1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,580 Well, we've hit our third episode, so that means we have Stanima. 2 00:00:05,020 --> 00:00:06,060 It's actually going to happen. 3 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:08,380 I think the next benchmark is episode seven. 4 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:12,720 Then you have episode 10, and from there, it's just pure glory, 5 00:00:12,980 --> 00:00:16,040 just like chariots and roses being thrown in front of you. 6 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:19,300 We've proven we can commit. 7 00:00:19,580 --> 00:00:20,080 That's right. 8 00:00:20,500 --> 00:00:21,480 We've figured it out. 9 00:00:21,980 --> 00:00:28,600 I've been moving the old podcast stuff to have a little administrative meta talk here 10 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:31,160 from Libsyn to SoundCloud. 11 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:36,140 Man, it's just, you know, sometimes I wish I could get software developers 12 00:00:36,140 --> 00:00:40,160 and be like, hey, you should start being a user of the thing you're writing 13 00:00:40,160 --> 00:00:41,660 and do that. 14 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:44,660 I mean, you know, to be fair, SoundCloud's right for musicians. 15 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:49,080 But I think they have enough of a podcast audience that they've got like 16 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:50,960 RSS feeds and stuff like that. 17 00:00:51,060 --> 00:00:55,920 But one would think that if you wanted to have customer acquisition, 18 00:00:55,920 --> 00:01:00,900 you would find maybe like the top 10 or top five other podcast hosting companies 19 00:01:00,900 --> 00:01:05,940 and say, why don't you give us your RSS feed and we'll import all your stuff? 20 00:01:06,540 --> 00:01:07,280 No, no, no. 21 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:08,680 Of course they don't do that. 22 00:01:08,980 --> 00:01:13,360 That's, you know, between WordPress and Tumblr and Squarespace over in blog land, 23 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:14,560 they're all pretty good about that. 24 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,640 But, you know, podcast land, not so much. 25 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:21,640 Like we talked about last week, lock in and migration is a thing. 26 00:01:21,860 --> 00:01:22,300 That's right. 27 00:01:22,300 --> 00:01:22,680 That's tough. 28 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:23,320 That's right. 29 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:25,320 There's a regular first world problems there. 30 00:01:26,220 --> 00:01:30,020 But anyways, it is always fun to also see the stats, 31 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,720 how they're differently done between the two hosting things. 32 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:38,180 But the whole point of that, other than me just having something to talk about, 33 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:40,620 is we've got this stuff hosted in SoundCloud, 34 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:42,900 which really shouldn't affect you that much at all. 35 00:01:43,020 --> 00:01:45,660 It's got more interesting visual stuff, if you like that. 36 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:51,280 But also, I finally, don't tell anyone, but I never actually added this podcast to iTunes. 37 00:01:51,660 --> 00:01:55,000 So I added this one, Pivotal Conversations to iTunes. 38 00:01:55,120 --> 00:02:00,640 We have like the catch-all thing for Pivotal Podcasts and iTunes that has every podcast that we do, 39 00:02:01,140 --> 00:02:02,680 but not an individual one for this. 40 00:02:02,780 --> 00:02:05,920 So now you can subscribe to just this if you really want to. 41 00:02:06,180 --> 00:02:07,760 It's a glorious day. 42 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,120 So what have you been doing this past week? 43 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:11,680 That's right. 44 00:02:11,940 --> 00:02:13,780 The world breathed a collective sigh of relief. 45 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:14,500 That's right. 46 00:02:14,940 --> 00:02:18,040 Yeah, luckily I was in the San Francisco office last week, 47 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,360 so it was fun to hang out with my folks. 48 00:02:20,500 --> 00:02:22,380 And the common question is always, what are you doing here? 49 00:02:22,700 --> 00:02:23,660 Which makes me feel welcome. 50 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:28,380 So we've got some time with, watched some customer briefings. 51 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,500 We had Forrester in for half a day talking about our space 52 00:02:31,500 --> 00:02:34,580 and trying to learn a little bit and just listen a little more than talk. 53 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:39,340 So good chance to get a little refresher on what our real positioning is 54 00:02:39,340 --> 00:02:42,660 and how we help our customers best by trying to define a very muddled space. 55 00:02:43,380 --> 00:02:43,780 Indeed. 56 00:02:43,780 --> 00:02:43,980 Indeed. 57 00:02:44,460 --> 00:02:49,300 Well, this morning there was big news that Microsoft is buying LinkedIn, 58 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,700 which is just so strange that it's worth talking about. 59 00:02:54,180 --> 00:02:57,600 I mean, I would have never thought about those two hooking up with each other. 60 00:02:58,500 --> 00:03:01,140 No, I mean, I guess they endorsed them for large acquisitions. 61 00:03:01,340 --> 00:03:01,680 I don't know. 62 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:04,640 There's a million dumb LinkedIn jokes going around. 63 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:05,080 I know. 64 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:05,720 It's terrible. 65 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,360 I didn't involve Clippy, which at least upgrades this conversation a little bit. 66 00:03:10,820 --> 00:03:13,640 But no, I mean, they've obviously flirted with Salesforce in the past. 67 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:15,880 You know, there's all kinds of different talk about this. 68 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:18,140 Twitter get acquired by someone like this at this point. 69 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,720 So, yeah, I don't know if LinkedIn was on the radar for that stuff. 70 00:03:20,820 --> 00:03:25,640 But if you take a deep breath and look at it, ignoring how much they paid, there is probably 71 00:03:25,640 --> 00:03:28,240 an interesting play with what they do with Office 365. 72 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:30,580 They highlighted a lot with Dynamics. 73 00:03:30,980 --> 00:03:35,780 So when you're trying to, you know, do real CRM and have links to a very impressive social 74 00:03:35,780 --> 00:03:39,220 graph and LinkedIn, that's interesting stuff. 75 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:40,780 Now, are you going to monetize that additionally? 76 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:42,160 Or does that just make you stickier? 77 00:03:42,300 --> 00:03:44,020 I guess that's what we'll have to find out. 78 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:45,320 Yeah. 79 00:03:45,420 --> 00:03:53,340 I mean, as you're alluding to, having worked in M&A a little bit in the past, as Coté podcast 80 00:03:53,340 --> 00:03:59,140 bingo players will know, you know, it's always important to go read the official words that 81 00:03:59,140 --> 00:04:03,160 people say about this stuff, at least for what the deal rationale was. 82 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,620 Like, what happens like 12, 24, beyond months out? 83 00:04:06,900 --> 00:04:08,540 Like, who knows what's going to go on? 84 00:04:08,940 --> 00:04:13,700 But like you mentioned, the two things that were mentioned on the Microsoft side the most 85 00:04:13,700 --> 00:04:16,120 were basically Office and Dynamics. 86 00:04:16,180 --> 00:04:19,280 And Dynamics is, you know, I don't know if I've ever actually seen it, but it's like 87 00:04:19,280 --> 00:04:26,660 their CRM, small to medium business, back office product line, as I remember their Great 88 00:04:26,660 --> 00:04:28,420 Plains acquisition from long ago. 89 00:04:29,340 --> 00:04:31,420 No marketing, in terms of like, nobody knows it. 90 00:04:31,700 --> 00:04:32,400 Right, right. 91 00:04:32,840 --> 00:04:33,520 Good product. 92 00:04:33,860 --> 00:04:34,020 Yeah. 93 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:38,120 And, you know, so that's the first thing that sort of makes sense is essentially, 94 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:43,960 and this is all sort of like, as deal rationale usually is, or public deal rationale, happy 95 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:44,500 path thought. 96 00:04:44,840 --> 00:04:50,160 But like, you know, basically, if we assume that the, I forget however many million, but 97 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:55,200 that most of the white collar workers or a huge amount of the white collar workers you would 98 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,020 want to sell to are our users of Microsoft software. 99 00:04:58,020 --> 00:05:00,680 They're in LinkedIn, mildly active. 100 00:05:00,780 --> 00:05:06,000 I'm sure there's some, I don't know, medium chubby tail of activity or things like that, 101 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,020 but it's basically a huge channel that's kind of bi-directional. 102 00:05:09,180 --> 00:05:14,120 That is a group of people or eyeballs, as we used to call them, to sell stuff to. 103 00:05:14,500 --> 00:05:20,000 And, you know, you could sell more office and more dynamics and all of that sort of stuff. 104 00:05:20,140 --> 00:05:23,100 And, you know, sure, that makes sense. 105 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:29,940 There's a company here in Austin in the systems management space called Spiceworks that has 106 00:05:29,940 --> 00:05:32,020 a similar kind of channel business. 107 00:05:32,280 --> 00:05:39,060 Like, you look at it as a user and it's basically this free network management, systems management 108 00:05:39,060 --> 00:05:40,220 asset thing, right? 109 00:05:40,300 --> 00:05:44,480 Sysadmins use it to like scan their network and find everything that has an IP address and 110 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:48,500 check the overall health of it and then do some basic diagnostic stuff. 111 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:50,520 And it's like free. 112 00:05:50,700 --> 00:05:52,080 So you're like, how do they make money? 113 00:05:52,300 --> 00:05:54,500 And the way they make money is because it's free. 114 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:58,980 They have, I think it's pretty legitimate that they have millions of users of it. 115 00:05:59,180 --> 00:06:02,200 And that's like a channel that people would want to sell stuff to. 116 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,460 So vendors come up to them and sell stuff to them. 117 00:06:05,900 --> 00:06:08,600 And, you know, it's blatant banner advertising. 118 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:10,760 I mean, maybe we'll see this in Office. 119 00:06:10,900 --> 00:06:14,460 It would be interesting if there was a free version of Office 365 supported by, 120 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,220 ads or whatever, but, or maybe there is already. 121 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:18,760 Anyways, shows you what I know. 122 00:06:19,060 --> 00:06:24,700 But, you know, so there's banners for, you know, like, I don't know, backup your servers 123 00:06:24,700 --> 00:06:25,440 to the cloud. 124 00:06:25,660 --> 00:06:31,400 And then there's more clever things that Spiceworks has, like Intel has these plugins that they 125 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:36,040 somehow pay for that if you have their Intel chips and the servers you're monitoring, you 126 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:37,420 get this extra functionality. 127 00:06:37,420 --> 00:06:42,260 So, you know, whatever it is, their V pro or I don't even, I don't know what Intel has, 128 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:47,740 but, you know, you get this extra functionality, which is a little, well, it's a lot easier 129 00:06:47,740 --> 00:06:51,060 to wrap your hands around because you have detailed reportings, but it's sort of like, 130 00:06:51,100 --> 00:06:54,860 it makes your Intel customers want Intel more, hopefully. 131 00:06:55,340 --> 00:06:57,220 So anyways, all sorts. 132 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:01,460 And, and then the classic two examples are like, they know when you need to buy a new printer 133 00:07:01,460 --> 00:07:05,200 ink, so they can refer you to that and collect some, some payment. 134 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:09,300 And they know when the warranty on your servers is running out, so they could have you renew 135 00:07:09,300 --> 00:07:09,580 that. 136 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:15,280 So using that as a structure, I could see that you have the social network of LinkedIn 137 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:21,140 and there's all sorts of stuff you could sell to them that might be interesting, but, you 138 00:07:21,140 --> 00:07:21,820 know, who knows? 139 00:07:22,500 --> 00:07:22,800 Yeah. 140 00:07:22,820 --> 00:07:26,120 And don't forget some of the aqua hire part of this too, is, you know, they have a lot 141 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:27,520 of data scientists on staff. 142 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:29,460 They did all, they originated Kafka. 143 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:32,300 So they have a lot of very smart distributed systems people. 144 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,520 So clearly 26 billion is a lot to pay for people. 145 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,300 Clearly that's not what they were just buying, but you know, from all accounts. 146 00:07:39,300 --> 00:07:42,560 And if you read their engineering blog, LinkedIn does some pretty cool stuff. 147 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:44,700 So it's nice to pull that at the house. 148 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:45,300 Yeah. 149 00:07:45,380 --> 00:07:50,920 I've, I've, I've been collecting a lot of, uh, reasons or that you, you know, synergies 150 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:51,440 if you will. 151 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:53,660 And, and I, I do it for one of the other podcasts. 152 00:07:53,660 --> 00:07:56,500 I do software to find talk because I'm sure we'll talk about it then. 153 00:07:56,500 --> 00:08:02,580 But I, I listed out some raw notes in, in, uh, my, my semi-weekly, uh, newsletter that 154 00:08:02,580 --> 00:08:03,840 I said, I'll put a link to it here. 155 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:08,740 But yeah, I think, I think there's sort of like both of these companies have lots of cloud 156 00:08:08,740 --> 00:08:13,780 competence, competency, both at, well, I assume LinkedIn has it at the infrastructure layer, 157 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,580 but definitely at the SAS layer and infrastructure layer, uh, collectively. 158 00:08:17,580 --> 00:08:18,420 So that's nice. 159 00:08:18,580 --> 00:08:23,900 And yeah, I, I mean, it's, I think the other one that's worth mentioning is the idea of identity, 160 00:08:23,900 --> 00:08:30,620 which, which, um, as I was noting, uh, in my newsletter, like, I think for as long as I've 161 00:08:30,620 --> 00:08:34,440 been in the space where people talk about M and a back when I was an analyst and when I 162 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:39,100 was actually doing it, like everyone always kind of fantasizes about owning identity and 163 00:08:39,100 --> 00:08:41,060 it's never really panned out this. 164 00:08:41,220 --> 00:08:45,940 So, so the idea, for example, of many years ago, one of the potential threats was like, 165 00:08:45,980 --> 00:08:49,360 Oh my God, Salesforce, they control all these identities. 166 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:53,480 So they could be like your active directory in the cloud or something like that. 167 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:57,140 And, you know, that's interesting to think about. 168 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:01,820 I mean, there's things like, if you look at the, um, built-in accounts you can have in, 169 00:09:01,940 --> 00:09:07,660 as we call it now, Mac OS and iOS, like LinkedIn is one of them along with like Facebook and 170 00:09:07,660 --> 00:09:11,740 mysteriously Vimeo and Flickr and other things like that. 171 00:09:11,820 --> 00:09:14,620 But so it's, it's, it's a way of logging into things. 172 00:09:14,620 --> 00:09:19,980 And then, but what, what makes it more credible to think about is that, well, Microsoft owns 173 00:09:19,980 --> 00:09:24,980 active directory, which is more or less the king of identity in the business space. 174 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,660 So I don't know, that could be something. 175 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:28,680 Yeah. 176 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:29,340 No, no. 177 00:09:29,380 --> 00:09:29,820 Very interesting. 178 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:33,920 I know it's, it's easy to go look at the number and say, they paid a 50% premium and all this 179 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:34,480 kind of stuff. 180 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:35,000 But you know what? 181 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:37,480 Microsoft had a ton of cash sitting around, not doing anything. 182 00:09:37,620 --> 00:09:38,020 Yeah. 183 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:40,480 At some point, maybe it's worth investing it on some flyers. 184 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:41,160 Yeah. 185 00:09:41,340 --> 00:09:44,160 And no, I like, I like the way you, uh, you started off. 186 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:50,580 It's like, well, putting aside if they overpaid or not, cause that's, that's, uh, making that 187 00:09:50,580 --> 00:09:54,580 judgment always takes a lot more than the, uh, the time you have for all these little hot 188 00:09:54,580 --> 00:09:55,340 takes about it. 189 00:09:55,340 --> 00:10:00,260 Like you've got to put together a model and figure out revenue and IRR and like all this 190 00:10:00,260 --> 00:10:03,280 stuff that really becomes like, cause it was like, what was it? 191 00:10:03,300 --> 00:10:05,420 Like 26, 24 billion or something. 192 00:10:05,420 --> 00:10:08,540 I mean, that is, I don't even understand numbers that big. 193 00:10:08,860 --> 00:10:10,960 That's no, it's not digging through the couch money or anything. 194 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:11,840 No, it's legit. 195 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,240 That's, it's one of those big couches. 196 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:17,380 That's like in an L shape, not just, not just a love seat. 197 00:10:17,740 --> 00:10:18,400 That's right. 198 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:22,840 Anyways, it'll be interesting to see what, I mean, it still has to close and everything, 199 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:28,120 but, uh, I, I think, uh, you know, in addition to my genius raw notes about why it's good, 200 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:34,780 the, um, the, uh, the deal rationale PDF, which I mean is PR stuff, obviously since it's 201 00:10:34,780 --> 00:10:36,680 public, that's, it's actually a pretty good one. 202 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,580 And, and, uh, it's worth checking out if you're curious about this stuff. 203 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:40,120 Yeah. 204 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:40,740 I'll have to take a look. 205 00:10:41,260 --> 00:10:48,240 So also, uh, I, I, I think you, you sent over an article, uh, from our, our, our coworker, 206 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:52,200 uh, Peter is interviewed in it going over the recent release of spring. 207 00:10:52,340 --> 00:10:56,560 And, uh, you pulled out one of the things that we pay close attention to that is that there's 208 00:10:56,560 --> 00:10:59,000 like 4 million downloads a month of spring boot. 209 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:04,480 And this is, this is a point that, that we like to make a lot is, you know, in, in the 210 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,660 cloud native space, this is one of the major ways that people, one of the major components 211 00:11:08,660 --> 00:11:14,000 people are using to, uh, basically start off and package and manage their Java applications 212 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,800 and, and maybe other types of applications that they're doing. 213 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:21,800 But there's a huge amount of momentum by download around that, which, which is, uh, an 214 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:22,680 interesting one to track. 215 00:11:22,680 --> 00:11:25,540 And so I w I would, you've been around here long enough. 216 00:11:25,940 --> 00:11:29,420 I was curious to hear your explanation of what spring boot is. 217 00:11:29,540 --> 00:11:33,960 Cause it's always, everyone always has a new, uh, I remember when Josh long demoed it to 218 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:38,360 me, like the first, I think the first week when I was on the job, I went out to that Howard 219 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:42,140 street office and he like, he captured me for like two hours and demoed stuff. 220 00:11:42,140 --> 00:11:47,340 And I mean, along with this thing called initializer is it's a pretty, pretty awesome little 221 00:11:47,340 --> 00:11:50,160 package, but I'm curious, what's your take on it? 222 00:11:51,340 --> 00:11:51,980 Yeah, yeah. 223 00:11:52,060 --> 00:11:55,920 I mean that 4 million plus is, I think it was 22% over the last month. 224 00:11:55,980 --> 00:11:59,200 So there's this weird hockey stick that's gone up from, I think it was a couple hundred 225 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,320 thousand this time two years ago to well over 4 million now. 226 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:08,140 So you're clearly seeing devs and teams realizing that spring is the way you build modern Java 227 00:12:08,140 --> 00:12:09,400 microservices like that. 228 00:12:09,540 --> 00:12:11,940 I think that is no longer under debate. 229 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:16,740 So with spring boot, it's about, I mean, from my understanding and I'm learning spring a bit 230 00:12:16,740 --> 00:12:19,540 myself now coming from a.net and JavaScript background. 231 00:12:19,540 --> 00:12:24,440 But, you know, when you look at spring boot, it's how do I value convention over configuration? 232 00:12:24,680 --> 00:12:26,200 I don't have all these XML files. 233 00:12:26,300 --> 00:12:27,560 I don't have all this stuff. 234 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:31,500 Instead, I have a very opinionated framework that says this is the way to do a lot of things. 235 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:36,980 And I can plug in using some smart dependency management of spring and boot to be able to do 236 00:12:36,980 --> 00:12:42,180 some really complex stuff super quick, whether it is all these Netflix OSS libraries and things like 237 00:12:42,180 --> 00:12:47,840 spring cloud or real config management, external config stores and things like that. 238 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,880 Really powerful stuff for quickly accelerating. 239 00:12:51,020 --> 00:12:55,160 It's not meant to either be kind of the just kick the tires, play school microservices. 240 00:12:55,160 --> 00:13:00,640 It's meant to be like this is the Kickstarter for your enterprise class service or your Internet 241 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:02,440 of Things service that's going to sit somewhere. 242 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:03,960 So it's not just starter kits. 243 00:13:04,060 --> 00:13:07,120 It's meant to be this gets you up and running with spring boot. 244 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:11,860 But the framework itself is clearly powerful enough and scaled well enough to run. 245 00:13:12,220 --> 00:13:15,720 Gosh, it seems like a heck of a lot of stuff when we listen to our customers on stage at 246 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,780 CF Summit or other places really powered on this. 247 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:23,000 So it feels like if you're using spring, as you mentioned, the initializer site is pretty 248 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:27,360 ridiculous and an awesome way of going in saying, I want a little of this, a little of that. 249 00:13:27,500 --> 00:13:29,400 I get down this starter thing. 250 00:13:29,460 --> 00:13:31,580 I open it up and now I just do business logic. 251 00:13:31,780 --> 00:13:34,100 I spend no time on boilerplate stuff. 252 00:13:34,620 --> 00:13:36,220 And that is really powerful stuff. 253 00:13:36,680 --> 00:13:36,780 Yeah. 254 00:13:36,900 --> 00:13:43,140 You know, the things I've liked about it that I've seen since I've been here is one is that 255 00:13:43,140 --> 00:13:48,040 initial selection and packaging and what I would call wiring together of all your stuff, 256 00:13:48,300 --> 00:13:52,560 which, which at least way back when, when I was a Java developer was not fun. 257 00:13:53,300 --> 00:13:57,340 It was probably spend days or hours or days just getting started. 258 00:13:57,860 --> 00:13:57,980 Yeah. 259 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:03,320 Just tracking down your dependencies and, and even beyond that, configuring all of your 260 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,920 various frameworks and libraries to work with each other. 261 00:14:06,020 --> 00:14:10,160 So, you know, that's one of the things that spring as, as a whole has always been good 262 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:17,400 at is I used to always think about spring as, uh, uh, they were like Java API and library 263 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,160 developers who cared about users. 264 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,320 Like all their stuff was like much better usability than the default. 265 00:14:22,660 --> 00:14:24,200 So, so that's nice as well. 266 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:29,460 And, and I think, I think one of the, uh, enterprise, if you will uses that I think is 267 00:14:29,460 --> 00:14:29,860 interesting. 268 00:14:29,860 --> 00:14:35,340 And I think it was Kroger who talked about this a little bit at the last year CF summit 269 00:14:35,340 --> 00:14:41,100 is that when you set up an internal version of initializer and spring boot, that you can 270 00:14:41,100 --> 00:14:46,640 basically use it as a point of governance, which sounds awful to some people, but it's 271 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:50,940 basically a way of controlling and tracking what various people inside your company are 272 00:14:50,940 --> 00:14:51,300 using. 273 00:14:51,300 --> 00:14:55,560 And I, and I think long-term, even medium term, like that has a tremendous amount of 274 00:14:55,560 --> 00:15:00,360 benefits rather than, uh, as our butter and as our buddy, Andrew Schaefer would say, rather 275 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:05,360 than YOLO governance, like it's a, it's a lot more control of over what companies are 276 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:10,440 using, which, uh, is, is, I think that's a lot, uh, a large part of what we see Pivotal 277 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:11,940 customers using it for. 278 00:15:11,940 --> 00:15:17,040 And, and it's, it's, it's a good, again, like you can think of all these negative phrases 279 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:22,000 like choke point or gateways or something, but it's, it's more of a governance opportunity 280 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:26,900 that, that you can, I mean, there's, you know, it doesn't feel like dependency management and 281 00:15:26,900 --> 00:15:31,080 dependency detection is going to be the problem for the next five or 10 years as we now scale 282 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:35,940 out to tons of microservices and look what NPM goes offline for no JS and then the internet 283 00:15:35,940 --> 00:15:39,920 goes down because you all of a sudden the register, I mean dependencies and management 284 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,820 and services and distributed systems, that is the problem we're now creating for ourselves. 285 00:15:43,820 --> 00:15:47,820 And maybe it's a good one because it means we're building scalable systems, but I can 286 00:15:47,820 --> 00:15:51,920 sympathize with a company that says, look, I want to know which boot modules I'm using. 287 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,060 I want to understand which third party services I'm using. 288 00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:57,940 So if I can, you know, if I'm doing circuit breakers, great. 289 00:15:58,020 --> 00:16:00,100 What am I preventing from cascading failure? 290 00:16:00,100 --> 00:16:02,780 I need a bigger picture for running my stuff. 291 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:07,220 So as much as I, you know, we all cringe and shudder at the term governance or management 292 00:16:07,220 --> 00:16:12,600 or registries, at the same time, I think as we keep doing more of these things with more 293 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:16,080 non-encapsulated dependencies, we're depending on more and more things. 294 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:16,860 I don't know. 295 00:16:16,900 --> 00:16:18,020 There's a necessary evil there. 296 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:19,880 Maybe we just haven't found the best solution yet. 297 00:16:20,220 --> 00:16:20,360 Yeah. 298 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:25,340 I think, I think maybe what we need to get to, and there's, there's some people in the 299 00:16:25,340 --> 00:16:29,600 Cloud Foundry community who are scurrying around with the YAML files on this is automating 300 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:34,220 governance, essentially that, that, I mean, it's good to have, it's good to know what you're 301 00:16:34,220 --> 00:16:39,780 running and, and how that happened, uh, because things break and, and you have to do stuff. 302 00:16:39,780 --> 00:16:44,540 And there's also like, you know, one of the, it's gotta, it's gotta be one of the, it's gotta 303 00:16:44,540 --> 00:16:52,020 be one of the top three or top five, uh, concerns of, of, of cloud native people. 304 00:16:52,020 --> 00:16:54,980 But basically like compliance and governance is a big deal. 305 00:16:55,540 --> 00:16:59,900 And so much of that, not all of it, but a lot of it is basically what we're talking about 306 00:16:59,900 --> 00:17:06,140 here, having an accounting of what's running and who authorized it and all this stuff. 307 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:10,220 And one of the major reasons why it's such a headache is because it's not automated. 308 00:17:10,220 --> 00:17:15,720 It's like, it's, it's almost, it's not an analog loophole, but it's an, it's like analog 309 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:21,300 leaking where there's almost this instance of governments where all of a sudden your, your 310 00:17:21,300 --> 00:17:23,620 software development goes into an email hole. 311 00:17:23,620 --> 00:17:25,760 It's like this, it's like terrible ETL. 312 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:30,400 It goes into this email hole and then it goes into the, the Microsoft office hole. 313 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:34,660 And somewhere in there, it probably goes through an analog hole and a bunch of meetings. 314 00:17:34,660 --> 00:17:39,540 And like, so instead of automating a whole bunch of cataloging of what's happening, people 315 00:17:39,540 --> 00:17:40,460 are doing it manually. 316 00:17:40,460 --> 00:17:41,720 And that's why it takes so long. 317 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:46,600 And also why it seems like such a waste because everyone kind of knows it's not accurate. 318 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,920 So the more, the more of these governance opportunities you have, the more you can 319 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:55,320 automate governance and hopefully keep doing things that are good ideas, but just speed 320 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:56,160 up doing it. 321 00:17:56,380 --> 00:18:01,280 So, uh, there's a rare sell for governance, pro governance movement. 322 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:02,060 That's right. 323 00:18:02,220 --> 00:18:06,340 Not noted down this time and place that we were selling governance as a good thing. 324 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:07,040 That's right. 325 00:18:07,580 --> 00:18:13,420 Well, you also, uh, you also noted that there's a, uh, migration service or competency over in 326 00:18:13,420 --> 00:18:14,420 AWS land. 327 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:15,540 What's going off with that? 328 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:16,160 Yeah. 329 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:20,640 Maybe think of it after last week, our discussion about, you know, again, refactoring and migration 330 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:21,400 and legacy. 331 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:26,540 And, you know, it was interesting to watch last week, Amazon spin up an actual competency 332 00:18:26,540 --> 00:18:28,820 program for their partners, for migration partners. 333 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:34,040 So, you know, who's good at doing some of the delivery things or consulting things or some 334 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:35,320 of the planning and architecture things. 335 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:42,060 Actually moving the bits from, you know, bit barn A to bit barn B, you know, so it's interesting 336 00:18:42,060 --> 00:18:46,320 to see them do a real discipline where these people have to be certified, prove they've done 337 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:47,080 this successfully. 338 00:18:47,540 --> 00:18:51,640 And you just wonder if, again, you're going to see that trend a little more as instead 339 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:56,540 of everyone trying to run their own platform, some of the smart niche offerings are for, 340 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:00,640 you know, let me help you get over there because that's not going to be dead business for decades, 341 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:01,160 isn't it? 342 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,940 I mean, as people move into these cloud platforms, companies are going to need help 343 00:19:04,940 --> 00:19:08,820 for years, either refactoring or designing or moving their legacy stuff. 344 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,540 So interesting to see Amazon again, realize it's not all born in the cloud. 345 00:19:12,660 --> 00:19:14,780 It's about things that are also going to move over there. 346 00:19:14,860 --> 00:19:19,360 Just like we talked about last week, that's maybe a good maturation point for cloud that 347 00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:21,480 it is for more than just the new hotness. 348 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:23,080 Yeah. 349 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:27,320 And looking through the, they categorize the type of partners they have, but there's a, there's 350 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:28,260 quite a few in there. 351 00:19:28,260 --> 00:19:30,600 It was interesting to read over there. 352 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:38,280 And, you know, it makes me think that, you know, I feel like the cloud conference scene 353 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:40,500 hasn't been too awesome for a long time. 354 00:19:40,580 --> 00:19:44,180 I mean, there's like our own conference, which of course is the most awesome. 355 00:19:44,380 --> 00:19:48,500 And then the Cloud Foundry Summit conference, and then there's like AWS. 356 00:19:48,700 --> 00:19:53,900 I mean, there's a lot of vendor driven conferences, but, and the O'Reilly ones are always pretty 357 00:19:53,900 --> 00:19:54,200 good. 358 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:57,860 Although those are all kind of starting to run together into the same conference that 359 00:19:57,860 --> 00:20:03,500 I've noticed agenda wise recently, but casting aspersions or whatever that word is, dispersions 360 00:20:03,500 --> 00:20:10,680 aside, like it seems like a good use of cloud conferences would be like migrating to the 361 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:11,800 cloud types of things. 362 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:17,600 Cause just the generic like cloud conferences, it's just like, Hey cloud is like not really 363 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:22,940 too interesting now, but I think there is there's, I mean, we see it and I think other, everyone 364 00:20:22,940 --> 00:20:23,620 else sees it. 365 00:20:23,660 --> 00:20:27,860 And obviously Amazon does, there's enough interest in just like, how do I migrate my stuff that 366 00:20:27,860 --> 00:20:32,220 that would actually be a, uh, very interesting targeted cloud conference. 367 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:33,360 And there you go. 368 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:35,760 Conference organizers take note, but I think you're right. 369 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:39,820 It's something that's again, not a super sexy topic, especially in this modern world as I 370 00:20:39,820 --> 00:20:43,100 know we're going to talk in a few moments about, you know, paths and containers and whatever, 371 00:20:43,100 --> 00:20:48,260 but you know, in reality, sheesh, now that we've proven cloud is a good model, we've gotten 372 00:20:48,260 --> 00:20:51,060 past that as they, you know, I don't know about this cloud thing. 373 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:51,820 All right. 374 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,720 So now we're getting into the actual interesting stuff of helping companies start using it, 375 00:20:56,180 --> 00:20:58,960 you know, and not just for their new stuff that's 10 projects a year. 376 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,440 I went to 3000 apps sitting in their data center. 377 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:02,180 Yeah. 378 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:07,660 I mean, I mean this, I always think of this point of conferences because I remember the, 379 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:13,760 the last time I went to a service now conference, which is a, uh, as exciting as this sounds 380 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:18,780 hosted service, like a SAS service desk company that would like to be, you know, basically a 381 00:21:18,780 --> 00:21:23,200 case management company for everything, including driver's license renewals and stuff like that. 382 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:28,680 But most of their money is in poaching away like remedy and, and other like service desk, 383 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:34,080 uh, customers anyways, uh, and doing what we used to call ITSM. 384 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,300 I barely even remember what that stands for. 385 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:38,700 It's IT service management, isn't it? 386 00:21:38,900 --> 00:21:39,240 Indeed. 387 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:43,240 Along, along with another favorite BSM business service management. 388 00:21:44,100 --> 00:21:44,660 Lovely. 389 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:45,160 Yeah. 390 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:53,840 So, uh, uh, you know, what was, this is probably two or three years ago now, but what was interesting 391 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:59,100 about the, their conference was a huge amount of the people who are on the show floor were 392 00:21:59,100 --> 00:22:00,060 system integrators. 393 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:05,400 And it was exactly, it was a very specific instance of what we're talking about here, where 394 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:11,540 they were migrating from their on-premise service desk to the service now SAS service desk. 395 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:17,400 And as you can imagine, there's a lot of customization in that with all your rules and logic and just 396 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,140 the hard work of moving all that work. 397 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:23,740 So there were, I remember having drinks with several of the SIs, the system integrators 398 00:22:23,740 --> 00:22:24,080 afterwards. 399 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,100 And they were like, I just bought a new boat. 400 00:22:26,340 --> 00:22:30,460 Like they, like they were all, they were making, that industry was making so much money that 401 00:22:30,460 --> 00:22:33,920 personally people were just, you know, they had piles of cash they needed to burn. 402 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:38,780 Like some kind of Miami vice stash where they're, uh, just going into warehouses. 403 00:22:39,060 --> 00:22:40,220 Of course it was all legal. 404 00:22:40,220 --> 00:22:44,760 There was, and they were probably all wearing socks as well, but it was just a, it was a 405 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:45,420 booming business. 406 00:22:45,420 --> 00:22:50,440 And I imagine there's a similar booming business for SIs who are just in this space and have 407 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:56,660 the competency and have figured out not only like the advertising, but how to, how to, uh, 408 00:22:56,660 --> 00:22:59,340 do SI work in a lean way that's profitable. 409 00:22:59,340 --> 00:23:05,520 And, you know, I'm sure their margins are like five, 10, 15% like bad by software margins, 410 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,500 but that's pretty good work. 411 00:23:07,700 --> 00:23:09,820 If you can, uh, line up a high volume of it. 412 00:23:10,500 --> 00:23:10,580 Right. 413 00:23:11,100 --> 00:23:11,460 Right. 414 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:13,880 So good. 415 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:20,360 Well, this week, uh, I think, I think it was published last week, but, um, one of my, uh, 416 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:25,800 long ago, former bosses, Stephen O'Grady at Redmonk, he wrote a, a pretty short piece 417 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:30,060 on, uh, basically what does PaaS mean platform as a service. 418 00:23:30,780 --> 00:23:34,860 And, uh, I thought, I thought that would be a good little, uh, topic for us to have in 419 00:23:34,860 --> 00:23:36,600 our, uh, discussion section here. 420 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:41,060 Cause it is, it's, it's another, it's an, I've noticed this is another ritualistic Pivotal 421 00:23:41,060 --> 00:23:44,280 hazing thing, which is like, oh, it's the new person. 422 00:23:44,420 --> 00:23:46,520 Have them say what they think PaaS is. 423 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:49,160 So you can, you can just totally screw with them. 424 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:55,600 And, and, and I, and I think, I think, uh, and so, you know, you know, more, more seriously, 425 00:23:55,600 --> 00:24:00,440 it is, it is always interesting every few months to contemplate what, uh, what we do with this 426 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:07,500 word because to, to summarize, uh, Stephen's post, which I think, I think hit upon, uh, oddly 427 00:24:07,500 --> 00:24:12,100 enough, he doesn't actually reference the NIST definition, which, which I think is, uh, their, 428 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:13,060 their stuff is pretty good. 429 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,600 I haven't read that in a while, but I remember the write-ups being well. 430 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,740 And as I always like to point out, whatever happened to community cloud, that would have 431 00:24:19,740 --> 00:24:20,160 been fun. 432 00:24:20,500 --> 00:24:26,680 But, uh, like he, to summarize his stuff, I think hopefully fairly, basically PaaS was a 433 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:31,800 term that kind of evolved out of, uh, Salesforce and probably some other people at the time 434 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:36,120 trying to figure out what to call their, as I would call it, their plugin mechanism. 435 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,700 So Salesforce, the CRM system was out there and you could go in and like write and deploy 436 00:24:40,700 --> 00:24:44,540 code that customized it as you would need with any CRM or ERP system. 437 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,460 And so they had, uh, what do they call that? 438 00:24:47,700 --> 00:24:53,740 Uh, they, they had some variant of Java that, uh, you could write stuff in and then you would 439 00:24:53,740 --> 00:24:54,200 have access. 440 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:54,940 Yeah. 441 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:55,400 Apex. 442 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:56,000 There you go. 443 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,800 And you, and you would basically, you could just extend their platform. 444 00:25:00,340 --> 00:25:03,480 And then at that time, I think there were all sorts of other people who were kind of 445 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:09,340 like, it was a mixture of kind of like the, uh, the limping people from the ASP era who 446 00:25:09,340 --> 00:25:10,420 were letting you do stuff. 447 00:25:10,420 --> 00:25:12,000 And then there was also like jigsaw. 448 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:13,140 There was all of these things. 449 00:25:13,260 --> 00:25:17,820 There was a whole other bent that was like the wiki companies that had kind of expanded 450 00:25:17,820 --> 00:25:20,520 into like the pseudo Lotus note companies. 451 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:26,300 Like all this stuff that I think of as kind of like, uh, beyond FileMaker and Fox Pro, like 452 00:25:26,300 --> 00:25:28,580 your rapid application development stuff on the web. 453 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:29,180 Yep. 454 00:25:29,340 --> 00:25:34,560 And, and, and that kind of got mushed together with some of the very early thoughts, I think 455 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:41,440 of, of what the next era was, which was, let's call it kind of like the Heroku early Google 456 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:46,860 app engine era, which was a little bit more like programmer friendly. 457 00:25:46,860 --> 00:25:53,180 And it was, it was something, it was something beyond go to a host Gator and like buy your 458 00:25:53,180 --> 00:25:55,680 own servers and install a lamp stack on it. 459 00:25:55,680 --> 00:26:00,920 Like, you know, and, and, you know, what, what you would see in this era was a fair amount 460 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:07,360 of, of what you see as a developer with Cloud Foundry and, and contemporary passes, if you 461 00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:07,640 will. 462 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:13,760 Uh, which was, uh, you basically write your application and you give it over to the thing. 463 00:26:14,220 --> 00:26:18,180 Let's, we'll just say paths and it figures out how to run it and does everything for you 464 00:26:18,180 --> 00:26:22,080 and auto scales, which is still something people are always fascinated with. 465 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,940 And it's kind of like a, uh, a thing about paths. 466 00:26:25,500 --> 00:26:30,780 And I think at this point in, in, uh, in, in O'Grady's writeup or Steven's writeup, what's 467 00:26:30,780 --> 00:26:36,380 interesting is that he's like, so it was basically what we call serverless nowadays, which I think 468 00:26:36,380 --> 00:26:41,300 is kind of legit, like this, the same, the same goals people were going after. 469 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:46,340 And then, and then sometime, like, I remember when I read this writeup in Wired about the 470 00:26:46,340 --> 00:26:51,420 original team at VMware that had been, uh, uh, poached, I guess. 471 00:26:51,420 --> 00:26:55,440 I don't know if that's a dangerous word, but it had been hired from Google to basically come 472 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,420 into VMware and be in a garage. 473 00:26:57,620 --> 00:27:00,240 Like, I think Cade Metz wrote this up and there were pictures and everything. 474 00:27:00,540 --> 00:27:04,240 And they were basically going to work on a paths that became Cloud Foundry. 475 00:27:04,460 --> 00:27:09,840 And then, and then there was a strange era where paths was not a big deal for a while. 476 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:11,620 I don't really know what was happening. 477 00:27:11,620 --> 00:27:15,880 Then I think, I think everyone got up the way I always make up at this, this history is 478 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,180 everyone got obsessed with, with mobile basically. 479 00:27:18,180 --> 00:27:20,960 And no one really cared about, uh, infrastructure. 480 00:27:21,540 --> 00:27:27,920 And then, uh, and then starting maybe a couple of years ago, um, uh, like I remember this 481 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:32,340 is back when I was still an analyst and you had a whole bunch of small past vendors and 482 00:27:32,340 --> 00:27:33,220 Pivotal of course. 483 00:27:33,660 --> 00:27:40,040 And then eventually larger people like IBM and HP and then HP also bought Staccato, which 484 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:41,900 was, which was a Cloud Foundry thing. 485 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,820 All of a sudden, all of a sudden, all of these vendors are talking about paths all the time, 486 00:27:45,860 --> 00:27:48,620 except they don't call it paths, which is the point of his writeup. 487 00:27:48,700 --> 00:27:52,780 In fact, they almost have like, uh, something I'm all too familiar with at the moment. 488 00:27:52,780 --> 00:27:59,060 This like allergic reaction to, uh, to, to paths being around and, uh, they really don't 489 00:27:59,060 --> 00:28:00,140 want to use that term. 490 00:28:00,140 --> 00:28:06,180 And so people, including us will use terms like, uh, platform or cloud platform or cloud 491 00:28:06,180 --> 00:28:11,400 native or whatever there, there's even there's a, there's a writeup I'll put in the show notes 492 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,600 from, uh, Brian Graceley, who's over an analyst over at Wikibon. 493 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:19,400 And he makes a distinction between a structured and unstructured platform, which, which I think 494 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:19,860 is nice. 495 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,560 So that's pretty much the layup. 496 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:27,300 And then also Docker is in there as well as, as a way of doing things, but you know, there's 497 00:28:27,300 --> 00:28:33,100 really no major conclusions, uh, that, that Steven comes to, but it's a good kind of very 498 00:28:33,100 --> 00:28:37,360 pithy rounding up of like, so what do we call this thing essentially? 499 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:39,000 Yeah. 500 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,460 I mean, that's a good history lesson. 501 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,340 I mean, I would just argue, I guess paths was too early for itself. 502 00:28:45,580 --> 00:28:50,880 You know, the early NIST days of IaaS and paths and SaaS is fit beautifully into a slide 503 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:55,900 presentation, but you had people who were just maybe finished virtualizing their data center. 504 00:28:56,060 --> 00:28:58,820 They were starting to look at cloud and kind of giving everything up. 505 00:28:58,860 --> 00:29:03,160 Cause this member, I mean, as you described those early gen PaaSs were super constraining 506 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:08,380 on purpose, but you know, you could deploy two languages to Google app engine or Heroku. 507 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,140 You could only run these in their data centers. 508 00:29:11,140 --> 00:29:16,040 You had to have almost a, you know, it's a, no, it's joke about the sort of app engine. 509 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,900 It had to be very aware of its environment in order to run successfully. 510 00:29:18,900 --> 00:29:23,480 So it was a very much an extreme lock-in and it was such a step so far for someone who's 511 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:24,620 just starting to get into cloud. 512 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,240 So fantastic model. 513 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:30,200 And then, you know, Microsoft came out with their stuff, but then in 2012, you had, I 514 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:34,880 think within a month of each other, Google and Microsoft announcing an IaaS layer saying 515 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:36,660 like, Hey, we were probably too early with PaaS. 516 00:29:36,940 --> 00:29:39,620 So now let's actually make real money by offering infrastructure. 517 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,960 And so I think, as you said, you know, there was that lull there where I think it was either 518 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,660 mobile or people were kind of just figuring out infrastructure. 519 00:29:46,660 --> 00:29:51,360 And then, you know, as infrastructure became more and more automated and it became easier 520 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,720 to get all of it, then all of a sudden, I think it returned this idea to how do I treat 521 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:57,060 infrastructure super stupid? 522 00:29:57,060 --> 00:29:58,000 Cause it doesn't matter. 523 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,420 I just want to build up using config management, Terraform. 524 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,800 I just want to build stuff with no humans involved and deploy my apps. 525 00:30:04,980 --> 00:30:07,960 And almost, I think it gave you a second look back to shoot. 526 00:30:08,020 --> 00:30:09,040 Wasn't that what PaaS was? 527 00:30:09,500 --> 00:30:11,980 Like why am I building a PaaS? 528 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:13,240 They already have these things. 529 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:19,180 And by then, you know, go to 2014, 2015, when you did have projects like Cloud Foundry 530 00:30:19,180 --> 00:30:24,380 that had moved beyond that 2007 definition of PaaS where, you know, now it's open source. 531 00:30:24,580 --> 00:30:25,900 Now it can run on premises. 532 00:30:26,140 --> 00:30:29,980 It supports a half a dozen languages plus another dozen with other build packs. 533 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,020 It, you know, uses a number of great things under the covers that don't feel like it's 534 00:30:34,020 --> 00:30:34,600 a black box. 535 00:30:34,700 --> 00:30:39,740 So it was doing all these things, adding governance, adding ecosystem that if you were still stained 536 00:30:39,740 --> 00:30:43,700 with this definition from, you know, eight years ago, you thought, you know, PaaS is 537 00:30:43,700 --> 00:30:45,420 old and, and old and crusted. 538 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,540 I just want to use my new container platform. 539 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:52,320 You may, you may, you know, obviously just be jumping too far ahead and not realizing what's, 540 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:53,020 what's evolved. 541 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,060 So I think, you know, PaaS was early. 542 00:30:55,580 --> 00:30:58,980 I think it was a great model to talk about, but everyone just kind of nodded at it and 543 00:30:58,980 --> 00:31:01,900 patted it on the head, like the three-year-old at the Thanksgiving table. 544 00:31:02,300 --> 00:31:03,520 You're, you're, you're cool, PaaS. 545 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:05,200 Someday you'll be here with the big boys. 546 00:31:05,580 --> 00:31:07,560 And now I think it deserves to see it at the table. 547 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:12,220 Yeah, no, you're, you're, you're also, you're making me remember I left out Azure, right? 548 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,420 Like that was originally launched as a, uh, and you're probably even more familiar with 549 00:31:16,420 --> 00:31:21,120 that than I am, but it was originally launched as a big PaaS and it kind of just, I don't 550 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:21,340 know. 551 00:31:21,500 --> 00:31:22,100 I don't know what happened. 552 00:31:22,100 --> 00:31:23,320 They were fighting for use cases. 553 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:23,620 Yeah. 554 00:31:23,620 --> 00:31:26,280 I think it was one of these where like, Hey, you can run your website here. 555 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,340 I'm like, all right, well, how am I going to connect it to the rest of my stuff, which 556 00:31:29,340 --> 00:31:31,480 is sitting behind nine layers of firewalls. 557 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:36,440 So I got, it's really interesting, but it's, I can deploy like only my siloed, you know, 558 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:41,380 independent static website stuff or only my clouded sitting in the cloud stuff, which 559 00:31:41,380 --> 00:31:43,100 then wasn't a whole lot of stuff. 560 00:31:43,300 --> 00:31:43,700 Yeah. 561 00:31:43,860 --> 00:31:44,120 Yeah. 562 00:31:44,460 --> 00:31:45,500 Really interesting stuff. 563 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,000 And maybe now in this whole serverless thing where most of these serverless frameworks are 564 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,080 running in the cloud, it would make even more sense. 565 00:31:51,460 --> 00:31:55,820 So hopefully those things were precursors because they really got people into a mindset, which 566 00:31:55,820 --> 00:32:00,500 now feels commonplace, which felt super alien again, eight, 10 years ago. 567 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:00,860 Yeah. 568 00:32:00,940 --> 00:32:08,440 And I, I, I, I like the way you frame it up that, uh, that essentially despite good intentions 569 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:18,200 that we still have in the not PaaS, PaaS world, which is basically to make, uh, the act 570 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,420 of, of, of developing and then running an application easier. 571 00:32:21,900 --> 00:32:24,880 I mean, you know, there's all sorts of things, but it's sort of like, you shouldn't have to 572 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:26,780 worry about all this infrastructure stuff. 573 00:32:27,020 --> 00:32:30,000 You can just be able to focus on running, running your software. 574 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:36,060 Um, like we still all have that goal, but this, you know, what ended up, I think the, 575 00:32:36,060 --> 00:32:40,820 there's two things I think I remember that people used to think about PaaS, which, and 576 00:32:40,820 --> 00:32:43,460 maybe still do, which is what the problem is that it's too limiting. 577 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:45,260 Like there's, it's too limiting. 578 00:32:45,260 --> 00:32:48,160 And like we talked about last time, there's too much lock-in, right? 579 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,640 And like, well, what if, what if I want to do something it doesn't allow, right? 580 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:58,160 And, and this was the big discussion I remember way back when around Apex and, and Google app 581 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:05,320 engine is like, you know, it's, it's 95% Java, but what about that other 5%, right? 582 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:10,420 Like, like what if I need to use that other 5% or like call out to the file system or like 583 00:33:10,420 --> 00:33:10,880 all this stuff? 584 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:18,320 And, and that, uh, that kind of thinking, um, I think, I think somewhat rightly so always 585 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:19,700 turns off programmers, right? 586 00:33:19,700 --> 00:33:24,460 Like I, I was, I was driving around today and thinking like, well, if you have a situation 587 00:33:24,460 --> 00:33:29,180 that's like 99% accurate, then hopefully you don't have to do that thing a hundred times 588 00:33:29,180 --> 00:33:31,280 because it'll fail the hundredth time. 589 00:33:31,380 --> 00:33:34,920 I mean, you know, not exactly on the hundredth time, but you get the idea. 590 00:33:35,100 --> 00:33:38,960 And so, you know, when you have small, what seem like small percentages like that, if you're 591 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,040 doing it a lot, then there are issues that come up. 592 00:33:41,380 --> 00:33:43,440 So there is that idea of it being too limiting. 593 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:48,200 And, and then the other idea, and this would be in specific to Heroku is I remember all 594 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,020 my development friends at the time would be like, it's so expensive. 595 00:33:51,580 --> 00:33:56,260 Like I could just do it on my own and not have to worry about the expense of it, you know? 596 00:33:56,260 --> 00:34:01,020 And this is, you know, cause developers never really think about the long-term cost of something 597 00:34:01,020 --> 00:34:03,380 and, and they don't really do ROI stuff in their head. 598 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,180 They're kind of one-time payers for stuff. 599 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:12,400 Usually, I mean, I'm broadly generalizing there, but I, I think, I think, you know, both of those 600 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,400 issues have been addressed to a large extent, right? 601 00:34:14,420 --> 00:34:17,800 Like as you were going over, you were cataloging all the different ways you can run. 602 00:34:17,900 --> 00:34:21,960 One of the things you just mentioned there is, and, and, you know, like there's a huge 603 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,200 amount of flexibility that you have in passes, right? 604 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,660 You've got lots of languages supported in Cloud Foundry. 605 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:28,440 You can add in your own services. 606 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:33,100 Like we were just talking about spring boot earlier and like all the stuff that that has. 607 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:38,800 So there is an actual, uh, broader array of functionality nowadays that you have. 608 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:44,320 And I think, I think there's a better understanding that the cost is actually like worth it, that 609 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:45,740 the ROI pans out. 610 00:34:45,820 --> 00:34:50,180 And you see that when it comes to the speed that you can achieve when you're doing things 611 00:34:50,180 --> 00:34:54,220 like the, the, the way that you figure out if it's too expensive or not, it's like, well, 612 00:34:54,260 --> 00:34:55,240 what are the alternatives? 613 00:34:55,460 --> 00:34:58,040 Like, how is it currently going for you essentially? 614 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:05,160 And, you know, it is very expensive currently and doesn't really like deliver on, on all these 615 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:05,840 great promises. 616 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:12,260 Whereas if, if you have a functional it system in place, it's cost is the least of your concerns 617 00:35:12,260 --> 00:35:13,740 or, uh, things you worry about. 618 00:35:14,700 --> 00:35:15,060 Yeah. 619 00:35:15,060 --> 00:35:17,440 I mean, you, you, you hit on like a few good things there. 620 00:35:17,500 --> 00:35:20,980 I think, you know, one thing we've, I've heard us talk about a little more, frankly, 621 00:35:21,020 --> 00:35:25,020 we needed to do even more of it is systems need to be opinionated, but extensible. 622 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:29,100 I mean, I think that there's this place where it says, look, just giving you a completely 623 00:35:29,100 --> 00:35:31,840 green field saying do whatever you want is too much. 624 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:33,340 It's this paradox of choice. 625 00:35:33,500 --> 00:35:36,220 You end up spending too much time just getting things figured out. 626 00:35:36,300 --> 00:35:40,000 So I want to opinionated helps, but then you want to, as you say, you want to cover that 627 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:40,600 5%. 628 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,280 You want to be able to do things that maybe still feel unholy to us, but we should be able 629 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:44,980 to support it. 630 00:35:45,380 --> 00:35:47,400 So there's, I think some mix of that. 631 00:35:47,460 --> 00:35:52,280 I think it all comes down to this whole conversation is there's terms, but the point is, I think 632 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:56,640 organizations are trying to ship faster and it's an agility thing. 633 00:35:56,700 --> 00:35:57,600 It's a speed thing. 634 00:35:57,700 --> 00:36:01,620 And so are you using the technology, whether we call it paths or cloud native or whatever 635 00:36:01,620 --> 00:36:06,940 we call it, are you taking on technologies or helping you do things faster, learn faster, 636 00:36:06,940 --> 00:36:10,300 fail faster, discover things faster, ship that, whatever it is. 637 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:15,460 That when we spent the day with Forrester last week, and one thing they mentioned is, you 638 00:36:15,460 --> 00:36:19,120 know, arguably companies like Pivotal and with Cloud Foundry, we're actually in the continuous 639 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,960 delivery market, not the cloud market. 640 00:36:22,240 --> 00:36:28,060 Like that's really what we do is help organizations ship software faster and better, like quality 641 00:36:28,060 --> 00:36:32,220 software faster, not just ship garbage faster, ship quality software faster. 642 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:33,720 That's the problem we're solving. 643 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,200 I think that's the problem most companies are trying to address. 644 00:36:36,780 --> 00:36:42,980 Yeah, I think that's an interesting framing and it's almost to be a super big picture again. 645 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:49,900 I think there's a lot of companies converging on that. 646 00:36:50,140 --> 00:36:53,700 Whether you want to, to use the old terms, as I always like doing, whether it's the software 647 00:36:53,700 --> 00:37:03,440 delivery lifecycle or development, SDLC or ALM or, you know, app dev or whatever, or CICD. 648 00:37:03,780 --> 00:37:08,700 Like there's a whole bunch of companies, like I think, I think HP just kind of, they came 649 00:37:08,700 --> 00:37:10,960 out with some new things that fit into that. 650 00:37:11,300 --> 00:37:17,260 And so it's, and, and companies like Chef have a, a CD product and we've got a, we've 651 00:37:17,260 --> 00:37:18,460 got one that we're working on. 652 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:26,240 Like everyone basically has lots of opinions already and has for a while and is either working 653 00:37:26,240 --> 00:37:31,000 on or has a product that's sort of like your delivery pipeline management thing. 654 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:35,020 And, and so, and, and I think that's a reaction to exactly what you were just saying that I 655 00:37:35,020 --> 00:37:39,840 guess that the, you guys were discussing with, uh, with the Forrester folks is like the problem 656 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,840 you're solving is like delivering and running software. 657 00:37:43,540 --> 00:37:45,600 So you should solve that problem. 658 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:50,700 Not just, not just worry about the servers or whatever, but like solve as much of that 659 00:37:50,700 --> 00:37:51,040 problem. 660 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,200 And, and the critical pot, the critical thing in there is the pipeline. 661 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,800 And so that's a important thing to pay attention to. 662 00:37:57,460 --> 00:37:57,900 Yeah. 663 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:03,140 And to be, you know, maybe even more provocative if I were channeling our own, uh, James Watters, 664 00:38:03,140 --> 00:38:08,260 who I watched him twice last week, mentioned both to customers and in this briefing, you 665 00:38:08,260 --> 00:38:13,300 know, his belief that opinionated configuration management will never unopinionated configuration 666 00:38:13,300 --> 00:38:14,380 management can never win. 667 00:38:14,380 --> 00:38:17,820 That all it ends up being is just a dialect question as he says it. 668 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:22,640 So chef puppet Ansible, you know, CF engine, these are just different ways of saying the 669 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:23,160 same thing. 670 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:28,440 And it's just this abstract kind of do whatever versus a Bosch or a Cloud Foundry, these systems 671 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,900 that are, this is how we think you build infrastructure. 672 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,840 This is a specific thing we're solving instead of you can do everything. 673 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:39,020 And even with awesome tools like Ansible, I still have to configure each app differently 674 00:38:39,020 --> 00:38:40,300 or each server environment. 675 00:38:40,300 --> 00:38:41,540 It's not right. 676 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:42,160 There's no opinion. 677 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,520 It's just a, a, a dialect question. 678 00:38:45,060 --> 00:38:49,420 So this idea of, I want to use platforms that give me a best way to ship things, lets me 679 00:38:49,420 --> 00:38:53,640 extend it when I need to, but gets me back into the business of shipping, interesting software, 680 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,120 not being great at patching and updating servers. 681 00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:56,860 Yeah. 682 00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:57,420 Yeah. 683 00:38:57,540 --> 00:39:01,760 I mean, I mean, it's almost like opinions are expensive, especially to maintain. 684 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:05,220 So, so be careful about having your own opinions too much. 685 00:39:05,380 --> 00:39:10,080 Like it's, it's, it's good to pull those together with everyone else and, uh, kind of go with 686 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,620 it and, you know, to, to use my favorite joke, right? 687 00:39:12,620 --> 00:39:17,940 Like a file system is an opinion and, uh, it's not cheap to make if your opinion differs 688 00:39:17,940 --> 00:39:19,940 from, you know, the way most people do it. 689 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:24,260 Although, you know, sometimes it's worth paying for, but not often. 690 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:30,320 Well, when Forrester's, you know, predicting that about 40% of it is actually automated today, 691 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:35,440 that, that means should I be spending my time trying to automate the last 60% or have something 692 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:36,360 that does it for me? 693 00:39:36,500 --> 00:39:40,420 And that, that's always going to be the age old build by question that, that never will 694 00:39:40,420 --> 00:39:41,060 be solved. 695 00:39:41,060 --> 00:39:45,480 But when you look at that thing, what's it going to take me to get to 50%, what's it going 696 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:51,060 to take me to get to 75, you know, a three-year project to, you know, do a container oriented 697 00:39:51,060 --> 00:39:54,200 data center with config management or an alternative. 698 00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,100 I think those are good questions to ask. 699 00:39:56,140 --> 00:40:00,120 And you may have a, you know, some shop may be totally set up to do something themselves 700 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,560 or they're close to that tipping point where they're doing it the way that makes sense 701 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:07,140 to them, but at the same time, I think we're seeing, that's why some of these large companies 702 00:40:07,140 --> 00:40:12,440 and mid-sized companies pick a platform because they don't want to work to move that next step. 703 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:15,000 They want to get in there and then start going back to shipping software. 704 00:40:16,100 --> 00:40:17,740 So, so what do you, what do you think we should say? 705 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:22,400 Do you think we should say cloud platform or PaaS or like what, uh, what, what word do 706 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:23,620 you, let me ask that a different way. 707 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:25,980 What word do you find yourself using by default? 708 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:28,000 Yeah. 709 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:31,160 You've all ruined me since I got here on cloud native to some extent. 710 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:36,140 And I, you know, but you know, the other thing that screws me up with PaaS and I don't want 711 00:40:36,140 --> 00:40:40,000 to throw our friends at Gardner under the bus, but you know, their taxonomy is 20 different 712 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:44,640 classifications of PaaS covering everything from mobile to like, I think machine learning 713 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:45,740 and key value store. 714 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,860 Like they've hyper segmented so much that it's meaningless. 715 00:40:49,380 --> 00:40:49,440 Yeah. 716 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:53,740 So that, that's part of the problem too, is a, everything somehow is a PaaS now, whether 717 00:40:53,740 --> 00:40:58,560 it's service now or Salesforce or Google app engine, somehow they're all PaaS, which is 718 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:01,580 seems insane because how, you know, what is that overlap? 719 00:41:01,820 --> 00:41:05,960 But in the, you know, this race to kind of classify things, we've put everything in the 720 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,800 PaaS bucket, meaning it's more or less made it meaningless. 721 00:41:09,060 --> 00:41:11,420 So it's not the fault of any one thing. 722 00:41:11,420 --> 00:41:15,180 It's just probably because there's a lot of these platformy things out there, but I think 723 00:41:15,180 --> 00:41:19,740 that's where these sort of cloud enabled platforms or microservices platforms are things 724 00:41:19,740 --> 00:41:23,700 that focus more on what am I putting on it versus just platform as a service. 725 00:41:23,740 --> 00:41:27,540 Sheesh, Uber has a platform, you know, where the heck do I classify that? 726 00:41:27,820 --> 00:41:28,100 Right, right. 727 00:41:28,340 --> 00:41:33,120 So I think I like pinning it a little more to the workload, which is where things like 728 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,700 cloud native or microservices have meaning, right? 729 00:41:35,720 --> 00:41:38,120 I can't overload that to my guidance for cloud native. 730 00:41:38,380 --> 00:41:41,720 We've also coalesced a little bit on microservices, even serverless. 731 00:41:42,300 --> 00:41:45,720 So hopefully we focus a little more on that instead of just PaaS. 732 00:41:45,860 --> 00:41:49,400 Instead, it's, it's, it's always, there've been platforms for, you know, at least my whole 733 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,140 career, if not before and yours as well. 734 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,440 I think now we're trying to be a little more specific on what type of platform it is. 735 00:41:55,820 --> 00:41:57,300 Yeah, no, I, I think that's fair. 736 00:41:57,340 --> 00:42:01,980 I mean, the other, the other, uh, constant annoyance for me and, and, uh, and some other 737 00:42:01,980 --> 00:42:06,260 people with it, with the Gartner categorization, it's usually only public PaaS or not. 738 00:42:06,260 --> 00:42:11,420 I think it's always public PaaS they do, which is, you know, given the amount of, uh, uh, I 739 00:42:11,420 --> 00:42:15,320 mean, to be a little biased ranting here, given the amount of private PaaS that we sell 740 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:19,760 is just sort of a little, uh, you know, little shruggy as it were, but, uh, yeah. 741 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,060 And the amount of public and private infrastructure, right? 742 00:42:22,060 --> 00:42:22,760 Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. 743 00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:26,380 It shows everyone's investing a ton in public and it's not stopping on private. 744 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:30,000 So whether we think it's dumb or silly, private cloud shouldn't exist. 745 00:42:30,100 --> 00:42:32,560 None of that matters because that's what customers are buying. 746 00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:32,960 Exactly. 747 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:35,520 And they're going to run private platforms on top of it. 748 00:42:35,900 --> 00:42:39,140 If the goal is to say, look, I don't care about the infrastructure. 749 00:42:39,140 --> 00:42:41,100 What is the point of running a private cloud? 750 00:42:41,100 --> 00:42:44,760 If you don't put a PaaS on it, you know, I would argue there's no point you should never 751 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:45,780 install a private cloud. 752 00:42:45,780 --> 00:42:50,380 If you don't put a platform on top of it, because otherwise all I've done is build up 753 00:42:50,380 --> 00:42:51,380 an infrastructure stack. 754 00:42:51,860 --> 00:42:51,940 Yeah. 755 00:42:52,060 --> 00:42:52,280 Yeah. 756 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,720 It's, it's as, as another bingo thing. 757 00:42:54,720 --> 00:42:58,560 Like I always think of that as the blinking cursor and I, and I would see people doing this 758 00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:03,200 with OpenStack a lot is they would, they would spend a year building a big IaaS and then 759 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,680 there's a blinking cursor and it's just like, we hope now the real work begins. 760 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:11,400 We need to actually do something with this and application centric platforms are where 761 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:11,880 it's at. 762 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:13,740 And it seems like the smart companies get that. 763 00:43:14,140 --> 00:43:14,280 Yeah. 764 00:43:14,420 --> 00:43:14,580 Yeah. 765 00:43:14,620 --> 00:43:14,740 No. 766 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:18,640 And so I think, uh, I'm, I've always, I've always been, I don't know if it's one of those 767 00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:23,080 people, maybe the only person who like always wishes we would all just keep saying PaaS 768 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:26,560 because I feel like it, it has meaning, but, but like, I don't know. 769 00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:30,860 I think, I think, uh, I think you and the continuing debate has kind of persuaded me that 770 00:43:30,860 --> 00:43:36,100 it's, it's, uh, it's not really that, that term has to at the very least be, uh, what's 771 00:43:36,100 --> 00:43:40,880 the word when you, uh, you, uh, send someone off to reform school, it's gotta be fixed up 772 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:45,820 and, and, and the, the public perception of it has to be changed before we can, before 773 00:43:45,820 --> 00:43:50,440 you can use it in a way that doesn't require a bunch of footnotes afterwards, so to speak 774 00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:52,900 to explain what type of PaaS, where it does. 775 00:43:52,900 --> 00:43:55,500 And, you know, it's a, it's a word like democracy. 776 00:43:55,500 --> 00:43:57,340 It's like, well, what kind of democracy? 777 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,160 I mean, maybe we're getting better in technology. 778 00:44:00,260 --> 00:44:04,400 It seems like people, you know, now DevOps is arguably watered down to nothing because now 779 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:06,900 it just means people like each other and somehow that's DevOps. 780 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:11,000 Like it's lost this whole spirit of like, no, you know, it's automation and it's continuous 781 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:12,440 delivery and it's integration. 782 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:13,740 And like, that's DevOps. 783 00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,480 Just the fact that you put people in a room together, you don't have DevOps. 784 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,120 So cloud kind of got watered down a little bit. 785 00:44:19,180 --> 00:44:19,880 DevOps almost. 786 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,380 I wonder if that's why there's such an argument over serverless right now, because they don't 787 00:44:23,380 --> 00:44:24,500 want to fall down that path. 788 00:44:24,620 --> 00:44:24,780 Yeah. 789 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,980 And maybe we're getting better at it saying, let's define things that actually mean something 790 00:44:28,980 --> 00:44:33,680 upfront and not wait for every marketer to jump on it and quickly rebrand their site 791 00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:36,080 with whatever the cool word is, even if they don't do it. 792 00:44:36,260 --> 00:44:36,480 Yeah. 793 00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:38,360 No, I, I think, I think that's probably fair. 794 00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,260 Well, before we wrap up, I just saw some late breaking news. 795 00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,620 There's also the big Apple conference going on. 796 00:44:44,020 --> 00:44:48,740 I haven't confirmed this, but apparently they will let you delete the default Apple apps 797 00:44:48,740 --> 00:44:52,600 off your phone now, which is just like, wow, that's amazing. 798 00:44:52,940 --> 00:44:55,380 So, so much productivity will be had. 799 00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:56,200 I want to. 800 00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:59,680 That is, uh, yeah, no, that's, that's game changing for, I'm sure, plenty of people. 801 00:45:00,740 --> 00:45:02,460 So, so there you go. 802 00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,840 They eventually listened to people and, uh, take things off of there. 803 00:45:05,860 --> 00:45:09,540 I can finally get rid of that tips and stocks application, which I never use. 804 00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:10,320 Awesome. 805 00:45:10,540 --> 00:45:11,580 So good times. 806 00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:15,320 Well, as always, uh, this has been Pivotal conversations. 807 00:45:15,740 --> 00:45:18,380 You can find, uh, the show notes that we've referenced. 808 00:45:18,380 --> 00:45:24,060 If you go to pivotal.io slash podcast, it'll, uh, show you where you can find them. 809 00:45:24,060 --> 00:45:27,620 There's a, there's a little fun picture of us and everything there you can click on. 810 00:45:27,740 --> 00:45:31,140 And also, like I mentioned earlier, we're in sound cloud and iTunes. 811 00:45:31,140 --> 00:45:34,160 If you just search for Pivotal conversations, I'm sure you'll find it. 812 00:45:34,240 --> 00:45:39,660 And if you have any feedback, you can send it to podcast at pivotal.io, or you can write 813 00:45:39,660 --> 00:45:41,860 to me at Coté in Twitter. 814 00:45:41,860 --> 00:45:43,420 And what's, what's your handle there? 815 00:45:46,220 --> 00:45:47,360 At rsirotor. 816 00:45:47,500 --> 00:45:52,500 And, uh, with that, you know, it's, it's always nice now that we're in iTunes, if you go in 817 00:45:52,500 --> 00:45:56,860 there and, uh, give us a star or a rate or a view, but what's really nice is if, if you 818 00:45:56,860 --> 00:46:00,660 recommend it to someone that you think would find it valuable or just write a little note 819 00:46:00,660 --> 00:46:03,300 to us to say that, uh, Hey, I'm here. 820 00:46:03,540 --> 00:46:05,060 You should keep doing this. 821 00:46:05,240 --> 00:46:10,280 That always, uh, helps, helps stroke at least my ego about things and makes me feel better 822 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:11,080 about myself. 823 00:46:11,420 --> 00:46:12,580 See everyone next time.