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Well, we're here for our second new format of the Pivotal podcast.

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Now, my first question for you.

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So are you a Markdown user?

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What do you do with the Markdown?

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Anything?

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I am a Markdown user.

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Yeah, I've used a couple of different things.

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I've gotten a little more used to the syntax.

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It's a nice way to format things.

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And what's your take on that?

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Like what's, you know, it's sort of like, I assume you know HTML too, right?

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So why don't you just write in HTML?

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What's going on there?

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I know at some point it's really, is it supposed to be machine readable or human?

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Can we pick a side?

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It seems like we keep navigating between things that people should glance over or things that,

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you know, web pages and processors can do.

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But, you know, yeah, you're right.

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At some point I know how to do a bold tag quicker in HTML than I have to look up the tag to do

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with Markdown.

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Yeah.

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You know, I think, I think what makes the Markdown seem a little weird is when you put links in

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there and there's the alternative format of like footnoting that, uh, I don't know.

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I don't really ever do that because then you got to keep track of the footnotes.

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I don't know, but it is, uh, yeah, yeah.

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I, I, I always wish I, I use Evernote for a lot of stuff and I always wish that had sort

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of like a, uh, not sort of like had exactly a Markdown thing.

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Cause then it would be the perfect note taking thing.

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Cause I just, I just don't trust the, it's not that I don't trust the WYSIWYG stuff.

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It's just, it's just not very portable.

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It's just weird.

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I don't know why it's inexplicable.

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I don't trust it.

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Yeah.

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I still haven't figured out my, uh, my workflow.

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I ended up writing it in the Google doc and then trying to save it and end up doing it

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all over again.

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And whatever CMS I'm posting and that's good, very inefficient.

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Well, it, I, I think, I think thankfully we operate in the infrastructure layer.

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So all these sort of like malaises of the application layer, not our problem.

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That's someone else's issue that they need to sort through.

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That's a, that hopefully someone will start working on that.

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So, so what, uh, what have you noticed going on this week?

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What, what's, what's caught your interest?

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Yeah, there's been a few things going on.

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It was interesting.

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Anytime you have, you know, breathless reporting of password breaches and go reset all your

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passwords everywhere, but there was that LinkedIn one and it was a, I think it was a data breach

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from 2012.

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So technically old, excuse me, old data, but you know, I think I saw Zuckerberg got, you

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know, his Twitter hacked, which he hasn't tweeted in four years, but he had reused the password

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between accounts and, but the LinkedIn stuff popped up and it's, I think the good reminder

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again, that it doesn't matter how hard you say it, people don't really rotate passwords

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very often.

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And I'll be darned if they don't love using the same password on site after site.

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So at some point you just have to assume that people will do those things and you put better

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things in place, whether that's two, you know, two factor security or something that says

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people will just behave this way.

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We have to figure out other ways to secure our systems.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I think, uh, you know, I, I try to use one of those, uh, random password generator

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things as much as possible, which, which works out well.

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And then you got the two factor authentication.

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That's nice.

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And I suppose having, uh, rotating passwords being like new passwords that you use, you

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just regularly refresh them.

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Right.

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Yep.

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Yeah.

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And if, you know, Hey, technically say you should change your password on your major accounts

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every six months.

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I don't know who does that.

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And you can argue that makes you less secure because now you're maybe doing things that are

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memorable.

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That's at least what most enterprise customers do, or at least I did when I was an enterprise

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user.

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And you would just keep incrementing the number at the end.

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Cause it was annoying to keep changing your password every three months, but that's right.

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You know, these things are meant to help people out, but I think we're, uh, we're probably

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actually hurting security with some of these password policies.

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Yeah.

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There was a, there was a good talk from, uh, at the Cloud Foundry summit a couple of weeks

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ago from, uh, from Justin about, about, uh, security as a feature, I think is how he

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opened it.

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There's all sorts of great metaphors for things, but you know, it wasn't really, I wouldn't

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say it was technical at all, but it had a lot of good practices that we should, we

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as, as people who create, uh, infrastructure in the software should start putting into our

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software just to, uh, have security as a, as a default feature.

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And I think that idea of rotating passwords and also, uh, taking advantage of the transient

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nature of applications so that you can, uh, uninstall and reinstall it, kind of blowing

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away any, any sort of malware that might be there.

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There's, there's a lot to be said for, uh, it's, it's almost like a side effect of a

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cloud native approach to applications adds in the possibilities of it being secure in

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better ways than the way both software is.

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Yeah.

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So, I mean, I liked it.

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We're hopefully going to keep moving towards different ideas versus just continuing to beat

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people over the head about 15 character passwords with no hieroglyphics and, you know, whatever

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other characters in there that are hard to guess.

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We have to do passwords better.

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So these breaches sometimes I think help force that issue a little bit.

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And, uh, you know, I've noticed in the consumer space, the, the last thing that I think needs

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to be added is, is like multi-users per an account, right?

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It's the old, uh, it's the old, uh, whether you want to say spouse or partner or whatever

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lingo you want to use, it's the old, uh, spouse needs to pay my bills use case.

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And, uh, you know, I, you know, I feel like there are, there are some sites that have what

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they call like an authorized user or something like that, but it's very rare that, that you

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can actually set up multiple accounts, uh, and, and like family accounts, you know, like

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Spotify and consumer sites are pretty good at that.

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Cause there's a business model for it and Netflix, but man, that's like the last thing

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I need to solve for it because it's, and then it's also like, it raises this, uh, I don't

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know if it's embarrassing, but it's sort of like nerd embarrassing where, uh, where, you

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know, uh, you know, my wife will ask me for a password and I send her this gobbledygook

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and it's just sort of like, yeah, I'm sorry about that.

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That's I'm trying to do the right thing.

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And then of course I'm just telling her passwords.

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I mean, I get a sick pleasure when my, my wife forgets the wifi password and I have to

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read out the 15 digit code cause it gets funny by character 13, but.

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It's, uh, that's probably not helping.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And then meanwhile, also in the fun space, it looks like, uh, I, you know, I, I try, I've

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tried to use Snapchat a little bit, but I just don't, I don't understand what's going

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on with that.

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I'm obviously, and then I'm in the, the minority of people.

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Like I keep getting told that Twitter is not like the normal social, normal social network,

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but it's sure where I spend a lot of my time.

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It's, it's becoming like some sort of, uh, I don't know, some sort of niche or something,

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but have you ever figured out that Snapchat stuff?

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No, I mean, I obviously there's the early reputation of, of sending various pictures

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to people that you, you want to have destroyed immediately, but it's, you know, it's taken

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on its own life.

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Again, that was the news last week.

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It's arguably, it looks like it's 150 million unique users per month, or I think that's the

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per month.

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And Twitter's at one 40.

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So Snapchat's technically passed it.

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And again, kind of comes to this question of, I don't know, what are we supposed to be

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using?

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I think we all agree.

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Google plus is dead.

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So like, where do we kind of interact with people?

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Is it, you know, is stack overflow?

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Has that won the game for kind of developer Q and a, and then you've got, you know, blogs

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are still getting written.

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And it's, I don't know about you, but it seems like we had this pivot a few years ago where

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it was tons of corporate blogs after all the individual blogs in the two thousands.

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And then somehow kind of lost the individual voice and it became all these corporate things.

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And now it seems like we've come back thanks to medium and other things that there's a

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place for long form thoughts.

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But at the same time, I love Twitter.

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I pick up all sorts of interesting things.

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I've met interesting people.

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It keeps me with a pulse on what's going on without having to fully commit to it.

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But what about you?

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What's your universe for, for keeping up with stuff or sharing your contain musings?

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Well, I, I, uh, I use Twitter as a, as a broadcasting mechanism and I have to admit, I don't really

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like follow that much stuff in there.

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I, uh, I recently like fixed my following thing.

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I used to follow like, I don't know, 1500, 2000 people.

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And I finally found a service that unfollowed everything.

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And, uh, and what I'd been doing is I actually had this hidden list of the people I actually

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followed or the accounts I should say.

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And I would just ignore my normal timeline, which was, which is annoying.

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Uh, I mean, it's actually fine if you use like tweet deck and tweet bot, you can follow

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a list instead of your timeline, but you know, it just seemed like, uh, uh, uh,

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a legacy hack, if you will, so to speak.

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So anyways, I unfollowed everyone.

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And then every now and then, like, uh, uh, recently I, uh, I discovered I wasn't following

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Abby Kearns who, uh, you know, works here and is, is, is doing a fellowship at the, at

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the foundation, the Cloud Foundry foundation.

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And so I finally followed her again and she was like, Oh, thanks for finally following her.

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So I get those little embarrassing situations, but, uh, yeah, I mean, I only follow like 150,

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160 people, uh, or so.

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And it's mostly like, uh, truly like a social thing just to see what people are up to.

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And then also a broadcast mechanism.

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Uh, right.

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And I mean, I've noticed that like, uh, it's replaced like what blogs used to be when for

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in the tech world, at least for me from, uh, back, back in the two thousands, right?

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Like that used to be the center of conversation and activity and comments, but now it's all

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the sort of like center of attention for the world that I pay attention to is in Twitter.

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And then to answer your question more fully, I still have a bunch of RSS feeds that I use

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in a combination of, uh, feedly and, and, uh, newsify on my app.

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And that's the main way that's my main source of input.

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Like, cause I find sometimes I find stuff on Twitter that's interesting, but it's usually

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like, it's usually like the tech world equivalent of what I see when I go into Facebook, which

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is just like a bunch of like, um, not useful, but highly entertaining things.

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Right.

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It's the supermarket checkout.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That's, that's a good way of putting it.

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It's, it's like the supermarket checkout row at Fry's, you know, they have that big long

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line with all the, the, the, the aisle of temptation as you're waiting for that person in a short

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sleeve shirt to tell you which line to go to.

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I haven't been to Fry's in a long time, but it's like, it's like sort of like that, you

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know, cause it's got a bunch of nerd stuff in it, at least for, for I have it.

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And, you know, also, uh, I haven't done a survey like this in a long time, informal or

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formal, but I used to sort of pull people, developers and other people about where they

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went for their news sources.

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And Twitter was always one of the highest ranked ones next to just like GitHub and things like

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that.

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So I don't know.

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I sort of assume Twitter is where you go for tech world stuff and, uh, it seems to work

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out.

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If you, if you look at the analytics that we have on our corporate site and, uh, my own

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site and things like that, we get a lot of terrific traffic from Twitter.

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Yeah.

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No, I've noticed it changes how I think about the real time web.

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If, if I can't access an application or a site, or I think something's good.

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I don't go to Google.

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I don't, I search on Twitter and find out who's talking about, you know, this service being

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down or whatever.

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It's, it's just fundamentally changed how I get a, what is going on right now?

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Question versus I hope somebody blogs about this tomorrow so I can figure out what's going

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on.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That's true.

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Yeah.

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You know, with something I need to figure out one day is, is if I should have some sort

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of like professional Facebook presence.

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Cause I did a similar thing in Facebook a couple of years ago where, uh, where I just because

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I didn't want to do it and she volunteered, my wife went through and unfollowed everyone.

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She thought I, I wouldn't care about in Facebook.

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So that it's a total, like, like total personal life, uh, situation instead of, uh, and I,

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and I don't put tech stuff in there at all, but I don't know.

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Right.

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Maybe I should, who knows?

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It's, it's, it seems like a lot of hassle for, for very small gain.

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It does.

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Although we all want the Coté fan page.

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So I think that's where we, where we need to land.

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So I guess speaking, speaking of finding out outages, we also had, uh, some stuff last

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week down under as our friends at Amazon had some issues with data center.

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And we're out for, I think formally like 70, 80 minutes.

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There were some other services that, that stayed down longer, but you know, as usual,

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what follows that some of the gnashing of teeth of, you know, public cloud and stability

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and availability.

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And what also follows is you have to be careful because I can come across as, as condescending,

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but some of the counterpoints of freaking plan for multiple zones, like don't be dumb.

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You get the availability you pay for.

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And so there's always something in between.

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I think to some extent, people still see the cloud as the, here's this magical resilient

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place that can handle, you know, swarms of bees or power outages or whatever, versus the

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other school that says, I don't trust anything.

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And I'm going to be in nine availability zones in 12 regions because everything breaks.

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It feels like there's something in between there.

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But every time this pops up, you seem to have both of these sides come out of the woodwork.

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You hear anything about this?

252
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No, actually, I don't really follow outage stuff.

253
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So they did, did they figure out like what caused it?

254
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No, I mean, it's Australia.

255
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So it could clearly be dingoes or something that that's happening in only Australia.

256
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But I think it was, there was a storm going on.

257
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Yeah.

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Dingo ate their baby.

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So I think it was a storm going on.

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And actually some of that flooding and other stuff cause problems because data centers are

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real things and the cloud is still, you know, a set of physical assets being served up.

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So you're going to be a subject to those things happening.

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Yeah.

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You know, this, this brings up a broader topic that, that I don't know, I feel, I feel like

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I've seen some, some reinvigoration in there.

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Maybe it, maybe it's because there's an analyst publishing cadence.

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What do we have that's going on at the moment, but there there's, there's a little further

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thawing of the idea that like public clouds, probably okay.

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And, and with, with, with qualifications, like, uh, you know, if you need constant uptime,

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that's really expensive, but you probably don't need that.

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So just move along.

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And I remember I've, I've been putting together some, uh, some slides for some, uh, uh, a

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presentation to some government people and I was looking at some predictions and there

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was, there was a pretty good prediction that like, uh, well, I forget what the year was,

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but that more and more government people will be looking to public cloud to be a good mixture

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of cost and security in that, uh, in that a couple of years ago, this point was kind

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of counterintuitive, but it's one of the, uh, the turns out sort of points that gets made

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a lot is that public cloud companies probably can be more secure than many organizations

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in that they have, uh, economies of scale when it comes to security and expertise and

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things like that.

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And so it does seem like increasingly maybe, uh, uh, a cost advantage, a good, a good, a

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good cheaper way of making sure something's secure just to run it somewhere else, which,

283
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you know, I'm sure infrastructure outsourcers have always made that promise, but there's,

284
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there's probably a little more provability when things are centralized instead of spread

285
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out to like one off, off, off sourcers and MSPs as, as there have been historically.

286
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Yeah.

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Especially with this, this prioritization on some of the certifications you go to Amazon

288
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or Microsoft or others and their compliance page is just a sea of logos because they've

289
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passed every weird certification compliance thing about how do they manage credentials and

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rights and access and destruction and, and then these things that matter.

291
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So unlike maybe 10, 15 years ago where you outsource because now it was just someone else's

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problem.

293
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Now you can do it and say, all right, not only do I have some configurability of these places,

294
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but I know underneath the covers, this is not held together with duct tape and wire and

295
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stuff like that.

296
00:15:15,140 --> 00:15:20,200
So, so when you were at, uh, at century link being a service provider, as it were like, like

297
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what, what kind of conversation did you have around outage?

298
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Like, were you, were you like, you only need so many nines or like, like what did your nines

299
00:15:27,660 --> 00:15:31,120
conversation go like with, with the people you talked with?

300
00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:32,000
Yeah.

301
00:15:32,060 --> 00:15:35,860
I mean, I treat arguably every SLA is nothing more than a promise.

302
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It doesn't guarantee anything, you know, an SLA is a promise.

303
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And it says, we are doing things architecturally business-wide business-wise to give you a certain

304
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level of availability.

305
00:15:46,620 --> 00:15:50,860
We've got redundancy, we have, you know, Hey, multiple network pads into a data center.

306
00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,760
We've got all these sorts of things makes tons of sense, but at the end of the day, things

307
00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:59,000
can still go wrong and you still may be down and break quote unquote, break that SLA.

308
00:15:59,260 --> 00:16:02,700
So I think it was, you know, we spent a lot of time explaining what is an SLA.

309
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It demonstrates a certain level of commitment, but that does not absolve you, the customer of

310
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responsibility.

311
00:16:08,420 --> 00:16:12,720
Instead, it says, look, these are the things you can count on from us, but heck, these are

312
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:14,660
infrastructure SLAs in most cases.

313
00:16:14,660 --> 00:16:19,080
And almost, you know, everybody gives you availability in some cases, you know, how many nines of

314
00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:23,620
availability, but not performance or not resilience across sites in some cases.

315
00:16:23,620 --> 00:16:27,880
So when you start thinking of the app tier and above your cloud provider, unless you're

316
00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:32,900
using a PaaS or these sort of platforms that sit above infrastructure, you, you, you can't

317
00:16:32,900 --> 00:16:36,320
give up the responsibility to say, how am I resilient across sites?

318
00:16:36,500 --> 00:16:40,960
How am I making sure that performance and latency isn't terrible if X breaks?

319
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:46,060
And I think we're seeing some, some good discussions at conferences and some good practitioners that

320
00:16:46,060 --> 00:16:48,900
talk about building resilient distributed services.

321
00:16:48,900 --> 00:16:53,280
And I spent a lot of time trying to do that at CenturyLink because customers can sometimes

322
00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:57,100
assume that again, they've outsourced all the responsibility when in fact they have not.

323
00:16:57,620 --> 00:16:57,720
Yeah.

324
00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:02,040
I think, I think that's, that's a good point that, uh, I don't know if it's become a widespread

325
00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:07,820
best practice, but it's, it's, uh, it's, it's, it's one of my, as I always like to analogize

326
00:17:07,820 --> 00:17:12,000
it, one of my flossing things, like everyone knows that you should floss, but you know, no

327
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:12,960
one, very few people do.

328
00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,480
And similarly, it's accepted wisdom.

329
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:19,860
That's, that's more or less proven that at the application layer, you should write your

330
00:17:19,860 --> 00:17:21,220
applications to be resilient.

331
00:17:21,220 --> 00:17:24,400
And that will mean different things for different applications and infrastructure.

332
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:30,540
But, but the flip side of that is like, you know, getting an SLA or a promise for availability

333
00:17:30,540 --> 00:17:34,460
for just raw infrastructure is, is good.

334
00:17:34,780 --> 00:17:38,820
It's, it's, it's sort of like, what's the phrase necessary, it's, it's necessary, but it's

335
00:17:38,820 --> 00:17:40,700
not sufficient to solve all your problems.

336
00:17:40,700 --> 00:17:45,720
Like you're going to need, and, and then, you know, it's sort of like cherry picking anecdotes

337
00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:46,820
and data and stuff like that.

338
00:17:46,820 --> 00:17:51,520
But it does seem to come up that, that, uh, system failures happen, probably happen at the

339
00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:52,460
application layer.

340
00:17:52,460 --> 00:17:56,520
I shouldn't say system, but failures often happen in the application layer more than at

341
00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,340
the infrastructure layer, especially in a cloud environment.

342
00:17:59,340 --> 00:18:03,900
We were trying to normalize and, uh, have as few options down at the infrastructure layer

343
00:18:03,900 --> 00:18:04,500
as possible.

344
00:18:04,500 --> 00:18:07,440
So it's, uh, you need some resilience above that.

345
00:18:07,500 --> 00:18:10,720
Hence the opening comment you had is like, well, you should run in more than one zone.

346
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:12,080
Right.

347
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:16,940
Well, I mean, what's interesting, and there's a good book on, on ops I read, uh, last year

348
00:18:16,940 --> 00:18:20,640
that, you know, as you think about infrastructure at scale, when you're at Google scale or others,

349
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,340
they have hard drives probably failing every 10 minutes because you're there's so, so many,

350
00:18:24,340 --> 00:18:29,020
even if those things have a meantime between failure of once every 10 years, you've got

351
00:18:29,020 --> 00:18:29,760
a million of them.

352
00:18:30,060 --> 00:18:34,540
So they're all going to eventually, and you're going to constantly have infrastructure failing.

353
00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,240
So you rely on your cloud provider to, as you say, kind of normalize that, cover that

354
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:42,780
up because they build the appropriate fabrics that, you know, Hey, fail over cleanly when

355
00:18:42,780 --> 00:18:45,720
a hypervisor goes down or storage drive or a network device.

356
00:18:46,340 --> 00:18:50,040
So again, you need to know your providers doing those sorts of things, but at the same

357
00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:54,260
time, I think we're seeing good application architecture practices that say, you know what?

358
00:18:54,340 --> 00:18:56,620
Meantime between failure is no longer what matters.

359
00:18:56,620 --> 00:18:57,700
It's meantime to recovery.

360
00:18:58,060 --> 00:19:02,180
And that's about building resilient apps, not assuming things will just work forever if

361
00:19:02,180 --> 00:19:03,660
I buy the best hardware possible.

362
00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:09,900
So we were, we were talking before we were recording that you had actually read this roundup of,

363
00:19:10,100 --> 00:19:14,700
as I like to think of it, dis-economies of scale, a good write-up, a collection of papers

364
00:19:14,700 --> 00:19:20,480
going over how essentially the, the larger your team size when it comes to software.

365
00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:27,900
And I guess going back to Aristotle, non-software, but as, as the, the, the blog post is actually

366
00:19:27,900 --> 00:19:32,600
titled, but you know, it, it, it seemed like a good roundup of, of something that we kind of all

367
00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:38,500
intuitively know that like, as you grow the size of the team for solving a problem, uh, things

368
00:19:38,500 --> 00:19:39,380
don't go so well.

369
00:19:39,380 --> 00:19:44,180
It's better to have a small team, but since, since you actually read, and I hope understood

370
00:19:44,180 --> 00:19:46,900
the piece, like what, how, how would you summarize all of that?

371
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:47,840
Yeah.

372
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:52,200
I mean, like you said, you know, I think many of us who've been in any sort of IT landscape

373
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:56,080
for a while are familiar with the, Hey, the projects behind, let's add some more people.

374
00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:00,500
And that almost never goes well because it's a whole, you know, nine women aren't going

375
00:20:00,500 --> 00:20:02,460
to give birth in a month sort of thing.

376
00:20:02,580 --> 00:20:03,500
It doesn't help.

377
00:20:03,500 --> 00:20:08,020
So in some cases, sure, when you're remarkably short staffed and people are, you know, not

378
00:20:08,020 --> 00:20:12,160
doing well, adding additional people, but there's a common understanding, as you say,

379
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,280
that, you know, five to 15 people is the right team size for almost anything.

380
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,400
It doesn't matter what you're doing, that that's a good team size.

381
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:23,880
And that once you get beyond that, you hit the communication problem and the friction of,

382
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:25,220
you know what, now we got to synchronize.

383
00:20:25,420 --> 00:20:26,360
Now we got to do some status.

384
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:31,060
Now we have to start, you know, it becomes this, this burden to keep the team in sync.

385
00:20:31,140 --> 00:20:35,700
So some of the premise of the paper was as well, does open source buck that trend?

386
00:20:36,300 --> 00:20:40,300
Because look at these open source things being Cloud Foundry has hundreds of committers.

387
00:20:40,660 --> 00:20:41,680
Linux does open stack.

388
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:43,620
So aren't these disproving it?

389
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:49,080
Because I'm increasing velocity with something like Cloud Foundry, even though we've got hundreds

390
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:49,680
of committers.

391
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,320
So maybe there's open source disprove this conventional wisdom.

392
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:59,140
And a lot of the research went through in the paper that looked at frequency of commits and

393
00:20:59,140 --> 00:21:02,940
a number of other things that still said, look, there's a lot of core people who are involved

394
00:21:02,940 --> 00:21:03,780
in these things.

395
00:21:04,260 --> 00:21:06,160
Open source really isn't that much different.

396
00:21:06,340 --> 00:21:09,340
Smaller teams are more productive than larger ones.

397
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,540
And you can look at that by the extent of the commit.

398
00:21:12,740 --> 00:21:16,340
You know, you could have a lot of committers, but if they're changing a line, that's different

399
00:21:16,340 --> 00:21:17,660
than people rewriting stuff.

400
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,680
So I was trying to look at who are the people involved and can you still prove that this

401
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:21,940
matters?

402
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:26,220
And by the end of it, again, still proving that the end of the day, smaller teams are going

403
00:21:26,220 --> 00:21:31,200
to be more effective, more productive because they don't pay this tax of synchronization

404
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:32,620
and communication problems.

405
00:21:32,620 --> 00:21:37,620
And again, I think we all see that in every aspect of our technology jobs, whether you're

406
00:21:37,620 --> 00:21:42,380
an enterprise IT or a software vendor or a service provider, smaller teams of talented

407
00:21:42,380 --> 00:21:43,080
people, right?

408
00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:46,460
They'll just grab the four people you find on the street corner and say, run my service

409
00:21:46,460 --> 00:21:46,960
at scale.

410
00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:52,360
But give me, you know, a handful of talented people that I'm not going to overburden by

411
00:21:52,360 --> 00:21:53,360
giving them this assignment.

412
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,260
And then, you know, if it starts needing to get too big, then it gets bigger and maybe

413
00:21:57,260 --> 00:21:58,180
you split it off again.

414
00:21:58,500 --> 00:22:02,200
And I've worked in multiple cases where that's the case where once you hit a critical mass,

415
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:03,720
you know what, maybe the scope's gotten too big.

416
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:05,660
Now it's time to actually split the scope.

417
00:22:05,780 --> 00:22:10,120
And it's taking a very active role versus just kind of kingdom building, saying I want

418
00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:13,620
a, you know, 200 person PMO versus, you know what, maybe I don't need that.

419
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:19,400
Yeah, it's, you know, going back to the realm of intuition and anecdote.

420
00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:27,340
I feel like when I and other people go out and talk to organizations about how they need

421
00:22:27,340 --> 00:22:29,960
to change to be more cloud native and things like that.

422
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:35,500
Not all of, but a large amount of what we're saying is you need to change the way your

423
00:22:35,500 --> 00:22:41,020
organization is structured because currently it's almost like your organization structure

424
00:22:41,020 --> 00:22:42,840
is the product that you're working on.

425
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:49,040
Like you're, you're, you're spending a lot of time, uh, like moving information around,

426
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:54,720
having meetings to synchronize things like reviewing people, like taking care of the organization

427
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:56,260
versus focusing on the product.

428
00:22:56,260 --> 00:23:01,480
And I think, I think a lot of companies or a lot of organizations get that way when they've,

429
00:23:01,540 --> 00:23:10,460
they've confused like, uh, mission criticality with being validated by a large amount of people

430
00:23:10,460 --> 00:23:11,420
working on something.

431
00:23:11,420 --> 00:23:16,600
And, and there's almost this, uh, it's hard to disabuse if that's the right word, people

432
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:20,940
of the notion that you need a lot of people to be successful on software projects.

433
00:23:20,940 --> 00:23:25,400
Like, you know, I don't know, I don't know the construction industry too well, but I wonder

434
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,900
if there's similar things for like building highways and things like that.

435
00:23:28,900 --> 00:23:33,120
Like how, how many people are actually useful for doing like physical work, like building

436
00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:34,380
a house or something like that.

437
00:23:34,380 --> 00:23:38,980
And, and it seems like, you know, there was a bunch of like fancy scatter plots and things

438
00:23:38,980 --> 00:23:44,100
like that, but it almost seems like there's a, there's should be a way of measuring complexity

439
00:23:44,100 --> 00:23:48,900
of software, which is always a terrible canard of a thing to do.

440
00:23:49,060 --> 00:23:52,920
Like, remember people used to have like story points and not even, I mean, if you have story

441
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:54,040
points, what were the units they used?

442
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:54,760
Code points.

443
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:59,420
I remember looking that up from the old crusty books a long time ago, but if, you know, a

444
00:23:59,420 --> 00:24:04,040
way of sort of plotting complexity of software and like number of people where, where the

445
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,140
advantage of having that number of people drops off.

446
00:24:06,180 --> 00:24:11,500
And we have all sorts of, uh, anecdotes that fill that in, but this, this, uh, this roundup

447
00:24:11,500 --> 00:24:16,100
seemed to be a pretty good analytical look at like the, the, the core size of people you

448
00:24:16,100 --> 00:24:19,120
want is always a lot smaller than you would anticipate it to be.

449
00:24:19,860 --> 00:24:20,220
Yeah.

450
00:24:20,300 --> 00:24:24,520
I mean, sometimes you can just mistake output for outcomes and that sometimes just right

451
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:25,600
cranking through stuff.

452
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,020
That's not actually an indicator you're making progress.

453
00:24:28,300 --> 00:24:28,660
Yeah.

454
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,660
It's, you know, it's important to make sure you're focused on value.

455
00:24:31,660 --> 00:24:35,420
I got a master's degree in engineering and some of the focus was on lean and agile and,

456
00:24:35,980 --> 00:24:41,060
you know, professor going through stats at 95% of most processes are waste because it's

457
00:24:41,060 --> 00:24:44,860
just, you know what, you're dealing with duplication, you're dealing with communication, you're dealing

458
00:24:44,860 --> 00:24:45,840
with all these things.

459
00:24:45,980 --> 00:24:49,440
And very little of that would your customer actually pay for if they came in and said,

460
00:24:49,540 --> 00:24:51,400
what am I going to go paying for when I buy your product?

461
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:53,420
Probably not the three hour status meeting.

462
00:24:53,700 --> 00:24:54,060
Yeah.

463
00:24:54,320 --> 00:25:01,400
And, and, and those, those hit on like, uh, uh, a, a very brief, but, uh, rich little

464
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:02,640
writeup that I found recently.

465
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:07,460
I'm, I'm always like on the lookout for, uh, I don't know, or organizations writing up.

466
00:25:07,700 --> 00:25:10,420
Here's, here's things we found out about doing software.

467
00:25:10,420 --> 00:25:13,220
And it's very rare that you find them in of all places.

468
00:25:13,220 --> 00:25:18,640
I think this new source is from like Singapore, this Govan cider place, which is really weird.

469
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:23,440
Uh, but, uh, it's, it's, I guess it was, it was listed in tech me and that's how I found

470
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:23,540
it.

471
00:25:23,540 --> 00:25:28,540
And it was just this quick interview with someone who used to run the, uh, the UK is like

472
00:25:28,540 --> 00:25:29,920
digital services branch.

473
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,380
And there's, there's a tremendous, there's like three or four good little points in there.

474
00:25:33,380 --> 00:25:37,340
And one of them is exactly what we're talking about is like, whenever you're writing software

475
00:25:37,340 --> 00:25:44,520
to wrap around a government provided service, like registering for a restaurant or like finding

476
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,540
how much taxes you owe or things like that, you probably only need like eight or 10, 12

477
00:25:48,540 --> 00:25:54,380
people on the team, like, which for having, having talked with a lot of government agency

478
00:25:54,380 --> 00:25:58,620
people is an astonishingly small team for a lot of government and contracting work.

479
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,240
And, and, you know, so, so that, that kind of anecdote was pretty good in there.

480
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,140
And then there were a couple of good examples.

481
00:26:04,340 --> 00:26:09,000
One of the main emphasis I really liked in this piece was being very, uh, they say citizen,

482
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:14,220
but, you know, user centric and thinking about like, as a user, what is it you want to do?

483
00:26:14,260 --> 00:26:15,480
What are you trying to accomplish?

484
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:21,600
Um, and it gets to the point of like, instead, when you have a large organization, like government

485
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:27,760
organizations and large enterprises are there, their software tends to match the silos that

486
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:32,360
they have, and they didn't really like eludicate this example very much, but there was a good

487
00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:37,240
example of like, if you're, if you're registering to be a, uh, to have a license to open a restaurant,

488
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,920
there's multiple agencies you have to go to, to get all the licensing.

489
00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:45,920
Whereas like, uh, you're just opening one restaurant and you really don't care if there's

490
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:46,780
multiple agencies.

491
00:26:46,900 --> 00:26:51,100
So you'd like to just fill out one application that, that would go to all of them.

492
00:26:51,100 --> 00:26:56,700
And, and I remember, I remember going to, uh, hearing some customers in the, um, mortgage

493
00:26:56,700 --> 00:27:01,180
application business many years ago, like making a similar point where like when you fill out a

494
00:27:01,180 --> 00:27:04,800
mortgage application, there's all of these parties and stakeholders you need to fill things out

495
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:05,060
for.

496
00:27:05,260 --> 00:27:09,200
So there's a tremendous amount of streamlining that can be done to make it faster.

497
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:14,580
And this was back in the heyday of just like, you know, signing up dogs and cats and everyone

498
00:27:14,580 --> 00:27:15,460
else for mortgages.

499
00:27:15,460 --> 00:27:20,200
So making it, making it a rapid streamlined process was very, it was of interest to people,

500
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,240
but, uh, you know, and, and, and then finally, the last thing that I thought was kind of interesting

501
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:29,960
was, uh, a, a position on a native web apps versus mobile apps.

502
00:27:30,340 --> 00:27:34,740
And it was, it was almost saying that for governments who are always very cost conscious,

503
00:27:34,740 --> 00:27:40,980
it's probably a good idea to look at doing mobile applications because one, they'll work on a

504
00:27:40,980 --> 00:27:46,520
wider variety of, of devices for the one thing that you use, which is probably as always kind

505
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:47,620
of sort of true, right?

506
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:52,260
There's always compatibility stuff you'll need to do, but maintain, maintaining the applications

507
00:27:52,260 --> 00:27:55,100
is where a lot of your cost savings will come from.

508
00:27:55,100 --> 00:27:58,380
And, and, and there's a quote from the, the person who was interviewed kind of alluding

509
00:27:58,380 --> 00:28:02,700
to this, where he was saying he was looking at, uh, I guess, I think it was Singapore again,

510
00:28:02,700 --> 00:28:05,660
how they had like 300 native mobile apps.

511
00:28:05,860 --> 00:28:10,400
And he was, he was remarking that like maintaining those over the course of many years with all

512
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,460
the updates that come up and having to update the toolkits is going to be a, uh, a large

513
00:28:14,460 --> 00:28:20,200
job versus mobile apps, which again is one of those kind of sort of things probably, but

514
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:27,080
it was, uh, it was, it was interesting sort of take on that because normally in a, um, in

515
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:32,520
a, in a profit driven world, I think the default would be more to look at native apps because

516
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:37,740
you have the money to, uh, to sort of put into that, you know, you're more focused on maximizing

517
00:28:37,740 --> 00:28:41,460
profit than really maximizing costs.

518
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,140
I don't know how to phrase that, but, but minimizing the costs you have.

519
00:28:45,140 --> 00:28:50,060
Whereas I think there was another point he made in there that was, and he, I'm putting words,

520
00:28:50,180 --> 00:28:54,080
I'm rephrasing this in my own way, but he made this point of like, yeah, we used to have a

521
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,960
bunch of like nice images and pictures on some of these pages.

522
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,840
And then like, we realized that those don't really help.

523
00:29:00,020 --> 00:29:04,380
So we just stripped that out and they're pretty basic looking pages, which I think is

524
00:29:04,380 --> 00:29:09,480
again, probably a okay for government stuff, but you might want a little more pizzazz for

525
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:14,560
differentiation when you're in the consumer space, because not, there's a very small percentage

526
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,300
of the people who can choose which government they're going to go with.

527
00:29:17,900 --> 00:29:18,340
Right.

528
00:29:18,740 --> 00:29:20,580
They're kind of stuck with the government they have.

529
00:29:20,580 --> 00:29:27,280
So while design, uh, as far as productivity is important design, as far as like pizzazz is

530
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:31,000
maybe not like, uh, really high on the list of things that you need.

531
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:32,040
Yeah.

532
00:29:32,140 --> 00:29:32,840
Like that makes sense.

533
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:33,580
User experience.

534
00:29:33,700 --> 00:29:33,820
Yeah.

535
00:29:33,820 --> 00:29:36,640
Always matters, but that takes different flavors based on your audience.

536
00:29:36,780 --> 00:29:39,900
So now that's interesting stuff probably leads into our main topic for the day.

537
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,700
And as we think about, you know, how do you look at your portfolio and figure out what

538
00:29:43,700 --> 00:29:44,040
you're doing?

539
00:29:44,420 --> 00:29:44,700
Yeah.

540
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:49,460
I mean, that's, that's something you and I have been, uh, uh, working on some, some

541
00:29:49,460 --> 00:29:51,080
small pieces and things here and there.

542
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:55,800
And definitely something that comes up all the time is, uh, what do I do with all of this

543
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:57,340
legacy stuff that I have?

544
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:02,080
And, uh, yeah, I mean, it's certainly something I've, I've spent a lot of time writing about,

545
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:07,620
uh, I don't know, at a high level and talking with people with, but it, but it is, uh, yeah,

546
00:30:07,620 --> 00:30:08,700
it's a difficult issue.

547
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,740
There's not really, as, as I often like saying, there's not really great answers.

548
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:18,480
No, there seems to be bad ones, but there don't, you know, it might not even be right

549
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:20,860
ones, but there's wrong ones as we think about this.

550
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:25,500
And as we're framing this, you know, for people, it's this idea of what do I do with

551
00:30:25,500 --> 00:30:27,740
and legacy, we can even argue if that's the right word.

552
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,560
There was a tweet storm earlier in the week from people saying, you know, it's legacy even

553
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,880
the right word or is legacy typically has a positive connotation.

554
00:30:35,060 --> 00:30:38,880
Like, Hey, you know, it's a legacy for my family, but we're using the same word to

555
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,420
paint the, you know, the dumpster fire of it that is sitting in our data center.

556
00:30:42,660 --> 00:30:43,640
Is that different?

557
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,700
Is that just old stuff or is it production apps for the positive things?

558
00:30:47,780 --> 00:30:48,980
They're actually generating me money.

559
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,640
Nonetheless, we're meaning what do I do with the stuff I have?

560
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,520
And then I'm looking at new technologies, platforms, containers, whatever.

561
00:30:57,660 --> 00:30:59,720
Is there a migration story?

562
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:01,640
Is it a rebuild it?

563
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,680
How am I supposed to approach that stuff is what you and I went to chat about here.

564
00:31:04,980 --> 00:31:05,180
Yeah.

565
00:31:05,380 --> 00:31:10,060
And to that point, like there's, there's, there's a two main ways that I try to define

566
00:31:10,060 --> 00:31:10,940
what legacy is.

567
00:31:10,940 --> 00:31:15,000
And, and, and, you know, the first one is, and you kind of characterized it are basically

568
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:23,960
like existing, I'll just call them systems, but existing software that I have that like people,

569
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,840
our organization is using to run things.

570
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:32,540
And for some reason, we're afraid to touch it, right?

571
00:31:32,540 --> 00:31:38,100
Like, like, like if you don't really have a fear of modifying and messing around with,

572
00:31:38,100 --> 00:31:41,400
with that, the software, you usually don't think of it as legacy.

573
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,820
Like legacy, you usually only call something legacy because there's some problem when it

574
00:31:45,820 --> 00:31:46,980
comes with dealing with it.

575
00:31:46,980 --> 00:31:51,120
Like whatever, whatever application, your applications, you're looking forward.

576
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,780
Well, I don't know if you're looking forward to it, but whatever applications you don't mind

577
00:31:54,780 --> 00:31:57,280
messing around with, you usually never call that legacy.

578
00:31:57,460 --> 00:31:58,600
They're, they're fine.

579
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:03,840
And so it's almost like that's the first filter is it has to be some existing system that's

580
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,020
you fear changing it.

581
00:32:06,460 --> 00:32:09,880
But for some reason you do, you probably need to change it.

582
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,200
Like, I guess there's another category of existing systems.

583
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,180
You never really need to change that you've kind of forgotten about.

584
00:32:16,180 --> 00:32:20,980
You could call those like ROI maximizers, right?

585
00:32:21,380 --> 00:32:21,620
Yeah.

586
00:32:21,620 --> 00:32:25,180
I mean, there's no reason you could never justify the cost of switching it or it doesn't make

587
00:32:25,180 --> 00:32:26,800
a difference because it just doesn't do money.

588
00:32:26,900 --> 00:32:27,700
It does what it does.

589
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:28,040
Yeah.

590
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:29,680
They don't go swap it out.

591
00:32:29,860 --> 00:32:30,060
Yeah.

592
00:32:30,140 --> 00:32:34,420
And, and, and then, and then often as, as, as I joke at this point, those are applications

593
00:32:34,420 --> 00:32:36,100
that make you a lot of money, right?

594
00:32:36,100 --> 00:32:39,420
Like, or, or somehow fulfill a lot of whatever mission you have.

595
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,340
And that's, that's part of what makes you afraid of messing with them is you're afraid of

596
00:32:43,340 --> 00:32:48,940
like, uh, the risk benefit analysis of, I might screw this up often doesn't, uh, fit well

597
00:32:48,940 --> 00:32:53,080
with whatever, whatever money or whatever process you're benefiting from, from it.

598
00:32:53,140 --> 00:32:58,440
And then the second one, like from a more technical level, I just steal from that old, uh, that old

599
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:03,680
Michael Feathers book, which is, which is, uh, a developer centric way of explaining what,

600
00:33:03,780 --> 00:33:08,160
what, what we were just talking about, which is legacy code is code that doesn't have good

601
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:13,740
test coverage or, or it doesn't have ample test coverage, which makes you fearful of changing it.

602
00:33:13,740 --> 00:33:13,980
Right.

603
00:33:14,020 --> 00:33:18,920
Like if, if you had good test coverage on your code, then you wouldn't be afraid of changing

604
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,960
it because if you changed it and something broke, you would catch it in tests.

605
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:27,560
But often, uh, you know, that's, you know, legacy is defined by stuff that's untestable

606
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:29,480
or you don't feel confident in testing.

607
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,280
And so there's kind of that definition.

608
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:38,620
I think maybe a third one, especially in our, our line of work is, uh, runs on old platforms

609
00:33:38,620 --> 00:33:44,960
or, or runs on a platform other than what you consider your new default corporate platform.

610
00:33:45,380 --> 00:33:50,320
And so, and so therefore it's like a one-off thing that you have, uh, running around somewhere.

611
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:51,200
Yeah.

612
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:55,220
I'm sure Microsoft access is still in heavy use in many places from a database.

613
00:33:55,220 --> 00:33:56,980
Somebody wrote in 2003, you know what?

614
00:33:57,020 --> 00:33:57,980
And it does the job.

615
00:33:57,980 --> 00:33:58,600
That's right.

616
00:33:58,780 --> 00:34:02,060
And, and speaking of government, like there, there, there's, there's, uh, there's some

617
00:34:02,060 --> 00:34:06,300
good Senate testimony from a years ago that the IRS still runs some core processing on

618
00:34:06,300 --> 00:34:08,740
Kennedy era, like IBM machines.

619
00:34:08,900 --> 00:34:13,400
And then, and then I don't know why this came out, but there was, there was some, uh, some

620
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:18,520
articles recently, maybe it was from some floppy disk, uh, manufacturers that, uh, some sort

621
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:25,520
of like us nuclear and Norwegian medical association stuff still runs on floppy disks because, uh,

622
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,720
as, as, as, as people said, because they work.

623
00:34:30,240 --> 00:34:30,600
Right.

624
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:32,980
And arguably are more secure because no one's hacking that stuff.

625
00:34:33,100 --> 00:34:33,280
Right.

626
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:33,420
Right.

627
00:34:33,740 --> 00:34:37,480
That's, that's what they said about the, uh, the ICBM stuff is like, well, they're also

628
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:38,260
not on the internet.

629
00:34:38,260 --> 00:34:42,860
So they're inherently more secure despite all that war game stuff.

630
00:34:42,860 --> 00:34:46,920
We, that propaganda we were given way back in the eighties that they, they were reachable

631
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:47,620
by a network.

632
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:49,420
No one's dealing with floppies.

633
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:53,140
I mean, so one reason we're, we're talking about this, cause this stuff seems to pop up

634
00:34:53,140 --> 00:34:56,780
every few years in this approach of, of what do you do with those things?

635
00:34:56,780 --> 00:35:01,200
As you say, they're on old platforms or don't have good test coverage, or maybe they're working

636
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:05,860
okay, but you know, there's some inflexibility in whatever that existing technology is.

637
00:35:05,900 --> 00:35:09,980
It's holding me back from doing new crazy mobile stuff, or it's keeping me from integrating

638
00:35:09,980 --> 00:35:11,120
with a partner or whatever.

639
00:35:11,580 --> 00:35:15,080
So it seems like we up every few years, or maybe it's all the time.

640
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:20,820
Talk about a migration approach, or do you re-platform, or do you leave it where it is, or do you

641
00:35:20,820 --> 00:35:22,420
just do some light refactoring?

642
00:35:22,860 --> 00:35:26,260
Am I supposed to lift and shift legacy stuff is maybe the question to ask.

643
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,640
So why do you think that's appealing?

644
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,380
Why does, why does a CIO look and go lift and shift?

645
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:35,500
That sounds kind of awesome.

646
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:37,300
Hey, I'm using Pivotal Cloud Foundry.

647
00:35:37,380 --> 00:35:39,480
I'm using a new Docker container service.

648
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,020
Hey, I'm using an Azure cloud environment.

649
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,340
Can't I just take my stuff and run it there?

650
00:35:44,340 --> 00:35:45,280
Why do you think that's appealing?

651
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,460
I think, I think, I think there's, there's a handful of reasons.

652
00:35:49,460 --> 00:35:53,800
One of them is, and they're both the same reason.

653
00:35:54,220 --> 00:35:57,840
Like, I think one of them is just like the business case.

654
00:35:58,540 --> 00:36:03,980
And whenever, whenever you end up buying a new platform or a new IT system or, or whatever,

655
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:10,740
some chunk of enterprise technology, I mean, at the, the, to, to do, to do sort of like

656
00:36:10,740 --> 00:36:19,740
a platonic, you know, uppercase T truth, like analysis, the, the ultimate form that any piece

657
00:36:19,740 --> 00:36:25,840
of enterprise software has to meet is solves your business process, your business problem

658
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:27,440
in a way that's affordable.

659
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,060
Where affordable is defined as you don't lose money.

660
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,480
You may not profit, but you're not going to lose money doing it.

661
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:34,720
Right.

662
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,920
It's, it's sort of like a, to, to mix in more ancient Greek people.

663
00:36:38,020 --> 00:36:40,060
It's like a Hippocratic oath for enterprise IT.

664
00:36:40,420 --> 00:36:42,640
Like do no harm to the CFO.

665
00:36:42,860 --> 00:36:44,960
That's like the promise of enterprise software.

666
00:36:45,260 --> 00:36:51,200
And so, so when you, when you buy one of these big platforms, you want to like stuff as much

667
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:52,660
stuff as, in it as possible.

668
00:36:52,660 --> 00:36:58,120
Cause that's how like a ratios work and division is like your ROI is going to be so much better

669
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:03,380
if you put a whole bunch of stuff on whatever side it is such that a cost and spin come out

670
00:37:03,380 --> 00:37:03,940
looking good.

671
00:37:04,420 --> 00:37:06,300
And then it starts turning off the old stuff.

672
00:37:06,420 --> 00:37:06,660
Yeah.

673
00:37:06,740 --> 00:37:06,920
Yeah.

674
00:37:07,240 --> 00:37:07,920
Supposedly helps.

675
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:11,380
And, and, and then also, you know, whenever you, whenever you're looking at a new platform,

676
00:37:11,380 --> 00:37:17,660
there's often a lot, the productivity gains are often sold as there's more operational,

677
00:37:17,660 --> 00:37:21,600
uh, um, productivity and more development productivity.

678
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:26,080
So like one of the things, you know, we, we talk about with Pivotal Cloud Foundry is like,

679
00:37:26,500 --> 00:37:30,940
um, like there's all sorts of ratios, but like you can run hundreds or thousands of

680
00:37:30,940 --> 00:37:34,980
applications with just like five or 10 ops people to run the platform.

681
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,600
You may need, you may need a lot more software developers, right.

682
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,160
Who are focusing on the application layer, kind of like we were talking about earlier with

683
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:43,340
SLAs and stuff, right?

684
00:37:43,340 --> 00:37:48,620
Like all of your activity goes up to the application layer, but running the default infrastructure,

685
00:37:48,620 --> 00:37:50,720
uh, you get a lot of benefits from that.

686
00:37:50,720 --> 00:37:54,780
So if you're, if you're considering that those kinds of benefits, you look at your existing

687
00:37:54,780 --> 00:37:56,940
infrastructure and you're like, Oh, I don't have those kinds of ratios.

688
00:37:56,940 --> 00:38:03,100
I have like, however many, many admins to as however many servers and applications I have.

689
00:38:03,100 --> 00:38:05,940
So why don't I just move everything over to this new platform and then I'll get all those

690
00:38:05,940 --> 00:38:06,420
benefits.

691
00:38:06,500 --> 00:38:08,000
So, so you get that kind of stuff.

692
00:38:08,500 --> 00:38:13,260
And so it's, it's really just like, uh, it's kind of like the debate around bimodal

693
00:38:13,260 --> 00:38:13,500
IT.

694
00:38:13,500 --> 00:38:17,440
It's like, well, if operating this stuff is so awesome, why don't I apply that to everything?

695
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:19,680
So that I'll get, I'll get more awesomeness.

696
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:25,600
And then I think the second thing is like, um, you know, over the past, what is it?

697
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:26,120
What is this?

698
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:32,980
20, 10 years or 10, 15 years, like, like VMware and virtualization was kind of this.

699
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:37,420
It was just like, yeah, you just sort of drag your applications over here and it all works

700
00:38:37,420 --> 00:38:37,900
out well.

701
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:44,080
And so, so a lot of people have been trained, like the, the current, the current, like high

702
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:50,080
level middle management and even executives, they all came up as it were in an age where

703
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:51,180
you could do that.

704
00:38:51,260 --> 00:38:55,980
Essentially, you could just optimize, you'd like do very little changes to the application

705
00:38:55,980 --> 00:38:59,000
and just virtualize them and get huge benefits from it.

706
00:38:59,060 --> 00:39:03,700
So you kind of like look at IT in that way and you think you can just move legacy over

707
00:39:03,700 --> 00:39:05,400
and you start to just expect that.

708
00:39:05,980 --> 00:39:08,760
And to a certain extent, I think SAS is kind of like that, right?

709
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:14,060
Like at least when it comes to like email and messaging and some other stuff, whereas like

710
00:39:14,060 --> 00:39:19,280
moving from an on-premise enterprise application to an off-premise application, like you can get

711
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:25,800
those similar, uh, one-time pain of like migration movement and then everything's all happy-go-lucky

712
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:26,860
and fun.

713
00:39:27,020 --> 00:39:30,520
But I don't know, I mean, I think that's what makes people think that there's a lot

714
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:32,800
into, uh, lift and shift stuff.

715
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:38,520
And then, and then finally, like, I think it is possible with, with sometimes with, with

716
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,560
new technologies to get out with new platforms to get all those benefits.

717
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:47,180
Like, like, uh, there, there, there was, there was a story that, um, like someone was saying

718
00:39:47,180 --> 00:39:52,200
that like, you could move like 20 or 30% of your existing applications to a Pivotal cloud

719
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:56,960
foundry instance, which I have no idea if those numbers are accurate, but it does sort of

720
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:57,460
make sense.

721
00:39:57,460 --> 00:40:01,980
Like, like knowing the internal numbers for some of our larger, uh, accounts, like the

722
00:40:01,980 --> 00:40:03,140
applications they move over.

723
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:07,540
There are, there's some, there's some customers who use Pivotal Cloud Foundry and they very

724
00:40:07,540 --> 00:40:12,160
rapidly move hundreds of existing applications over to the new platform to get all those, uh,

725
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:12,840
those benefits.

726
00:40:13,740 --> 00:40:14,140
Right.

727
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:15,000
Man, that was a good story.

728
00:40:15,060 --> 00:40:20,180
I relied on some, some shadowy pivotal figures for quotes and overall pointed out some, some

729
00:40:20,180 --> 00:40:23,820
good stuff that, you know, PCF isn't just for new stuff.

730
00:40:23,900 --> 00:40:28,060
Now at the same time, I mean, think to your point, I think where I feel bad sometimes for

731
00:40:28,060 --> 00:40:30,780
the CIO, because vendors aren't helping this case.

732
00:40:30,820 --> 00:40:32,500
In some cases it's, it's, here's our new product.

733
00:40:32,620 --> 00:40:33,020
Yeah, sure.

734
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:33,940
Move everything over here.

735
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,440
Versus, is that the right call?

736
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:41,360
And you know, I mean, Pivotal talks a lot about 12 factor apps and we talk about cloud

737
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:41,700
native.

738
00:40:41,700 --> 00:40:44,380
Now you can argue cloud ready versus cloud native.

739
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:50,000
Maybe it wasn't built with these sort of stateless, scalable, quick startup philosophies in mind

740
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,300
that kind of define cloud native, but you know, it's cloud ready.

741
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:54,780
It's a good looking Java app.

742
00:40:54,860 --> 00:40:55,860
It's a smart Ruby app.

743
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:57,700
It has decoupled dependencies.

744
00:40:57,700 --> 00:41:01,220
It's something that already goes through a continuous integration chain, pushing that

745
00:41:01,220 --> 00:41:01,800
to Cloud Foundry.

746
00:41:01,860 --> 00:41:02,620
It's not gonna be a big deal.

747
00:41:02,780 --> 00:41:08,740
You'll actually get a lot of advantage, but do I pick up my, you know, four terabyte

748
00:41:08,740 --> 00:41:11,320
teradata data warehouse and containerize it?

749
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:13,940
Like, am I going to get any benefits from that at all?

750
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:20,220
Or, you know, this tightly coupled application that has a lot of local state or, you know,

751
00:41:20,240 --> 00:41:23,580
it doesn't scale out well because it's going to crush the database, whatever it is.

752
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:25,400
Some cases you just leave it put.

753
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,380
And I hopefully, I know Pivotal tries to make sure we give some pretty practical advice there,

754
00:41:29,420 --> 00:41:31,460
although we can also get excited about our own platform.

755
00:41:31,460 --> 00:41:36,680
But how do you start to frame these things when you'd be talking to a customer about cloud

756
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,640
native versus cloud ready versus just leave it the hell alone?

757
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:44,100
You know, how do you frame that so they don't accidentally spend a lot of their precious

758
00:41:44,100 --> 00:41:47,360
IT dollars doing something that won't actually return any value to them?

759
00:41:47,720 --> 00:41:47,940
Yeah.

760
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:53,140
And that gets to the, you know, I was joking earlier about how there's not really great

761
00:41:53,140 --> 00:41:55,680
answers when it comes to dealing with legacy, right?

762
00:41:55,680 --> 00:42:00,180
And the answers are like, yeah, it's hard.

763
00:42:00,620 --> 00:42:08,320
Like there's, there's, if, if, if it's technically possible to replatform your application and you

764
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:13,460
don't have to spend a lot of time rewriting it and you've got enough test coverage so you

765
00:42:13,460 --> 00:42:17,320
can change it, like, you know, it's and, and, and then like everything's dandy.

766
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:23,780
But the reason you're asking this question is because you can't do all those things, right?

767
00:42:23,780 --> 00:42:31,040
And so, so you're looking for like a philosopher's stone of alchemical magic to like, like, do you have the magic answer?

768
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:38,160
And this is why I always reference like the virtualization stuff is like, well, at the moment, there's not really a lot of magical answers like there used to be.

769
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:46,660
So the, the, you know, this, this leads us to the, you know, like you were saying, like identify things that can run on a new platform and be replatformed and do that.

770
00:42:46,860 --> 00:43:01,820
And then there's this other stuff, which is like, well, make sure you've actually virtualized everything as much as possible, which despite, despite what we in the vendor world and people who hang out in Twitter, as we were talking about earlier, you may think like not everyone is virtualized as much as possible.

771
00:43:01,820 --> 00:43:04,180
So that's still a big project that they can do.

772
00:43:04,420 --> 00:43:14,880
And then, and then after that, you also like the other thing, like I've, I've, I've, I've learned after many years, never to assume that, uh, people are following best practices.

773
00:43:15,460 --> 00:43:18,200
And so, so I tried to, it's the flossing thing.

774
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,480
I tried to emphasize like, oh, you should really do that.

775
00:43:20,620 --> 00:43:26,960
And so like the, the thing I've settled on now is like, so, uh, you should be doing portfolio management.

776
00:43:27,180 --> 00:43:29,340
I'm sure you do that.

777
00:43:29,340 --> 00:43:29,660
Right.

778
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:30,180
Right.

779
00:43:30,180 --> 00:43:40,640
Like you, you sit down on at least an annual basis and you kind of sort of look at all the applications you have and you rank them by their importance, however you do that.

780
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:44,540
And you think about like, what's the next two years of this application?

781
00:43:44,720 --> 00:43:47,100
How am I going to ensure that it has what it needs?

782
00:43:47,100 --> 00:43:49,080
Or should I shut this application down?

783
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:55,140
And then how do I even set up a process such that I do that instead of ignoring doing it?

784
00:43:55,200 --> 00:44:05,020
And I think, uh, you know, I, I haven't, I haven't read up on enterprise architecture, um, like best practices in a while.

785
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,200
Uh, because, because frankly, as an industry, we don't really talk about it.

786
00:44:09,240 --> 00:44:13,380
We spend a lot of time talking about, um, individual applications instead of aggregate.

787
00:44:13,380 --> 00:44:22,960
And I don't think, I don't think doing things in a cloud native style has been in practice for like a decade or so such that you could go out and study those things.

788
00:44:23,340 --> 00:44:23,780
Correct.

789
00:44:23,940 --> 00:44:32,960
But as a substitute, I mean, as always, if you borrow from the vendor world, you can start to get a good template for how to work out on the enterprise side, if you will.

790
00:44:33,260 --> 00:44:44,660
And, and I realized that like the, uh, the old, the old three horizon way of thinking as explained, as explained for vendors, for software vendors by Jeffrey Moore in this book, what's it called?

791
00:44:44,740 --> 00:44:52,900
Escape velocity is probably a pretty good way for enterprises to start out, which is, uh, just to, just to like go on about that a little bit.

792
00:44:52,900 --> 00:45:04,640
Like the idea is that the reason large software vendors or large technology companies suffer, one of the reasons is because they always sacrifice, um, short-term gains.

793
00:45:04,940 --> 00:45:10,140
Uh, they always, sorry, they always sacrifice long-term R and D investment for short-term gains.

794
00:45:10,140 --> 00:45:12,280
So they're always worried about the next 12 months.

795
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,020
And, and the, I even phrased that wrong.

796
00:45:16,380 --> 00:45:19,700
They, it's easy for them to spend stuff on like three years out, right?

797
00:45:19,700 --> 00:45:21,560
Like on moonshots and experimental stuff.

798
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:23,700
Cause it's actually really cheap just to do R and D.

799
00:45:23,700 --> 00:45:27,320
Like you just get a team of five people and have them go sort stuff out.

800
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:33,240
But what's really expensive is something that's like going to be come to market in the next two or so years.

801
00:45:33,780 --> 00:45:41,980
Uh, and, and something that like makes no profit or money right now, but you've just got to like burn a bunch of money to get to market and get the market fit and do everything right.

802
00:45:42,180 --> 00:45:47,180
And instead you'll just, as a software vendor, keep selling the same thing over and over again, cause it brings in profit.

803
00:45:47,380 --> 00:45:58,340
But then what happens is by the time a new, uh, a new way of doing something comes along because you've been sacrificing your short-term thing, you haven't worked on that next new thing that you can just slot in there really easily.

804
00:45:58,340 --> 00:46:06,320
So he has this whole sort of like, it's actually pretty direct for a business book, a whole way of setting up your process.

805
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,180
So you pay attention to those middle things, the second horizon.

806
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:15,380
And you don't, uh, you don't find yourself like, uh, lacking for a, uh, a new technology there.

807
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:17,780
And so how do you apply that to the enterprise space?

808
00:46:17,780 --> 00:46:26,540
Like, I think, I think if you kind of like read through that book and you kind of as recommendations, you can start applying that to the enterprise area where like, so I've got these three tranches of applications.

809
00:46:26,540 --> 00:46:32,580
I've got like my experimental labs or whatever stuff that probably are not ready for production.

810
00:46:32,580 --> 00:46:33,880
And that's always really easy.

811
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:37,700
That's just like a two, $5 million budget that I spend if that a year.

812
00:46:37,700 --> 00:46:39,560
And that's just like, that's fun stuff.

813
00:46:39,860 --> 00:46:44,440
And then I've got my, my present, how I make money right today stuff.

814
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:53,620
And I, as management had to set up a structure where it's actually okay to start developing businesses and therefore software that's not making any money currently.

815
00:46:53,900 --> 00:47:03,100
And I have to really make sure that the way that we manage our portfolio is aware of the fact that at one point, the way we make money nowadays is not going to be effective.

816
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:07,400
It's like, it's like, when you explain it like this, it all seems to make sense.

817
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:08,520
Yep.

818
00:47:08,740 --> 00:47:17,620
But the, the, the, the point is the management has to set up structures such that they actually behave that way and don't, don't just give it lip service to it.

819
00:47:19,380 --> 00:47:19,740
Yeah.

820
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:28,740
Do you think, you know, so as you're thinking about that, I think one reason when you and I were talking about this, it was, you know, it's not even to say that certain apps won't end up in these platforms.

821
00:47:28,740 --> 00:47:34,320
But is that the place you start versus saying, as you said, you're looking at certain applications that make sense to migrate?

822
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:41,960
Do you look at the things that, you know, what are some of your rules of thumb that might say, look, if your app already goes through a CICD pipeline, it might be a good fit.

823
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:44,140
I feel like I'm doing the Jeff Foxworthy redneck thing.

824
00:47:44,340 --> 00:47:48,700
But, you know, if, you know, what are those things that we can say is a 12 factor?

825
00:47:48,820 --> 00:47:51,460
Has it been written in the last three years using a modern language?

826
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:56,920
I mean, there's some things you can potentially do versus, I don't think I start by trying to figure out how to containerize Siebel.

827
00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:00,060
Like, that's probably not my first thing I go after.

828
00:48:00,620 --> 00:48:03,220
So, you know, where do you start to hit those thresholds?

829
00:48:03,220 --> 00:48:05,040
And this may only be a 12 month journey.

830
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:06,540
You might get the skills in house.

831
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:08,220
You might start recognizing patterns.

832
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:12,720
So now, you know, as people start doing these things, you do start to recognize the right patterns.

833
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:13,760
You start to see.

834
00:48:13,900 --> 00:48:17,680
And then when you start, then you put that perspective on some of your existing workloads.

835
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:18,920
You might say, you know what?

836
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:22,740
This is when we're just going to leave put because something that might have looked attractive 12 months ago.

837
00:48:22,740 --> 00:48:27,440
I know what it means now to run efficiently in these platforms and where we would take advantage of it.

838
00:48:27,540 --> 00:48:31,280
We wouldn't get any benefit here versus just boiling the ocean to start with.

839
00:48:31,380 --> 00:48:35,780
And I would think most people don't look at these platforms and start with a boil the ocean approach.

840
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:49,600
That are there things, you know, from your advice that you would think that say, like, if I'm doing a slight checklist to get started, these are ones that feel like these are going to get you a good sense of taking use of these platforms and prepare you to do migration later on.

841
00:48:49,940 --> 00:48:55,700
Yeah, I mean, to your point of what you're alluding to, I feel like there's two things.

842
00:48:55,780 --> 00:48:58,040
One is, like, size of the application.

843
00:48:58,340 --> 00:49:04,560
Like, if it's a relatively small application, chances are higher it doesn't fit – it doesn't key off the second thing.

844
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:07,820
But chances are higher it can be pretty – you know, you can replatform it, right?

845
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:16,380
And so, you know, when I was mentioning moving hundreds or thousands of applications, I would imagine a lot of those are what we might call, like, departmental applications.

846
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:27,120
They're basically custom-written applications over some sort of, like, weekly data source or some workflow approval thing that are, like, not really complicated or sizable.

847
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:33,000
But for the individuals or teams that use them in an organization are, like, vital for what they do, right?

848
00:49:33,100 --> 00:49:38,680
Like, there's just – you know, some people would derisively call these, like, craplications or something.

849
00:49:39,180 --> 00:49:50,000
But, like, the right kind of craplication will save, like, a handful of people a ton of time and be very profitable for that group versus, like, manually having to do things.

850
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:57,800
And so, you know, and a lot of it can come down to just, like, basic, like, ETL and data manipulation and approval types of things, right?

851
00:49:57,860 --> 00:50:01,060
And so those are very valuable applications but are relatively small.

852
00:50:01,660 --> 00:50:09,680
And so, you know, to mix topics a little bit, those are a good tranche of things to pick because it's likely they'll be – you can replatform them.

853
00:50:10,060 --> 00:50:16,080
And then, two, they're small enough that you can start understanding how to do things in a cloud-native way and moving things over.

854
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:22,080
And then, three, they're actually, like, valuable and have users you can go interact with and do things with.

855
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:27,820
So they're not, like – they're not, like, fantasy projects or, like, science experiments.

856
00:50:28,020 --> 00:50:44,280
And then, I mean, the only other, like, things are just so variable that the only generalization I could hope to make is, like, the fewer dependencies to weird things the application has, probably the easier it is to replatform.

857
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:51,520
And, like, I put it that way because I'm remembering a few, like, whiteboarding sessions I've had with big organizations.

858
00:50:52,020 --> 00:51:02,920
And they'll, like, whiteboard out, like, their entire system for, like, very popular, like, web applications we interact with to do, you know, whether it's shopping or travel or whatever.

859
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:15,500
And you look at all the dependencies that the entire system has, and there's just, like, an endless amount of weird things it integrates with to just, like, you know, all the way down to, like, here's how we upgrade the images.

860
00:51:15,740 --> 00:51:20,720
And that requires this, you know, once you map it out, this very baroque process of things.

861
00:51:21,100 --> 00:51:24,920
And it's just, like, just bizarre stuff that you have to integrate with.

862
00:51:24,980 --> 00:51:31,380
So, the more and more dependencies you have outside of, like, a cloud-native environment, the more difficult it would be.

863
00:51:31,380 --> 00:51:46,620
Now, there's, like, ways around that that basically amount to, like, having API gateways and even doing things like having a strangler approach where you kind of hide this weird dependency and make it so you can kind of rot out the tree underneath and replace it over time.

864
00:51:46,620 --> 00:51:53,340
Which, again, is very commonsensical, almost nonsensical sort of advice to give people.

865
00:51:54,000 --> 00:52:02,880
But, yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it is just, like, choosing those early wins that will let you learn how to do something on the platform.

866
00:52:03,420 --> 00:52:07,740
And then after that point, you left this bucket of stuff that, like, isn't really easy to move over.

867
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:23,340
And you just have to, like, systematically choose, like, you almost take a book out of, like, the Toyota production system way of thinking is, like, don't really, or I should say consultants in that area, don't worry about how we're going to do it.

868
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:29,920
Give me, like, the top three things as an organization you would like to do and problems you would like to solve.

869
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:35,320
And then let's go solve those issues and see if these new technologies can help us with that, right?

870
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:47,140
Like, and, like, maybe you can't run it on a new cloud-native platform, but you can use a lot of the processes and thinking and the people, the soft skills and culture to solve that problem.

871
00:52:47,540 --> 00:52:51,680
And then eventually move it to a new technology if it makes sense.

872
00:52:51,840 --> 00:53:00,580
But, you know, as ever, like, it seems like the important technology is, like, the meatware technology, all the thought technology, if you will.

873
00:53:00,740 --> 00:53:11,640
And so I think from a portfolio management perspective, it's important to go to the business and have them say, like, the big problems they want to solve and then go and investigate how to solve those problems.

874
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:16,160
And don't necessarily start with, like, step one, install a cloud-native platform.

875
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:21,380
Like, look at the process that you're using to solve that problem and how people are organizing around it.

876
00:53:21,780 --> 00:53:27,060
And then it's sort of like, you know, eventually you'll get to using a platform if that makes sense.

877
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:32,180
And if it doesn't, you'll save yourself some hassle, but you'll solve your process problem in the meantime.

878
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:35,080
Yeah, no, that sounds good.

879
00:53:35,240 --> 00:53:37,620
I think the key is everyone wants to run fast now.

880
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:41,500
You're getting asked to run fast now, but it's got to come down to, is it adding value?

881
00:53:41,860 --> 00:53:44,600
Am I doing this just for the sake of it because it's fun?

882
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:44,980
And you know what?

883
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:46,440
And do those for small R&D things.

884
00:53:46,500 --> 00:53:47,620
We should be having fun.

885
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:48,820
We should be experimenting.

886
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:51,280
I guess don't experiment with crazy stuff.

887
00:53:51,380 --> 00:54:00,940
And to some extent, make sure there's value before you embark on a nine-month effort to replatform some core system just to get it into your, even your Pivotal Cloud Foundry environment.

888
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:03,820
I don't want those things if it's not going to add value to your company.

889
00:54:04,100 --> 00:54:07,500
I mean, maybe that's blasphemy to say, but I'm not quoted, so I don't have to worry about sales.

890
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:10,760
You should be putting things in there that add value to you.

891
00:54:10,940 --> 00:54:13,500
And everything else should be taking, be on the back burner.

892
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:17,140
And I think if more vendors took that approach, we'd have less confused customers.

893
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:24,740
Yeah, and I think, you know, it's always this weird line of skirting the bimodal razor, right?

894
00:54:25,180 --> 00:54:29,940
Which, I don't know, I'm still undecided about, like, the goodness or badness of that.

895
00:54:30,020 --> 00:54:32,160
That would be another good discussion topic at some point.

896
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:38,500
But to some extent, it's about prioritization.

897
00:54:39,180 --> 00:54:47,080
And I think when it comes to brand-new applications, Greenfield applications, it's just like, yeah, obviously you do them in a cloud-native way.

898
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:49,360
So that's a solved issue.

899
00:54:49,600 --> 00:55:05,700
And I think on that topic, you know, I don't know if people would be surprised, but to put it another way, there is an endless opportunity for profitable Greenfield application development in most large organizations, right?

900
00:55:05,700 --> 00:55:15,260
Like, you may be saddled by legacy applications, but there's always a new application that you could develop that would make your customers' lives or users' lives better, right?

901
00:55:15,500 --> 00:55:16,880
Or to your strangler point.

902
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:19,700
I mean, there's stuff that you can do around the edges of your existing systems.

903
00:55:19,860 --> 00:55:20,600
They're not silos.

904
00:55:20,820 --> 00:55:26,880
Like, go put a great gateway in front of it so that now your mobile users don't have to be on the VPN to enter their timesheet.

905
00:55:27,220 --> 00:55:28,300
My gosh, you'd be a hero.

906
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:35,760
So use these platforms to augment existing systems versus your first thought being, how do I move this system to that platform?

907
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:36,540
Right, right.

908
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:38,340
And, you know, I should put a link to this.

909
00:55:39,020 --> 00:55:43,120
There's a good, as always, there's a good Jeff Bezos thing here.

910
00:55:43,220 --> 00:55:47,840
It's something about, like, there was some big discussion about rewriting and replatforming.

911
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:59,120
And then he printed out and made everyone read this, like, three-page memo from some, like, Navy nuclear reactor scientist that was basically saying, like, people love debating technical problems.

912
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:04,340
And so let's have a framing for theoretic solutions and pragmatic solutions.

913
00:56:05,300 --> 00:56:20,160
And, like, it's actually – and the point of the memo, as far as I could tell, was the only people – it's translated into this discussion – is the only people who should really discuss replatforming and rewriting are the people who are going to actually do the work.

914
00:56:20,720 --> 00:56:28,240
Everyone else should not be involved in that conversation because it turns out to be more than just theoretic, right?

915
00:56:28,240 --> 00:56:30,840
And it's – but it is a good framing for that.

916
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:39,560
And I think, you know, I think that's – the point you said is kind of a good way of leaving it is, like, so you've got all these new applications.

917
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:42,880
And then replatform the ones that you can.

918
00:56:43,100 --> 00:56:43,840
That makes sense.

919
00:56:44,260 --> 00:56:52,780
And then extend and sort of wrap APIs and all this extension stuff around the other legacy applications.

920
00:56:53,380 --> 00:56:56,620
And then the very last one is actually rewriting things.

921
00:56:56,620 --> 00:56:59,920
And you really only rewrite things if you really need to.

922
00:56:59,920 --> 00:57:06,580
Otherwise, it's probably a good idea to just write brand new things around it instead of rewriting it.

923
00:57:06,980 --> 00:57:19,760
And my theory is a lot of what that ends up looking like is – and this is why microservices to word salad it, like buzzword salad, it becomes so valuable – is a lot of it ends up being – instead of rewriting the legacy stuff,

924
00:57:19,820 --> 00:57:26,740
you figure out how to provide services around the legacy applications that you have that new applications are written on,

925
00:57:26,860 --> 00:57:30,540
which is sort of a high-level overview of Strangler stuff.

926
00:57:31,300 --> 00:57:33,540
No, I think that's such an exciting – I don't know.

927
00:57:33,580 --> 00:57:34,420
I like that development.

928
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:37,240
Like, look, put Spring Cloud Dataflow in front of your database.

929
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:38,460
It doesn't mean you have to change your database.

930
00:57:38,860 --> 00:57:41,720
It means you can do some things with streaming data or processing.

931
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:45,220
There's just – I like that idea instead of saying it's all or nothing.

932
00:57:45,700 --> 00:57:49,900
I either completely rebuild this thing or, you know, I'm stuck with it.

933
00:57:50,060 --> 00:57:50,620
No, you're not.

934
00:57:51,060 --> 00:57:52,260
Again, work on what matters.

935
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:53,640
Small scope.

936
00:57:53,740 --> 00:57:54,900
It's for microservices, DevOps.

937
00:57:55,060 --> 00:57:56,260
Let's keep going with your word salad.

938
00:57:57,040 --> 00:58:00,240
You know, having the stakeholders actually involved in these processes.

939
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:01,740
Again, do the work that matters.

940
00:58:01,820 --> 00:58:07,500
Use the platforms to help you get there faster while at the same time not extinguishing the joy of programming your devs have.

941
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:08,960
You should be using stuff that's fun.

942
00:58:09,660 --> 00:58:13,260
But let's not lose sight of the fact that you're in a business to actually make money.

943
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:14,020
Yeah.

944
00:58:14,220 --> 00:58:26,100
And then as a final thing, I think it's probably the easiest people to convince to pick up the habit of flossing are someone – people who don't have any more teeth, right?

945
00:58:26,460 --> 00:58:32,960
And so, you know, if you find yourself mired in all this legacy stuff – I forget how you were putting it earlier.

946
00:58:33,040 --> 00:58:35,920
Not to be all, like, you know, snarky and pedantic about it.

947
00:58:35,940 --> 00:58:41,820
But, like, this is a good reminder that you should try not to get yourself in this trap in the future, right?

948
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:51,660
Like, you should develop the good habits, like, you know, test coverage and, like, having good portfolio management, all these things that prevent this problem from happening in the future.

949
00:58:51,740 --> 00:59:00,260
Which is – it doesn't help you with your current issues, but hopefully it's motivation that you can have to avoid creating that problem for yourself in the future.

950
00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:01,480
Absolutely.

951
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:02,180
All right.

952
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:02,740
Good discussion.

953
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:03,200
Yeah.

954
00:59:03,300 --> 00:59:08,300
So, you know, and also this goes into our little self-serving ad at the end.

955
00:59:08,300 --> 00:59:13,640
Like, I think we announced most all of the talks for the SpringOne platform conference.

956
00:59:13,940 --> 00:59:14,620
We did.

957
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:20,760
There's a good melange of, like, Greenfield stuff and legacy and all sorts of things in there.

958
00:59:20,820 --> 00:59:30,860
I was looking through them, and there's several sessions in there that kind of go over large companies figuring out – large organizations figuring out how to deal with legacy and do cloud native and things like that.

959
00:59:31,660 --> 00:59:34,080
Like, there's one by Matt Curry at Allstate.

960
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:39,460
I'll have to see what it's about, but it's basically managing multiple pipelines and managing multiple things.

961
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:54,200
And then we'll also have, like, Brian Gregory from Express Scripts talking there and all sorts of other people who – among the code level stuff, there's a good track of how to think about enterprise architecture and management and even the business side of things going on there.

962
00:59:54,320 --> 01:00:04,060
And we just got a bunch of discount codes, or at least some people did, that we can get – so you can get – if you go – so SpringOne platform is August 1st to 4th.

963
01:00:04,060 --> 01:00:05,900
And I'll put a link to this in the show notes.

964
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:08,480
If you just search for SpringOne platform, you'll find it.

965
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:17,500
But if you register, you can use the code Pivotal-Coté-300 to get – you probably can guess this – $300 off registration.

966
01:00:18,300 --> 01:00:21,320
But there's a little special for podcast listeners there.

967
01:00:21,500 --> 01:00:28,980
But I'll be there talking about, like, my DevOps talk, like how it's going and how regular people can start using it.

968
01:00:29,460 --> 01:00:31,400
And there's a whole lot of other good talks there.

969
01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:35,540
But most of the things that we talk about in this podcast will show up there as a topic.

970
01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:37,380
And you'll get to talk with people face-to-face.

971
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:38,340
Yeah.

972
01:00:38,460 --> 01:00:39,800
Yeah, really impressive session list.

973
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:43,660
If you use my code, PivotalSuroder3,000, I'll give you $3,000 off.

974
01:00:43,820 --> 01:00:45,520
So that's – no, it doesn't work that way.

975
01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:45,760
Yeah, that works.

976
01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:46,960
Suck it, Coté.

977
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:47,780
Yeah, it's a bit better.

978
01:00:48,620 --> 01:00:49,660
That would be awesome.

979
01:00:50,020 --> 01:00:50,700
That would be awesome.

980
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:52,260
But, yeah, no, check out that session list.

981
01:00:52,260 --> 01:00:56,000
I'm, you know, hey, as someone who's new to Spring, I can't wait to go to this thing.

982
01:00:56,080 --> 01:01:00,420
Because not only is it Spring stuff, it's Cloud Foundry stuff, it's DevOps, it's Agile project management.

983
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:02,060
You could be a data scientist.

984
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:02,900
You could be a PM.

985
01:01:03,300 --> 01:01:04,580
You could be all sorts of things.

986
01:01:04,840 --> 01:01:07,680
You're going to find interesting things in a conference like this.

987
01:01:07,780 --> 01:01:09,240
And, you know, I tweeted this out today.

988
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:11,320
But things are changing so fast.

989
01:01:11,420 --> 01:01:14,020
I want people to stop and invest in themselves a little bit.

990
01:01:14,020 --> 01:01:21,540
Take three days and learn from some of the smartest people I know on just what's going on versus, hey, I know I picked up a book on vacation.

991
01:01:21,660 --> 01:01:22,360
I read some stuff.

992
01:01:22,460 --> 01:01:23,480
I'm keeping it up with blogs.

993
01:01:23,780 --> 01:01:25,160
That's not sustained learning.

994
01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:29,960
Like, spoil yourself a little bit and take a deep breath and just learn new stuff.

995
01:01:30,100 --> 01:01:33,000
That, I think, reinvigorates all of us to go back to our day jobs.

996
01:01:33,900 --> 01:01:34,120
Yep.

997
01:01:34,420 --> 01:01:34,740
Yeah.

998
01:01:34,900 --> 01:01:36,000
It'll be fun stuff.

999
01:01:36,620 --> 01:01:40,040
Well, with that, this has been the Pivotal podcast.

1000
01:01:40,900 --> 01:01:49,720
You can, as always, you can find it at pivotal.io slash podcast or by searching in iTunes for, I think if you just search for Pivotal, you'll find it actually.

1001
01:01:50,580 --> 01:01:52,940
And we'll, we'll see everyone next time.

1002
01:01:53,020 --> 01:01:55,180
You can, you can feel free to reach out to us.

1003
01:01:55,260 --> 01:02:00,620
I'm, I'm Coté in Twitter or just Coté at pivotal.io or you can email podcast at pivotal.io.

1004
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:01,800
How about yourself?

1005
01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:02,920
Yep.

1006
01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:06,220
You can find me at, at rseroder or rseroder at pivotal.io.

1007
01:02:06,620 --> 01:02:07,440
Well, that's great.

1008
01:02:07,540 --> 01:02:08,920
Well, we'll see everyone next time.