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So, we got a couple of crazy conventions going on.

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I'm looking forward to the one that's rolling out this week.

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But I was thinking, or rather you were, you were thinking, like, it'd be nice to, like, think of some nice things that are going on in these apparently apocalyptic times that we have as being portrayed.

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And, you know, there's a couple of, like, news items, I think, that we'll go over that are related to it.

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But I think there's a, and I was actually visiting with someone last week, just a regular, I don't know, Fortune 500 type company.

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And I see this over and over again that there's, I think maybe there's, like, a five or ten year lag on, like, exciting new technology sort of, like, getting sucked up by normal companies that affect us all that we all use.

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And they're all, like, looking to rewrite their software and make better software.

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So, that's, like, a very small thing to be cheery about.

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But I'm looking forward to all the software we deal with from companies and governments being much improved and sort of modernized, if you will.

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At least having, like, a mobile interface that's sane.

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Like, I was just, I'm going on a flight later today.

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And, you know, one of the things I take for granted now, I fly in American Airlines, is, like, you can just basically, like, check in on your phone and, like, get a little mobile thing that integrates with the wallet on your iPhone.

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And it all, like, it all works.

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It's kind of crazy.

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And it even, like, I've noticed they've added something that tells you, like, the time you should leave to go to the airport.

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So, there's, like, clearly someone's paying attention to, like, what would make Coté's lives better?

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Like, that's, which is nice.

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It's, things are panning out.

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On a whiteboard somewhere.

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Yeah, I mean, we can, you know, feel like the end times are near.

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But at the same time, it's easy to take a step back.

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And, like you said, even just travel, ignore the TSA part, you know, from a technology perspective.

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That's right.

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That, you know, when I actually have to get a printed ticket, you know, I just, it's shocking that now I can just have a little barcode.

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And I can change my seats.

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And those little luxuries are nicer.

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Even just, you know, I was thinking about this morning.

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I mean, you and I are sitting here talking on a podcast separated by 1,500 lonely miles, at least.

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And that, you know, a drop of a hat, you and I can talk to anybody around the world with virtually no lag and almost no cost.

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Like, that is insane if you go back even 15, 20 years.

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So, a lot of crazy, awesome stuff in tech that's empowering.

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And the world itself is actually a pretty awesome place, despite occasional blips of madness.

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Yeah, there's a largesse of productivity available if you can snatch it up and figure out what to do with it, which is it.

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Like, I was in Toronto last week.

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And it's easy to forget that, like, you've got to go over the border.

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And in the Toronto airport, it's really weird.

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Like, they have, well, I shouldn't say, it's not weird, bad.

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It's just out of the ordinary.

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They have American Border Patrol in the Toronto airport.

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So, they have this whole other section of the airport that if you're flying to America, I was going to say back, but maybe it's to America.

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Then, like, you go through Border Patrol.

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And then when you get, you know, like, where I was going to Dallas, like, there's no, you don't have to go through that big glass hallway to the Border Patrol people.

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And, you know, as, you know, I have a border entry thing.

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So, you just go up to this kiosk and it, like, scans your passport and then your fingers and takes a picture of you, which is always annoying because I always forget to look up because I always want the best picture possible.

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And then you just pass by the, you know, the fully, like, crew cut, tattooed out guy who looks like he just rolled out of the army and he just waves you on and takes your little ticket.

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And then also, another thing I noticed, the Canadian Border Patrol, the most stylish Border Patrol you will ever see.

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They all have, like, those Macklemore haircuts, you know, where you, like, shave the sides and you've got, like, the styled thing on top.

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They are some stylin' Border Patrol folks.

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That is a pretty bold claim, Coté, to make.

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And I suspect that we're going to have some feedback and I would appreciate on the Twitters to, if you think that is the most stylish.

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I've always been impressed with Europeans who make me feel worse about myself, who all seem to actually be good at their jobs and look the part.

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Now, that might be, you know, like, a nice, well-put beret.

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That can always, that's a good look with a big assault rifle, like, hanging out underneath you.

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But I think, let me contextualize, of all the Border Patrol people I've seen, the Canadian ones looked like the hippest and most welcoming.

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They were just, like, they were doing a good job, like, welcoming people to Canada.

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Another fun fact about Canada is there's only, like, 32 million people in Canada, which is kind of crazy.

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Like, there's more people in California and I think Texas, where I live, has, like, about 26 million people and you've got, like, 330 or so million in all of America.

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I looked this up because I was driving from the airport with yet another exciting technology, you know, Uber, depending on your position, how exciting that is.

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But it was pretty nice just to, like, not have to wait in line and just go, it's always great.

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And now they email your receipts to concur, which is also handy.

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Anyways, he was telling me that he used to drive a truck cross-country and he drove across Canada and it's just, like, empty.

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There's just nothing there.

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Which he was saying, it's such a big, big country and not that many people.

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So you look it up and sure enough, not a lot of people in Canada, which is interesting.

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I don't know what you do with that, but they get a lot of land.

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I guess much of it is frozen, but it's a big old area up there.

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Sure is.

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We love our Canadians.

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Yeah.

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And they put gravy on waffle fries and other fries.

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I don't know what's not to like.

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A lot of good things in that sentence.

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Indeed.

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Well, going just a little bit further south than Canada, I noticed, and you noticed this also, that Amazon bought this little company, Cloud9, that has a cloud-based IDE.

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And it was making me remember, I think, at the tail end of when I was an analyst at Redmonk, there was, like, this trend of in-browser IDEs.

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And I think the Eclipse Foundation, like, was working on a project and there were a few other things.

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And who else?

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It was another company.

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I forget what they were called.

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Yeah, you had a, yeah, you've got Code Envy, you've got Cloud9, yeah, you've got an Eclipse J, this kind of, you know, open source thing that's recently come out.

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Yeah, it seemed super hot a few years ago, and now everyone, I think, has figured out their right play in that space.

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Yeah, I mean, it is, I think a little back in the past, back when I was looking at it, it seemed kind of clunky, but I can see that nowadays it would actually be just fine.

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And I like, you know, one of the things I remember when I was talking with the Code Envy people that was interesting is, it's kind of a little shade of, like, the pitch for virtual desktops or whatever.

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But there are, there's interesting things that happen when everything's on the server side, as far as managing the desktop and the total compute that you have available.

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So, I don't know, I haven't looked into that space a lot recently, but it's, as my mother would say, interesting.

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It seems like there's a lot going on.

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Have you looked at IDE-based, like, browser-based IDE things recently?

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What's your impression of it?

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I mean, it's a smart buy for Amazon, because as you can imagine, there's very, there's fewer and fewer parts of the stack that they don't own.

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So, if they can also make the development experience something they own, like, hey, run the browser here, and hey, guess what?

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Developing Lambda functions now is super crazy easy, because now it's all in our provided IDE, or what have you.

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You can imagine that they're trying to even simplify those people who don't have big heavyweight desktops,

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or the compute power to, you know, do continuous integration builds with 14 different services at the same time.

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That's actually where CodeEnvy pivoted, because instead of being a cloud-based IDE,

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they're focused more on portable desktop environments or development environments.

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So, get this containerized dev environment where you can go set off integration tests,

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and they just go spin up containers and return results and collaborate with other people.

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As you mentioned, this was kind of a clunky space for a little while,

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because it always felt like it was just an inferior version of a decent desktop IDE.

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And so, I think many of them have evolved now with more responsive UIs,

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and these other functions to do more, take advantage of server-side processing,

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still doesn't always solve the problem of, heck, how do I reference a local dependency?

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Or, how do I integrate with on-prem systems when this thing is elsewhere?

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So, there can be challenges, but, you know, for Amazon, it's probably a good buy.

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You know, virtual desktops, I think people love and hate them.

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At the same time, you still like having more than just a dumb machine.

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But you can tell there's a lot of benefit in this space,

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especially as we have more of these cloud-based dev platforms.

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They're now actually having the IDE close to it.

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It could be a cool way to quickly bang out a boot app or a Lambda function or other things

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when it's all kind of integrated, not required integrated, but comfortably integrated.

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Yeah, that is interesting.

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Like, I've noticed, I mean, it's obviously a, whatever logic fallacy is, you've got a bum sample set.

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But I've noticed in talking with my friends who are still coders,

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and definitely when I look at our platform architects and other people demoing,

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that very few, sometimes people use IntelliJ for demoing.

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Like, someone like a Josh Long uses that.

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But people use a wide variety of non-traditional IDEs,

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whether it's something like Atom from GitHub or other text editors.

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And it sort of makes you think that all that horsepower you traditionally would think you need for an IDE

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maybe isn't always needed so much, which, you know, gets to another thing.

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Like, I'm always waiting for the return of, like, waiting.

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Like, I'm sitting on my thumbs.

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But I'm always curious about if the idea of rapid application development,

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or RAD, as I like to say it, will come back.

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And to your point, right, like, if you have, like, so-called serverless programming

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and all these things where you're sort of, like, you're not a lot closer,

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but you're close to the equivalent of Excel macros versus, like, full-on application coding.

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Like, it does, it is interesting to think about, you know,

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if you just sort of right-click here to, like, program something,

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and then because the backend is cognizant of, like, all these enterprise needs,

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maybe it does do all this, like, enterprise tracking,

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so it's not, like, crazy out-of-band stuff.

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But I don't know.

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It'd be interesting if someone logs into an application,

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and I guess Salesforce is a little bit like this.

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Someone logs into an application,

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and if they have the right rights and everything,

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they can actually, like, program it.

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They can do the old,

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we can finally close the loop on the idea of, on a wiki,

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you can always just click edit and change it

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and do something at the programming, in the programming world.

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No, I think you're right.

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That's an interesting thing.

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And you touch on an interesting point,

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is that as well, cloud gets sold as,

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hey, the benefit is the elasticity

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when you have bursty, unpredictable workloads.

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Doesn't that describe most client-side development?

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Like, when I'm building apps on my machine,

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most of the time CPU is doing nothing,

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I build and compile my app,

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and everything explodes for a few seconds.

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Like, it's the definition of,

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I just need compute temporarily.

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So, you know, marrying these things in the cloud

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without sacrificing connectivity

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or some of the performance enhancements,

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or frankly, many of these IDEs are super functional.

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I use probably 4% of a decent IDE nowadays

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because I just use it to basically build stuff,

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not all the cool functions that get buried in.

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So for most people,

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maybe a lowest common denominator

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actually solves a lot of problems,

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especially when they start pairing.

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And now with many of these tools,

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they actually support code, you know,

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real-time, like, Google Docs-style code development,

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where I can have somebody looking and typing

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in the same function that I am right now.

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That's madness in one hand,

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but pretty awesome

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if I'm actually trying to pair with people

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that aren't sitting next to me.

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Yeah, yeah.

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That's interesting.

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Like, it'd be our Pivot Labs people

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are, you know, stridently into pair programming,

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and they seem to be,

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they like it in person,

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but I wonder if having some,

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I wonder what they've done

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as far as figuring out,

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like, back when there was sub-Ether edit

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and all these things

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where you've sort of got live coding on either end.

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That would be...

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Yeah, we have to be a follow-up podcast now.

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Yeah, that's right.

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Yeah, because it is like,

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I mean, another thing you notice

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is when you go talk to these large organizations

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we were fawning over,

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or fawning over the potential of earlier,

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they're basically like,

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hmm, co-located work.

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What else you got for me?

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Because that's not going to work.

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Right.

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It's, you know,

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you're always skating that edge

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between the old definition of insanity cliche

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and also the actual possibilities of doing something.

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But it seems like when it comes to pair programming,

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there's no end of potential to enable remote work

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versus having to be able to smell the other person.

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Always valuable.

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That's right.

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Put that in your surveys.

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Yeah, what else you got here?

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Well, it looks like Google is expanding

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their cloud regions here.

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So that's kind of exciting.

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You know, this reminds me,

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I should go look this up,

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but I saw a rundown recently

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that said that the,

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I think the IBM soft layer,

221
00:12:52,420 --> 00:12:53,280
like public cloud,

222
00:12:53,380 --> 00:12:55,040
has the most geographic points,

223
00:12:55,180 --> 00:12:56,300
even beyond Amazon.

224
00:12:57,260 --> 00:12:58,660
But I don't know.

225
00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:00,500
That seems like it might be accurate.

226
00:13:00,940 --> 00:13:01,040
Yeah.

227
00:13:01,180 --> 00:13:01,360
Yeah.

228
00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:02,440
I mean, they've got probably

229
00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:04,400
a lot of other hosting and services.

230
00:13:04,680 --> 00:13:05,600
I mean, I think Amazon has,

231
00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:06,100
or I'm sorry,

232
00:13:06,180 --> 00:13:08,540
Microsoft has the most cloud regions,

233
00:13:08,820 --> 00:13:10,500
cloud data centers available today

234
00:13:10,500 --> 00:13:11,360
as they've gotten,

235
00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:12,780
I mean, a few dozen now.

236
00:13:12,860 --> 00:13:14,120
They've really gone nuts with that.

237
00:13:14,180 --> 00:13:15,760
But I think surprisingly from this one,

238
00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:16,320
most people go,

239
00:13:16,740 --> 00:13:17,680
I mean, when I read the news,

240
00:13:17,740 --> 00:13:19,920
it was Google doesn't have one on the West Coast.

241
00:13:20,140 --> 00:13:21,240
Like that was the first one I saw.

242
00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:21,840
Really?

243
00:13:22,060 --> 00:13:23,320
I didn't even realize that.

244
00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:24,340
And I think it reminds you,

245
00:13:24,420 --> 00:13:24,720
first of all,

246
00:13:24,780 --> 00:13:25,180
that Google,

247
00:13:25,500 --> 00:13:27,840
the cloud is different sometimes than Google.

248
00:13:28,380 --> 00:13:30,320
Clearly, the compute engine and search service,

249
00:13:30,420 --> 00:13:32,000
which has data centers everywhere.

250
00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:35,020
So those are not always one and the same.

251
00:13:35,140 --> 00:13:36,500
But, you know, good outreach.

252
00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:38,520
I mean, you're seeing more now in India.

253
00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:40,340
I think IBM just kicked one up in Pakistan.

254
00:13:40,680 --> 00:13:42,300
So you're seeing at this point,

255
00:13:42,580 --> 00:13:44,260
you wonder there's a saturation point

256
00:13:44,260 --> 00:13:46,340
where you hit most major geographies

257
00:13:46,340 --> 00:13:48,340
where for many companies,

258
00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:50,920
you're not more than a few hundred miles away

259
00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:51,920
from a cloud data center.

260
00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:53,260
We're not there yet.

261
00:13:53,740 --> 00:13:55,780
But it's interesting to see this expansion

262
00:13:55,780 --> 00:13:57,480
and Google continue to expand.

263
00:13:57,620 --> 00:13:58,900
Obviously, Amazon keeps going.

264
00:13:59,020 --> 00:13:59,600
So does Microsoft.

265
00:13:59,820 --> 00:14:00,880
So does IBM and others.

266
00:14:01,260 --> 00:14:03,140
Is at some point you hit peak cloud

267
00:14:03,140 --> 00:14:05,480
or do you just keep going into micro clouds

268
00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:06,900
or other smaller locations

269
00:14:06,900 --> 00:14:08,780
to hit more out of the way places

270
00:14:08,780 --> 00:14:11,820
that might not require a full on cloud node,

271
00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:13,900
but people who still want low latency connection

272
00:14:13,900 --> 00:14:14,940
to compute somewhere.

273
00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:16,280
It'll be interesting to see

274
00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,300
who decides to change how they deliver cloud

275
00:14:19,300 --> 00:14:21,640
or do we just keep going mega data centers?

276
00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:22,340
Yeah.

277
00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:22,660
Yeah.

278
00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:24,760
It says here in the article,

279
00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:25,460
I'll put a link to it,

280
00:14:25,500 --> 00:14:27,540
says that they have a data center

281
00:14:27,540 --> 00:14:28,500
and they have data centers

282
00:14:28,500 --> 00:14:30,540
in South Carolina, Belgium, and Taiwan.

283
00:14:31,260 --> 00:14:33,300
So I guess if that's accurate,

284
00:14:33,420 --> 00:14:35,180
they have a lot of places to expand to.

285
00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:36,480
Yeah.

286
00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:37,460
We're not done yet.

287
00:14:37,580 --> 00:14:37,840
All right.

288
00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:38,980
Everybody's got a lot of space.

289
00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:40,000
And for us, I mean, again,

290
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:41,980
that's selfishly in the Pivotal side.

291
00:14:42,460 --> 00:14:45,100
What's nice is pick your host then.

292
00:14:45,100 --> 00:14:47,640
So, I mean, if you'd like where Google Cloud is,

293
00:14:47,740 --> 00:14:48,180
fantastic.

294
00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:49,560
Run PCF on Google Cloud.

295
00:14:49,620 --> 00:14:51,460
If you prefer Azure's locations, go there.

296
00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:53,340
It's nice to have that choice

297
00:14:53,340 --> 00:14:54,880
where you just kind of pick who's infrastructure,

298
00:14:55,060 --> 00:14:56,540
but then sometimes who's geography

299
00:14:56,540 --> 00:14:58,360
from a data sovereignty perspective

300
00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:00,620
or latency or performance perspective.

301
00:15:01,060 --> 00:15:01,280
Yeah.

302
00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:03,240
I mean, just anecdotally

303
00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,080
and stripping the names out,

304
00:15:05,220 --> 00:15:07,420
it's interesting when you go talk

305
00:15:07,420 --> 00:15:09,480
with Pivotal customers that how,

306
00:15:09,740 --> 00:15:11,120
I mean, there's definitely like

307
00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:12,600
most people either deploy

308
00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:14,920
on their own infrastructure or on Amazon.

309
00:15:15,140 --> 00:15:16,580
I would say those are like the top two,

310
00:15:16,740 --> 00:15:20,000
but it's curious to see what kind of companies.

311
00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,600
And there's a, I don't know,

312
00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:26,380
a material handful of them, so to speak,

313
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:28,740
who choose to deploy on Azure

314
00:15:28,740 --> 00:15:30,200
or as we've talked about before,

315
00:15:30,260 --> 00:15:31,360
or even Google.

316
00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,320
And it's, yeah, I mean, it's interesting.

317
00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:36,440
Like the pretty regular normal companies

318
00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:38,140
are trying to wangle that out

319
00:15:38,140 --> 00:15:39,480
and make it work on deploying

320
00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:40,340
all those different clouds.

321
00:15:40,460 --> 00:15:42,260
So there's definitely pull

322
00:15:42,260 --> 00:15:43,500
for all of that stuff.

323
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:44,580
And then also,

324
00:15:44,740 --> 00:15:45,960
I know you're recently familiar

325
00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:46,640
with a lot of this.

326
00:15:47,100 --> 00:15:49,420
We'll have to see how this weights them

327
00:15:49,420 --> 00:15:50,220
with the infrastructure

328
00:15:50,220 --> 00:15:51,900
as a service magic quadrant,

329
00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:53,600
adding in more things.

330
00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:54,280
They're going to have to

331
00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:56,560
recompute their spreadsheets.

332
00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:57,640
Absolutely.

333
00:15:58,160 --> 00:15:59,220
Those Gardner people,

334
00:15:59,340 --> 00:16:00,060
they should, those people,

335
00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,200
they should have some like

336
00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:03,340
interactive spreadsheets

337
00:16:03,340 --> 00:16:04,200
you can go fill out.

338
00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:05,020
That would be fun.

339
00:16:05,180 --> 00:16:06,600
Like, what if they had this?

340
00:16:06,900 --> 00:16:07,880
And then you can see it

341
00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:08,980
move all around.

342
00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:10,920
Of course, for subscribers only.

343
00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:12,240
They got to make their money.

344
00:16:12,620 --> 00:16:13,260
That's right.

345
00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:15,220
That's key behind the paywall.

346
00:16:15,540 --> 00:16:15,940
Indeed.

347
00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,140
So the last item that we had,

348
00:16:18,220 --> 00:16:19,880
and I was just reading up

349
00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:20,680
on this this morning,

350
00:16:21,220 --> 00:16:22,840
is it looks like someone's

351
00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:23,840
finally purchased Yahoo.

352
00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:24,440
There was,

353
00:16:24,580 --> 00:16:25,580
if I remember right,

354
00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:26,960
I collected together

355
00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:28,680
a bunch of notes on this

356
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:29,840
that we'll put a link to

357
00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:31,080
over on my blog

358
00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:32,160
at Coté.io.

359
00:16:32,540 --> 00:16:34,340
But it looks like there was,

360
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:35,680
I'm guessing there was

361
00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:36,500
kind of a bidding war

362
00:16:36,500 --> 00:16:38,260
between Verizon and AT&T

363
00:16:38,260 --> 00:16:38,680
at the end

364
00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:39,820
from all the rumors

365
00:16:39,820 --> 00:16:40,800
that I was reading.

366
00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:41,780
And then, of course,

367
00:16:41,860 --> 00:16:43,180
there was also someone,

368
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:44,700
I think it was the former CEO

369
00:16:44,700 --> 00:16:46,000
from Intuit,

370
00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:47,460
was interested in it.

371
00:16:47,500 --> 00:16:49,160
And there was some PE firm.

372
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:50,040
And, you know,

373
00:16:50,060 --> 00:16:50,560
in the past,

374
00:16:50,620 --> 00:16:51,760
I think people like Microsoft

375
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:53,020
and Google have been interested.

376
00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:54,900
But it's confirmed

377
00:16:54,900 --> 00:16:57,180
and it'll close sometime in 2017.

378
00:16:57,640 --> 00:16:59,620
But assuming all the fine print

379
00:16:59,620 --> 00:17:01,000
and government stuff goes well,

380
00:17:01,380 --> 00:17:02,280
it looks like Verizon

381
00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:03,200
is going to buy the,

382
00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:04,120
let me see,

383
00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:05,240
I'll botch this up,

384
00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:06,480
but you've got what they call

385
00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:07,860
the core assets of Yahoo,

386
00:17:08,180 --> 00:17:09,160
which are basically

387
00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:10,480
what we think of as Yahoo,

388
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:11,920
all of the internet stuff.

389
00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:12,540
And they're buying it

390
00:17:12,540 --> 00:17:14,440
for like $4.83 billion

391
00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:15,360
or something.

392
00:17:15,540 --> 00:17:15,900
Right.

393
00:17:15,980 --> 00:17:17,460
And then as far as I can figure,

394
00:17:17,620 --> 00:17:18,820
and I didn't really check

395
00:17:18,820 --> 00:17:19,700
all this stuff out

396
00:17:19,700 --> 00:17:20,360
very thoroughly

397
00:17:20,360 --> 00:17:21,560
because I was just having

398
00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:22,100
some coffee

399
00:17:22,100 --> 00:17:22,860
while I was doing this.

400
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:24,140
But it looks like,

401
00:17:24,380 --> 00:17:26,000
so Verizon also bought AOL,

402
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:27,180
which gets them a lot of,

403
00:17:27,460 --> 00:17:28,880
other stuff.

404
00:17:29,180 --> 00:17:29,880
And it looks like

405
00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:31,780
if you kind of rank by eyeballs,

406
00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,020
they're like maybe three or two

407
00:17:34,020 --> 00:17:34,940
or maybe even one.

408
00:17:35,020 --> 00:17:35,840
They're in the top three

409
00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,320
of like .com sites

410
00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:39,620
to use a really old term.

411
00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:41,100
But if you rank

412
00:17:41,100 --> 00:17:42,840
by actual revenue from ads,

413
00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:43,620
it's more like,

414
00:17:43,660 --> 00:17:44,060
I don't know,

415
00:17:44,220 --> 00:17:44,880
three or four

416
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:45,700
or something like that.

417
00:17:45,780 --> 00:17:47,120
They actually get

418
00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:48,340
a very small slice

419
00:17:48,340 --> 00:17:49,460
of the leftovers

420
00:17:49,460 --> 00:17:50,520
from Google and Facebook.

421
00:17:50,780 --> 00:17:51,920
So yeah,

422
00:17:52,100 --> 00:17:52,360
I mean,

423
00:17:52,500 --> 00:17:54,420
it seems like having worked

424
00:17:54,420 --> 00:17:55,360
in M&A stuff,

425
00:17:55,460 --> 00:17:56,480
like I can see that the,

426
00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:57,720
basically,

427
00:17:58,560 --> 00:17:59,940
the rationale,

428
00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:00,620
as they say,

429
00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:01,140
would be like,

430
00:18:01,260 --> 00:18:01,440
well,

431
00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:03,100
the way you make money

432
00:18:03,100 --> 00:18:04,060
on the internet is ads.

433
00:18:04,580 --> 00:18:05,280
So we better buy

434
00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:06,180
a bunch of that.

435
00:18:06,780 --> 00:18:07,700
No, I mean,

436
00:18:08,060 --> 00:18:08,620
2002,

437
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:11,140
Richard is really geeking out

438
00:18:11,140 --> 00:18:11,780
over this deal

439
00:18:11,780 --> 00:18:12,580
because that's,

440
00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:13,740
and this would have been

441
00:18:13,740 --> 00:18:14,400
really awesome.

442
00:18:14,740 --> 00:18:14,940
I mean,

443
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:15,180
hey,

444
00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:15,740
$5 billion

445
00:18:15,740 --> 00:18:16,800
is not chump change.

446
00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:17,480
You just wonder,

447
00:18:17,580 --> 00:18:18,220
as you think back,

448
00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:19,180
Microsoft offered,

449
00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:19,380
what,

450
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:20,360
$44 billion

451
00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:21,740
a few years back

452
00:18:21,740 --> 00:18:22,640
and heck,

453
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:23,380
Yahoo could have bought

454
00:18:23,380 --> 00:18:24,800
Google for a million dollars,

455
00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:25,560
whatever it was,

456
00:18:26,140 --> 00:18:27,220
back in the late 90s.

457
00:18:27,260 --> 00:18:28,960
So all sorts of revisionist history.

458
00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:29,940
It's so unfair

459
00:18:29,940 --> 00:18:31,160
to look at those things

460
00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:31,460
and say,

461
00:18:31,540 --> 00:18:31,880
what if,

462
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:32,580
because sure,

463
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:33,920
if Microsoft had bought Yahoo,

464
00:18:34,020 --> 00:18:34,640
maybe they would have

465
00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:35,800
gone crazy

466
00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:36,840
and done amazing stuff.

467
00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:38,300
So it's impossible now

468
00:18:38,300 --> 00:18:39,860
to mockingly look back

469
00:18:39,860 --> 00:18:40,100
and say,

470
00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:41,340
look at all these bad disasters

471
00:18:41,340 --> 00:18:41,620
because,

472
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:42,420
you know,

473
00:18:42,620 --> 00:18:43,160
in time,

474
00:18:43,260 --> 00:18:44,340
those things probably made

475
00:18:44,340 --> 00:18:45,840
plenty of contextual sense.

476
00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:47,560
But Yahoo is an interesting

477
00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:48,300
poster child

478
00:18:48,300 --> 00:18:49,460
for that company

479
00:18:49,460 --> 00:18:50,540
who really grew up

480
00:18:50,540 --> 00:18:51,560
with the rest of the internet

481
00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:53,260
and kind of an end of an era.

482
00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:54,520
Yeah.

483
00:18:54,660 --> 00:18:55,500
And I think,

484
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:55,820
you know,

485
00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:56,460
for me,

486
00:18:56,580 --> 00:18:57,960
I think nowadays you see,

487
00:18:58,140 --> 00:18:59,360
you see,

488
00:18:59,460 --> 00:19:00,300
you see a lot of

489
00:19:00,300 --> 00:19:01,880
10 plus year old tech companies

490
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:03,420
trying to figure out

491
00:19:03,420 --> 00:19:04,620
what to do,

492
00:19:04,860 --> 00:19:05,240
basically.

493
00:19:05,900 --> 00:19:06,340
And,

494
00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:07,000
and I think,

495
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:08,120
I think it'll be,

496
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:09,240
I don't know,

497
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:10,180
I probably actually won't

498
00:19:10,180 --> 00:19:10,960
pay attention to this,

499
00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:11,180
but,

500
00:19:11,260 --> 00:19:11,820
but in theory,

501
00:19:11,820 --> 00:19:13,560
it would be interesting

502
00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:15,460
and it's all

503
00:19:15,460 --> 00:19:16,100
my curiosity

504
00:19:16,100 --> 00:19:16,800
to kind of watch

505
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:17,800
what Verizon does

506
00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:18,140
with it,

507
00:19:18,260 --> 00:19:18,800
with this,

508
00:19:18,900 --> 00:19:19,860
this part of their business

509
00:19:19,860 --> 00:19:20,460
over the next

510
00:19:20,460 --> 00:19:21,400
three to five years

511
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:21,780
because,

512
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:22,900
you know,

513
00:19:22,940 --> 00:19:23,380
to the point,

514
00:19:23,460 --> 00:19:23,680
you know,

515
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:24,140
the,

516
00:19:24,260 --> 00:19:25,680
the positive version

517
00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:26,500
kind of,

518
00:19:26,580 --> 00:19:27,280
of what you were

519
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:28,000
just alluding to

520
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:28,580
is like,

521
00:19:28,700 --> 00:19:29,740
that's pretty cheap.

522
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:30,400
Like,

523
00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:30,820
like that,

524
00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:31,700
you pick up some,

525
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:33,180
some very well-known

526
00:19:33,180 --> 00:19:34,620
assets that have,

527
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:35,140
like,

528
00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:36,000
I think if I remember

529
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:36,820
like Yahoo Mail

530
00:19:36,820 --> 00:19:38,220
had like 230 million

531
00:19:38,220 --> 00:19:39,440
active monthly users

532
00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:39,980
or something.

533
00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:41,120
And you still have

534
00:19:41,120 --> 00:19:41,600
Tumblr

535
00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:42,140
and you still have

536
00:19:42,140 --> 00:19:42,920
all these other things.

537
00:19:43,260 --> 00:19:44,140
So you have all these things

538
00:19:44,140 --> 00:19:44,700
and if,

539
00:19:44,700 --> 00:19:45,040
if,

540
00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:45,780
if Verizon

541
00:19:45,780 --> 00:19:46,620
can basically

542
00:19:46,620 --> 00:19:47,340
run the business

543
00:19:47,340 --> 00:19:48,040
side better,

544
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:50,720
which maybe they could

545
00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:51,880
or maybe they couldn't.

546
00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:52,640
Acquisitions are

547
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:53,980
notoriously terrible.

548
00:19:54,820 --> 00:19:55,260
Like,

549
00:19:55,360 --> 00:19:56,260
like on average,

550
00:19:56,340 --> 00:19:56,820
so to speak.

551
00:19:56,900 --> 00:19:57,040
They,

552
00:19:57,100 --> 00:19:57,620
they usually don't

553
00:19:57,620 --> 00:19:58,320
pan out too well.

554
00:19:58,400 --> 00:19:59,300
But yeah,

555
00:19:59,480 --> 00:19:59,900
it's,

556
00:20:00,020 --> 00:20:00,920
along with several

557
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:01,580
other companies,

558
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:02,520
it'd be interesting

559
00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:03,280
to see how they come

560
00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:04,080
out the other side

561
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:05,660
of reconditioning,

562
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:06,120
if you will.

563
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:06,920
Absolutely.

564
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:07,340
Or,

565
00:20:07,340 --> 00:20:07,800
or the,

566
00:20:07,900 --> 00:20:08,200
the,

567
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:09,340
what was the name

568
00:20:09,340 --> 00:20:09,780
of that movie?

569
00:20:09,860 --> 00:20:10,000
The,

570
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:11,220
the golden pond era

571
00:20:11,220 --> 00:20:11,660
of,

572
00:20:11,740 --> 00:20:12,400
of their life.

573
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:13,280
What was the one

574
00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:14,200
with the little aliens

575
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:15,460
that come and like,

576
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:15,780
uh,

577
00:20:15,780 --> 00:20:16,620
give the old people

578
00:20:16,620 --> 00:20:17,220
extra life

579
00:20:17,220 --> 00:20:17,900
and they rearrange,

580
00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:18,980
range all the tiling

581
00:20:18,980 --> 00:20:19,620
in the lobby?

582
00:20:20,020 --> 00:20:20,720
Is that cocoon?

583
00:20:21,060 --> 00:20:21,600
What'd you think of that?

584
00:20:21,620 --> 00:20:22,420
Maybe it was cocoon.

585
00:20:22,660 --> 00:20:23,660
I'm thinking Mars attack

586
00:20:23,660 --> 00:20:24,660
when you say little aliens,

587
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:25,620
but I don't think that's it.

588
00:20:25,940 --> 00:20:26,240
Yeah.

589
00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:26,940
Maybe there's a whole,

590
00:20:27,100 --> 00:20:27,300
yeah,

591
00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:28,480
maybe it was cocoon.

592
00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:28,800
I think,

593
00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:29,040
well,

594
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:30,480
I'll have to look this up.

595
00:20:30,940 --> 00:20:32,060
Put it in the show notes.

596
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:32,860
That's right.

597
00:20:35,140 --> 00:20:35,800
But anyways,

598
00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:36,420
there's,

599
00:20:36,460 --> 00:20:37,340
there's some more wrap up

600
00:20:37,340 --> 00:20:37,600
of that.

601
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:38,020
And there's,

602
00:20:38,100 --> 00:20:38,740
I think there's actually

603
00:20:38,740 --> 00:20:39,320
a pretty good,

604
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:39,680
uh,

605
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:40,520
I forget the guy's name,

606
00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:40,820
but there's,

607
00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:41,700
there's a good article,

608
00:20:41,940 --> 00:20:42,260
uh,

609
00:20:42,420 --> 00:20:43,360
a lengthy analysis

610
00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:44,660
by this guy at Vox

611
00:20:44,660 --> 00:20:45,100
who,

612
00:20:45,100 --> 00:20:45,320
uh,

613
00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:46,000
it's kind of going over

614
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:46,820
the history of Yahoo

615
00:20:46,820 --> 00:20:47,360
and,

616
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:47,680
uh,

617
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:48,900
a little bit of the rationale

618
00:20:48,900 --> 00:20:49,540
for why,

619
00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:50,540
why it would be purchased.

620
00:20:50,700 --> 00:20:52,080
That's well worth

621
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:52,640
looking into.

622
00:20:53,420 --> 00:20:53,940
So next up,

623
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:54,120
yeah,

624
00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:55,200
we wanted to talk about

625
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:56,440
kind of the theme

626
00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:57,700
for the week is

627
00:20:57,700 --> 00:20:59,200
circle of software.

628
00:20:59,400 --> 00:20:59,900
So if you're not familiar

629
00:20:59,900 --> 00:21:00,980
with this concept,

630
00:21:00,980 --> 00:21:01,500
uh,

631
00:21:01,500 --> 00:21:02,500
our VP of engineering,

632
00:21:02,660 --> 00:21:04,960
Ansi did a presentation.

633
00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:05,700
Gosh,

634
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:06,540
was it back in January?

635
00:21:06,540 --> 00:21:07,460
I think at the kickoff.

636
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:08,160
And frankly,

637
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:09,040
that was a presentation

638
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:10,080
that helped seal the deal

639
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:11,140
for me to join Pivotal

640
00:21:11,140 --> 00:21:12,080
back in the spring

641
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:13,340
is I really just got

642
00:21:13,340 --> 00:21:14,200
a good sense of

643
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:15,780
the company's purpose

644
00:21:15,780 --> 00:21:16,260
and vision

645
00:21:16,260 --> 00:21:17,420
and what we were going after.

646
00:21:17,580 --> 00:21:18,440
And some of the,

647
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:19,420
the sense of what

648
00:21:19,420 --> 00:21:20,420
he talks about there

649
00:21:20,420 --> 00:21:20,840
and we'll link

650
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:21,860
to the YouTube video

651
00:21:21,860 --> 00:21:22,840
in the show notes

652
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:23,420
was in general

653
00:21:23,420 --> 00:21:23,800
was a,

654
00:21:24,140 --> 00:21:24,440
where is,

655
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:25,440
is PCF

656
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:25,660
and,

657
00:21:25,660 --> 00:21:26,120
and,

658
00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:26,660
and cloud

659
00:21:26,660 --> 00:21:27,480
going here

660
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:28,000
with Pivotal.

661
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:29,020
And he introduced

662
00:21:29,020 --> 00:21:30,160
this idea of

663
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:31,580
a circle of software.

664
00:21:31,580 --> 00:21:31,880
And,

665
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:32,920
you know,

666
00:21:32,980 --> 00:21:33,680
the idea there

667
00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:34,200
is that,

668
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:35,080
you know,

669
00:21:35,100 --> 00:21:35,420
as you,

670
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:36,660
as teams build software,

671
00:21:36,740 --> 00:21:37,580
you've got these stages,

672
00:21:37,580 --> 00:21:39,120
you've got ideas,

673
00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:39,680
of course,

674
00:21:39,740 --> 00:21:40,400
they come from

675
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:41,220
whatever customers

676
00:21:41,220 --> 00:21:42,220
or internal need

677
00:21:42,220 --> 00:21:43,940
or whatever those ideas are.

678
00:21:43,940 --> 00:21:45,220
You put those

679
00:21:45,220 --> 00:21:45,780
into some sort

680
00:21:45,780 --> 00:21:46,520
of prioritization

681
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:47,500
and planning process

682
00:21:47,500 --> 00:21:48,760
that turns into coding,

683
00:21:48,980 --> 00:21:49,980
that turns into

684
00:21:49,980 --> 00:21:51,280
a deployment process,

685
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:52,720
that turns into

686
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:53,900
running on a platform,

687
00:21:53,900 --> 00:21:55,300
that becomes something

688
00:21:55,300 --> 00:21:56,020
that you monitor

689
00:21:56,020 --> 00:21:56,660
and constantly

690
00:21:56,660 --> 00:21:58,440
collect feedback on

691
00:21:58,440 --> 00:21:59,420
and then feeds back

692
00:21:59,420 --> 00:21:59,980
into ideas.

693
00:22:00,100 --> 00:22:00,800
So this isn't

694
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:01,940
revolutionary stuff.

695
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:02,480
That's not,

696
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:03,140
you know,

697
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:04,000
I think I've basically

698
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:05,000
described a good

699
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:05,880
agile sprint

700
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:06,980
or even a waterfall

701
00:22:06,980 --> 00:22:08,180
process to some extent.

702
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:08,760
That is not,

703
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:09,560
we're not,

704
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:09,800
you know,

705
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:10,800
breaking new ground here.

706
00:22:10,860 --> 00:22:11,640
But I think it's

707
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:12,600
thinking about that

708
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:13,380
in terms of

709
00:22:13,380 --> 00:22:14,720
the software,

710
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:14,960
you know,

711
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:16,000
that is the life cycle

712
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:17,280
of a stage of software.

713
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:18,120
And what does it mean

714
00:22:18,120 --> 00:22:18,560
to have

715
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:20,240
the technologies there?

716
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:21,040
What does it mean

717
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:22,540
to iterate in that way?

718
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:24,120
What are those technologies?

719
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:25,400
Does anybody provide

720
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:26,540
all of those together?

721
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:28,040
Should one company

722
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:29,140
provide all those together?

723
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:29,720
And if so,

724
00:22:30,140 --> 00:22:31,180
what would we imagine

725
00:22:31,180 --> 00:22:32,440
that integration experience

726
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:33,000
to be like?

727
00:22:33,060 --> 00:22:33,360
And honestly,

728
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:34,100
talk through a bit

729
00:22:34,100 --> 00:22:35,980
of the casual experience

730
00:22:35,980 --> 00:22:36,700
when we covered up

731
00:22:36,700 --> 00:22:37,800
from a Pivotal perspective

732
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:38,220
is sure,

733
00:22:38,700 --> 00:22:39,920
I have crazy ideas.

734
00:22:40,260 --> 00:22:41,060
Some of that may have

735
00:22:41,060 --> 00:22:41,560
even come out

736
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,020
from working with Pivotal Labs.

737
00:22:43,500 --> 00:22:44,680
I then use something

738
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:45,620
like Pivotal Tracker

739
00:22:45,620 --> 00:22:47,080
to connect these things.

740
00:22:47,180 --> 00:22:48,680
And maybe I have an experience

741
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:49,100
where I go,

742
00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:50,260
I want a new project.

743
00:22:50,540 --> 00:22:51,180
And what we do

744
00:22:51,180 --> 00:22:52,120
is we spin up something

745
00:22:52,120 --> 00:22:52,940
in Pivotal Tracker.

746
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,100
We create a Git repo somewhere.

747
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:56,500
We sand you up

748
00:22:56,500 --> 00:22:57,940
maybe in a cloud IDE,

749
00:22:58,140 --> 00:22:58,900
a dev sandbox

750
00:22:58,900 --> 00:23:00,120
that is already loaded

751
00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:00,880
with Spring Boot.

752
00:23:01,660 --> 00:23:03,100
It's working with Concourse

753
00:23:03,100 --> 00:23:04,920
to do continuous deployment

754
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:06,220
to a PCF environment

755
00:23:06,220 --> 00:23:07,420
that's monitored closely

756
00:23:07,420 --> 00:23:08,760
using PCF metrics.

757
00:23:09,260 --> 00:23:10,140
And all that feeds back

758
00:23:10,140 --> 00:23:10,980
into the cycle,

759
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:11,840
the next iteration.

760
00:23:12,340 --> 00:23:13,720
That that's one flavor

761
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:14,700
of a Pivotal story,

762
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:16,240
but it can't be exclusive.

763
00:23:16,620 --> 00:23:17,740
And so I thought it'd be fun

764
00:23:17,740 --> 00:23:18,260
for you and I

765
00:23:18,260 --> 00:23:19,040
to talk a little bit

766
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:19,880
about what we think

767
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:20,860
of that circle.

768
00:23:21,340 --> 00:23:22,400
What are some of those tech

769
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:22,900
that we see?

770
00:23:22,980 --> 00:23:23,620
They're pretty popular

771
00:23:23,620 --> 00:23:24,300
at those stages.

772
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:25,940
And then where do we see

773
00:23:25,940 --> 00:23:26,780
that friction between

774
00:23:26,780 --> 00:23:27,460
some of those?

775
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:28,120
Because some cases

776
00:23:28,120 --> 00:23:28,800
you don't want to,

777
00:23:29,300 --> 00:23:29,540
I don't know,

778
00:23:29,540 --> 00:23:30,540
you want actual solutions

779
00:23:30,540 --> 00:23:31,280
to real problems.

780
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:31,720
You don't want to

781
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:32,780
manufacture problems.

782
00:23:32,780 --> 00:23:34,260
Where is there

783
00:23:34,260 --> 00:23:34,900
actual problem

784
00:23:34,900 --> 00:23:35,620
in those handoffs

785
00:23:35,620 --> 00:23:36,700
in that circle?

786
00:23:37,460 --> 00:23:37,720
You know,

787
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:38,180
what do we think

788
00:23:38,180 --> 00:23:38,980
of the landscape today?

789
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,600
What I liked about that,

790
00:23:41,700 --> 00:23:42,600
the concept is

791
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,280
it mirrors like

792
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:45,200
a lot of the,

793
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:47,120
I don't know

794
00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:47,620
if it mirrors,

795
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:49,820
but it's an example

796
00:23:49,820 --> 00:23:50,620
of the conversation

797
00:23:50,620 --> 00:23:51,380
I end up having

798
00:23:51,380 --> 00:23:52,680
with a lot of people

799
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:53,740
out there in the field,

800
00:23:53,820 --> 00:23:54,400
which is,

801
00:23:55,980 --> 00:23:56,800
this sounds kind of

802
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:57,400
condescending,

803
00:23:57,540 --> 00:23:58,040
but it's like,

804
00:23:58,260 --> 00:23:59,200
this is how software

805
00:23:59,200 --> 00:23:59,720
is done.

806
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:00,960
Right?

807
00:24:01,340 --> 00:24:02,280
And I think

808
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,560
by this is how software

809
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:04,880
is done,

810
00:24:04,940 --> 00:24:05,680
you alluded to it,

811
00:24:05,740 --> 00:24:07,280
but it's sort of like

812
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:07,860
if you look at

813
00:24:07,860 --> 00:24:09,020
the entire software

814
00:24:09,020 --> 00:24:10,380
process end to end,

815
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,200
it looks kind of simple

816
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:14,100
from the get-go,

817
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,340
especially retrospectively,

818
00:24:16,460 --> 00:24:16,940
in hindsight,

819
00:24:17,100 --> 00:24:17,900
when you explain it,

820
00:24:18,260 --> 00:24:19,040
but a lot of people

821
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:20,120
don't think about

822
00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:21,640
the full cycle of things.

823
00:24:21,820 --> 00:24:22,180
And I think

824
00:24:22,180 --> 00:24:23,580
that's a consequence

825
00:24:23,580 --> 00:24:24,560
of two things,

826
00:24:24,620 --> 00:24:24,840
at least.

827
00:24:24,900 --> 00:24:26,440
One of them is just like,

828
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:27,540
you know,

829
00:24:27,580 --> 00:24:28,320
like we were describing

830
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:29,380
when we were opening,

831
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:30,940
there's a lot of organizations

832
00:24:30,940 --> 00:24:33,360
who at the business level

833
00:24:33,360 --> 00:24:35,620
are looking to do software.

834
00:24:35,740 --> 00:24:36,580
And improve the way

835
00:24:36,580 --> 00:24:37,480
their software is done.

836
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:39,120
And they're trying to do it

837
00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:39,860
in a way that isn't

838
00:24:39,860 --> 00:24:40,760
just sort of like

839
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:41,540
as a tool,

840
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:42,240
like they want it

841
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:43,400
as the core thing

842
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:44,260
that they,

843
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:45,140
how they interact

844
00:24:45,140 --> 00:24:45,820
with their customers

845
00:24:45,820 --> 00:24:46,500
or their users.

846
00:24:46,780 --> 00:24:48,480
And what I think about here

847
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:49,160
is like,

848
00:24:49,900 --> 00:24:50,300
you know,

849
00:24:50,340 --> 00:24:51,020
most people like

850
00:24:51,020 --> 00:24:51,960
will think about software

851
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:52,520
as,

852
00:24:52,620 --> 00:24:52,740
well,

853
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:54,060
the straw man,

854
00:24:54,260 --> 00:24:55,380
straw person I'm constructing

855
00:24:55,380 --> 00:24:55,800
of like,

856
00:24:55,860 --> 00:24:56,020
oh,

857
00:24:56,020 --> 00:24:56,800
I've got email

858
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:58,160
or I've got an application

859
00:24:58,160 --> 00:24:58,920
that I use

860
00:24:58,920 --> 00:24:59,800
or ERP

861
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:00,760
or all these things.

862
00:25:01,360 --> 00:25:02,880
And they kind of know

863
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:04,060
that it's sort of like

864
00:25:04,060 --> 00:25:04,400
this,

865
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,640
this like quicksand

866
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:08,800
of like spending

867
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:09,560
and schedules

868
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:10,660
to customize it.

869
00:25:10,700 --> 00:25:11,860
And it's a little like dodgy,

870
00:25:12,020 --> 00:25:12,780
but there's,

871
00:25:12,900 --> 00:25:13,960
I don't think there's really been

872
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:15,800
a very mainstream understanding

873
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:17,860
of how software is produced.

874
00:25:18,060 --> 00:25:19,020
And so like you,

875
00:25:19,060 --> 00:25:19,500
you went through

876
00:25:19,500 --> 00:25:20,400
all the different phases

877
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:21,080
and it's,

878
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:22,500
it's especially the feedback part.

879
00:25:22,500 --> 00:25:23,800
Like it gives people an idea

880
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:24,400
of,

881
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,300
I guess how like creative

882
00:25:26,300 --> 00:25:27,900
and open-ended software can be.

883
00:25:28,340 --> 00:25:29,520
And analogously,

884
00:25:29,660 --> 00:25:29,880
like,

885
00:25:30,140 --> 00:25:31,320
I forget if I've gone over it

886
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:32,040
in this,

887
00:25:32,100 --> 00:25:32,980
in this podcast,

888
00:25:32,980 --> 00:25:34,300
but the analogy I always use

889
00:25:34,300 --> 00:25:34,800
is like,

890
00:25:35,300 --> 00:25:36,700
it's like those old

891
00:25:36,700 --> 00:25:37,640
submarine movies

892
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:38,760
that like you would see

893
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:39,420
in the 80s

894
00:25:39,420 --> 00:25:40,260
or at least I would

895
00:25:40,260 --> 00:25:40,980
where like,

896
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:42,360
there's always a major plot point

897
00:25:42,360 --> 00:25:43,200
where something breaks

898
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:43,820
in the submarine,

899
00:25:44,140 --> 00:25:44,780
whatever it is.

900
00:25:44,780 --> 00:25:45,180
And you're like,

901
00:25:45,380 --> 00:25:45,620
you know,

902
00:25:45,620 --> 00:25:47,520
you've got like two hours

903
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:48,640
until you run out of air.

904
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:49,960
So everyone goes to their bunk

905
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:50,820
and they fall asleep.

906
00:25:50,820 --> 00:25:51,140
Right.

907
00:25:51,220 --> 00:25:52,960
And then the engineer,

908
00:25:53,100 --> 00:25:53,340
like,

909
00:25:53,660 --> 00:25:53,820
you know,

910
00:25:53,820 --> 00:25:55,200
they go to the officer's quarter

911
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:56,200
and they knock off

912
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:56,800
all the tables

913
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:57,500
and they spread out

914
00:25:57,500 --> 00:25:58,400
this big schematic

915
00:25:58,400 --> 00:25:59,980
and then they isolate

916
00:25:59,980 --> 00:26:00,960
this one little part

917
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:01,640
in the schematic

918
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:02,160
and they're like,

919
00:26:02,260 --> 00:26:02,440
oh,

920
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:03,800
we just need to go like

921
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:05,460
put a bolt on it

922
00:26:05,460 --> 00:26:05,660
or,

923
00:26:05,660 --> 00:26:05,840
or,

924
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:06,220
you know,

925
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:06,720
whatever.

926
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:07,260
Or,

927
00:26:07,260 --> 00:26:08,900
or maybe the more extreme version

928
00:26:08,900 --> 00:26:10,160
is like someone has to like

929
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:11,080
sacrifice themselves

930
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:12,880
by going into the nuclear reactor

931
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:14,420
to like adjust something.

932
00:26:14,500 --> 00:26:15,400
So you're telling me

933
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,300
software is like U571.

934
00:26:17,500 --> 00:26:17,900
Exactly.

935
00:26:18,180 --> 00:26:19,320
And I think,

936
00:26:19,380 --> 00:26:20,240
I think a lot of people

937
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:21,420
view software like that

938
00:26:21,420 --> 00:26:22,200
where it's sort of like,

939
00:26:22,300 --> 00:26:22,420
oh,

940
00:26:22,460 --> 00:26:23,360
we've got this schematic

941
00:26:23,360 --> 00:26:24,540
and it's just kind of like

942
00:26:24,540 --> 00:26:25,700
hard work to go in there.

943
00:26:26,500 --> 00:26:27,080
And so like,

944
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:28,180
they've got to find

945
00:26:28,180 --> 00:26:28,920
prescriptive.

946
00:26:29,100 --> 00:26:29,500
Exactly.

947
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:30,040
Exactly.

948
00:26:30,140 --> 00:26:31,040
Because I hate the term

949
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:31,940
software factory.

950
00:26:32,120 --> 00:26:32,520
Exactly.

951
00:26:32,740 --> 00:26:33,860
Why that this is some sort

952
00:26:33,860 --> 00:26:34,960
of assembly line thing

953
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:36,200
that I can just hand a schematic

954
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:37,580
to any sort of pool of people

955
00:26:37,580 --> 00:26:38,720
to crank out code

956
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,620
is so condescendingly silly

957
00:26:40,620 --> 00:26:41,980
because software is often

958
00:26:41,980 --> 00:26:43,060
more art than science,

959
00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:43,600
unfortunately.

960
00:26:43,980 --> 00:26:44,420
That's right.

961
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:45,920
And then there's the other side.

962
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:46,200
I mean,

963
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:46,460
you know,

964
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:46,960
there's the,

965
00:26:47,820 --> 00:26:48,840
I forget the name of it,

966
00:26:48,860 --> 00:26:49,720
but there's a whole website

967
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:50,740
dedicated to where you've got

968
00:26:50,740 --> 00:26:51,860
that cartoon of like

969
00:26:51,860 --> 00:26:53,220
the tree swing

970
00:26:53,220 --> 00:26:54,400
that the user asked for.

971
00:26:54,580 --> 00:26:55,680
And then all these

972
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:56,420
different silos,

973
00:26:56,580 --> 00:26:57,160
like one of them

974
00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:58,240
makes a roller coaster.

975
00:26:58,460 --> 00:26:58,960
It's sort of like

976
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,340
what the business analyst wanted

977
00:27:00,340 --> 00:27:01,420
and the QA people wanted.

978
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:02,480
And then finally,

979
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:03,380
it's like what the customer

980
00:27:03,380 --> 00:27:04,040
actually wanted

981
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:04,960
was a tire swing,

982
00:27:05,100 --> 00:27:06,120
not like a wood swing.

983
00:27:06,120 --> 00:27:07,000
And like,

984
00:27:07,060 --> 00:27:07,600
that's the other thing

985
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:08,640
is unless you like

986
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,400
know the full end to end cycle,

987
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:11,920
it's hard to come out

988
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:12,460
the other end

989
00:27:12,460 --> 00:27:12,980
with software

990
00:27:12,980 --> 00:27:13,920
that you actually want.

991
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:14,680
And then so

992
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,160
I think,

993
00:27:16,220 --> 00:27:16,820
I think the other thing

994
00:27:16,820 --> 00:27:17,360
that's interesting

995
00:27:17,360 --> 00:27:18,140
and you know,

996
00:27:18,300 --> 00:27:20,020
the idea of the circle

997
00:27:20,020 --> 00:27:21,020
of software is like,

998
00:27:21,100 --> 00:27:22,240
and so what you should do

999
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:23,140
is pay attention

1000
00:27:23,140 --> 00:27:24,300
to all these phases

1001
00:27:24,300 --> 00:27:25,820
and how you tool them

1002
00:27:25,820 --> 00:27:27,460
and how they tie together

1003
00:27:27,460 --> 00:27:28,860
and all work with each other.

1004
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:29,460
And I think

1005
00:27:29,460 --> 00:27:31,160
what I started to see

1006
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:32,340
back when I was an analyst

1007
00:27:32,340 --> 00:27:33,080
and a little bit

1008
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:33,900
when I was at RedMonk,

1009
00:27:33,900 --> 00:27:34,420
but then when I went

1010
00:27:34,420 --> 00:27:35,280
to 451

1011
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,020
was that companies

1012
00:27:38,020 --> 00:27:38,780
like ourselves

1013
00:27:38,780 --> 00:27:39,520
and others

1014
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:40,880
are starting to

1015
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,740
basically base

1016
00:27:42,740 --> 00:27:43,840
their product portfolio

1017
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:45,280
on that entire cycle

1018
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:45,760
of things.

1019
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:46,720
So instead of just being

1020
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:48,020
like one component of it,

1021
00:27:48,060 --> 00:27:49,400
like an operating system

1022
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:50,060
or like,

1023
00:27:50,460 --> 00:27:51,540
I don't know,

1024
00:27:51,620 --> 00:27:52,680
network configuration,

1025
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:53,900
they're more concerned

1026
00:27:53,900 --> 00:27:54,440
with enabling

1027
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:55,460
that whole loop

1028
00:27:55,460 --> 00:27:56,000
of software

1029
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:56,720
that you have.

1030
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:57,840
because really like

1031
00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:59,380
if you don't enable

1032
00:27:59,380 --> 00:28:00,000
that whole loop,

1033
00:28:00,060 --> 00:28:00,980
you spend so much time

1034
00:28:00,980 --> 00:28:01,860
integrating and making

1035
00:28:01,860 --> 00:28:02,760
that stuff work together

1036
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:03,700
that you become more

1037
00:28:03,700 --> 00:28:04,460
of like a master

1038
00:28:04,460 --> 00:28:05,220
of duct tape

1039
00:28:05,220 --> 00:28:06,300
than really like

1040
00:28:06,300 --> 00:28:07,320
a master of

1041
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:08,280
the output

1042
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:09,100
of your software.

1043
00:28:09,860 --> 00:28:10,340
Right.

1044
00:28:10,660 --> 00:28:11,280
Well, I mean,

1045
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:12,520
to that point though,

1046
00:28:12,540 --> 00:28:13,180
I guess maybe

1047
00:28:13,180 --> 00:28:14,160
controversially,

1048
00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:15,520
if you're not committed,

1049
00:28:15,660 --> 00:28:16,080
if you're committed

1050
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:17,180
to doing projects

1051
00:28:17,180 --> 00:28:18,760
and not products

1052
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:19,560
and services,

1053
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:20,680
then you shouldn't

1054
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:21,660
worry about this

1055
00:28:21,660 --> 00:28:22,660
because if you're not

1056
00:28:22,660 --> 00:28:22,920
going to have

1057
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:23,740
a feedback loop,

1058
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:24,940
if you're just,

1059
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:25,340
you know,

1060
00:28:25,540 --> 00:28:26,420
putting together

1061
00:28:26,420 --> 00:28:27,720
an 18-month project

1062
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:28,340
to ship out

1063
00:28:28,340 --> 00:28:29,060
the latest version

1064
00:28:29,060 --> 00:28:29,680
of ERP

1065
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:30,560
or to crank out

1066
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:31,240
a custom-built

1067
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:32,080
CRM solution,

1068
00:28:32,580 --> 00:28:33,140
maybe just do

1069
00:28:33,140 --> 00:28:33,880
what works for you

1070
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:34,820
because don't

1071
00:28:34,820 --> 00:28:35,640
over-optimize

1072
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:36,900
on some of these stages.

1073
00:28:37,100 --> 00:28:37,500
If you do,

1074
00:28:37,540 --> 00:28:37,780
you know,

1075
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:38,700
three deployments

1076
00:28:38,700 --> 00:28:39,460
in the life cycle

1077
00:28:39,460 --> 00:28:40,080
of this thing

1078
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:40,760
and that's done

1079
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:41,840
and then you all move on,

1080
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:43,000
some of this would feel

1081
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:43,620
like overkill,

1082
00:28:43,700 --> 00:28:44,500
at least to me personally.

1083
00:28:44,980 --> 00:28:45,680
Who cares about

1084
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:46,600
automated deployment

1085
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:47,560
if you do it twice?

1086
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:48,580
Yeah.

1087
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:48,920
I mean,

1088
00:28:48,940 --> 00:28:49,200
you're not,

1089
00:28:49,540 --> 00:28:50,100
so, I mean,

1090
00:28:50,140 --> 00:28:50,640
to some extent,

1091
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:51,580
these are great ideas.

1092
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:52,660
Don't incorporate them

1093
00:28:52,660 --> 00:28:53,280
unless you're willing

1094
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:54,240
to actually take on

1095
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:55,240
the cultural change

1096
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:56,040
of saying software

1097
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:56,740
is a living,

1098
00:28:56,740 --> 00:28:57,500
breathing thing

1099
00:28:57,500 --> 00:28:58,720
for most every company

1100
00:28:58,720 --> 00:28:59,760
and you have to think

1101
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:01,020
about it as iteratively

1102
00:29:01,020 --> 00:29:01,720
updated,

1103
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:03,180
not I've released it

1104
00:29:03,180 --> 00:29:04,020
and I've moved on

1105
00:29:04,020 --> 00:29:05,040
and maybe that's DevOps,

1106
00:29:05,380 --> 00:29:06,060
maybe that's agile,

1107
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:07,120
whatever we want to call it,

1108
00:29:07,580 --> 00:29:08,680
that this sort of fits

1109
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:09,360
into a model

1110
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:09,960
that says

1111
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:11,520
any smart company,

1112
00:29:11,620 --> 00:29:12,040
whether these are

1113
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:13,400
the Fortune 10 companies

1114
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:14,420
we will work with

1115
00:29:14,420 --> 00:29:15,340
to a smaller shop

1116
00:29:15,340 --> 00:29:15,860
to a startup

1117
00:29:15,860 --> 00:29:17,940
is this is awesome.

1118
00:29:18,060 --> 00:29:18,640
The sort of circle

1119
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:19,500
of software concept

1120
00:29:19,500 --> 00:29:20,160
is powerful

1121
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:21,400
when you want to

1122
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:22,400
live in that way

1123
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:22,860
of working.

1124
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:23,840
it does not fit

1125
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:24,520
if all you have

1126
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:25,160
is a stable

1127
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:26,240
of monoliths

1128
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:27,700
that get updated

1129
00:29:27,700 --> 00:29:28,240
on occasion

1130
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:29,100
and user feedback

1131
00:29:29,100 --> 00:29:29,800
doesn't matter.

1132
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:30,800
Yeah.

1133
00:29:31,020 --> 00:29:33,680
I think there's something

1134
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:34,680
highly accurate to that

1135
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:35,200
which is

1136
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,020
unless you go,

1137
00:29:38,220 --> 00:29:38,780
let's call it

1138
00:29:38,780 --> 00:29:39,660
most of the way,

1139
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:40,980
then it's sort of

1140
00:29:40,980 --> 00:29:41,800
not worth it.

1141
00:29:42,300 --> 00:29:42,780
Right?

1142
00:29:42,940 --> 00:29:45,060
Like if you locally

1143
00:29:45,060 --> 00:29:45,620
optimize

1144
00:29:45,620 --> 00:29:46,640
on one component

1145
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:47,840
of this full cycle,

1146
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,700
then you won't

1147
00:29:50,700 --> 00:29:51,400
be optimizing

1148
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:52,480
the entire system.

1149
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:53,520
And there becomes

1150
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:54,360
a question of like

1151
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:54,880
was it worth

1152
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:56,180
optimizing that one point?

1153
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:57,800
And I don't think,

1154
00:29:58,900 --> 00:29:59,140
you know,

1155
00:29:59,180 --> 00:30:00,000
it's easy to take

1156
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:00,560
that sentiment

1157
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:01,320
as like

1158
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:01,880
and therefore

1159
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:02,980
don't change.

1160
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:04,800
But it's more

1161
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:06,180
of pushing people

1162
00:30:06,180 --> 00:30:06,760
to realize

1163
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:07,260
that there's

1164
00:30:07,260 --> 00:30:08,200
a lot more work

1165
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:09,460
than just optimizing

1166
00:30:09,460 --> 00:30:10,480
one section of it.

1167
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:10,700
Right?

1168
00:30:10,860 --> 00:30:11,620
Exactly right.

1169
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:12,640
So it's sort of like

1170
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:13,620
you could really

1171
00:30:13,620 --> 00:30:15,140
get a really good idea

1172
00:30:15,140 --> 00:30:16,800
of how you run

1173
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:17,560
your requirements

1174
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:18,380
and like

1175
00:30:18,380 --> 00:30:19,940
do your PMO office

1176
00:30:19,940 --> 00:30:20,680
stuff really well

1177
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:21,800
and just fix that up

1178
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:22,700
so you always knew

1179
00:30:22,700 --> 00:30:23,900
exactly where a requirement

1180
00:30:23,900 --> 00:30:24,840
was in the cycle.

1181
00:30:25,740 --> 00:30:26,760
But if you're not

1182
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:28,700
optimizing the way

1183
00:30:28,700 --> 00:30:29,820
that you're doing

1184
00:30:29,820 --> 00:30:30,340
your coding

1185
00:30:30,340 --> 00:30:31,080
and your testing

1186
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:31,820
and your ability

1187
00:30:31,820 --> 00:30:32,420
to deploy

1188
00:30:32,420 --> 00:30:33,700
and collect data

1189
00:30:33,700 --> 00:30:34,400
from how users

1190
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:34,880
are using it

1191
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:35,680
in a feedback loop,

1192
00:30:36,220 --> 00:30:37,000
then it's sort of

1193
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:37,960
like a lot of,

1194
00:30:38,300 --> 00:30:38,680
I don't know,

1195
00:30:38,780 --> 00:30:39,440
it's almost like

1196
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:40,160
I've got a really

1197
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:41,140
strong right arm

1198
00:30:41,140 --> 00:30:41,680
and the rest

1199
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:42,180
of your body

1200
00:30:42,180 --> 00:30:42,760
is just like

1201
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:43,440
Cheeto fed.

1202
00:30:44,100 --> 00:30:44,380
Yeah, I mean

1203
00:30:44,380 --> 00:30:45,220
and it's okay

1204
00:30:45,220 --> 00:30:45,840
to still do

1205
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:46,900
local optimizations

1206
00:30:46,900 --> 00:30:47,600
from time to time

1207
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:48,020
so I don't think

1208
00:30:48,020 --> 00:30:48,680
we're poo-pooing

1209
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:49,100
saying hey

1210
00:30:49,100 --> 00:30:49,560
if you can't

1211
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:50,240
make the whole

1212
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:50,960
shebang,

1213
00:30:51,300 --> 00:30:51,660
screw it,

1214
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:52,600
live in the dark ages.

1215
00:30:52,860 --> 00:30:53,200
But I think

1216
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:54,080
there's something about

1217
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:54,900
look,

1218
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:55,380
you've got to be

1219
00:30:55,380 --> 00:30:55,880
willing to say

1220
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:56,340
this is where

1221
00:30:56,340 --> 00:30:57,240
I'm trying to get to

1222
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:57,840
and it may take

1223
00:30:57,840 --> 00:30:58,360
me a while

1224
00:30:58,360 --> 00:30:58,900
and I might have

1225
00:30:58,900 --> 00:30:59,380
to optimize

1226
00:30:59,380 --> 00:31:00,020
each group

1227
00:31:00,020 --> 00:31:00,600
independently

1228
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:01,200
until I can

1229
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:01,780
finally say

1230
00:31:01,780 --> 00:31:02,900
the whole pipeline

1231
00:31:02,900 --> 00:31:03,920
feels better

1232
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:05,200
but this idea

1233
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:05,480
that says

1234
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:06,200
we're doing DevOps

1235
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:06,960
because devs

1236
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:07,760
can push to production

1237
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:08,860
that's typically

1238
00:31:08,860 --> 00:31:09,680
not remotely

1239
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:10,500
enough

1240
00:31:10,500 --> 00:31:11,420
because is your

1241
00:31:11,420 --> 00:31:12,440
finance team aligned?

1242
00:31:12,540 --> 00:31:13,080
Is your project

1243
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:13,880
planning aligned?

1244
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:14,660
Is your monitoring?

1245
00:31:14,660 --> 00:31:16,220
All those things

1246
00:31:16,220 --> 00:31:17,000
come into actually

1247
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:18,300
having a well-oiled

1248
00:31:18,300 --> 00:31:19,760
software delivery machine

1249
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:21,020
and if you're just

1250
00:31:21,020 --> 00:31:21,820
focusing on one

1251
00:31:21,820 --> 00:31:22,420
as you mentioned

1252
00:31:22,420 --> 00:31:24,740
in my previous job

1253
00:31:24,740 --> 00:31:26,380
working with a cloud team

1254
00:31:26,380 --> 00:31:27,660
we had spent months

1255
00:31:27,660 --> 00:31:28,820
using an unnamed

1256
00:31:28,820 --> 00:31:29,960
configuration management

1257
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:30,880
platform to automate

1258
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:31,960
some data center

1259
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:32,480
build outs

1260
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:33,600
and it was great

1261
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:34,560
but in the end of the day

1262
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:35,200
we probably saved

1263
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:36,020
a few hours

1264
00:31:36,020 --> 00:31:37,100
for something that we did

1265
00:31:37,100 --> 00:31:38,020
a half a dozen times

1266
00:31:38,020 --> 00:31:38,380
a year

1267
00:31:38,380 --> 00:31:38,940
was it worth

1268
00:31:38,940 --> 00:31:39,580
spending months

1269
00:31:39,580 --> 00:31:40,020
on that?

1270
00:31:40,300 --> 00:31:40,960
I don't know

1271
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:41,820
did that make

1272
00:31:41,820 --> 00:31:42,580
as much sense

1273
00:31:42,580 --> 00:31:43,100
as maybe doing

1274
00:31:43,100 --> 00:31:43,700
something else?

1275
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:44,540
So sometimes

1276
00:31:44,540 --> 00:31:45,060
thinking about

1277
00:31:45,060 --> 00:31:45,740
the payback

1278
00:31:45,740 --> 00:31:47,100
of what you're doing

1279
00:31:47,100 --> 00:31:48,180
and figuring out

1280
00:31:48,180 --> 00:31:48,880
are you ready

1281
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:49,320
for that?

1282
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:49,840
Do you need

1283
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:50,740
that sort of function?

1284
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:51,780
Can help you figure out

1285
00:31:51,780 --> 00:31:52,620
where in this circle

1286
00:31:52,620 --> 00:31:53,380
of software

1287
00:31:53,380 --> 00:31:54,320
to really invest

1288
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:54,760
your time

1289
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:55,100
and where's

1290
00:31:55,100 --> 00:31:55,420
your biggest

1291
00:31:55,420 --> 00:31:56,060
clogs

1292
00:31:56,060 --> 00:31:57,060
in your pipeline

1293
00:31:57,060 --> 00:31:58,220
start tackling

1294
00:31:58,220 --> 00:31:58,720
some of those

1295
00:31:58,720 --> 00:31:59,500
versus improving

1296
00:31:59,500 --> 00:32:00,000
those things

1297
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:00,300
that won't

1298
00:32:00,300 --> 00:32:01,260
actually unclog you?

1299
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:02,140
Yeah

1300
00:32:02,140 --> 00:32:03,220
it reminds me

1301
00:32:03,220 --> 00:32:03,680
of a

1302
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,040
when was this

1303
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:05,540
maybe

1304
00:32:05,540 --> 00:32:07,280
there was a good talk

1305
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:08,580
from Damon Edwards

1306
00:32:08,580 --> 00:32:09,740
at the 2015

1307
00:32:09,740 --> 00:32:10,840
DevOps Days Austin

1308
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:12,960
basically just going over

1309
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:13,960
like how to apply

1310
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:15,080
value stream mapping

1311
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:15,840
to software

1312
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:16,940
and you know

1313
00:32:16,940 --> 00:32:17,540
I mean that's a

1314
00:32:17,540 --> 00:32:19,240
as I like to say

1315
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:20,120
uppercase L

1316
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:21,280
lean tool

1317
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:22,360
where you

1318
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:23,540
map out

1319
00:32:23,540 --> 00:32:24,320
end to end

1320
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:25,460
from thinking about

1321
00:32:25,460 --> 00:32:26,440
some piece of software

1322
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,100
to actually delivering it

1323
00:32:28,100 --> 00:32:29,140
and having an end user

1324
00:32:29,140 --> 00:32:29,600
use it

1325
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:30,540
and then it's implied

1326
00:32:30,540 --> 00:32:30,920
you know

1327
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:31,740
the feedback

1328
00:32:31,740 --> 00:32:32,880
the loop

1329
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:33,200
where you're

1330
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:34,480
continually improving it

1331
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:35,160
but

1332
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:37,420
I think that's an area

1333
00:32:37,420 --> 00:32:38,660
that we don't talk

1334
00:32:38,660 --> 00:32:39,500
that's a tool

1335
00:32:39,500 --> 00:32:40,740
we don't talk enough about

1336
00:32:40,740 --> 00:32:42,080
in the software world

1337
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:43,280
is in the

1338
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:43,580
I don't know

1339
00:32:43,580 --> 00:32:44,240
maybe in management

1340
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:45,000
consulting land

1341
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:45,380
they do

1342
00:32:45,380 --> 00:32:46,840
but basically

1343
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:47,460
you know

1344
00:32:47,460 --> 00:32:48,100
the good thing

1345
00:32:48,100 --> 00:32:48,640
to start with

1346
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:49,160
is whatever

1347
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,000
the business process

1348
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:51,520
you're doing

1349
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:52,560
and then map out

1350
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:53,600
everything that's in there

1351
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:54,500
and then to your point

1352
00:32:54,500 --> 00:32:56,840
almost to prioritize

1353
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:58,060
the bottlenecks

1354
00:32:58,060 --> 00:32:58,920
that you'll be removing

1355
00:32:58,920 --> 00:32:59,880
and the optimizations

1356
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:00,580
that you'll be doing

1357
00:33:00,580 --> 00:33:00,920
because

1358
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:01,700
sure

1359
00:33:01,700 --> 00:33:02,660
removing two hours

1360
00:33:02,660 --> 00:33:03,060
a year

1361
00:33:03,060 --> 00:33:03,500
is

1362
00:33:03,500 --> 00:33:04,400
you know

1363
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:05,060
better than

1364
00:33:05,060 --> 00:33:05,760
as they used to say

1365
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:06,540
a stick in the eye

1366
00:33:06,540 --> 00:33:07,360
but like

1367
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:08,280
maybe there's a way

1368
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:08,780
you can remove

1369
00:33:08,780 --> 00:33:09,780
two hours a week

1370
00:33:09,780 --> 00:33:10,860
or something else

1371
00:33:10,860 --> 00:33:12,340
and until you have

1372
00:33:12,340 --> 00:33:12,800
that full

1373
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:13,600
end to end process

1374
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:14,420
it's hard to

1375
00:33:14,420 --> 00:33:15,580
prioritize

1376
00:33:15,580 --> 00:33:16,260
exactly

1377
00:33:16,260 --> 00:33:17,180
what to remove

1378
00:33:17,180 --> 00:33:18,100
yeah I mean

1379
00:33:18,100 --> 00:33:18,700
and you mentioned

1380
00:33:18,700 --> 00:33:19,040
earlier

1381
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:19,700
as we think about

1382
00:33:19,700 --> 00:33:20,700
software as a broader

1383
00:33:20,700 --> 00:33:21,220
discipline

1384
00:33:21,220 --> 00:33:21,700
than just

1385
00:33:21,700 --> 00:33:22,480
here's a bunch of

1386
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:22,980
you know

1387
00:33:22,980 --> 00:33:24,140
bearded geeks

1388
00:33:24,140 --> 00:33:25,040
in a hallway

1389
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:25,920
slinging out

1390
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:26,700
some code somewhere

1391
00:33:26,700 --> 00:33:27,180
that instead

1392
00:33:27,180 --> 00:33:27,800
this is something

1393
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:28,400
that involves

1394
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:29,720
increasingly diverse

1395
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:30,800
teams of

1396
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:31,700
different sort of

1397
00:33:31,700 --> 00:33:32,980
interest areas

1398
00:33:32,980 --> 00:33:33,320
and says

1399
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:33,920
look what you just

1400
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:34,440
described there

1401
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:35,040
is a big lean

1402
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:36,220
idea of saying

1403
00:33:36,220 --> 00:33:36,800
let's elevate

1404
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:37,520
constraints

1405
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:38,160
let's remove

1406
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:38,760
bottlenecks

1407
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:39,580
that's something

1408
00:33:39,580 --> 00:33:40,100
that you can even

1409
00:33:40,100 --> 00:33:40,920
get your Six Sigma

1410
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:41,880
geeks going on

1411
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:42,840
about when you

1412
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:43,220
think about

1413
00:33:43,220 --> 00:33:43,820
software and

1414
00:33:43,820 --> 00:33:44,280
optimization

1415
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:45,720
so hopefully

1416
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:46,040
hopefully a lot

1417
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:46,620
of what DevOps

1418
00:33:46,620 --> 00:33:47,420
has been about

1419
00:33:47,420 --> 00:33:48,780
take software

1420
00:33:48,780 --> 00:33:49,320
out of just

1421
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:50,000
being you know

1422
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:50,540
something that

1423
00:33:50,540 --> 00:33:51,440
gets pulled

1424
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:51,940
together on

1425
00:33:51,940 --> 00:33:52,480
projects

1426
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:52,900
that's something

1427
00:33:52,900 --> 00:33:53,460
that you think

1428
00:33:53,460 --> 00:33:54,300
about org wide

1429
00:33:54,300 --> 00:33:55,100
because again

1430
00:33:55,100 --> 00:33:55,700
you look at

1431
00:33:55,700 --> 00:33:56,600
you know

1432
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:57,240
we look at

1433
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:57,620
our biggest

1434
00:33:57,620 --> 00:33:58,060
customers

1435
00:33:58,060 --> 00:33:58,700
and they're

1436
00:33:58,700 --> 00:33:59,240
powered by

1437
00:33:59,240 --> 00:33:59,620
software

1438
00:33:59,620 --> 00:34:00,020
even if

1439
00:34:00,020 --> 00:34:00,260
they're in

1440
00:34:00,260 --> 00:34:00,600
healthcare

1441
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:01,500
or automotive

1442
00:34:01,500 --> 00:34:02,040
or in

1443
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:02,940
financial services

1444
00:34:02,940 --> 00:34:04,000
so this is

1445
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:04,600
not a cost

1446
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:04,860
center

1447
00:34:04,860 --> 00:34:05,480
this is something

1448
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:06,100
that everybody

1449
00:34:06,100 --> 00:34:06,920
can be involved

1450
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:07,280
in to make

1451
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:07,780
sure you build

1452
00:34:07,780 --> 00:34:08,620
the right stuff

1453
00:34:08,620 --> 00:34:09,600
so this sort

1454
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:10,220
of model I think

1455
00:34:10,220 --> 00:34:10,960
is very inclusive

1456
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:12,140
to a lot of

1457
00:34:12,140 --> 00:34:12,580
folks but

1458
00:34:12,580 --> 00:34:13,360
I'd be interested

1459
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:14,100
in your take

1460
00:34:14,100 --> 00:34:15,380
on where do

1461
00:34:15,380 --> 00:34:15,780
you see I mean

1462
00:34:15,780 --> 00:34:16,580
of these stages

1463
00:34:16,580 --> 00:34:17,400
in here which

1464
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:17,800
ones do you

1465
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:18,300
think have the

1466
00:34:18,300 --> 00:34:19,160
biggest bottlenecks

1467
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:19,460
I mean where

1468
00:34:19,460 --> 00:34:19,920
are those ones

1469
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:20,440
that maybe you

1470
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:21,160
wouldn't spend

1471
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:21,680
a ton of your

1472
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:22,820
time over

1473
00:34:22,820 --> 00:34:23,740
optimizing right

1474
00:34:23,740 --> 00:34:24,100
now even

1475
00:34:24,100 --> 00:34:24,780
prematurely

1476
00:34:24,780 --> 00:34:25,580
optimizing versus

1477
00:34:25,580 --> 00:34:26,220
those ones that

1478
00:34:26,220 --> 00:34:26,760
you see that

1479
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:27,880
say you know

1480
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:28,640
gosh this always

1481
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:29,400
you know when I

1482
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:29,900
talk to people

1483
00:34:29,900 --> 00:34:30,580
this always sounds

1484
00:34:30,580 --> 00:34:31,160
like a pain in

1485
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:31,720
the neck this

1486
00:34:31,720 --> 00:34:32,280
step between

1487
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:32,820
A and B

1488
00:34:32,820 --> 00:34:34,140
yeah I mean I

1489
00:34:34,140 --> 00:34:35,940
think basically

1490
00:34:35,940 --> 00:34:36,940
like getting it

1491
00:34:36,940 --> 00:34:37,620
into production

1492
00:34:37,620 --> 00:34:38,680
and and then

1493
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:40,320
also to a

1494
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:40,920
limited extent

1495
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:41,740
like managing

1496
00:34:41,740 --> 00:34:42,440
it in production

1497
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:43,040
I mean that

1498
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:44,220
that's I think

1499
00:34:44,220 --> 00:34:45,100
that's a big

1500
00:34:45,100 --> 00:34:48,060
deal in in

1501
00:34:48,060 --> 00:34:50,020
with respect to

1502
00:34:50,020 --> 00:34:50,700
the fact that

1503
00:34:50,700 --> 00:34:51,440
people don't do

1504
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:52,080
that as well as

1505
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:52,440
they should

1506
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:54,060
nowadays like I

1507
00:34:54,060 --> 00:34:54,660
think I think

1508
00:34:54,660 --> 00:34:55,260
once you get the

1509
00:34:55,260 --> 00:34:56,060
proper tools and

1510
00:34:56,060 --> 00:34:56,620
things in place

1511
00:34:56,620 --> 00:34:57,320
it's it's a lot

1512
00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:58,220
less cumbersome

1513
00:34:58,220 --> 00:34:58,880
than it is but

1514
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:00,340
I mean this is

1515
00:35:00,340 --> 00:35:01,000
like a boring

1516
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:01,820
old answer that

1517
00:35:01,820 --> 00:35:02,940
spawned like you

1518
00:35:02,940 --> 00:35:03,920
know trillions of

1519
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:05,000
dollars in IT

1520
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:06,260
spend but it's

1521
00:35:06,260 --> 00:35:06,620
just like

1522
00:35:06,620 --> 00:35:07,140
configuration

1523
00:35:07,140 --> 00:35:08,300
management's really

1524
00:35:08,300 --> 00:35:09,920
annoying like

1525
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:10,900
like getting

1526
00:35:10,900 --> 00:35:11,520
even getting

1527
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:12,300
stuff to prod

1528
00:35:12,300 --> 00:35:12,600
I mean we

1529
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:13,080
just saw a

1530
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:13,740
survey a couple

1531
00:35:13,740 --> 00:35:14,840
months ago 25%

1532
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:15,580
of shops are

1533
00:35:15,580 --> 00:35:16,520
doing CI at

1534
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:17,200
this point like

1535
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:18,140
there's a ton of

1536
00:35:18,140 --> 00:35:18,860
room to still go

1537
00:35:18,860 --> 00:35:19,340
to saying I

1538
00:35:19,340 --> 00:35:19,940
just finished

1539
00:35:19,940 --> 00:35:21,060
code so it

1540
00:35:21,060 --> 00:35:21,720
can go somewhere

1541
00:35:21,720 --> 00:35:22,620
that I can test

1542
00:35:22,620 --> 00:35:23,420
it like that is

1543
00:35:23,420 --> 00:35:24,420
not even remotely

1544
00:35:24,420 --> 00:35:25,280
a solved problem

1545
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:26,300
yet yeah so I

1546
00:35:26,300 --> 00:35:27,700
think I think I

1547
00:35:27,700 --> 00:35:28,440
don't know exactly

1548
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:29,120
how to describe

1549
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:29,940
that nowadays but

1550
00:35:29,940 --> 00:35:31,600
the idea of how

1551
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:32,280
do I take this

1552
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:33,600
hunk of code and

1553
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:34,560
get it reliably

1554
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:35,640
running the way I

1555
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:36,480
intended it to

1556
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,140
in another thing

1557
00:35:38,140 --> 00:35:39,200
right like out

1558
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:40,240
of dev out of

1559
00:35:40,240 --> 00:35:41,040
staging out of

1560
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:42,100
whatever and how

1561
00:35:42,100 --> 00:35:42,980
do I run it in

1562
00:35:42,980 --> 00:35:43,880
production and

1563
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:45,000
and that's

1564
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:45,780
difficult because

1565
00:35:45,780 --> 00:35:47,560
traditionally there's

1566
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:48,620
a handoff

1567
00:35:48,620 --> 00:35:49,820
ooh handoff

1568
00:35:49,820 --> 00:35:51,260
the bad word

1569
00:35:51,260 --> 00:35:52,660
phrase of

1570
00:35:52,660 --> 00:35:53,280
of like the

1571
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:54,160
configuration and

1572
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:54,920
how it's set up

1573
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:55,560
and all of that

1574
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:56,360
kind of stuff and

1575
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:57,680
what what's always

1576
00:35:57,680 --> 00:35:58,600
delightful to point

1577
00:35:58,600 --> 00:35:59,740
out sometimes I

1578
00:35:59,740 --> 00:36:00,380
mean sometimes it

1579
00:36:00,380 --> 00:36:01,240
doesn't like give

1580
00:36:01,240 --> 00:36:01,880
them an epiphany

1581
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:03,260
but if you're doing

1582
00:36:03,260 --> 00:36:04,200
things in a very

1583
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:05,340
cloud native fashion

1584
00:36:05,340 --> 00:36:06,560
there is a bit

1585
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:07,380
of a handoff

1586
00:36:07,380 --> 00:36:08,320
but there's not

1587
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:09,120
that much of a

1588
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:09,720
handoff because

1589
00:36:09,720 --> 00:36:10,320
you're running on

1590
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:10,760
the same

1591
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:12,040
infrastructure in

1592
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:13,600
in or even the

1593
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:14,520
same platform in

1594
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:15,660
dev staging and

1595
00:36:15,660 --> 00:36:16,380
production right

1596
00:36:16,380 --> 00:36:16,960
you're just kind of

1597
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:17,520
pointing it at

1598
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:18,960
different areas and

1599
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:19,540
I and I think

1600
00:36:19,540 --> 00:36:20,760
there's a there's

1601
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:21,260
an interesting

1602
00:36:21,260 --> 00:36:22,800
ability to strip

1603
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:23,560
out a bunch of

1604
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:24,620
the difference in

1605
00:36:24,620 --> 00:36:25,940
in that handoff

1606
00:36:25,940 --> 00:36:27,040
and and whenever

1607
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:27,700
you reduce that

1608
00:36:27,700 --> 00:36:28,260
reduce that

1609
00:36:28,260 --> 00:36:29,220
variability that's

1610
00:36:29,220 --> 00:36:29,900
what like makes

1611
00:36:29,900 --> 00:36:30,640
that that better

1612
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:31,440
and then and

1613
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:31,840
then of course

1614
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:32,180
there's the

1615
00:36:32,180 --> 00:36:32,700
annoyance of

1616
00:36:32,700 --> 00:36:33,100
just like

1617
00:36:33,100 --> 00:36:33,940
monitoring it and

1618
00:36:33,940 --> 00:36:34,560
if something goes

1619
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:35,200
wrong so I

1620
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:35,880
think I think

1621
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:36,220
that's the

1622
00:36:36,220 --> 00:36:37,040
biggest thing is

1623
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:37,960
like moving

1624
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:39,020
from let's

1625
00:36:39,020 --> 00:36:39,820
call it dev

1626
00:36:39,820 --> 00:36:40,400
to production

1627
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:40,880
and then the

1628
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:41,420
second biggest

1629
00:36:41,420 --> 00:36:42,640
problem and you

1630
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:43,840
see this like in

1631
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:44,620
surveys all the

1632
00:36:44,620 --> 00:36:45,320
time so it must

1633
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:46,580
be true but it's

1634
00:36:46,580 --> 00:36:47,620
basically just like

1635
00:36:47,620 --> 00:36:48,420
getting people to

1636
00:36:48,420 --> 00:36:49,020
tell you what it

1637
00:36:49,020 --> 00:36:49,620
is they want

1638
00:36:49,620 --> 00:36:50,300
which you could

1639
00:36:50,300 --> 00:36:52,020
call prioritization

1640
00:36:52,020 --> 00:36:53,040
or requirements

1641
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:54,180
management or

1642
00:36:54,180 --> 00:36:54,960
or whatever that

1643
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:55,680
is and that's

1644
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:57,380
that's like an

1645
00:36:57,380 --> 00:36:58,540
endless cycle of

1646
00:36:58,540 --> 00:37:00,080
suckiness like

1647
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:01,060
that's a really

1648
00:37:01,060 --> 00:37:01,860
it's a really hard

1649
00:37:01,860 --> 00:37:02,720
problem to solve

1650
00:37:02,720 --> 00:37:04,040
because it's kind

1651
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:04,780
of thankless

1652
00:37:04,780 --> 00:37:05,940
like you

1653
00:37:05,940 --> 00:37:08,560
don't with

1654
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:09,120
very few

1655
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:10,060
exceptions like

1656
00:37:10,060 --> 00:37:10,840
the idea of

1657
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:11,540
being a good

1658
00:37:11,540 --> 00:37:12,460
product manager

1659
00:37:12,460 --> 00:37:14,520
or designer

1660
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:15,080
in the all

1661
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:16,000
encompassing sense

1662
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:16,720
isn't always

1663
00:37:16,720 --> 00:37:17,900
celebrated as much

1664
00:37:17,900 --> 00:37:18,340
as the other

1665
00:37:18,340 --> 00:37:20,060
things and it's

1666
00:37:20,060 --> 00:37:20,820
it's it's a

1667
00:37:20,820 --> 00:37:21,520
difficult job and

1668
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:22,700
I think I think

1669
00:37:22,700 --> 00:37:23,480
the way that gets

1670
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:24,220
addressed nowadays

1671
00:37:24,220 --> 00:37:24,900
kind of gets back

1672
00:37:24,900 --> 00:37:25,560
to the point of

1673
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:27,860
like software is

1674
00:37:27,860 --> 00:37:28,860
hard and here's

1675
00:37:28,860 --> 00:37:29,820
the full cycle of

1676
00:37:29,820 --> 00:37:30,300
how you do

1677
00:37:30,300 --> 00:37:31,140
software so

1678
00:37:31,140 --> 00:37:31,780
there's more of

1679
00:37:31,780 --> 00:37:32,700
an awareness of

1680
00:37:32,700 --> 00:37:33,360
how important

1681
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:33,960
requirements

1682
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:34,740
management is

1683
00:37:34,740 --> 00:37:35,580
but then the

1684
00:37:35,580 --> 00:37:36,020
other thing is

1685
00:37:36,020 --> 00:37:36,640
like once you

1686
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:37,780
narrow down to

1687
00:37:37,780 --> 00:37:38,620
a weekly or

1688
00:37:38,620 --> 00:37:40,240
less cycle of

1689
00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:40,780
deployment

1690
00:37:40,780 --> 00:37:44,220
I think that

1691
00:37:44,220 --> 00:37:45,960
adds a lot of

1692
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:47,860
interesting stress

1693
00:37:47,860 --> 00:37:48,520
that becomes

1694
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:49,560
helpful stress

1695
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:50,220
to the system

1696
00:37:50,220 --> 00:37:50,940
of requirements

1697
00:37:50,940 --> 00:37:51,920
gathering that

1698
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:53,120
you're almost

1699
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:54,160
forcing the

1700
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:55,200
I'll keep calling

1701
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:55,620
them product

1702
00:37:55,620 --> 00:37:56,220
manager you're

1703
00:37:56,220 --> 00:37:57,180
forcing the product

1704
00:37:57,180 --> 00:37:57,880
manager whoever

1705
00:37:57,880 --> 00:37:59,280
comes up with

1706
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:00,640
requirements to

1707
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:02,120
almost do a

1708
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:03,080
painfully small

1709
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:04,560
amount of

1710
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:05,500
requirements per

1711
00:38:05,500 --> 00:38:06,640
cycle which I

1712
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:07,220
think has some

1713
00:38:07,220 --> 00:38:08,220
interesting effects

1714
00:38:08,220 --> 00:38:10,740
on on fixing up

1715
00:38:10,740 --> 00:38:11,540
requirements but

1716
00:38:11,540 --> 00:38:12,860
it does I think

1717
00:38:12,860 --> 00:38:13,820
I think if you were

1718
00:38:13,820 --> 00:38:14,420
to I think

1719
00:38:14,420 --> 00:38:15,600
nowadays the and

1720
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:16,460
maybe even over

1721
00:38:16,460 --> 00:38:17,160
time like the

1722
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:17,960
standish chaos

1723
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:18,940
reports always a

1724
00:38:18,940 --> 00:38:20,100
little fuzzy about

1725
00:38:20,100 --> 00:38:21,060
its trustworthiness

1726
00:38:21,060 --> 00:38:22,300
but like when you

1727
00:38:22,300 --> 00:38:22,760
look at those

1728
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:23,440
surveys of what

1729
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:24,200
causes software

1730
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:25,140
fail failure

1731
00:38:25,140 --> 00:38:26,660
inevitably it's

1732
00:38:26,660 --> 00:38:27,700
that like the

1733
00:38:27,700 --> 00:38:28,520
requirements were

1734
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:29,840
bad right like

1735
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:30,740
something was poor

1736
00:38:30,740 --> 00:38:31,260
with that so

1737
00:38:31,260 --> 00:38:31,880
that's that's the

1738
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:32,780
other huge area

1739
00:38:32,780 --> 00:38:33,760
and iterative

1740
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:34,880
feedback I mean I

1741
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:35,420
think that's where

1742
00:38:35,420 --> 00:38:37,100
agile people really

1743
00:38:37,100 --> 00:38:38,100
hammer on is because

1744
00:38:38,100 --> 00:38:39,180
you know for most

1745
00:38:39,180 --> 00:38:39,840
people why are we

1746
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:41,360
asking whatever we

1747
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:42,040
call it the business

1748
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:42,820
I hate that term

1749
00:38:42,820 --> 00:38:43,580
but you know the

1750
00:38:43,580 --> 00:38:44,260
idea of other

1751
00:38:44,260 --> 00:38:45,580
software stakeholders

1752
00:38:45,580 --> 00:38:46,440
saying this is what

1753
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:47,160
I want why are we

1754
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:47,760
assuming they know

1755
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:48,480
exactly what they

1756
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:49,280
want I mean it's

1757
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:50,040
I don't know if

1758
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:50,580
software is like

1759
00:38:50,580 --> 00:38:51,340
pornography where

1760
00:38:51,340 --> 00:38:52,020
you have to see it

1761
00:38:52,020 --> 00:38:52,760
to know what it is

1762
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:53,320
that's the supreme

1763
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:54,660
court answer but

1764
00:38:54,660 --> 00:38:55,600
there's something

1765
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:56,200
to it right I

1766
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:56,760
need to see what

1767
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:57,620
we're talking about

1768
00:38:57,620 --> 00:38:58,180
and then we can

1769
00:38:58,180 --> 00:38:58,520
say you know what

1770
00:38:58,520 --> 00:38:59,280
that now that's not

1771
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:00,020
right you're you

1772
00:39:00,020 --> 00:39:00,740
built what I asked

1773
00:39:00,740 --> 00:39:01,660
for but that's not

1774
00:39:01,660 --> 00:39:02,440
it and if I came

1775
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:03,040
out of that after

1776
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:03,960
18 months you'd

1777
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:04,320
want to kill

1778
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:05,200
yourself if I came

1779
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:05,820
out of that of a

1780
00:39:05,820 --> 00:39:06,400
weak software

1781
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:07,380
sprint we'd say

1782
00:39:07,380 --> 00:39:08,040
all right let's

1783
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:08,460
sit down and

1784
00:39:08,460 --> 00:39:08,920
figure out what

1785
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:09,920
it is that you

1786
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:10,540
did like or

1787
00:39:10,540 --> 00:39:11,580
didn't like and

1788
00:39:11,580 --> 00:39:12,320
let's iterate on

1789
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:13,800
that and so as

1790
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:14,280
you said I mean

1791
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:15,960
it was very keen

1792
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:16,580
point there when I

1793
00:39:16,580 --> 00:39:17,580
was running product

1794
00:39:17,580 --> 00:39:18,400
in my last job

1795
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:19,520
that it was good

1796
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:20,220
to see the teams

1797
00:39:20,220 --> 00:39:21,280
constantly purposely

1798
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:22,140
try to shrink

1799
00:39:22,140 --> 00:39:23,200
their release window

1800
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:23,860
because that would

1801
00:39:23,860 --> 00:39:24,780
force them to find

1802
00:39:24,780 --> 00:39:25,440
areas that were

1803
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:26,200
inefficient like

1804
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:27,280
regression testing or

1805
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:28,320
requirements management

1806
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:29,500
like you said where

1807
00:39:29,500 --> 00:39:29,980
all of a sudden the

1808
00:39:29,980 --> 00:39:31,260
product manager had to

1809
00:39:31,260 --> 00:39:32,280
be much better about

1810
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:33,480
upfront understanding

1811
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:35,040
acceptance criteria the

1812
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:36,100
requirements have that

1813
00:39:36,100 --> 00:39:37,340
queued up well ahead of

1814
00:39:37,340 --> 00:39:38,580
time because I can't

1815
00:39:38,580 --> 00:39:40,300
spend two days debating

1816
00:39:40,300 --> 00:39:41,420
sprint contents when I

1817
00:39:41,420 --> 00:39:41,960
have a week-long

1818
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:43,160
sprint like that's a

1819
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:44,420
horrible waste of time

1820
00:39:44,420 --> 00:39:45,920
exactly so you can do

1821
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:46,540
that if you have a

1822
00:39:46,540 --> 00:39:47,640
three-month sprint who

1823
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:48,400
cares you spend two

1824
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:49,160
days on requirements

1825
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:50,240
what's it matter boy

1826
00:39:50,240 --> 00:39:51,560
that is super wasteful

1827
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:52,360
when I'm trying to

1828
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:53,220
ship every week so

1829
00:39:53,220 --> 00:39:53,920
it's a really cool

1830
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:55,020
pressure point that

1831
00:39:55,020 --> 00:39:55,840
forces you to get

1832
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:56,880
better and let you

1833
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:57,640
accept the fact that

1834
00:39:57,640 --> 00:39:58,640
you might throw away

1835
00:39:58,640 --> 00:39:59,520
stuff after every

1836
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:00,200
sprint because you

1837
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:00,980
didn't get it right

1838
00:40:00,980 --> 00:40:01,960
but it's better to do

1839
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:03,340
that constantly than

1840
00:40:03,340 --> 00:40:04,200
assume that you can

1841
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:05,080
magically lock

1842
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:06,260
requirements and

1843
00:40:06,260 --> 00:40:07,200
then start development

1844
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,080
yeah it reminds me of

1845
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,540
a good Texas startup

1846
00:40:11,540 --> 00:40:13,520
CEO story where like

1847
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,980
the first startup I

1848
00:40:15,980 --> 00:40:16,880
worked for we had

1849
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:18,040
like a very very

1850
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:19,360
awesomely classic

1851
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:20,680
Texas CEO and I

1852
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:21,700
remember he was he

1853
00:40:21,700 --> 00:40:22,380
was talking to one of

1854
00:40:22,380 --> 00:40:23,120
our customers he's

1855
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:24,180
like check this out

1856
00:40:24,180 --> 00:40:25,440
I've got this magic

1857
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:26,700
whiteboard I just

1858
00:40:26,700 --> 00:40:27,620
write stuff on this

1859
00:40:27,620 --> 00:40:28,480
whiteboard and those

1860
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:29,480
boys over there in the

1861
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:30,740
next room they code it

1862
00:40:30,740 --> 00:40:31,840
and tomorrow it's in

1863
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:33,200
production you know

1864
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:34,500
like essentially like

1865
00:40:34,500 --> 00:40:35,860
which because we were

1866
00:40:35,860 --> 00:40:36,600
on like because we

1867
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:36,920
were a bunch of

1868
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:37,560
high school people

1869
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:38,180
didn't you know

1870
00:40:38,180 --> 00:40:38,780
didn't know any

1871
00:40:38,780 --> 00:40:39,520
better back in the

1872
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:40,660
CGI bin days and

1873
00:40:40,660 --> 00:40:41,360
like you know there

1874
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:42,180
would be an idea and

1875
00:40:42,180 --> 00:40:42,760
you would put it in

1876
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:43,880
production and well I

1877
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:44,460
mean you would code it

1878
00:40:44,460 --> 00:40:45,000
up and put it in

1879
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:46,280
production now that's

1880
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:47,540
half of it right and

1881
00:40:47,540 --> 00:40:48,200
and the way I think

1882
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:49,620
about that is I

1883
00:40:49,620 --> 00:40:50,280
forget where I got

1884
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:51,260
this notion from but

1885
00:40:51,260 --> 00:40:52,440
something I was

1886
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:53,220
reading a while ago

1887
00:40:53,220 --> 00:40:54,360
pointed out that like

1888
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:55,400
software is

1889
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,680
incredibly fungible

1890
00:40:58,680 --> 00:40:59,840
it's it's you know

1891
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:00,960
it's agile you can

1892
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:01,960
make it do whatever

1893
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:03,660
you want now you

1894
00:41:03,660 --> 00:41:05,020
can also unintentionally

1895
00:41:05,020 --> 00:41:05,960
build up so much

1896
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:06,640
technical debt

1897
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:07,720
and just like

1898
00:41:07,720 --> 00:41:08,840
swampiness that you

1899
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:09,460
can't make it do

1900
00:41:09,460 --> 00:41:10,180
anything because you're

1901
00:41:10,180 --> 00:41:11,660
like stuck essentially

1902
00:41:11,660 --> 00:41:12,880
so you've got to guard

1903
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:13,540
against that but

1904
00:41:13,540 --> 00:41:15,260
basically that's the

1905
00:41:15,260 --> 00:41:16,520
thing about software is

1906
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:17,700
like it can kind of

1907
00:41:17,700 --> 00:41:19,500
defy a lot of rules of

1908
00:41:19,500 --> 00:41:21,780
reality like it's not

1909
00:41:21,780 --> 00:41:23,160
like you know it's not

1910
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:24,000
like the physical world

1911
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:25,080
where you can't create

1912
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:26,520
an Escher hallway of

1913
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:27,520
just impossible

1914
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:29,200
illusions but in

1915
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:29,800
software you can do

1916
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:30,460
kind of whatever you

1917
00:41:30,460 --> 00:41:31,660
want as long as you

1918
00:41:31,660 --> 00:41:33,100
write it correctly and

1919
00:41:33,100 --> 00:41:35,320
so now so you can have

1920
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:36,100
that magic whiteboard

1921
00:41:36,100 --> 00:41:36,660
but I think the

1922
00:41:36,660 --> 00:41:37,560
important thing that

1923
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:38,740
like back in the late

1924
00:41:38,740 --> 00:41:40,380
90s the was not

1925
00:41:40,380 --> 00:41:41,880
implied is like and

1926
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:42,940
also I'm going to have

1927
00:41:42,940 --> 00:41:43,700
a lot of bonkers

1928
00:41:43,700 --> 00:41:45,140
ideas and they're also

1929
00:41:45,140 --> 00:41:45,860
going to code it

1930
00:41:45,860 --> 00:41:47,160
incorrectly but we can

1931
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:48,780
go back and fix it and

1932
00:41:48,780 --> 00:41:50,540
so this this sort of

1933
00:41:50,540 --> 00:41:51,740
like humbleness of like

1934
00:41:51,740 --> 00:41:52,720
yeah we don't really

1935
00:41:52,720 --> 00:41:53,640
know exactly what's

1936
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:55,160
going on so what's

1937
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:56,300
important is that we

1938
00:41:56,300 --> 00:41:57,380
build in a process that

1939
00:41:57,380 --> 00:41:58,380
allows us to make

1940
00:41:58,380 --> 00:42:00,640
mistakes and not have

1941
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:01,600
that bring things down

1942
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:02,520
and also learn from

1943
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:03,240
and correct those

1944
00:42:03,240 --> 00:42:04,080
mistakes and I think

1945
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,080
that's one of the huge

1946
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:07,540
philosophic things that

1947
00:42:07,540 --> 00:42:09,320
hopefully has has really

1948
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:10,200
crystallized and

1949
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:11,420
hopefully is percolating

1950
00:42:11,420 --> 00:42:12,820
and it's crystallized over

1951
00:42:12,820 --> 00:42:13,800
the past five years is

1952
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:14,960
like software is really

1953
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,080
fungible and we're also

1954
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:19,160
allowed to make mistakes

1955
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:20,440
because it can be it's

1956
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:21,340
resilient we can roll

1957
00:42:21,340 --> 00:42:22,600
things back and the only

1958
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:23,300
way we're really going to

1959
00:42:23,300 --> 00:42:24,520
make it good is if we do

1960
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:25,560
make mistakes and we

1961
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:27,060
study things like we've

1962
00:42:27,060 --> 00:42:27,840
got to get rid of this

1963
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:28,580
idea that we're going to

1964
00:42:28,580 --> 00:42:29,600
do things perfectly the

1965
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:30,820
first time and then we

1966
00:42:30,820 --> 00:42:32,060
can learn and improve

1967
00:42:32,060 --> 00:42:33,540
things yeah and I think

1968
00:42:33,540 --> 00:42:34,600
that that touches on

1969
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:35,300
there are a couple of

1970
00:42:35,300 --> 00:42:36,060
other areas I would

1971
00:42:36,060 --> 00:42:36,760
point out where I think

1972
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:37,680
there's there's friction

1973
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:38,480
I think your deployment

1974
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:40,440
one's spot on but you

1975
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:41,100
know I have more

1976
00:42:41,100 --> 00:42:42,220
appreciation now I think

1977
00:42:42,220 --> 00:42:43,080
for bootstrapping a

1978
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:44,340
project is going from

1979
00:42:44,340 --> 00:42:45,420
I'd like to start

1980
00:42:45,420 --> 00:42:46,620
something to actually

1981
00:42:46,620 --> 00:42:47,380
getting all the machinery

1982
00:42:47,380 --> 00:42:48,180
in place while the

1983
00:42:48,180 --> 00:42:49,200
devs are coding on it

1984
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:50,500
and so I do like the

1985
00:42:50,500 --> 00:42:51,320
idea of thinking well

1986
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:52,320
how do I kind of go

1987
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:53,440
from I'm ready to go to

1988
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:54,560
spinning up whatever my

1989
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:56,020
project planning tool is to

1990
00:42:56,020 --> 00:42:57,480
my dev workspace to the

1991
00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:59,080
right libraries to the

1992
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:00,320
right services the right

1993
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:01,560
things I can deploy to

1994
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:02,420
you know I don't want to

1995
00:43:02,420 --> 00:43:03,460
have a three-week warm

1996
00:43:03,460 --> 00:43:04,400
up while I get vagrant

1997
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,100
images figured out and

1998
00:43:06,100 --> 00:43:07,380
I'm you know figuring out

1999
00:43:07,380 --> 00:43:08,780
my git repo structure so

2000
00:43:08,780 --> 00:43:09,860
I can see a lot of

2001
00:43:09,860 --> 00:43:10,680
value and I don't think

2002
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:11,880
anyone is totally solving

2003
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:12,660
this yet we mentioned

2004
00:43:12,660 --> 00:43:13,740
code envy and companies

2005
00:43:13,740 --> 00:43:14,640
up front that are trying

2006
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:15,920
to help with that but I

2007
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:16,520
don't know if I've seen

2008
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:17,920
anyone totally solve that

2009
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:19,440
go from zero to

2010
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:20,940
productive developer on

2011
00:43:20,940 --> 00:43:21,760
some sort of bigger

2012
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:23,600
project in a matter of

2013
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:24,740
minutes or hours I

2014
00:43:24,740 --> 00:43:25,440
think that's a friction

2015
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:26,480
area that you know I'd

2016
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:27,500
love us to help solve

2017
00:43:27,500 --> 00:43:28,040
and I know we're doing

2018
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:29,460
some work there and then

2019
00:43:29,460 --> 00:43:30,800
the other one I think the

2020
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:32,900
monitoring side is is you

2021
00:43:32,900 --> 00:43:33,680
know just on a call this

2022
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:34,480
morning with one of our

2023
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:35,720
monitoring partners and we

2024
00:43:35,720 --> 00:43:36,700
talked about the fact that

2025
00:43:36,700 --> 00:43:37,900
I think nowadays nobody

2026
00:43:37,900 --> 00:43:40,580
cares somebody cares at most

2027
00:43:40,580 --> 00:43:41,520
developers do not care

2028
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:43,200
about the busyness of their

2029
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:44,620
server or maybe even the

2030
00:43:44,620 --> 00:43:46,460
business of their service

2031
00:43:46,460 --> 00:43:47,460
they care about the app

2032
00:43:47,460 --> 00:43:49,060
service as a whole like how

2033
00:43:49,060 --> 00:43:51,080
is my as you say you know

2034
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:52,420
my airline service working

2035
00:43:52,420 --> 00:43:53,680
it's made up of a million

2036
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:55,340
components but what really

2037
00:43:55,340 --> 00:43:56,400
matters is the health the

2038
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:57,580
outside in inside out

2039
00:43:57,580 --> 00:43:58,900
health of that service

2040
00:43:58,900 --> 00:44:00,140
because other things are

2041
00:44:00,140 --> 00:44:01,000
changing all the time

2042
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:02,420
underneath containers and

2043
00:44:02,420 --> 00:44:03,560
services and hard drives

2044
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:05,400
and so thinking about that

2045
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:06,340
differently collecting

2046
00:44:06,340 --> 00:44:08,540
feedback monitoring it and

2047
00:44:08,540 --> 00:44:09,740
then also taking in human

2048
00:44:09,740 --> 00:44:10,940
feedback as you said I

2049
00:44:10,940 --> 00:44:12,300
mean it's also finding out

2050
00:44:12,300 --> 00:44:13,580
someone didn't like this or

2051
00:44:13,580 --> 00:44:14,500
no one is using this

2052
00:44:14,500 --> 00:44:15,660
feature and how do I take

2053
00:44:15,660 --> 00:44:17,400
all this sort of data and

2054
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:18,900
turn that back into ideas

2055
00:44:18,900 --> 00:44:20,720
that feed an iteration I

2056
00:44:20,720 --> 00:44:21,700
don't see that as a solved

2057
00:44:21,700 --> 00:44:22,980
problem yet again a lot of

2058
00:44:22,980 --> 00:44:24,180
interesting areas potentially

2059
00:44:24,180 --> 00:44:25,360
for machine learning and

2060
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:26,780
data analytics and other

2061
00:44:26,780 --> 00:44:28,340
ways to glean insight from

2062
00:44:28,340 --> 00:44:29,700
usage patterns and data

2063
00:44:29,700 --> 00:44:31,420
consumption but that doesn't

2064
00:44:31,420 --> 00:44:32,340
seem like that's a done

2065
00:44:32,340 --> 00:44:33,360
problem and still there's

2066
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:34,660
friction there yeah yeah

2067
00:44:34,660 --> 00:44:36,120
no that I'll have to write

2068
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:36,820
this down we should we

2069
00:44:36,820 --> 00:44:37,420
should talk about

2070
00:44:37,420 --> 00:44:39,760
monitoring at in a future

2071
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:40,680
episode because you know

2072
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:41,620
that's that's like the

2073
00:44:41,620 --> 00:44:42,600
software I used to write

2074
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:44,440
when I was at BMC a while

2075
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,540
ago and it reminds me of a

2076
00:44:47,540 --> 00:44:49,600
meeting I had two weeks

2077
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,240
ago where someone brought

2078
00:44:52,240 --> 00:44:52,960
us in one of our

2079
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:53,940
customers brought us in to

2080
00:44:53,940 --> 00:44:55,360
kind of go over how they

2081
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:56,240
were doing things to

2082
00:44:56,240 --> 00:44:57,540
basically be like what do

2083
00:44:57,540 --> 00:44:58,660
you make of that right

2084
00:44:58,660 --> 00:44:59,700
like to give them some

2085
00:44:59,700 --> 00:45:01,600
input on it and one of

2086
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:02,720
the one of the the

2087
00:45:02,720 --> 00:45:03,860
monitoring insights that

2088
00:45:03,860 --> 00:45:05,640
they had was that they

2089
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:06,820
primarily cared about

2090
00:45:06,820 --> 00:45:07,600
exactly what you were

2091
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:08,680
saying as we used to

2092
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:09,840
call it synthetic user

2093
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,740
monitoring or I even have

2094
00:45:12,740 --> 00:45:13,600
it wrong but transact

2095
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:14,760
synthetic transaction

2096
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:16,660
monitoring and back in my

2097
00:45:16,660 --> 00:45:18,080
day when I had less gray

2098
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:19,440
hair or none the

2099
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:20,580
prototypical example would

2100
00:45:20,580 --> 00:45:22,000
be buying a book right

2101
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:23,480
like search for a book

2102
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:24,380
put it in your shopping

2103
00:45:24,380 --> 00:45:25,460
cart give it your payment

2104
00:45:25,460 --> 00:45:26,560
details and make sure you

2105
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:28,660
can buy it and the sort

2106
00:45:28,660 --> 00:45:32,100
of conceit of of user of

2107
00:45:32,100 --> 00:45:33,260
transaction monitoring is

2108
00:45:33,260 --> 00:45:33,840
exactly what you're

2109
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:35,500
saying is like we could

2110
00:45:35,500 --> 00:45:36,720
monitor everything

2111
00:45:36,720 --> 00:45:38,220
including like disk space

2112
00:45:38,220 --> 00:45:40,940
and CPU but really we

2113
00:45:40,940 --> 00:45:41,840
should just make sure we

2114
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:43,560
can make money like you

2115
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:45,340
know if if basically our

2116
00:45:45,340 --> 00:45:47,540
data center is on fire and

2117
00:45:47,540 --> 00:45:49,060
yet mysteriously we're

2118
00:45:49,060 --> 00:45:50,400
still like selling books

2119
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:51,980
then maybe we don't care

2120
00:45:51,980 --> 00:45:52,980
that it's on fire I mean

2121
00:45:52,980 --> 00:45:53,660
that's a ludicrous

2122
00:45:53,660 --> 00:45:54,740
example but it's sort of

2123
00:45:54,740 --> 00:45:57,840
like you know getting down

2124
00:45:57,840 --> 00:45:58,820
to the root cause of

2125
00:45:58,820 --> 00:46:00,400
problems can sort of be

2126
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,220
helpful in many cases

2127
00:46:03,220 --> 00:46:04,820
fact right yeah yeah

2128
00:46:04,820 --> 00:46:06,080
do forensics that stuff

2129
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:07,360
matters a ton but it

2130
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:08,660
doesn't necessarily light me

2131
00:46:08,660 --> 00:46:09,740
up right now in terms of

2132
00:46:09,740 --> 00:46:11,300
priority yeah yeah and and

2133
00:46:11,300 --> 00:46:12,200
then what you really want

2134
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:14,220
like I was putting it

2135
00:46:14,220 --> 00:46:14,820
out the wrong way but

2136
00:46:14,820 --> 00:46:16,240
like it you probably

2137
00:46:16,240 --> 00:46:17,460
don't want to build up

2138
00:46:17,460 --> 00:46:18,600
to knowing that your

2139
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:19,720
Christmas tree is red

2140
00:46:19,720 --> 00:46:20,780
essentially of all your

2141
00:46:20,780 --> 00:46:21,720
alerts right you want to

2142
00:46:21,720 --> 00:46:22,640
start at the top and say

2143
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:23,400
like what's the user

2144
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:24,620
experience like and then

2145
00:46:24,620 --> 00:46:25,640
once things start to go

2146
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:27,240
yellow and red it's good

2147
00:46:27,240 --> 00:46:28,380
to go down and dig into

2148
00:46:28,380 --> 00:46:29,620
the details now of course

2149
00:46:29,620 --> 00:46:31,100
if you know that if you

2150
00:46:31,100 --> 00:46:32,280
run out of disk space on

2151
00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:33,640
the database cluster then

2152
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:35,080
things will go bad that's

2153
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:36,140
probably a good idea to

2154
00:46:36,140 --> 00:46:37,880
monitor that but like you

2155
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:39,740
know it's it's not like

2156
00:46:39,740 --> 00:46:40,680
back when I used to do

2157
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:42,080
things where basically the

2158
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:43,480
the technique was monitor

2159
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,020
everything right like get

2160
00:46:46,020 --> 00:46:47,320
get the get the mib for

2161
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:47,820
the thing you're

2162
00:46:47,820 --> 00:46:48,820
monitoring and just like

2163
00:46:48,820 --> 00:46:49,820
monitor all that because

2164
00:46:49,820 --> 00:46:50,460
you're probably going to

2165
00:46:50,460 --> 00:46:51,780
need it but that seems

2166
00:46:51,780 --> 00:46:53,460
like a a pretty good way

2167
00:46:53,460 --> 00:46:54,220
of going about doing

2168
00:46:54,220 --> 00:46:55,200
monitoring and I think

2169
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:56,260
also why log collecting

2170
00:46:56,260 --> 00:46:57,520
so popular because logs

2171
00:46:57,520 --> 00:46:59,660
are one easy to get and

2172
00:46:59,660 --> 00:47:00,440
they're good for like

2173
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:01,780
after the fact monitoring

2174
00:47:01,780 --> 00:47:03,180
in sort of near real

2175
00:47:03,180 --> 00:47:04,140
time versus like

2176
00:47:04,140 --> 00:47:05,580
thoroughly monitoring all

2177
00:47:05,580 --> 00:47:06,600
your your wingdings

2178
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,820
essentially well that I

2179
00:47:09,820 --> 00:47:11,260
think I think I think

2180
00:47:11,260 --> 00:47:12,380
the idea of the the

2181
00:47:12,380 --> 00:47:13,380
circle of code or all

2182
00:47:13,380 --> 00:47:14,400
these things it's it's a

2183
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:16,080
good it's a rich vein for

2184
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:17,580
future topics to go over

2185
00:47:17,580 --> 00:47:18,940
so we'll have to touch on

2186
00:47:18,940 --> 00:47:19,960
that some more and

2187
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:20,880
absolutely coming

2188
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,520
episodes so speaking of

2189
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:25,340
making software I think

2190
00:47:25,340 --> 00:47:27,020
it's it's next week that

2191
00:47:27,020 --> 00:47:27,640
we're finally going to

2192
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:28,380
have our SpringOne

2193
00:47:28,380 --> 00:47:29,440
platform conference

2194
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:31,420
August 1st to 4th it'll

2195
00:47:31,420 --> 00:47:33,000
be very exciting I'm

2196
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:34,300
actually going to Las

2197
00:47:34,300 --> 00:47:35,640
Vegas later today for the

2198
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:37,540
GE predix conference so

2199
00:47:37,540 --> 00:47:38,680
I'll I'll do some

2200
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:39,900
some scouting see how

2201
00:47:39,900 --> 00:47:41,320
the city's doing and

2202
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:42,520
I'll get I'll be there

2203
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:43,680
twice in a row and so

2204
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:45,020
we know I think there'll

2205
00:47:45,020 --> 00:47:47,420
be I'm assuming maybe

2206
00:47:47,420 --> 00:47:48,380
Ansi will have a talk

2207
00:47:48,380 --> 00:47:49,220
himself but there'll be

2208
00:47:49,220 --> 00:47:50,220
people talking about all

2209
00:47:50,220 --> 00:47:51,420
this the the point the

2210
00:47:51,420 --> 00:47:52,860
points in the the circle

2211
00:47:52,860 --> 00:47:54,240
of software you know and

2212
00:47:54,240 --> 00:47:54,860
we talked about it

2213
00:47:54,860 --> 00:47:55,680
several times you're both

2214
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:57,940
low low down on the the

2215
00:47:57,940 --> 00:47:59,240
coding side all the way

2216
00:47:59,240 --> 00:48:01,500
up to I don't know I

2217
00:48:01,500 --> 00:48:02,060
don't know what else to

2218
00:48:02,060 --> 00:48:02,640
say other than the

2219
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:03,700
business on the business

2220
00:48:03,700 --> 00:48:05,100
side and there's there's

2221
00:48:05,100 --> 00:48:05,760
there's some good

2222
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:06,680
tracks that'll be

2223
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:07,300
useful to see how

2224
00:48:07,300 --> 00:48:08,240
people are solving these

2225
00:48:08,240 --> 00:48:09,860
issues so again that's

2226
00:48:09,860 --> 00:48:11,300
that's next week and I

2227
00:48:11,300 --> 00:48:11,760
think if you go to

2228
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:12,620
SpringOne platform

2229
00:48:12,620 --> 00:48:14,020
dot io you can read the

2230
00:48:14,020 --> 00:48:15,040
full agenda we've got

2231
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:15,740
everything you can even

2232
00:48:15,740 --> 00:48:16,780
book your sessions now

2233
00:48:16,780 --> 00:48:17,920
to with the scheduler so

2234
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:18,980
get in there oh I

2235
00:48:18,980 --> 00:48:19,580
should go check that

2236
00:48:19,580 --> 00:48:21,100
out and I'll put a link

2237
00:48:21,100 --> 00:48:21,720
to this in the show

2238
00:48:21,720 --> 00:48:22,480
notes but you can use

2239
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:23,820
the code Pivotal hyphen

2240
00:48:23,820 --> 00:48:25,560
Coté hyphen 300 if you

2241
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:26,500
haven't registered already

2242
00:48:26,500 --> 00:48:28,460
to get $300 off and

2243
00:48:28,460 --> 00:48:29,860
then you can like you

2244
00:48:29,860 --> 00:48:31,260
know buy me a croissant

2245
00:48:31,260 --> 00:48:33,000
or something as and with

2246
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:34,460
that extra $300 that you

2247
00:48:34,460 --> 00:48:35,600
have or some Vegas

2248
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:37,200
servanter for $3 oh

2249
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:39,380
that sounds lovely we'll

2250
00:48:39,380 --> 00:48:40,560
go to one of those bars

2251
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:41,440
that's attached to a

2252
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:42,660
liquor store just really

2253
00:48:42,660 --> 00:48:44,380
class it up that'll be

2254
00:48:44,380 --> 00:48:46,020
good times so as always

2255
00:48:46,020 --> 00:48:46,840
this has been Pivotal

2256
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:47,840
conversations you can

2257
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:49,260
find us in soundcloud at

2258
00:48:49,260 --> 00:48:50,760
soundcloud.com slash

2259
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:52,240
Pivotal conversations or

2260
00:48:52,240 --> 00:48:54,160
itunes or any place

2261
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:54,960
where you can search for

2262
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:56,660
podcast I think we're

2263
00:48:56,660 --> 00:48:57,500
even in the google play

2264
00:48:57,500 --> 00:48:58,480
store now and you can

2265
00:48:58,480 --> 00:48:59,840
also go to pivotal.io

2266
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:01,420
slash podcast to find

2267
00:49:01,420 --> 00:49:02,440
the show notes for this

2268
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:04,040
and if if you get the

2269
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:04,920
chance it would be great

2270
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:05,600
if you went into

2271
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:07,500
itunes and and left a

2272
00:49:07,500 --> 00:49:09,220
rating for this or or a

2273
00:49:09,220 --> 00:49:10,960
review or if you just

2274
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:11,880
recommend it to people

2275
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:12,580
who you think it might

2276
00:49:12,580 --> 00:49:13,640
be useful for it that's

2277
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:14,460
that's always helpful to

2278
00:49:14,460 --> 00:49:15,320
get the word out because

2279
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:16,280
the more people we have

2280
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:17,940
listening the the more

2281
00:49:17,940 --> 00:49:19,500
happy it makes us which

2282
00:49:19,500 --> 00:49:20,660
really what else do you

2283
00:49:20,660 --> 00:49:21,800
want than that that's

2284
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:23,020
what we need so with

2285
00:49:23,020 --> 00:49:24,240
that as always thanks for

2286
00:49:24,240 --> 00:49:25,160
listening and we'll see

2287
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:26,020
everyone next time