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So I'm up here with a big hunk of ham that I'm eating, which made me think, so at least for people in the U.S. or people who like to follow the United States sort of traditions, what are your tips for the post-Thanksgiving warm-up exercises to get back into the swing of things, doing work?

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And let me end with a statement, as I like to do. I find this a challenging part of the year for at least two reasons. Well, I'm not in sales, so it's not because I have to finally go get everyone to buy. If I remember, all great deals are made at December 31st at 11.59 p.m. I think that's what happens then. So I don't have that to worry about.

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But it seems like you've got this issue of Thanksgiving, and then there's the, as we say nowadays, holidays, the holiday break, and you've got this weird little donut hole of supposed productivity in the middle.

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So, like, what do you do to motivate yourself? I mean, other than being a responsible, professional human being, I assume.

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Naturally. Well-paid professionals who should take six weeks off.

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Yeah, no, I mean, I think it's...

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The German solution.

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You and I have the, I think, the Gartner Conference next week. So sometimes it's not a bad deal to have a conference in this season.

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I think it might keep you a little focused.

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No, that's clever. That's clever. You're sort of, like, stacking the deck in your favor.

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Right.

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Yeah, so I think that's helping me. You know, and that's also a time of year to, a lot of companies have shipped out, and we'll talk about in the news, some cool new tech.

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So, even if your day-to-day work isn't super inspiring, go, you know, disappear for a day and try something new and get some inspiration that maybe you'll bring into your company next year.

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So, I try to do those things. I just wrote a giant blog post I put live this morning about, you know, PCF on Azure and Concourse and spent a lot of time on it.

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It was fun, but it was something that kept me inspired over the Thanksgiving when the kids were too noisy.

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No, you know, you raise a good, a good, it doesn't really address the question, but it's sort of a tactic.

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I had a friend, well, I guess he's still a friend, an old architect friend, this guy Chip Holden, and he used to kind of relish this time of year because so many people would be out of the office, you know, on vacation, and that he would, like, be able to sit there and get a lot of work done.

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So, he would sort of, not that he would delay his stuff, but, you know, he would plan his stuff around that, which seemed like an interesting tactic.

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Now, this reminds me, yeah, we are going to be at the Gartner Application Strategies and Solution, which if you do the initialization on that is a slightly tragically named conference, but never mind that, next week in Las Vegas.

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Now, I was just, hopefully we'll have a few live to tape from recordings there.

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We are going to have Rita come back to tell us what's going on in the analyst world.

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I thought that would be apropos or apropos.

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I don't know how to pronounce Latin.

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I was not trained in that.

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But most importantly, you'll be there, right?

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I don't know if our buddy Andrew Schaefer will be there or not, but I see that it's still at Caesar's Palace, which means we need to schedule going to the, I don't know how to pronounce the French person's name, despite my name, but there's this French guy.

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And he has a restaurant in there, and there's a little hidden part in the back where they make crepes.

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I think I said that right.

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Very challenging episode for me here.

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But they have, they have a, they have a, a, a, a, a, what do you call the eggs with hollandaise sauce on them?

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Not Bernays.

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It's a.

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No, I know.

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That's the sauce though, isn't it?

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The Benedict.

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They have, they have, they have, they have an eggs Benedict that has lobster in it.

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And, and I think, I think you and I, and whoever else we can recruit, we need to go order that.

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Because I, I dream about that all year.

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And I've tried to recreate it other places.

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I went where we had the SpringOne platform conference was in the, um, the ARIA, I think.

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And they had one of these Jean-Philippe French guy, uh, things there, but they did not offer that.

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It was quite the letdown.

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The rest of the conference is wonderful and great.

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Lots of recordings on YouTube.

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You should check out.

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But that one item, they, uh, the ARIA could have done better.

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But this next week, we'll, uh, we'll get one.

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And, and listen, if you don't want to eat yours, just order one and I'll eat it.

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No, I mean, I'm excited about the conference and now eating this food with you.

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It seems like the tagline should be, let's go make some mistakes.

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So come to Vegas.

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Some creamy mistakes.

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That's right.

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Uh, well, speaking of the opposite of making mistakes, I think you wrote this up, right?

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That we did some recent performance tests with, uh, Pivotal Cloud Foundry.

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Was it Cloud Foundry or Pivotal Cloud Foundry?

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We did this in concert with the foundation-y folks.

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So we definitely had some, some help.

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We, I think we led the effort, but worked with IBM and others to get, uh, one PCF or

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one CF environment with 250,000 containers sustained in there.

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So that's a big milestone, not just for the kind of numbers porn that people like to talk

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about, like, Hey, look at our great stats, but it was also the, the nature of the test

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was really good for us.

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I think it was, it wasn't just like, Hey, let's crank as much as we can into this thing.

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And then shut it off and just prove we did it.

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It was, Hey, let's actually try to see what it means to sustain load.

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And what does it mean to deploy more apps when you already have 200,000 in there?

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And let's run this for a week and let's make sure all these apps are crashing.

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There are many of these apps are constantly crashing because that's real life and how the

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system handles it.

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So it was just a really good sustainable test.

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We proved this at scale.

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It ran on the Google compute platform or the Google cloud platform performed great.

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All of our test material is publicly available.

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So anyone could recreate this if they have a few thousand VM sitting around.

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Now, do you, do you have a sense?

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So those are AIs that we're running, right?

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I'm always, I'm always looking for a ratio of application to AIs and I've, and I've, I've

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done lots of research and my conclusion is basically like, it depends, which is always the most

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helpful and helpless answer.

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But like, you know, when, when you look at these, like how, in your mind, what does that

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kind of represent as far as a range of applications?

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Yeah, we did.

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So that was the other part of the test I really liked.

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So we did batches of 25 instances made up of 20 apps, if you will.

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So you had 20 different types of apps, you had 25 instances.

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And so these apps had different profiles, different memory usage, different storage.

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Some of them had different outbound network rates of when they would invoke external web

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services, you know, different crashing ratios.

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So many of these apps were going to crash every 30 seconds, whatever it was.

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And then we would then 10,000 of those batches in of 25 instances to get to a quarter million.

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So the idea was to try to not just make this completely contrived, like, hey, here's a

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bunch of tiny hello world, no JS apps.

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Hey, look what we just did.

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Like nobody, that's not real life.

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Nobody runs that.

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So we did want to make sure that multiple app instances, different kind of memory consumption,

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you know, those sorts of things that all of our listeners, our customers deal with,

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which is, you know, big apps, little apps, a lot of instances, only a couple of instances.

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You want to make sure that the load balancing works.

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You want to make sure the DNS updates are fast.

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You know, that's what has to happen.

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And none of our customers are running quarter of a million containers yet.

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We're trying to be well ahead of where our customers are at.

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But hey, we want to make sure we're staying well ahead of that.

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So when they start hitting these limits, we're proven at that point.

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Yeah.

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So also in Foundation News, they have a new executive director.

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I think that's the title she's taken, right?

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Instead of CEO.

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Grand Poobah.

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Grand Poobah.

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So we have Sam Ramsey.

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He went to go work at Google on their cloud stuff.

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And then Abby, Abby Kearns, who she, I actually worked with her when I was first here.

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And now she's the executive director.

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She's great.

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She's very enthusiastic about all this stuff.

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And generally, like all of us, knows what we're talking about.

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Maybe even beyond generally.

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She just plain knows what she's talking about.

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I generally know what I'm talking about.

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Yeah, we're excited about that.

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I mean, it'll be good to get, I think, her and Chip, who also took, I think, a CIO or CTO role in the foundation on the podcast.

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We can harass them a bit.

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But it's great.

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It's showing that, look, I mean, it was something James Watters tweeted out that, hey, people who are associated with Cloud Foundry have great career choices.

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And Sam just took a great leading position.

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A lot of our customers keep showing this.

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A lot of people at Pivotal and others and partners that, hey, when you, you know, bet on a technology that helps change businesses, that seems to do well for you professionally.

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So Abby's doing great.

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Sam's doing great.

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The foundation's super healthy.

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It's great to see the sort of evolution.

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And it's always good to have a good bench, right?

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You never want to have a person leave and things crumble.

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You always want to know you have an awesome succession plan.

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So in this case, they did.

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Yeah, you know, she, we were at, I forget which conference it was, but she was here in Austin for something.

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And she, she walked, I live in Austin and she walked me down to a coffee shop I didn't even know existed.

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It was amazing.

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It was just like, it was basically through a, is copse the right word?

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Through like a copse of bushes and trees, like, like right on the water, there was this deck coffee shop.

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And, you know, she's from La-Di-Da, San Francisco land, where they take their coffee really seriously and do all sorts of stuff.

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And she seemed to approve of this coffee.

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So that was great.

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And, you know, also I, I went in, in reading about this transition, like, uh, I didn't realize, well, I didn't realize, I didn't think about the, uh, the Cloud Foundry Foundation being around for like two years.

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I've had my, uh, my head up in slides so much that I haven't been paying attention to the timeline, just the, uh, just the light box view.

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And, and it is like, uh, man, it's been around a while.

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And I think, I think a little, you know, a little to what you're alluding to a bit, like they, uh, I think they've done a good job being like the, the independent, uh, foundation to look over the code and, uh, sort of shepherd all the people working on it.

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It's, uh, it's worked out pretty well.

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I think it's nice.

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Yeah.

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Those things aren't easy and we'll talk about them more when we get them on the podcast, but, you know, foundations can either be a boat anchor on your progress or they could be help be a good facilitator.

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So I think in this case, we've, we've proven it to be a pretty good facilitator.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And, and, and for a long time listeners, you might remember that we had, uh, we had chip on a long time ago when, uh, when Apache Con was in Austin and we were overlooking his, uh, his Hyatt view.

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Good times.

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Good times.

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So, uh, so there's also like, like, uh, there's a bunch of Microsoft.

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It seems like maybe it's just with selection bias because you, you like Microsoft stuff, but there always seems to be a lot of Microsoft stuff each time we record.

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Like we have, uh, we have pivotal cloud foundry supported on Azure and, uh, and, and then, and then there's sort of more evidence of, I don't know what you would call it.

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Like, cause .NET is mainstream, but maybe even going more mainstream that you have Google joining the .NET foundation, which is sort of, uh, you know, it's, uh, we're, we're way beyond cats and dogs.

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We're through the cats and dogs looking glass to mix metaphors, like, like Microsoft is sort of like normal.

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Yeah.

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I mean, it's bizarro world now.

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I think we've just accepted that that's the case with these sort of things.

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So, yeah, I mean, you've got visual studio for the Mac, you've got Google and the .NET foundation.

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You've got, you know, a lot of things going public, as we mentioned, you know, a couple of weeks ago, PCF officially supported on Azure and all their regions, all their fun stuff.

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So, yeah, you're, you're biasing the audience by saying that somehow I'm a Homer, so I appreciate that on Microsoft news.

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But yeah, no, they, they, we've, you know, we're doing good stuff with them.

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You know, we spend a lot of time with that team when it comes to enterprise customers, there's arguably nobody who has more great relationships than Microsoft does.

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So that overlaps a ton with who pivotal works with.

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So that's great to see.

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But then, yeah, sure, industry wise as a whole, they've been doing a lot of interesting things, clearly in open source and trying to, I think, get rid of that reputation as this kind of aggressive closed source company.

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And, you know, .NET has had a renaissance of sorts and .NET Core is now cross-platform and, you know, just like arguably Spring Boot with Java, kind of resuscitating that from maybe becoming a legacy tech, .NET Core and .NET Foundation and open sourcing, I think has made .NET back to being a true first class citizen, even for people doing startups and not just, you know, the, the enterprises who have a lot of existing apps.

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I think it's new people looking at .NET as a great choice.

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Yeah, you know, it reminds me, I was, I was talking with someone over the weekend who works on big, big, I don't know, enterprise IT deals.

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And, and they, they were saying, you know, there's this, they, they were in this kind of wait and see thing of like, it seems like there's this wave of just like Microsoft stack stuff out there that just has to sort of not metaphor, well, metaphorically be turned on for people to have access to doing it.

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And I think not really knowing Microsoft strategy intimately at all, just from what I observe, like it does seem like there's this slow but steady incremental adding of having basically the Microsoft stack supported everywhere, including Azure on its own, which will allow a lot of the, you know, I'm sure I could go to IDC and maybe quantify all the .NET sort of installs.

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But it seems like there's a lot of technology on that stack that if it were allowed a place to, we'll have to come up with a new term rather than like forklift, but sort of like maybe white glove lift, just sort of moved new stacks that it would pretty easily, to use another metaphor, just sort of like a sleeping giant can kind of roll over and, you know, crush whatever's underneath it.

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So we'll see.

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Yeah, they're trying to be everywhere.

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I mean, they demonstrated SQL Server and Linux.

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You know, they're showing that we want our software running everywhere if you're Microsoft.

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That seems to be the thing that they're big on right now.

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And, you know, I think everyone's willing to oblige.

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Google loves, I'm sure, Microsoft workloads.

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Amazon, I think, is one of the biggest payers of software licensing to Microsoft that they have because of all the Windows instances.

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So, you know what, the more places they run, the more company, the more money the company makes.

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So then here's one.

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Hopefully you can explain to me.

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So we had Oracle last week.

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This was last week, right?

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They announced they were acquiring, is it DIN or DINE?

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DINE.

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Yeah, I'm not a networking person, as people know.

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But like, so they basically, it's like a DNS service, right?

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It's like the Akamai of DNS.

201
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Yeah, it's DNS plus and a really good company had that giant denial of service attack that seemed to take the Internet down in October.

202
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So that's how most people all of a sudden realized there was a company called DINE that ran a lot of the Internet.

203
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But, but like, what, what do you make of that?

204
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I should have a whole podcast one day called What Do You Make of That?

205
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But like, but like, that doesn't seem like a core Oracle business.

206
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Well, I think if they're, I think if they're saying we're in on cloud,

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that having DNS is big on cloud, you know, Amazon's got Route 53 that does their DNS service.

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Azure has some DNS services.

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So I think to some extent, this is saying, look, we want to have the whole path from when you type in your browser saying,

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I want to go hit this website to resolution to hosting it on our Oracle cloud and data store in our Oracle database.

211
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So it's an interesting buy.

212
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You wonder if they got a discount post denial of service stuff.

213
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But it's a, it's an interesting buy.

214
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I mean, you know, I don't know how successful that is, but it shows.

215
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I have a, I have a recording of my other podcast.

216
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Well, the other main one, software defined talk later.

217
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I'll see, I'll see if I can get those two guys' opinion on it.

218
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But it seems like I can see that there, there would be this, this corporate strategy deck that you had.

219
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And you might have a slide that's like, on the left side is like the old middleware stack and dollar amounts next to Oracle's take on each of those.

220
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And then the new middleware stack, right?

221
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And I could see that something like that would fit into the new middleware as far as transitioning over.

222
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Like, like you're saying, it's a, as we used to call it, a control point that you have in all this stuff going forward.

223
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So sure.

224
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Sounds groovy.

225
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Yeah.

226
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Exciting.

227
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So then next week we'll have to see, we'll have to talk about what happened in, at reInvent, the big Amazon confab.

228
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I'm sure there'll be all sorts of exciting stuff coming out of there.

229
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It's always fun to see the, the sort of customers that they have and what they're doing and what, what new services and things Amazon comes out with.

230
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But you got any, you got any predictions, anything that you're looking forward to, or is it just going to be lots of, lots of lobster eggs Benedict late to the night?

231
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Yeah.

232
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I mean, there's been some little leaks here and there of stuff.

233
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Again, I don't think price war stuff that used to be the hallmark of some of these conferences was, Hey, we're slashing prices.

234
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And I went to the first reInvent back in 2012, which was great, but it's also gotten to be a really big conference.

235
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So you just wonder, you know, does the tone change?

236
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Does it become, you know, a little bit more of a convention versus just a conference and, and that sort of thing?

237
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Or can you keep some of the customer focus and technical depth or do you start to generalize things?

238
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So we'll see in the conference itself, what the vibe is, but technology wise, you know, you'll probably see additional partnerships, additional new services.

239
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Of course.

240
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The questions just will be is where do they continue to encroach on partners and other cloud providers as we're still in this race war between, you know, Google and Microsoft and others and making sure that who has the coolest features, who has the best software, who's innovating the most.

241
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And so everyone's in this race.

242
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And so it's, it's fun to watch, I guess, as an observer, it's got to be stressful if you're one of the other cloud providers, because you're always one upping each other.

243
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But I think you're going to try to continue to see them raise the bar because there's been enough chatter over the last year or so.

244
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It's, Hey, is Azure catching up?

245
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Hey, is Google about to make a play?

246
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Is Amazon going to get toppled?

247
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And you wonder if this is going to be them putting the pedal to the floor and stretching the distance again.

248
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Yeah.

249
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It's always fun around, around reinvent to see all the, the hand-wringing articles and like major publications about what does it all mean?

250
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Like that, that's always, that's always a good effect too, to kind of see how it's percolating out.

251
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Like that'll be my podcast.

252
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You'll have, what's the deal with that?

253
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I'll have the other one.

254
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It'll be from the, the what podcasting network, the, the five what's, but yeah, you know, it's a, see, you, you, you, you, that, that was so entertaining.

255
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I lost my segue.

256
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It's terrible.

257
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Well, you're talking about the kind of, you know, there's going to be all the pontificating about what, you know, what does it mean to competitors?

258
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What does it mean to customers?

259
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What does it mean to Amazon as they continue to, to evolve as a company?

260
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So you'll see a lot of talking head thought pieces, arguably by people who haven't used their technology ever, but that's, that's a different topic.

261
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That's fine.

262
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I like to comment on stuff I've never used ever that I'm not an expert on.

263
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That's a, that, that always works out.

264
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Well, so I, I thought, uh, we don't have a guest this episode, as you can probably tell.

265
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I think we'll, we'll have some, uh, next week, like I was saying, if not just ourselves.

266
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And then we've got another one scheduled to talk more about containers, uh, after that over the next, like two or three episodes.

267
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But I thought we could talk more about like, uh, some process stuff and conveniently things I have written.

268
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So I don't have to think that much.

269
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It would be very exciting.

270
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Uh, but there is a sort of a means of a segueing.

271
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There was a, uh, I forget when it was sometime last week.

272
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There was, there was an article written up in the, uh, New York times that had, had, I think it had, it was, I don't know if it was only one, but it had one of our, uh, off-sited and, and, uh, more publicly speaking customers, all state.

273
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There was, uh, Doug there who spoke at our SpringOne platform conference, but it's an interesting article.

274
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Uh, you know, I, I, I remember, uh, when, when, when Richard was suggesting it this morning, I remember like, I remember reading this and thinking it was a little weird.

275
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Uh, so I went back and read it, but it really, it's, it's only weird because it discusses several things and, and it fit, it would fit well in our, uh, our, uh, mythical podcasting network.

276
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Cause it's really seeking to explain, I think, like if, if you look at how cloud technologies are, are driving a new way of thinking about how you, uh, innovate and do it more specific, not more specifically, but mostly how you do your custom written software.

277
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There's a little bit of SAS stuff in there as well, but it's sort of looking at a collection of, of how new technologies and new ways of thinking about using them are changing the way companies operate and, and how they go about doing things.

278
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Um, and there's a little bit of like, uh, effect in there, right?

279
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Like there's the usual hand wringing over like, uh, uh, uh, work-life balance or mix as someone at, at, uh, at chef calls it, but it's a, it's a nice brief take sort of like a dipstick into the state of like corporate it at the moment, which, which I think is, is, uh, worth looking at.

280
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What was your impression of it?

281
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Yeah.

282
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I always like geeking out over just seeing, you know, our customers in public forums, being able to talk about their success, right?

283
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I mean, I think arguably we all work at places to make some sort of difference.

284
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So it's fun to see companies like all state transform in part with help from pivotal, but clearly they've powered this a lot on their home with their own talent and skill and folks.

285
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So I know, again, it was a good take of that.

286
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The, you know, the old way isn't going to help these companies adjust to a new reality.

287
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And it's, it's cool to see companies start to adopt that, not wholesale, right?

288
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And, you know, Coté, you spent a lot of time with them.

289
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It's like the whole company is doing this at the moment, but they've done a nice job incubating it and they've been starting to spread that.

290
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And I think that's a really nice pattern for people who still are super intimidated by trying to become cloudy the way they do.

291
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Yeah.

292
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I was, I forget if I mentioned this here, but I was up in, uh, I was at the, the, the Chicago pivotal labs office where they have, they have some of the, as all state calls it,

293
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composed people, they even have a big sign.

294
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And, and I didn't get to see the, the main floor that they have there, just the, the sort of part where they started off in labs.

295
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And I also talked with several other customers and, and the, the, uh, the stories of, of how these large organizations are adopting agile are pretty similar.

296
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And, and it's, it's only a couple of paragraphs, uh, where Doug is talking in there, but like his sentiment is pretty much what everyone, uh, goes over that we talk with.

297
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And, you know, it essentially, and I was, I was talking with someone over the, uh, over the Thanksgiving break about this very topic where, uh, you're in an organization, usually a large one.

298
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And you have all this for lack of a kinder word bureaucracy, just all this governance and stuff that you have to go through just to like get software out the door.

299
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Like the, the, the, one of the conversations I had recently, there was, I kept kind of needling at it.

300
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And the other person was having kind of that delightful fun, like, like you can't buy pushing on a bruise or picking out a scab or whatever.

301
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It was sort of like, so what you're telling me is that there's a big crisis going on because someone who's monitoring the process hasn't been documenting the process monitoring correctly.

302
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Like nevermind if the software runs or if it has the features you want, it's just the documentation of the process has been done incorrectly.

303
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And this is creating all sorts of freak outs.

304
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And I think, you know, that kind of thing is emblematic and, and it's sort of, I was, there's another person I was talking with who was, who was saying, uh, the organization they were talking with didn't want to stop and address all their technical debt.

305
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And, you know, other than just rolling your eyes, I think, I think the thing you do in all these situations is say like, as long as you're aware that the product you're working on is the process itself and not the actual product, go ahead.

306
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Right. Like, like, like if all you want to ship is that you followed a process and not actually ship software, then you're doing a great job.

307
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And I think, uh, you see that sentiment, you know, Doug kind of speaks to that sentiment and, and, um, melting or tearing or, or artfully removing as if you're restoring the Sistine Chapel or something like remove, removing these old layers of things and instead replacing them with a much more agile and nimble thing.

308
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And, you know, as we're always espousing, a lot of this is enabled by, uh, the automation that you have in cloud technologies, right?

309
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It, it doesn't, it doesn't anymore literally take weeks to order and bring online a server or the networking gear.

310
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You can just do it within seconds, if not minutes, I guess you're supposed to reverse that little trope, but, uh, you know, you can do it so fast that all these vestigial, uh, governance and things that you had in place.

311
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It's not that all of them need to be eliminated, but it's, it's probably much worth your while to revisit this.

312
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And, uh, just as one last thing before I, in my little mini monologue here, I was, I was finishing up my, uh, well, I'm trying to finish up.

313
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I'm almost done, uh, with, with my, um, we'll have to come up with a snappy title, but the second edition of my cloud native journey, journey, uh, and, and I was revisiting the part that goes over exactly this point, like dealing with auditors and revisiting it.

314
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And I was reminded of a, uh, or I should say my to-do list reminded me, there's a passage of target going through this and they had some big old process.

315
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Uh, and this is excerpted in the, uh, the DevOps handbook, but they had a huge amount of process that was slowing down them being able to do something.

316
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And so finally someone was like, Hey, we should not do that.

317
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And so sure enough, they, they would, it was basically a change, uh, what do you call a cab, a change advisory board or whatever.

318
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It was basically like a big sort of cab thing.

319
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And someone finally started investigating and asking why they were doing this stuff.

320
00:25:06,060 --> 00:25:08,140
And it turns out like no one really knew.

321
00:25:08,220 --> 00:25:11,680
It was just sort of like the, uh, the theater they had constructed over time.

322
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So it's always worthwhile going in.

323
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:23,180
And if something's really slow and painful, asking why you have to do all this governance stuff end to end and making sure that you, uh, only do what's necessary.

324
00:25:23,980 --> 00:25:29,260
Yeah, I picked up, uh, on your recommendation of your, your favorite DevOps books on the new stack.

325
00:25:29,300 --> 00:25:30,060
Was it last week?

326
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:34,880
I picked up the, uh, started in scaling DevOps of the enterprise book and started reading through that.

327
00:25:34,940 --> 00:25:36,840
And it echoes a lot of what you were just talking about.

328
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,200
There is, you know, even where I'm at it's look doing some value stream.

329
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:47,680
And actually, if you document the deployment, that's often going to bring a lot of things to light that maybe people just don't realize of how atrocious it is.

330
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:55,860
I just read the one anecdote where they, one company wanted to see what it would take to get a hello world to production on a new tech and 200, 250 days later, they gave up.

331
00:25:56,020 --> 00:26:06,060
And it was, I think to your point, oftentimes it's just about sometimes just documenting what you've been doing and realizing how woefully inefficient it is and how terrible it is.

332
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And so people just don't know it's tribal knowledge or just accepted pain.

333
00:26:09,180 --> 00:26:17,240
And so often this stuff starts by just bringing to light what you're doing today and then all of you embarrassingly realizing how that's not helping your business anymore.

334
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:17,800
Yeah.

335
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:25,140
It was fun to write a review of that book because I think, I think I, uh, I was reading that book on a plane and I was just like, holy crap, this book is awesome.

336
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:30,400
It was, I mean, I guess it's a testament to like how, how deep and nerdy I am on this stuff nowadays.

337
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:31,980
But like, man, that book is great.

338
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,320
That, that, that, that guy writes really well.

339
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:50,100
And his, uh, I mean, like you're saying his general thing, uh, is basically you should really put continuous integration in place and use that as like your, your main to use this word in the wrong way, your main control point on improving your process.

340
00:26:50,100 --> 00:26:58,860
And as long as you have an extreme amount of discipline around continuous integration, all the other good stuff that, that you want to do, uh, will be possible.

341
00:26:58,860 --> 00:27:02,720
It's sort of like this never worked for me, but apparently it works for other people.

342
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,680
It's sort of like calorie counting when you're dieting, right?

343
00:27:05,700 --> 00:27:15,140
It's like nothing about the calorie camp counting, like, like causes you to lose weight, but because you're going through that act, like it makes you pay attention to what you're doing.

344
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:22,300
It's a nice constraint to add to your overall system to, uh, encourage healthy behavior, just like continuous integrations or pipeline.

345
00:27:22,380 --> 00:27:22,960
What does he call them?

346
00:27:23,020 --> 00:27:25,220
Sort of build pipelines or something, but yeah.

347
00:27:25,220 --> 00:27:26,220
The deployment pipeline.

348
00:27:26,340 --> 00:27:26,520
Yeah.

349
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:31,960
I mean, that's, I think we hear that from, from customers over and over to their biggest pain point is getting stuff to production.

350
00:27:32,120 --> 00:27:38,940
And so as you start to weave back what that means, it's about, you know, where, where are your steps for, where do you have constraints?

351
00:27:38,940 --> 00:27:42,520
Where do you have bottlenecks and make sure you're not optimizing in the wrong places.

352
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,600
Like that's awesome that your desktop tech is awesome for your devs.

353
00:27:45,660 --> 00:27:50,440
If they still swayed for six months to go through a security audit and push to prod, that was meaningless investment.

354
00:27:50,900 --> 00:27:53,020
So I think it's value stream mapping.

355
00:27:53,020 --> 00:27:56,520
It's putting this stuff up that doesn't sound super fun, but it actually can be.

356
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:57,880
Yeah.

357
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,240
So, so there, there's, there's two other things related to this.

358
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:06,100
I mean, this is the, uh, as I was saying last time, this is the kind of stuff that I spend, uh, most of my time working on around here.

359
00:28:06,100 --> 00:28:08,480
So I have, I have this, this column over at the register.

360
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:16,180
And, uh, I think the last one I wrote, I, I, I poll tested this in Twitter, this phrase, and everyone told me it was awful.

361
00:28:16,180 --> 00:28:25,700
So I decided to use it anyways, because I, I, I figure, you know, that's the way elections work nowadays, but I, it's basically about large aisle or agile in the large.

362
00:28:25,700 --> 00:28:39,660
And, uh, as, as a little bit of context, I, I was talking with, uh, with some of my, my, uh, my culty agile friends, and they were telling me there was this sort of argument rebrewing, uh, about, about, uh, about doing agile in the large.

363
00:28:39,660 --> 00:28:47,560
And there's basically, and we come across this frequently and I, and I have to admit, even after working on this little piece, I'm still not that much of an expert on it.

364
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:52,840
I need to go read up on this stuff more and, uh, and, uh, talk to some people who are actually doing it.

365
00:28:52,900 --> 00:28:55,840
But, you know, there's processes like, like safe.

366
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:57,800
And I think there's even one called less.

367
00:28:57,980 --> 00:29:01,760
And my favorite one is dad, which is the disciplined agile development.

368
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:03,380
I've read about two thirds of that book.

369
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,300
Uh, and, and there's other ones.

370
00:29:05,300 --> 00:29:09,540
I think, I think, uh, I'm mixing some, you know, there, there's also, you might call them.

371
00:29:09,660 --> 00:29:15,320
Like Uber conceptual frameworks, like bimodal it and, uh, and, and things like that.

372
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:27,840
But, you know, it's, it's like this eternal question, or I should say this undying question that we have, which I guess is just a snarky way of saying eternal, but it's like this undying question we have of like, can you scale, scale agile?

373
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:51,180
And, you know, I think, uh, that's, that's a lot of what we spend our, just spent time talking about, but the, the worry that people tend to have, and it'd be interesting to hear from people who listen to this, like what they've encountered is that if you put too much structure around agile, uh, when you scale it, what you end up is basically replicating the same bureaucracy to use that word again, that you had previously.

374
00:29:51,180 --> 00:30:07,020
And, and, and there, there's some good critiques of, of agile in the large from, from various people that I linked to in that piece that essentially it's a little bit more than all, but say, cause they sort of half say that essentially these big things are basically just giving your management structure.

375
00:30:07,020 --> 00:30:20,960
There's some work to do when, when, when maybe you should look at removing, like we're talking about removing governance and structure, but you know, I, I, I haven't come across like conclusive, conclusive things that show how to scale agile well.

376
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:28,460
And I don't know if that's because it's dependent on, on each organization that you're operating in, or if it's just too new of a concept.

377
00:30:28,460 --> 00:30:35,200
So we haven't tested it out, but it is, uh, it's a, it's an ongoing tricky, wicked problem area to, to stare at.

378
00:30:37,020 --> 00:30:39,620
It is, you know, and there's conferences around it.

379
00:30:39,660 --> 00:30:43,740
Heck, I'm, I'm a program chair for the agile Alliance tech conference next year.

380
00:30:43,780 --> 00:30:50,320
And we're, we're grabbing speakers now to, to try to continue to talk about this sort of topics of scaling DevOps and agile and these other things.

381
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,180
Cause everyone wants to know what that looks like.

382
00:30:52,180 --> 00:30:59,400
That arguably one of the problems is that everybody comes back from tech conferences today with these techniques that work for these eight person startups.

383
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,800
And then they try to implement that at their giant enterprise and get frustrated.

384
00:31:03,460 --> 00:31:10,340
And then you do have to think about these things a little differently when they're working in your own culture, with your own teams, with your own tools.

385
00:31:10,820 --> 00:31:18,060
And not accidentally do big a agile, which is big tools and methodologies and processes and whatever, and get frustrated.

386
00:31:18,060 --> 00:31:29,520
Sometimes it's just about introducing a little a agile and say, we need to be better at collecting feedback, iterating on that, you know, delivering value, and then start to overlay some process.

387
00:31:29,940 --> 00:31:32,760
You know, there's just, I think to your point, there's no one size fits all here.

388
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:34,060
There's no single playbook.

389
00:31:34,220 --> 00:31:37,180
And that's frustrating because we just want to say, how should I do this?

390
00:31:37,940 --> 00:31:40,020
And, you know, there's things you start with.

391
00:31:40,020 --> 00:31:47,980
I think you want to talk a little bit about pair of programming today is, is one way to get going with this, but there simply isn't the do this.

392
00:31:47,980 --> 00:31:52,000
And you'll get that as much as pivotal labs and pivotal tries to help you morph to that.

393
00:31:52,180 --> 00:31:55,220
We still take that into context, how your company runs today.

394
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:56,120
Yeah, yeah.

395
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:56,440
Yeah.

396
00:31:56,500 --> 00:32:00,500
I mean, it's like, I like the visuals of your, you go to a conference.

397
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:05,480
It's like people go to a conference and they come back and they're like, the first thing we need to do is make a pizza factory.

398
00:32:05,860 --> 00:32:10,860
Like, if we're going to have all these two pizza teams, we need to put in place a process in which to manufacture pizzas.

399
00:32:11,260 --> 00:32:16,720
And it's sort of like, you know, laughably as, as the joke obviously goes like, no, no, no, no, you didn't understand.

400
00:32:17,620 --> 00:32:17,980
Right.

401
00:32:18,020 --> 00:32:21,620
Like, like your job is, your job now is not to build pizzas.

402
00:32:21,780 --> 00:32:24,080
It's for those, those teams to actually do things.

403
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:32,800
And yeah, I mean, I mean, going back to like some of the, uh, the anecdotes I was talking about earlier, like, um, in several of those conversations, especially where there's a lot of governance.

404
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:46,700
I was, I was thinking when I was talking with these various people that the part of the issue, uh, is that the customer doesn't really understand, doesn't have expectations around software.

405
00:32:46,940 --> 00:32:52,880
And so somehow, uh, they haven't kind of been told how to manage software or what to expect from it.

406
00:32:53,020 --> 00:33:12,540
And so when someone comes up and tells them they're going to be like CMM level four or three and a half or whatever, or they're going to do some ISO thing, or they're going to be safe or less or, or, you know, find their agile daddy or something like, I mean, it's sort of like when, uh, we, you know, we let our front, our front lawn die and we've got these yard people over repairing it.

407
00:33:12,620 --> 00:33:13,740
And I don't know what they're doing.

408
00:33:14,020 --> 00:33:15,220
I don't understand how to fix that.

409
00:33:15,220 --> 00:33:22,120
Like, I have some vague notion that we should put some sod up there and water it, but like, ultimately I have no idea.

410
00:33:22,500 --> 00:33:26,560
So like they could just tell me whatever process and I just, I don't know.

411
00:33:26,660 --> 00:33:32,900
And I think a lot of the people that are sort of driving budgeting for software, they are in a similar position.

412
00:33:33,100 --> 00:33:34,860
And so that's, that's, you know, part of the thing.

413
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:43,400
I think if you want to do agile in the large is you have to go outside of the IT department and really rejigger the expectations that people have about how it can be operating.

414
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,160
Cause until you do that, they're just going to be like, well, where's my Gantt charts?

415
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:48,520
Right.

416
00:33:48,660 --> 00:33:51,320
Cause that's sort of how they, how they expect things to operate.

417
00:33:51,980 --> 00:33:57,500
Well, I think that's a lot of people forget is, you know, whether it's DevOps, whether it's agile, like these things touch the whole company.

418
00:33:57,500 --> 00:34:04,040
If you're not rethinking finance and HR and all these other aspects, it's going to be really frustrating really quickly.

419
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:21,880
So then, yeah, as, as, as you alluded to the other thing I wanted to go over, uh, is, is I think, I think previous to this, I wrote, I wrote up a piece on pair programming, which is, uh, you know, uh, I always like to say this is one of the few pieces where I think they didn't rewrite my headline and strap, which usually happens.

420
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:27,900
And I usually have to be a little, but I think they actually used my, my original ones here, which, which was nice.

421
00:34:27,900 --> 00:34:36,540
My only other achievement there, there's one of the columns that I wrote where I made a, uh, an allusion to, to the French's reaction to baguettes from Piggly Wiggly.

422
00:34:36,540 --> 00:34:42,740
And I think for 2016, that was my crowning rhetorical achievement to, uh, to have that published somewhere.

423
00:34:44,020 --> 00:34:58,080
If you, if you remember old Piggly Wiggly anyways, uh, so yeah, I, I, I wanted to write up a piece on pair programming and, um, I was reminded of this because I, uh, I think it was, it was, it was in November, which is still this month.

424
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:08,720
But over the last month, I, I went to two, um, two of our cloud native roadshows that we did in middle America, uh, over in Kansas city, which it turns out, did you know, Kansas city is actually in Missouri?

425
00:35:09,300 --> 00:35:09,660
Who knew?

426
00:35:10,220 --> 00:35:10,980
Yeah, it's very confusing.

427
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:11,260
Yeah.

428
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:12,880
I don't, someone, something happened.

429
00:35:12,940 --> 00:35:20,560
I don't know if the Mississippi like moved or something, but like it's, someone should have fixed that over at the Rand McNally back in the 1800s.

430
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:27,760
Uh, so you got, yeah, I was up in Kansas city and then Omaha, uh, where, where, uh, you know, that was nice.

431
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:42,620
Anyways, uh, at both areas, we had Garmin, who's a pivotal customer there doing like a, an executive session, which was scheduled to be like a 40, 60 minute talk, but it kind of extended into a 90 minute, uh, conversation, uh, that we had with the room.

432
00:35:42,620 --> 00:35:54,980
And one of the things that, I mean, just to do the pie chart in my head, I think the largest share of discussion time was spent talking about pair programming and basically just like, what?

433
00:35:57,020 --> 00:36:11,640
And, and so like, it is like, I think, I think if you, I mean, if you're an external facing role at pivotal, you definitely know that pair programming is one of the weirder things that we espouse, but I think internally you just kind of take it for granted.

434
00:36:12,180 --> 00:36:14,520
And so it is like, so I wanted to write up a piece.

435
00:36:14,820 --> 00:36:20,140
I'm kind of retconning the history here, but this topic comes up a lot and I wanted to finally gather all the research on it.

436
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:27,300
And, and, and it is like, there's not a whole lot of recent research on pair programming, but when you do look at the research, first of all, some of it's a little funny.

437
00:36:27,300 --> 00:36:37,520
Cause it's sort of like whatever students enrolled in my CS class, like I had them do some exercises, which I guess is the type of research, but I don't know if it's like incredibly applicable.

438
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:43,580
But in general, if you look at all the research, like basically pair programming works, right?

439
00:36:43,620 --> 00:36:52,420
Like, like it works from a, uh, from, from all the efficiency and quality standpoints from an efficiency of money, right?

440
00:36:52,440 --> 00:37:02,800
Like, uh, you, for the money that you spend and the time spent, which is just a form of money in this conversation, it's more efficient to have pairs of people, uh, be working on things.

441
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:10,840
And then also from a quality standpoint, quality consistently is better than if you have, what's the opposite of a pair, a, a unipair.

442
00:37:11,060 --> 00:37:12,900
If you just have a solo person.

443
00:37:12,900 --> 00:37:26,220
So it is like, and you also like look in surveys and it's, it's one of these things that like is, it's one of the least wide, uh, least followed things out there consistently by surveys.

444
00:37:26,220 --> 00:37:42,180
It varies anywhere from like 10 to 15%, but it seems to be like, like thinking, especially in the context of, of, of what I've been rambling on a lot about here, like of all the things you can do to improve a large organization or any organization,

445
00:37:42,180 --> 00:37:50,180
the way they do software pairing is probably the easiest process thing to achieve that will scale the most, right?

446
00:37:50,260 --> 00:38:04,300
So if there was a mixture of sort of like difficulty of doing it and ability to scale it, something like pairing, because it's basically at the team level, seems like one of the things you would get other than buying Pivotal Cloud Foundry and using it as a centralized place to host all of your software.

447
00:38:04,460 --> 00:38:09,640
So it seems like pair programming is like the thing that's the easiest to apply with the biggest buck.

448
00:38:10,460 --> 00:38:16,620
And really, uh, it seems like there's only the main thing, there's two main things to get over.

449
00:38:16,620 --> 00:38:21,900
And that is, uh, managers thinking that you're basically having productivity, right?

450
00:38:22,060 --> 00:38:37,700
And that one's pretty easy to get over because once you pair people up, there's good arguments to be made about, uh, by having two eyes on stuff, you raise the quality and there's the old chestnut about the earlier you find bugs, the cheaper they are to fix, which maybe that's in that leprechauns of coding is true or false.

451
00:38:37,700 --> 00:38:44,160
So I forget, but then, but then there's also like, there's all of these proof points from normal mainstream companies that it actually is more effective.

452
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:48,820
Many, many who, uh, have spoken at our conferences that you can see a reference to in that piece and other things.

453
00:38:49,000 --> 00:39:02,000
But then too, I think what I've found in investigating this over the past couple of months is that the biggest barrier are actually the senior developers that you have who think that their value is being threatened, right?

454
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:10,180
So a senior developer might take it as demeaning that they would pair up with a junior person and, or somehow it's like a threat to their job.

455
00:39:10,180 --> 00:39:16,500
And many of the reasons that you speak about pair programming is valuable, like diffusing knowledge, not having bottlenecks of individuals.

456
00:39:16,500 --> 00:39:19,140
This is the, the low bus number, if you will.

457
00:39:19,580 --> 00:39:25,280
Uh, they are kind of threatening to the value that a senior person has the sort of monopoly over knowledge.

458
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:51,060
Um, so that's, that's, that's an issue to get over, but it's the Garmin people who came up with the most interesting, um, anti old programmer barricade, I guess, which was that in most cases in large organizations, senior developers spend most of their time, like in meetings and answering questions because they are the silo of knowledge that people have to come to and extract from.

459
00:39:51,460 --> 00:39:54,980
And they don't really get to spend that much time programming anymore.

460
00:39:54,980 --> 00:40:02,580
And if they're still a developer and they haven't, uh, uh, switched over to the management track, they probably would like to develop code.

461
00:40:02,580 --> 00:40:16,780
And when you pair them up with other people, they actually get to spend most, if not all of their time coding instead of just answering incessant emails, which seems like a nice motivation to have to, uh, get, get your senior people to, to want to actually, uh, do pair programming.

462
00:40:16,780 --> 00:40:22,420
If, and I don't think most people, senior people like this, I think there's just a few holdouts that, uh, that don't like it.

463
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:23,600
No, it's a good point.

464
00:40:23,940 --> 00:40:26,780
I mean, that's, uh, you know, I've done it before.

465
00:40:26,780 --> 00:40:29,980
I've, I've worked in teams recently that did it at scale.

466
00:40:29,980 --> 00:40:33,140
And now I sit in an office where people pair all day as well.

467
00:40:33,140 --> 00:40:35,680
And like you said, there, there's hurdles to get past.

468
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,200
And that initial sense of my gosh, I have to buy higher twice to developers.

469
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:40,280
Now they get the same thing.

470
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:41,600
Like, no, that's not really the case.

471
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,260
And some data helps prove that.

472
00:40:43,420 --> 00:40:45,160
But as you say, there, there are some challenges.

473
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:54,980
Look, I mean, I watch where teams will struggle because their, their pair is late for work or they're sick and it throws kind of things off or, Hey, you do have personality clashes and it's not even just junior or senior.

474
00:40:54,980 --> 00:41:04,500
It's, it's one more introvert versus extrovert or somebody who can't just sit and watch another person type and they have to jump right in and different coding styles, tabs versus spaces.

475
00:41:04,500 --> 00:41:06,240
Like you could have people punching each other.

476
00:41:06,240 --> 00:41:12,440
So, you know, there's going to be things that are challenging and the staff you have may not just instantly go to pairing.

477
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:21,000
And that might be a hard conversation to say, look, maybe they switched to other teams and pairing has to be something we specifically do with people who are game for this.

478
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:24,720
Because if you're fighting it the whole time, you're probably not going to get the benefits from it.

479
00:41:24,780 --> 00:41:26,400
So, you know, maybe you ease into it.

480
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:31,840
Maybe it is a few hours a day with the team or you start all your new hires with pairing so that they can learn quickly.

481
00:41:32,140 --> 00:41:37,920
Or you use it for testing and debugging and say, look, whenever there's testing, you pair with a tester or you pair with another dev.

482
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:46,080
And that's how you do some of your unit tests or whatever it might be to kind of get you started with that, because it seems like people are very visceral around pair programming.

483
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:49,100
Either you hate it or you at least tolerate it slash love it.

484
00:41:49,240 --> 00:41:52,360
Like there's very much in the middle, like meh pair programming.

485
00:41:52,580 --> 00:42:03,620
I think for the most part, you love it or hate it because either it's forcing you to be social and you'd rather just work by yourself or you love it because it helps you get more knowledge, helps you solve problems faster.

486
00:42:03,720 --> 00:42:16,260
And you like the social aspect, but it's, yeah, it's definitely something where, you know, I've also seen people recommending that, hey, look, pairing doesn't just mean you literally sit at the same desk and you both type together.

487
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:24,200
Pairing can also mean, hey, you solve problems together by going to a whiteboard or walking around or, you know, in Pivotal playing ping pong together for 10 minutes.

488
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:31,380
Like it's also about team building and kind of getting outside of your space, not literally just staring at the same monitor for nine hours a day.

489
00:42:31,460 --> 00:42:33,260
Yeah, you know, ping pong.

490
00:42:33,540 --> 00:42:38,600
You know, if someone was pairing with me, it would be like, hey, let's go make snarky comments and Twitter together for 10 minutes.

491
00:42:38,900 --> 00:42:40,940
I think that's how we would blow off steam and bond.

492
00:42:41,420 --> 00:42:43,580
I think he would need to pair next week in Vegas.

493
00:42:43,740 --> 00:42:46,180
Yes, over some lobster egg benedict.

494
00:42:46,740 --> 00:42:47,580
That has to happen.

495
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:57,300
You know, you're reminding me of another thing that came up in the Omaha discussion we were having about offshoring, not just outsourcing, but offshoring.

496
00:42:57,300 --> 00:43:05,340
And there was one of the people there had some like Eastern European developers and they were talking about how you do pair programming with that.

497
00:43:05,340 --> 00:43:10,780
And this is a mixture of like what they actually did in theoretic and theoretical stuff.

498
00:43:10,820 --> 00:43:14,780
And there was I think there was basically like two hours of work time that they would have.

499
00:43:14,780 --> 00:43:26,180
And the discussion we were having is that and this is my suggestion is that part of the problem I've noticed over the years that companies have with offshoring is that they don't trust them.

500
00:43:26,340 --> 00:43:26,780
Right.

501
00:43:26,860 --> 00:43:32,760
They're just that and this this has to do with all sorts of like good and valid and it's just like people.

502
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:33,200
Right.

503
00:43:33,220 --> 00:43:35,000
Like their whole reason.

504
00:43:35,900 --> 00:43:37,600
Well, see, I'm even kind of doing it here.

505
00:43:37,660 --> 00:43:41,280
But one of the reasons companies will cite for doing offshoring, what do they what do they call it?

506
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:42,420
They don't call it cheap.

507
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:54,100
There's some some magical phrase they use for like it's sort of like economic imperative butter rubbing like like there's some kind of like low cost or something like that.

508
00:43:54,100 --> 00:43:57,300
But essentially, because it's cheaper, right?

509
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:58,960
Like that's that's what motivates.

510
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:05,140
Now, it could very well be the case, especially with open source driven products, that it's exactly the opposite of it.

511
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:09,840
It's just that like, as you know, we've had Marcin who lives in Poland on this podcast several times.

512
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:11,500
It's like, well, that's where the talent is.

513
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,000
So we we offshore them, as it were.

514
00:44:14,620 --> 00:44:15,800
So there's many reasons.

515
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:23,020
But with large organizations, someone was saying, you know, we have this team and like one, they're kind of grumpy because they don't get treated very well.

516
00:44:23,020 --> 00:44:27,180
And then to like it's kind of a net loss because it's expensive.

517
00:44:27,180 --> 00:44:29,680
Like we have to check their stuff and review it.

518
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:39,320
And there was an interesting discussion about, well, maybe what you should do is remotely pair with them or send people various, you know, get them on planes to pair for like a couple of weeks.

519
00:44:39,620 --> 00:44:42,700
And then you start diffusing knowledge across the two teams.

520
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,620
And more importantly, you start trusting that these teams know what they're doing.

521
00:44:46,180 --> 00:44:52,020
And then once you get to the point that on whatever shore you're on, you can basically review each other's code and you trust that.

522
00:44:52,180 --> 00:45:03,160
Then you remove a lot of this this drag that you have with the the follow the sun approach, which, again, that was a mixture of like stuff people have been doing and theoretical things and stuff like that.

523
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:09,720
But it seems like another good way that doing that the idea of pairing could could address some some large organization problems.

524
00:45:10,180 --> 00:45:11,140
Yeah, great point.

525
00:45:11,500 --> 00:45:12,920
So and the trust that trust is.

526
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:14,780
Yeah, trust is such the big thing.

527
00:45:14,820 --> 00:45:17,900
And that's usually the first part you have to get past is I'm trusting my pair.

528
00:45:18,020 --> 00:45:19,380
I'm trusting the team as a manager.

529
00:45:19,380 --> 00:45:24,580
And then I'm trusting as an exec that team manager is being productive with the people they have.

530
00:45:24,700 --> 00:45:30,980
So, you know, that's the first hurdle to get by, which is probably means you can't wholesale on a Monday saying, hey, we're going to pair on everything.

531
00:45:31,140 --> 00:45:35,860
There probably is a at least a bit of a warm up period and prove that it works great.

532
00:45:35,940 --> 00:45:37,980
And, you know, you might even rotate pairs.

533
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,000
You might rotate teams to make sure that people see the excitement.

534
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:49,100
But there's a reason why Pivotal goes into every engagement and kind of enforces pairing or same with our dojos is, you know, we want the people to pick up skills.

535
00:45:49,220 --> 00:45:54,160
We want them to build trust even with their own team and even with us that we're not just consultants coming in.

536
00:45:54,220 --> 00:45:57,380
We're coming in as collaborators and partners on something.

537
00:45:57,520 --> 00:45:59,880
So it's a total mind shift and it's weird.

538
00:46:00,220 --> 00:46:09,380
And I've even seen teams do mobbing where you have 10 people in a room all doing it together to solve a problem and build something, which seems kind of woefully or horribly inefficient.

539
00:46:09,380 --> 00:46:10,740
So you can't do that all the time.

540
00:46:10,900 --> 00:46:14,240
But even then, it's about using the collective brain to solve hard problems.

541
00:46:14,460 --> 00:46:20,000
I think that's a good advancement versus just relying on the lone hero developer who has to go in and solve all the problems.

542
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:20,820
Yeah, yeah.

543
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:21,140
Yeah.

544
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:23,860
So there's three things I was just thinking of.

545
00:46:23,860 --> 00:46:25,560
Before we close out.

546
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:29,280
And that is, I'll see if I can remember.

547
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:34,280
But, you know, we talk a lot about this internally and it'll be interesting to see over the next year.

548
00:46:34,620 --> 00:46:43,400
Like, I think there's another pairing thing that in our cloud native community we need to figure out, which is sort of like enterprise architect pairing.

549
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,920
And I don't really know what that looks like, but there's a lot of discussion that we have.

550
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:54,440
And we've got a whole, like, group of people who help out, like, from the tops down of doing transformation and things like that.

551
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:59,860
But I've been in a lot of discussions since I've been at Pivotal with enterprise architects.

552
00:46:59,860 --> 00:47:03,800
And it's not so much that they're having some sort of existential crisis.

553
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,360
It's that they're trying to, well, that happens a lot.

554
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:10,640
But they're trying to figure out, like, what is the role of enterprise architecture?

555
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:15,300
And what is it that this skill set can do to help everyone out?

556
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:18,820
And, yeah, I don't know if anyone actually knows.

557
00:47:18,940 --> 00:47:27,800
But I think it's through, like, through pairing with people who have worked on this stuff in the past and kind of documenting what ends up happening that we can accelerate what that role does.

558
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:43,280
Because I feel like going back to the large aisle stuff, one of the things that the large agile disciplines often bring up and that the, I guess you could call them, I think I jokingly referred them as the agile poets, the sort of agile in the small spaces.

559
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:50,180
They never really deal that convincingly with what you do with, like, cross dependencies and things like that.

560
00:47:50,180 --> 00:47:56,260
Like, Ron Jeffries has this great piece where he's, like, it's almost like the, is Lao Tzu the Tao guy?

561
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,580
It's almost like, how do you deal with cross dependencies?

562
00:47:58,940 --> 00:47:59,900
You don't have them.

563
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:00,520
Huzzah!

564
00:48:00,900 --> 00:48:01,260
Right?

565
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:07,600
Like, it's just, and so, like, which is, you know, delightful, but doesn't seem realistic.

566
00:48:08,380 --> 00:48:12,480
So that would be an interesting thing to, like, figure out pairing on.

567
00:48:12,660 --> 00:48:14,000
And I've forgotten the second thing.

568
00:48:14,380 --> 00:48:21,280
But it reminded me, so, like, since you're around it all the time, what are the, like, I guess pun intended, but what are, like, the smells of pairing?

569
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:24,320
Like, what does it look like, like, physically when you're moving around?

570
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:26,840
Like, like, how would you describe it?

571
00:48:27,820 --> 00:48:28,980
Yeah, I mean, it looks very noisy.

572
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:34,520
So one thing I have to always, you know, get a room when we do the podcast, because it's a noisy place, right?

573
00:48:34,580 --> 00:48:35,180
Everyone's pairing.

574
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:35,880
Everyone's talking.

575
00:48:36,140 --> 00:48:37,560
You know, people are working on problems.

576
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:42,300
And what's really interesting is when we do interviews, and I'll watch someone come in, because we do interviews through pairing.

577
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:46,460
And so you're going to see, how does the person coach them through?

578
00:48:46,540 --> 00:48:51,860
I actually asked at breakfast this morning at the office any tips people had for some of the things for getting started.

579
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:58,200
And, you know, one of the fellows said, look, I have to sit on my hands sometimes, because my inclination is to just jump in and try to solve everything.

580
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:05,040
So I physically sit on my hands, in some cases, so that I don't just jump to the keyboard and kind of dominate my pair.

581
00:49:05,660 --> 00:49:09,660
And so sometimes it looks like just a lot of conversation and typing and problem solving.

582
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:15,760
And we don't have touchscreens, because we all use Macs, but all the monitors seem to be smudged, because everyone's touching their monitors to solve problems.

583
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:19,840
You know, so it just looks like a very interactive, bustling place.

584
00:49:19,940 --> 00:49:22,840
Now, for some devs, that is the complete opposite of how they like to work.

585
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:26,800
They like to be in a dark room and coding with headphones on, and nobody bugs them.

586
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:35,200
So this sort of very lively, noisy, problem-solving environment can be, again, very jarring to people who don't like that work style.

587
00:49:35,580 --> 00:49:39,600
But when you're in it, there's also a really good energy, and people don't feel like they get stuck very long.

588
00:49:40,300 --> 00:49:49,860
Yeah, I think for myself and many people, pair programming is like a NIMBY issue, which is like, that all sounds great, as long as it's not me.

589
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:51,280
Right.

590
00:49:51,900 --> 00:50:00,040
But, yeah, I remember early on, here in the marketing groups, I've messed around with, people would try to, like, they would say, pair on things.

591
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:06,000
And it's just like, maybe it's just because I'm a NIMBY on it, but that just didn't work for me.

592
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:08,640
Like, I can't, like, co-write a blog post with someone.

593
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:23,260
But it's, I don't know if it's just, like, I'm resistant or whatever, or maybe that work of the, because really, like, programming is pretty, kind of similar to, like, writing a blog post or, like, putting together a PowerPoint.

594
00:50:23,620 --> 00:50:28,020
But there's something about it that, like, I wasn't having that.

595
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:29,200
That was a bunch of nonsense.

596
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:30,640
Crazy talk.

597
00:50:31,340 --> 00:50:36,880
Well, with that, maybe later today, the second thing I was going to bring up will pop into my head.

598
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:38,640
And I'll quickly forget it.

599
00:50:38,820 --> 00:50:43,520
When my daughter asked for more milk, and I have to tell her yet again, we do not have milk.

600
00:50:43,720 --> 00:50:44,480
We're out of milk.

601
00:50:44,940 --> 00:50:46,020
But we'll see what happens.

602
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:49,020
But on that note, this has been Pivotal Conversations.

603
00:50:49,360 --> 00:51:07,240
As always, if you want to be in the vanguard of people who listen to this, the thin edge of the wedge, the sort of, like, the slowly coming in tide as the tidal wave comes in, you can go to our not-so-secret backend at soundcloud.com slash pivotalconversations.

604
00:51:07,500 --> 00:51:09,120
And there's an RSS feed there.

605
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:10,780
You should just subscribe to it.

606
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:14,080
And then you don't even, after that point, even if you don't want to listen to it, it's fine.

607
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:16,060
Just subscribe, because this is the only thing we track.

608
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:18,680
But hopefully you actually do listen to it.

609
00:51:18,740 --> 00:51:22,580
And if you like it, it would be great if you're in Overcast, as many of our listeners are.

610
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:26,420
If you click the recommend thing, you just kind of look at the show notes and scroll up, and there's a little star.

611
00:51:26,700 --> 00:51:28,900
I have no idea what that does, but it sounds great.

612
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:33,860
Even better would be if you went into the iTunes store and added a rating or wrote a review.

613
00:51:34,300 --> 00:51:38,680
Maybe you could tell us what it smells like to pair with someone, and that would be a nice review to see.

614
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:41,980
I haven't actually checked this episode to see if it was written in a review.

615
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:43,060
So if they had, thank you.

616
00:51:43,100 --> 00:51:45,080
And if they haven't, now you've got something to do.

617
00:51:46,020 --> 00:51:50,140
It also would be nice if you just tell people that you like this podcast or tweet it.

618
00:51:50,580 --> 00:51:52,200
Essentially, help us market it.

619
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:56,740
Barring all of that, you could just tell us that you listened to it, and that will save us enough.

620
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:02,300
It'll keep us nimble and thin in our little dark cave of podcasting, and let the spirit stay alive.

621
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,560
So with that, thanks for listening, and we'll see everyone next time.

622
00:52:05,780 --> 00:52:06,280
Bye-bye.