1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:01,920 Well, hey, everybody. 2 00:00:02,660 --> 00:00:05,280 First, I thought I'd have another excuse to yell into the microphone. 3 00:00:06,180 --> 00:00:09,940 And third, I thought I would do a little bit of a reboot of the podcast here. 4 00:00:10,020 --> 00:00:15,620 It's been a while since I've podcasted, and we haven't really done very many Pivotal podcasts 5 00:00:15,620 --> 00:00:16,060 recently. 6 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:23,140 But we have a new person who I've been here at Pivotal who, I don't know, I'd say some 7 00:00:23,140 --> 00:00:24,940 people who listen to this podcast will know him already. 8 00:00:24,940 --> 00:00:32,320 But I was talking with him recently and thinking, oh, we should have a podcast buddy show that 9 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:32,700 we do. 10 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:34,140 And so here we are. 11 00:00:34,220 --> 00:00:36,580 We'll still call it the Pivotal Conversations. 12 00:00:37,420 --> 00:00:42,560 And my plan is to just do the usual format of, well, at least usual for things I listen 13 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:47,440 to, where we go over just stuff we think is interesting and germane to the topic area that 14 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:47,900 we have. 15 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:52,820 And then every now and then, if we can wangle it out, we'll interview some people. 16 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:57,280 This episode is just me and the co-host. 17 00:00:57,540 --> 00:00:58,560 Why don't you introduce yourself? 18 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:00,680 Yes, thank you. 19 00:01:00,740 --> 00:01:01,780 This is Richard Siroter. 20 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:02,660 I'm happy to be here. 21 00:01:02,740 --> 00:01:05,680 I just joined Pivotal, I guess, what is it, eight weeks or so ago. 22 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:07,140 So my hazing period's done. 23 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:08,200 I've recovered. 24 00:01:08,740 --> 00:01:14,080 And I'm going to be excited to help with our messaging, as with Coté and working with the 25 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:15,420 Pivotal Cloud Foundry team. 26 00:01:15,580 --> 00:01:18,940 And I've done a number of things in the past, which hopefully give me a little bit of empathy 27 00:01:18,940 --> 00:01:24,320 for all the poor folks who build and run legacy systems or try to pick a cloud provider and 28 00:01:24,320 --> 00:01:27,640 hopefully now try to move up a level and actually ship meaningful apps. 29 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:30,620 Now, you're up there in Seattle, right? 30 00:01:31,220 --> 00:01:32,320 I am, Cloud City. 31 00:01:32,580 --> 00:01:35,160 Man, it's like really raining down here in Austin. 32 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:37,940 I don't know how it's going up there in hot air balloon land. 33 00:01:38,420 --> 00:01:40,680 But, you know, I think we might have switched the weather. 34 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:41,780 We've got a little mix up. 35 00:01:42,300 --> 00:01:43,920 I know, 75 and sunny here. 36 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:44,800 It's the apocalypse. 37 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:46,000 Oh, yeah. 38 00:01:46,100 --> 00:01:47,540 It's just raining cats and dogs. 39 00:01:47,620 --> 00:01:49,220 There was a picture of the local dam here. 40 00:01:49,220 --> 00:01:52,960 And it looked like, you know, maybe there was a zombie outbreak and someone wasn't manning 41 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:53,420 the station. 42 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:54,760 Just water flowing everywhere. 43 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:55,420 It's crazy. 44 00:01:56,780 --> 00:01:58,540 Here's the other thing I wanted to ask you. 45 00:01:58,660 --> 00:02:00,200 I was cutting up a watermelon earlier. 46 00:02:00,420 --> 00:02:03,040 You guys get a lot of watermelons up there or just like cranberries? 47 00:02:03,860 --> 00:02:06,700 It's a little more cranberry, a little more granola here in the Pacific Northwest. 48 00:02:07,140 --> 00:02:07,360 Hmm. 49 00:02:07,780 --> 00:02:08,040 Yeah. 50 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:12,000 I'll have to bring some watermelons next time I get up there because we've got tons 51 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:12,700 of them down here. 52 00:02:12,920 --> 00:02:13,600 They're delicious. 53 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:15,980 It's, you know how to pick a watermelon? 54 00:02:17,180 --> 00:02:17,860 I don't. 55 00:02:17,980 --> 00:02:20,960 Are you supposed to shake it or tap it and hear your echo in there? 56 00:02:21,100 --> 00:02:21,380 What's the... 57 00:02:21,380 --> 00:02:21,660 That's right. 58 00:02:21,740 --> 00:02:23,860 There's two things other than price. 59 00:02:24,180 --> 00:02:28,580 And maybe this will be, we'll see if we come up with the recurring bit tips that have 60 00:02:28,580 --> 00:02:29,700 nothing to do with computers. 61 00:02:30,020 --> 00:02:32,840 We'll call them analog transformation tips. 62 00:02:33,740 --> 00:02:34,720 But yeah, that's right. 63 00:02:34,780 --> 00:02:35,620 You want to tap it. 64 00:02:35,980 --> 00:02:41,260 And the test is this very ambiguous KPI called, you want it to sound hollow, whatever that 65 00:02:41,260 --> 00:02:41,580 means. 66 00:02:41,980 --> 00:02:45,400 And then also apparently you want to make sure there's a big yellow spot on it where it's 67 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:47,100 like rested on the ground or something. 68 00:02:47,300 --> 00:02:50,420 So you want to get a big yellow spot and make sure it sounds hollow. 69 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:52,300 So now you know. 70 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:53,380 That's right. 71 00:02:53,460 --> 00:02:54,040 Half the battle. 72 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,560 So have you been following the serverless summit stuff? 73 00:02:58,340 --> 00:02:59,320 I did a little bit. 74 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:00,460 It was fascinating last week. 75 00:03:00,540 --> 00:03:04,940 Obviously you and I were at the CF summit a bit, but it's this season where there's always 76 00:03:04,940 --> 00:03:06,300 dueling conferences going on. 77 00:03:06,340 --> 00:03:07,700 I think it was the first time they did that. 78 00:03:07,860 --> 00:03:12,540 So it was interesting to hear some of the thoughts coming out now around whatever serverless 79 00:03:12,540 --> 00:03:13,840 computing means nowadays. 80 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:18,860 It actually still has a fairly meaningful definition versus cloud and DevOps and other things that 81 00:03:18,860 --> 00:03:20,480 have been corrupted beyond belief. 82 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,320 So what would you describe serverless as? 83 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:24,920 Like what's going on there? 84 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:31,020 I mean, it's typically seen as the layer that's almost above what you even see as this traditional 85 00:03:31,020 --> 00:03:36,140 PaaS or what we might think of as Cloud Foundry, which is there's no concept of the infrastructure 86 00:03:36,140 --> 00:03:36,560 underneath. 87 00:03:36,700 --> 00:03:37,900 It's only it's deploying functions. 88 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:42,440 It's saying, you know, the unit of compute isn't really an app, let alone a virtual machine 89 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:42,940 or container. 90 00:03:43,060 --> 00:03:44,380 The unit of compute is a function. 91 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,460 And so I deploy functions to a fabric and it auto scales underneath. 92 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:50,440 It's pay per use. 93 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:55,560 If you look at public examples like Google Cloud Functions or obviously Amazon Lambda or 94 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:57,540 the new stuff that Azure has as well. 95 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:03,540 It's about like this might run for 10 microseconds, pull from an object storage, resize an image, 96 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:05,320 put it back in and you're done. 97 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:06,400 And that's what you pay for. 98 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:07,720 So it's a different way of thinking. 99 00:04:08,140 --> 00:04:12,880 Crazy asynchronous obviously brings up all other considerations for how the hell do you 100 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:13,900 trace this thing? 101 00:04:14,300 --> 00:04:15,220 What's logging like? 102 00:04:15,260 --> 00:04:16,160 How do you do security? 103 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:21,980 I mean, it's extremely immature in concept, but clearly a powerful idea that probably complements 104 00:04:21,980 --> 00:04:23,980 more traditional full featured apps. 105 00:04:24,220 --> 00:04:24,500 All right. 106 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:28,180 It's like one of the original, I don't know, pre-cloud Cloud Visions. 107 00:04:28,180 --> 00:04:30,880 Like you remember Network.com from Sun? 108 00:04:31,300 --> 00:04:36,460 It's a big batch job grid like that was supposed to run in some Siberian data centers or 109 00:04:36,460 --> 00:04:36,840 something. 110 00:04:37,740 --> 00:04:37,880 Yeah. 111 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:39,660 I mean, again, it's going to be fit for certain things. 112 00:04:39,780 --> 00:04:45,560 I can't fathom how you're going to rewrite your Java Spring web app as a serverless thing 113 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:46,560 in that same sense. 114 00:04:46,660 --> 00:04:50,920 I mean, we have ways to go before it probably retools other things, but it opens up some 115 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,260 cool scenarios for more batch processing or a lot of one-off tasks. 116 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:54,840 Yeah. 117 00:04:55,620 --> 00:05:02,880 There's this drive almost, I don't know how to describe it, but to find the smallest unit 118 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,820 of meaningful cloud compute, right? 119 00:05:05,900 --> 00:05:11,520 Where we're like, if we package up a whole application, that's not a small enough unit. 120 00:05:11,620 --> 00:05:15,240 If we package up just like one process, is that a small enough unit? 121 00:05:15,300 --> 00:05:18,080 Or if it's just one function, is that the smallest unit? 122 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:23,900 Like at some point, we need to identify what the atomic unit of cloud compute is. 123 00:05:24,140 --> 00:05:30,480 Yeah, I believe our friend, Mr. O'Grady Redmonk had pointed out that, you know, I think he believes 124 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:32,140 the function is that lowest level. 125 00:05:32,220 --> 00:05:36,220 At some point, you are at the atom level and there's nothing more to decompose here. 126 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:40,120 So, but then you also have to take a step back and go, okay, at what point does it matter? 127 00:05:40,500 --> 00:05:43,180 Because am I going to do a Git repo per function? 128 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,780 Am I going to build up all this infrastructure just to be serverless? 129 00:05:46,900 --> 00:05:49,280 And now, what have I gotten from that? 130 00:05:49,820 --> 00:05:51,620 You know, is that making my life any easier? 131 00:05:51,740 --> 00:05:54,660 Or do I just have now new complexity I couldn't have fathomed before? 132 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:56,340 That's it to watch. 133 00:05:56,860 --> 00:05:56,980 Huh. 134 00:05:57,480 --> 00:05:58,460 Well, that's, yeah. 135 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:02,940 I mean, there's a, I'll put a link in the show notes to it, but there's a lengthy write-up 136 00:06:02,940 --> 00:06:05,380 over in the new stack of the idea of serverless. 137 00:06:05,380 --> 00:06:08,220 And, you know, I always like lots of charts. 138 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:13,400 There's even some charts in it from like big consulting firms, which is sort of exciting. 139 00:06:13,820 --> 00:06:14,800 But you can check those out. 140 00:06:15,420 --> 00:06:16,100 Very legitimizing. 141 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:16,660 That's right. 142 00:06:16,660 --> 00:06:18,140 Once you have an infograph, you're in. 143 00:06:18,140 --> 00:06:18,460 That's right. 144 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,660 As I always like to joke, I enjoy hiding behind charts. 145 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:27,160 They're a good shield to put up there, especially the bar charts with year-over-year data. 146 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:28,060 Right. 147 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:33,060 I mean, I'm trying to be careful because I'm the same person who would poo-poo people who complained 148 00:06:33,060 --> 00:06:35,840 five years ago that cloud was immature and it wouldn't do anything. 149 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:40,680 So I'm trying to avoid hypocrisy by saying serverless is just a silly fad because it probably 150 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:41,440 isn't. 151 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:43,100 But at the same time, it is early, right? 152 00:06:43,140 --> 00:06:46,140 This stuff's probably years away from being really mainstream. 153 00:06:46,500 --> 00:06:50,180 So everybody who's listening should be paying attention to this and you should be experimenting 154 00:06:50,180 --> 00:06:50,840 with this. 155 00:06:50,840 --> 00:06:56,560 I don't expect that it's going to redefine how enterprise IT or IT actually functions anytime 156 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:58,280 in the next, you know, five years. 157 00:06:58,740 --> 00:06:58,900 Sure. 158 00:06:59,440 --> 00:06:59,600 Yeah. 159 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:01,920 I mean, as you were pointing out, there's a lot of... 160 00:07:02,660 --> 00:07:07,440 If you sit down and write down all the operational requirements and even developer requirements, 161 00:07:07,660 --> 00:07:10,500 development requirements you need, you've got to make sure you... 162 00:07:10,500 --> 00:07:15,220 Those things integrate well with the new concepts that you have, which to your point, no doubt, 163 00:07:15,420 --> 00:07:18,980 like if serverless stuff remains a thing, that'll happen. 164 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:22,500 But it's just a matter of making sure that what's... 165 00:07:22,500 --> 00:07:23,980 I don't know, that you have what you need. 166 00:07:25,020 --> 00:07:25,400 That's right. 167 00:07:26,220 --> 00:07:32,880 So also, have you been covering the Google and Oracle case that recently concluded basically 168 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:33,700 in Google's favor? 169 00:07:33,860 --> 00:07:38,840 Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that means we can implement APIs now in the 170 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:39,660 clear, right? 171 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:40,540 Yes. 172 00:07:40,540 --> 00:07:45,340 The world breathed a collective sigh of relief that APIs are once again freed from the shackles 173 00:07:45,340 --> 00:07:47,120 of our Oracle compatriots. 174 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,660 So what was interesting, I was reading some news today where the Oracle lawyer was actually 175 00:07:50,660 --> 00:07:55,320 saying that this actually spells the death of open source because now licenses don't mean 176 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:55,860 anything. 177 00:07:56,140 --> 00:08:00,400 And, you know, GPL and others, you know, now it's open sources are free for all, which of 178 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:06,620 course seems like that's a bit of hyperbole from a losing side, but it seems like it's 179 00:08:06,620 --> 00:08:07,400 good news. 180 00:08:07,660 --> 00:08:12,340 These things always become tricky because it's probably not as boogeyman as one side positions 181 00:08:12,340 --> 00:08:19,100 the other as, but it seems like it's a good blow for defining and using APIs and not locking 182 00:08:19,100 --> 00:08:23,080 these things down and screwing up a very large community that's built up around this stuff. 183 00:08:23,460 --> 00:08:23,600 Yeah. 184 00:08:23,780 --> 00:08:28,720 You know, you're making me remember the, what was the name of the company that was like suing 185 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:34,000 all the Linux people with like the, uh, the, the, the hotshot CEO at the helm who is always 186 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:35,360 just saying crazy stuff. 187 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:44,020 It was one of, one of the Unixes and, uh, yeah, like, like to us, I remember it seems 188 00:08:44,020 --> 00:08:50,700 like the largest impact fear of that, I don't know, lawsuit, legal shenanigans, just like 189 00:08:50,700 --> 00:08:55,000 with this one was not so much, well, for us at vendors, it's a big deal, but it's more 190 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,700 that if you, if you go to like all of the users, the buyers, the enterprises, 191 00:08:58,700 --> 00:09:03,520 out there, the large organizations, uh, you know, if once they start freaking out about 192 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:07,820 implementing interfaces, like all those enterprise Java beans that are out there, those are just 193 00:09:07,820 --> 00:09:09,160 interfaces that have been implemented. 194 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:15,100 It does, it does start to have a, uh, much larger impact of fear essentially. 195 00:09:15,660 --> 00:09:20,480 And, uh, you know, I was, I was at, uh, they have, uh, they had OzCon here in Austin, uh, 196 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:25,020 a couple of weeks ago and, you know, I don't really know the answer to this, but I was looking 197 00:09:25,020 --> 00:09:30,620 around and, you know, we had a, um, a booth there and lots of people had booths and, you 198 00:09:30,620 --> 00:09:32,140 know, OzCon being the, what was it? 199 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,120 The, the, the open source conference, I guess is what it stands for. 200 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:40,420 Uh, and, uh, you know, out of the corner of your eyes, you could see like the usual open 201 00:09:40,420 --> 00:09:45,220 source people like juggling and wearing their utility kilts, but it seemed like everything 202 00:09:45,220 --> 00:09:47,040 there was pretty normal and mainstream. 203 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:51,420 And, and it made me wonder, like, like one, obviously sort of like the open source world 204 00:09:51,420 --> 00:09:55,920 is mainstream, but it made me reflect that like, there's not really that much like fire 205 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:57,500 branded open source stuff. 206 00:09:57,500 --> 00:10:02,720 So for, you know, and, and, and the reason I think of this is like, I guess if you had 207 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:11,520 a very, uh, literal and well, not even literal, you had a very classical read of the, uh, the 208 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:16,920 GPL, like this lawsuit would seem to damage open source because. 209 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:22,080 Essentially, like, uh, if I remember the GPL, it's basically like if you do your object 210 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:25,820 linking, which used to make sense way back when, but has been taken to mean that if you 211 00:10:25,820 --> 00:10:31,500 like basically, uh, at compile time, link your code to something, then, uh, all sorts of things 212 00:10:31,500 --> 00:10:37,420 come into effect and, uh, you know, implementing an API would sort of enact that, which I guess 213 00:10:37,420 --> 00:10:41,780 if you had this weird reading of open source would think that you were destroying open source 214 00:10:41,780 --> 00:10:42,720 as a consequence. 215 00:10:43,100 --> 00:10:48,860 But then like, there's a lot of other licenses out there beside the GPL. 216 00:10:49,020 --> 00:10:53,500 And in fact, like invoking them again, I'm sure our, our friends at red monk could run 217 00:10:53,500 --> 00:10:59,200 some numbers for us, but like, I'm not sure there's that many, uh, large projects over 218 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,600 the past 15 years that follow GPL stuff. 219 00:11:01,700 --> 00:11:04,240 A lot of them seem to go with more permissive licenses. 220 00:11:04,680 --> 00:11:09,960 So it seems like everything will be dandy, but that is a, I don't know, that is a bit of 221 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:11,780 a relief that now you can implement interfaces. 222 00:11:12,500 --> 00:11:13,960 Everyone can start compiling again. 223 00:11:14,680 --> 00:11:14,920 That's right. 224 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:20,520 Until the next thing pops up and Amazon tries to copyright the AWS API or some other thing. 225 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:25,800 Yeah, that's, that's, that's always been out there on the, uh, the ambiguous horizon. 226 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:26,680 Right. 227 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:27,820 Good point. 228 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:32,300 So speaking of that, there was another like thing that's interesting in the, uh, the cloud 229 00:11:32,300 --> 00:11:35,480 native world that, uh, Salesforce is going to be running. 230 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:39,860 Was it, is it all of it or, or just some of a large part of it on AWS? 231 00:11:40,460 --> 00:11:44,560 No, it's only, and I'm only, I'm doing air quotes right now, but it's only like $400 million 232 00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:45,240 worth. 233 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:51,240 So it's not, it's not all of Salesforce retooling, but it was, uh, you know, obviously bought Heroku 234 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:53,340 years ago, which runs entirely on AWS. 235 00:11:53,340 --> 00:11:57,260 And I think this was a, we're going to do a lot of our new work on AWS. 236 00:11:57,260 --> 00:12:01,560 So some interesting, you know, things you think about through that a, that means that 237 00:12:01,560 --> 00:12:05,240 the other cloud providers didn't win that business, which is always something people talk about. 238 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:10,140 Then there's the, you know, what are the longterm plays of, you know, is Salesforce, you know, 239 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:14,660 want to pull out from, you know, the hyper-invested Oracle stack that they have today and they're 240 00:12:14,660 --> 00:12:15,220 trying to run. 241 00:12:15,300 --> 00:12:19,380 They had a big curve, you know, big blow up a few weeks ago where one of their instances 242 00:12:19,380 --> 00:12:23,700 was down for a number of hours and they actually lost four hours of data, which is pretty unusual 243 00:12:23,700 --> 00:12:26,700 for a, for such a mature provider like that. 244 00:12:26,780 --> 00:12:30,300 And, you know, maybe it's maybe looking at diversifying a bit, which is interesting. 245 00:12:30,580 --> 00:12:35,000 You know, there was a big love fest between Salesforce and Microsoft a year or so back. 246 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,860 And you wondered if those two were really going to get a little bit closer. 247 00:12:37,860 --> 00:12:42,180 So just interesting to see one thing from the CF summit that had popped up was I hadn't 248 00:12:42,180 --> 00:12:46,620 known that Salesforce was one of the first ones that looked at Cloud Foundry as a platform 249 00:12:46,620 --> 00:12:50,660 and ended up deciding to go the Heroku route because they wanted to own their destiny there. 250 00:12:50,820 --> 00:12:55,380 But how the world might've been different had they been the first deployment of CF for 251 00:12:55,380 --> 00:12:57,420 running force and some of those systems. 252 00:12:57,800 --> 00:12:57,900 Yeah. 253 00:12:57,980 --> 00:13:03,320 I think one of their buddies, SAP is using Cloud Foundry in a lot of their new stuff underneath, 254 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:04,000 if I recall. 255 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:04,960 So that's right. 256 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:05,440 That's interesting. 257 00:13:05,560 --> 00:13:05,720 Yeah. 258 00:13:05,780 --> 00:13:10,700 And it's also, you know, I don't know much about the internals of Salesforce, but it strikes 259 00:13:10,700 --> 00:13:14,200 me that they probably have an architecture. 260 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:19,640 I mean, they have many, many applications, but they probably have several large applications 261 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:24,920 that have an architecture that one might consider legacy, if you will, or close enough to a lot 262 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,100 of the, a lot of the large organizations we talk with and they want to know how to migrate 263 00:13:28,100 --> 00:13:28,620 to cloud. 264 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:33,560 And, uh, you know, like if I, I forget if Oracle still, I mean, if Salesforce still has a lot 265 00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:37,440 of Oracle in the middle of it, but I remember that was a, uh, quite a big component of it, 266 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:42,660 but it seems, it, yeah, it seems like, uh, if they, if they can manage to run, uh, what 267 00:13:42,660 --> 00:13:46,160 it was 400 million, is that maybe like one quarter's payment on that new building they're 268 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:47,440 doing down in San Francisco? 269 00:13:47,820 --> 00:13:48,220 Right. 270 00:13:48,380 --> 00:13:52,580 Like it, you know, it's probably, uh, possible to, to move things over there. 271 00:13:52,740 --> 00:13:57,880 Now that said, it's, uh, it's probably worth, you know, wondering more what applications they're 272 00:13:57,880 --> 00:13:58,180 moving. 273 00:13:58,180 --> 00:14:01,160 If it's sort of like they're, uh, they're older things or newer things. 274 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:04,080 Cause they, like I said, they've gobbled up a lot of stuff over the years. 275 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:04,920 Yeah. 276 00:14:04,940 --> 00:14:09,720 I don't recall how open they are about some of their own internal plumbing when they speak 277 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:11,200 at conferences or things like that. 278 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:15,600 But, you know, I think we're all hungry for detail, so it would be awesome to see conference 279 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:19,560 presentations over the next year or two about how did they move from some really tightly 280 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:23,460 coupled Oracle driven architecture into some more cloud native stuff on Amazon. 281 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:25,300 I would love to see that talk. 282 00:14:25,380 --> 00:14:30,160 I hope they loosen the reins on, on some of their more intelligent and, and well-spoken architects. 283 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:30,640 Yeah. 284 00:14:30,740 --> 00:14:33,880 And then it's, it's, I mean, I don't know about you, but this, it's a question that comes 285 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:34,740 up all the time. 286 00:14:34,740 --> 00:14:36,300 I mean, there's two versions of this question. 287 00:14:36,300 --> 00:14:41,920 I mean, the question is basically, uh, why would you do anything except run in, uh, in 288 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,460 Amazon and or the public cloud, right? 289 00:14:44,580 --> 00:14:48,620 You know, the, the three or four public clouds, depending on how you bucket things out. 290 00:14:49,380 --> 00:14:54,860 And, uh, you know, what, one of the versions is, well, I just gave it is, is pretty, uh, strident 291 00:14:54,860 --> 00:15:00,960 and, and, and, and, and, and another one is, is, uh, is, is phrased a little differently 292 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:09,000 is like, uh, you know, why, why would you want to run your own data centers or like what, what 293 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:10,320 are people doing exactly? 294 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:14,960 And how, how would, you know, when will, when will all the, uh, on-premises or private cloud 295 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:16,160 stuff move to public cloud? 296 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:20,500 And, and I think, uh, you know, we, we were, we were talking about this a little bit beforehand, 297 00:15:20,500 --> 00:15:25,260 but I think most of our customers run on, on vSphere. 298 00:15:25,260 --> 00:15:30,320 If I remember, I shouldn't say most, but if you were to rank them, uh, that's the number 299 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:32,420 one type of infrastructure people run on. 300 00:15:32,420 --> 00:15:36,720 And then I think maybe second is like AWS and third is probably open stack. 301 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:43,360 And it, you know, it kind of goes from there, but it is like, I, I have seen amongst, amongst 302 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:49,320 our, our, our customers, they tend to like want to install on stuff they have right now. 303 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,160 And, and there's also a lot of legacy systems they have to deal with. 304 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:56,280 Like the example I always use is, you know, if you're a big airline, you've got to like 305 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:58,800 integrate with like your reservation system. 306 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,560 And so, unless you're going to move everything at once, you're going to need some kind of 307 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:03,640 connection to that. 308 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:08,020 But, uh, you know, the, the other thing that I, that that's interesting in tracking and especially 309 00:16:08,020 --> 00:16:14,500 looking at with something as big as Salesforce moving there is, uh, maybe eventually one day 310 00:16:14,500 --> 00:16:20,260 you could just move everything like whole hog and planning out like what it is as, as far 311 00:16:20,260 --> 00:16:24,000 as new applications, it seems like it's always a good idea to look at running on public cloud, 312 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:25,500 uh, if that's possible. 313 00:16:25,620 --> 00:16:31,020 But then the real thing becomes what to do with all of your existing, you know, part of 314 00:16:31,020 --> 00:16:34,500 the bucket is legacy, but the other bucket is that thing I was describing where it's like 315 00:16:34,500 --> 00:16:40,440 legacy using applications and, and figuring out when, when, when they should move over or 316 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:40,700 not. 317 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:45,200 But, uh, yeah, it'll, it'll be interesting to track like amongst our customer base and other 318 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,440 people, like who, who's running in public versus private cloud. 319 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:53,260 And then ultimately my other, my, my other theory, or I don't know if it's a other, but my, 320 00:16:53,260 --> 00:16:59,100 my main theory is that a lot of what people want to do is like not have to be responsible 321 00:16:59,100 --> 00:17:00,140 for their infrastructure. 322 00:17:00,260 --> 00:17:05,340 And whether that means they run on premise or off premise, or it's managed or unmanaged, 323 00:17:05,340 --> 00:17:06,460 like it doesn't really matter. 324 00:17:06,620 --> 00:17:08,200 They just don't want to worry about it. 325 00:17:08,580 --> 00:17:13,740 And, and so far there aren't, I don't know, maybe enough managed service offerings or ones 326 00:17:13,740 --> 00:17:16,320 that are cheap enough that would, that would work out that way. 327 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:20,960 But it seems like most people just aren't really interested long-term dealing with infrastructure. 328 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:26,800 There's not really like, uh, it's sort of delightful in a riddle solving way and people who do it, 329 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:27,580 like, enjoy it. 330 00:17:27,620 --> 00:17:32,540 But from a big, big picture perspective of the business, like running the, uh, running the 331 00:17:32,540 --> 00:17:37,480 servers is like just about as exciting as like making sure the electrical and facilities and 332 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:38,840 plumbing is functional. 333 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:41,220 Yeah, there was a good counterpoint. 334 00:17:41,300 --> 00:17:45,780 Actually, I just read it 30 minutes ago from, uh, us recording here, but some good counterpoints 335 00:17:45,780 --> 00:17:48,960 from the serverless conference from someone who presented and she wrote a, an excellent 336 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,980 counter piece just saying, look, operations is arguably more important than ever. 337 00:17:52,980 --> 00:17:54,260 And it's hard to disagree with that. 338 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:58,860 I think what we're more or less saying though, is, you know, investing more and more in operations 339 00:17:58,860 --> 00:18:00,400 isn't super attractive. 340 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:02,760 It's that operations still matters a ton. 341 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,120 It's just, I can't afford for it to be a growing part of my budget. 342 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:08,280 So we need to be awesome at it. 343 00:18:08,420 --> 00:18:10,060 And I need tools that help me do it well. 344 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:15,000 I just can't keep plowing more and more headcount into maintaining these systems. 345 00:18:15,100 --> 00:18:19,360 I need to do more with less and I need to empower those people to do it efficient, you know, 346 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,340 efficiently with on-premises stuff, cloud stuff, whatever it is. 347 00:18:22,540 --> 00:18:24,320 So the job's probably changing. 348 00:18:24,460 --> 00:18:25,700 Ops still matters a ton. 349 00:18:25,860 --> 00:18:27,760 I just want to spend less time doing it. 350 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:28,720 Yeah. 351 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:29,120 Yeah. 352 00:18:29,220 --> 00:18:30,620 I think, I think that's definitely true. 353 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:35,760 And the other thing that, uh, that I encounter a lot, and I would encounter this a bit as 354 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,140 back, back when I was doing analyst work, we're definitely now going out to talk with large 355 00:18:39,140 --> 00:18:45,160 organizations is, uh, it almost seems like, and, and, and I would distinguish between like 356 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:51,200 operations and infrastructure, just like raw infrastructure is just getting this, the, the, 357 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:55,500 the, the, I guess the, the, the three things, your compute, your, uh, your networking and 358 00:18:55,500 --> 00:18:58,760 your storage sort of like functional and working together. 359 00:18:59,180 --> 00:19:03,960 And, uh, you know, being, being a former application developer, I just assume all this stuff is, 360 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:07,460 you know, we can sort it out all the hard work's up in the level that I used to work. 361 00:19:07,460 --> 00:19:12,860 And of course, like that's, we can just take that for granted, but, uh, you know, it seems 362 00:19:12,860 --> 00:19:17,300 like there's a certain cut line where you need to worry about the operations of the application 363 00:19:17,300 --> 00:19:19,660 and the servers, services that you're using. 364 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:24,100 But like eventually, and this is what, this is what I imagine when something as big as 365 00:19:24,100 --> 00:19:29,260 Salesforce goes into AWS, it's more like is there just isn't like this notion of like 366 00:19:29,260 --> 00:19:34,220 worrying about servers and storage and networking as much as if you had to manage all that stuff 367 00:19:34,220 --> 00:19:34,780 on your own. 368 00:19:35,020 --> 00:19:36,840 And so that sucks a huge amount out of there. 369 00:19:36,980 --> 00:19:42,560 And maybe you're still somewhat concerned about operating systems and like the, uh, your, 370 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:46,900 your, your firewall, like settings and like all this kind of stuff, but you're slowly, 371 00:19:46,900 --> 00:19:50,720 you're like carving away at that, like some sort of convicts trying to escape from the, 372 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:52,960 the prison of on-premise management. 373 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:53,560 Yeah. 374 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:55,660 I mean, I'm still moving up the stack a little bit. 375 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:59,440 Somebody is still going to have to manage Amazon EC2 instances and all those things. 376 00:19:59,540 --> 00:20:03,300 But to your point, I'm not dealing with power and cooling and requisite, you know, getting 377 00:20:03,300 --> 00:20:07,660 data center space and dealing with those things, which is complicated. 378 00:20:08,020 --> 00:20:11,020 So again, I still need, I'm going to have to run my systems. 379 00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:14,080 Even if they're serverless, somebody is running something somewhere. 380 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:18,060 So that sort of competency matters, but right. 381 00:20:18,140 --> 00:20:21,660 I think that where you're spending your time is probably going to keep differing and changing 382 00:20:21,660 --> 00:20:22,220 over time. 383 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:27,820 And, and as anyone who's ever watched a movie about either artificial intelligence or robots 384 00:20:27,820 --> 00:20:31,320 in the future, you know, you got to have some human control over that. 385 00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:32,800 Otherwise they're going to take over the world. 386 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,800 They'll just hide out down on your infrastructure and just take over. 387 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:37,840 So you got to have some governance over that. 388 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:38,580 Very important. 389 00:20:39,420 --> 00:20:44,020 No, I mean, I, I, I breakfast with a pancake bot during the CF summit and, and frankly, 390 00:20:44,140 --> 00:20:45,020 it may be a little uncomfortable. 391 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:45,840 That's right. 392 00:20:45,980 --> 00:20:49,020 We, I should have brought my, uh, my, uh, my, uh, what's his name? 393 00:20:49,100 --> 00:20:54,780 Steve, Steve Gutenberg virus stick to upload to it, to just proactively disable our, our future 394 00:20:54,780 --> 00:20:56,740 overlords, the pancake bot. 395 00:20:57,140 --> 00:20:57,540 Right. 396 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:02,080 So speaking of that, so we were at a Cloud Foundry summit, uh, last week. 397 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,960 It was like, uh, was it like three and a half, four days or so out there in Santa Clara? 398 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:08,860 It was, it was already like three cloud years ago. 399 00:21:08,860 --> 00:21:11,760 Cause it was seven days ago, but yes, it did just happen last week. 400 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:12,160 I know. 401 00:21:12,180 --> 00:21:16,920 And we, we had a, we had, we had what you might call a work cleansing by having a, the Memorial 402 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:17,580 day holiday. 403 00:21:17,580 --> 00:21:21,280 So we had a three day weekend, which sort of just, you know, washes out stuff from your 404 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:21,620 brain. 405 00:21:21,660 --> 00:21:23,980 You can just reboot when you come back there. 406 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:24,800 Exactly. 407 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:26,080 It's good to reset there. 408 00:21:26,260 --> 00:21:31,200 So I, I thought, I thought this was, uh, I think I've been to one other CF summit and, 409 00:21:31,260 --> 00:21:35,860 uh, watch the videos from the, the, the, I don't know if it was the first, 410 00:21:35,860 --> 00:21:38,700 but the one that, that Andrew Schaefer MC'd a while ago. 411 00:21:38,980 --> 00:21:42,420 So, well, on that note, first of all, that, uh, that Dr. 412 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,280 Nick guy, that's a good choice for an MC. 413 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:46,420 He should run tech conferences more often. 414 00:21:46,660 --> 00:21:48,780 I think, uh, I think that was fantastic. 415 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,400 He had all sorts of like, uh, I don't know. 416 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:56,500 He's kind of like an Australian Ricky Gervais, except like not as caustic, which is sort of 417 00:21:56,500 --> 00:21:59,060 what you want in a, uh, a conference like that. 418 00:21:59,620 --> 00:22:00,020 Right. 419 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,280 And I admired him because probably only 70% of his jokes landed, but he felt no shame. 420 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:05,700 And I admire that so much. 421 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,860 I know he didn't get caught by something that got no laughter. 422 00:22:08,980 --> 00:22:09,760 He just kept going. 423 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:10,700 And that is so awesome. 424 00:22:10,820 --> 00:22:14,280 He, he, he embodied fail fast, stand up humor. 425 00:22:14,620 --> 00:22:19,860 He just plowed on through, gathered some data and, uh, went, went on, learned, learned and 426 00:22:19,860 --> 00:22:21,680 improved as things, things progressed. 427 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:22,600 Indeed. 428 00:22:23,020 --> 00:22:27,580 So I, I, I liked this, uh, you know, what I look for in these, these summits is basically 429 00:22:27,580 --> 00:22:33,760 like, uh, essentially people who are using Cloud Foundry outing themselves, so to speak 430 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,820 and going over what they're doing in details, kind of like we were talking about, it'd be 431 00:22:36,820 --> 00:22:38,980 great to know what Salesforce is running on AWS. 432 00:22:38,980 --> 00:22:44,420 And, and I think I, I haven't done some sort of scientific study, but I think if we were 433 00:22:44,420 --> 00:22:49,520 to compare, uh, what is this 2016, 2015 and 2014, and I don't remember what happened 434 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:54,660 before that, but I think there's the most sort of, uh, uh, users and customers going 435 00:22:54,660 --> 00:22:57,640 over things and, and some of the better details out there. 436 00:22:57,700 --> 00:23:01,940 I spent a long time when I was writing stuff over the past year, looking through all the 437 00:23:01,940 --> 00:23:05,740 videos from last year to get little, little quotes and numbers and stuff like that. 438 00:23:05,740 --> 00:23:10,480 And there's a lot of good stuff in, in last years from like Humana and Lockheed and all 439 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:12,120 state and the usual sorts of people. 440 00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:16,080 But there was, there were, there were new, new people as well in the Cloud Foundry community. 441 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,820 Like, uh, Comcast was talking about what they're using. 442 00:23:18,820 --> 00:23:23,100 Like they've got something like 900 applications running in their, their Pivotal Cloud Foundry 443 00:23:23,100 --> 00:23:23,400 instance. 444 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,480 And there were also some good, even, you know, it's good to see people come back up. 445 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:33,040 Like, uh, I think over most all of the Cloud Foundry conferences core logic has come up and 446 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:37,660 it's interesting to sit down and look at, um, the year over year videos and kind of see or 447 00:23:37,660 --> 00:23:39,860 talks, I should say how it's been going for them. 448 00:23:39,940 --> 00:23:44,460 But all state came up and they gave a, uh, I guess it's a year. 449 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:48,800 I don't actually know how long they've been, um, using Cloud Foundry off the top of my head, 450 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,300 but they had some pretty good numbers about increasing productivity and, and that things 451 00:23:52,300 --> 00:23:53,260 were improving for them. 452 00:23:53,260 --> 00:23:58,080 So, you know, I think, uh, our, uh, I always want to call them Altos, but that's a whole 453 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:03,680 other company, but the, the Altoros people had a good, uh, summary of, of all these little 454 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:04,580 zingers and stuff. 455 00:24:04,580 --> 00:24:08,760 And then, uh, one, one of our coworkers, David soul also published something just today, kind 456 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:13,480 of, uh, pulling all of the, uh, interesting stuff he found while he was there at the summit. 457 00:24:13,940 --> 00:24:15,120 What, what'd you think yourself? 458 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,980 What, uh, how did this is your, uh, your second one to go to just like myself, right? 459 00:24:18,980 --> 00:24:20,040 Or have you been to, to more? 460 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:21,940 I think it was my second one. 461 00:24:21,980 --> 00:24:25,780 I actually, funny, I pulled up the one, it was called platform back in 2013. 462 00:24:25,780 --> 00:24:27,620 It looks like nine, nine people attended. 463 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,900 Maybe it was more, but it looked like it was a, it was a small affair. 464 00:24:30,900 --> 00:24:35,340 I think, uh, somebody mentioned, I think Sam Ramsey mentioned that the Bosch day on Thursday 465 00:24:35,340 --> 00:24:37,720 was bigger than the entire CF summit a few years ago. 466 00:24:37,940 --> 00:24:39,340 So that's amazing. 467 00:24:39,420 --> 00:24:39,900 That's awesome. 468 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,300 So it, it definitely was a, for me, a maturity sort of conference. 469 00:24:43,300 --> 00:24:48,480 Like you said, it was great to hear real proof points and, and the, the Altoros point, Altoros 470 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,240 point where they listed out a hundred interesting quotes. 471 00:24:51,380 --> 00:24:53,240 It was a lot of good data points in there. 472 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:54,660 Like, Hey, we're operating faster. 473 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,360 We have hundreds of developers now pushing code to this. 474 00:24:57,360 --> 00:25:00,840 If you're all state or if you're Comcast, that it was real proof points. 475 00:25:00,900 --> 00:25:03,700 You could argue, gosh, we go back to the first one. 476 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,680 It was almost like you were, I don't know, we're all dating last year. 477 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,500 Everyone was pregnant and talking about how great their kids were going to be. 478 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,080 And this year you actually have the toddler running around that looks legitimate. 479 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:16,200 Like it's not just saying, this is what we think we're going to do someday. 480 00:25:16,420 --> 00:25:19,920 It's all state saying 30% of our data centers running PCF. 481 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:21,460 Holy wow. 482 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:21,860 What? 483 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:23,800 That's great stuff. 484 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:28,080 So you're finally seeing real proof points, not people just kicking the tires and saying, 485 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:29,880 this is what we hope will be when we grow up. 486 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,160 But instead saying, Hey, we're out, we're trying it. 487 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:37,380 We're not done by any means, but we are now legitimately on this journey. 488 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:39,820 I think that that was for me, something that really stood out. 489 00:25:40,260 --> 00:25:40,380 Yeah. 490 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,760 You don't, you know, you make, you make me think of a, an interesting point is that the, 491 00:25:44,060 --> 00:25:48,360 a lot of the people in the, the Cloud Foundry community, the, the, the users, let's call 492 00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:53,800 them, they have a, um, they have a pretty like humble take at it. 493 00:25:53,820 --> 00:25:57,940 Like, like very few of them come out and say like, yes, we've solved all the problems done. 494 00:25:58,220 --> 00:25:59,880 And now here's, here's some slides. 495 00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:00,460 Yeah. 496 00:26:00,500 --> 00:26:05,500 But there, there's a, like, like Matt Curry, uh, he had a, he had a good talk among many 497 00:26:05,500 --> 00:26:10,220 others like this, that was going over how all state changed the culture around and things 498 00:26:10,220 --> 00:26:10,800 they were doing. 499 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,660 And, and he had, he had a, a, a funny series of pictures. 500 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:14,220 What was it? 501 00:26:14,260 --> 00:26:15,440 There was, it was, there were boats. 502 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,040 It was sort of like, uh, every project starts out as this speed boat. 503 00:26:19,100 --> 00:26:21,000 Like it's really quick and things are going great. 504 00:26:21,380 --> 00:26:25,920 And then, and then, you know, thing, you get more success and more people are added and 505 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,440 it's kind of like a pontoon boat. 506 00:26:27,660 --> 00:26:29,940 It's, it's, you know, you can accommodate more people. 507 00:26:29,940 --> 00:26:33,480 It's a little slower, but, uh, you know, you're more successful. 508 00:26:33,700 --> 00:26:37,500 And then, and then, and then he, I wasn't expecting this next one, but it was funny. 509 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,720 He's like, but then if things go too poorly and they get too bloated and 510 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:45,280 his next slide was a paddle boat that was just like, you know, way too many things going 511 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:46,380 on and lots of governance. 512 00:26:46,380 --> 00:26:50,600 And I mean, I guess actually a paddle boat could be delightful if you want like a gambling 513 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,560 boat and you, you miss your, uh, your Kenny Rogers sorts of memories and James Garner and 514 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:54,920 all that. 515 00:26:54,920 --> 00:27:00,220 But it was, it was a, uh, it was a good analogy, the sort of a nautical analogy for, uh, for 516 00:27:00,220 --> 00:27:02,540 managing all of your, uh, your projects. 517 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:07,580 But the point being that, uh, it's, it's fun to see a lot of those companies go over how 518 00:27:07,580 --> 00:27:13,740 they change things over because, uh, you know, no matter how much the sort of like agile and 519 00:27:13,740 --> 00:27:16,220 DevOps people talk, most of them are consultants. 520 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:21,340 And so they don't necessarily have as much legitimacy as actual end users going over things. 521 00:27:21,340 --> 00:27:25,560 And that's what I'm always trying to encourage, whether they're people who are in the Pivotal, 522 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:30,260 the Cloud Foundry, or just general using computers in a new way world is like, you just got to go 523 00:27:30,260 --> 00:27:31,140 out and talk about it. 524 00:27:31,140 --> 00:27:36,180 Like it's, uh, I mean, I almost feel like it's a responsibility that you have if you have 525 00:27:36,180 --> 00:27:40,460 enough spare time, uh, you know, when you're not trying to make money or do whatever goals 526 00:27:40,460 --> 00:27:43,020 you have, it's, it's, it would be good for us as an industry. 527 00:27:43,020 --> 00:27:45,360 If you came out and went over how you're doing those things. 528 00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:48,660 Cause it's a very, it's sort of dark knowledge at the moment. 529 00:27:49,460 --> 00:27:54,800 It is as a, as I guess a weird aside, I also find it, it changes my perception of the 530 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:55,060 company. 531 00:27:55,060 --> 00:27:58,940 I'm a Comcast customer and then Comcast isn't always known for having the best public 532 00:27:58,940 --> 00:28:03,800 reputation, but you know, after hearing some of those presentations, you know, whatever, 533 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:09,940 my, my score kind of ticked up a little bit just cause it was like, okay, they're, they're 534 00:28:09,940 --> 00:28:11,360 trying to do some interesting stuff. 535 00:28:11,420 --> 00:28:12,920 Here's a face on a company. 536 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,520 So I guess this goes back to, you know, these are our, these are companies listening to the 537 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:16,840 podcast. 538 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,940 You should be sending your people to things because it makes me think more highly of your 539 00:28:20,940 --> 00:28:23,360 company because you're showing, pulling back the curtains. 540 00:28:23,360 --> 00:28:26,880 You're showing us your real place that has real weird challenges. 541 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:32,020 And it's not just my cables out, but this is a remarkably complex distributed system that 542 00:28:32,020 --> 00:28:33,380 works beneath the covers. 543 00:28:33,380 --> 00:28:34,720 And I can appreciate that. 544 00:28:34,900 --> 00:28:40,000 So as an aside, I mean, I think that's for me fun as well, watching these companies get 545 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,560 up on stage and explain what they do because heck I'm a customer of many of them. 546 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,140 And now I understand them better. 547 00:28:45,620 --> 00:28:46,580 Yeah, no, that's, that's true. 548 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:51,680 Like I, uh, we, we've, we've got a pretty active, um, us federal government sales team. 549 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:56,220 So, so I, and other people go, go talk with people in DC a lot, government agencies. 550 00:28:56,220 --> 00:29:00,200 And, and I remember the last time I was out there, I was, I was just driving around. 551 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,380 Well, being driven around, I guess I'm not an animal. 552 00:29:03,580 --> 00:29:07,760 I don't, I don't rent a car to drive in DC, but, uh, you know, you drive past all these 553 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:14,060 buildings and, and you realize how massive the federal government is and how many moving 554 00:29:14,060 --> 00:29:16,960 parts there are and, and how complex of a system it is. 555 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:21,140 And then, you know, when you go talk with the people, you, you, you get a little more 556 00:29:21,140 --> 00:29:25,980 confused or at least I do because they're just people like, like running stuff. 557 00:29:26,100 --> 00:29:31,100 They're not like these, uh, these crazy automatons or like weird, uh, you know, the kind of thing 558 00:29:31,100 --> 00:29:33,400 you'd see in that Apple 1984 ad or whatever. 559 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,500 And they're generally interested in improving, but you know, that for me, the end result is 560 00:29:37,500 --> 00:29:38,440 that like, Oh, right. 561 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,200 This is a very complicated system that does a lot of difficult things. 562 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,520 And so we should figure out how to improve it. 563 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,880 And that's like, you know, whenever I go talk with government people, you sort of like a 564 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,740 cynical and, and a sardonic person that I am, I always tried to end in a bit of a, of a high 565 00:29:53,740 --> 00:29:55,460 note or, or, or a positive note. 566 00:29:55,460 --> 00:29:59,600 And when I go talk with government people, you know, I always feel like if we can just improve 567 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:05,140 it, even a fraction of a percentage, like government has such a huge reach that it'll improve all 568 00:30:05,140 --> 00:30:06,000 of our lives more. 569 00:30:06,260 --> 00:30:09,800 And I think, uh, you know, you see that same thing in, in, in the commercial world, but 570 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:14,220 it is, it is nice to actually get to know the people who are working behind these brands. 571 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:15,360 Yeah. 572 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:20,320 And to your point, I mean, that's what I think I enjoy the most about working for a company 573 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:24,360 that that's mission is to help some of the largest companies because they can make some 574 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:25,220 of the biggest impact. 575 00:30:25,220 --> 00:30:30,700 Like you said, I mean, a 1% improvement in how the gap processes or how the government processes 576 00:30:30,700 --> 00:30:35,160 are these very disparate things, but they're all large companies that impact hundreds of thousands 577 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:40,800 and millions of lives that they don't have to completely retool everything to make a difference. 578 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:45,100 But, you know, the other thing that stood out for me and watching the customer sessions 579 00:30:45,100 --> 00:30:49,860 or the analyst day was when you had people talking about, I don't know if maybe you heard 580 00:30:49,860 --> 00:30:53,640 it, I didn't, but almost everybody talked about a transformation journey. 581 00:30:53,820 --> 00:30:58,260 This was not, I bought software and now I run cool, shiny stuff. 582 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:04,720 It was, I am trying to change how we deliver technology services to run a better business. 583 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:10,600 And that is so refreshing and nice versus just, hey, look, I can orchestrate a thousand containers. 584 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:11,840 Who cares? 585 00:31:12,100 --> 00:31:14,460 Did you actually get help your customer today? 586 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:16,660 And it's just, I really like that. 587 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,420 The Pivotal Labs makes a huge difference for how many of those customers on stage called 588 00:31:20,420 --> 00:31:21,360 that out specifically. 589 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:26,820 That helping us think about test-driven and pairing and, you know, these things fundamentally change 590 00:31:26,820 --> 00:31:29,220 our outlook to how we develop software quickly. 591 00:31:30,100 --> 00:31:31,420 That's meaningful. 592 00:31:31,580 --> 00:31:35,320 It means that we're actually making a change, not just selling widgets or six units of DevOps. 593 00:31:35,860 --> 00:31:38,140 Yeah, no, that's, that's, that was true. 594 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,100 I was thinking I should, I should write up something about the, that analyst breakfast there because 595 00:31:42,100 --> 00:31:45,700 there weren't that many people there to cover it like the other posts that we went over. 596 00:31:45,700 --> 00:31:51,460 But yeah, once the, some of the, during the Q&A session, a lot of the, not all of them, 597 00:31:51,580 --> 00:31:56,020 but a lot of the analyst questions were around what you were saying is how do you, how do you 598 00:31:56,020 --> 00:31:57,520 propagate these changes throughout? 599 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:02,900 And, and I think, you know, I, it's, it's, I, I have another podcast, the Lords of Computing 600 00:32:02,900 --> 00:32:03,420 podcast. 601 00:32:03,420 --> 00:32:06,860 I do with, uh, to mention him again, Matt Curry from Allstate. 602 00:32:06,860 --> 00:32:11,240 And that's sort of the, the focus that we have on that podcast is answering that question. 603 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:16,120 And, and one of the people we interviewed recently, uh, Brian over at Express Scripts, 604 00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:20,520 he was, he was on it recently and he kind of reprised a little bit of this in the analyst 605 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:26,600 breakfast, but it really is just, um, at that scale that we were just talking about is, 606 00:32:26,780 --> 00:32:32,580 is slowly growing from, from successes and building up and building up, uh, further and 607 00:32:32,580 --> 00:32:33,100 further, right? 608 00:32:33,100 --> 00:32:35,700 There's no sort of like overnight change that you have. 609 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,480 Um, and you know, whether, whether it's as Matt Curry was talking about perfecting your 610 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:45,080 t-shirt design there on the, uh, the pontoon boat or whatever, or, or, you know, the story 611 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:50,620 that Brian was telling is, is similar that we hear from a lot of customers is that, uh, if 612 00:32:50,620 --> 00:32:57,340 you expect to have, I hesitate to call it small, but incremental growth, you can build that 613 00:32:57,340 --> 00:32:58,080 up over time. 614 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:02,220 So like he was saying, you know, they installed a Pivotal Cloud Foundry about five months ago 615 00:33:02,220 --> 00:33:06,560 and now there's like a hundred developers or so using it, which may not seem like a lot 616 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:07,960 in the grounds, grand scheme of things. 617 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:13,000 But as long as that, that, uh, to be all Charlie Munger, as long as that growth keeps on compounding 618 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:18,400 over time, so to speak, like it, uh, it definitely, that's how you spread things out in a kind of 619 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:19,540 safe and resilient way. 620 00:33:19,540 --> 00:33:23,460 And that, that seems to be the, uh, the journey that, that people are going on. 621 00:33:23,460 --> 00:33:26,120 And, you know, it's, it's, uh, unfortunately behind date. 622 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:30,180 Well, unfortunately, if you don't have access behind a paywall, but I was just reading one 623 00:33:30,180 --> 00:33:34,620 of the analysts who was there, uh, Lauren over at Forrester, uh, she had a pretty good 624 00:33:34,620 --> 00:33:37,880 write-off with some tips at the end on, on this topic. 625 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,800 Like exactly like how to transform to, uh, I don't know if she says cloud native, but 626 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,120 how to transform the way you're doing your it around. 627 00:33:45,140 --> 00:33:45,460 Right. 628 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:46,180 Yeah. 629 00:33:46,180 --> 00:33:50,100 I mean, there was that question midway through is either the analyst one or another, but I 630 00:33:50,100 --> 00:33:50,960 think it was the analyst day. 631 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:55,280 I mean, how do you, how do you have a 5,000 person it group and, and help that transform 632 00:33:55,280 --> 00:34:00,780 or 10,000 or, I mean, that's a daunting problem versus we have, you know, 25 devs and we need 633 00:34:00,780 --> 00:34:02,100 to get them all thinking about agile. 634 00:34:02,220 --> 00:34:07,340 That's a fundamentally different challenge than a giant org probably distributed across 635 00:34:07,340 --> 00:34:09,720 continents thinking in a new way. 636 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:15,960 And it was also, you know, as part of that, as you mentioned, incubation of success is key. 637 00:34:16,020 --> 00:34:19,820 You're not just going to top down mandate, say we're doing X, Y, Z, everybody figure it 638 00:34:19,820 --> 00:34:20,320 out, go. 639 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:26,000 But I was impressed that the rate of acceleration that, you know, whatever Comcast or Allstate 640 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,100 were doing a year ago, it seemed like they're doing a lot more of it now. 641 00:34:29,100 --> 00:34:32,900 And so you've gone from incubating to hundreds of devs. 642 00:34:32,980 --> 00:34:38,080 That is a pretty fantastic rate of adoption of people seeing like this, this makes my life 643 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:38,400 better. 644 00:34:38,540 --> 00:34:39,700 I'd like some more of that, please. 645 00:34:40,300 --> 00:34:40,360 Yeah. 646 00:34:40,460 --> 00:34:45,200 I mean, there's probably some game you can play about how long I talk in any given setting 647 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:49,940 before I mentioned that I've worked in strategy at Dell, but that is from working in strategy 648 00:34:49,940 --> 00:34:50,420 at Dell. 649 00:34:50,660 --> 00:34:56,680 Like that's, that's one thing that, that you understand about large companies is, I don't 650 00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:03,000 know if it's quite a hockey stick, but at some point the advantages of scale kick in at a 651 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:04,500 very large organization. 652 00:35:04,500 --> 00:35:09,120 And once you've kind of proven something out, you can roll it out really quickly to a huge 653 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:09,680 amount of people. 654 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,600 I shouldn't say really quickly, but you can roll it out to a bunch of people. 655 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,940 And then the overall impact that you get is the same. 656 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:20,320 I mean, it's kind of analogous to the, well, I think they still have this power, but the heft 657 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:24,660 of power that, that Microsoft has had, you know, ever since it, they, they did that deal 658 00:35:24,660 --> 00:35:28,620 with IBM way back when is that they just have this huge install base. 659 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,480 And when something's proven out, you can propagate it very quickly. 660 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:36,280 It's almost, if you were to put viral adoption on one end of a gradient, whatever it is I'm 661 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,180 talking about is on the opposite end of it. 662 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:45,100 It's, it's almost like, uh, it's almost like forced virality that, that, that you have. 663 00:35:45,100 --> 00:35:49,080 I mean, I think that, but that low, I think that low barrier to entry and the fact that 664 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,720 this is run as a service makes a huge difference. 665 00:35:51,720 --> 00:35:55,060 It's one thing for people to say, Hey, Microsoft Excel looks awesome. 666 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:57,040 Where do I get the CD and install this thing? 667 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,660 This is CF push looks amazing. 668 00:36:00,100 --> 00:36:02,980 Can I just take my repo and start pointing stuff there? 669 00:36:03,260 --> 00:36:07,560 Like that's even easier than saying, sure, you know, pick your container technology looks 670 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:07,900 great. 671 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,840 How do I stand up a cluster and figure out how to script it together and push an app? 672 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:17,480 Like the, the barrier entry is so low that you can see why an enterprise dev looks at this 673 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:19,580 and goes, uh, yeah, I'd like some of that. 674 00:36:19,580 --> 00:36:22,380 And it, it takes them an afternoon to push a couple apps. 675 00:36:22,700 --> 00:36:23,020 Definitely. 676 00:36:23,340 --> 00:36:24,320 It's, it's, uh, yeah. 677 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:29,360 And, and, and I think, I think that's, that's one of the main stories I see in, uh, in, I 678 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:33,080 don't know, I, to, to use a phrase from one of my booklets of last year or my only 679 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:37,400 one, the, the cloud native journey is there, there, there's a bit of a hump to get 680 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:38,820 that initial thing set up. 681 00:36:38,820 --> 00:36:43,440 And as long, once you get it set up initially, you get, you get your enterprise cloud set 682 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:45,940 up as it were, then it's exactly what you're talking about. 683 00:36:45,940 --> 00:36:46,520 It's like, oh, sure. 684 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:47,400 I'd love to do that. 685 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,860 And then, and then if it's available, and I think that's where the, the scale of a large 686 00:36:50,860 --> 00:36:56,480 organization comes in is if it's really easy for people in an organization to start using 687 00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:01,780 something, which requires that setting it up initially, then, uh, at that point it, uh, 688 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:07,540 it spreads super fast, uh, you know, relative to, uh, installing a DVD, definitely going to 689 00:37:07,540 --> 00:37:08,640 back to your Excel analogy. 690 00:37:09,900 --> 00:37:10,260 Right. 691 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,280 I think it was the Comcast fellow who had mentioned that, you know, when you, you make 692 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,640 things, when you, when you lower that barrier to entry, you make things contagious and you 693 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:21,760 make everyone want to jump in on that stuff, which sounds risky, like a Zika virus concern. 694 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,760 But, you know, I think there's, there's something to that. 695 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:26,320 And it was another thing mentioned in keynotes. 696 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,420 You have to make the, you know, make the hard things easy. 697 00:37:28,500 --> 00:37:33,280 And when you start doing those things, I think world weary developers and operations staff who 698 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:38,120 finally see a way to deploy things that function at scale on something that won't tip over and 699 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,940 doesn't take a hundred admins to operate, that, that sounds pretty good. 700 00:37:42,020 --> 00:37:46,420 It doesn't mean it's perfect, but that's something where, you know, you mentioned early on the, 701 00:37:46,420 --> 00:37:50,500 even the public and private thing, Hey, a lot of enterprises because of their scale have a lot 702 00:37:50,500 --> 00:37:55,100 of unused capacity and dropping that thing on premises is probably less friction than figuring out 703 00:37:55,100 --> 00:37:56,540 how to stand it up in the public cloud. 704 00:37:56,540 --> 00:38:00,720 So all sorts of things of trying to make it easier to get this thing up and running and 705 00:38:00,720 --> 00:38:04,620 getting developers on board, getting operations staff efficient with it. 706 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,740 I think we're figuring that out in a, in a pretty good way. 707 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:08,840 Yeah, absolutely. 708 00:38:09,100 --> 00:38:12,080 What do you have anything else from the CF summit that stood out to you? 709 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:17,080 No, besides, I mean, I think the quality of partner, not that, you know, we, Hey, 710 00:38:17,100 --> 00:38:21,680 you love partners every year, but this year that pavilion again, wasn't just full of, Hey, 711 00:38:21,720 --> 00:38:23,320 we have a distribution of Cloud Foundry. 712 00:38:23,380 --> 00:38:24,080 Come talk to us. 713 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:25,960 This was, Hey, tip co's there. 714 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:27,720 Everybody knows who tip co is for messaging. 715 00:38:27,860 --> 00:38:31,900 Hey, we work in Cloud Foundry now, or Apigee was actually on stage talking about stuff or 716 00:38:31,900 --> 00:38:36,940 for wonder of wonders, Microsoft doing three sessions built announcing service brokers for 717 00:38:36,940 --> 00:38:38,280 Cloud Foundry and having a booth. 718 00:38:38,500 --> 00:38:40,380 Like what alternate universe is this? 719 00:38:40,460 --> 00:38:44,720 So I think we saw a really interesting set of partners continue to come on. 720 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,080 You saw more announcements of who's in the foundation. 721 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,620 And, you know, now the challenge is going to be, how do you make sure you keep velocity 722 00:38:50,620 --> 00:38:54,720 with more and more kind of hanger ons onto the foundation, which is awesome. 723 00:38:54,860 --> 00:38:59,580 But how does that not accidentally cause you to become maybe a little more slow moving? 724 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:05,040 Sam seems pretty focused on that and clearly Pivotal continues to add our value add to the 725 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:09,480 base capability, but you know, size and scale can slow you down if you're not ready for it. 726 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:09,960 Yeah. 727 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:14,460 And, and, and, and, uh, you know, GE also had a booth there, which, which is interesting, 728 00:39:14,460 --> 00:39:14,720 right? 729 00:39:14,720 --> 00:39:19,100 Like you, you don't always see a lot of user booths and I, uh, of course they're, they're 730 00:39:19,100 --> 00:39:20,420 also an investor in Pivotal. 731 00:39:20,420 --> 00:39:25,520 So they have more than just a user stake, but, uh, yeah, they had, they had a nice little 732 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:27,120 demo of, uh, what was it? 733 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:32,860 It was kind of like a mock-up of, uh, of an oil refinery or whatever, like a tabletop 734 00:39:32,860 --> 00:39:33,540 oil refinery. 735 00:39:33,540 --> 00:39:35,120 So just a weird little model. 736 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:40,220 And, uh, yeah, it was, it was interesting to like get, get an overview of how, how everything 737 00:39:40,220 --> 00:39:42,960 we've been talking about fits into that kind of industrial world. 738 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:47,220 Now, you know, maybe it's not obvious, but obviously they don't, they don't run like a 739 00:39:47,220 --> 00:39:52,440 Cloud Foundry, like in the machinery or whatever, but it, uh, it gets uploaded to a central thing 740 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:57,060 where there's a lot of near real time, uh, data processing to figure out what to do and all 741 00:39:57,060 --> 00:39:57,600 that machinery. 742 00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:01,720 But that's a, if you're ever at one of these shows and you get to get a chance to go over 743 00:40:01,720 --> 00:40:06,280 and see, uh, see that stuff, it's actual like three dimensional things, which is entertaining 744 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:07,400 for software people. 745 00:40:08,340 --> 00:40:08,860 That's neat. 746 00:40:09,060 --> 00:40:09,200 Yeah. 747 00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:12,500 I mean, but to your point, as much as it might not be sitting here running the oil refinery, 748 00:40:12,500 --> 00:40:16,820 the other thing I think we saw is that this is not running people's static public facing 749 00:40:16,820 --> 00:40:17,320 websites. 750 00:40:17,720 --> 00:40:21,280 It's running a number of things that really matter within the company. 751 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:22,740 And again, that's good to see. 752 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:23,660 That's the sign of maturity. 753 00:40:23,660 --> 00:40:26,960 I think is that this isn't the play thing, or this isn't the thing where we just 754 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:32,160 push a mobile app to it's look, I can run something that isn't allowed to go down on 755 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:32,740 this platform. 756 00:40:32,740 --> 00:40:35,520 That's, I think the first Testament that you're running something that's meaningful. 757 00:40:35,940 --> 00:40:36,040 Yeah. 758 00:40:36,100 --> 00:40:40,420 Next year we need to, uh, we should tell the foundation to get one of the auto manufacturers 759 00:40:40,420 --> 00:40:44,760 like Ford or Dahmer or someone to come in and, uh, plop a, pump a car down. 760 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:49,620 I think, I think you've said you, you can safely say you've arrived as a conference when 761 00:40:49,620 --> 00:40:52,020 you have a car there on the, uh, the booth floor. 762 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:54,160 So that, that'll, that'll be a good milestone. 763 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:55,480 Sure. 764 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:59,260 We'll have a showcase showdown to give it away to, uh, whoever gets closest on price. 765 00:41:00,260 --> 00:41:00,620 Exactly. 766 00:41:01,240 --> 00:41:05,400 Maybe, maybe they'll have it in Las Vegas and we can get Drew Carey to come or whoever 767 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,700 that, that, that'll be fantasy land. 768 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,200 Well, so what, what, I, I don't know what we should close out with. 769 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:12,820 I have a few like things upcoming. 770 00:41:13,020 --> 00:41:13,800 I can go over. 771 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,060 Do you have a, you know, it's always good to have some sort of thing you do at the end 772 00:41:17,060 --> 00:41:22,240 of the podcast, whether it's recommendations or, uh, I don't know, jokes. 773 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:23,400 Jokes are terrible. 774 00:41:23,700 --> 00:41:24,560 We shouldn't do jokes. 775 00:41:25,020 --> 00:41:28,980 No, no, we got to work on catchphrases, but there are some good things coming on up in 776 00:41:28,980 --> 00:41:29,500 the month of June. 777 00:41:29,620 --> 00:41:32,180 There's more of these cloud native roadshows, which I'm pretty excited about. 778 00:41:32,260 --> 00:41:35,460 We're coming to Seattle, so I don't have to go very far to check that out. 779 00:41:35,780 --> 00:41:37,540 Obviously SpringOne conference coming up. 780 00:41:37,580 --> 00:41:42,180 I bought my tickets to that and it sounds like we were just chatting with the, one of the organizers 781 00:41:42,180 --> 00:41:46,240 on, on Friday and he was sifting through and finalized 60 of the sessions. 782 00:41:46,240 --> 00:41:48,140 So you'll start to see that come online soon. 783 00:41:48,140 --> 00:41:52,500 It seems like there's a good set of things coming along in the summer from an event. 784 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,060 perspective and all these user groups that keep popping up. 785 00:41:55,240 --> 00:41:58,940 And I don't know that the summer is not just the doldrums unless you live in Europe and 786 00:41:58,940 --> 00:42:00,480 take them on, you know, three months off. 787 00:42:02,340 --> 00:42:06,440 Or at least, yeah, you know, I, I, I used to, when I was at Red Monk, one of the founders 788 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,360 is, uh, is, uh, British or half British. 789 00:42:09,820 --> 00:42:12,300 And, and then the other one enjoys Maine. 790 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:14,240 So we would just have all of August off. 791 00:42:14,460 --> 00:42:15,700 Seems like a good lifestyle. 792 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,420 That was, that was fun times, but yeah, that's true. 793 00:42:18,500 --> 00:42:20,080 There's tons of roadshows coming up. 794 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:24,600 I'll, I'll put a, uh, a link in the show notes to it, but, uh, those are great. 795 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:28,700 Cause one, you don't have to go anywhere and you can get a, uh, more or less free lunch. 796 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,720 You know, there's no timeshare to buy, but you can get, you can get a, a free lunch and 797 00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:36,820 some snacks and you can see a demo of, uh, of what Pivotal Cloud Foundry actually does 798 00:42:36,820 --> 00:42:37,660 and how it fits in. 799 00:42:37,700 --> 00:42:41,120 And a lot of the people who give it are, uh, on the team that I work with. 800 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:42,220 So I can vouch for them. 801 00:42:42,220 --> 00:42:45,720 They're, they're very entertaining and give good demos of stuff. 802 00:42:46,020 --> 00:42:50,300 And then also, uh, you know, I, I, I'm, I'm doing, there'll be a webinar that I'm doing with, 803 00:42:50,300 --> 00:42:55,080 uh, Donnie over at four or five, one research coming out, uh, I think at the end of June or 804 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:59,380 so we'll, I'll have to, we'll have to mention that, uh, when we record next, hopefully we'll 805 00:42:59,380 --> 00:43:00,320 have a link up for it. 806 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:05,820 And I'll also be, uh, in Poland of all places speaking at a meetup on June 20th in Warsaw. 807 00:43:05,940 --> 00:43:10,280 And then I'm going to be at, uh, the real, the real reason, the main reason I'm going 808 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:16,200 is, uh, to go to devox and, and I broke one of my, my rules of conferences, which is only 809 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:17,680 speak once at a conference. 810 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:19,340 For some reason I'm speaking twice. 811 00:43:19,340 --> 00:43:24,820 I need to go, uh, find, uh, find my admin and tell them not to do this again, whoever that 812 00:43:24,820 --> 00:43:25,300 may be. 813 00:43:26,100 --> 00:43:26,980 Dangerous territory. 814 00:43:27,420 --> 00:43:27,500 Yeah. 815 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:34,140 Luckily one of them is a very non-technical, uh, just sort of, uh, off the top of my head 816 00:43:34,140 --> 00:43:37,580 talk, which is to say off the top of my head, when I plan it out, I don't actually have to 817 00:43:37,580 --> 00:43:38,280 get anything right. 818 00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:39,500 Cause it's all just my opinion. 819 00:43:39,700 --> 00:43:40,780 So that'll be easy. 820 00:43:41,020 --> 00:43:42,160 No way to get it wrong. 821 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:43,200 Right. 822 00:43:43,860 --> 00:43:44,260 Exactly. 823 00:43:45,300 --> 00:43:45,540 Yeah. 824 00:43:45,580 --> 00:43:49,500 So for those, uh, also for those listening is you have ideas for things you'd even like 825 00:43:49,500 --> 00:43:50,540 to hear us cover. 826 00:43:50,540 --> 00:43:55,660 I think finding, you know, Coté on Twitter and myself on Twitter, feel free to engage us, email 827 00:43:55,660 --> 00:43:58,680 whatever channels is we want to make sure we're covering things. 828 00:43:58,740 --> 00:44:03,060 They're also pretty interesting to, uh, to those who listen as you want us to debate certain 829 00:44:03,060 --> 00:44:05,240 topics or pretend to disagree with each other. 830 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:05,840 Let us know. 831 00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:07,320 Exactly. 832 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:13,000 Well, as always, and, and as is new, this is, uh, this has been Pivotal conversations. 833 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:19,060 You can find the, uh, links to this episode and show notes and all the usual stuff, including 834 00:44:19,060 --> 00:44:23,480 the RSS feed to subscribe to, uh, we're listed there in the iTunes of course, but if you go 835 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:29,140 to pivotal.io slash podcast, uh, I think you might be able to add an S there as well, but 836 00:44:29,140 --> 00:44:30,080 you can figure it out. 837 00:44:30,240 --> 00:44:33,780 You can, uh, you can find all of that there and we'll see everyone next time.