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Well, hello again, Andrew.

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It's been a little while since we've talked.

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We've got such a large team now

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that I have to systematically go through

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and talk with our teammates

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and put you on the back burner to talk with.

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Well, I'm not hard to find,

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but we do have quite a crew now.

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I know.

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How big is the team we have now?

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We're 10.

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10 strong.

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10 people.

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And we're writing a lot in that Slack channel.

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I keep thinking I need to set Josh Long up with his own,

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I always jokingly call it

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the Josh Long open mic channel in Slack,

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where he can just come in

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and he just has these wonderful stream of consciousness things.

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And I think I need to finally do that.

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That would be wonderful.

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I'm not sure Josh writes more than anyone else, though.

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He just writes all at once.

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Well, he batches it up.

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And so it has this,

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it's sort of like every now and then

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there's like drive-by communication,

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which makes it seem like a large volume.

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Where most of the rest of us are streaming.

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Exactly.

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He's got the batch paradigm.

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We smooth it out.

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Just like delivering every day,

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we smooth out the risk

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instead of like these giant big curves of things.

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But yeah, I bring that up

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because that's the thing I wanted to go over is very,

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I would say I was doing some background reading for our,

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we have a new release of Pivotal Cloud Foundry coming out soon.

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And I was looking at what we had the last time

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I did a bunch of work around this.

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And I would say the nature of what we do,

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and especially after talking with customers a lot more

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since starting back in January,

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has modified a lot, right?

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There's still a lot of,

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a ton of operational and cloud things that we do.

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But a lot of what's going on now

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is going up the stack as well

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and addressing a lot of the application development

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and architectural concerns.

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What are you actually going to do

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with that cloud type of stuff?

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And I think,

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I think with the team that we have,

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which is sort of like the,

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I don't know,

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advocate team,

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some people might say evangelist,

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but sort of the,

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the people who go out there

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and try to explain what's going on

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and also discover and help out.

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A lot of it is really,

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a lot of the people on our team

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are application centric.

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And I think,

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I think that reflects

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what at least in the customers

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and prospects I go to visit,

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the people who are using

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Pivotal Cloud Foundry,

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a lot of what they're interested in.

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They definitely want the operational stuff,

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but they're now pushing it towards

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how do we,

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how do we get into microservices

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and managing our application development

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in a new way?

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And just,

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just to wrap up,

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like I'm starting to look at it

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as really like the evolution of the,

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to use the proper term,

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the JEE market.

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Like as we record,

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Java one is going on now

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and there's a lot of,

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obviously from,

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from that community,

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figuring out what,

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what their mainstream future looks like.

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And I feel like we have

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a pretty good position

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of the companies we talk with.

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Many of them,

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they don't only work in Java,

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but a lot of them do.

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And they're looking at

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what we've been espousing

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in the Cloud Foundry world

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as like the way we should architect

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and develop our applications,

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which I think is,

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it's pretty interesting

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sorting that out.

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Absolutely.

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And I would say,

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and part of it is probably

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because of what I've done before

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and, you know,

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what people know me for,

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I still get pulled into

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a lot of the op-centric conversations.

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And we definitely still have those.

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So I wouldn't,

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I wouldn't say so much that

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we've,

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we've shifted everything

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to be app-centric,

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although there's,

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there's been some of that.

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It's that we've like

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included that as more.

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Exactly.

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Exactly.

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So that,

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that focus,

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looking at,

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you know,

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and connecting the dots

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from the bottom

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to the top,

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incorporating Spring,

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and that's,

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you know,

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that's part of this new release,

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the Spring Cloud services

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that give people,

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you know,

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access to a bunch of convenience

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with things like

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the Netflix open source

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that you can run in production,

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the same kind of stuff

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that they've been running.

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So I don't,

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I don't know so much

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that we've shifted,

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but we've just added

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and expanded that conversation

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to include the apps

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where before it was,

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you know,

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as you kind of pointed out,

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much more focused

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on the,

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the infrastructure

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and like the platform capabilities.

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Yeah,

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no,

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and,

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and I think that's exactly

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the right framing

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and I think

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one of the most recent visits

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I had out in the field

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with people represents that

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where there's,

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and this is what,

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what seems to be happening

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in the industry

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and in the app dev

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and cloud spaces.

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People like to start

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at the bottom.

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They like to start out

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with,

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with the computer,

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the silicon,

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if you will,

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and then build up

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of how they manage

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the infrastructure,

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how they do all

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the operation stuff

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and how it gets built out.

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And,

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and then that kind of derives

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the style of application development

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that you'll do.

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And,

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and,

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you know,

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the,

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the chattering class

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of the industry

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spends a lot of time

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at that sort of orchestration

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that the middle of the stack,

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if you will.

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And so when,

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when I go out

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and talk with people,

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they're very interested

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in what's going on

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at the,

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like right below

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the application layer

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and they want to make sure

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that that's covered

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and handled as well.

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And when you kind of

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close out that conversation

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with them

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and you explain how,

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you know,

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I mean,

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basically like,

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here's our vision

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of how highly automated

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infrastructure works

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and how we govern

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and coordinate the way

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that processes

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and applications run

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and they coordinate together.

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Then it's sort of like,

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it opens up the next door,

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which is like,

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all right,

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now we need to write

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some applications

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and design them.

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And so I think it's those

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two conversations together

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that give you that,

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that fuller view.

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And,

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and what I've noticed,

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especially over the last

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six months is,

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yeah,

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I mean,

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most of the people

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I go out and talk with,

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they have to go through

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that whole conversation.

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And then,

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and then once you hit

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on the application stuff,

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there's like this whole

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other group of people

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that you talk with.

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The more of the enterprise

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architects and,

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and they're much more closer

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to the end users

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and the way they're sorting

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through how to use things

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like Spring Cloud

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and,

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and how to come up

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with their microservices

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is,

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is fascinating.

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It's fun to see them

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like sorting out

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the new,

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the new architectures

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they have to put up with.

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Like,

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like we were talking

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before we were recording

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how a lot of the,

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a lot of the style

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of architecture

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is very similar

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to how you connect

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together a bunch

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of processes

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on a,

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on a Linux

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or Unix command line.

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Like you're combining

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things together.

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Except now it's distributed.

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Now your schedulers

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are across,

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you know,

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this fabric of resources

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instead of on a single machine.

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Right,

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right.

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And that's,

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that's where you have

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to have that marrying

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of operations

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and application together,

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right?

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It's,

302
00:06:19,700 --> 00:06:21,240
it's like there was

303
00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:21,920
this time

304
00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:23,240
back when both of us,

305
00:06:23,280 --> 00:06:23,940
if I remember,

306
00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:25,140
did Java development

307
00:06:25,140 --> 00:06:27,100
where there was

308
00:06:27,100 --> 00:06:27,900
this fascination

309
00:06:27,900 --> 00:06:28,800
with how distributed

310
00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:29,820
architectures work

311
00:06:29,820 --> 00:06:30,300
and distributed

312
00:06:30,300 --> 00:06:31,340
applications work.

313
00:06:31,460 --> 00:06:32,620
And you kind of

314
00:06:32,620 --> 00:06:33,260
needed to know

315
00:06:33,260 --> 00:06:34,160
all of that stuff.

316
00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:34,880
And then it seemed

317
00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:35,920
to kind of wear away

318
00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:36,400
slightly,

319
00:06:36,700 --> 00:06:37,360
at least at the

320
00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:38,180
architecture layer.

321
00:06:38,300 --> 00:06:38,760
But now,

322
00:06:39,300 --> 00:06:40,060
now that we're back

323
00:06:40,060 --> 00:06:41,020
to doing or thinking

324
00:06:41,020 --> 00:06:42,060
about and being real

325
00:06:42,060 --> 00:06:42,940
cognizant of doing

326
00:06:42,940 --> 00:06:43,980
distributed application

327
00:06:43,980 --> 00:06:44,920
architectures,

328
00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:46,060
now you do think

329
00:06:46,060 --> 00:06:46,900
about all that stuff.

330
00:06:47,660 --> 00:06:49,280
And so I think

331
00:06:49,280 --> 00:06:50,140
there's a general

332
00:06:50,140 --> 00:06:52,340
trend to reinvent

333
00:06:52,340 --> 00:06:53,880
Korba about every,

334
00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:55,860
exactly,

335
00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:57,360
every so often.

336
00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:58,040
That's why it's

337
00:06:58,040 --> 00:06:59,300
baked into the JDK.

338
00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:01,200
I also think

339
00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:03,120
that there's a,

340
00:07:03,260 --> 00:07:03,920
there's an aspect

341
00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:04,700
of scale,

342
00:07:05,100 --> 00:07:06,360
both scale

343
00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:06,740
and,

344
00:07:06,740 --> 00:07:07,140
and,

345
00:07:07,140 --> 00:07:08,080
and velocity

346
00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:09,580
that's different now

347
00:07:09,580 --> 00:07:09,860
than,

348
00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:10,780
than we saw

349
00:07:10,780 --> 00:07:11,420
in the past.

350
00:07:11,460 --> 00:07:11,880
Yeah.

351
00:07:11,980 --> 00:07:12,340
And,

352
00:07:12,460 --> 00:07:12,920
and I think

353
00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:13,680
that what happened

354
00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:14,020
in,

355
00:07:14,180 --> 00:07:14,340
you know,

356
00:07:14,340 --> 00:07:14,580
you,

357
00:07:14,740 --> 00:07:15,200
you just

358
00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:15,780
kind of alluded

359
00:07:15,780 --> 00:07:16,400
to it is

360
00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:17,280
the,

361
00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:17,980
there are sort

362
00:07:17,980 --> 00:07:18,700
of these basic

363
00:07:18,700 --> 00:07:20,700
primitive clustering

364
00:07:20,700 --> 00:07:22,040
approaches that

365
00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:22,960
were kind of

366
00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:24,060
baked into the

367
00:07:24,060 --> 00:07:25,220
J2EE

368
00:07:25,220 --> 00:07:26,680
app servers,

369
00:07:27,020 --> 00:07:28,620
but they're not,

370
00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:29,820
they're not really

371
00:07:29,820 --> 00:07:30,560
built to,

372
00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:32,140
to deal with

373
00:07:32,140 --> 00:07:32,540
the,

374
00:07:32,540 --> 00:07:33,740
the scale out

375
00:07:33,740 --> 00:07:34,420
architectures

376
00:07:34,420 --> 00:07:34,660
that,

377
00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:35,440
that we're seeing

378
00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:36,340
emerge right now.

379
00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:36,740
Right.

380
00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:37,400
And,

381
00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:38,520
and a lot of that

382
00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:39,120
just comes down

383
00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:39,520
to the,

384
00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:40,460
to the hard problems

385
00:07:40,460 --> 00:07:41,120
of managing

386
00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:42,080
state,

387
00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:43,760
which for whatever

388
00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:44,100
reason,

389
00:07:44,100 --> 00:07:44,780
it seems like

390
00:07:44,780 --> 00:07:45,320
most people

391
00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:46,200
refuse to think

392
00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:46,820
clearly about.

393
00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:47,640
Yeah.

394
00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:49,240
No,

395
00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:49,460
I,

396
00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:50,140
I think,

397
00:07:50,140 --> 00:07:50,780
I think that's,

398
00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:52,060
that's the hard

399
00:07:52,060 --> 00:07:52,680
problem.

400
00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:54,080
And,

401
00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:54,280
and,

402
00:07:54,500 --> 00:07:55,300
and making sure

403
00:07:55,300 --> 00:07:55,720
that you write

404
00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:56,360
your applications

405
00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:56,800
to,

406
00:07:56,900 --> 00:07:57,440
to,

407
00:07:57,560 --> 00:07:58,400
to properly deal

408
00:07:58,400 --> 00:07:58,840
with state

409
00:07:58,840 --> 00:07:59,740
or ignore it.

410
00:07:59,820 --> 00:08:00,020
I mean,

411
00:08:00,020 --> 00:08:00,720
that's the other trick

412
00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:01,400
is like figuring out

413
00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:02,040
when to ignore it,

414
00:08:02,060 --> 00:08:02,400
but that's,

415
00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:03,280
that's where,

416
00:08:03,380 --> 00:08:03,840
that's where the

417
00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:04,660
annoyances come in.

418
00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:05,220
And I think,

419
00:08:05,340 --> 00:08:06,140
I think the trick

420
00:08:06,140 --> 00:08:06,640
is,

421
00:08:07,060 --> 00:08:07,660
and I,

422
00:08:07,740 --> 00:08:08,440
I mean this

423
00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:10,060
as seriously

424
00:08:10,060 --> 00:08:10,560
as I could

425
00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:11,520
possibly be

426
00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:12,440
if you ever met

427
00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:12,580
me,

428
00:08:12,620 --> 00:08:12,900
that's,

429
00:08:12,980 --> 00:08:13,100
you know,

430
00:08:13,100 --> 00:08:13,660
really serious.

431
00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:14,860
But the,

432
00:08:14,980 --> 00:08:16,560
the trick is pushing

433
00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:17,520
that,

434
00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:18,260
that place

435
00:08:18,260 --> 00:08:18,940
where you handle

436
00:08:18,940 --> 00:08:19,920
state into the

437
00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:21,280
place where you

438
00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:22,140
know that you can

439
00:08:22,140 --> 00:08:22,820
do it deliberately

440
00:08:22,820 --> 00:08:25,160
instead of,

441
00:08:25,300 --> 00:08:25,740
like,

442
00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:26,380
I think there's a

443
00:08:26,380 --> 00:08:27,580
tendency for people

444
00:08:27,580 --> 00:08:28,420
to just kind of

445
00:08:28,420 --> 00:08:29,080
smear state

446
00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:29,740
across a bunch

447
00:08:29,740 --> 00:08:30,200
of stuff.

448
00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:30,840
And then they're

449
00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:31,020
like,

450
00:08:31,060 --> 00:08:31,820
why is it so hard

451
00:08:31,820 --> 00:08:32,680
to manage state?

452
00:08:33,020 --> 00:08:34,360
Instead of,

453
00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:35,000
instead of,

454
00:08:35,140 --> 00:08:35,240
okay,

455
00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:35,460
like,

456
00:08:35,540 --> 00:08:36,560
let's do everything

457
00:08:36,560 --> 00:08:38,000
we can as stateless

458
00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:38,720
as possible.

459
00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:40,060
And then where we

460
00:08:40,060 --> 00:08:40,860
need to deal with state,

461
00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:41,860
we make that very

462
00:08:41,860 --> 00:08:42,840
deliberate and we

463
00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:43,560
can do things,

464
00:08:44,020 --> 00:08:44,820
you know,

465
00:08:44,860 --> 00:08:45,220
in a,

466
00:08:45,260 --> 00:08:45,720
in a sense,

467
00:08:45,780 --> 00:08:46,160
and this kind of

468
00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:47,000
goes back to my

469
00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:48,940
mental model that

470
00:08:48,940 --> 00:08:49,420
I've been trying

471
00:08:49,420 --> 00:08:50,260
to get people to

472
00:08:50,260 --> 00:08:51,220
understand around

473
00:08:51,220 --> 00:08:52,240
promises and

474
00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:53,020
contracts and the

475
00:08:53,020 --> 00:08:53,500
rest of the stuff.

476
00:08:53,860 --> 00:08:54,080
Like,

477
00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:54,380
if I,

478
00:08:54,460 --> 00:08:55,160
if I have to

479
00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:56,580
have state

480
00:08:56,580 --> 00:08:57,380
everywhere and

481
00:08:57,380 --> 00:08:58,220
manage it in,

482
00:08:58,280 --> 00:08:58,660
in,

483
00:08:58,780 --> 00:08:58,940
you know,

484
00:08:58,960 --> 00:08:59,580
different ways

485
00:08:59,580 --> 00:08:59,940
everywhere,

486
00:08:59,940 --> 00:09:01,080
then I have a

487
00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:01,600
lot harder

488
00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:02,820
time keeping my

489
00:09:02,820 --> 00:09:03,940
promises than

490
00:09:03,940 --> 00:09:04,760
if I have

491
00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:05,580
deliberately set

492
00:09:05,580 --> 00:09:06,540
up the,

493
00:09:06,540 --> 00:09:07,280
the stateless

494
00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:08,360
processes in a

495
00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:08,940
certain way,

496
00:09:08,940 --> 00:09:09,720
and then the

497
00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:10,560
stateful processes

498
00:09:10,560 --> 00:09:11,340
in another way,

499
00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:11,880
and I can kind

500
00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:12,580
of manage those

501
00:09:12,580 --> 00:09:13,580
in this sensible

502
00:09:13,580 --> 00:09:16,020
way that,

503
00:09:16,020 --> 00:09:16,900
that makes sense

504
00:09:16,900 --> 00:09:17,380
and I can,

505
00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:18,080
I can reason

506
00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:18,560
about it.

507
00:09:18,680 --> 00:09:19,180
Reason about

508
00:09:19,180 --> 00:09:19,960
both how it

509
00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:20,600
will perform,

510
00:09:21,060 --> 00:09:21,520
how it will

511
00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:21,880
fail,

512
00:09:21,980 --> 00:09:22,340
how I can

513
00:09:22,340 --> 00:09:22,740
recover,

514
00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:23,300
all these other

515
00:09:23,300 --> 00:09:23,880
things that I

516
00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:24,700
want to do to

517
00:09:24,700 --> 00:09:25,060
manage the

518
00:09:25,060 --> 00:09:25,740
full life cycle.

519
00:09:26,380 --> 00:09:26,480
Yeah,

520
00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:27,240
that's,

521
00:09:27,300 --> 00:09:27,880
that's like,

522
00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:28,600
when it comes

523
00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:29,320
to the database,

524
00:09:29,660 --> 00:09:29,860
that's,

525
00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:30,160
that's a

526
00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:30,620
reoccurring

527
00:09:30,620 --> 00:09:31,560
conversation I've,

528
00:09:31,680 --> 00:09:32,280
I've found

529
00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:32,760
myself and

530
00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:33,160
other people

531
00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:33,960
having when I'm

532
00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:34,380
out there talking

533
00:09:34,380 --> 00:09:35,160
with people is,

534
00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,120
there must be

535
00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:37,740
some name for

536
00:09:37,740 --> 00:09:38,220
this effect,

537
00:09:38,340 --> 00:09:39,660
but if you

538
00:09:39,660 --> 00:09:40,980
centralize all

539
00:09:40,980 --> 00:09:41,820
of your storage

540
00:09:41,820 --> 00:09:42,860
into like one

541
00:09:42,860 --> 00:09:43,300
place,

542
00:09:43,300 --> 00:09:44,080
as most people

543
00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:44,820
do into a

544
00:09:44,820 --> 00:09:45,780
traditional big,

545
00:09:45,780 --> 00:09:46,980
big database,

546
00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:48,840
there's a certain

547
00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:49,620
cut point where

548
00:09:49,620 --> 00:09:49,760
you,

549
00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:50,340
where because

550
00:09:50,340 --> 00:09:51,220
everything is in

551
00:09:51,220 --> 00:09:52,160
that one place,

552
00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:53,140
it introduces

553
00:09:53,140 --> 00:09:53,920
like a huge

554
00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:54,340
amount of

555
00:09:54,340 --> 00:09:55,380
complexity that

556
00:09:55,380 --> 00:09:55,980
you end up

557
00:09:55,980 --> 00:09:56,580
spending a lot

558
00:09:56,580 --> 00:09:57,260
of time with,

559
00:09:57,680 --> 00:09:58,520
versus like

560
00:09:58,520 --> 00:09:59,380
trying to always

561
00:09:59,380 --> 00:10:01,560
have reverting

562
00:10:01,560 --> 00:10:02,020
back to that

563
00:10:02,020 --> 00:10:02,740
contract state

564
00:10:02,740 --> 00:10:03,200
where you have

565
00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:04,160
like state

566
00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:04,820
is really,

567
00:10:05,020 --> 00:10:05,580
you keep it as

568
00:10:05,580 --> 00:10:06,480
simple as possible,

569
00:10:06,620 --> 00:10:07,260
like the APIs

570
00:10:07,260 --> 00:10:07,500
too,

571
00:10:07,560 --> 00:10:08,000
it's simple,

572
00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:09,020
and you don't

573
00:10:09,020 --> 00:10:10,020
necessarily like

574
00:10:10,020 --> 00:10:10,740
jam it all

575
00:10:10,740 --> 00:10:11,600
into one database

576
00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:11,960
where you have

577
00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:12,480
to start worrying

578
00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:13,360
about ontologies

579
00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:14,440
and taxonomies

580
00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:14,880
and like,

581
00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:15,800
and how you

582
00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:16,560
modify things

583
00:10:16,560 --> 00:10:17,420
from time to

584
00:10:17,420 --> 00:10:17,580
time.

585
00:10:17,660 --> 00:10:18,460
Like I obviously

586
00:10:18,460 --> 00:10:18,920
haven't figured

587
00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:19,340
out what the

588
00:10:19,340 --> 00:10:19,840
answer to this

589
00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:20,020
is,

590
00:10:20,100 --> 00:10:20,860
but it's been

591
00:10:20,860 --> 00:10:21,480
interesting talking

592
00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:22,320
with people who

593
00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,520
are very

594
00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:25,200
obsessed with

595
00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:25,820
the schema

596
00:10:25,820 --> 00:10:27,240
and how you

597
00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:28,160
update schemas

598
00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:28,500
and how you

599
00:10:28,500 --> 00:10:28,960
do table

600
00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:29,380
upgrades

601
00:10:29,380 --> 00:10:29,840
and all of

602
00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:30,320
this stuff,

603
00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:32,320
which those

604
00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:33,220
discussions don't

605
00:10:33,220 --> 00:10:34,020
necessarily come

606
00:10:34,020 --> 00:10:34,560
up as much

607
00:10:34,560 --> 00:10:35,540
in a microservices

608
00:10:35,540 --> 00:10:36,520
world where

609
00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:37,600
state is treated

610
00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:38,220
differently than

611
00:10:38,220 --> 00:10:38,760
like a big

612
00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:39,560
honking relational

613
00:10:39,560 --> 00:10:40,700
database that

614
00:10:40,700 --> 00:10:41,440
you're always

615
00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:41,860
tracking with.

616
00:10:41,940 --> 00:10:42,620
But there's

617
00:10:42,620 --> 00:10:42,960
sort of like

618
00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:43,400
this general

619
00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:43,900
thing that I've

620
00:10:43,900 --> 00:10:44,460
noticed where

621
00:10:44,460 --> 00:10:46,120
the concerns

622
00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:46,660
you have,

623
00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:47,180
that you used

624
00:10:47,180 --> 00:10:47,460
to have,

625
00:10:47,500 --> 00:10:47,760
you're using

626
00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:48,600
different technologies

627
00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:49,080
so you don't

628
00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:49,540
need to worry

629
00:10:49,540 --> 00:10:50,000
about those

630
00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:50,660
things too much,

631
00:10:50,860 --> 00:10:51,440
like spending

632
00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:52,300
months governing

633
00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:53,000
the perfect

634
00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:54,040
ontology of

635
00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:54,300
what your

636
00:10:54,300 --> 00:10:54,840
data model

637
00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:55,180
is.

638
00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:56,360
Yeah,

639
00:10:56,420 --> 00:10:57,140
that's wrong.

640
00:10:58,100 --> 00:10:58,580
Right,

641
00:10:58,660 --> 00:10:58,920
right.

642
00:10:59,060 --> 00:10:59,540
The first

643
00:10:59,540 --> 00:10:59,960
day.

644
00:11:00,820 --> 00:11:01,060
Yeah,

645
00:11:01,180 --> 00:11:01,400
well,

646
00:11:01,500 --> 00:11:02,880
that's always

647
00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:03,940
been an

648
00:11:03,940 --> 00:11:04,760
exciting issue.

649
00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:06,820
I think

650
00:11:06,820 --> 00:11:07,880
pretty much

651
00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:08,640
every time

652
00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:09,140
I've ever

653
00:11:09,140 --> 00:11:09,840
talked,

654
00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:10,080
and this

655
00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:11,500
predates

656
00:11:11,500 --> 00:11:12,540
anything to

657
00:11:12,540 --> 00:11:12,740
do with

658
00:11:12,740 --> 00:11:13,480
Cloud Foundry,

659
00:11:14,300 --> 00:11:15,920
the conversation

660
00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:16,760
pretty quickly

661
00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:17,300
got to,

662
00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:18,080
how do you

663
00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:18,680
do database

664
00:11:18,680 --> 00:11:19,260
migrations?

665
00:11:19,660 --> 00:11:19,860
Yeah.

666
00:11:20,620 --> 00:11:20,840
Right,

667
00:11:20,900 --> 00:11:21,300
and it's like,

668
00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:21,640
well,

669
00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:23,680
these are

670
00:11:23,680 --> 00:11:25,040
technologies that

671
00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:25,780
weren't actually

672
00:11:25,780 --> 00:11:26,920
designed to be

673
00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:27,580
operated.

674
00:11:28,680 --> 00:11:28,960
They weren't

675
00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:29,840
actually designed

676
00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:30,460
to be,

677
00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:32,120
this is something

678
00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:32,740
I got all of

679
00:11:32,740 --> 00:11:34,400
our team

680
00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:35,020
watching,

681
00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:35,300
I don't know

682
00:11:35,300 --> 00:11:35,680
if you've ever

683
00:11:35,680 --> 00:11:36,320
watched the

684
00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:37,180
Joe Armstrong,

685
00:11:37,900 --> 00:11:38,540
The Six Laws

686
00:11:38,540 --> 00:11:39,240
of Reliability.

687
00:11:40,900 --> 00:11:41,340
Right,

688
00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:41,540
right,

689
00:11:41,580 --> 00:11:41,760
right.

690
00:11:42,260 --> 00:11:43,360
But one of the

691
00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:44,400
six laws of

692
00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:45,300
reliability is

693
00:11:45,300 --> 00:11:46,060
that if you

694
00:11:46,060 --> 00:11:46,640
want a system

695
00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:47,040
that never

696
00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:47,560
stops,

697
00:11:48,260 --> 00:11:48,720
then you,

698
00:11:48,900 --> 00:11:49,540
by definition,

699
00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:50,880
need to be able

700
00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:51,580
to do live

701
00:11:51,580 --> 00:11:52,060
upgrades.

702
00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:54,260
And how

703
00:11:54,260 --> 00:11:55,480
many database

704
00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:56,320
engines have

705
00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:56,940
baked into

706
00:11:56,940 --> 00:11:57,180
them,

707
00:11:57,180 --> 00:11:57,440
and there's

708
00:11:57,440 --> 00:11:57,780
starting to

709
00:11:57,780 --> 00:11:58,240
be some,

710
00:11:58,800 --> 00:11:59,400
this notion

711
00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:00,920
of a live

712
00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:02,480
online upgrade.

713
00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:03,300
Right.

714
00:12:05,300 --> 00:12:06,200
And that's

715
00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:07,180
particularly hard

716
00:12:07,180 --> 00:12:08,480
in a database

717
00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:08,960
because you've

718
00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:09,440
got like this

719
00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:10,180
single point

720
00:12:10,180 --> 00:12:11,640
of running.

721
00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:13,640
Not to call

722
00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:14,020
it a failure,

723
00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:15,940
but as you

724
00:12:15,940 --> 00:12:16,340
were saying,

725
00:12:16,500 --> 00:12:16,600
right,

726
00:12:16,700 --> 00:12:18,580
the database

727
00:12:18,580 --> 00:12:19,220
was not

728
00:12:19,220 --> 00:12:19,780
written to

729
00:12:19,780 --> 00:12:20,700
have live

730
00:12:20,700 --> 00:12:21,500
upgrades so

731
00:12:21,500 --> 00:12:21,800
much.

732
00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:22,200
Right,

733
00:12:22,260 --> 00:12:22,640
like it's

734
00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:22,840
not,

735
00:12:22,900 --> 00:12:23,200
it's not

736
00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:24,000
written to

737
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:24,680
operate that

738
00:12:24,680 --> 00:12:24,940
way,

739
00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:26,040
which bubbles

740
00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:26,500
up this

741
00:12:26,500 --> 00:12:27,100
annoying

742
00:12:27,100 --> 00:12:27,680
constraint.

743
00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:28,800
What year

744
00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:29,260
was the

745
00:12:29,260 --> 00:12:30,000
SQL standard

746
00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:30,500
published?

747
00:12:31,460 --> 00:12:31,720
Yeah,

748
00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:32,080
yeah.

749
00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:32,500
Isn't the

750
00:12:32,500 --> 00:12:33,000
most recent

751
00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:33,420
one like

752
00:12:33,420 --> 00:12:34,120
92 or

753
00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:34,420
something?

754
00:12:34,540 --> 00:12:34,920
It's probably

755
00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:35,320
like more

756
00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:35,620
recent,

757
00:12:35,740 --> 00:12:36,160
but that's

758
00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:36,900
what I

759
00:12:36,900 --> 00:12:37,160
remember

760
00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:37,580
learning.

761
00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:39,100
Good old

762
00:12:39,100 --> 00:12:39,440
SQL.

763
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:40,100
But these

764
00:12:40,100 --> 00:12:40,500
things go

765
00:12:40,500 --> 00:12:41,200
back decades,

766
00:12:41,300 --> 00:12:41,440
right?

767
00:12:41,460 --> 00:12:41,740
And there's

768
00:12:41,740 --> 00:12:42,240
a different

769
00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:42,880
world with

770
00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:43,820
different needs

771
00:12:43,820 --> 00:12:45,400
and that's

772
00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:45,800
why you've

773
00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:46,320
seen all

774
00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:47,420
the large

775
00:12:47,420 --> 00:12:48,440
kind of

776
00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:49,080
web-centric

777
00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:49,820
cloud-native

778
00:12:49,820 --> 00:12:50,800
companies

779
00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:52,380
move to

780
00:12:52,380 --> 00:12:53,180
other types

781
00:12:53,180 --> 00:12:53,740
of approaches

782
00:12:53,740 --> 00:12:55,640
and this

783
00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:56,440
is a

784
00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:57,000
buzzword

785
00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:57,520
of the

786
00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:58,720
yesterday,

787
00:12:58,980 --> 00:12:59,560
but no

788
00:12:59,560 --> 00:13:00,040
SQL,

789
00:13:00,820 --> 00:13:01,260
and I

790
00:13:01,260 --> 00:13:01,680
suppose it

791
00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:02,120
still has

792
00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:02,980
some

793
00:13:02,980 --> 00:13:03,580
conversations,

794
00:13:03,980 --> 00:13:05,000
but the

795
00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:06,320
methods that

796
00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:06,740
people are

797
00:13:06,740 --> 00:13:07,340
using to

798
00:13:07,340 --> 00:13:07,800
run

799
00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:09,000
cloud-native,

800
00:13:10,220 --> 00:13:11,020
large-scale,

801
00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:11,360
highly

802
00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:11,880
available,

803
00:13:12,100 --> 00:13:12,380
rapidly

804
00:13:12,380 --> 00:13:12,960
changing

805
00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:13,620
applications

806
00:13:13,620 --> 00:13:14,600
are kind

807
00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:15,020
of different

808
00:13:15,020 --> 00:13:16,160
than that

809
00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:16,800
relational

810
00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:17,220
model.

811
00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:18,520
And even

812
00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:19,200
when you

813
00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:19,620
have those

814
00:13:19,620 --> 00:13:20,180
relational

815
00:13:20,180 --> 00:13:21,120
databases,

816
00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:21,600
like when

817
00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:21,920
you start

818
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:22,380
doing things

819
00:13:22,380 --> 00:13:23,200
like sharding

820
00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:24,260
and then

821
00:13:24,260 --> 00:13:26,320
they have

822
00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:28,500
the read

823
00:13:28,500 --> 00:13:29,140
and writes

824
00:13:29,140 --> 00:13:29,760
and you

825
00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:30,600
have separated

826
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:31,080
like,

827
00:13:31,660 --> 00:13:32,140
we don't

828
00:13:32,140 --> 00:13:32,540
like using

829
00:13:32,540 --> 00:13:32,960
this language

830
00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:33,280
but it's

831
00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:33,620
the one

832
00:13:33,620 --> 00:13:34,440
everyone uses,

833
00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:36,100
masters and

834
00:13:36,100 --> 00:13:36,460
slaves,

835
00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:37,780
you basically

836
00:13:37,780 --> 00:13:38,240
went to

837
00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:39,100
an eventually

838
00:13:39,100 --> 00:13:39,900
consistent

839
00:13:39,900 --> 00:13:40,660
kind of

840
00:13:40,660 --> 00:13:41,100
separated

841
00:13:41,100 --> 00:13:41,840
model anyway.

842
00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:43,000
You just

843
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:44,280
didn't

844
00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:44,960
take full

845
00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:45,580
advantage of

846
00:13:45,580 --> 00:13:46,400
the opportunity

847
00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:47,700
to separate

848
00:13:47,700 --> 00:13:48,080
it all the

849
00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:48,420
way because

850
00:13:48,420 --> 00:13:48,980
you're still

851
00:13:48,980 --> 00:13:49,620
basing on

852
00:13:49,620 --> 00:13:50,340
that older

853
00:13:50,340 --> 00:13:50,980
technology.

854
00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:53,040
So then,

855
00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:53,460
you know,

856
00:13:53,860 --> 00:13:54,400
while we're

857
00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:54,680
on the

858
00:13:54,680 --> 00:13:55,340
data topic,

859
00:13:55,740 --> 00:13:56,640
as it were,

860
00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:56,900
like,

861
00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:57,660
here's,

862
00:13:58,300 --> 00:13:58,860
how did we

863
00:13:58,860 --> 00:13:59,200
get here?

864
00:13:59,260 --> 00:13:59,480
On the

865
00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:00,060
data topic.

866
00:14:00,300 --> 00:14:00,980
That's right.

867
00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:02,720
Like,

868
00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:03,460
here's

869
00:14:03,460 --> 00:14:04,100
something that

870
00:14:04,100 --> 00:14:04,740
I haven't

871
00:14:04,740 --> 00:14:05,220
sorted out

872
00:14:05,220 --> 00:14:05,340
yet,

873
00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:05,660
but I've

874
00:14:05,660 --> 00:14:05,920
noticed,

875
00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:06,680
this is a

876
00:14:06,680 --> 00:14:07,240
question I've

877
00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:07,600
had in my

878
00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:07,880
mind.

879
00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:08,260
So,

880
00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:09,360
on the

881
00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:09,940
one hand,

882
00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:10,440
you want

883
00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:11,020
to minimize

884
00:14:11,020 --> 00:14:11,780
variance,

885
00:14:12,100 --> 00:14:12,960
as you were

886
00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:13,260
saying,

887
00:14:13,420 --> 00:14:14,120
and sort

888
00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:14,680
of like,

889
00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:15,600
have some

890
00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:16,380
common ways

891
00:14:16,380 --> 00:14:16,860
of handling

892
00:14:16,860 --> 00:14:17,280
data.

893
00:14:17,980 --> 00:14:18,340
And then if

894
00:14:18,340 --> 00:14:18,620
you look at

895
00:14:18,620 --> 00:14:19,020
sort of like

896
00:14:19,020 --> 00:14:19,720
orthodox

897
00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:20,820
microservices

898
00:14:20,820 --> 00:14:21,320
speak,

899
00:14:22,580 --> 00:14:22,800
like,

900
00:14:23,020 --> 00:14:24,140
every single

901
00:14:24,140 --> 00:14:25,080
service that

902
00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:25,540
you write,

903
00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:26,440
or microservice,

904
00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:26,880
I guess,

905
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:27,580
like,

906
00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:27,940
can make

907
00:14:27,940 --> 00:14:28,640
decisions about

908
00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:29,120
using its

909
00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:29,600
own data

910
00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:30,000
store.

911
00:14:31,060 --> 00:14:32,200
And so far,

912
00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:32,520
I haven't

913
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:33,180
reconciled in

914
00:14:33,180 --> 00:14:33,660
my mind,

915
00:14:33,820 --> 00:14:34,240
those two

916
00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:35,000
things seem

917
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:35,720
somewhat at

918
00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:36,100
odds.

919
00:14:36,380 --> 00:14:36,840
So the

920
00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:37,620
question is,

921
00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:38,520
when you look

922
00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:38,840
at, like,

923
00:14:38,900 --> 00:14:39,480
cloud-native

924
00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:40,400
architectures,

925
00:14:41,100 --> 00:14:41,360
like,

926
00:14:41,420 --> 00:14:41,840
how many

927
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:42,800
different types

928
00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:43,260
of data

929
00:14:43,260 --> 00:14:44,060
stores are there

930
00:14:44,060 --> 00:14:44,640
really out

931
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:44,860
there?

932
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:45,100
Like,

933
00:14:45,140 --> 00:14:45,440
do people

934
00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:45,800
end up

935
00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:46,260
choosing

936
00:14:46,260 --> 00:14:47,380
just a

937
00:14:47,380 --> 00:14:47,780
handful

938
00:14:47,780 --> 00:14:48,280
or a

939
00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:48,520
couple,

940
00:14:48,660 --> 00:14:48,960
or do

941
00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:49,440
they really

942
00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:50,160
just choose

943
00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:50,820
whatever makes

944
00:14:50,820 --> 00:14:51,340
sense for

945
00:14:51,340 --> 00:14:52,020
the service

946
00:14:52,020 --> 00:14:52,300
that we're

947
00:14:52,300 --> 00:14:52,520
using?

948
00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:52,740
And I

949
00:14:52,740 --> 00:14:53,480
think this

950
00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:53,720
is a

951
00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:54,260
perfect kind

952
00:14:54,260 --> 00:14:54,540
of thing

953
00:14:54,540 --> 00:14:54,840
for the

954
00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:55,440
two of

955
00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:55,680
us to

956
00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:55,900
kind of

957
00:14:55,900 --> 00:14:56,300
go over,

958
00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:56,480
right,

959
00:14:56,500 --> 00:14:56,660
in the

960
00:14:56,660 --> 00:14:57,100
sense that

961
00:14:57,100 --> 00:14:57,940
you can

962
00:14:57,940 --> 00:14:59,220
approach it

963
00:14:59,220 --> 00:14:59,700
very well

964
00:14:59,700 --> 00:15:00,060
from the

965
00:15:00,060 --> 00:15:00,540
operations

966
00:15:00,540 --> 00:15:01,020
side,

967
00:15:01,100 --> 00:15:01,360
and I

968
00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:01,780
can approach

969
00:15:01,780 --> 00:15:02,180
it nicely

970
00:15:02,180 --> 00:15:02,420
from,

971
00:15:02,540 --> 00:15:02,600
like,

972
00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:02,740
the

973
00:15:02,740 --> 00:15:03,000
ignorant

974
00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:03,520
developer.

975
00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:05,260
I'm like

976
00:15:05,260 --> 00:15:05,640
the person

977
00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:05,860
who would

978
00:15:05,860 --> 00:15:06,140
end up

979
00:15:06,140 --> 00:15:06,400
using

980
00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:07,040
MongoDB

981
00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:07,300
or

982
00:15:07,300 --> 00:15:07,600
whatever,

983
00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:08,080
which,

984
00:15:08,260 --> 00:15:08,460
you know,

985
00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:08,900
because it

986
00:15:08,900 --> 00:15:09,080
looks

987
00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:09,440
awesome.

988
00:15:10,860 --> 00:15:11,540
It's that

989
00:15:11,540 --> 00:15:12,900
dopamine drop

990
00:15:12,900 --> 00:15:13,220
that you get

991
00:15:13,220 --> 00:15:13,580
right at the

992
00:15:13,580 --> 00:15:13,860
first.

993
00:15:14,580 --> 00:15:15,020
Exactly.

994
00:15:15,220 --> 00:15:15,680
And especially

995
00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:16,200
like in a

996
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:16,760
microservices

997
00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:17,240
architecture.

998
00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:17,480
So,

999
00:15:17,540 --> 00:15:17,660
you know,

1000
00:15:17,700 --> 00:15:18,100
with Pivotal

1001
00:15:18,100 --> 00:15:18,660
Cloud Foundry,

1002
00:15:18,740 --> 00:15:19,060
it's like we

1003
00:15:19,060 --> 00:15:19,340
have all

1004
00:15:19,340 --> 00:15:19,680
sorts of

1005
00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:20,000
supported

1006
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:20,680
data services

1007
00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:21,020
that you

1008
00:15:21,020 --> 00:15:21,360
can use

1009
00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:21,920
self-service

1010
00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:23,100
and the

1011
00:15:23,100 --> 00:15:23,520
way you

1012
00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:23,880
end up

1013
00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:24,340
managing

1014
00:15:24,340 --> 00:15:24,620
them

1015
00:15:24,620 --> 00:15:24,940
can be

1016
00:15:24,940 --> 00:15:25,220
kind of

1017
00:15:25,220 --> 00:15:25,640
normalized.

1018
00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:26,760
But it

1019
00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:27,220
does raise

1020
00:15:27,220 --> 00:15:27,580
the question

1021
00:15:27,580 --> 00:15:27,740
of,

1022
00:15:27,900 --> 00:15:27,960
like,

1023
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:28,660
how many

1024
00:15:28,660 --> 00:15:29,060
different

1025
00:15:29,060 --> 00:15:29,640
data stores

1026
00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:29,940
do you

1027
00:15:29,940 --> 00:15:30,300
actually

1028
00:15:30,300 --> 00:15:30,620
want to

1029
00:15:30,620 --> 00:15:30,920
end up

1030
00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:31,320
using,

1031
00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:31,920
essentially?

1032
00:15:32,860 --> 00:15:33,320
So,

1033
00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:33,840
I was

1034
00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:34,420
once a

1035
00:15:34,420 --> 00:15:34,700
naive

1036
00:15:34,700 --> 00:15:35,220
developer.

1037
00:15:36,700 --> 00:15:36,820
So,

1038
00:15:36,980 --> 00:15:38,320
I probably

1039
00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:38,820
went through

1040
00:15:38,820 --> 00:15:39,440
this arc.

1041
00:15:41,300 --> 00:15:41,940
And I

1042
00:15:41,940 --> 00:15:42,580
think if you

1043
00:15:42,580 --> 00:15:43,140
look across

1044
00:15:43,140 --> 00:15:44,100
the types

1045
00:15:44,100 --> 00:15:45,380
of projects

1046
00:15:45,380 --> 00:15:45,880
and people

1047
00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:46,180
that do

1048
00:15:46,180 --> 00:15:46,500
these things,

1049
00:15:46,620 --> 00:15:47,000
I would,

1050
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:47,860
in my own

1051
00:15:47,860 --> 00:15:48,540
project,

1052
00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:48,960
if I was

1053
00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:49,560
running something

1054
00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:51,220
that was,

1055
00:15:51,300 --> 00:15:51,680
you know,

1056
00:15:51,700 --> 00:15:52,040
a small

1057
00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:52,300
team,

1058
00:15:52,380 --> 00:15:52,800
I would

1059
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:53,180
try to

1060
00:15:53,180 --> 00:15:54,020
minimize the

1061
00:15:54,020 --> 00:15:55,340
variation of

1062
00:15:55,340 --> 00:15:55,860
the different

1063
00:15:55,860 --> 00:15:56,780
databases,

1064
00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:57,580
right?

1065
00:15:57,620 --> 00:15:57,740
Like,

1066
00:15:57,760 --> 00:15:57,960
I don't

1067
00:15:57,960 --> 00:15:58,260
want to

1068
00:15:58,260 --> 00:15:58,640
have,

1069
00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:00,180
like,

1070
00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:00,740
there is

1071
00:16:00,740 --> 00:16:01,420
an operational

1072
00:16:01,420 --> 00:16:01,820
overhead,

1073
00:16:02,060 --> 00:16:02,460
there is a

1074
00:16:02,460 --> 00:16:03,960
cost of

1075
00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:04,880
ownership to

1076
00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:05,560
adding

1077
00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:06,460
complexity.

1078
00:16:06,660 --> 00:16:06,760
So,

1079
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:07,440
there's a

1080
00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:07,740
bunch of

1081
00:16:07,740 --> 00:16:08,680
things that

1082
00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:08,940
I think

1083
00:16:08,940 --> 00:16:09,280
the right

1084
00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:09,880
answer for

1085
00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:10,240
is,

1086
00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:11,400
you should

1087
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:11,860
just use

1088
00:16:11,860 --> 00:16:12,360
Postgres.

1089
00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:14,320
Like,

1090
00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:15,000
whatever comes

1091
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:15,240
out of your

1092
00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:15,420
mouth,

1093
00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:15,840
Postgres,

1094
00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:16,620
right?

1095
00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:16,880
Like,

1096
00:16:16,900 --> 00:16:17,280
that's the

1097
00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:17,520
deal.

1098
00:16:19,700 --> 00:16:20,140
Or,

1099
00:16:20,260 --> 00:16:20,500
you know,

1100
00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:21,440
you could make

1101
00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:21,800
it work with

1102
00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:22,360
MySQL or

1103
00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:22,740
something like

1104
00:16:22,740 --> 00:16:22,940
that,

1105
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:23,080
too.

1106
00:16:23,180 --> 00:16:23,300
But,

1107
00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:24,760
as you start

1108
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:25,180
to get into

1109
00:16:25,180 --> 00:16:25,900
more specialized

1110
00:16:25,900 --> 00:16:26,900
understanding of

1111
00:16:26,900 --> 00:16:27,220
what your

1112
00:16:27,220 --> 00:16:27,720
needs are,

1113
00:16:27,820 --> 00:16:28,200
what your

1114
00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:29,560
rights and

1115
00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:30,660
your reads

1116
00:16:30,660 --> 00:16:31,240
and a bunch

1117
00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:31,600
of these other

1118
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:31,920
things,

1119
00:16:32,260 --> 00:16:32,760
then it starts

1120
00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:33,140
to say,

1121
00:16:33,260 --> 00:16:33,400
okay,

1122
00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:33,780
like,

1123
00:16:34,140 --> 00:16:35,520
this is probably

1124
00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:36,260
a good fit for

1125
00:16:36,260 --> 00:16:36,800
Cassandra,

1126
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:37,560
or this is

1127
00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:38,320
probably a good

1128
00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:38,900
fit for,

1129
00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:39,440
you know,

1130
00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:39,840
some of these

1131
00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:40,260
other things

1132
00:16:40,260 --> 00:16:40,860
like Reoc.

1133
00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:42,340
And having

1134
00:16:42,340 --> 00:16:43,340
the ability to

1135
00:16:43,340 --> 00:16:44,180
make those

1136
00:16:44,180 --> 00:16:44,600
decisions

1137
00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:45,180
deliberately,

1138
00:16:45,380 --> 00:16:45,520
like,

1139
00:16:45,580 --> 00:16:45,900
with full

1140
00:16:45,900 --> 00:16:46,660
understanding of

1141
00:16:46,660 --> 00:16:46,960
what the

1142
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:47,340
costs and

1143
00:16:47,340 --> 00:16:48,040
benefits are,

1144
00:16:48,420 --> 00:16:48,920
is something

1145
00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:49,360
that,

1146
00:16:49,780 --> 00:16:50,080
you know,

1147
00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:50,480
there's

1148
00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:51,920
communities that

1149
00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:52,240
have these

1150
00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:52,460
kind of

1151
00:16:52,460 --> 00:16:52,880
discussions.

1152
00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:53,420
If you see

1153
00:16:53,420 --> 00:16:53,760
some of the

1154
00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:54,060
stuff,

1155
00:16:54,460 --> 00:16:55,180
conversations that

1156
00:16:55,180 --> 00:16:55,640
have gone on

1157
00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:56,320
in places like

1158
00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:57,140
Velocity and

1159
00:16:57,140 --> 00:16:58,400
DevOps Days and

1160
00:16:58,400 --> 00:16:59,520
Recon is coming

1161
00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:00,000
up as an

1162
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:01,540
interesting thing

1163
00:17:01,540 --> 00:17:02,260
as well.

1164
00:17:02,740 --> 00:17:02,840
Like,

1165
00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:03,640
there's that

1166
00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:04,140
body of

1167
00:17:04,140 --> 00:17:04,560
knowledge,

1168
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:05,240
but,

1169
00:17:05,300 --> 00:17:05,780
you know,

1170
00:17:05,860 --> 00:17:06,460
the spray and

1171
00:17:06,460 --> 00:17:06,700
pray,

1172
00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:06,960
like,

1173
00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:07,560
let's put every

1174
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:08,220
database into

1175
00:17:08,220 --> 00:17:08,800
the system,

1176
00:17:09,100 --> 00:17:09,760
I think that

1177
00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:11,160
ends up having

1178
00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:12,220
more operational

1179
00:17:12,220 --> 00:17:13,580
cost than

1180
00:17:13,580 --> 00:17:14,060
benefit.

1181
00:17:14,700 --> 00:17:15,120
Yeah,

1182
00:17:15,220 --> 00:17:15,620
sounds like

1183
00:17:15,620 --> 00:17:16,060
there's a lot

1184
00:17:16,060 --> 00:17:16,680
of praying that

1185
00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:17,320
happens as a

1186
00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:17,660
result.

1187
00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:19,880
I think,

1188
00:17:19,980 --> 00:17:20,320
honestly,

1189
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:21,460
you know,

1190
00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:21,940
and this is

1191
00:17:21,940 --> 00:17:22,640
something that

1192
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:23,880
I think all

1193
00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:24,320
of us have

1194
00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:24,660
to some

1195
00:17:24,660 --> 00:17:24,960
degree,

1196
00:17:25,220 --> 00:17:26,680
it's fun to

1197
00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:27,600
build things

1198
00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:28,020
with new

1199
00:17:28,020 --> 00:17:28,340
toys,

1200
00:17:28,820 --> 00:17:29,020
right?

1201
00:17:29,100 --> 00:17:29,600
And then

1202
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:30,540
those are

1203
00:17:30,540 --> 00:17:31,340
also resume

1204
00:17:31,340 --> 00:17:31,980
generating

1205
00:17:31,980 --> 00:17:32,900
events.

1206
00:17:33,740 --> 00:17:34,600
So if

1207
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:34,940
you,

1208
00:17:34,940 --> 00:17:37,040
you know,

1209
00:17:37,220 --> 00:17:37,780
read Hacker

1210
00:17:37,780 --> 00:17:38,500
News or

1211
00:17:38,500 --> 00:17:39,320
scan what

1212
00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:39,660
people are

1213
00:17:39,660 --> 00:17:39,980
talking about

1214
00:17:39,980 --> 00:17:40,400
on Twitter

1215
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:41,140
and you

1216
00:17:41,140 --> 00:17:41,560
hear someone

1217
00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:42,160
did something

1218
00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:42,580
with something,

1219
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:43,040
then you

1220
00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:43,360
kind of want

1221
00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:43,680
to see what

1222
00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:44,200
that's about.

1223
00:17:44,980 --> 00:17:45,340
But there's

1224
00:17:45,340 --> 00:17:45,640
also,

1225
00:17:46,060 --> 00:17:46,440
and there's

1226
00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:46,800
people that

1227
00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:47,120
are talking

1228
00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:47,520
about this,

1229
00:17:47,900 --> 00:17:48,400
explicitly,

1230
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:49,020
right?

1231
00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:50,060
Etsy is

1232
00:17:50,060 --> 00:17:51,640
heralded as

1233
00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:52,580
one of the

1234
00:17:52,580 --> 00:17:53,340
kind of more

1235
00:17:53,340 --> 00:17:54,940
advanced in

1236
00:17:54,940 --> 00:17:55,680
terms of DevOps

1237
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:57,620
and automation

1238
00:17:57,620 --> 00:17:58,480
and deployment

1239
00:17:58,480 --> 00:17:59,140
and continuous

1240
00:17:59,140 --> 00:17:59,700
delivery and all

1241
00:17:59,700 --> 00:18:00,100
this kind of

1242
00:18:00,100 --> 00:18:00,340
stuff.

1243
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:01,380
They also have

1244
00:18:01,380 --> 00:18:01,780
a great

1245
00:18:01,780 --> 00:18:02,260
culture.

1246
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:03,480
They blog

1247
00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:04,220
about the

1248
00:18:04,220 --> 00:18:05,100
craft and

1249
00:18:05,100 --> 00:18:05,400
blameless

1250
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:05,980
postmortems,

1251
00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:06,620
but they've

1252
00:18:06,620 --> 00:18:07,680
also been

1253
00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:08,280
very public

1254
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:09,480
about their

1255
00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:09,960
deliberate

1256
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:10,780
choice of

1257
00:18:10,780 --> 00:18:11,280
boring,

1258
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:11,960
boring

1259
00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:12,580
technology,

1260
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:13,020
right?

1261
00:18:13,020 --> 00:18:13,380
like they're

1262
00:18:13,380 --> 00:18:14,560
not trying

1263
00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:15,000
to drive

1264
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:15,500
everything

1265
00:18:15,500 --> 00:18:16,640
with the

1266
00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:17,280
newest,

1267
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:18,320
shiniest

1268
00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:18,760
toy.

1269
00:18:19,540 --> 00:18:20,680
They approach

1270
00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:21,600
things with

1271
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:22,840
the mindset

1272
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:23,520
that I know

1273
00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:24,200
how this

1274
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:24,780
will perform,

1275
00:18:24,900 --> 00:18:25,240
I know how

1276
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:25,560
this will

1277
00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:25,960
fail,

1278
00:18:26,220 --> 00:18:26,720
and if you

1279
00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:27,100
go look at

1280
00:18:27,100 --> 00:18:27,460
their tech

1281
00:18:27,460 --> 00:18:27,820
stack,

1282
00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:28,680
it's pretty

1283
00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:29,440
vanilla,

1284
00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:31,480
PHP running

1285
00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:32,300
on a

1286
00:18:32,300 --> 00:18:32,640
relational

1287
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:33,160
database.

1288
00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:34,040
There's

1289
00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:34,260
like

1290
00:18:34,260 --> 00:18:34,980
technologies

1291
00:18:34,980 --> 00:18:35,420
you can

1292
00:18:35,420 --> 00:18:35,840
trust.

1293
00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:37,660
Right.

1294
00:18:39,340 --> 00:18:39,780
And so

1295
00:18:39,780 --> 00:18:40,640
that should

1296
00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:40,960
not be

1297
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:41,540
discounted.

1298
00:18:41,660 --> 00:18:42,140
When you're

1299
00:18:42,140 --> 00:18:43,920
evaluating a

1300
00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:44,300
lot of the

1301
00:18:44,300 --> 00:18:44,660
new shiny

1302
00:18:44,660 --> 00:18:45,000
toys,

1303
00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:45,860
you don't

1304
00:18:45,860 --> 00:18:46,120
really

1305
00:18:46,120 --> 00:18:46,760
understand

1306
00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:47,780
what the

1307
00:18:47,780 --> 00:18:48,840
– so my

1308
00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:50,240
strategy,

1309
00:18:50,540 --> 00:18:51,200
like as a

1310
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:51,740
technologist,

1311
00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:52,500
I don't

1312
00:18:52,500 --> 00:18:53,460
actually like

1313
00:18:53,460 --> 00:18:54,660
living on the

1314
00:18:54,660 --> 00:18:55,300
bleeding edge

1315
00:18:55,300 --> 00:18:55,960
of technology.

1316
00:18:56,580 --> 00:18:57,220
I like

1317
00:18:57,220 --> 00:18:57,720
knowing that

1318
00:18:57,720 --> 00:18:58,140
it's there.

1319
00:18:58,400 --> 00:18:58,760
I like

1320
00:18:58,760 --> 00:18:59,780
reading about

1321
00:18:59,780 --> 00:19:00,060
it,

1322
00:19:00,460 --> 00:19:01,000
maybe even

1323
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:01,640
dabbling with

1324
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:01,900
it.

1325
00:19:02,300 --> 00:19:02,820
When it

1326
00:19:02,820 --> 00:19:03,120
comes to

1327
00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:03,320
putting

1328
00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:03,940
things into

1329
00:19:03,940 --> 00:19:04,460
production,

1330
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:05,300
I kind

1331
00:19:05,300 --> 00:19:05,520
of want

1332
00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:06,580
to – if

1333
00:19:06,580 --> 00:19:06,920
you think

1334
00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:07,280
about the

1335
00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:07,700
model of

1336
00:19:07,700 --> 00:19:08,180
the chasm,

1337
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:09,400
like I

1338
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:09,940
want to be

1339
00:19:09,940 --> 00:19:10,460
on the

1340
00:19:10,460 --> 00:19:10,900
front lip

1341
00:19:10,900 --> 00:19:11,180
of the

1342
00:19:11,180 --> 00:19:11,500
chasm,

1343
00:19:11,700 --> 00:19:12,040
basically.

1344
00:19:12,620 --> 00:19:13,000
Like that's

1345
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:14,640
where I

1346
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:15,060
think you

1347
00:19:15,060 --> 00:19:15,680
want to

1348
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:15,940
have

1349
00:19:15,940 --> 00:19:17,020
reconnaissance

1350
00:19:17,020 --> 00:19:17,600
to the

1351
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:19,120
early adopters

1352
00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:19,580
and the

1353
00:19:19,580 --> 00:19:20,200
rest of

1354
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:20,340
it,

1355
00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:21,780
but there's

1356
00:19:21,780 --> 00:19:22,120
a reason

1357
00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:22,500
it's called

1358
00:19:22,500 --> 00:19:22,860
the bleeding

1359
00:19:22,860 --> 00:19:23,220
edge,

1360
00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:23,600
and a lot

1361
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:24,880
of those

1362
00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:25,360
technologies

1363
00:19:25,360 --> 00:19:25,800
are not

1364
00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:26,240
viable.

1365
00:19:26,580 --> 00:19:26,760
Like they're

1366
00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:27,160
not going

1367
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:28,340
to be

1368
00:19:28,340 --> 00:19:28,600
there.

1369
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:29,760
So do

1370
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:30,360
you want

1371
00:19:30,360 --> 00:19:30,660
that to

1372
00:19:30,660 --> 00:19:30,980
be your

1373
00:19:30,980 --> 00:19:31,500
blood or

1374
00:19:31,500 --> 00:19:31,820
someone

1375
00:19:31,820 --> 00:19:32,260
else's?

1376
00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:37,400
Yeah,

1377
00:19:37,460 --> 00:19:37,820
that makes

1378
00:19:37,820 --> 00:19:38,080
sense.

1379
00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:40,900
Plus I'm

1380
00:19:40,900 --> 00:19:41,960
– I

1381
00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:42,200
don't know.

1382
00:19:42,900 --> 00:19:43,500
I think

1383
00:19:43,500 --> 00:19:44,620
there's a

1384
00:19:44,620 --> 00:19:45,460
fascination

1385
00:19:45,460 --> 00:19:46,200
with technology

1386
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:46,480
and then

1387
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:47,420
there's the

1388
00:19:47,420 --> 00:19:48,340
pragmatism of

1389
00:19:48,340 --> 00:19:48,980
trying to get

1390
00:19:48,980 --> 00:19:49,440
things done.

1391
00:19:49,540 --> 00:19:49,900
And I think

1392
00:19:49,900 --> 00:19:50,840
that that's

1393
00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:51,700
a pendulum

1394
00:19:51,700 --> 00:19:52,820
that swings

1395
00:19:52,820 --> 00:19:53,700
and as you

1396
00:19:53,700 --> 00:19:54,060
get new

1397
00:19:54,060 --> 00:19:54,680
paradigms and

1398
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:55,320
new technologies,

1399
00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:56,280
it can open

1400
00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:57,140
up different

1401
00:19:57,140 --> 00:19:57,840
opportunities to

1402
00:19:57,840 --> 00:19:58,360
be productive,

1403
00:19:58,920 --> 00:19:59,480
but you can

1404
00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:00,480
also spend a

1405
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:01,120
lot of time,

1406
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:02,300
waste a lot

1407
00:20:02,300 --> 00:20:03,700
of time with

1408
00:20:03,700 --> 00:20:05,220
technology that's

1409
00:20:05,220 --> 00:20:05,760
not really

1410
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:06,220
ready.

1411
00:20:06,340 --> 00:20:06,720
And I don't

1412
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:07,100
want to name

1413
00:20:07,100 --> 00:20:07,620
any projects,

1414
00:20:07,780 --> 00:20:08,280
but I have

1415
00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:09,120
some fairly

1416
00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:09,840
public rants

1417
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:10,920
about some

1418
00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:11,120
of these

1419
00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:11,440
types of

1420
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:11,700
things.

1421
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:14,300
And so

1422
00:20:14,300 --> 00:20:15,460
it seems

1423
00:20:15,460 --> 00:20:15,740
like, I

1424
00:20:15,740 --> 00:20:16,080
mean, so

1425
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:16,400
there's a

1426
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:16,980
general principle

1427
00:20:16,980 --> 00:20:17,600
to extract

1428
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:18,180
there, is

1429
00:20:18,180 --> 00:20:20,400
like, so

1430
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:20,760
you should

1431
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:21,780
probably choose

1432
00:20:21,780 --> 00:20:23,120
newly

1433
00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:23,760
mature

1434
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,120
parts of

1435
00:20:26,120 --> 00:20:26,720
your stack,

1436
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:27,340
right?

1437
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:28,080
Things that

1438
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:28,820
are, you

1439
00:20:28,820 --> 00:20:29,000
know, you

1440
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:29,260
don't want

1441
00:20:29,260 --> 00:20:29,620
them to be

1442
00:20:29,620 --> 00:20:30,420
too old

1443
00:20:30,420 --> 00:20:30,800
and slow

1444
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:31,240
moving and

1445
00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:31,700
crufty.

1446
00:20:32,260 --> 00:20:32,680
Mature is

1447
00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:32,980
a wrong

1448
00:20:32,980 --> 00:20:33,360
word, because

1449
00:20:33,360 --> 00:20:33,880
that connotes

1450
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:34,560
years, but

1451
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:34,880
it's more

1452
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:35,700
like you

1453
00:20:35,700 --> 00:20:36,080
want some

1454
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:36,440
assured

1455
00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:37,600
stability of

1456
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:38,360
what you

1457
00:20:38,360 --> 00:20:39,160
have, especially

1458
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:39,940
in the data

1459
00:20:39,940 --> 00:20:40,560
layer, which

1460
00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:41,640
might end

1461
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:43,000
up reducing

1462
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:43,880
the amount

1463
00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:44,400
of data

1464
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:44,840
stores you

1465
00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:45,240
can use,

1466
00:20:45,340 --> 00:20:45,520
right?

1467
00:20:45,580 --> 00:20:46,000
So, like,

1468
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:46,940
first of all,

1469
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:47,580
like, can

1470
00:20:47,580 --> 00:20:47,960
you just do

1471
00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:48,180
it with

1472
00:20:48,180 --> 00:20:48,680
Postgres?

1473
00:20:49,060 --> 00:20:49,360
Like, if

1474
00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:50,120
so, you

1475
00:20:50,120 --> 00:20:50,460
should probably

1476
00:20:50,460 --> 00:20:50,860
just use

1477
00:20:50,860 --> 00:20:51,160
that.

1478
00:20:51,700 --> 00:20:52,720
And then, if

1479
00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:53,120
you require

1480
00:20:53,120 --> 00:20:53,700
something like

1481
00:20:53,700 --> 00:20:54,080
above and

1482
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:54,700
beyond that,

1483
00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:55,660
then it's good

1484
00:20:55,660 --> 00:20:56,460
to have, like,

1485
00:20:56,540 --> 00:20:57,820
both operational

1486
00:20:57,820 --> 00:20:58,420
knowledge of,

1487
00:20:58,540 --> 00:20:58,860
like, can

1488
00:20:58,860 --> 00:20:59,340
we operate

1489
00:20:59,340 --> 00:20:59,880
this and is

1490
00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:00,380
it reliable?

1491
00:21:00,380 --> 00:21:00,960
And then also

1492
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:01,620
the developer

1493
00:21:01,620 --> 00:21:02,500
dopamine-driven

1494
00:21:02,500 --> 00:21:03,080
knowledge of,

1495
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:03,620
like, is this

1496
00:21:03,620 --> 00:21:04,340
really fast and

1497
00:21:04,340 --> 00:21:05,060
easy to use?

1498
00:21:05,620 --> 00:21:06,100
And have more

1499
00:21:06,100 --> 00:21:06,860
of a balanced

1500
00:21:06,860 --> 00:21:07,700
evaluation of

1501
00:21:07,700 --> 00:21:08,240
using those

1502
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:08,780
things, which,

1503
00:21:08,860 --> 00:21:09,520
which, getting

1504
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:10,160
back to my

1505
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:11,060
original question,

1506
00:21:11,060 --> 00:21:11,500
I think would

1507
00:21:11,500 --> 00:21:12,220
start to very

1508
00:21:12,220 --> 00:21:13,240
quickly call out,

1509
00:21:13,260 --> 00:21:14,020
like, way too

1510
00:21:14,020 --> 00:21:15,240
many data, or I

1511
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:15,500
shouldn't say

1512
00:21:15,500 --> 00:21:16,000
way too many,

1513
00:21:16,340 --> 00:21:17,260
call out having a

1514
00:21:17,260 --> 00:21:17,900
bunch of different

1515
00:21:17,900 --> 00:21:18,560
types of data

1516
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:19,260
stores in your

1517
00:21:19,260 --> 00:21:19,980
architectures,

1518
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:20,400
right?

1519
00:21:20,460 --> 00:21:21,000
Like, that'll

1520
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:21,660
whittle down to

1521
00:21:21,660 --> 00:21:22,100
just a few

1522
00:21:22,100 --> 00:21:22,640
things pretty

1523
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:23,000
quickly.

1524
00:21:23,700 --> 00:21:24,640
I think what

1525
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:24,940
it whittles

1526
00:21:24,940 --> 00:21:25,580
down to is a

1527
00:21:25,580 --> 00:21:26,460
few classes of

1528
00:21:26,460 --> 00:21:27,700
things, and

1529
00:21:27,700 --> 00:21:28,780
as you understand

1530
00:21:28,780 --> 00:21:31,320
the overhead of

1531
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:32,120
running those,

1532
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:33,100
the cost, I

1533
00:21:33,100 --> 00:21:33,940
mean, there is a

1534
00:21:33,940 --> 00:21:35,060
time when, you

1535
00:21:35,060 --> 00:21:35,360
know, there's a

1536
00:21:35,360 --> 00:21:36,080
new database that

1537
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:37,920
came out, I'm

1538
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:38,340
not going to name

1539
00:21:38,340 --> 00:21:39,240
any names, but

1540
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:40,200
if you know this,

1541
00:21:40,300 --> 00:21:40,980
then you've

1542
00:21:40,980 --> 00:21:41,520
probably been

1543
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:42,020
paying attention,

1544
00:21:42,580 --> 00:21:43,540
and they published

1545
00:21:43,540 --> 00:21:44,420
a bunch of

1546
00:21:44,420 --> 00:21:45,820
benchmarks, and

1547
00:21:45,820 --> 00:21:46,320
it's like, oh,

1548
00:21:46,360 --> 00:21:47,100
we're faster than

1549
00:21:47,100 --> 00:21:47,460
these other

1550
00:21:47,460 --> 00:21:48,460
databases, okay.

1551
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:49,480
Well, then you go

1552
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:50,000
look at what they

1553
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:51,540
were doing, and

1554
00:21:51,540 --> 00:21:53,260
they were taking

1555
00:21:53,260 --> 00:21:54,880
writes, but never

1556
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:55,540
putting them on

1557
00:21:55,540 --> 00:21:56,640
disk, right?

1558
00:21:57,120 --> 00:21:57,600
Right.

1559
00:21:58,060 --> 00:21:59,220
And so that was

1560
00:21:59,220 --> 00:22:01,920
a trick that

1561
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:02,680
says, okay, like,

1562
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:03,460
you wrote something

1563
00:22:03,460 --> 00:22:04,960
to this, and

1564
00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:05,960
then it wasn't

1565
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:06,660
actually written.

1566
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:08,860
So it was faster,

1567
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:09,860
but it wasn't

1568
00:22:09,860 --> 00:22:10,800
actually doing the

1569
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:12,640
same work, so it

1570
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:13,740
was only an

1571
00:22:13,740 --> 00:22:16,820
illusion of, it

1572
00:22:16,820 --> 00:22:17,420
was an illusion

1573
00:22:17,420 --> 00:22:18,820
of speed, and

1574
00:22:18,820 --> 00:22:19,440
the trade-off

1575
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:20,720
was you never

1576
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:21,280
actually wrote

1577
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:22,180
your data, and

1578
00:22:22,180 --> 00:22:22,940
so a bunch of

1579
00:22:22,940 --> 00:22:24,200
people implemented

1580
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,040
this database, and

1581
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:27,000
then they ended

1582
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:27,920
up in situations

1583
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:29,320
where they lost

1584
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:31,240
data, right, or

1585
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:31,600
they couldn't

1586
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:32,440
recover from

1587
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:33,260
certain types of

1588
00:22:33,260 --> 00:22:34,500
failure, and

1589
00:22:34,500 --> 00:22:37,160
that's the type

1590
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:37,720
of operational

1591
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:38,220
maturity I'm

1592
00:22:38,220 --> 00:22:38,600
talking about.

1593
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:39,060
It's like, what

1594
00:22:39,060 --> 00:22:39,940
is the trade-off?

1595
00:22:39,980 --> 00:22:40,420
And maybe there

1596
00:22:40,420 --> 00:22:41,000
are situations

1597
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:42,040
where it makes

1598
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:43,680
sense to have

1599
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:44,880
that be the

1600
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:45,320
thing you're

1601
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:46,160
optimizing for.

1602
00:22:46,300 --> 00:22:46,760
It's like, I

1603
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:47,640
don't care about

1604
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,720
this, I can

1605
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:51,020
deal with that

1606
00:22:51,020 --> 00:22:51,720
failure mode, and

1607
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:52,880
that's fine, and

1608
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:53,660
I'll take that

1609
00:22:53,660 --> 00:22:55,600
trade-off, but

1610
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:56,500
basically you should

1611
00:22:56,500 --> 00:22:57,040
realize that's

1612
00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:58,700
ephemeral data that

1613
00:22:58,700 --> 00:22:59,220
is not going to

1614
00:22:59,220 --> 00:22:59,720
be written to

1615
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:01,080
disk, or it's

1616
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:01,400
not going to be

1617
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:01,900
written to disk

1618
00:23:01,900 --> 00:23:03,360
when you thought

1619
00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:03,780
it was.

1620
00:23:04,120 --> 00:23:07,700
That realization, that

1621
00:23:07,700 --> 00:23:09,080
maturity, being able

1622
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:09,940
to analyze those

1623
00:23:09,940 --> 00:23:11,060
trade-offs is what

1624
00:23:11,060 --> 00:23:12,620
I consider system

1625
00:23:12,620 --> 00:23:13,780
architecture, which

1626
00:23:13,780 --> 00:23:14,660
is, I'm going to

1627
00:23:14,660 --> 00:23:15,220
go on a slight

1628
00:23:15,220 --> 00:23:15,900
rant for a second.

1629
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:17,920
There's this notion

1630
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:19,060
of architecture that's

1631
00:23:19,060 --> 00:23:19,640
getting discussed

1632
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:21,440
right now that is

1633
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,220
sort of ivory tower

1634
00:23:25,220 --> 00:23:28,720
focused on code, and

1635
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:30,120
we're going to talk

1636
00:23:30,120 --> 00:23:31,220
about the code, and

1637
00:23:31,220 --> 00:23:32,220
it's like, we

1638
00:23:32,220 --> 00:23:32,600
have these

1639
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:33,360
separations of

1640
00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:34,220
concerns, and

1641
00:23:34,220 --> 00:23:34,900
solid, and all

1642
00:23:34,900 --> 00:23:35,460
this stuff, and

1643
00:23:35,460 --> 00:23:37,740
that's not bad, but

1644
00:23:37,740 --> 00:23:38,460
there's like this

1645
00:23:38,460 --> 00:23:40,120
missing discussion

1646
00:23:40,120 --> 00:23:40,980
about system

1647
00:23:40,980 --> 00:23:42,920
architecture, that

1648
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:43,760
there's a few

1649
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:44,560
people, and you

1650
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:45,640
sort of see this

1651
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,080
slightly discussed,

1652
00:23:47,180 --> 00:23:47,920
although it's not as

1653
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:48,880
explicitly as I'd

1654
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:49,920
like, at places like

1655
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:51,260
velocity, and

1656
00:23:51,260 --> 00:23:52,440
surge, and maybe

1657
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:53,480
some DevOps

1658
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:54,020
days, but there's

1659
00:23:54,020 --> 00:23:55,860
this gap between

1660
00:23:55,860 --> 00:23:57,700
architecture that

1661
00:23:57,700 --> 00:23:58,620
people talk about

1662
00:23:58,620 --> 00:23:59,560
with respect to

1663
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:00,880
code, and then

1664
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:01,580
like the actual

1665
00:24:01,580 --> 00:24:02,580
system architecture

1666
00:24:02,580 --> 00:24:04,300
that I feel like

1667
00:24:04,300 --> 00:24:05,120
there's a body of

1668
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:05,740
knowledge, and

1669
00:24:05,740 --> 00:24:06,500
there's practitioners

1670
00:24:06,500 --> 00:24:07,620
that kind of

1671
00:24:07,620 --> 00:24:08,760
internalize this

1672
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:09,280
stuff, but there's

1673
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:10,320
not great resources,

1674
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:11,520
and there's not

1675
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:12,860
great conversations

1676
00:24:12,860 --> 00:24:13,640
or communities

1677
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:15,040
where people are

1678
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:15,960
able to kind of,

1679
00:24:16,740 --> 00:24:17,440
like you basically

1680
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:18,080
have to learn it

1681
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:18,860
the hard way right

1682
00:24:18,860 --> 00:24:19,440
now, and that

1683
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:21,460
sucks, and that's

1684
00:24:21,460 --> 00:24:22,740
when I go into

1685
00:24:22,740 --> 00:24:24,000
places, and we

1686
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:24,560
have conversations

1687
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:25,120
with customers,

1688
00:24:25,300 --> 00:24:25,680
and we see

1689
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:26,000
some of the

1690
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:26,980
stuff that's

1691
00:24:26,980 --> 00:24:27,600
going on in the

1692
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:29,200
field, like I

1693
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:29,900
really wish there

1694
00:24:29,900 --> 00:24:30,760
was these resources

1695
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:31,260
where you could

1696
00:24:31,260 --> 00:24:32,480
say, okay, here's

1697
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:32,860
how you should

1698
00:24:32,860 --> 00:24:33,460
think about these

1699
00:24:33,460 --> 00:24:34,240
problems, like if

1700
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:34,700
you want to move

1701
00:24:34,700 --> 00:24:35,720
fast, you want to

1702
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:36,380
move at scale,

1703
00:24:36,820 --> 00:24:37,520
here's a bunch of

1704
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:38,800
properties around

1705
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:39,940
systems and

1706
00:24:39,940 --> 00:24:40,760
architectures, and

1707
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:42,000
I think some of

1708
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:42,940
that sort of falls

1709
00:24:42,940 --> 00:24:43,620
out when you start

1710
00:24:43,620 --> 00:24:44,560
framing things in

1711
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:45,960
terms of promises

1712
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:47,540
and contracts, but

1713
00:24:47,540 --> 00:24:48,380
there's just like

1714
00:24:48,380 --> 00:24:49,960
this hands-on,

1715
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:51,940
kind of knee-deep

1716
00:24:51,940 --> 00:24:52,980
in the mud, chest-deep

1717
00:24:52,980 --> 00:24:53,580
in the mud

1718
00:24:53,580 --> 00:24:54,540
experience, and

1719
00:24:54,540 --> 00:24:56,180
conversations with

1720
00:24:56,180 --> 00:24:57,140
people who've been

1721
00:24:57,140 --> 00:24:58,060
through that, that's

1722
00:24:58,060 --> 00:24:58,920
really lacking, and

1723
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:00,160
I wish there was a

1724
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:01,500
fast way to give

1725
00:25:01,500 --> 00:25:02,000
people that

1726
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:02,700
knowledge, but I

1727
00:25:02,700 --> 00:25:03,360
haven't figured out

1728
00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:03,800
how to do it.

1729
00:25:04,220 --> 00:25:05,000
Yeah, well, I

1730
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:06,140
mean, we've

1731
00:25:06,140 --> 00:25:06,640
talked about this

1732
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:08,280
before, but it

1733
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,020
feels like across

1734
00:25:11,020 --> 00:25:12,400
the industry, that

1735
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:13,260
is sort of like

1736
00:25:13,260 --> 00:25:14,700
across the vendors

1737
00:25:14,700 --> 00:25:15,500
and people who are

1738
00:25:15,500 --> 00:25:16,140
developing these

1739
00:25:16,140 --> 00:25:17,600
technologies, at

1740
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:18,060
the moment,

1741
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:19,560
collectively, we're

1742
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:20,600
not really interested

1743
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,460
in having a known

1744
00:25:22,460 --> 00:25:23,560
de facto standard,

1745
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:24,520
like everyone

1746
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,880
across stacks

1747
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,160
talks about how

1748
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,180
they accomplish a

1749
00:25:31,180 --> 00:25:31,920
common systems

1750
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:33,000
architecture differently,

1751
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:33,420
right?

1752
00:25:33,420 --> 00:25:33,960
Like, they all have

1753
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:34,720
different words for it,

1754
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:34,980
and they don't

1755
00:25:34,980 --> 00:25:35,880
necessarily unify

1756
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:36,800
together so much,

1757
00:25:36,940 --> 00:25:38,200
and as a result, you

1758
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:38,920
don't have sort of

1759
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,740
like a common, like,

1760
00:25:41,740 --> 00:25:42,300
I don't know if we're

1761
00:25:42,300 --> 00:25:43,060
even at the state where

1762
00:25:43,060 --> 00:25:43,780
we're like, we have a

1763
00:25:43,780 --> 00:25:44,880
common concept like a

1764
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:45,900
three-tier architecture,

1765
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,480
or like, or I guess one

1766
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:49,240
of the more recent ones

1767
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:50,420
was the lamp stack,

1768
00:25:50,660 --> 00:25:50,880
right?

1769
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:51,640
Where it was like,

1770
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:53,220
this is the general

1771
00:25:53,220 --> 00:25:53,940
pattern that you're

1772
00:25:53,940 --> 00:25:54,780
going to follow, and

1773
00:25:54,780 --> 00:25:56,380
what P means might be

1774
00:25:56,380 --> 00:25:57,980
different between, you

1775
00:25:57,980 --> 00:25:58,620
know, all sorts of

1776
00:25:58,620 --> 00:25:59,180
things, and might

1777
00:25:59,180 --> 00:26:00,320
actually be an R instead

1778
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:01,120
of a P or whatever,

1779
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:02,680
but like, it's basically

1780
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:03,740
the same stack, which

1781
00:26:03,740 --> 00:26:04,560
implies the same

1782
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:05,120
architecture.

1783
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:06,360
But at the moment,

1784
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:06,880
there's so much

1785
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:08,020
fragmentation out there

1786
00:26:08,020 --> 00:26:09,600
with all the, I don't

1787
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:10,400
know, various

1788
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:11,420
infrastructure stuff,

1789
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:13,020
that it's almost like

1790
00:26:13,020 --> 00:26:13,940
we're saying the same

1791
00:26:13,940 --> 00:26:14,700
thing, but using

1792
00:26:14,700 --> 00:26:15,640
different languages.

1793
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:16,680
And, you know, we

1794
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:17,480
have the Cloud Foundry

1795
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:18,340
community that all kind

1796
00:26:18,340 --> 00:26:19,200
of speaks the same,

1797
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:20,620
but there's other

1798
00:26:20,620 --> 00:26:21,660
clusters out there who

1799
00:26:21,660 --> 00:26:22,460
are speaking differently.

1800
00:26:22,660 --> 00:26:24,180
So, as a result, when

1801
00:26:24,180 --> 00:26:24,720
you go out there and

1802
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:26,600
talk with people, you

1803
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:27,440
almost have to start

1804
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:28,900
from scratch and

1805
00:26:28,900 --> 00:26:29,960
triangulate and figure

1806
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:31,260
out the common terms

1807
00:26:31,260 --> 00:26:32,940
and words that all map

1808
00:26:32,940 --> 00:26:33,960
to that sort of like

1809
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:35,100
bucket of common

1810
00:26:35,100 --> 00:26:35,980
systems knowledge,

1811
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,220
which is varying

1812
00:26:39,220 --> 00:26:40,060
degrees of helpful

1813
00:26:40,060 --> 00:26:40,780
depending on what

1814
00:26:40,780 --> 00:26:41,880
you're interested in and

1815
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:42,740
are trying to

1816
00:26:42,740 --> 00:26:43,160
accomplish.

1817
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:44,360
I mean, I think

1818
00:26:44,360 --> 00:26:45,340
that's all, that's

1819
00:26:45,340 --> 00:26:46,460
actually great and

1820
00:26:46,460 --> 00:26:47,140
it's exciting.

1821
00:26:47,900 --> 00:26:49,760
It's, it's the, the

1822
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:50,820
process where you go

1823
00:26:50,820 --> 00:26:52,960
from innovation to

1824
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:54,400
kind of productization.

1825
00:26:54,620 --> 00:26:55,660
There's a, there's,

1826
00:26:55,780 --> 00:26:56,640
there tends to be a

1827
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,980
Cambrian explosion of,

1828
00:26:58,980 --> 00:26:59,820
of approaches.

1829
00:27:00,300 --> 00:27:01,740
And then, you know, I

1830
00:27:01,740 --> 00:27:04,000
expect that to, I

1831
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:04,720
won't, I won't say it

1832
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:06,040
will, it will collapse,

1833
00:27:06,060 --> 00:27:08,160
but you, you'll emerge

1834
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:09,760
with the, the standards

1835
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:11,100
based on, you know,

1836
00:27:11,140 --> 00:27:13,660
de facto or, or, you

1837
00:27:13,660 --> 00:27:15,000
know, I, I, I'm not

1838
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:16,140
always the biggest fan

1839
00:27:16,140 --> 00:27:18,340
of, um, standards

1840
00:27:18,340 --> 00:27:19,440
bodies, right.

1841
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:20,380
And committee driven

1842
00:27:20,380 --> 00:27:21,140
standards.

1843
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:22,920
But as, as those

1844
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,080
things emerge, uh, and,

1845
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,520
and the utility of

1846
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:28,400
those things emerge,

1847
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:29,800
then it doesn't make

1848
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:30,640
sense for everyone to

1849
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:31,240
kind of reinvent

1850
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:32,700
everything from first

1851
00:27:32,700 --> 00:27:33,560
principles all the

1852
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:33,880
time.

1853
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:35,360
Uh, but, but we're

1854
00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:36,260
kind of in that phase

1855
00:27:36,260 --> 00:27:37,220
where we're transitioning

1856
00:27:37,220 --> 00:27:37,820
to this new

1857
00:27:37,820 --> 00:27:39,280
architecture and everyone

1858
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:40,200
can kind of feel it in

1859
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:40,780
their bones.

1860
00:27:41,380 --> 00:27:42,720
And, you

1861
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,260
know, we, we've, we've

1862
00:27:44,260 --> 00:27:45,520
picked up the mantle of

1863
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:46,440
cloud native and that's

1864
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:47,400
the way we're, we're

1865
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:47,980
framing it.

1866
00:27:47,980 --> 00:27:49,080
And we're seeing more

1867
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:49,660
and more of the

1868
00:27:49,660 --> 00:27:51,260
industry adopt that same

1869
00:27:51,260 --> 00:27:52,120
kind of verbiage.

1870
00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:53,200
And, and they're all

1871
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:54,160
sort of saying the same

1872
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:55,580
kind of thing, uh,

1873
00:27:55,580 --> 00:27:56,380
although they might have

1874
00:27:56,380 --> 00:27:58,000
slightly different, uh,

1875
00:27:58,000 --> 00:27:58,440
approaches.

1876
00:27:58,440 --> 00:27:59,580
and some of that just

1877
00:27:59,580 --> 00:28:02,140
comes down to, some of

1878
00:28:02,140 --> 00:28:02,800
it comes down to

1879
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,000
politics and what all,

1880
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:06,040
you know, and I say

1881
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:06,820
this all the time.

1882
00:28:06,820 --> 00:28:07,620
It's like basically

1883
00:28:07,620 --> 00:28:09,340
technology is driven by

1884
00:28:09,340 --> 00:28:11,040
fashion and tribalism

1885
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:12,480
much more than it's,

1886
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:13,460
than it's driven by

1887
00:28:13,460 --> 00:28:15,240
logic and, and reason.

1888
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:16,960
And, and we're just

1889
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:18,600
watching that play out

1890
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,300
in, in, uh, in our

1891
00:28:20,300 --> 00:28:20,680
space.

1892
00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:22,120
Yeah, no, no.

1893
00:28:22,180 --> 00:28:23,080
And, and I, and I think

1894
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:23,740
I've, I've been seeing

1895
00:28:23,740 --> 00:28:24,320
that trajectory,

1896
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,000
especially, uh, since

1897
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:26,640
I've been at Pivotal

1898
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:27,400
since the beginning of

1899
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:28,060
this year, but even

1900
00:28:28,060 --> 00:28:28,860
back when I was an

1901
00:28:28,860 --> 00:28:29,920
analyst, there is a,

1902
00:28:29,980 --> 00:28:31,940
uh, uh, it's, it's

1903
00:28:31,940 --> 00:28:33,000
almost like a, I

1904
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:34,080
wouldn't say drunken,

1905
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:35,520
but a mildly buzzed

1906
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:36,740
meander down the street

1907
00:28:36,740 --> 00:28:38,000
to coalesce to the

1908
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:38,700
same stack.

1909
00:28:38,940 --> 00:28:40,380
So, so you see, uh,

1910
00:28:40,620 --> 00:28:41,180
you know, and, and,

1911
00:28:41,180 --> 00:28:42,160
and there's cheesy

1912
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:43,080
ways you can track it.

1913
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:43,820
You can sort of like

1914
00:28:43,820 --> 00:28:45,240
see the, uh, the sort

1915
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:46,380
of weekly infographic

1916
00:28:46,380 --> 00:28:47,880
that comes out or, uh,

1917
00:28:48,100 --> 00:28:48,580
kind of see the

1918
00:28:48,580 --> 00:28:49,020
evolution.

1919
00:28:49,020 --> 00:28:49,660
Like we're in

1920
00:28:49,660 --> 00:28:50,580
conference season now.

1921
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:51,200
So you can see the

1922
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:52,620
evolution of the, the

1923
00:28:52,620 --> 00:28:53,700
corporate slides that

1924
00:28:53,700 --> 00:28:54,740
describe the stack

1925
00:28:54,740 --> 00:28:55,400
and they're all

1926
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:56,120
starting to kind of

1927
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:57,100
look the same and

1928
00:28:57,100 --> 00:28:58,100
have similar layers

1929
00:28:58,100 --> 00:28:59,580
and, uh, we'll just,

1930
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:00,340
we'll just be in that

1931
00:29:00,340 --> 00:29:01,200
kind of battle to have

1932
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:02,620
the exact words of

1933
00:29:02,620 --> 00:29:03,240
what they're applied

1934
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:03,440
to.

1935
00:29:03,580 --> 00:29:04,460
But I think the

1936
00:29:04,460 --> 00:29:05,540
thing that's clear is

1937
00:29:05,540 --> 00:29:06,460
that there's a, there's

1938
00:29:06,460 --> 00:29:07,320
a new way to do

1939
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:07,840
things.

1940
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:09,440
There's, there's going

1941
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:10,680
to be a transition

1942
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,340
from, you know,

1943
00:29:12,340 --> 00:29:13,560
whatever we, we've

1944
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:14,220
already kind of touched

1945
00:29:14,220 --> 00:29:15,640
on this sort of app

1946
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:17,260
server that came out

1947
00:29:17,260 --> 00:29:18,200
and try to solve

1948
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:19,100
problems, but that

1949
00:29:19,100 --> 00:29:20,600
technology hasn't

1950
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:21,600
really evolved for the

1951
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:22,460
last 10 years.

1952
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:24,760
And so the, the

1953
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:26,660
enterprise people, um,

1954
00:29:26,740 --> 00:29:27,220
you know, the

1955
00:29:27,220 --> 00:29:28,040
startup people, they're

1956
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:28,920
all kind of finding

1957
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:30,220
this new way to do

1958
00:29:30,220 --> 00:29:31,160
things and that

1959
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:32,940
whatever that next

1960
00:29:32,940 --> 00:29:34,640
thing is, is we're,

1961
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:35,280
we're basically

1962
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:36,460
inventing it together

1963
00:29:36,460 --> 00:29:37,460
every day.

1964
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:39,360
So, so then as the

1965
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:40,720
last topic, let, let

1966
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:42,020
me, uh, we'll go to a

1967
00:29:42,020 --> 00:29:43,080
whole other part of the

1968
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:44,040
stack, so to speak,

1969
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:45,400
and, uh, just get your

1970
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,260
take on, on something

1971
00:29:47,260 --> 00:29:47,900
I've been noticing

1972
00:29:47,900 --> 00:29:48,400
recently.

1973
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:50,780
Um, so I, I've, I've

1974
00:29:50,780 --> 00:29:52,120
gone to speak at, uh,

1975
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:52,960
several like internal

1976
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:54,320
tech summit recent tech

1977
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:55,160
summits at companies

1978
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:56,620
recently, and it's been

1979
00:29:56,620 --> 00:29:57,320
really encouraging

1980
00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:58,720
because the high level

1981
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:00,340
management is basically

1982
00:30:00,340 --> 00:30:02,460
saying, um, to the

1983
00:30:02,460 --> 00:30:03,760
staff, we'll just put

1984
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:05,540
it that way, like you

1985
00:30:05,540 --> 00:30:06,420
should go out and do

1986
00:30:06,420 --> 00:30:08,000
new stuff, right?

1987
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:09,040
Like, like we, we

1988
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:10,160
want you to like look

1989
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:11,320
for new ways of doing

1990
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:12,740
things and be creative

1991
00:30:12,740 --> 00:30:15,220
and really explore, uh,

1992
00:30:15,220 --> 00:30:16,180
new ways of doing

1993
00:30:16,180 --> 00:30:16,620
things.

1994
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:18,820
And, um, I've seen a

1995
00:30:18,820 --> 00:30:19,620
couple of examples

1996
00:30:19,620 --> 00:30:21,380
firsthand, uh, where

1997
00:30:21,380 --> 00:30:23,280
I guess the staff kind

1998
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:24,400
of doesn't believe them

1999
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:25,380
and, and they're still

2000
00:30:25,380 --> 00:30:26,440
almost shelled shocked

2001
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:27,560
from like a command and

2002
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:28,560
control structure of

2003
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:29,180
doing things.

2004
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:31,620
And, you know, I, I've,

2005
00:30:31,700 --> 00:30:32,660
I, I have my own

2006
00:30:32,660 --> 00:30:33,480
things that I tell like

2007
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:34,580
the management class

2008
00:30:34,580 --> 00:30:35,280
and the, uh, the

2009
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:36,260
staff class about how

2010
00:30:36,260 --> 00:30:36,820
that'll like get over

2011
00:30:36,820 --> 00:30:37,460
that divide.

2012
00:30:37,940 --> 00:30:39,080
But, but I'm curious

2013
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,460
like, uh, how you like

2014
00:30:41,460 --> 00:30:42,840
sort of talk people

2015
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:43,720
through that in the

2016
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:45,640
sense of, we actually

2017
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:46,700
generally want you to

2018
00:30:46,700 --> 00:30:47,120
go out.

2019
00:30:47,260 --> 00:30:47,960
And this is where the

2020
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:49,000
example that comes out

2021
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,000
is, so we've picked a

2022
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:51,900
project that you can

2023
00:30:51,900 --> 00:30:53,960
basically learn from

2024
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:55,360
that is you can kind of

2025
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,440
fail and we in the

2026
00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:58,460
management level would

2027
00:30:58,460 --> 00:30:59,460
really like you to tell

2028
00:30:59,460 --> 00:31:00,580
us the failures and the

2029
00:31:00,580 --> 00:31:01,520
learnings that you have.

2030
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:02,460
And, and they're really

2031
00:31:02,460 --> 00:31:03,540
working on building up

2032
00:31:03,540 --> 00:31:04,620
that trust between

2033
00:31:04,620 --> 00:31:05,620
these two levels at the

2034
00:31:05,620 --> 00:31:05,880
moment.

2035
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:07,200
And, and what I've

2036
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:08,100
noticed recently is

2037
00:31:08,100 --> 00:31:09,760
that the, the staff

2038
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,880
level layers, like it

2039
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:12,900
takes a big leap of

2040
00:31:12,900 --> 00:31:13,700
faith for them to do

2041
00:31:13,700 --> 00:31:14,000
that.

2042
00:31:14,940 --> 00:31:15,800
And so it's almost

2043
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:17,060
like, I'm, I'm, I'm,

2044
00:31:17,060 --> 00:31:18,480
I'm always theorizing

2045
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:19,720
and curious about how,

2046
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:21,700
how the, the, the

2047
00:31:21,700 --> 00:31:22,720
managers, if you will,

2048
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:23,560
can start to kind of

2049
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:24,840
construct these trust

2050
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:26,060
lessons that are sort

2051
00:31:26,060 --> 00:31:27,020
of like metaphoric

2052
00:31:27,020 --> 00:31:28,000
falling backwards and

2053
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:28,560
catching them.

2054
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:29,820
But it's, it's

2055
00:31:29,820 --> 00:31:30,600
something that's been

2056
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:31,460
popping up more and

2057
00:31:31,460 --> 00:31:32,460
more that I think is an

2058
00:31:32,460 --> 00:31:33,280
interesting thing we

2059
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:34,160
should be advising

2060
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:35,000
people on more.

2061
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:37,560
Yeah, I think this is a

2062
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:38,420
fascinating thing to

2063
00:31:38,420 --> 00:31:40,400
watch and it's something

2064
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,520
that the, you know, I'll

2065
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:43,240
just keep saying this

2066
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:44,380
word over and over the

2067
00:31:44,380 --> 00:31:46,500
cloud natives realized a

2068
00:31:46,500 --> 00:31:48,280
while ago, but, but

2069
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:49,400
we're seeing more and

2070
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:50,200
more of the enterprises

2071
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:51,980
start to realize this,

2072
00:31:52,060 --> 00:31:55,160
which is that software

2073
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:56,740
technology, these things

2074
00:31:56,740 --> 00:31:57,520
are a competitive

2075
00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:59,400
advantage, not a, not a

2076
00:31:59,400 --> 00:31:59,860
cost center.

2077
00:32:00,100 --> 00:32:01,140
It's not a, you

2078
00:32:01,140 --> 00:32:02,200
know, nice to have.

2079
00:32:02,740 --> 00:32:04,500
And, and then the

2080
00:32:04,500 --> 00:32:05,040
other thing that's

2081
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:06,840
driving this is when

2082
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:07,680
you, when you really

2083
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:08,980
understand what it

2084
00:32:08,980 --> 00:32:09,840
takes to make great

2085
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:11,740
software, you realize

2086
00:32:11,740 --> 00:32:12,860
it's not a, it's not a

2087
00:32:12,860 --> 00:32:13,320
science.

2088
00:32:13,460 --> 00:32:14,660
It's closer to art.

2089
00:32:14,860 --> 00:32:16,320
It's a creative act.

2090
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,160
And the, the types of

2091
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,260
work that you manage

2092
00:32:21,260 --> 00:32:22,200
with what are, you

2093
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:23,700
know, essentially the

2094
00:32:23,700 --> 00:32:24,980
industrial processes

2095
00:32:24,980 --> 00:32:27,800
that kind of came from

2096
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:28,940
literally the industrial

2097
00:32:28,940 --> 00:32:29,540
revolution.

2098
00:32:30,340 --> 00:32:31,300
If you try to manage

2099
00:32:31,300 --> 00:32:32,820
software with that kind

2100
00:32:32,820 --> 00:32:33,720
of command and control

2101
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,660
approach, then you, you

2102
00:32:35,660 --> 00:32:36,640
don't tend to get the,

2103
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:37,900
the best outcomes.

2104
00:32:38,660 --> 00:32:39,980
And so, so that

2105
00:32:39,980 --> 00:32:41,280
transition, and I think

2106
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:42,060
it's hard for both

2107
00:32:42,060 --> 00:32:42,320
sides.

2108
00:32:42,380 --> 00:32:44,040
It's not just the, it's

2109
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:44,700
not just the quote

2110
00:32:44,700 --> 00:32:45,860
unquote underliens that

2111
00:32:45,860 --> 00:32:47,760
are struggling with that

2112
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:48,080
trust.

2113
00:32:48,100 --> 00:32:49,200
It's also the, the

2114
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:50,300
managers, it's also the

2115
00:32:50,300 --> 00:32:52,640
organizations where, and

2116
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:53,420
I think this is one of

2117
00:32:53,420 --> 00:32:53,800
the things that's

2118
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:54,140
interesting.

2119
00:32:54,140 --> 00:32:55,400
If you look across the,

2120
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:56,860
the majority of the

2121
00:32:56,860 --> 00:32:58,140
cloud native companies

2122
00:32:58,480 --> 00:32:59,880
companies, you know, or

2123
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:01,040
like the, the big tech

2124
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:01,980
giants, right?

2125
00:33:02,060 --> 00:33:02,200
Right.

2126
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:03,440
They, they're kind of

2127
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,400
the, the newly emerged

2128
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,380
tech elite are by

2129
00:33:07,380 --> 00:33:08,740
and large led by

2130
00:33:08,740 --> 00:33:10,800
technologists at the, at

2131
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:11,620
the highest level of

2132
00:33:11,620 --> 00:33:12,360
their executives.

2133
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:12,660
Right.

2134
00:33:12,860 --> 00:33:13,840
Where, where for the,

2135
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,040
for the enterprise, um,

2136
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:18,960
even, even the CIOs in

2137
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:19,800
many of these companies

2138
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:21,060
are not terribly

2139
00:33:21,060 --> 00:33:21,560
technical.

2140
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:22,660
Right.

2141
00:33:22,660 --> 00:33:23,580
and, and so that puts

2142
00:33:23,580 --> 00:33:24,980
you at a significant

2143
00:33:24,980 --> 00:33:27,300
disadvantage when, as

2144
00:33:27,300 --> 00:33:28,180
someone who's trying to

2145
00:33:28,180 --> 00:33:29,580
evaluate, uh, the

2146
00:33:29,580 --> 00:33:30,640
technology, trying to

2147
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:31,620
evaluate the technical

2148
00:33:31,620 --> 00:33:33,080
direction of your, of

2149
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:34,820
your company, of your, of

2150
00:33:34,820 --> 00:33:36,820
your whole strategy, you're,

2151
00:33:36,820 --> 00:33:38,440
you're kind of beholden, uh,

2152
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:39,500
to the, to the

2153
00:33:39,500 --> 00:33:39,980
consultants.

2154
00:33:40,340 --> 00:33:41,620
You're kind of beholden to

2155
00:33:41,620 --> 00:33:43,140
whoever has the, you

2156
00:33:43,140 --> 00:33:44,060
know, the most confident

2157
00:33:44,060 --> 00:33:45,580
sound in their voice

2158
00:33:45,580 --> 00:33:47,020
instead of being able to,

2159
00:33:47,100 --> 00:33:48,820
to reason about the, the

2160
00:33:48,820 --> 00:33:49,700
technology yourself.

2161
00:33:49,700 --> 00:33:50,800
And that puts you at a

2162
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:51,160
disadvantage.

2163
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:52,380
So one of the things I

2164
00:33:52,380 --> 00:33:54,060
just read an article, um,

2165
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:55,180
in the, it was like the

2166
00:33:55,180 --> 00:33:56,540
financial time saying that,

2167
00:33:56,540 --> 00:34:00,120
um, only 6% of the banks

2168
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,420
have, uh, technical,

2169
00:34:02,420 --> 00:34:04,940
technical people in their

2170
00:34:04,940 --> 00:34:05,880
executive team.

2171
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:07,200
All right.

2172
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:08,800
Now, just, just a footnote

2173
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:09,700
really quickly, hopefully

2174
00:34:09,700 --> 00:34:10,420
not to make you lose your

2175
00:34:10,420 --> 00:34:10,900
train of thought.

2176
00:34:10,940 --> 00:34:11,740
That's interesting because

2177
00:34:11,740 --> 00:34:14,020
I've had this conversation

2178
00:34:14,020 --> 00:34:15,120
with several people who

2179
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,100
they kind of see, they see

2180
00:34:18,100 --> 00:34:20,900
a generational shift in, in,

2181
00:34:20,900 --> 00:34:23,020
in managers who are not,

2182
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:24,880
not even cloud natives, but

2183
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:26,800
computer natives and who

2184
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,160
have much different

2185
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:29,400
expectations about what

2186
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:30,520
technology should be doing

2187
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:31,760
and is capable of, which,

2188
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:33,120
which hopefully we'll raise

2189
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,380
that 6% up, but it's, uh,

2190
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:37,240
as, as, as basically like

2191
00:34:37,240 --> 00:34:38,420
software is more in the

2192
00:34:38,420 --> 00:34:39,880
fabric of our lives to seal

2193
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:41,360
that, like that, hopefully

2194
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:42,560
that'll be help out on that

2195
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:42,860
point.

2196
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:44,120
Yeah.

2197
00:34:44,140 --> 00:34:44,980
I think there's a bunch of

2198
00:34:44,980 --> 00:34:46,080
interesting ways to frame

2199
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:47,840
that, but you know, and not,

2200
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:49,780
not to belabor the, uh, the

2201
00:34:49,780 --> 00:34:51,040
war metaphor too much, but

2202
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:52,460
if you have, if you have

2203
00:34:52,460 --> 00:34:54,460
generals and officers who,

2204
00:34:54,540 --> 00:34:56,280
who've never felt the mud,

2205
00:34:56,340 --> 00:34:57,040
who don't know what it's

2206
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:58,740
like to, to shoot a weapon

2207
00:34:58,740 --> 00:35:00,700
or, you know, be in an

2208
00:35:00,700 --> 00:35:02,480
actual war, then it's much

2209
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:04,280
the types of decisions that

2210
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:05,860
they make and the, the way

2211
00:35:05,860 --> 00:35:06,900
that they perform is very

2212
00:35:06,900 --> 00:35:07,980
different than if you have

2213
00:35:07,980 --> 00:35:09,500
some of that DNA in the

2214
00:35:09,500 --> 00:35:09,880
leadership.

2215
00:35:10,720 --> 00:35:10,780
Right.

2216
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,060
And, and so, and so like,

2217
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:16,220
have you, uh, whether

2218
00:35:16,220 --> 00:35:17,580
firsthand or secondhand, like

2219
00:35:17,580 --> 00:35:19,040
encountered way of, uh, ways

2220
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:20,000
of like building trust

2221
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:21,060
between those two groups

2222
00:35:21,060 --> 00:35:21,820
that they're actually

2223
00:35:21,820 --> 00:35:23,060
shifting things over or is

2224
00:35:23,060 --> 00:35:24,260
it just sort of like, uh,

2225
00:35:24,420 --> 00:35:25,420
largely contextual?

2226
00:35:25,820 --> 00:35:26,860
Like how, how does that

2227
00:35:26,860 --> 00:35:27,380
pan out?

2228
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:30,600
I, I have a few tricks

2229
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:32,280
that I, I, I basically

2230
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:33,420
think that a lot of this

2231
00:35:33,420 --> 00:35:35,280
just comes down to, uh,

2232
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:36,780
empathy and recognizing

2233
00:35:36,780 --> 00:35:38,580
the, the human aspect of

2234
00:35:38,580 --> 00:35:38,740
it.

2235
00:35:38,740 --> 00:35:41,060
and there's one of the

2236
00:35:41,060 --> 00:35:42,580
exercises that I made up

2237
00:35:42,580 --> 00:35:45,520
in, in, uh, is as a

2238
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:46,380
workshop, I was sort of

2239
00:35:46,380 --> 00:35:48,320
thrown into, this is way

2240
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:49,920
before Pivotal days and

2241
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:51,420
someone, someone had, had

2242
00:35:51,420 --> 00:35:53,720
basically they, they tried to

2243
00:35:53,720 --> 00:35:54,960
do an agile transformation

2244
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,980
and the developers were, were

2245
00:35:58,980 --> 00:35:59,880
loving it.

2246
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:01,360
And then there was kind of

2247
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:02,880
like total organ rejection,

2248
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:04,660
uh, from the ops team.

2249
00:36:05,660 --> 00:36:07,360
And, and then someone said,

2250
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,180
well, let's throw Andrew

2251
00:36:09,180 --> 00:36:10,280
into that and like, see

2252
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:10,860
what he could do.

2253
00:36:10,940 --> 00:36:13,120
And so on short notice with

2254
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:14,360
like very little preparation,

2255
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,040
I was, I was put on a plane

2256
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:18,780
and like flown to, to try to

2257
00:36:18,780 --> 00:36:21,560
help basically do kind of

2258
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:23,880
therapy, uh, for, for these

2259
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:24,260
teams.

2260
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,560
And on the, on the spot after

2261
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:28,660
I got in there and like, I

2262
00:36:28,660 --> 00:36:29,960
saw what was going on and

2263
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:31,340
talked to them and we're all

2264
00:36:31,340 --> 00:36:32,420
spending two days together.

2265
00:36:32,940 --> 00:36:35,460
Um, I, I made up this, uh,

2266
00:36:35,660 --> 00:36:37,780
exercise where I, I made them

2267
00:36:37,780 --> 00:36:38,700
interview each other.

2268
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,620
And then what, what they do

2269
00:36:42,620 --> 00:36:45,460
is each, I tried to pair them

2270
00:36:45,460 --> 00:36:47,500
up with whoever they thought

2271
00:36:47,500 --> 00:36:48,880
was the farthest away from

2272
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:50,180
themselves in the organization.

2273
00:36:51,260 --> 00:36:52,820
And we spent, we spent an

2274
00:36:52,820 --> 00:36:54,580
hour with those two having

2275
00:36:54,580 --> 00:36:56,860
conversation and then each one

2276
00:36:56,860 --> 00:36:59,140
of them had to write a press

2277
00:36:59,140 --> 00:36:59,600
release.

2278
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:01,220
So they're all, they're all

2279
00:37:01,220 --> 00:37:02,840
technical managers or, or,

2280
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:04,600
you know, technologists, um,

2281
00:37:04,700 --> 00:37:05,760
at various levels of

2282
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,940
infrastructure and applications

2283
00:37:07,940 --> 00:37:10,160
and they, they had to write a

2284
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:11,900
press release for how that

2285
00:37:11,900 --> 00:37:13,060
other person that they just

2286
00:37:13,060 --> 00:37:14,840
spent time with adds value to

2287
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:15,360
the company.

2288
00:37:16,100 --> 00:37:18,160
And I got, I got feedback from

2289
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:19,860
basically everyone that that was

2290
00:37:19,860 --> 00:37:21,420
like the most amazing thing for

2291
00:37:21,420 --> 00:37:21,740
them.

2292
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:23,840
Cause, cause for the, for the

2293
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:25,560
most part, those were all like

2294
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:27,360
nameless, faceless functions.

2295
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:28,160
Like they knew the person

2296
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:29,680
existed, but they didn't really

2297
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:31,380
understand what they did every

2298
00:37:31,380 --> 00:37:31,740
day.

2299
00:37:31,740 --> 00:37:32,700
They didn't understand why

2300
00:37:32,700 --> 00:37:33,340
they did it.

2301
00:37:33,340 --> 00:37:36,060
And so to me, like trust is

2302
00:37:36,060 --> 00:37:37,340
about patterns of behavior.

2303
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,200
And if you're, if you're tribal

2304
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,000
notions don't extend to this

2305
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,480
other person's perspective, their

2306
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,420
viewpoint, you know, obviously

2307
00:37:47,420 --> 00:37:49,700
if you're, if you're in

2308
00:37:49,700 --> 00:37:50,960
someone's cube and you see the

2309
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:52,760
picture of their kids on the, on

2310
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:54,100
the wall, like that's a person.

2311
00:37:54,260 --> 00:37:55,620
But if it's just someone you

2312
00:37:55,620 --> 00:37:56,880
interact with through tickets and

2313
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:58,580
they're annoying because they're

2314
00:37:58,580 --> 00:37:59,700
not doing the thing you want

2315
00:37:59,700 --> 00:38:01,820
immediately, uh, even though

2316
00:38:01,820 --> 00:38:03,460
they're practically on fire

2317
00:38:03,460 --> 00:38:05,300
themselves, uh, then you don't,

2318
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:06,400
you don't have that same kind of

2319
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:06,760
empathy.

2320
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:09,520
And, and that empathy to me is

2321
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,600
like the basis for a bunch of

2322
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:13,080
these things getting solved with

2323
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,520
respect to trust and, you know,

2324
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:16,060
understanding.

2325
00:38:16,220 --> 00:38:18,620
And it's the same thing where as,

2326
00:38:18,740 --> 00:38:21,040
as a, as a technologist who

2327
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:22,560
struggled with technology, who

2328
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:23,740
struggled with delivery, who

2329
00:38:23,740 --> 00:38:24,740
struggled with innovation.

2330
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:26,760
If you're, if you're leading a

2331
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:28,880
team that is going to go through

2332
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:30,920
that whole cycle together, then,

2333
00:38:31,060 --> 00:38:32,200
then that's a very different

2334
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:33,600
approach than if you're just

2335
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:35,320
like, oh, I need to have these

2336
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,480
features by this date so I can

2337
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,020
make this other thing happen.

2338
00:38:39,020 --> 00:38:39,340
Right.

2339
00:38:39,380 --> 00:38:41,040
And, and like you'd like, you'd

2340
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:42,880
like those things to line up, but

2341
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:44,900
it's, it doesn't actually get you

2342
00:38:44,900 --> 00:38:46,560
better software to just kind of

2343
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:47,740
crack the whip all the time.

2344
00:38:48,140 --> 00:38:48,280
Yeah.

2345
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:49,680
No, and, and I, and I think, I

2346
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:51,180
think this, this falls in the

2347
00:38:51,180 --> 00:38:53,360
category of, uh, I remember that,

2348
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:54,680
that conversation you had with

2349
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,280
Matt Curry a while back, like

2350
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:57,200
there was, there was a delightful

2351
00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:58,480
part I always referenced where

2352
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:00,400
no one seems to believe the

2353
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:01,540
advice coming out of these

2354
00:39:01,540 --> 00:39:02,980
unicorn companies that they

2355
00:39:02,980 --> 00:39:04,380
actually have like two pizza

2356
00:39:04,380 --> 00:39:06,080
teams and, you know, so forth

2357
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:06,580
and so on.

2358
00:39:06,580 --> 00:39:07,800
Like, they're always like, what

2359
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:08,640
are you really doing?

2360
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:09,760
Cause that sounds like a bunch

2361
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:11,600
of hokum and, and, and it

2362
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:13,600
is like, we have this layer in

2363
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:15,260
our, in our stack of

2364
00:39:15,260 --> 00:39:16,440
understanding what, what the

2365
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:17,860
stack is called the, uh, the

2366
00:39:17,860 --> 00:39:19,640
cloud, you know, the empowered

2367
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:21,860
culture basically, um, which,

2368
00:39:21,980 --> 00:39:22,960
which enables all of that.

2369
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:24,140
And as you were saying, like

2370
00:39:24,140 --> 00:39:25,520
the basis of it, and, and

2371
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:27,460
I've seen this over my career

2372
00:39:27,460 --> 00:39:28,960
and definitely recently is

2373
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,500
once you start getting people

2374
00:39:31,500 --> 00:39:33,180
trusting each other, which,

2375
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:34,740
which sounds like one of those

2376
00:39:34,740 --> 00:39:35,900
hokum things, right?

2377
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:37,200
Like surely that's not how you

2378
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:38,620
make things operate in an adult

2379
00:39:38,620 --> 00:39:40,300
world, but once you actually get

2380
00:39:40,300 --> 00:39:41,340
people trusting each other,

2381
00:39:41,340 --> 00:39:42,580
then everything else is

2382
00:39:42,580 --> 00:39:43,960
possible and more falls into

2383
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:44,380
place.

2384
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,340
So it does seem like you have

2385
00:39:47,340 --> 00:39:47,900
to get over it.

2386
00:39:47,900 --> 00:39:48,760
You have to take a leap of

2387
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:49,740
faith, if you will, that this

2388
00:39:49,740 --> 00:39:50,700
is something you need to work

2389
00:39:50,700 --> 00:39:52,260
on, but then whatever time

2390
00:39:52,260 --> 00:39:53,260
you spend actually getting

2391
00:39:53,260 --> 00:39:54,800
people to treat each other as

2392
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,220
people and just be normal and

2393
00:39:58,220 --> 00:39:59,960
humane, like, uh, tends to

2394
00:39:59,960 --> 00:40:01,620
pay off when, when it comes to

2395
00:40:01,620 --> 00:40:04,080
actually, uh, you know, whether

2396
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:05,520
the management people and you

2397
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:07,020
want your staff to like execute

2398
00:40:07,020 --> 00:40:08,820
along these like new, like

2399
00:40:08,820 --> 00:40:10,200
ideas of exploring and being

2400
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:11,760
creative or in the other

2401
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:12,560
direction, right?

2402
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,200
Like if, if you're coming from

2403
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:15,800
the bottom, so to speak, and,

2404
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:16,840
and you want management to

2405
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:18,700
understand a more agile sort of

2406
00:40:18,700 --> 00:40:20,980
learning based approach to

2407
00:40:20,980 --> 00:40:22,060
doing things, you have to get

2408
00:40:22,060 --> 00:40:23,260
management to trust you as

2409
00:40:23,260 --> 00:40:23,500
well.

2410
00:40:23,500 --> 00:40:24,840
So it starts to make sense to

2411
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:26,420
actually just start to know the

2412
00:40:26,420 --> 00:40:27,700
people so that they, they

2413
00:40:27,700 --> 00:40:28,540
believe what you're saying and

2414
00:40:28,540 --> 00:40:29,220
build up empathy.

2415
00:40:29,500 --> 00:40:29,900
Yeah.

2416
00:40:29,900 --> 00:40:31,060
The trust has to go in both

2417
00:40:31,060 --> 00:40:31,940
directions for sure.

2418
00:40:31,940 --> 00:40:33,960
And I think that, well, my

2419
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,520
experience seems to indicate

2420
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:37,460
that you got, you kind of get

2421
00:40:37,460 --> 00:40:39,440
these self-reinforcing upward

2422
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:40,520
or downward spirals.

2423
00:40:41,140 --> 00:40:42,440
And as you start to have

2424
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:43,880
results and as you start to

2425
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,260
trust and, you know, become a

2426
00:40:46,260 --> 00:40:48,320
high-performing team, uh, you

2427
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:49,880
never want to go back, right?

2428
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:51,000
Like that just becomes the

2429
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:52,160
thing you want to keep getting

2430
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,400
better and better at, uh, where

2431
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,280
if you're in that, you know,

2432
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:58,620
cost center mindset, the, the

2433
00:40:58,620 --> 00:41:00,400
scarcity mindset, then that

2434
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:02,120
downward spiral, like actually

2435
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:03,340
drives you deeper and deeper

2436
00:41:03,340 --> 00:41:04,920
into this function.

2437
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:06,440
Indeed.

2438
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:07,460
Well, I think that's a good

2439
00:41:07,460 --> 00:41:08,520
top place to wrap up.

2440
00:41:09,140 --> 00:41:10,660
We've, uh, we've covered a

2441
00:41:10,660 --> 00:41:12,020
lot of, uh, in, in, in an

2442
00:41:12,020 --> 00:41:13,540
exciting scattered kind of way,

2443
00:41:13,540 --> 00:41:14,740
a lot of interesting new

2444
00:41:14,740 --> 00:41:15,620
developments around here.

2445
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:16,360
Do you have anything else you

2446
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:17,960
want to say before we, uh, end

2447
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:18,140
it?

2448
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:20,180
Well, the, the one thing that

2449
00:41:20,180 --> 00:41:23,000
we, we had, uh, aspired to,

2450
00:41:23,100 --> 00:41:24,520
to talk about that I think,

2451
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:26,340
um, maybe we don't, we don't

2452
00:41:26,340 --> 00:41:27,760
explore this fully today, but

2453
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:29,560
we come back and might even be

2454
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:30,740
funded to do this with a

2455
00:41:30,740 --> 00:41:32,100
couple different personalities

2456
00:41:32,100 --> 00:41:33,880
at the same time is this,

2457
00:41:34,020 --> 00:41:35,380
this transition, this

2458
00:41:35,380 --> 00:41:36,940
separation that we're seeing.

2459
00:41:37,020 --> 00:41:38,180
We, we, we kind of started

2460
00:41:38,180 --> 00:41:40,880
hinting about it when, when

2461
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:41,440
we're talking about this

2462
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:42,600
proliferation of solutions.

2463
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:44,800
But what I'm seeing is a, is

2464
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:46,720
a trend towards much more,

2465
00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:48,960
uh, application centric

2466
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,040
approaches, uh, application

2467
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:53,760
centric user experience, uh,

2468
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:55,300
with the platform, uh, that

2469
00:41:55,300 --> 00:41:57,820
we're focused on versus the,

2470
00:41:58,500 --> 00:41:59,680
what, what it looks like, you

2471
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:00,680
know, very infrastructure

2472
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:02,960
centric approaches, uh, that,

2473
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:05,700
the other, other, uh, projects

2474
00:42:05,700 --> 00:42:06,420
seem to be taken.

2475
00:42:06,820 --> 00:42:08,340
Yeah, no, and that, that's,

2476
00:42:08,340 --> 00:42:09,740
that's, uh, that would be a

2477
00:42:09,740 --> 00:42:11,400
good panel conversation to have

2478
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:13,500
maybe, but, uh, I, I think,

2479
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:14,360
I think definitely like

2480
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:15,740
that's, that's what I end up

2481
00:42:15,740 --> 00:42:18,260
seeing is, uh, most of the

2482
00:42:18,260 --> 00:42:19,440
conversations I get, I get

2483
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:21,240
into nowadays, thankfully are

2484
00:42:21,240 --> 00:42:23,000
about how do I architect these

2485
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:24,320
things out and how, how,

2486
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:26,280
what's the implication of, of

2487
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:27,860
using a microservices based

2488
00:42:27,860 --> 00:42:30,500
way for, for the way I

2489
00:42:30,500 --> 00:42:32,120
evolve my services, essentially

2490
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:33,240
the way I evolve my

2491
00:42:33,240 --> 00:42:35,680
application and, and, and, and

2492
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:36,840
the bridge I always try to go

2493
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:37,880
back to, especially with the,

2494
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:39,120
the large organizations I

2495
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:40,560
talked to is, is, uh,

2496
00:42:41,180 --> 00:42:42,720
I'll remember all that SOA

2497
00:42:42,720 --> 00:42:43,160
stuff.

2498
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:44,140
There were a lot of

2499
00:42:44,140 --> 00:42:45,400
interesting, good ideas in

2500
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:47,340
there and, and trying to

2501
00:42:47,340 --> 00:42:48,940
sort out how, how we can

2502
00:42:48,940 --> 00:42:50,180
actually make it work well.

2503
00:42:50,180 --> 00:42:52,080
And I've actually, I've

2504
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:53,320
actually been in a lot of

2505
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:54,700
weird conversations recently

2506
00:42:54,700 --> 00:42:56,360
trying to diagnose what went

2507
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:57,460
wrong with SOA.

2508
00:42:57,620 --> 00:42:59,220
What went wrong with SOA?

2509
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:00,960
And I, and I think, I think

2510
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:02,440
a lot of it has, my theory

2511
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:07,580
so far is that it was the

2512
00:43:07,580 --> 00:43:09,500
original goals were pretty

2513
00:43:09,500 --> 00:43:10,720
much the goals that we have

2514
00:43:10,720 --> 00:43:11,960
in the, the application

2515
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:12,600
and architecture

2516
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:14,040
conversations nowadays,

2517
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:14,440
right?

2518
00:43:14,460 --> 00:43:17,000
Let's, let's make a bunch

2519
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,800
of services that represent

2520
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:21,520
various types of processes

2521
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:22,560
in our business, right?

2522
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:24,380
So like in, in the retail

2523
00:43:24,380 --> 00:43:25,340
world, you have like

2524
00:43:25,340 --> 00:43:27,040
inventory, you need to send

2525
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:28,340
inventory out to various

2526
00:43:28,340 --> 00:43:29,520
distribution centers that

2527
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:30,340
show up in stores.

2528
00:43:30,340 --> 00:43:31,740
And then you need to do an

2529
00:43:31,740 --> 00:43:32,580
accounting of who bought

2530
00:43:32,580 --> 00:43:33,420
what, and you know, all

2531
00:43:33,420 --> 00:43:35,200
this stuff breaks apart into

2532
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:36,260
a bunch of little services

2533
00:43:36,260 --> 00:43:37,240
and types of data.

2534
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,380
So we want a common way

2535
00:43:40,380 --> 00:43:41,220
of representing those

2536
00:43:41,220 --> 00:43:42,360
services so that we can

2537
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:43,780
very rapidly write

2538
00:43:43,780 --> 00:43:44,820
applications that do

2539
00:43:44,820 --> 00:43:45,480
something with it.

2540
00:43:45,540 --> 00:43:48,420
Like if I want to, if I

2541
00:43:48,420 --> 00:43:49,960
want to compete out in the

2542
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:51,960
crazy unicorn world and

2543
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:53,100
have an app that allows

2544
00:43:53,100 --> 00:43:54,360
someone to buy something

2545
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,080
in my store and someone's

2546
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:57,140
going to go into the store

2547
00:43:57,140 --> 00:43:58,160
and pull that item from

2548
00:43:58,160 --> 00:43:59,900
the shelves and deliver

2549
00:43:59,900 --> 00:44:00,860
it, like there's a bunch

2550
00:44:00,860 --> 00:44:01,680
of software you need to

2551
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:02,380
write to make that

2552
00:44:02,380 --> 00:44:03,340
operate effectively.

2553
00:44:04,140 --> 00:44:05,020
I don't know, rather

2554
00:44:05,020 --> 00:44:05,940
than faxing things

2555
00:44:05,940 --> 00:44:06,720
around or something.

2556
00:44:07,300 --> 00:44:08,080
I mean, I think, I think

2557
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:08,700
what I'm talking about

2558
00:44:08,700 --> 00:44:09,840
here is slightly different

2559
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:11,260
framing, which is that

2560
00:44:11,260 --> 00:44:13,080
everyone's sort of talking

2561
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:13,940
about this new paradigm.

2562
00:44:14,100 --> 00:44:14,620
Everyone's talking about

2563
00:44:14,620 --> 00:44:15,620
these new architectures,

2564
00:44:15,860 --> 00:44:16,940
but the way that you

2565
00:44:16,940 --> 00:44:18,680
interact with them, are

2566
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:19,980
you coming from the

2567
00:44:19,980 --> 00:44:22,040
bottom and building them

2568
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:23,380
up from the primitives

2569
00:44:23,380 --> 00:44:25,720
of the infrastructure or

2570
00:44:25,720 --> 00:44:27,840
are you abstracting them

2571
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:29,960
from the top and saying,

2572
00:44:30,100 --> 00:44:31,260
okay, like these things

2573
00:44:31,260 --> 00:44:32,640
should exist declaratively

2574
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:35,320
and then letting the

2575
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:36,900
automation, the

2576
00:44:36,900 --> 00:44:38,400
application, which is

2577
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:40,080
the automation, make

2578
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:40,900
those things happen.

2579
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,320
And like who, which

2580
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:45,760
persona, if you will, is

2581
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:47,000
that experience optimized

2582
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:47,460
for?

2583
00:44:47,980 --> 00:44:48,940
Right, right, right,

2584
00:44:48,940 --> 00:44:49,180
right.

2585
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:50,740
Yeah, that makes sense.

2586
00:44:51,740 --> 00:44:51,920
Yeah.

2587
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:53,700
Anyway, that could be a

2588
00:44:53,700 --> 00:44:54,320
whole hour.

2589
00:44:54,720 --> 00:44:55,420
That's right.

2590
00:44:55,780 --> 00:44:56,220
Easily.

2591
00:44:56,700 --> 00:44:57,180
Yes.

2592
00:44:57,340 --> 00:44:58,240
What went wrong with

2593
00:44:58,240 --> 00:44:58,800
SOA?

2594
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:00,620
I know, I mean, my

2595
00:45:00,620 --> 00:45:02,080
where's the body buried?

2596
00:45:02,780 --> 00:45:04,120
It's actually that it

2597
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,120
was, it aspired to be a

2598
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:08,480
service thing, but then it

2599
00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:09,480
was implemented as a

2600
00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:09,880
monolith.

2601
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:11,280
Right, right.

2602
00:45:11,380 --> 00:45:12,620
No, and that's the

2603
00:45:12,620 --> 00:45:13,600
avenue I was getting to,

2604
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:14,520
like laying out that

2605
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:15,880
lengthy example there is

2606
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:17,300
like, so you want, you

2607
00:45:17,300 --> 00:45:18,080
want to write this new

2608
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:19,140
application that needs to

2609
00:45:19,140 --> 00:45:19,980
use all these services

2610
00:45:19,980 --> 00:45:21,040
and you end up spending

2611
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:22,420
all your time specifying

2612
00:45:22,420 --> 00:45:23,380
what your data looks

2613
00:45:23,380 --> 00:45:23,660
like.

2614
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:25,360
Like you spend all this

2615
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:26,340
time about the

2616
00:45:26,340 --> 00:45:27,080
interchange and

2617
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:28,740
interoperability and

2618
00:45:28,740 --> 00:45:30,400
very little on like the

2619
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:31,560
original goals, if you

2620
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:31,760
will.

2621
00:45:31,900 --> 00:45:32,700
And so that, that seems

2622
00:45:32,700 --> 00:45:33,960
like the distraction that

2623
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:35,240
happened is it ended up

2624
00:45:35,240 --> 00:45:36,020
focusing on the wrong

2625
00:45:36,020 --> 00:45:37,740
thing versus something

2626
00:45:37,740 --> 00:45:39,200
closer or something that

2627
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:40,080
feels more like what you

2628
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:41,540
were saying is like, well,

2629
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:42,460
eventually all these

2630
00:45:42,460 --> 00:45:43,280
services need to

2631
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:44,180
coalesce and run.

2632
00:45:44,340 --> 00:45:45,260
They have to do

2633
00:45:45,260 --> 00:45:46,620
something, not just

2634
00:45:46,620 --> 00:45:47,920
perfectly exchange data.

2635
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:49,300
I think basically what

2636
00:45:49,300 --> 00:45:50,460
you're saying is it

2637
00:45:50,460 --> 00:45:51,200
started out with this

2638
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,980
great idea and then as,

2639
00:45:54,100 --> 00:45:55,980
as always, it was

2640
00:45:55,980 --> 00:45:57,080
re-implementing

2641
00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:58,220
Corba basically.

2642
00:45:59,400 --> 00:45:59,840
Exactly.

2643
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:00,900
That's what happened.

2644
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:01,680
That's right.

2645
00:46:01,820 --> 00:46:02,540
We didn't like our

2646
00:46:02,540 --> 00:46:03,420
IDL files.

2647
00:46:03,500 --> 00:46:04,040
So now we have

2648
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:04,800
SOAP files.

2649
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:06,480
Perfect transition.

2650
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:07,840
Well, on that

2651
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:09,260
delightful XSD note,

2652
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:10,680
no conversation is

2653
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:11,380
complete without a

2654
00:46:11,380 --> 00:46:12,460
reference to XML, I

2655
00:46:12,460 --> 00:46:12,700
guess.

2656
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:14,500
This has been

2657
00:46:14,500 --> 00:46:15,580
Pivotal Conversations.

2658
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:16,780
You can always find the

2659
00:46:16,780 --> 00:46:17,540
show notes and what we

2660
00:46:17,540 --> 00:46:18,660
have at pivotal.io

2661
00:46:18,660 --> 00:46:20,220
slash podcast or

2662
00:46:20,220 --> 00:46:21,980
podcasts and we'll see

2663
00:46:21,980 --> 00:46:22,840
everyone next time.

2664
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:23,680
Bye-bye.

2665
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:24,900
Until next time.