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Well, here we are in lovely Las Vegas at, where are we, Caesar's Palace?

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Who is it that asked, does Caesar actually live here?

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I think that's from a movie.

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Anyways, we're here at the, what is it?

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This is the Gartner Application, no, what is it?

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Application Strategy and Something Summit.

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Yes, and I think it's normally called A-A-D-I, right?

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Application Architecture, Application Strategy and Solution Summit.

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Yeah, anyways, I mean, well, first, why don't you introduce yourself, guest?

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Hi there, I'm Rita Manachi, Head of Analyst Relations at Pivotal.

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I think you were on our maybe second or third episode, or maybe earlier, I forget.

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Anyways, so welcome back.

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Thanks for having me.

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Good job.

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So how would you characterize this conference?

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Like, I mean, as far as like what the topics and attendees are.

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So this is actually the first year they've combined their Digital Workforce and Apps Summit

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with the A-A-D-I Summit.

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A-A-D-I used to be really all about for application development leaders.

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So they talked a lot about application integration, application development, development languages.

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Now this explains why they have these little fish bowls of buttons where you pick out a button

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of like what you do.

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And one of them was, what was the phrase you used, workspace?

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Digital workplace.

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Right.

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I saw that as one of them.

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And I was thinking like, what is that like using Slack?

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And so now I understand it's a whole...

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Yeah, it is.

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It's that, it's also actually something we talked, that we talked about during one of the meetings

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earlier, I think physical space, which we haven't talked to Gartner much about, but, you know,

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or how Jeffrey Hammond of Forrester might look at it as developing spaces for developers

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or developer spaces.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, making sure you have a good garden for all your flowers.

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And they say it, topiary.

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Topiary.

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Topiary.

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Did you pick up the button?

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Are you wearing all the flare today?

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No, no.

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You know, there was a time in my life where I would try to get buttons and then I found

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that they just fall off.

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Right, like I would try to get the buttons that you put on like your laptop bag.

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But then like you'd be like getting your bag out of an overhead bin and they kind of fly

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off and it's just, it's just tragic.

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It is.

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Yeah, I feel like at a bunch of analyst events about, this is 2016, maybe about eight years

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ago, there was a lot of those little buttons that would be given up where there's a brad

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on one side and like you punch it through and put the thing over here.

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Like I've got like a Z one for mainframes and there's a 451.

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I haven't seen those too much.

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I think Salesforce is giving some away at their booth here, by the way.

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They were at reInvent last week.

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This is a little negative two item.

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Salesforce.

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Yeah.

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Well, so we're having a read on just because as promised, we wanted to have read on every

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now and then to tell us what's going on in analyst land.

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But before we get to that, we have our usual little spate of news.

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What do we have this week, Richard?

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Yeah, there was another conference in Vegas last week.

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A rodeo.

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Qualifying.

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Yeah, I think there's a lot of cowboys here this week.

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And at some point, I was a rodeo because it was freaking me out.

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There's a lot of cowboy hats.

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But yeah, no, last week there was a little cloud conference with some company in Seattle

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that's doing cloud stuff.

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So reInvent was last week.

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It was a big deal.

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Tons of announcements.

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I guess I don't know what the right metaphor is for what it's like.

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Disneyland for cloud people.

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Just it's the event.

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Everybody gets excited.

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Yeah.

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You fall asleep quickly.

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So it was a big deal.

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Lots of cool announcements.

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I don't think it defied any sort of classification.

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It was just, we're going to release a ton of stuff.

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Expand data and compute instances and app services and deep learning and all these really

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cool things.

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But yeah, no big theme short of we ship lots of things, which is a theme in itself.

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Yeah, it's like as one of my favorite books is called The Everything Store.

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They're like the everything cloud.

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They have a ton of stuff.

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Yeah, so you wrote like a summary of all the announcements, right?

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I did.

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I took a few hours on a Sunday and wrote up a summary of all the 28 whatever announcements.

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And again, I think for most, there's no way everyone's using all the services in AWS.

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It's almost like me with Microsoft Office.

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Like I use six features.

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Sure.

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But at least you know they're there if you want to use them.

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It's got to be the strategy at this point because this isn't like one thing is going

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to use all of these different parts of the platform.

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But hey, you have a lot of different choices in one place.

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It's just the deluge of keeping up.

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Yeah, so since you wrote a summary, what do you think was the most weird in a good way

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thing that was announced?

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Sort of weird like, oh, I guess novel is a word people would use.

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I mean, novel was the physical tractor trailer that moves data to AWS data centers.

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Is that like the mega snowball or whatever?

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AWS snowmobile.

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Yeah.

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So when I'm literally going to pull up a truck and load my data into it, it takes days,

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right?

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Yeah.

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I load up my data, which can take up to 10 days for whatever exabyte I'm loading and

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somebody drives it up.

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So that was pretty crazy stuff.

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Yeah.

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I forget the name of it.

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There's some old ancient IEEE jokester who there's a quote about like never underestimate

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the bandwidth of a station wagon with a bunch of tapes in it.

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And like, I remember people talk about data gravity a lot still, but like back in the

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height of data gravity talk, I'd always think like, well, you just go to Costco and buy some

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hard drives and stick it in an overnight FedEx thing, right?

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Like, I mean, obviously it sort of, you know, if you have petabytes of data, that's one thing,

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but still, you know, you just get a teamster.

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Well, you can get to the bandwidth story because clouds still notoriously charge a lot for

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bandwidth in the scheme of things.

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So uploading, you know, 50 petabytes, that's a bill.

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So it is cheaper to, you know, rent a couple of guys in a truck.

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Yeah.

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You know, what I've realized in looking at the rest of our news items is that you have

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now, you're filling out my other podcasts.

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I've got this guy, Matt Ray, and basically his job is to do all the work of the agenda

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and the news.

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And then now that's your job.

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This seems like a common co-host pattern that I have.

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I'm someone who loves summarizing news.

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Right.

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You're coasting on your looks with people who look for the chance to raise up the profile.

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So well played.

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You're not a seek out weakness.

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That's right.

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Well, there's one of these I know about.

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But that said also, so what's this thing that Netflix came out with?

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I mean, it's an OSS project per week at Netflix and they do a great job of it.

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Something called Holo.

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We've got the link in the notes here.

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It's just another interesting caching tool for how do I take advantage of caching in a

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different way.

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And I pointed it out mainly because since we're pretty good with Spring and Spring Cloud

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of trying to make these things easier for developers, it'll be interesting to see how do we keep

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following some of these.

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We've done it with Spinnaker.

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We keep building onto these Netflix things and making them Springified.

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Yeah.

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So I guess keep an eye on these.

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And really the call to action for listeners is if you want these things in Spring, it's

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good for us to know that.

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Because maybe we would actually prioritize making these into Spring Cloud projects or things.

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So I guess keep an eye on these Netflix projects and if they get you amped up, let us know.

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Yeah.

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You know, that makes me think.

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I remember speaking of the old days of when they used to have pins.

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Like I remember back in the open source days of the mid-2000s, there was always a lot of

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talk of like enterprises need to get more involved in open source.

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And I don't know if I really thought about it too much, but like there's a few other

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exceptions.

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But I think Netflix is like the first company that does that, like in a big, impactful way

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where a lot of open source software comes from Netflix.

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Whereas, you know, in let's say 2004, you wouldn't really expect that to happen, right?

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There were all the vendors doing open source things and they would always be clamoring for

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enterprises, they would say, to get involved.

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But not really that many would.

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And there must be other ones that I'm not thinking of, but there's, I don't think it's

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incredibly shocking.

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It might be mildly surprising, if you will, that like when an enterprise open source and

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stuff, but it's a lot more normal nowadays than it used to be.

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It is.

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But even at the same time, our friends at Allstate and Composed, I mean, they've open

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sourced a few different libraries and build things.

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And it's always fun when we do see that and can promote that.

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Again, I like that.

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And I think it's companies loosening the reins a little bit on their own open source strategy.

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Don't just consume it, actually contribute back.

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Yeah, yeah.

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That is handy.

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And then there's a new RabbitMQ release out?

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Yeah, I mean, you know, PCF and Pivotal really doubling down a bit on some of the data services

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now and into 2017.

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And RabbitMQ has really gotten a whole other investment from the company.

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And so you see a new Java client.

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And then what I thought was more interesting was there was some new components for things

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like metrics and performance that can integrate with things like Spring Boot.

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So if I like the actuator and I hit, you know, slash health and I want to view, hey, how much

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memory are things using?

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Now it can also pull in Rabbit metrics like, hey, how deep is my queue and what's going on

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there?

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And, you know, in the new PCF version coming out in the next couple of days, we're actually

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pulling Spring Boot things into the Apps Manager console.

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So as we have more data available, I think it makes things a lot more interesting when you're

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doing health monitoring and scaling and what have you.

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So just a cool advancement.

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RabbitMQ is a little engine that could just kind of continues to be, you know, power some

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of the biggest companies in the world without us making a big deal about it.

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Do you know at the top of your head how many, like, tiles we have now in Pivotal Cloud Foundry?

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Like, last I remember it was, like, 40-something.

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It's a lot, which is great.

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At the same time, you know, part of my job now in marketing is to help people understand

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when to use each.

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Ah, yes.

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Which is a great problem.

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When you hit the critical mass point of, like, when do you actually choose among them,

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that's a great point.

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And we must have, like, four or five data ones, right?

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Like, I mean, I'm kind of, if you match in queues, I mean, queues are sort of kind

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of data, but, like, we've got the MyraDB one and, like, and Redis, right?

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Or Redis.

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We have some Redis.

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We have some MySQL options.

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We have, there's a number of these that...

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There's a pop quiz here.

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Yeah, I know.

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Exactly.

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You're making me think through them.

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You know, and then you get integration, Azuqua, Solace Messaging.

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You just have a lot of different things, not to mention, look at the Google broker that

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lets you talk to Bigtable or lets you talk to Cloud SQL or Azure broker.

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So the data choices now, AeroSpike, there's others.

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All these different choices now.

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So what do you need when you need a relational database or NoSQL?

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Yeah, that's been one of the sort of undercurrent conversations around here at the Gartner

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conference we're at.

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I was trying to remember the name again.

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But it's sort of like, everyone's like, oh, databases.

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We should worry about those.

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Like, there's been a few people talking about how they have more inquiries about databases

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and how it fits in and things like that, which is...

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Which, I mean, it seems like a good sign of maturity.

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You sort of, like, learn a new way of development, learn this new technology, and you're like,

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oh, now we have data.

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Now we have data.

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Now I know.

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We've had a lot of conversations about that this week.

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And with a bunch of analysts as we get to that topic in a moment.

242
00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,720
But I like that some are actually trying to lead the conversation.

243
00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:26,980
Totally.

244
00:10:26,980 --> 00:10:28,960
It's not just waiting for their customers to ask them.

245
00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,940
They're also thinking about it because they're like, how come nobody's talking about this

246
00:10:31,940 --> 00:10:32,140
yet?

247
00:10:32,220 --> 00:10:34,180
I like that, when they actually try to lead an agenda.

248
00:10:34,740 --> 00:10:34,900
Yeah.

249
00:10:34,900 --> 00:10:35,520
Yeah, that's true.

250
00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:36,040
Yeah.

251
00:10:36,380 --> 00:10:37,960
So then, this is the last news item.

252
00:10:38,020 --> 00:10:39,520
The one that I actually know about.

253
00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:40,200
Well done.

254
00:10:40,300 --> 00:10:40,560
Yeah.

255
00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:43,100
I was trying to do some work this week.

256
00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,960
Like, so Anne Thomas, and you can speak to this too, Rita.

257
00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,200
I mean, you could have on the other things, but you need some coffee.

258
00:10:51,660 --> 00:10:52,580
I should have gotten some coffee.

259
00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:54,760
I was trying to be all nice, like I don't want to kill myself.

260
00:10:54,980 --> 00:10:57,560
But like, you know, why else am I alive?

261
00:10:57,760 --> 00:10:58,660
I should have some coffee.

262
00:10:59,100 --> 00:11:03,000
Anyways, so she came out with a, what's it called, a market monitor?

263
00:11:03,140 --> 00:11:03,580
Market guide.

264
00:11:03,620 --> 00:11:04,320
Market guide.

265
00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:09,660
And, you know, I think obviously from a pivotal perspective, the main takeaway we had is she's

266
00:11:09,660 --> 00:11:13,900
recommending doing all new application development in a cloud native style.

267
00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:20,600
And to maybe soften even the strength of her language is essentially like, you don't need

268
00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:21,340
to use JEE.

269
00:11:21,620 --> 00:11:26,760
I mean, she was essentially saying that the era of JEE, I still always want to say J2EE.

270
00:11:26,900 --> 00:11:27,080
I know.

271
00:11:27,180 --> 00:11:32,020
But that the era of enterprise Java was more or less over and that you should look to do

272
00:11:32,020 --> 00:11:33,360
cloud native things.

273
00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,280
I believe the word obsolete was used.

274
00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:35,920
Obsolete.

275
00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:36,700
Whoa.

276
00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:37,700
Yeah, I mean.

277
00:11:37,980 --> 00:11:38,660
Fighting words.

278
00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:43,420
You know, analysts get a good perspective of what vendors are doing, but then what customers

279
00:11:43,420 --> 00:11:43,920
are using.

280
00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:48,320
Like, we all say things as software vendors to try to help analysts know what's going on,

281
00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:49,760
but they're also listening to the customers.

282
00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:54,680
And, you know, in this case, I think it's looking at the trends that I think are pretty visible

283
00:11:54,680 --> 00:12:00,240
slash obvious for a little bit about, you know, lighter frameworks, 12-factor apps, cloud

284
00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:00,900
native stuff.

285
00:12:00,980 --> 00:12:04,200
That that is how, and again, her recommendation was, I don't care if it's a public cloud or

286
00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:04,480
not.

287
00:12:04,680 --> 00:12:06,260
Like, every app should be cloud native.

288
00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:11,040
I think for us, the reason we even highlight is I think it's a good validation that we bet

289
00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:16,700
on the right horse with application platforms and lightweight frameworks and that most importantly,

290
00:12:16,820 --> 00:12:19,740
that's what helps companies develop software faster and better.

291
00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:23,360
And I think it's just nice to see people, not us, saying that.

292
00:12:23,420 --> 00:12:23,700
Exactly.

293
00:12:24,220 --> 00:12:24,500
Yes.

294
00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:26,840
So what is that type of report?

295
00:12:27,740 --> 00:12:28,800
It's called the Market Guide.

296
00:12:28,940 --> 00:12:31,800
The Application Platforms Market Guide is the full title of that.

297
00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:36,020
And like, I mean, I think everyone knows the Gartner Magic Quadrant, which is sort of like,

298
00:12:36,380 --> 00:12:41,340
it's sort of like a multi-purpose other than being sort of like the equivalent of a Cinebite

299
00:12:41,340 --> 00:12:42,160
for vendors.

300
00:12:42,340 --> 00:12:43,880
Just come in and torture them gleefully.

301
00:12:44,620 --> 00:12:49,100
Like, it seems like it serves the purpose of, one, describing the leaders in the industry

302
00:12:49,100 --> 00:12:50,780
from a pure industry perspective.

303
00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:52,060
Oh, the MQ, you mean?

304
00:12:52,140 --> 00:12:52,940
Yeah, yeah, the MQ.

305
00:12:53,060 --> 00:12:58,560
But it also just feeds into purchasing behaviors and sort of like trying to rank, basically short

306
00:12:58,560 --> 00:12:58,840
listing.

307
00:12:59,100 --> 00:13:02,080
But so like, if you look at the, man, I don't know, I can't remember.

308
00:13:02,340 --> 00:13:03,180
The Market Guide.

309
00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:07,360
Like, what's the sort of like functional, does Gartner have a functional explanation for

310
00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:07,500
what it does?

311
00:13:07,500 --> 00:13:08,140
Yes, they do, actually.

312
00:13:08,140 --> 00:13:14,520
So they usually do them for markets that are either, have gotten, no longer require an

313
00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,400
MQ because the technologies are getting old or they're not being adopted.

314
00:13:17,900 --> 00:13:21,160
So markets that are kind of, not dying, but fading.

315
00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:21,760
Steady.

316
00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:22,280
Yeah.

317
00:13:22,460 --> 00:13:23,100
Steady to fading.

318
00:13:23,460 --> 00:13:23,760
There you go.

319
00:13:23,780 --> 00:13:24,560
Not really that interesting.

320
00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:25,840
Like ETL.

321
00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:26,460
Right.

322
00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:28,900
Well, application platforms, right?

323
00:13:29,180 --> 00:13:29,360
Yeah.

324
00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:31,480
App servers where it's like, well, here are your options.

325
00:13:31,620 --> 00:13:33,580
They're all kind of the same if you do feature for feature.

326
00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:34,340
Year over year.

327
00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:35,180
And here's the definition.

328
00:13:35,300 --> 00:13:36,580
It hasn't changed in 10 years.

329
00:13:36,820 --> 00:13:37,040
Right.

330
00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:38,480
But that's, obviously it has.

331
00:13:39,180 --> 00:13:46,180
Or brand new technology areas that are hard to, are like still being defined or there

332
00:13:46,180 --> 00:13:48,540
isn't as much revenue momentum that would warrant.

333
00:13:48,780 --> 00:13:53,140
So if you were to have like some circle diagram, the magic quadrant would be in the center and

334
00:13:53,140 --> 00:13:55,820
the market thingamajiggy would be around it.

335
00:13:55,820 --> 00:13:57,880
Like a layer of protective fat.

336
00:13:57,960 --> 00:13:58,980
It's either either old or new.

337
00:13:59,140 --> 00:13:59,580
Like in between.

338
00:14:00,220 --> 00:14:00,440
Yeah.

339
00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:01,280
Yeah.

340
00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:01,520
Yeah.

341
00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:02,920
We keep going to, how do you say it?

342
00:14:03,100 --> 00:14:03,500
Pay yards?

343
00:14:03,580 --> 00:14:04,340
I guess so, yeah.

344
00:14:04,740 --> 00:14:07,020
Apparently, I've discovered I have a weakness for French pastry.

345
00:14:07,020 --> 00:14:09,480
I just, I can't help myself.

346
00:14:10,140 --> 00:14:12,640
So were we going to like license that or something?

347
00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:13,120
Yes.

348
00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:13,560
Yeah.

349
00:14:13,560 --> 00:14:17,340
So that will be, you'll be able to download that off our website any day.

350
00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:17,720
Yeah.

351
00:14:17,820 --> 00:14:20,220
We'll have to put a link to it in the show notes.

352
00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:20,920
That's right.

353
00:14:21,020 --> 00:14:21,400
Oh, perfect.

354
00:14:21,660 --> 00:14:21,900
Yeah.

355
00:14:22,180 --> 00:14:22,420
Yeah.

356
00:14:22,420 --> 00:14:23,860
But it is a good report.

357
00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:28,680
I mean, it's a, it's a nice overview and it, and it, it does like talk about pivotal in

358
00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:30,020
it, but it's not like highly recommendation.

359
00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,360
It's not comparative and it's not a comparative report.

360
00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:33,700
It's more about practices.

361
00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:34,020
Yeah.

362
00:14:34,020 --> 00:14:37,220
It's like, here's the market, here are the changes, the trends in the market, and here

363
00:14:37,220 --> 00:14:38,400
are some sample vendors.

364
00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:39,000
Right.

365
00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:39,280
Right.

366
00:14:39,620 --> 00:14:40,520
So it's a nice.

367
00:14:41,220 --> 00:14:43,860
Well, so, so on that topic, welcome back to the podcast.

368
00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:45,040
Thank you for having me.

369
00:14:45,100 --> 00:14:47,560
It's been great to hang out with you guys in Las Vegas.

370
00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:48,060
Yeah.

371
00:14:48,300 --> 00:14:50,940
I think it was probably almost a year ago that you were on last time.

372
00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,340
And, and last, so, so last time.

373
00:14:53,620 --> 00:14:54,160
It was a year ago.

374
00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:54,780
Wasn't it?

375
00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:55,420
It was like June.

376
00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:56,040
June.

377
00:14:56,500 --> 00:14:57,640
Time warp over there.

378
00:14:57,700 --> 00:14:58,240
Only June.

379
00:14:58,340 --> 00:14:58,560
Wow.

380
00:14:58,740 --> 00:14:59,320
That's great.

381
00:14:59,700 --> 00:15:01,920
Time's moving a lot slower than I actually think it is.

382
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:02,980
It was before SpringOne.

383
00:15:03,300 --> 00:15:09,500
I've still got more time to enjoy coffee, but anyways, so last time you gave us an overview

384
00:15:09,500 --> 00:15:14,020
of like what analyst relations or AR does, but like for people who, you know, the one

385
00:15:14,020 --> 00:15:18,480
listener out of our many who hasn't listened to the entire Canon and like, as, as I know

386
00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:22,600
they all do, like, why don't you give us like a, a, a little summary of what AR does?

387
00:15:22,700 --> 00:15:24,420
Like what's, what's your role around here?

388
00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:25,740
And, and, you know, in general.

389
00:15:25,740 --> 00:15:32,560
So I mean, ultimately, and I said this last time I enable, um, I raise our visibility among

390
00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:39,320
a specific constituency in this industry, technology, um, technology industry analyst firms,

391
00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:44,540
like Forrester and Gartner and 451, Redmonk, Ovum.

392
00:15:44,860 --> 00:15:46,060
So those are the folks we work with.

393
00:15:46,340 --> 00:15:49,240
And, and, I mean, it's, it's, it's, that's, it's pretty straightforward.

394
00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:49,560
Yeah.

395
00:15:49,700 --> 00:15:55,160
So that, I basically make sure that those folks know what we're doing, know, are up to speed

396
00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:58,300
on, uh, product versions, like, you know, features.

397
00:15:58,520 --> 00:15:59,060
That's great.

398
00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,720
And we'll talk later in the show, I think about what are they being asked about these

399
00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:03,040
days?

400
00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:03,240
Yeah.

401
00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:06,500
When, you know, 10, 15 years ago, they were like, show me a feature, feature comparison

402
00:16:06,500 --> 00:16:09,840
between these two, uh, app platforms and which one should I pick?

403
00:16:10,220 --> 00:16:13,100
They're getting different kinds of questions, but that's, I'm digressing.

404
00:16:13,620 --> 00:16:14,740
Um, so.

405
00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:16,740
But it's not like one analyst.

406
00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,400
I mean, it's, it's, it's bizarre walking with you here cause you're like some mini celebrity

407
00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:23,420
that everyone tells you and it's, it's freaking me out.

408
00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:27,300
But you know, what's interesting though, and you've, I think you've spent so much time

409
00:16:27,300 --> 00:16:31,120
this year doing it is it's not like there's a Rolodex of four people that you talk to.

410
00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:33,620
It's like one person at each firm and I just keep them up to date.

411
00:16:34,060 --> 00:16:38,680
Is it, in fact, as you're Gartner and you're growing like crazy year over year and analysts

412
00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:42,660
and stuff, I think a lot of your job is just keeping a pulse on who's, who covers what

413
00:16:42,660 --> 00:16:45,260
and how do I keep expanding who knows about us, right?

414
00:16:45,260 --> 00:16:45,660
Exactly.

415
00:16:45,780 --> 00:16:47,140
I mean, for example, DevOps, right?

416
00:16:47,180 --> 00:16:52,080
They have a bunch of folks who cover DevOps and we need to be talking to those folks.

417
00:16:52,340 --> 00:16:57,580
So in addition to the pure tech, the guys who cover Pivotal from a pure technology perspective,

418
00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,340
we need to be talking to the folks who are covering things like DevOps.

419
00:17:01,340 --> 00:17:05,700
And there's also the whole CIO practice, the analysts who talk to the CIO audience and

420
00:17:05,700 --> 00:17:10,220
both Forrester and Gartner have these analysts and we're talking to them because we're pretty

421
00:17:10,220 --> 00:17:11,400
close with our CIOs.

422
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:12,980
We listen to them and they listen to us.

423
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:17,900
And as we talked to an analyst earlier today, they're asking a lot of questions that are actually

424
00:17:17,900 --> 00:17:19,680
not so much about technology.

425
00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:21,060
They're about skills and culture.

426
00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:26,040
And that's also a trend I'm seeing with analysts in general is that, again, back in the day

427
00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:30,020
when they would just get asked these straightforward technology questions, vendor for vendor, now

428
00:17:30,020 --> 00:17:36,560
they're having to talk about the cultural implications of how these app dev paradigms are changing or

429
00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:40,660
having to go to cloud and what's this agile stuff and stuff like that.

430
00:17:40,740 --> 00:17:41,320
So I'm sure it's interesting.

431
00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:47,380
I always have analysts dealing with most of the infrastructure teams and things like that.

432
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:51,000
And so now it just seems like there's so much more about app dev and lifecycle and leadership

433
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:52,120
and DevOps and management.

434
00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:53,860
And I think that's exciting.

435
00:17:53,980 --> 00:17:57,000
But I'm sure as an analyst, it's like, gosh, it was a lot easier when I just talked about

436
00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:58,420
upgrades to JBoss.

437
00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:04,440
Yeah, I mean, there's a role of AR that I think at this conference, I've noticed I've been seeing more,

438
00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:09,780
which is that you're kind of talking about, which is the you should be talking to these people, right?

439
00:18:10,020 --> 00:18:13,900
Like there's almost the I mean, there's many parts of AR as far as I understand it.

440
00:18:13,900 --> 00:18:21,100
But there's a fair amount of the transactional part of like if you've got like a person talking to the analyst

441
00:18:21,100 --> 00:18:24,340
and the analyst, I'm wildly moving my hands around for the people who can't see it.

442
00:18:24,360 --> 00:18:27,780
But it's sort of like this person has a question for that person and you can kind of facilitate

443
00:18:27,780 --> 00:18:28,800
and hook that up or whatever.

444
00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:30,600
So it's like very pat and dry.

445
00:18:30,700 --> 00:18:34,960
But then there's another thing that I think as a new field comes about and people are interested in it,

446
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:39,120
like you kind of just like move around like, oh, these two people should be talking

447
00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:40,280
and we should talk to those people.

448
00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:42,620
Like we just had a meeting with someone that was basically that.

449
00:18:42,620 --> 00:18:47,460
It was like this person covers something you guys seem to be big into and you haven't really

450
00:18:47,460 --> 00:18:49,980
talked with them before, so you should go talk to them.

451
00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:50,720
Exactly.

452
00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:56,100
Yeah, I could know seriously, I could sit and just mind the firm's coverage and be like,

453
00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:57,780
we could talk to them about this, this or this.

454
00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,040
I mean, really, I mean, right down to, you mentioned RabbitMQ.

455
00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:08,580
There's an analyst who doesn't cover PaaS or app frameworks, but he's the main guy who

456
00:19:08,580 --> 00:19:10,380
covers messaging for middleware.

457
00:19:10,740 --> 00:19:13,140
And so I'm like, oh, does RabbitMQ come up in your conversations?

458
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:13,840
Yes, it does.

459
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,060
Well, we should probably be telling you what we're doing with that.

460
00:19:16,420 --> 00:19:20,780
But I mean, really, I could spend all my time just figuring out who else to be talking to

461
00:19:20,780 --> 00:19:21,220
at these firms.

462
00:19:21,580 --> 00:19:25,580
And to a customer, I mean, to a company who listens to this, why does that matter that

463
00:19:25,580 --> 00:19:26,440
they know about us?

464
00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:27,500
Like, I mean, what are we trying to do?

465
00:19:27,580 --> 00:19:30,840
Are they, I mean, an analyst probably looks at the landscape and there's a lot of providers

466
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:34,400
and is our job making sure that we're top of mind?

467
00:19:34,500 --> 00:19:38,660
Clearly, our job is not to make them say something because these are very independent people who

468
00:19:38,660 --> 00:19:40,380
don't care if we want them to say something.

469
00:19:40,820 --> 00:19:42,020
But is it just, is it awareness?

470
00:19:42,180 --> 00:19:47,540
Because when then they write or when a company reads something, they can see, they feel like

471
00:19:47,540 --> 00:19:49,180
they're getting a good look at the landscape.

472
00:19:49,180 --> 00:19:52,940
Like, why does our customer care that we've talked to now 50 Gartner analysts in the last

473
00:19:52,940 --> 00:19:53,340
two days?

474
00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:58,860
So what I think would hurt, what hurts me to hear, ever hear, and hearing it less and less

475
00:19:58,860 --> 00:20:04,000
is an analyst not, is an analyst getting a question from a customer that they can't answer

476
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,780
because we didn't keep them informed of what we were doing, whether it's about our strategy

477
00:20:07,780 --> 00:20:10,560
or new features of our product.

478
00:20:10,820 --> 00:20:11,220
Right.

479
00:20:11,220 --> 00:20:17,780
So that's, that's why, you know, customers who need to, may not have time or for some reason

480
00:20:17,780 --> 00:20:20,800
or just not up to speed and need to get the quick thing, they should be, the Cliff Notes

481
00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:25,460
version, they can go to the analysts and if we've done our job, the analysts know what

482
00:20:25,460 --> 00:20:26,720
we're doing and where we're taking it.

483
00:20:26,820 --> 00:20:30,840
You know, there's a lot of, you know, some, some analysts and some customers want to know

484
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:35,780
what's the prospect for this company in the long term and, or where are they taking this

485
00:20:35,780 --> 00:20:36,300
platform?

486
00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,020
Is it going to be in line with, with where I want to go in the future?

487
00:20:40,020 --> 00:20:43,840
I think one of the guys we were talking with today was talking, was, was saying about

488
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:47,100
that, we're like, what about, is it actually was the guy, the CIO guy, right?

489
00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,580
About, is it, are they helping you move forward?

490
00:20:49,940 --> 00:20:50,280
Oh yeah.

491
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:52,520
Are they keeping you from moving forward?

492
00:20:52,660 --> 00:20:56,700
That's got to be a lot trickier to be like health of company versus like who does cool

493
00:20:56,700 --> 00:20:58,560
stuff in continuous integration delivery?

494
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:00,520
Like, all right, I know about Pivotal, they do that.

495
00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:01,880
How many employees do they have?

496
00:21:02,060 --> 00:21:03,220
Uh, I don't know.

497
00:21:03,340 --> 00:21:07,840
I mean, it's got to be trickier when it's like business level info versus who does interesting

498
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,220
things in app frameworks or platforms or cloud or what have you.

499
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:16,080
So, so then, so then since last time we talked, what do you, how do you, how do you think the,

500
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,860
uh, the analyst people, what's going on with them in Pivotal?

501
00:21:19,020 --> 00:21:24,280
Like how, how's, how's, uh, how do you think let's, let's say there's at least two categories.

502
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,720
Like one of them, maybe we don't know, but like what do the analysts think of us Pivotal?

503
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:32,260
And the other one is kind of like, have, do you think that there's more conversation between

504
00:21:32,260 --> 00:21:34,760
Pivotal users and customers and analysts?

505
00:21:34,900 --> 00:21:36,220
Like how's that relationship going?

506
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:41,720
I think there has to be, yeah, no, the analysts have told me they've seen an uptick in questions

507
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,260
and inquiries and about Pivotal.

508
00:21:44,660 --> 00:21:46,320
So that makes me very happy.

509
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:48,420
You know, I think they all knew about us a year ago.

510
00:21:48,500 --> 00:21:49,600
Now they know more about us.

511
00:21:49,620 --> 00:21:51,100
So they feel more comfortable talking about us.

512
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:55,340
And, you know, and I think it's not just a, this isn't just because of analyst relations.

513
00:21:55,340 --> 00:21:59,900
I think in general, you know, marketing and yeah, awareness about Pivotal is increasing

514
00:21:59,900 --> 00:22:05,380
and, and, and as a result, that's kind of, it's this kind of feedback, you know, like

515
00:22:05,380 --> 00:22:06,320
conversation loop.

516
00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:10,540
And I was talking to, I think last time about this, uh, continuous conversation.

517
00:22:10,780 --> 00:22:11,100
Yeah.

518
00:22:11,180 --> 00:22:14,060
Um, and that's what it is, you know, AR is part of that conversation.

519
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,760
Um, so yeah, I think it's great to hear that.

520
00:22:17,820 --> 00:22:20,700
It's great to hear when I get out of, when I do an inquiry with an analyst, they're like,

521
00:22:20,700 --> 00:22:24,660
Hey, I've gotten a really tremendous uptick in inquiries about you guys this quarter.

522
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:25,200
Why?

523
00:22:25,660 --> 00:22:25,980
Yeah.

524
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:26,360
Yeah.

525
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:30,660
Like I was sitting next to someone last night at a dinner and I was asking him the analyst

526
00:22:30,660 --> 00:22:31,580
version of this question.

527
00:22:31,580 --> 00:22:33,100
So like, what do you hear about us nowadays?

528
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,880
And he was, he, he, I don't think he was even half joking.

529
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,880
Cause I thought he was, but then I asked him and he's like, he said, uh, yeah, I've, I've

530
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,020
been reviewing a lot of PCF contracts.

531
00:22:43,460 --> 00:22:45,700
And, and so that's like, that's pretty crazy.

532
00:22:45,700 --> 00:22:49,400
I mean, in, in a good way that like, he's, uh, he's being pulled into like compare and

533
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,560
contrast, you know, pricing and contracts and stuff.

534
00:22:51,900 --> 00:22:54,340
And those are straightforward questions from my understanding for the analyst.

535
00:22:54,340 --> 00:22:54,700
Yeah.

536
00:22:54,700 --> 00:22:54,880
Yeah.

537
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:59,080
And, but you know, it's, it's a good, it's a good metric of like, if he uses the phrase

538
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,540
a lot, then like there's, there's, there's a lot of contract too.

539
00:23:02,540 --> 00:23:04,480
So we're selling these things.

540
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:05,480
Yeah.

541
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:05,800
Yeah.

542
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:06,100
Yeah.

543
00:23:06,100 --> 00:23:11,060
And I mean, just anecdotally myself, like I, I mean, as, as people can imagine, I pay very

544
00:23:11,060 --> 00:23:12,060
close attention to this stuff.

545
00:23:12,060 --> 00:23:16,900
Like there is, even if it's in, there's always a certain part of lots of analyst things.

546
00:23:16,900 --> 00:23:19,680
That's kind of the, um, what would you call it?

547
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,140
Like, not the penalty box, but the didn't qualify footnote.

548
00:23:23,140 --> 00:23:27,880
And if, if we only show up in there for some reason, like we're pretty much in all our,

549
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:32,200
we're mentioned in all the reports that we should be, which, which is gratifying to see.

550
00:23:32,420 --> 00:23:32,740
Absolutely.

551
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:33,500
It is nice.

552
00:23:33,660 --> 00:23:34,180
That's increased.

553
00:23:34,300 --> 00:23:38,060
I actually would like to do a little study to see how much, how much like actual print,

554
00:23:38,180 --> 00:23:39,380
print, how much we've come up.

555
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:39,720
Yeah.

556
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:40,560
And we can do inquiry analytics.

557
00:23:40,740 --> 00:23:42,480
I mean, we can find out like inquiries too.

558
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,060
Or I can just ask them, are we getting, are we getting?

559
00:23:45,060 --> 00:23:45,300
Yeah.

560
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:50,380
You know, it's making me think like, like I, I haven't like in the meetings we've had,

561
00:23:50,420 --> 00:23:53,480
I hadn't used the opportunity for, to get like free consulting out of the analyst.

562
00:23:53,780 --> 00:23:55,220
Like I, I, I, I keep trying to.

563
00:23:55,420 --> 00:23:55,660
Yeah.

564
00:23:55,900 --> 00:23:59,560
But, but like, you know, one of the things it's, it'd be interesting that I would ask the analysts

565
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,600
is, cause I get asked this a lot, is it seems like we're at the height

566
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:08,040
of like, for lack of a better phrase, platform fragmentation madness, right?

567
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,340
There's all these different like container driven things.

568
00:24:10,340 --> 00:24:14,260
And like, we talk about this a lot of my other podcasts, software defined talk.

569
00:24:14,260 --> 00:24:17,760
I mean, almost every episode, but it's just like, I wonder how analysts deal with that.

570
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:23,620
Cause it is like, cause their, their job, I mean, you know, their job is to give, I would

571
00:24:23,620 --> 00:24:27,660
say a helpful, expansive answer with lots of opinion.

572
00:24:27,860 --> 00:24:28,260
Right.

573
00:24:28,300 --> 00:24:31,300
Whereas like the answer that I can give just has to be like entertaining.

574
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:37,980
But, but like, you know, I, man, sorting out all that stuff seems really like difficult

575
00:24:37,980 --> 00:24:42,960
and which, which is all to say, I think we show up in that whole mess of stuff a lot more

576
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,520
than, than we did even like a year or so ago.

577
00:24:46,900 --> 00:24:48,400
We forget the stakes are high too.

578
00:24:48,500 --> 00:24:52,000
Sometimes it's easy for you and I to give a blustery opinions on podcasts.

579
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,460
Like Gardner Magic Quadrants, people lose their minds when they're not positioned in the right

580
00:24:56,460 --> 00:24:56,800
place.

581
00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:02,140
Or if you get left off a Forrester wave or like there's financial implications if you're not

582
00:25:02,140 --> 00:25:05,200
mentioned in these things for the companies that actually manage by these things.

583
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:05,340
Yeah.

584
00:25:05,340 --> 00:25:07,040
You worked on that at like CenturyLink, right?

585
00:25:07,100 --> 00:25:07,560
If I remember you.

586
00:25:07,620 --> 00:25:07,760
Sure.

587
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:08,100
Yeah.

588
00:25:08,100 --> 00:25:12,900
I filled out a lot of quadrants and it was fine because again, for enough customers, it's

589
00:25:12,900 --> 00:25:15,900
not their criteria, but it is something that helps them down select.

590
00:25:16,120 --> 00:25:20,540
So very few companies I think would tell you like they manage by quadrant, but at the same

591
00:25:20,540 --> 00:25:23,480
time, if they're looking at like who are the five I should invite in for the first call,

592
00:25:23,620 --> 00:25:24,600
like that's a real thing.

593
00:25:24,740 --> 00:25:26,500
And so when you get left off, there's real implications.

594
00:25:26,740 --> 00:25:28,100
So that's tough for an analyst.

595
00:25:28,220 --> 00:25:33,160
I'm sure they filled a lot of calls as they ship things and have to deal with angry, angry

596
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:34,020
paying customers.

597
00:25:34,980 --> 00:25:36,180
Yeah, it's true.

598
00:25:36,180 --> 00:25:38,220
I've, I've, I've experienced that.

599
00:25:38,980 --> 00:25:40,280
It's a weird fact of life.

600
00:25:41,180 --> 00:25:45,840
So, so are there any other like, like interesting changes in our, what our relations with the

601
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:47,280
analysts and what we've been doing with them?

602
00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:51,800
Like, like if, if you look at like the, the smaller firms, like what, uh, what do we do

603
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:53,440
with those people nowadays and vice versa?

604
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,120
So it's the same thing, keeping them informed, I think.

605
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:02,300
Um, and they talk to different audiences, for example, I mean, Red Monk talks to more developer

606
00:26:02,300 --> 00:26:03,560
audience.

607
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,840
So we definitely make sure that they're informed and know what we're doing, like, especially

608
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,240
with things like Spring and some of our open source things.

609
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:15,000
And, um, and they, they sometimes surface, but like, again, I'm going to use Red Monk as

610
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:19,920
an example, uh, like Steven O'Grady wrote a piece about data and DevOps, right?

611
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,560
That's a pretty forward thinking topic, right?

612
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,700
And so, and a topic that Pivotal can talk to or is at least exploring and thinking about

613
00:26:26,700 --> 00:26:26,800
it.

614
00:26:26,860 --> 00:26:30,140
We're asking questions similar to, to those guys.

615
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,120
So we'll do some work with them on that.

616
00:26:32,220 --> 00:26:36,220
You know, we'll, we'll kind of riff, riff off the topic on a phone call.

617
00:26:36,300 --> 00:26:41,440
We might, you know, do a podcast or a webcast where we have them and some of our smart folks

618
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,040
just, we do those things here too, which is nice.

619
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:48,620
I mean, it's not like our analyst relations are, we get on the phone and we read through

620
00:26:48,620 --> 00:26:51,440
our latest product sheet and then we ask some questions and hang up.

621
00:26:51,860 --> 00:26:52,080
I don't know.

622
00:26:52,140 --> 00:26:56,780
A lot of the ones that Rita has set up this year were a lot around, like, let's just talk

623
00:26:56,780 --> 00:26:59,380
about an idea that maybe we're going to be baking into the product.

624
00:26:59,420 --> 00:27:01,980
Or here's like a fundamental concept, like data and DevOps.

625
00:27:02,420 --> 00:27:05,800
If there's no product around the corner, you're pivotal for that because no one's really even

626
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:06,860
solving that problem well.

627
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,700
So to just riff for an hour on something that's tricky and how are we going to help customers

628
00:27:10,700 --> 00:27:11,260
solve that?

629
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:12,640
Who's innovative in the field?

630
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:18,260
And we do this with Gartner as well, all of them, which is really fun to be able to help

631
00:27:18,260 --> 00:27:18,420
that.

632
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:23,940
I think that's maybe an incentive as well for regular enterprises who call up and talk to

633
00:27:23,940 --> 00:27:28,580
analysts or even sometimes act as references as you get that chance to riff on tricky concepts.

634
00:27:28,580 --> 00:27:30,560
But, you know, do you see that?

635
00:27:30,620 --> 00:27:36,240
So when we ask a company to talk to an analyst on our behalf or just to talk to them because

636
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,140
analysts love case studies, why do that?

637
00:27:39,260 --> 00:27:44,440
Like, why would a company choose to call up a Gartner or a Forrester or a 451 and give

638
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:45,480
them an hour of their time?

639
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:46,940
You mean to just talk about pivotal?

640
00:27:47,540 --> 00:27:47,780
Yeah.

641
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,080
If we're saying, like, hey, talk about your transformation, why would you do that?

642
00:27:51,120 --> 00:27:56,760
You know, I think, and this may seem hokey, but I do think people like to influence a

643
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:57,640
conversation, right?

644
00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:58,460
I think that's part of it.

645
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,600
I think it helps position them.

646
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:06,540
Actually, the more kind of, you know, self-serving thing is if you are an enterprise who wants

647
00:28:06,540 --> 00:28:14,620
to be seen as, not only are you going to be able to survive some disruption from some more

648
00:28:14,620 --> 00:28:19,200
agile competitors, but you're ahead of the game, you know, you're forward thinking, this

649
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:20,360
is a great way to do it, right?

650
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,360
Like, this is kind of the first, this is like the first line, right?

651
00:28:23,420 --> 00:28:25,120
And then, of course, press and all that stuff.

652
00:28:25,140 --> 00:28:26,360
It's just hard to argue with that.

653
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,320
I mean, when, you know, Doug is on the, in New York Times, talking about the Allstate

654
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,100
transformation, like, that's a real thing.

655
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:32,400
Yeah.

656
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:33,040
And when you're in a Forrester report.

657
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:34,460
And that's because material is your business.

658
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:34,800
Right.

659
00:28:34,900 --> 00:28:37,840
Like, those are real things when you're listed in analyst reports or press.

660
00:28:37,980 --> 00:28:38,100
Yes.

661
00:28:38,140 --> 00:28:38,720
Because, you know what?

662
00:28:38,820 --> 00:28:40,560
That's an interesting place I might want to work.

663
00:28:40,900 --> 00:28:41,000
Yeah.

664
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:47,560
I mean, among many reasons, among many reasons, I've always weirded out why people, why, to

665
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,780
use the phrase again, enterprises don't talk more publicly.

666
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:54,280
I mean, I know there's always, like, procurement reasons and stuff like that, but then it's

667
00:28:54,280 --> 00:29:00,560
also, like, it's my observation is that, like, those IT people, whether they're leaders

668
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:06,060
or not, who, like, talk more publicly end up getting better jobs or promotions or career

669
00:29:06,060 --> 00:29:06,400
or whatever.

670
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:11,460
And so, it seems like, and I mean, I have to imagine, like, if you're not someone who,

671
00:29:11,460 --> 00:29:17,020
like, has, you know, chronic has to publish all the time, scoliosis or whatever, that, like,

672
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:21,480
like, how do you build up any sort of, like, fame other than code, right?

673
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,860
Like, you could do some, but, like, you need some hook of, like, why you're valuable and

674
00:29:25,860 --> 00:29:26,180
interesting.

675
00:29:26,300 --> 00:29:29,760
So, it seems like, of course, you don't want to, like, be excessive about it, but, like,

676
00:29:29,780 --> 00:29:33,400
any opportunity you get to talk about, at the very least, how you succeeded or even

677
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,380
better, how you failed and then succeeded, like, would be great.

678
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:37,040
Yeah, yeah.

679
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,240
A lot of transformation, for example, since that's the buzz phrase du jour right now,

680
00:29:40,300 --> 00:29:41,060
digital transformation.

681
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:41,680
Yeah.

682
00:29:42,500 --> 00:29:43,240
That's what it is.

683
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:47,800
And, yeah, so, I mean, I think, number one, I think I answered that backwards, right?

684
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:53,920
My first answer would be is this is a great way for our customers to be showcased as vanguards

685
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:54,460
of their industry.

686
00:29:54,500 --> 00:29:58,280
And I use that word a lot because I do, and I think our analysts, I've had analysts say

687
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,440
that to me about our customers.

688
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:06,680
You know, they're ahead of the type A organizations that the firms talk with.

689
00:30:06,900 --> 00:30:07,100
Yeah.

690
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,500
So, it's, why wouldn't you want to be positioned as that?

691
00:30:09,580 --> 00:30:16,300
You know, it makes you look like, you know, I mean, whether it's for just profile, but also

692
00:30:16,300 --> 00:30:17,020
for business.

693
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,980
You want the people who are interested in your business to know that this company is

694
00:30:19,980 --> 00:30:24,680
not going to lose revenue or lose market share or they're not in trouble.

695
00:30:24,820 --> 00:30:25,400
They know what's up.

696
00:30:25,660 --> 00:30:26,220
They're going to survive.

697
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:27,320
And they're not just going to survive.

698
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:28,240
They're going to thrive.

699
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,160
And, you know, that's another thing that we talk a lot about in digital transformation.

700
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,000
It's not just about surviving anymore.

701
00:30:34,660 --> 00:30:35,620
It's about thriving.

702
00:30:35,940 --> 00:30:36,140
Yeah.

703
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:40,780
It's fun to trace to those two areas, like the technology and the culture stuff.

704
00:30:41,260 --> 00:30:42,980
So, I have two more, like, technical.

705
00:30:43,140 --> 00:30:46,020
I'm sure we'll, I shouldn't reuse my metaphors.

706
00:30:46,380 --> 00:30:47,840
I'm sure we'll stumble onto other topics.

707
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,360
But, like, so there's two more little technical things that I want to talk about.

708
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:56,300
One of them, so, we have Tony from Home Depot here.

709
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:57,620
He's giving a talk here.

710
00:30:57,720 --> 00:30:59,500
And he's been hanging out with us very nicely.

711
00:30:59,780 --> 00:31:04,440
And we were talking about how, what you do in one-on-one meetings, just comparing notes.

712
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,900
And so, I was curious to hear your answer.

713
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:12,360
So, like, at an event like this, there's often, like, a giant room with a bunch of tiny, painfully small round tables.

714
00:31:12,780 --> 00:31:14,100
And they've got numbers on them.

715
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:17,020
And you're waiting for someone to bring you delicious food, but it never comes.

716
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:19,360
And so, because of numbers.

717
00:31:19,420 --> 00:31:20,060
It's like speed dating.

718
00:31:20,380 --> 00:31:20,960
Yeah, exactly.

719
00:31:21,140 --> 00:31:23,560
And so, that's the one-on-one meeting.

720
00:31:23,820 --> 00:31:27,900
So, like, I'm curious to hear from you, like, what, there's two, well, at least one thing.

721
00:31:27,980 --> 00:31:30,320
So, like, what do you do in that meeting?

722
00:31:30,500 --> 00:31:32,900
Like, what is, what's supposed to happen?

723
00:31:32,900 --> 00:31:33,340
Okay.

724
00:31:33,500 --> 00:31:35,800
Well, I think of them as a start of a conversation.

725
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:36,560
Often.

726
00:31:36,860 --> 00:31:41,700
Like, oftentimes, it's like, let's, you're not going to have a deep conversation in 30 minutes.

727
00:31:41,860 --> 00:31:46,680
It's just a way of figuring out what, where the coming ground is between us.

728
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:48,240
And then you leave here.

729
00:31:48,340 --> 00:31:50,260
And then you continue the conversation.

730
00:31:50,500 --> 00:31:51,340
It's like forced small talk.

731
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:52,480
Yeah.

732
00:31:52,980 --> 00:31:54,340
Yeah, it's like being a little party, forced small talk.

733
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,780
And then after you leave here, and then you continue it in other formats.

734
00:31:57,780 --> 00:32:06,280
But do you find that you, or, if you're, I guess, either part of the one-on-one, the one-or-the-one, are you going in there with something you want to get that one answer to?

735
00:32:06,380 --> 00:32:08,860
Like, I know I've had a, you've set up a few of them for me this week.

736
00:32:08,900 --> 00:32:11,980
And I know out of each one, I've gotten at least some thought that I want to do something with.

737
00:32:12,060 --> 00:32:15,620
Because we had, we said something, or the analyst said something interesting I wanted to investigate.

738
00:32:16,060 --> 00:32:19,660
Are you better off, if you're going into those, going, I'd really like their take on X.

739
00:32:19,700 --> 00:32:20,940
Let's see what else they come up with.

740
00:32:21,020 --> 00:32:21,680
That's a good question.

741
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:26,240
Well, yeah, so that's how you spark, I mean, because otherwise, well, it also helps with that kind of first awkward silence.

742
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,400
Like, oh, hey, how's the show going?

743
00:32:28,420 --> 00:32:29,320
You have a beard, too.

744
00:32:30,500 --> 00:32:31,240
Yeah, that's funny.

745
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:33,680
I love the how is the show going question.

746
00:32:33,980 --> 00:32:35,280
It's such an easy fallback.

747
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:36,600
Because you're not ready for the negative.

748
00:32:36,820 --> 00:32:39,380
If they go, this has been terrible, like, everything has gone wrong.

749
00:32:39,380 --> 00:32:40,840
I've been locked out of my room three times.

750
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,940
But, yeah, I lost all my money last minute.

751
00:32:45,260 --> 00:32:46,320
I'm not ready for the negative.

752
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:52,880
Yeah, so, but it's definitely the, when you have a specific question, that definitely is a great way to break the ice and get it started.

753
00:32:53,140 --> 00:32:54,560
And then from there, you just flow.

754
00:32:54,760 --> 00:33:03,400
So maybe that's a good Salem thing is, like, you should probably have at least one thing that, if not that you want to accomplish, that you want to talk about.

755
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:03,660
Right.

756
00:33:03,660 --> 00:33:06,720
Like, oh, I said, in your report, I really liked what you said in this.

757
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:08,000
Or I was at your talk yesterday.

758
00:33:08,260 --> 00:33:10,580
Like, I kind of try and go to the talks before I have it.

759
00:33:10,580 --> 00:33:12,220
And how long are these meetings usually?

760
00:33:12,340 --> 00:33:12,820
30 minutes.

761
00:33:12,900 --> 00:33:13,520
30 minutes, okay.

762
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:19,680
Now, end users, I would probably have, I would imagine, end users go with more specific questions than the vendors, right?

763
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:19,920
Yeah.

764
00:33:20,060 --> 00:33:23,640
Either because they are here trying to make a decision.

765
00:33:23,860 --> 00:33:24,040
Right.

766
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:24,800
They're buying something.

767
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:25,240
Yeah.

768
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:25,920
You know?

769
00:33:26,340 --> 00:33:29,720
Or they went to a session and want to dig deeper into something they said.

770
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,660
So I think it's a little different whether you're here as an end user or as a vendor.

771
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:39,500
And for an end user, do they, I don't know, I was going to say advertise, but is a feature of one-on-ones that it can be a quick consultation?

772
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,380
Or do they steer the analysts away from actually doing consultative stuff?

773
00:33:45,500 --> 00:33:47,660
They're more like inquiry, so it is more consultative.

774
00:33:47,780 --> 00:33:47,960
Okay.

775
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,120
It should be more consultative than briefing.

776
00:33:50,380 --> 00:33:57,660
And for the listeners, inquiry is basically like a 30-minute phone call that you have where you can ask a couple questions.

777
00:33:57,940 --> 00:33:58,160
Okay.

778
00:33:58,660 --> 00:33:59,700
Yeah, that makes sense.

779
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:01,800
And then, so, okay.

780
00:34:01,940 --> 00:34:04,180
So we got that down, what you do with the one-on-ones.

781
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,480
And how many do you typically have at a conference like this?

782
00:34:08,220 --> 00:34:14,720
You have two per pass for every ticket, but they also put a limit on how many, for vendors, they put a limit on how many you can do total.

783
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:15,400
Right.

784
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:17,880
So at least two, but no more than eight.

785
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,500
Unless you're like the triple platinum sponsor or something.

786
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:21,040
That's right.

787
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:27,120
Yeah, I didn't realize this about Gartner until, you know, we started working here on this stuff.

788
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:33,820
But there's like not only, I mean, yet another weird separate, not weird, but what was the word I liked better than weird?

789
00:34:34,020 --> 00:34:38,700
Novel separation of things is the event people and the research people.

790
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:44,580
And they're like separate concerns of business, which totally makes sense, but I would never realize that.

791
00:34:44,580 --> 00:34:50,280
And so it's interesting to see how when you're in an event like this, how that intermixes with the research side.

792
00:34:51,020 --> 00:34:55,620
So then the other thing as far as technicalities that I had is, I had forgotten about this, but Richard remembered,

793
00:34:55,720 --> 00:35:01,480
is you actually, you ran, I don't know, I think it was Pivotal's first, like our first AR day at SpringOne Platform.

794
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:03,560
And so that's, what's up with that?

795
00:35:03,820 --> 00:35:04,440
I loved it.

796
00:35:04,540 --> 00:35:07,920
I love those things, you know, being how I, I love bringing people together.

797
00:35:08,060 --> 00:35:08,280
Yeah.

798
00:35:08,380 --> 00:35:12,680
So, so first of all, explain what, what an analyst say is, like, what, what would that be?

799
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:18,560
It's usually you take the analysts and you lock them in a room with no windows and you just fire hose them with information about why your company is working.

800
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,760
And if you wanted to hear James Governor Nightmares, there would be no Wi-Fi or PowerStream.

801
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:24,340
That is a nightmare.

802
00:35:24,500 --> 00:35:25,220
Cell blockers.

803
00:35:25,720 --> 00:35:33,420
No, that's, that's, there, there are people who might run their analyst days that way, but we do not.

804
00:35:33,780 --> 00:35:33,900
Yeah.

805
00:35:34,340 --> 00:35:43,420
So you bring them in, you give them a sense of, I mean, if you're having, if you have big announcements at the show, the fact is, the analyst shouldn't be surprised about anything you're going to announce at a conference.

806
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:44,160
They're just not.

807
00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:47,620
But again, I think some of them are run as, oh, here are the announcements we're going to make at the show.

808
00:35:47,700 --> 00:35:48,520
They might be reminders.

809
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:53,300
Hey, we already briefed you on this, but just FYI, this, we're going to talk about this at the conference if you're asked.

810
00:35:54,620 --> 00:35:57,560
We talked to them about roadmap.

811
00:35:57,880 --> 00:35:58,000
Right.

812
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:03,540
We had some customers talk about their journey with us, which was one, which is their favorite.

813
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:04,760
I mean, their favorite thing is customers.

814
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:05,760
Always, always, always.

815
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:06,440
They loved it.

816
00:36:06,500 --> 00:36:08,760
They were over the moon about the panel we had.

817
00:36:09,460 --> 00:36:11,900
And then access to executives.

818
00:36:12,140 --> 00:36:14,120
Like executives, they don't get to talk to very often.

819
00:36:14,540 --> 00:36:18,740
And of course, then they get to ask them the really hard questions like, who are your competitors?

820
00:36:19,020 --> 00:36:21,380
Like, who do you consider your biggest competitor, which was asked?

821
00:36:21,540 --> 00:36:24,420
Or, you know, questions about revenue or go-to-market and things like that.

822
00:36:24,420 --> 00:36:25,180
General strategy.

823
00:36:25,500 --> 00:36:25,680
Yeah.

824
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:26,160
So.

825
00:36:26,820 --> 00:36:29,460
Yeah, I mean, I was fortunate enough to attend.

826
00:36:29,660 --> 00:36:31,140
That's for you to let me sit in on it.

827
00:36:31,300 --> 00:36:38,080
And I think, again, why an end user cares that we have an analyst day is the point is for people to be pretty up to date.

828
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:43,040
So if you do call a Gartner, a Forrester, any of these and say, so what's going on over there?

829
00:36:43,140 --> 00:36:44,780
You know, who's doing interesting stuff in containers?

830
00:36:45,620 --> 00:36:48,900
You know, they're not just saying, well, I read the blog, the same blog you did.

831
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:50,120
I just read the same stuff.

832
00:36:50,240 --> 00:36:50,540
Yeah, exactly.

833
00:36:50,540 --> 00:36:52,940
But, like, they're the ones that should be a little bit ahead.

834
00:36:53,100 --> 00:36:54,580
And this is one fire hose day.

835
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:55,420
Because I can't imagine.

836
00:36:55,520 --> 00:37:01,200
I mean, you set up a lot of briefings to make sure that it's not, like, once a year we go talk to each one of these and just fire hose them.

837
00:37:01,220 --> 00:37:06,860
But this is a great, like, let's all sit for six, seven hours, talk about this stuff, ask tough questions.

838
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:08,140
I don't know.

839
00:37:08,180 --> 00:37:08,820
I think those are nice.

840
00:37:08,860 --> 00:37:10,220
Same reason we all go to conferences, right?

841
00:37:10,260 --> 00:37:12,380
You have focused attention on interesting topics.

842
00:37:12,620 --> 00:37:15,440
Also, as I recall, there was guacamole on the lunch line.

843
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,120
That's the sign of good catering.

844
00:37:18,300 --> 00:37:18,800
It was strong.

845
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:19,320
It was great.

846
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:19,920
And it was chunky.

847
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:21,460
It wasn't that frappe stuff.

848
00:37:21,540 --> 00:37:21,920
It wasn't good food.

849
00:37:22,140 --> 00:37:23,140
The Aria was a good place.

850
00:37:23,580 --> 00:37:33,580
You know, the other thing is I liked having it at SpringOne because – SpringOne platform, sorry – because it got them to the event as well.

851
00:37:33,900 --> 00:37:37,140
And I want them to feel the energy, right?

852
00:37:37,140 --> 00:37:37,720
You put it in context.

853
00:37:38,180 --> 00:37:38,340
Yeah.

854
00:37:38,460 --> 00:37:39,960
And talk to our customers and see our customers.

855
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:40,320
Right.

856
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:46,920
And so I think having – and again, there have been analyst days that are done just as individual kind of separate things.

857
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:52,740
But I tagged it on to SpringOne so that they could go to the sessions and just feel the energy.

858
00:37:52,740 --> 00:37:58,340
Well, I guess that answers the very insidery question I was going to have is like why you would have a separate analyst thing versus at a conference.

859
00:37:58,660 --> 00:38:01,720
Like, I mean, when I was an analyst, I always preferred – is this true?

860
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:06,100
I more or less – I pretty much always preferred having it at a conference, right?

861
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:07,640
Because you could go to the conference then.

862
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:07,960
Exactly.

863
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:08,500
Right?

864
00:38:08,500 --> 00:38:09,280
It's not two trips.

865
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:09,700
Yeah.

866
00:38:09,700 --> 00:38:11,080
I mean, these people travel a lot.

867
00:38:11,340 --> 00:38:11,500
Yeah.

868
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:11,940
Right?

869
00:38:12,020 --> 00:38:12,980
There were some exceptions.

870
00:38:13,180 --> 00:38:16,580
Like, I remember IBM had their big – everyone would call it the Mills event.

871
00:38:16,900 --> 00:38:23,600
But, like, there are – back when Steve Mills ran software and everything, there are some that are nice in the sense that the vendor is so huge.

872
00:38:23,740 --> 00:38:23,880
Right.

873
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:24,720
That it's –

874
00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:25,260
And that still happens.

875
00:38:25,380 --> 00:38:25,960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

876
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:26,280
That still happens.

877
00:38:26,380 --> 00:38:27,500
And the big vendors do that.

878
00:38:27,580 --> 00:38:28,520
They'll do that one or two days.

879
00:38:28,820 --> 00:38:32,460
Well, the other thing I saw you did a lot of, again, it's your matchmaking skills, I guess.

880
00:38:32,460 --> 00:38:36,380
But, you know, the analysts were also trying to double dip and not just sit here for an analyst day.

881
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:43,240
But then they would go off and grab the customer who presented a talk and go spend a half hour with them just peppering them with questions because they wanted to get a case study.

882
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:49,860
So I guess, you know, my question for you is, do the analysts typically make themselves available to the conference when they're done?

883
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:51,940
I mean, James Governor spoke and did a great job.

884
00:38:52,540 --> 00:38:54,840
Or is it kind of like, hey, I'm almost incognito.

885
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,420
I'm not going to be giving free consultations while I'm walking around.

886
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,120
Like, what's an analyst think when they go to a conference to participate in something like this?

887
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:05,100
Are they just sucking in information or are they trying to create a two-way conversation?

888
00:39:06,100 --> 00:39:09,860
I think probably more so sucking in information.

889
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:15,460
But they also like to talk to the customers and selectively and have a conversation.

890
00:39:15,460 --> 00:39:16,460
Oh, my gosh, you're so-and-so.

891
00:39:16,540 --> 00:39:17,460
Can we go chat about that?

892
00:39:17,780 --> 00:39:18,220
Yeah, exactly.

893
00:39:18,340 --> 00:39:19,060
It's a conversation.

894
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:19,500
Yeah.

895
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:23,160
I mean, they don't mind being asked their opinion.

896
00:39:23,340 --> 00:39:25,440
I mean, that's what they get paid to do, especially if it's an end user.

897
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,700
But mostly they're there to get the information.

898
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:33,760
And in our case, a lot of that information was being parsed by our customers, which was really great.

899
00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:39,520
And I think our customers also liked hearing the feedback from the analysts.

900
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:45,680
Again, to talk, to mention Red Monk and James, he wrote his trip report was pretty much about our customers.

901
00:39:46,140 --> 00:39:46,880
Yeah, that's true.

902
00:39:46,940 --> 00:39:47,120
Period.

903
00:39:47,500 --> 00:39:50,440
Like, it was not about, oh, Pivotal made these announcements and blah.

904
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:54,920
It was, here's a common thread I'm learning from their customers.

905
00:39:54,920 --> 00:40:00,600
And, again, it helped highlight some of that amazing work, for example, Allstate was doing, you know, and just.

906
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:05,720
Well, I mean, that's why I remember we spent virtually no time on competitors in this chat.

907
00:40:05,780 --> 00:40:07,280
Even when people ask, they could give an answer.

908
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:09,820
But we didn't spend analyst day bashing competitors.

909
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,060
Instead, it's like, here's some really great customers.

910
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:13,600
Here's some really cool product plans.

911
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:15,120
Here's what's already working today.

912
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,640
I like that vibe versus let's try to be defensive about our spot.

913
00:40:18,980 --> 00:40:25,660
Yeah, there's a set of questions of, like, that analysts ask that I always think is sort of like, well, I don't want to do your homework for you.

914
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:27,080
Right?

915
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:32,060
And I more started to pick up on this bucket of questions back when I would listen to other analysts when I was one.

916
00:40:32,180 --> 00:40:34,780
And, like, the competitor one is always a funny one.

917
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,080
It's like, I mean, you know, like, isn't that your job?

918
00:40:37,220 --> 00:40:37,400
Yeah.

919
00:40:37,500 --> 00:40:38,640
I think the only reason you ask.

920
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,580
That'd be funny if somebody said, who do you think it is?

921
00:40:41,580 --> 00:40:41,820
Yeah.

922
00:40:41,940 --> 00:40:48,480
And the other side of that is kind of what you're saying is, like, well, I mean, I'm happy to tell you who we compete with.

923
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:55,680
But, like, I'm more interested in, like, not – I mean, obviously, it's interesting to know about who you think the competitors are.

924
00:40:55,980 --> 00:41:03,280
But, like, from the perspective of the full title of an industry analyst, I'd be really interested to hear your framing of how you think the industry is, right?

925
00:41:03,340 --> 00:41:15,500
And so, like – and also, I mean, I'm also always overly hyper-aware of – I don't know how to categorize this in a word that's, like, rated G, but, like, analysts who are kind of, like, screwing with you.

926
00:41:15,780 --> 00:41:18,080
Like, they're intentionally, like –

927
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:18,800
They want to be provocative.

928
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:19,120
Yeah.

929
00:41:19,300 --> 00:41:19,560
It's like –

930
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:20,380
Could you make you uncomfortable?

931
00:41:20,580 --> 00:41:28,200
It's like the reporter side of being an analyst where they're trying to kind of, like, get you off your whatever and look behind the curtain, which is totally fair game.

932
00:41:28,240 --> 00:41:31,580
But I always feel like the competitor one is a little bit of that, right?

933
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:32,160
It's just like –

934
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:38,560
But to that point, I think what you said is important because if I ask a software vendor who your competitor is and they go, you know, we don't really have one.

935
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:39,680
We're defining the market.

936
00:41:40,180 --> 00:41:41,120
You know, I'm sell.

937
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:42,040
Sell right now.

938
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:44,040
It's totally, like, wrong answer.

939
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:50,640
So I think there's some truth to why you asked that, but I think the key would be this is why and let's keep moving because we don't –

940
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:50,780
Yeah.

941
00:41:50,900 --> 00:42:03,700
So that's what I was trying to get to is there's a series of, you know, Admiral Ackbar to traps that, like, questions analysts have where, like, if you don't – it's almost – it's not always this, but I'm always on guard that it's, like, this encoded way of seeing if you're giving honest answers.

942
00:42:03,700 --> 00:42:09,040
And, like, so if you say we have no competitors and it's sort of, like, they can go in to, like, you know, treat the witnesses hostile.

943
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:09,600
They'll do now.

944
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:10,120
Yeah.

945
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:14,100
Or if they accidentally say their biggest competitor is also one of their partners and we're all in the same –

946
00:42:14,100 --> 00:42:14,620
You know what?

947
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:14,820
No.

948
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:16,000
You're not at partners.

949
00:42:16,140 --> 00:42:17,220
They're actually trying to kill you.

950
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:18,460
Let's just be honest.

951
00:42:19,220 --> 00:42:25,300
So then the final question I add is, like, so – oh, let me make sure this – oh, there.

952
00:42:25,380 --> 00:42:29,320
See, I'm doing this on my phone, as you can tell, and I forgot to turn off the – what do you call it?

953
00:42:29,340 --> 00:42:30,040
Locking screen.

954
00:42:30,220 --> 00:42:30,380
Yeah.

955
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:31,720
So it's always freaking me out.

956
00:42:32,060 --> 00:42:33,420
I should do better work.

957
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:39,080
So, finally, if people who – whether they're – we have a variety of audience people.

958
00:42:39,140 --> 00:42:45,580
Whether they're people who work at Pivotal or they're prospects or customers, if they wanted to, like – what would be, like, the speaking of – what did you call it?

959
00:42:45,580 --> 00:42:46,060
Short listing?

960
00:42:46,580 --> 00:42:48,900
You had a good phrase for it that was, like, down-select.

961
00:42:49,140 --> 00:42:49,740
Down-select.

962
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:50,620
I like down-drafting.

963
00:42:50,780 --> 00:42:51,020
Yeah.

964
00:42:51,100 --> 00:42:51,880
That's my band name.

965
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:52,880
Exactly.

966
00:42:53,540 --> 00:42:58,560
So what would be the way that you would help people down-select the analysts that they should talk to?

967
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:03,720
Like, if they just – you know, like, what are, like, three or five or however many you feel like you should answer?

968
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,760
I'm sure there's just one you would like them all to talk to, but you want to be polite.

969
00:43:07,180 --> 00:43:09,340
But, like, who would you point them towards?

970
00:43:09,460 --> 00:43:10,320
Or are there specialties?

971
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:12,740
Say, look, if I want to talk about X, I would steer you here.

972
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:14,280
If I want to talk about this topic here.

973
00:43:14,340 --> 00:43:15,520
Or do you not even think that way?

974
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:16,820
No, I actually don't think that way.

975
00:43:16,820 --> 00:43:21,300
I think it depends on the company and what you're – and from what you want to learn about.

976
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:26,340
You know, there's some – you know, the two biggest firms cater to the same audience, right?

977
00:43:26,980 --> 00:43:27,920
They just do.

978
00:43:28,100 --> 00:43:33,720
Forrester and Gartner have the same – and oftentimes companies who are clients of Forrester are also clients of Gartner.

979
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:37,880
So if you're a large enterprise, you are likely talking to those folks.

980
00:43:38,100 --> 00:43:38,340
Right.

981
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:44,640
Even if you're a large enterprise – so this is something – this is a thought I had, actually, not too long ago, since joining Pivotal,

982
00:43:45,240 --> 00:43:54,980
is that if you are an enterprise and you're, you know, a high-level app dev leader and you're sort of in an ivory tower,

983
00:43:55,680 --> 00:44:02,060
I would probably suggest you talk to the analysts and the analyst firms who go to the developer conferences

984
00:44:02,060 --> 00:44:06,420
and are talking to developers and who know what's going on on the ground, you know.

985
00:44:06,620 --> 00:44:10,200
And in that case, you know, it's going to be Red Monk and it's going to be some of the Forrester guys for sure.

986
00:44:10,900 --> 00:44:11,880
They go to these events.

987
00:44:11,940 --> 00:44:12,760
I know that for a fact.

988
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:13,900
I just – because I follow them on Twitter.

989
00:44:14,380 --> 00:44:14,540
Yeah.

990
00:44:14,620 --> 00:44:16,720
So follow them on Twitter and then you can get a sense.

991
00:44:16,720 --> 00:44:22,620
And so that's one of the things that I kind of think about is, again, if you're in an ivory tower,

992
00:44:22,740 --> 00:44:27,320
am I saying, you know, your listeners are, why would you want to talk to somebody else who's sitting in an ivory tower?

993
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:31,640
You should be talking to the folks who are out there talking to your devs.

994
00:44:31,720 --> 00:44:36,900
That's an interesting, helpful point in the sense of you can use analysts to jump down the hierarchy.

995
00:44:37,540 --> 00:44:40,500
And I guess it would go the other way, although usually if you're at the bottom of the hierarchy,

996
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:41,640
you don't have the funding to do it.

997
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:46,420
But you can basically use it as a wormhole to, like, go up and down the kind of hierarchy.

998
00:44:46,420 --> 00:44:47,660
What are my developers doing?

999
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:48,800
What are they thinking about?

1000
00:44:48,940 --> 00:44:51,200
What are the new technologies that they're hot on?

1001
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:53,640
What makes them happy or productive, right?

1002
00:44:53,700 --> 00:44:58,820
Those are the things that the folks, like I said, that are going to the developer conferences are learning.

1003
00:44:59,020 --> 00:44:59,180
Yeah.

1004
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:03,600
Because they're not just talking to other people like you, right?

1005
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:03,720
Yeah.

1006
00:45:03,940 --> 00:45:06,200
You know, who you're trying to differentiate yourself from.

1007
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:06,600
Yeah.

1008
00:45:06,620 --> 00:45:06,780
Right?

1009
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,040
So that's one thing that I would consider when you're wondering.

1010
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:14,340
And then, for example, like Red Monk's model is they blog.

1011
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:16,380
They don't have – you know, you don't have paywalls.

1012
00:45:16,380 --> 00:45:19,580
So you can always read their stuff for free, which is always wonderful.

1013
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:21,640
And they do webcasts, things like that.

1014
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:26,480
So – and then I think 451 also often publishes free research.

1015
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:26,900
Yeah.

1016
00:45:27,240 --> 00:45:31,000
Some of their opinion pieces, they'll put them up for free for a little while.

1017
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:34,320
I know, like, there's a Nick Patience piece on digital transformation.

1018
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:34,840
Oh, yeah.

1019
00:45:35,020 --> 00:45:36,260
That was free for a while.

1020
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:38,720
And that was really a great piece to read.

1021
00:45:38,720 --> 00:45:39,220
It's like, why?

1022
00:45:39,860 --> 00:45:40,880
Why do digital transformation?

1023
00:45:41,720 --> 00:45:44,900
And it was a really good – you know, and anybody could download it for a little while.

1024
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:45,840
And same thing with Ovum.

1025
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:52,300
I think they also do – you know, Michael Azoff had written a piece about cognitive security.

1026
00:45:52,720 --> 00:45:53,980
Actually, I think that's how he put it.

1027
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:54,220
Right.

1028
00:45:54,340 --> 00:45:57,020
And it was also published as a column in a magazine.

1029
00:45:57,260 --> 00:46:01,800
So there's ways to get access to the content they publish, you know, and they'll do that.

1030
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:09,940
But, yeah, like I said, I think it's – if you want to know what's going on, talk to the folks that are out there, not just talking to people like you.

1031
00:46:10,240 --> 00:46:11,520
Yeah, that makes sense.

1032
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:12,880
Yeah, one more thing for you.

1033
00:46:12,940 --> 00:46:17,340
So when they are talking to people not like them and they don't see someone they expect.

1034
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:22,620
So let's say you look at a wave, quadrant, triangle, whatever shape, and you don't see Pivotal.

1035
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:24,460
What are they supposed to do about that?

1036
00:46:24,500 --> 00:46:26,860
Just go, meh, I didn't get – guess they get included?

1037
00:46:27,020 --> 00:46:31,480
Or do I expect that – hey, you're allowed to call Gardner and say, hey, tell me a little more about why they weren't in there.

1038
00:46:31,580 --> 00:46:32,160
What criteria?

1039
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:32,760
How does that work?

1040
00:46:32,820 --> 00:46:34,340
A new idea for you marketing folks.

1041
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:38,460
We'll make little stickers that we'll send out and you can just stick it in your printout.

1042
00:46:38,460 --> 00:46:39,060
How about that?

1043
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:39,640
There you go.

1044
00:46:40,240 --> 00:46:43,760
You can put the Pivotal name on the – stick down there.

1045
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:47,140
That reminds me of like a core, like a tiny little Annie pattern.

1046
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:52,060
I remember in multiple organizations people saying that they tell this to like field-facing people.

1047
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:56,440
It's like you cannot take a screenshot of the Magic Quadrant and put where you think you should be on it.

1048
00:46:57,280 --> 00:46:59,360
Which happens to surprisingly –

1049
00:46:59,360 --> 00:46:59,840
I'm sure.

1050
00:47:00,240 --> 00:47:05,120
So one of the things actually – so with the wave, I don't know how they'll address this.

1051
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:12,260
Like the wave will sometimes mention – or Forrester will mention people who weren't in it for whatever reason, but who should be considered anyway.

1052
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:21,320
The Quadrant folks, what they're doing actually is there's something called Peer Insights, which is – for lack of a better term, it's like Yelp for IT.

1053
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:26,200
So if you are – if you like to write reviews, check out Peer Insights, all right?

1054
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:29,160
I think it's like Gartner slash reviews or Gartner.com slash reviews.

1055
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:33,820
And there's categories of – unfortunately, they don't have a category that we would fit in yet.

1056
00:47:34,220 --> 00:47:34,460
Sure.

1057
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:36,920
It's coming any quarter now.

1058
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:43,080
So – and what they're doing is they're tying that to the Magic Quadrant.

1059
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:53,520
So if you're not a Gartner client, right, you don't have a subscription, but you want to know what your peers are saying about some of the technology platforms you check out Peer Reviews.

1060
00:47:53,580 --> 00:47:58,540
So what they're doing is they're linking the MQs to the Peer Insights stuff.

1061
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:06,760
So if you are on the MQ, you click on the dot, and then that will take you to the peer – first it will pop up a little, like, oh, this is how many stars they have out of five.

1062
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:14,220
Then you can go and look at – but the cool thing is that will also take you to the Peer Insights page for that category.

1063
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:20,020
So if you're not in the MQ and you have enough reviews in that category, you can learn about that.

1064
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:33,080
So, for example, you know, they can – if they do end up, like, in the APAZ Peer Insights section, there might be a bunch of Pivotal reviews posted on there, and they can learn about Pivotal that way.

1065
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:35,140
Even though we're not in the APAZ at the moment.

1066
00:48:35,180 --> 00:48:35,480
Exactly.

1067
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:37,880
So, I mean, I'm just using that as an example.

1068
00:48:38,140 --> 00:48:42,960
They don't have a PaaZ section in Peer Insights yet.

1069
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:44,840
Is that that company they bought?

1070
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:51,260
Like, there's – I even think maybe they're in Austin, but Gartner bought some company that was, like, a user review thing.

1071
00:48:51,340 --> 00:48:52,160
I'll have to go look that up.

1072
00:48:52,260 --> 00:48:53,080
Yeah, check that out.

1073
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:54,220
Yeah, so that's exciting.

1074
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:56,500
And I think it's actually – it was a good move for Gartner to do that.

1075
00:48:56,700 --> 00:48:56,940
Yeah.

1076
00:48:57,060 --> 00:48:58,780
Because they need to – how do they stay relevant, right?

1077
00:48:58,780 --> 00:49:00,160
Like, back to the ivory tower conversation.

1078
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:00,460
Right.

1079
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:04,500
Well, you have anything else you want to tell our listeners about the exciting world of analysts?

1080
00:49:04,500 --> 00:49:13,860
Well, something I've been thinking about specifically since joining Pivotal and just hearing the different kinds of conversations is that the industry analyst,

1081
00:49:13,860 --> 00:49:21,560
they're – so for years, they would get calls asking about, like, feature-to-feature comparisons on things.

1082
00:49:21,660 --> 00:49:23,260
And that's their easy black-and-white kind of thing.

1083
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:23,480
Okay.

1084
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:23,700
Yeah.

1085
00:49:24,380 --> 00:49:34,040
But with these changing paradigms, right, of how to develop applications or run them, you know, cloud architectures, microservices,

1086
00:49:34,580 --> 00:49:43,020
they're getting a lot more questions about culture, which, you know, is – I don't want to say that it's outside of their comfort zone,

1087
00:49:43,140 --> 00:49:45,840
but it's not – they're not used to talking about those things, right?

1088
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:47,520
So these are new things.

1089
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:54,140
So this is – it's always interesting to see how they – what kind of advice they give in that, right?

1090
00:49:54,140 --> 00:50:04,720
And they need – and the thing is, I think they just need to hear more from end-user organizations and customers about what – how they – the cultural changes they went through

1091
00:50:04,720 --> 00:50:09,660
or what they had to do to get – to change the people in the process aspect of the –

1092
00:50:09,660 --> 00:50:18,460
Yeah, that – I mean, it'd be interesting to compare, like, fuzzy thoughts on this, but, like, there's, like, the analysts who cover agile software development.

1093
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:21,200
Like, I think Forrester has a group specifically doing that.

1094
00:50:21,340 --> 00:50:25,560
And I feel like I don't – if there's not a group, there's several analysts at Gartner who do that.

1095
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:37,560
And, like, it's kind of an interesting – because you could erroneously have that only be about tools that you could buy that you would be using during doing agile software development.

1096
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:39,660
And I think some firms maybe fall into that trap.

1097
00:50:39,780 --> 00:50:47,600
But, like, really, it kind of gets to this point of, like, there being industry analysts about how the industry is doing the work.

1098
00:50:47,900 --> 00:50:49,020
I mean, and it is, like –

1099
00:50:49,020 --> 00:50:49,580
Yeah, it's –

1100
00:50:49,580 --> 00:50:55,900
But that – and maybe there's a few areas off in IT management land where there's, like, the ITEL people and stuff like that.

1101
00:50:55,940 --> 00:50:56,520
But, yeah, you're right.

1102
00:50:56,580 --> 00:51:03,080
Like, it's this – I don't commonly think, aside from what I was just saying, of analysts covering the how you use stuff so much.

1103
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:07,600
Yeah, and it's – this is why I think it's even more important for them to be talking to end-users.

1104
00:51:07,900 --> 00:51:08,140
Yeah.

1105
00:51:08,260 --> 00:51:09,240
As a matter of fact, right?

1106
00:51:09,260 --> 00:51:12,200
Because it's not just, here, pick this tool because you need to do this.

1107
00:51:13,020 --> 00:51:18,120
This is – they're hungrier even more now to hear how people have done it.

1108
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:23,020
So they can go back and say, here's how – and they don't have to name the company.

1109
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:26,780
But, hey, I talked to a large organization who had the same issue, and this is how they did it.

1110
00:51:26,860 --> 00:51:27,040
Yeah.

1111
00:51:27,220 --> 00:51:27,460
Right?

1112
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:28,700
And this is what they learned.

1113
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:32,440
So they're even more – I mean, an analyst we talked to today was, like, I don't care about tools.

1114
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:34,520
I want to hear about use cases.

1115
00:51:34,860 --> 00:51:35,060
Yeah.

1116
00:51:35,060 --> 00:51:39,760
So that's another thing that's been changing, and it's kind of fun to watch.

1117
00:51:39,940 --> 00:51:40,260
Well, good.

1118
00:51:40,420 --> 00:51:40,940
Well, great.

1119
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,580
Well, I'm sure we'll have you on in what will feel to be like a year.

1120
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:45,060
Another year.

1121
00:51:45,060 --> 00:51:47,560
But maybe it'll just be six months, which will be great.

1122
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:47,560
I'm glad.

1123
00:51:47,660 --> 00:51:48,280
It's always fun.

1124
00:51:48,380 --> 00:51:50,280
I'm always nervous before these, and then I get on.

1125
00:51:50,340 --> 00:51:51,140
I'm, like, this is great.

1126
00:51:51,220 --> 00:51:51,560
That's right.

1127
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:54,640
But what's the next big analyst event we have coming up?

1128
00:51:57,160 --> 00:51:58,440
Pop quiz for you.

1129
00:51:58,700 --> 00:51:58,780
No.

1130
00:51:59,180 --> 00:52:02,160
So nothing imminent.

1131
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:03,620
Like, I think, you know, end of year.

1132
00:52:03,620 --> 00:52:06,000
There's kind of a pause until maybe spring or so.

1133
00:52:06,100 --> 00:52:06,120
Yeah, I know.

1134
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:08,720
There's places like CES and, like, the Mobile World Congress that happens.

1135
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:10,180
Those are analyst-specific events.

1136
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:12,840
I think Red Monk's Monkey Gra is happening in March.

1137
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:13,460
So springtime.

1138
00:52:13,500 --> 00:52:13,860
Oh, that's right.

1139
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:14,900
So I think Monkey – oh, no, wait.

1140
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:16,780
Monkey Gra is happening end of January in London.

1141
00:52:17,180 --> 00:52:17,480
Oh, that's right.

1142
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:20,000
So that's happening, and we're sponsoring that, I believe.

1143
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:24,360
So that's – check out the website, and if you're an end user who likes to talk about

1144
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:25,480
what you're doing, check it out.

1145
00:52:25,780 --> 00:52:25,980
Yeah.

1146
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:27,060
Submit a paper.

1147
00:52:27,900 --> 00:52:29,400
That's another thing is, like, submit a paper.

1148
00:52:29,540 --> 00:52:30,960
It's cool, like, especially for the Red Monk.

1149
00:52:31,340 --> 00:52:31,800
Yeah, yeah.

1150
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:33,360
They always have great giveaways.

1151
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:34,180
Yeah, exactly.

1152
00:52:35,100 --> 00:52:40,040
And then there's, yeah, and then there's, I think, a Data and Analytics Summit in March,

1153
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:42,080
and then, you know, that's summertime.

1154
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:42,660
Keep going.

1155
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:43,000
Yeah.

1156
00:52:43,060 --> 00:52:43,340
Yeah.

1157
00:52:43,460 --> 00:52:43,860
Well, great.

1158
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:46,240
Well, as always, this has been Pivotal Conversations.

1159
00:52:46,240 --> 00:52:49,940
You can find, as quickly as possible, rule one, you should subscribe.

1160
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:51,140
And then you'll get it right away.

1161
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:53,960
You can find that in iTunes or Overcast or wherever.

1162
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:58,780
And also, if you go to SoundCloud.com slash Pivotal Conversations, just all one word.

1163
00:52:58,820 --> 00:53:00,840
I think you can capitalize it however you like.

1164
00:53:00,940 --> 00:53:01,500
It's very entertaining.

1165
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:02,000
You're shouting.

1166
00:53:02,240 --> 00:53:03,140
You can call caps.

1167
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:04,880
And then what, I always get it wrong.

1168
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:06,920
What's the URL we have, the official Pivotal one?

1169
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:09,580
Well, Pivotal.io slash blog.

1170
00:53:09,980 --> 00:53:10,200
Yeah.

1171
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:11,560
Or podcast somewhere.

1172
00:53:11,980 --> 00:53:12,780
We're not good at that.

1173
00:53:12,780 --> 00:53:13,560
Just search for it.

1174
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:16,700
But that's where we post the full show notes that we keep alluding to.

1175
00:53:16,860 --> 00:53:17,000
Yep.

1176
00:53:17,180 --> 00:53:21,020
And also, like, if you like this podcast, or even if you don't like it, you should do the

1177
00:53:21,020 --> 00:53:21,360
following.

1178
00:53:21,820 --> 00:53:26,080
You should go into iTunes and give us, like, five stars or, like, leave a review.

1179
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:30,200
And in your review, you can talk about how you like to work with analysts, you know, your

1180
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:32,180
thoughts on them, and also just that we're a great podcast.

1181
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:36,140
Or if you're listening in Overcast, as most people are, I have no idea what this actually

1182
00:53:36,140 --> 00:53:38,900
does, but you should just open it up and click the little recommended button.

1183
00:53:39,460 --> 00:53:41,040
I don't know what that does, but it looks great.

1184
00:53:41,300 --> 00:53:43,780
So thanks for listening, and we'll see everyone next time.