing for all of your sort of systems.

309
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:09,060
And I think that's a good call to action for leaders who might think that they can just do certain things in a modern way and other things not.

310
00:18:09,060 --> 00:18:13,480
So, you know, with all that, Peter, I don't know if you want to give us a quick 30-second.

311
00:18:13,620 --> 00:18:16,780
First of all, who the heck are you and what do you do in the Spring side?

312
00:18:16,860 --> 00:18:18,500
How will people maybe recognize your name?

313
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:18,960
Sure.

314
00:18:19,060 --> 00:18:20,200
Yeah, thanks, Richard.

315
00:18:20,300 --> 00:18:20,660
I appreciate it.

316
00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:22,000
And Coté, yeah, thank you very much.

317
00:18:22,060 --> 00:18:26,340
I've been waiting for this report for a long time in some ways because I think it just kind of acknowledges what I've seen as reality.

318
00:18:27,060 --> 00:18:31,920
I work for Richard in product marketing on the Spring Cloud Foundry team.

319
00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:48,340
And before coming to Pivotal, I worked at BEA Systems for WebLogic for many years, from like 2001 to 2008, when we got acquired by Oracle and then stayed on for a few years, about four years, doing WebLogic server, Java EE development tool product marketing.

320
00:18:48,740 --> 00:18:52,260
So, you know, I saw the revenue numbers where the bodies are buried.

321
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,360
You know, I've kind of seen the whole wave.

322
00:18:56,460 --> 00:18:58,940
I mean, that's where I grew up, really, technologically speaking.

323
00:18:58,940 --> 00:19:03,980
Yeah, and you're – so now you're kind of our Spring guy among many other things, of course.

324
00:19:04,460 --> 00:19:08,400
So, I mean, tell us a little bit about how Spring gets developed and shipped out today.

325
00:19:08,500 --> 00:19:15,120
I mean, this is something that has taken off a lot, and if you pay any attention to Spring releases, they're seemingly getting shipped all the time.

326
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,480
There's milestones, there's releases, there's different projects.

327
00:19:17,660 --> 00:19:20,820
It's not a monolithic release once a year or anything.

328
00:19:21,180 --> 00:19:21,300
Yeah.

329
00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:26,240
So tell us a little bit about how the Spring – you know, get a little peek behind the curtain, how Spring hits the market.

330
00:19:26,540 --> 00:19:26,720
Sure.

331
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:27,100
Yeah, totally.

332
00:19:27,580 --> 00:19:30,780
So there's a – I'd say at the high level, there's a fast lane and a slow lane.

333
00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:40,240
If you want the fast lane, we release milestones that are usually our feature-bearing out to the developer community so people can get the bits, you know, as soon as humanly possible, right?

334
00:19:40,300 --> 00:19:44,480
Zero weight and try to, you know, continuously deliver stuff as much as possible.

335
00:19:45,660 --> 00:19:58,440
So we will host feature-bearing milestones, then we'll move into a release candidate phase to get community feedback and, you know, signal to folks, hey, this is good enough that we think it's worth you kicking the tires for five or ten minutes to give us some feedback.

336
00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:08,740
Yeah, and then eventually things will go GA status, and those bits also get hosted at Maven Central or I think it's J Center for Gradle users.

337
00:20:09,540 --> 00:20:17,740
But if you want things like milestone builds or nightly builds even from our CI pipelines, you know, we have a separate repo for that that's not Maven Central.

338
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,040
We host our own version of Maven Central and Artifactory.

339
00:20:20,220 --> 00:20:25,520
So that's kind of the fast lane, and all the projects iterate independently, right?

340
00:20:26,260 --> 00:20:27,140
There's lots of projects.

341
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:28,280
Oh, yeah, yes.

342
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:30,600
One thing Spring does not suffer from is the lack of projects.

343
00:20:30,660 --> 00:20:31,420
That's certainly true.

344
00:20:32,900 --> 00:20:44,620
And the nice thing is, though, that they really can iterate independently, and sort of the main trunk of the tree and the main dependency is the Spring framework, which is your core application context and version of control container.

345
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:51,140
On the slow lane, Spring IO platform, so we'll do a slower release site.

346
00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:58,340
Prices actually enjoy that slower pace, and they're going to want to pick things up once a year.

347
00:20:58,980 --> 00:21:04,800
You know, if you're still kind of in that three-tier monolithic world, that's often the cadence of things, every six months, once a year.

348
00:21:05,380 --> 00:21:24,540
So every six months, once a year kind of cadence, we do release something called Spring IO platform, where there'll be a big bang release train of all of the projects in Springdom, and they've been compatibility tested to work with each other, as well as the metric ton of third-party open source that we do testing with.

349
00:21:24,540 --> 00:21:28,340
And you can find information about that online on the Spring IO platform page.

350
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:34,180
But so, yeah, the short version is there's a fast lane and a slow lane for people who work at different paces.

351
00:21:34,700 --> 00:21:34,940
Awesome.

352
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:35,240
Yeah.

353
00:21:36,380 --> 00:21:45,600
You know, one of the things that I guess I look forward to, and you surprise me as much as you do everyone at this company, once a month when you share the Maven download numbers about Spring Boot.

354
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:54,060
And so it's a good way for us to get a sense of the growth of the project, and it's not a perfect metric, but it's something, right?

355
00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:55,100
And it demonstrates growth.

356
00:21:55,220 --> 00:22:04,400
So I guess the question is, tell me a little bit about the growth of Spring Boots and which of the projects, because there are lots of projects, are you seeing more hockey stick growth than others?

357
00:22:04,860 --> 00:22:05,000
Right.

358
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,480
Yeah, I mean, certainly the one that blows them all away is the Spring Framework, right?

359
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:09,860
I mean, that's the core base of the stack.

360
00:22:09,860 --> 00:22:15,340
Yeah, Spring Boot is sort of an alternative to Spring Framework at that level.

361
00:22:15,420 --> 00:22:16,440
It's sort of the base of the stack.

362
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:18,840
All the other projects in the ecosystem build on top of it.

363
00:22:19,540 --> 00:22:23,520
It used to be a truism, you know, issues with Maven numbers aside, right?

364
00:22:23,540 --> 00:22:24,960
We know that it's not perfect.

365
00:22:25,700 --> 00:22:31,120
The number gets inflated by CI builds, but we don't report on Gradle numbers, and there's all kinds of issues with it.

366
00:22:31,140 --> 00:22:31,480
But you know what?

367
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,760
At least it's an apples-to-apples compare every month, and the trend line is what matters.

368
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:39,360
So, you know, certainly Spring Framework has blown away everything in terms of download numbers.

369
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:52,640
But aside from that, Spring Security has always, always and always been the number two project in the ecosystem, which we always, I always took to mean an indicator of, hey, folks are actually going to production with this stuff, right?

370
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,920
Because they're going to, you know, they need to secure it and put on some controls.

371
00:22:56,660 --> 00:23:03,700
So, you know, lately Spring Boot has actually eclipsed Spring Security in terms of total number of downloads.

372
00:23:03,700 --> 00:23:12,460
So it is now the number two ecosystem project, which makes sense if you think about it, because it's going to grow to kind of fit the headroom that Spring Framework has.

373
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:12,720
Yeah.

374
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:13,080
Right?

375
00:23:13,500 --> 00:23:25,540
But looking within the ecosystem itself, security is definitely, you know, almost always on top in terms of the number of projects, followed by quickly by Spring Cloud and Spring Data, which are coming up fast.

376
00:23:25,700 --> 00:23:32,680
I'm not sure which one's beating out which one this month, but Spring Data has been a perennial high downloader for many years.

377
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:40,000
But what I think is really surprising is I have never seen a Spring project come up the current as quickly as Spring Cloud in terms of the downloads.

378
00:23:40,120 --> 00:23:42,540
It is already at, like, a million maven downloads a month plus.

379
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:47,340
And that puts it in, like, the top three, top four.

380
00:23:47,700 --> 00:23:47,840
Wow.

381
00:23:47,940 --> 00:23:49,500
A lot of that's config server.

382
00:23:49,900 --> 00:23:51,080
I think we've talked about right now.

383
00:23:51,220 --> 00:23:51,440
Yeah.

384
00:23:51,660 --> 00:23:51,860
Yep.

385
00:23:51,860 --> 00:23:52,200
Exactly.

386
00:23:52,340 --> 00:23:54,400
A lot of that, I think, is the popularity of config server.

387
00:23:54,580 --> 00:23:59,700
And then just the popularity of microservice architecture in general, I think, is really putting a lot of air into that.

388
00:24:00,020 --> 00:24:00,180
Awesome.

389
00:24:00,180 --> 00:24:01,980
And people looking to build distributed systems at the app level.

390
00:24:02,120 --> 00:24:02,400
Absolutely.

391
00:24:03,180 --> 00:24:14,740
So, you know, I wanted to get y'all's take, especially with your knowing where the stink of all the rotting bodies are thing, Peter, like of the kind of, like, poofy pants reaction that all this got.

392
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:28,620
And it seems like, as often happens, it's sort of like there's a pretty big, deep ditch of nuance where people can, like, dive into and kind of, like, Rorschach their way into, like, however they want to interpret this stuff.

393
00:24:28,620 --> 00:24:38,380
So, I think the, so it seems to me that, like, if I were to distill down what the report is saying, I mean, I said it, and I shouldn't say report.

394
00:24:38,540 --> 00:24:39,880
It's more of, like, an opinion piece.

395
00:24:40,580 --> 00:24:45,560
But what it's saying is that, and I summarized this already, is that, like, so there's a new way of doing development.

396
00:24:46,120 --> 00:24:54,700
And the way, if you were just to get the stock, like, JEE stuff, it's not really going to support that.

397
00:24:54,740 --> 00:24:56,800
And it's not going to be your best bit for doing it.

398
00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:07,400
And then, on the other side, you have the fantastically named people who are, like, the guardians of JEE, which I guess, you know, sort of tells you what their response is going to be.

399
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:08,380
Right.

400
00:25:08,620 --> 00:25:16,640
And their interpretation when they go down into that mired ditch is, like, well, they're saying JEE is dead and that we might as well go delete it all.

401
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:18,960
And that's obviously demonstrably false.

402
00:25:20,220 --> 00:25:27,640
Because, as they point out, like, there's all these things, even in the, you know, you just sort of catalog the momentum behind.

403
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:45,660
I guess what's traditionally been, at least in a straw person kind of way, like one of the main competitors of JEE, but as I'm about to say, all, many and many, if not all, of these JEE frameworks are often used in all of, in enterprise uses of Java.

404
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:52,700
Which is to say, you wouldn't just go delete all this Java E stuff, there's just new ways of using it and new ways of doing things.

405
00:25:52,740 --> 00:25:57,960
And it seems like that sort of nuance, which has always existed in the Java enterprise world, right?

406
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:09,820
It's always been sort of the fact that whether you're 100% using JEE or just using the bits and pieces that you want, like, both of those things are totally normal ways of doing things.

407
00:26:10,460 --> 00:26:26,680
And more of, I mean, I forget who it was, but one of the responses that summarized it well is I think, and it wouldn't have been that interesting of, well, it would have been interesting, but for a different reason, is more pointing out, like, it's probably not a great idea to just use WebSphere and WebLogic.

408
00:26:27,260 --> 00:26:31,220
Like, I mean, to, like, I think that's kind of the thrust of the report.

409
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:37,460
And instead, there's this new way of doing development that's probably a better way of going about doing things.

410
00:26:37,460 --> 00:26:42,700
So, that's a bunch of statements, but I mean, like, am I wrong?

411
00:26:42,740 --> 00:26:48,220
It was about a little over 10 years since I actually programmed in Java, but, like, hasn't it always been this way?

412
00:26:48,380 --> 00:26:57,020
Like, it's always been the case that JEE is really slow, and there's always, like, in the JCP, there's always a bunch of, like, vendor stink stuff.

413
00:26:57,020 --> 00:26:59,420
Going on that's always annoying, and it's lagging.

414
00:26:59,500 --> 00:27:07,900
And it's just, like, I feel like this is more a description of what's always been going on in the Java enterprise world than sort of, like, some gigantic thing to freak out about.

415
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,440
It's been going on since 2004.

416
00:27:10,900 --> 00:27:17,420
I mean, when I was at WebLogic, part of what kept the success and part of what made it be the default choice at the time, right?

417
00:27:17,460 --> 00:27:21,040
I mean, back then, it was Sun, Oracle Database, WebLogic Server.

418
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:22,860
You know, that was your default web stack.

419
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:24,460
That was how you got off client server, man.

420
00:27:24,900 --> 00:27:26,720
That's how you got to the internet, right?

421
00:27:26,900 --> 00:27:35,860
And, you know, they've been, since Spring came out in 2004, you know, a lot of the ISVs that we were partnering with at the time, you know, they said, well, see ya.

422
00:27:35,940 --> 00:27:36,780
We don't need you anymore.

423
00:27:36,860 --> 00:27:42,360
We've got Apache Tomcat now, and we can get all the Java EE features on top of Tomcat.

424
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:57,100
We, you know, Spring decoupled Java EE feature set from a Java EE server and allowed you to just run it on a servlet engine, where Spring Boot takes it one level further and decouples Java EE and then a whole lot of other stuff that Java EE doesn't even address.

425
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,080
decouples that from the servlet engine and just says, hey, all I need is a JVM.

426
00:28:01,700 --> 00:28:02,620
That's it, right?

427
00:28:02,660 --> 00:28:11,460
So there's this constant trend of sort of less infrastructure to boot up before, pardon the pun, to boot up before you can get to work.

428
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,180
And, I mean, that's been happening since 2004.

429
00:28:14,380 --> 00:28:15,380
So it's not a new trend.

430
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:27,000
I think what they're calling out, though, is that Oracle and IBM, you know, the best practice at the time for many years was to spackle over the revenue losses by,

431
00:28:27,580 --> 00:28:33,740
counting the revenue numbers and bundling the revenue numbers from layered products on top of the application server.

432
00:28:33,860 --> 00:28:46,540
In Oracle's case, there's things like Suite or Soa Suite or other things that were required WebLogic as a runtime environment, but nobody was really using WebLogic as a platform for custom app dev.

433
00:28:46,540 --> 00:28:48,480
They were just using the app that it ran in, right?

434
00:28:48,900 --> 00:28:49,020
Right.

435
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:55,360
And because Oracle actually did a fairly credible job of taking WebLogic and integrating it across their middleware portfolio.

436
00:28:57,580 --> 00:29:03,860
They have a long and glorious history of throwing out their middleware stack even before I joined on in 2008.

437
00:29:04,420 --> 00:29:05,660
But, yeah, so not a new trend.

438
00:29:05,780 --> 00:29:19,260
I think what they're just calling is that, wow, you know, SaaS, cloud, other things are eroding those top-level products from IBM and Oracle enough that they can no longer obscure the core app server revenue loss.

439
00:29:19,740 --> 00:29:20,260
Does that make sense?

440
00:29:20,660 --> 00:29:21,500
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

441
00:29:21,780 --> 00:29:34,480
No, I think the way you bundle together your app dev stack is always – it's not as clear-cut as, like, Atlassian, for example, which has distinct product SKUs and they sell like that.

442
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:46,300
I mean, it's such is the nature of a solution sort of sale, which, you know, back when I was an analyst, very annoying and tedious, especially our buddy's son would never break out their software revenue.

443
00:29:46,580 --> 00:29:48,640
Always made it very difficult to figure out what's going on.

444
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,900
Yeah, I'm sure it's super irritating for analysts.

445
00:29:51,020 --> 00:29:51,540
Yeah, exactly.

446
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,120
And, you know, maybe this is comeuppance, right?

447
00:29:55,740 --> 00:29:56,240
That's right.

448
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:57,860
Yeah, a little bit.

449
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:02,860
And this comes up in cloud, too, as Microsoft doesn't make out their cloud numbers, and Amazon does now.

450
00:30:03,060 --> 00:30:05,660
But so, I mean, we're probably doing this again with cloud.

451
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:12,940
But, you know, to that point, Peter, so I assume that this market guy didn't surprise you when this came out.

452
00:30:13,020 --> 00:30:18,040
So, I mean, this was something that, you know, Forrester said, why are you still using classic Java app servers six years ago?

453
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,100
I mean, that was a blog post they had six years ago.

454
00:30:20,220 --> 00:30:21,260
Redmonk talks about this.

455
00:30:21,460 --> 00:30:21,560
Yeah.

456
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,600
So, I mean, was this a hot take?

457
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:24,760
No.

458
00:30:24,940 --> 00:30:40,540
I mean, you know, one of the Google engineers had a hilarious tweet about, you know, when you're sort of getting up in arms about Gartner being a little too progressive and forward-looking, you know, in their reports, it's time to sit down and think about what the heck you're saying.

459
00:30:41,620 --> 00:30:43,760
So, definitely not a hot take.

460
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:50,440
I think they're just acknowledging what I just said in terms of it's starting to show up in their revenue numbers now, and they can't obscure it anymore.

461
00:30:50,620 --> 00:30:55,060
And, therefore, it gives the analyst something to, you know, chew on.

462
00:30:55,240 --> 00:31:08,400
And they've been, you know, the trend in the Java EE community has been to continually prune the scope of the API and repackage it into ever smaller scope to kind of start shedding off what's become irrelevant over the course of a decade.

463
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,080
And there's still things that are certainly relevant in Java EE.

464
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:16,760
And even Gartner points out at the end of that report, right, there's still quite a lot of revenue over there, right?

465
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,120
But it's just they're calling the – they're signaling the shift.

466
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:25,860
They're just saying that things are, you know, things are headed in a – unquestionably headed in a new direction.

467
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:27,860
So, man, it's also – yeah, please, go ahead.

468
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:34,100
I was going to say, so this is a little bit like asking the fox to describe how the hen conveniently located itself in its mouth.

469
00:31:34,740 --> 00:31:43,780
But, like, what's the deal with, like, oracles, like, I don't know, digging in their heels and, like, weirdness about the agenda?

470
00:31:43,780 --> 00:31:48,340
Like, if I remember back in, like – I shouldn't say if I remember because I went and reread this stuff.

471
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,640
Back in July, they were like, ah, we're going to delay something.

472
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,740
And then there was some stink and then they weren't going to delay something or something.

473
00:31:54,880 --> 00:32:02,140
Like, it seems like – it seems like almost going back to, like, back when it was Hudson instead of Jenkins.

474
00:32:02,380 --> 00:32:06,360
Like, oracles never quite figured out, like, open community management.

475
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,780
And, like – and again, what with the weird fox metaphor.

476
00:32:10,460 --> 00:32:17,020
But, like, what's been – like, all the way up to the present, like, what's their relationship with something like Java?

477
00:32:17,140 --> 00:32:19,020
Like, what do you think their motivations are?

478
00:32:19,700 --> 00:32:20,620
Totally, yeah.

479
00:32:21,220 --> 00:32:26,840
You know, I think it's – for them, you know, certainly their middleware business was predicated on it, right?

480
00:32:26,980 --> 00:32:28,560
You know, a good chunk of their middleware business.

481
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:37,700
A lot of other things, if you look at – I think it was called Fusion was the announcement at the time, Oracle's Fusion middleware.

482
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:46,960
And then, you know, Thomas Curran and I think at the time it was Ted Farrell had hatched a plan to rewrite Oracle apps, which is a huge moneymaker for that.

483
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:48,440
Huge moneymaker.

484
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:50,080
And write that all in ADF.

485
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:54,760
And all of ADF and JDeveloper is, in fact, in – wait for it – Java, right?

486
00:32:55,100 --> 00:33:00,700
So, there's definitely a long-term, you know, investment protection thing for them.

487
00:33:00,940 --> 00:33:03,780
And I think also, you know, when they bought Sun, they got MySQL.

488
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,560
You know, they got a bunch of other great things out of that acquisition.

489
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:11,200
So, you know, I think it was long-term investment protection for them.

490
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:21,300
But the thing is, with Java EE specifically, you know, I think what that Gartner report points out is that there's more going on in 2016 and 2017 than JVM.

491
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:27,340
And, you know, their – Oracle's investment is going into their cloud services, right?

492
00:33:27,460 --> 00:33:35,240
They're not – they can't afford to invest in something like Java EE because it's not making them any money and hasn't been since around 2005.

493
00:33:36,260 --> 00:33:43,760
You know, their layered products certainly make money, but those are, I think, what the report is calling out, finally starting to decline because of SaaS, because of cloud.

494
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:50,540
You know, and they're just – you know, and like I said, the trend and the Java EE specs themselves have been shrinking.

495
00:33:50,940 --> 00:33:54,100
You had something called Java EE Web Profiler introduced a number of years ago.

496
00:33:54,180 --> 00:33:54,780
What was that?

497
00:33:55,140 --> 00:34:00,320
It was pruning a bunch of Java EE and making a smaller scope of Java EE APIs.

498
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:08,280
I mean, I think it was originally around 33 JSRs or 33 APIs, and even nonstandard efforts like the micro profile from Red Hat.

499
00:34:08,740 --> 00:34:15,340
You know, I think right now they're talking about single-digit numbers of APIs like CDI, JAX-RS, Servlet, a few other things.

500
00:34:15,740 --> 00:34:18,480
I mean, that's what it's come down to, right?

501
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:20,300
You know, those are the parts that are still relevant.

502
00:34:20,740 --> 00:34:25,840
Ironically, those are the parts that Spring Framework takes dependency on, things like Servlet that are super ubiquitous.

503
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:34,840
But, yeah, Oracle's investment, they are – you know, they've got to catch up a lot on the cloud, and they are hell-bent on doing so, and that's where all of their engineering effort is going.

504
00:34:35,780 --> 00:34:44,540
So, I just see it as they just literally can't afford to do it all, and they've got to make business decisions, and Java EE is getting the short stick.

505
00:34:44,740 --> 00:34:53,760
So, who would you say – like I said, I'm like 11 years out of date, although nominally I followed this stuff when I was an analyst, so I guess I knew what was going on then.

506
00:34:54,220 --> 00:34:58,800
But, like, who would you say are the big Java community leaders nowadays?

507
00:34:59,140 --> 00:35:03,740
Like, you know, whether it's commercial or not commercial, like what companies and people would you name?

508
00:35:03,740 --> 00:35:08,080
Yeah, I mean, revenue aside, you know, if you count by revenue, obviously it's IBM and Oracle.

509
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:17,120
But if you look at thought leadership and innovation, you know, it's – the people that have been getting it done in the Java EE community are really this – I think what they call the gang of four.

510
00:35:17,380 --> 00:35:24,680
You know, it's IBM Liberty, a company called Pyara, I think, which is like a glass fish distro, if memory serves.

511
00:35:26,340 --> 00:35:31,860
Wildfly Swarm from Red Hat slash JBoss and an open source project called TommyE.

512
00:35:32,500 --> 00:35:36,200
And those are the folks that are sort of innovating outside the spec and getting it done.

513
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:41,240
They're doing, funny enough, exactly what Spring has been doing since 2004, innovating outside the spec and getting it done.

514
00:35:42,740 --> 00:35:44,020
You know, so, yeah.

515
00:35:45,260 --> 00:35:52,120
You know, they just – yeah, they're, you know, they're just – they're stuck out innovating outside the spec.

516
00:35:52,380 --> 00:35:56,580
And they're doing their best, but, you know, it's a committee-based process.

517
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:05,500
And, you know, at a time of disruptive innovation like we're experiencing now where the whole stack is up for grabs, there is no standard option by definition.

518
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:12,140
You know, people are just – there's so much white space right now that people are just – you know, they're looking for an option, right?

519
00:36:12,140 --> 00:36:16,600
That's why opinionated solutions are so popular these days because it's like, great, you have a frigging opinion.

520
00:36:17,020 --> 00:36:18,660
You've got a stack that's integrated.

521
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:19,960
I love you, right?

522
00:36:20,020 --> 00:36:22,980
You're an option, you're a viable option, yay, right?

523
00:36:23,100 --> 00:36:24,040
So, yeah.

524
00:36:24,300 --> 00:36:28,340
Well, and the spring adoption trends have been pretty clear, especially spring boot adoption trends.

525
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:37,800
I mean, one of the – as we think about the developers who are using this, so as we get past the, you know, vendor inside baseball of how to prioritize, if I'm a developer and I'm an enterprise, they can have what to do.

526
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:43,940
Part of the market guide said you should have a plan today to figure out what to do with your more obsolete JE stuff.

527
00:36:44,060 --> 00:36:47,560
You'd be thinking about, you know, is JavaE right for my cloud-native apps?

528
00:36:47,580 --> 00:36:49,220
They say no, pretty straightforward.

529
00:36:49,460 --> 00:36:52,180
But more importantly, what's an enterprise to do here?

530
00:36:52,260 --> 00:36:55,640
Should they be thinking about containerizing their existing stuff?

531
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:57,260
Should they be thinking about lifting and shifting?

532
00:36:57,800 --> 00:36:58,740
You know, sure.

533
00:36:58,980 --> 00:37:02,640
I mean, Pivotal spends a lot of time helping companies modernize onto something like Spring Boot.

534
00:37:02,780 --> 00:37:09,260
But, you know, Peter, as you're thinking about the Fortune 500 company that comes in going, gosh, half my estate is JavaE.

535
00:37:09,340 --> 00:37:10,340
What am I supposed to do?

536
00:37:10,820 --> 00:37:14,820
What is some good advice that you've seen now from Gartner and others for helping modernize here?

537
00:37:15,220 --> 00:37:25,160
So, actually, I owe a lot of my insights to Rohit Kalipur and Larry Dino's team who's out there doing this every day, Pivotal Service folks that are out there in the trenches.

538
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,240
And that's where I've gotten some of my – a good chunk of my insights.

539
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:35,840
But, you know, I think at the highest level, you know, you're faced with a – you can re-platform – you can kind of freeze things in place.

540
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:44,200
And in some cases, you can dockerize them if it's an application, if it's a JavaE application that isn't particularly revenue-generating, particularly business-critical, right?

541
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:46,800
Maybe just let it run, right?

542
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,280
And, you know, kind of freeze it, neutralize it.

543
00:37:49,580 --> 00:37:51,040
You're not going to iterate on it much.

544
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:52,040
You're not going to maintain it much.

545
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,660
Just if there's no business imperative to rewrite it, you're not going to get the funding for that project eternally anyway.

546
00:37:56,820 --> 00:38:02,220
So just figure out a way to neutralize it and kind of freeze it in time, right, for as long as you can.

547
00:38:02,380 --> 00:38:08,860
That's a viable strategy until, you know, Oracle's end-of-life support terms for certain things run out.

548
00:38:08,860 --> 00:38:23,560
But I think, you know, that's one place where Oracle does well in terms of, you know, revenue, right, with the Computer Associates model of kind of cleaning up and milking everything you can out of, you know, long-term, slow-moving type of applications.

549
00:38:23,720 --> 00:38:24,640
So that's one strategy.

550
00:38:25,460 --> 00:38:32,260
Second is, you know, if we're talking about in the category of existing apps, Richard, which I think is what you said, right?

551
00:38:32,380 --> 00:38:34,600
Existing apps because new apps is sort of a different answer.

552
00:38:34,860 --> 00:38:37,220
I mean, new apps, yeah, they're pretty clear on where you should go.

553
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,280
But, yeah, keep looking at existing portfolios.

554
00:38:39,580 --> 00:38:39,780
Right.

555
00:38:39,940 --> 00:38:43,200
And then so there's a process that we go through called replatforming.

556
00:38:43,660 --> 00:38:50,020
That's an option for, you know, hey, this app, it's not super business critical.

557
00:38:50,220 --> 00:38:51,200
It's not the core of my business.

558
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:55,300
But, you know, I can't freeze it in time anymore.

559
00:38:55,800 --> 00:39:00,140
The end-of-life policy for the various vendors involved in the mix have come up in my face.

560
00:39:00,300 --> 00:39:08,240
I'm forced to move for one of those reasons or some other reason that's business-related, ideally, right, and not because you got painted into a corner.

561
00:39:09,140 --> 00:39:13,540
But the replatforming is sort of like, let's take a look at this Java EE application.

562
00:39:14,340 --> 00:39:28,620
And I think if you can paint a little X and Y axis in your mind, you know, the more Java EE nonstandard vendor-specific or extended Java EE features you use,

563
00:39:28,620 --> 00:39:35,420
the harder it is to kind of replatform, the more you kind of stuck with the sort of trend that started happening around 2004,

564
00:39:35,940 --> 00:39:45,120
which was stick with servlets and use Java EE servers as more of a web app container as opposed to things like transactions or messaging and stuff like that.

565
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:46,440
Although, actually, that's not fair.

566
00:39:46,500 --> 00:39:47,520
There's still a lot of messaging usage.

567
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:54,400
But, you know, the deeper you got into Java EE, the more difficult it can be to replatform.

568
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:59,000
But if you're one of those many people that in the last decade has kind of stuck with it more as the web container,

569
00:39:59,420 --> 00:40:03,820
you're probably in decent shape, and you just need to be looking for certain 12-factor violations,

570
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:11,120
things like local disk usage dependencies, you know, stateful instances of stateful stuff, stateful session beans,

571
00:40:11,940 --> 00:40:15,020
in-memory session persistence that maybe you've set to go to the disk,

572
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,180
Java transactions where you're using the file system, et cetera.

573
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:24,100
That kind of stuff can be replatformed, and you remove those 12-factor violations.

574
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:28,220
The absolute minimum of them just to get to work on the cloud, right?

575
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:31,500
So that's like, I'm going to invest the least amount of effort.

576
00:40:31,900 --> 00:40:33,280
I'm going to get the least amount of return.

577
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:38,640
But that's maybe what's appropriate for your particular class of business app that's not super mission critical,

578
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,640
but, geez, I can't leave it sitting alone anymore to die like a mainframe app.

579
00:40:42,740 --> 00:40:47,160
And maybe that's the first step to getting them onto APaaS in Gardner terms, an application platform.

580
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,180
Like, now they run nicely on Cloud Foundry.

581
00:40:49,260 --> 00:40:52,060
They run on other places, even if they're not yet optimized.

582
00:40:52,240 --> 00:40:52,640
Right.

583
00:40:52,780 --> 00:40:54,840
It can run, period.

584
00:40:55,220 --> 00:40:56,580
It's not taking advantage of.

585
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:57,340
It's not exploiting.

586
00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:58,280
It's not designed for.

587
00:40:58,380 --> 00:41:02,300
And that's what Gardner is saying in terms of develop net new stuff this way.

588
00:41:02,700 --> 00:41:04,600
In fact, I would add a little nuance to that.

589
00:41:04,900 --> 00:41:08,340
I think monolithic applications, maybe not necessarily three-tiered,

590
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:12,320
but monolithic applications certainly can run on the cloud as long as they've been,

591
00:41:12,460 --> 00:41:15,700
you know, as long as those 12-factor violations have been engineered out.

592
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,560
And it's certainly appropriate for applications to begin life as a monolith.

593
00:41:19,820 --> 00:41:21,780
It's just, in fact, there's great talks.

594
00:41:21,900 --> 00:41:24,500
I don't know, Coté, have you ever run across this guy, Simon Brown?

595
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:26,000
He's a frequent speaker.

596
00:41:26,340 --> 00:41:30,120
He has an amazing talk on monolith, on modular monoliths.

597
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:34,720
And it's like, if you're going to get started with a net new app today, design your monolith,

598
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,120
but design it with future decomposition in mind.

599
00:41:37,540 --> 00:41:39,380
You know, use domain-driven design concepts.

600
00:41:39,660 --> 00:41:40,920
That's a great way to start.

601
00:41:41,620 --> 00:41:45,700
If it's a business-critical application, you might just want to, you know, skip right past Go,

602
00:41:45,780 --> 00:41:49,380
do not collect $200, and go right to Cloud Native and start designing microservice.

603
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:55,900
It's like, I think everyone knows that the modular monolith nature of the Power Rangers robot

604
00:41:55,900 --> 00:41:58,440
always defeats the single-unit monster.

605
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:02,120
Now, they never learn that it's always going to become giant at the end,

606
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:04,820
so why don't you just become giant at the beginning and stomp it?

607
00:42:05,180 --> 00:42:08,080
Maybe there's some energy crisis, but, you know, it's more modular.

608
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,640
Everything we needed to know, we learned in kindergarten.

609
00:42:10,940 --> 00:42:11,900
It's true, Coté.

610
00:42:12,140 --> 00:42:12,740
It really is.

611
00:42:13,580 --> 00:42:16,660
You know, I had a, as you were going over that, I was thinking,

612
00:42:17,220 --> 00:42:21,820
and there's no, as much, many things I ramble on about here,

613
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:23,440
there's no easy solution to it.

614
00:42:23,460 --> 00:42:29,160
But it seems like there's this constant tension that I, for lack of a better phrase,

615
00:42:29,220 --> 00:42:35,040
an architect of a project has to go through of thinking about which standard you're writing to.

616
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:39,000
And you were kind of pointing out, like, I mean, you know, JE and Java is a standard,

617
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,800
so you could write your application to those standards.

618
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:48,560
But then the problem becomes when a new standard comes about, like, I would argue, I don't know,

619
00:42:48,660 --> 00:42:49,500
coding to Linux?

620
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:52,940
Like, I don't know if that's how people would characterize Docker,

621
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:58,900
but, like, let's say coding to the internet, you know, HTTP and to the way that Linux mostly works.

622
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:03,460
Like, then it's, like, as we were going over, it starts to be kind of annoying to make, like,

623
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,800
12-factor apps if you've, like, done all this JEE stuff.

624
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:12,820
And, you know, I think back when Ruby and LAMP were coming about,

625
00:43:12,900 --> 00:43:16,440
it was kind of like the Linux-y internet threat to the standard of JEE.

626
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,840
But I guess it does come, and again, it's a difficult thing to figure out.

627
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:24,540
But as this write-up kind of addresses, you know, this write-up saying, like,

628
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:30,100
you should do things in a cloud-native way, which, you know, once you take some Pepsid AC

629
00:43:30,100 --> 00:43:34,420
or whichever one and get your sort of, like, fire in the belly about JEE taken care of,

630
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,760
it is good to ask the question, well, what does that mean?

631
00:43:37,940 --> 00:43:39,440
What is a cloud-native thing?

632
00:43:39,620 --> 00:43:42,620
And, you know, I think it gets to this muddled thing I'm going over,

633
00:43:42,700 --> 00:43:46,840
which is it's a different set of norms and conventions that you follow to write your –

634
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,680
design your application so that it's more portable to some extent.

635
00:43:49,820 --> 00:43:54,500
And, you know, another sort of annoying phrase that people use this is, like, lock-in,

636
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:59,620
which, as any good vendor such as ourselves would do, it's always a question of, like,

637
00:43:59,620 --> 00:44:01,100
well, you're always going to have lock-in.

638
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:03,440
You just need to choose who your lock-in is, right?

639
00:44:04,580 --> 00:44:05,100
Right. And where.

640
00:44:05,660 --> 00:44:11,300
Exactly. And so, I mean, I think that's, you know, and I've gotten some requests from people

641
00:44:11,300 --> 00:44:16,040
or been involved in conversations about, like, we need to better define what cloud-native is.

642
00:44:16,060 --> 00:44:19,440
And I think that's more of what's interesting over the next couple of years is to say,

643
00:44:19,900 --> 00:44:25,520
whatever this new set of conventions and norms is, what does that look like for various communities?

644
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:29,940
And how should people be thinking about selecting it for new applications or moving things over?

645
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:34,200
I mean, as you mentioned, you know, we had Rohit on a while ago to talk about moving from

646
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:39,260
traditional, you know, ESBs to different ones and stuff like that.

647
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:43,780
And I think that's more of what's meaty and interesting is how to update things and how to

648
00:44:43,780 --> 00:44:45,760
fit to the new norms that exist.

649
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,080
Yeah. I always love reading about our case studies to take.

650
00:44:49,140 --> 00:44:51,800
As you say, there's some apps that you just kind of freeze in place.

651
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,980
There's non-mission critical things that you do some light refactoring on.

652
00:44:55,060 --> 00:44:57,040
And then there's the, this thing powers our business.

653
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:58,140
We need to modernize it.

654
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,080
And we love those as well when it comes into how do we make these more flexible, continuously

655
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:02,580
delivered.

656
00:45:03,260 --> 00:45:08,760
The last question I wanted to ask you, Peter, was, you know, part of the almost comical back

657
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:12,680
and forth on like the InfoQ article, which at some point I enjoy it.

658
00:45:12,820 --> 00:45:13,840
It's such insanity.

659
00:45:14,140 --> 00:45:15,000
Oh, I'm out of popcorn.

660
00:45:15,180 --> 00:45:16,240
I don't have any left in my house.

661
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,260
But I mean, I think to be clear, like, hey, we love Java.

662
00:45:19,540 --> 00:45:19,700
Yeah.

663
00:45:19,900 --> 00:45:22,860
You know, we depend on Java E for a number of things.

664
00:45:22,980 --> 00:45:26,900
So I guess I want to close on a positive note of I think we're all friends here.

665
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:31,120
I think we're just trying to look at how are we helping customers deliver better software

666
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:31,640
faster?

667
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:36,680
And the consensus is seeming to be around cloud native patterns, flexible application

668
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:37,260
platforms.

669
00:45:37,260 --> 00:45:40,740
And that's just a little incompatible with some of the legacy tool set.

670
00:45:40,940 --> 00:45:42,500
Doesn't mean it wasn't great in its time.

671
00:45:42,540 --> 00:45:44,500
It doesn't mean you couldn't even use it now.

672
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:45,740
It's just not meant for it.

673
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:46,140
Exactly.

674
00:45:46,220 --> 00:45:48,340
So I mean, in your mind, are we all friends here?

675
00:45:48,780 --> 00:45:49,360
Yeah, totally.

676
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:55,980
I mean, you know, we collaborate quite a bit with the Java E JSR expert groups around APIs

677
00:45:55,980 --> 00:45:57,620
like JPA.

678
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:03,880
I think they even kind of there was a proposal on the table for them to do an MVC JSR.

679
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,640
You know, they were consulting with Rawson, who's the lead for Spring MVC.

680
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:15,840
And, you know, so things like JPA, JMX, Servlet, obviously, Servlet being a lot of the base

681
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:17,860
of the stack of the Java ecosystem for the last decade.

682
00:46:18,220 --> 00:46:20,800
I mean, those are places where we certainly collaborate with.

683
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:25,320
I mean, we've inspired them on a number of things, certainly.

684
00:46:25,780 --> 00:46:28,460
But, I mean, stuff like JPA is mature.

685
00:46:28,660 --> 00:46:29,120
It's solid.

686
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:33,800
You know, it's, you know, you can argue whether or not you like having object-relational mapping

687
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:34,560
as a technology.

688
00:46:34,740 --> 00:46:37,260
But, I mean, they've done a pretty good job with some of these core specs.

689
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:39,600
They're not going anywhere, to your point.

690
00:46:39,720 --> 00:46:41,180
You know, people are probably going to still use them today.

691
00:46:41,300 --> 00:46:45,640
It's just being able to use them in a modular way and divorce them from the all-sing, all-dancing

692
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:49,480
container, you know, that makes things a little bit more flexible, right?

693
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:53,480
We need things to be self-contained in the cloud today, not, you know, hey, I need to lay

694
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:58,640
out this whole runtime that my app has to somehow fit all these sockets as a developer programmer.

695
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:02,320
And it's like, nope, I'm just going to bundle the dependencies I need in with the app, get

696
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:07,100
a nice self-contained little unit, and then I can CI script that until the cows come home

697
00:47:07,100 --> 00:47:11,800
and push it around and make it a mutable infrastructure, you know, as opposed to pets, not cattle, right?

698
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:12,700
That's right.

699
00:47:13,900 --> 00:47:14,460
All right.

700
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:18,580
And, yeah, I think just the interesting idea, you know, is with immutable infrastructure,

701
00:47:18,820 --> 00:47:20,060
and you mentioned Docker.

702
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:24,420
You know, a lot of people are saying, hey, well, can't I just Dockerize Java EE?

703
00:47:24,620 --> 00:47:29,380
And it's like, well, you know, the second you lay down an EE server as immutable infrastructure,

704
00:47:29,900 --> 00:47:31,760
you're sort of violating the whole concept of an app server.

705
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:36,280
I mean, the whole idea of an app server was, hey, I have a mutable process on top of the JVM.

706
00:47:36,380 --> 00:47:37,320
I'm going to deploy stuff to it.

707
00:47:37,340 --> 00:47:38,360
I'm going to undeploy to it.

708
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:39,620
I'm going to change configuration.

709
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:41,520
It's hold state, right?

710
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:48,800
Whereas Dockerizing a non-cluster Java EE app server, sure, it just boots up and runs the

711
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:50,420
same work file over and over and over again.

712
00:47:50,460 --> 00:47:51,340
That's its only job in life.

713
00:47:51,420 --> 00:47:53,040
I mean, what's the point of an app server then?

714
00:47:53,060 --> 00:47:56,160
It starts to look like a framework, a bunch of libraries on disk, which smells remarkably

715
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:58,240
like a framework and not an app server.

716
00:47:59,140 --> 00:48:02,880
So, you know, just Dockerizing Java EE doesn't get you cloud native either.

717
00:48:03,220 --> 00:48:05,840
But, well, listen, thanks so much for having us on.

718
00:48:05,900 --> 00:48:11,320
I think it's an exciting time, and, you know, we look forward to continuing to

719
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:16,820
collaborate with the Java EE folks on those specs and, you know, see that they're not going

720
00:48:16,820 --> 00:48:17,660
anywhere anytime soon.

721
00:48:17,820 --> 00:48:18,700
Make it spring awesome.

722
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:20,420
How do we, I'm going to steal the Coté line.

723
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:21,820
How do we find you on the interwebs?

724
00:48:22,260 --> 00:48:25,940
You can find me at Peter Humphrey with that pie eater, Dutch spelling.

725
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:26,560
Thanks, Coté.

726
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:34,760
Or I'm anonymously known as Spring Central in my web alter ego.

727
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:35,640
Very good.

728
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:35,960
Yeah.

729
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:38,700
I never realized it spells pie eater.

730
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:39,920
That's fantastic.

731
00:48:40,700 --> 00:48:41,160
Pie eater.

732
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:42,980
Showed you what I pay attention to.

733
00:48:43,820 --> 00:48:47,880
I got a box of pens for my ninth birthday from my aunt and uncle that said this pen did

734
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:52,640
belong to Dieter Humphrey because clearly I had to, you know, I misspelled my own name

735
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:53,960
and it was actually the German Dieter.

736
00:48:54,300 --> 00:48:54,600
Huh.

737
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:55,880
Yeah.

738
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:56,280
Yeah.

739
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:56,960
Yeah.

740
00:48:57,060 --> 00:49:01,180
Well, I mean, I mean, as, as I'm fond of saying with, with a funny name like mine, you can,

741
00:49:01,240 --> 00:49:05,020
you can imagine I'm obsessed with other curious names.

742
00:49:05,500 --> 00:49:05,860
Anyhow.

743
00:49:06,020 --> 00:49:06,380
Yeah.

744
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:09,740
You know, I, just as one last thing before I totally wrap up, I think, I think this is

745
00:49:09,740 --> 00:49:12,840
also, you know, we're kind of fond of commenting on industry analysts.

746
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:16,920
This is another, because you can access the report and all the commentary around it.

747
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:21,640
It's a good, it's a good study in industry analystness, if you will, uh, sort of all over

748
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:22,080
the board.

749
00:49:22,500 --> 00:49:24,380
So, uh, so that's fun as well.

750
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:28,120
Anyhow, uh, this is always, yeah, sure.

751
00:49:28,180 --> 00:49:30,400
This is always has been a Pivotal Conversations.

752
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:35,560
Like I said earlier, we're, we're like updating our CMS system or something like that.

753
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:39,640
Uh, but I'm going to put the show notes for this since there will be, uh, many of them

754
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:43,000
at cote.io slash conversations 47.

755
00:49:43,580 --> 00:49:45,600
Um, and maybe I'll put future ones there.

756
00:49:45,700 --> 00:49:46,040
We'll see.

757
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:51,260
But, uh, it would be great if you, if you liked this episode or even if you didn't dislike

758
00:49:51,260 --> 00:49:55,020
it, especially if you didn't dislike it, listen very carefully and do the following.

759
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:56,060
Not what you may like.

760
00:49:56,180 --> 00:50:01,300
It'd be good if you subscribe to it when in whatever, uh, overcast or iTunes, that's, that's

761
00:50:01,300 --> 00:50:02,380
always the best thing to do.

762
00:50:02,500 --> 00:50:06,460
And it's also good if you, uh, if you want to tell your friends about it or promote it,

763
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:07,600
do some word of mouth stuff.

764
00:50:07,720 --> 00:50:12,140
And it'd be great if you went and left to review and in iTunes or hit that little recommend

765
00:50:12,140 --> 00:50:13,740
thing in, uh, overcast.

766
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,260
I don't really know what any of those do, but.

767
00:50:16,260 --> 00:50:20,380
And it's always gratifying to see, uh, that there's more people listening and responding

768
00:50:20,380 --> 00:50:25,000
to this as delightful as it is for Richard and I just to sort of like, uh, talk at each

769
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:26,480
other and discuss rubber boots.

770
00:50:26,720 --> 00:50:29,160
It's always good to know that there's other people out there as well.

771
00:50:29,240 --> 00:50:30,720
So we'll see everyone next time.

772
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:31,440
Bye-bye.