1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,420 Well, hey, James. How's it going? 2 00:00:02,620 --> 00:00:06,040 Hey, Mr. Coté. It's a pretty excellent morning here in New York City. 3 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:14,500 I heard that you had an experience of using a regular cab. How did that go? I mean, Uber is 4 00:00:14,500 --> 00:00:21,620 a trope, if you will, of representing our company. So almost metaphorically, you got to go experience 5 00:00:21,620 --> 00:00:27,220 what the old school way of doing stuff. I think it's a good analogy. How did it pan out? 6 00:00:27,220 --> 00:00:35,920 How's the technology in there? I hit a wall last night. I take great pride that I travel a lot, 7 00:00:36,060 --> 00:00:41,220 but I never complained about traveling on Twitter because it's sort of like this default that my 8 00:00:41,220 --> 00:00:47,860 whole Twitter stream is full of extremely well-paid people complaining about small travel inconveniences. 9 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:53,500 I can't believe an important person like me is forced to wait for peanuts. You know what I mean? 10 00:00:53,500 --> 00:00:58,360 Like these kind of tweets. Dear God, this scotch is only 18 years old. I don't know how I'll cope. 11 00:00:58,900 --> 00:01:05,140 Exactly. So I'm like, I've always tried really hard. I'm like, that is like the death of interesting 12 00:01:05,140 --> 00:01:14,600 information to share. But after a long delay, I got into JFK at 3am and I am addicted to Uber. I fully 13 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:21,660 admitted I Uber everywhere. I really never used my car. I am a San Francisco person. And I tried to 14 00:01:21,660 --> 00:01:26,040 connect to restarted my phone. I tried to connect. I think their authentication service was just down 15 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:32,260 and it was down for about 20 minutes last night in New York. And so I crawled into the back of one of 16 00:01:32,260 --> 00:01:38,520 these yellow things. And as you described, it's sort of like a hamster cage with a plastic wall. 17 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:44,260 Exactly. But there's no tubes. It's just the square cage, the starter set. 18 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:49,480 Yeah. Yeah. And it was funny because, you know, my whole quest is like, hey, telling the world about 19 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:53,820 reliable next generation cloud software. And when we say software is eating the world, Uber is out to 20 00:01:53,820 --> 00:01:58,100 get you. And last night, Uber had some issues scaling their software. So no one's perfect. 21 00:01:59,860 --> 00:02:04,960 But I've actually heard that they're refreshing their tech team there. And it's often the case, 22 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:09,160 sometimes you get one hit app and you're not amazing at scaling it forever. You know, remember 23 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:13,560 when Uber came out? I mean, sorry, when Twitter came out, they had a killer app, but not a killer 24 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:14,860 tech back end yet. 25 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:17,360 Yes, those were fun times. 26 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:18,640 The whale. 27 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:19,980 That's right. That's right. 28 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:26,460 Yeah. You know, I spend a lot of time when I'm traipsing about with the various, I don't know, 29 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:32,460 one would call them enterprise teams and groups that I talk with. And I have this conflicting 30 00:02:32,460 --> 00:02:37,900 notion in my head that there's something valuable in the idea of fail fast, but I don't think you 31 00:02:37,900 --> 00:02:44,600 necessarily get permission to do that for years on end. Like there's a lot of tolerance that you're 32 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:49,280 given at first to learn how to do things. And then there's an expectation of just executing 33 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:55,420 seamlessly. But yeah, that's a very paradoxical notion. That's almost like it almost has a Zen 34 00:02:55,420 --> 00:03:01,420 quality of how you react to it ongoing as more of a Rorschach test about what you should be doing. 35 00:03:01,580 --> 00:03:06,080 If the idea of failure equals learning, if that resonates with you or sounds scary, 36 00:03:06,740 --> 00:03:09,300 but it's good calisthenics to put your mind through. 37 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:14,180 Yeah. I would say in the cloud, you want to fail fast and then heal exceptionally fast. 38 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,120 That's right. Fail faster and fix faster than that. 39 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:21,400 Like if I had, you know, you know, after having restarted my phone and tried to connect for the 40 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:25,580 third time gotten through, I think, I think I totally forgive the situation. Right. I'm like, 41 00:03:25,620 --> 00:03:28,120 oh, they had a momentary blip. Things self healed. 42 00:03:28,580 --> 00:03:33,560 Exactly. That's yeah. We, we always, I always try to say instead of, uh, uptime, I try to focus on 43 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,860 resilience. You want to have that, uh, you want to be able to bounce back quickly. 44 00:03:37,500 --> 00:03:41,760 That's right. So we were getting together today. We, we have a, uh, we have a new release of 45 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:48,280 Pivotal Cloud Foundry or as we might slip into, uh, PCF, uh, coming out version 1.6. And, um, 46 00:03:48,580 --> 00:03:52,860 you know, we have, we have a flurry of details out there, uh, about what's in it. And there's, 47 00:03:52,860 --> 00:03:56,560 there's a, there's a bevy of features. I was just watching an internal webinar we have 48 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:02,180 and, uh, it's chock full, but what I want to talk to you about is, you know, I've been here since, 49 00:04:02,180 --> 00:04:08,200 uh, January of this year and, and we recorded a podcast back in, in May, I think, or when we had 50 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:17,060 1.4 out. That's right. And I feel like in, in so much has evolved since then and, and a huge part 51 00:04:17,060 --> 00:04:24,380 of, of what's evolved is, is what P well, I feel like what, what people, what our customers are looking 52 00:04:24,380 --> 00:04:30,340 for, right? Like, like, uh, now, you know, I, I don't go out as much as you do and get trapped in 53 00:04:30,340 --> 00:04:35,260 a hamster cages as it were. But like when, when, when I go out and talk with people, even over that 54 00:04:35,260 --> 00:04:41,700 short amount of time, the problems that they're looking to solve have very rapidly moved up the 55 00:04:41,700 --> 00:04:47,900 stack. And, and what I mean by that is back when I was at a four or five one and, and even doing, 56 00:04:47,900 --> 00:04:53,740 uh, M and a stuff, uh, at Dell, when I was there before that much of the focus on cloud was basically 57 00:04:53,740 --> 00:05:00,320 on like, just getting your infrastructure up and running and almost the, uh, almost the cool 58 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:04,460 of that and getting all your stuff doing going. And, and you still hear a lot of conversation 59 00:05:04,460 --> 00:05:09,220 about that, like, uh, you know, container scheduling and orchestration and sorting out what that is. 60 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:14,080 And to a limited extent, like people that I talk with nowadays at large organizations still go over 61 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,720 that, but like very rapidly, once you, they're kind of assured that you have the infrastructure, 62 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:21,320 they're actually more interested in just like, I don't know what you might call good old 63 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:30,900 fashion application development. That's right. Exactly. I find my, that's, that's it. That's a 64 00:05:30,900 --> 00:05:37,320 good, that's a good poll. Cause I find myself saying ALM, like you remember ALM or, and, and, and then the 65 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:42,060 second level of seeing if they remember app dev stuff is like, do you know what SDLC is? You remember 66 00:05:42,060 --> 00:05:49,520 that? And anyways, so again, like even, even when I, uh, uh, joined Pivotal back then, that conversation was 67 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:56,060 still very, very op centric and infrastructure centric and looking, looking over all the, what I would call 68 00:05:56,060 --> 00:06:01,720 the major features that we have in, uh, Pivotal Cloud Foundry 1.6. It's interesting that things like, 69 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:07,740 uh, spring boot and spring cloud, uh, you know, depending on what product manager and things like 70 00:06:07,740 --> 00:06:13,380 that, they arguably kind of dominate the interestingness of, of, of what's in there because 71 00:06:13,380 --> 00:06:19,260 they're enabling doing, doing cloud native application development. So that that's, that's my, uh, 72 00:06:19,260 --> 00:06:23,280 my monologue to a question. And, and, and, you know, I, I think, I think what you're in an 73 00:06:23,280 --> 00:06:27,260 interesting position being basically the, the GM of all of this, the general manager of all this to 74 00:06:27,260 --> 00:06:32,320 go over is like, I wanted you to kind of walk us through the story of how we got in the short amount 75 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:38,880 of time from basically the ops layer of stuff all the way up to basically things like boot and cloud 76 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:43,900 being what I think is one of the main centerpieces of, of what we're doing with Pivotal Cloud Foundry. 77 00:06:45,660 --> 00:06:54,460 Yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's, uh, it's been a really fun transition. Um, and the thing I'd say is, is that 78 00:06:54,460 --> 00:07:02,000 I think we got smarter and customers are getting smarter and the market is slowly getting smarter 79 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:08,680 that the automation problem they were trying to solve, it's best to trace it back to its root cause. 80 00:07:09,220 --> 00:07:15,180 You know, so I think what's, what's happened and I'm working on a personal blog about this, 81 00:07:15,380 --> 00:07:19,520 you know, help me. I'm, I'm not the writer that you are, Michael, but, uh, I, I challenged myself 82 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:24,320 to share my own thoughts sort of independent of, you know, the company I work for and the products 83 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:30,440 I work on, but like what's really going on out in the market. And at a, at a really high meta layer, 84 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:36,220 when I think about it, at least it's sort of like SAS software came along and tried effectively 85 00:07:36,220 --> 00:07:42,940 to take away a lot of the very undifferentiated software and have other people operated for you. 86 00:07:42,940 --> 00:07:48,740 Right. So you can go to work day. Now you can go to Salesforce. Um, you can use all kinds of SAS apps 87 00:07:48,740 --> 00:07:54,080 concur and you can run a lot of your business. I mean, you, you're at Pivotal now. Like we, 88 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:58,540 we don't do a lot of like app hosting internally, right? Like, can you think of an app that we use 89 00:07:58,540 --> 00:08:03,980 that's run by it? No, no. I mean, I mean, we're, uh, as a testament to that, I'm very familiar with 90 00:08:03,980 --> 00:08:13,200 the Okta supposed single sign on screen. The Okta, please do Google authenticator again, please, sir. 91 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:21,480 Yep. But I, you know, that's, that's, that's just symptomatic of the point is that, um, we do have 92 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:25,600 some on-premise stuff. That's our own software of, you know, things that we do on our own, but I'm 93 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:31,720 pretty sure most all of our backend is, uh, all SAS, SASified. That's right. So we, you know, 94 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,500 we were like, when we started Pivotal, we're like, Hey, let's, let's pretend like we're starting 95 00:08:35,500 --> 00:08:41,020 not pretend let's, let's do a blank slate. We're starting a new company here happened to be a spin 96 00:08:41,020 --> 00:08:46,760 out of some big existing companies, but we really went greenfield with it. And so what, what you end 97 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:53,020 up seeing is you see that a lot of what it used to do is just like sort of, you know, I joke when I 98 00:08:53,020 --> 00:09:01,080 started at Sun Microsystems back in the dark ages in 2001. Um, that my first day at work, 99 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:05,980 I talk about this is SpringOne, my first day at work, I was all excited. I've been into Java 100 00:09:05,980 --> 00:09:10,460 development and really cared about that. And I thought all this is going to change the world. 101 00:09:10,460 --> 00:09:17,400 And I got, got a job at the big dog sun. I was so happy. And, uh, I was doing this rotation where 102 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:21,560 they show you different things that happens at sun. It was cool. I was like, okay, first day, 103 00:09:21,560 --> 00:09:27,640 what are we going to go do this week? They're like, well, we're going to do with this customer, 104 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:34,060 the server sizing assessment. I said, what? I said, well, we're going to spend the next six 105 00:09:34,060 --> 00:09:37,740 weeks assessing how big of a server they should buy for this app they're writing. 106 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:45,420 And there's this very like crawling, plotting 18 month pace to everything that was happening back 107 00:09:45,420 --> 00:09:51,040 then. Um, because a lot of it exists in a world where they'd spend 12 months or 18 months standing 108 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:57,080 up people soft or standing up Oracle, you know, e-business or any of these big, you know, suites 109 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:02,620 that are now often bought as SAS. And so a lot of it was really about like, how do you automate or how do 110 00:10:02,620 --> 00:10:07,540 you control all of these, you know, off the shelf pieces of software that come your way? Right. 111 00:10:07,780 --> 00:10:07,960 Right. 112 00:10:08,700 --> 00:10:13,280 And I think when I think back to root causes, like, that's what kind of got, that's the transition 113 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:19,140 run right now is that the blog I want to write is called life after SAS, which is like it's job 114 00:10:19,140 --> 00:10:24,460 now is more and more and more going to be to run the differentiating software that that company wrote. 115 00:10:24,700 --> 00:10:31,660 Like if it continues to exist, it's facilitating security for SAS and access, and then helping 116 00:10:31,660 --> 00:10:36,740 run the software that the company wrote. And then the question is, is that now that you have 117 00:10:36,740 --> 00:10:42,560 an opportunity to, to focus on that and really focus on it, and we've learned everything we've 118 00:10:42,560 --> 00:10:48,880 learned since the early 2000s, are there patterns of software development that enable, you know, 119 00:10:48,980 --> 00:10:53,780 hyper-efficient, you know, continuous delivery and scale? And I think the answer is yes. Right. 120 00:10:53,780 --> 00:10:58,260 And I think that's why we've really started to focus on, okay, now your job is to run custom 121 00:10:58,260 --> 00:11:01,380 software. How do you do that? And how do you think about that holistically? 122 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:07,900 Exactly. I mean, I mean, I, I think that's the, uh, that that's, yeah, I, I, I reduce this down 123 00:11:07,900 --> 00:11:12,600 to an equation that, that, you know, it's not a real equation, but, but I, I, I write it up as 124 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:19,140 IT minus SAS equals what? And you just basically define the what, right? That once, once you remove 125 00:11:19,140 --> 00:11:25,680 SAS from the big world of IT, what's left to do and what's left to do is our, you know, arguably 126 00:11:25,680 --> 00:11:29,840 you got to set up the network and maybe there's some desktop management, but that ruins my story. 127 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:35,780 So I ignore that part, but, but essentially it brings up, well, there's writing your own 128 00:11:35,780 --> 00:11:40,800 software. And, and I think, I think that is, uh, you know, we, we at Pivotal have always been on 129 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:45,260 about, uh, you should be really good at writing software, right? Cause that's what we sell. And 130 00:11:45,260 --> 00:11:50,720 that's what people want to use us for is the ability to do your custom software. But with the 131 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:56,140 framing that, that you are walking us into, it becomes clear that that is what IT is basically 132 00:11:56,140 --> 00:12:02,740 important for now, other than just like outsourcing your stuff to SAS. And I think, uh, yeah, I mean 133 00:12:02,740 --> 00:12:07,160 that, that kind of framing tends to, uh, resonate pretty well with people. And then the thing that 134 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:13,140 I find, I mean, tell, tell me if you, uh, you find this as well, but once you walk someone through to 135 00:12:13,140 --> 00:12:19,860 that, you almost have to have them unlearn their IT behavior and practices of the past. And the way 136 00:12:19,860 --> 00:12:26,320 that I tend to frame this is like for a long time, IT's job was about optimizing how all that on-premise 137 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:33,340 IT was run. Right. And, uh, we, we being part of, you know, the EMC Federation directly benefited from 138 00:12:33,340 --> 00:12:39,800 that with VMware, right? Like VMware conquered that and, and essentially optimized how a huge part of how 139 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:46,340 IT was run. And now that IT there's ways of doing, of optimizing how IT is run. And then you also have 140 00:12:46,340 --> 00:12:52,200 SAS, the next sort of 10 years or whatever is figuring is returning back to writing your own 141 00:12:52,200 --> 00:13:00,180 software. And, uh, I think, uh, you know, not all companies are like this, but a lot of large 142 00:13:00,180 --> 00:13:06,040 organizations that I ended up talking with have kind of forgotten that craft and, uh, they need, 143 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:10,940 they need to return back to how to start doing software. And then as you know, a lot of what we, 144 00:13:10,940 --> 00:13:16,620 we provide is they need the, the frameworks and, uh, the actual tools that help them do it. 145 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:21,740 Yeah. And I, and I think that there were pockets of people in those companies that knew how to do it, 146 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:28,680 but what happens is that when you treated every app deployment and every off the shelf app management, 147 00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:33,400 like its own project, right? So it all got its own build out. And this is where the world of trouble 148 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:38,800 tickets and everything came from, right? Pre-cloud essentially. Everything was a one-off and 149 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:43,480 therefore every custom developed app was treated as a one-off and got its own environment. However, 150 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:51,800 it wanted, I mean, I spent Monday with a really talented team of, um, you know, banking, uh, CIOs 151 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:56,700 from one of the top 10 banks. And, uh, you know, their challenge was that every, they're trying to 152 00:13:56,700 --> 00:14:01,240 build a cloud really to run all these things at massive scale. And they have a ton of custom 153 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:08,000 software, like massive amounts of it. But in the past, because of the mix between running off the shelf 154 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:13,840 and running custom, there was sort of not attention to unifying custom, um, and the way a company like 155 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,980 Facebook or Google or Netflix would pay hyper attention to the infrastructure for every custom app. 156 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:23,500 Um, what happened was that every business came at that, came at them with a different new way of doing 157 00:14:23,500 --> 00:14:29,280 everything. And so, you know, not to plug our stuff too much, but when they found out about spring boot, 158 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:34,540 which is a way of, you know, writing, you know, next generation Java applications without a lot of 159 00:14:34,540 --> 00:14:40,500 variation in terms of how the application and, you know, server environment are set up, um, very 160 00:14:40,500 --> 00:14:45,540 homogenous approach to it, you know, they were thrilled. And that's where a lot of our businesses 161 00:14:45,540 --> 00:14:50,160 come now just from getting to the app dev teams. I mean, there were some beautiful tweets from Comcast 162 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:54,240 and they were public about it, about, we started teaching them spring boot and spring cloud. 163 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,980 They're like, wow, this is really exciting. This is a better way to write custom software. 164 00:14:59,460 --> 00:15:03,780 And then the, the hidden surprise and the hidden treat and what makes Pivotal such a special company 165 00:15:03,780 --> 00:15:08,120 now is that then there's a platform that can operate that at super efficiency, high availability. 166 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:14,820 So it really is, I do think a new way of looking at things, um, you know, holistically from the app 167 00:15:14,820 --> 00:15:19,920 team, the whole way down to the, to the OS. And I think, I think, you know, there's, there's another 168 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:26,020 way I've been metaphorizing in my head is that the, there's, there's been a lot of effort and 169 00:15:26,020 --> 00:15:34,140 software and innovation and work as it were put into automating and perfecting how you operate 170 00:15:34,140 --> 00:15:40,500 infrastructure, right? Like I, I, I, I, I'm, I'm on this podcast, uh, some cloud podcast later today, 171 00:15:40,500 --> 00:15:43,880 and I know they're going to ask me what the cloud is. And I've been thinking about what answer I'm 172 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:48,540 going to give them. Like I should probably have a pat answer I give to everyone at this point, 173 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:52,180 but I don't know what I'd say. That's a good question at this point. 174 00:15:52,740 --> 00:15:56,920 Exactly. It's, it's, it's a question of like, Oh my, I've, I've been studying this for six years and 175 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:02,280 every day I get more confused, like in, in a good way, but it's sort of like, anyways, it's, it's a 176 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:09,340 sort of a, an expert problem, I guess. It's like asking what poetry is or something. Um, but I, I 177 00:16:09,340 --> 00:16:16,160 think, I think a large part of it is, um, is, is at the infrastructure layer. Again, you basically 178 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:22,360 standardize and automate as much as possible so that you're not manually setting up and managing 179 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:27,420 your infrastructure. Like you always need to manually do some things, but the, the big thing 180 00:16:27,420 --> 00:16:32,160 that, that cloud at the infrastructure layers tends to do is just automate lots of stuff and 181 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:36,760 remove variability. And then the benefit you get from there is it's easier to manage. And 182 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:41,620 if it's easier to manage, you can do things with it faster. So when, when, when I've been, 183 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:46,200 when I've been looking at the rise and importance of spring boot and spring cloud, I I've been 184 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:50,940 thinking and, and, and you launched me on this tangent, uh, with your explanation of people 185 00:16:50,940 --> 00:16:57,000 reacting to it is we're almost bringing that notion to the application development middleware 186 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:02,820 layer, where instead of developers coming up with every time they do a new project or a 187 00:17:02,820 --> 00:17:08,760 product, a new way of operationalizing their middleware services, the fully integrated stack 188 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:14,060 that we have and how spring boot and spring cloud fit into it essentially standardizes that. 189 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:18,120 And then you don't have to worry about how you hook together all these microservices and manage 190 00:17:18,120 --> 00:17:22,900 them and how you, how you use something like spring boot to package up the services that you have. 191 00:17:23,380 --> 00:17:28,960 And, and, and I think in this it minus SAS equals what sort of world, it's almost like that starts 192 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:34,460 to be the job that operation needs to do is how do I run this middleware, which I don't think is 193 00:17:34,460 --> 00:17:39,920 really a conversation that's happened in it land in a long time. Like, how do I run that software? It's 194 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:44,380 always been customized and one off. And, uh, I don't know. I mean, I, I feel like a lot of what we're 195 00:17:44,380 --> 00:17:49,880 doing in one six is, is getting towards that. Like here's a standard set of middle. Well, it's not even 196 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:55,580 a standard set of middleware. Here's a standard way to run middleware that allows you to not worry 197 00:17:55,580 --> 00:17:57,620 about how you operationalize it and run it. 198 00:17:57,820 --> 00:18:03,180 And in fact, I think the great thing, and I think where people had tried to come at this before was 199 00:18:03,180 --> 00:18:10,320 they, they picked seven templates of middleware. So like, here's seven formatted VMs. We call this 200 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:15,640 IaaS plus that you're allowed to choose from, but then they just handed those VMs with that middleware 201 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:20,700 on it to the teams. And that's not really middleware as a service, right? You're like, well, how would I 202 00:18:20,700 --> 00:18:26,640 bind service discovery to one of these nodes so that it can find the other ones? Well, that's left to the 203 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,900 developer to think about. Yeah. Those are just, uh, to use our metaphor, those are just hamster cages 204 00:18:30,900 --> 00:18:34,820 you're putting people in. Like it doesn't really let them create outside of the hamster cage. 205 00:18:35,820 --> 00:18:40,820 I, I think having gone through the pain of looking at that glass, yes, that's not fun to look at that 206 00:18:40,820 --> 00:18:46,380 glass. It's, it's sort of like, Hey, this is a little limiting. Um, and that's where it kind of got 207 00:18:46,380 --> 00:18:52,920 a bad reputation of like no one wanted what it gave them. Um, and I think people have been really 208 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:59,300 excited because we've become something that developers get excited about getting from it and 209 00:18:59,300 --> 00:19:05,740 put it in a simple sense, simple sentence. Yeah, no, I think that's, that's, uh, that's definitely 210 00:19:05,740 --> 00:19:10,300 the case. So, so let's, you know, there's another aspect. Let's, let's go back to the, we were, 211 00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:16,320 we were joking about, uh, ALM and SDLC. And that's another, uh, another clutch of things we do. 212 00:19:16,380 --> 00:19:20,920 What we we've been doing now in, in the reference architect, I mean, in the cloud area, I would 213 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:25,460 almost call the type of work we've been doing. They're almost a reference architecture. That's 214 00:19:25,460 --> 00:19:31,920 sort of integrated. We have, we have an opinionated tool chain that you could put in place in the end 215 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:37,100 of what you would need for your, your sort of whole ALM process essentially. 216 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:44,180 Yeah. So like, let's get explicit in one, in the one six release, uh, in November, we've integrated 217 00:19:44,180 --> 00:19:51,320 three partners, get lab, artifactory, and cloud bees Jenkins. Um, and we're also bringing Pivotal 218 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:57,240 tracker by the way, um, which is not an external, but it's part of the ALM process that Pivotal labs 219 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:03,220 is so good at, um, directly to the platform in a turnkey way. And we've done the same thing, 220 00:20:03,220 --> 00:20:08,640 which is we've, we've brought cloud automation, scaling, unified identity management, et cetera, 221 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:13,160 to all of these things such that you just push a button on the platform. And now you've got, 222 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:18,380 you know, scalable, high availability version control system integrated into your platform 223 00:20:18,380 --> 00:20:24,500 with GitLab right there. Um, and so we're taking it even to the more extreme end. And I think 224 00:20:24,500 --> 00:20:30,340 people, people get that they just want to write code and then hand it to a system. 225 00:20:30,460 --> 00:20:36,620 Like, I think everyone gets that. And in a sense, Cloud Foundry has always been about that as like, 226 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,280 here's my code running the cloud for me. I don't care how it was the beautiful little haiku that 227 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:47,060 Unsee wrote about it. Um, but you know, there's something that happens before you've got that code 228 00:20:47,060 --> 00:20:54,020 already packaged and ready to deploy. And those things look like version control, uh, artifact and 229 00:20:54,020 --> 00:20:58,420 build management and, uh, CI systems. And so that's what we've, we've had to add to the system. 230 00:20:58,420 --> 00:21:03,400 So now you can kind of come from your very first moment of composition, um, and GitLab 231 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:08,140 ends and on the system. I think that's, that's, again, that's really focusing on like, look, 232 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:12,120 our job is to deliver custom software. So let's not leave a rock unturned and helping you do that. 233 00:21:12,380 --> 00:21:18,240 Yeah. And I think, I think it's also a, uh, I mean, it'll be fun to see how we evolve it over the 234 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:22,880 next, the next year, essentially. And more importantly, how people use it and adapt it and how it pans out. 235 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:30,060 But it is, uh, we, we, we talk a lot about, you should treat your continuous delivery pipeline 236 00:21:30,060 --> 00:21:36,140 as a factory. Like that's, that's your primary asset essentially that allows you to produce things. 237 00:21:36,140 --> 00:21:44,340 And it's, it'll be fun to see what having a unified end to end thing looks like. And, and, and, and, 238 00:21:44,340 --> 00:21:50,280 and essentially like how, how that evolves because up until now, like, I mean, I mean, arguably if you 239 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:56,640 were a, let's say Microsoft developer, historically, you sort of had your MSD and CDs and you just had 240 00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,340 everything, like everything from one source, all integrated, it all fits together. 241 00:22:00,780 --> 00:22:04,580 And that's why, even though they were closed source and expensive, they did well for a while. 242 00:22:04,860 --> 00:22:11,340 Exactly. And, and, and it'll be fun to see if we can bring that, that beneficial best practice 243 00:22:11,340 --> 00:22:17,220 into the general world, right? Like, and, and if, if we can have a fully integrated pipe end to end, 244 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:22,700 cause man, you could spend a lot of time integrating that together. And, and, uh, and I mean, 245 00:22:22,700 --> 00:22:26,100 basically waste a lot of time on all the differences between all the installs of it. 246 00:22:26,820 --> 00:22:32,080 I talked to one customer, they're like, we have five version control systems, five build systems, 247 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:36,980 and all of it runs through custom trouble ticket deployments with IT in the middle. 248 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:42,340 And we have some code running in production. And this is the blind that terrified me. And we're 249 00:22:42,340 --> 00:22:48,540 not sure how it got there. Like, we don't know what maze through these systems it took to get there. 250 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:53,860 Yeah. Yeah. No, my, my, uh, my, my, my cherished anecdote along that line is I remember I was 251 00:22:53,860 --> 00:22:59,080 talking with someone at, at, uh, at a, at a large, a large company and I had to slow them down the 252 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:03,440 conversation and like, let me just, let me just explain back to you what I think you just said. 253 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:10,740 You basically wrote, uh, a chef script to open up a ticket for this part of your build pipeline, 254 00:23:10,740 --> 00:23:17,040 right? Like, like in order to automate the whole pipeline, there's still a help desk involved 255 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:22,000 and you fully automated that. And indeed that's what they had done, but, but you know, it's, it's, 256 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,980 it's, it's that motley sort of chain. And, and with all of this stuff, once you optimize the full 257 00:23:26,980 --> 00:23:31,520 end to end process, I think, I think there's interesting new benefits that, uh, only the sort 258 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:36,080 of unicorns or whatever have appreciated that that will be bringing to the, the, the rest of the world. 259 00:23:36,620 --> 00:23:41,420 Yeah. And I think one thing maybe good talk about is Home Depot gave a great presentation 260 00:23:41,420 --> 00:23:46,460 in Colorado, which I unfortunately didn't get to see. I'm definitely going to post a video of it, 261 00:23:46,460 --> 00:23:53,620 but, uh, they, they're, they're all in on Cloud Foundry. Uh, it's growing really rapidly at Home 262 00:23:53,620 --> 00:24:00,180 Depot in the presentation or even like, Hey, we ran out of capacity on our cluster, but that's a winning 263 00:24:00,180 --> 00:24:05,860 to us. Like when we realized that we needed to add a bunch of capacity, that was so a big moment for us 264 00:24:05,860 --> 00:24:10,640 because we're like, they've kind of gotten to the point where they realized that every instance that 265 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:16,380 they run on, you know, CF is an order of magnitude or two orders of magnitude more efficient than any 266 00:24:16,380 --> 00:24:22,520 other system they have. Right. So what, whatever's there is goodness, but they were benchmarking 267 00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:27,240 themselves and they're like, we can now push apps through this system end to end and 15 seconds, 268 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:34,920 but why does it take us four and a half hours to do deploys sometimes? Right. And what they found 269 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:41,680 was, is there were still people who wanted to kind of do manual checks or manual steps or tickets or 270 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:48,660 something, even now that the process is completely transparent and automated. And this leads me to 271 00:24:48,660 --> 00:24:52,440 kind of our ambitions with, you know, what we want to do in the future releases, which is, 272 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:58,180 you know, I don't know if you've seen, have you seen our new APM demo where the app performance 273 00:24:58,180 --> 00:25:03,980 real-time metrics and such? Yeah. Yeah. I think I, well, I, I think, yeah, I've seen that. You've also 274 00:25:03,980 --> 00:25:08,200 like demoed some good, uh, some good stuff on some cloud native after darks here and there. 275 00:25:08,580 --> 00:25:12,420 Yeah. I was playing around with the newest version of it for the first time on cloud native after the 276 00:25:12,420 --> 00:25:20,360 dark. Yep. You could tell cause I was learning about it. Um, and, uh, the thing I see in the 277 00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:28,700 future is, is that it, before we used to count on human judgment for better or for worse about these 278 00:25:28,700 --> 00:25:34,360 deployments. And then oftentimes even then we'd have 30 people or a lot of people ready to do the 279 00:25:34,360 --> 00:25:39,440 deploy, a major deploy so that if it needed to be rollback or firefighting, we could send humans into 280 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:50,280 the blaze, uh, once more onto the breach, um, as, as they said in, uh, Henry V. And, uh, the, the, 281 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:55,500 the thing for me is, is that Netflix doesn't do that. Like if you went and talked, there's an awesome 282 00:25:55,500 --> 00:26:01,920 article on Pivotal, um, you know, the collaboration between Pivotal Netflix. And while they did 283 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:07,260 endorse spring boot and spring cloud at a, you know, kind of completely authoritative way, they're like, 284 00:26:07,260 --> 00:26:12,800 we run Netflix on spring boot and spring cloud for our group. They also said like, by the way, 285 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:19,260 our Atlas metric system is the only way we go this fast because you can't go fast with your deploys. 286 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,080 You don't have a metric system constantly telling you immediately in real time about how things are 287 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:30,160 behaving and the ability to shape traffic out a little bit at a time. So I do think that if you 288 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:36,660 think about these cultural transitions from kind of human judgment and big team and go slow and use a 289 00:26:36,660 --> 00:26:43,480 lot of humans to go fast until we really start to perfect this metric system as well, people are 290 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,200 still going to, even though the system can go fast, you still want that insight into it. So I think 291 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:52,000 that's an important, important thing for us to, to continue to bring to market. And I'm excited about 292 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,700 that, that, you know, alpha code that's there and it's going to be in the product very soon. 293 00:26:55,820 --> 00:27:02,020 Yeah. And I, and I, I think, I think that connects with another sort of, I don't know, 294 00:27:02,260 --> 00:27:07,880 message or, or, or philosophic take on all of this to that. I find myself and ourselves collectively 295 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:15,020 having to get across to people is, is if you want to be a software producing company or good at 296 00:27:15,020 --> 00:27:21,660 software, one of the best practices of software companies is that they don't necessarily use 297 00:27:21,660 --> 00:27:27,300 just random off the shelf ways of monitoring and managing their stuff. Like they really do instrument 298 00:27:27,300 --> 00:27:31,660 and they, they need to have a very good, their applications have to have a good understanding 299 00:27:31,660 --> 00:27:37,760 of how you're monitoring it and looking at it. And so you should expect from, from vendors like us 300 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:42,660 and the people who are producing the software to actually be providing you ways of monitoring and 301 00:27:42,660 --> 00:27:46,880 managing it. Right? Like, I mean, we, we have good partnerships with new relic and app dynamics and 302 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:51,540 all sorts of other people who can plug in and monitor things, but you're going to need to spend a fair 303 00:27:51,540 --> 00:27:56,300 amount of time doing customized instrumentation because you're running that software. And it's, 304 00:27:56,300 --> 00:28:01,640 it's not just like the old days of just, you know, running some ping stuff and monitoring it. It 305 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:06,120 becomes part of the core competency operating it. And so that stuff should probably be baked into the 306 00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:10,540 platform more and more. Well, I just, I, you know, I just want to change what a deploy looks like. And 307 00:28:10,540 --> 00:28:17,360 a deploy should be a share of traffic, not a hundred percent. So you should be learning about your new code 308 00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:24,140 in real time. You should have real time metrics about what's happening such that you don't have some sort of, 309 00:28:24,140 --> 00:28:30,380 you know, uh, Oh, I got to wait five minutes to see what our APM told me it has. Um, 310 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:36,040 and, uh, you should be able to then automatically shave on more and more traffic. Now, part of this 311 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:40,200 gets into how you design your software too, in terms of backwards compatible APIs, you can roll the 312 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:46,820 software out, roll it back if you need to. That's important. Um, but you know, I, I actually, you 313 00:28:46,820 --> 00:28:50,600 know, I think app dynamics, even though we're going to have the basics of APM and in the product, I think 314 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:55,140 over time, there's always room for them to give even more advanced, you know, moon based metrics about 315 00:28:55,140 --> 00:29:00,200 what's happening. And I think I just want to make this very turnkey over time such that the deployment 316 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:05,740 is always enriched by metrics. Cause I think that's just sort of like, you know, you flew here last 317 00:29:05,740 --> 00:29:10,460 night. You're not counting on a human anymore as much to fly your plane. You know, the, the computer 318 00:29:10,460 --> 00:29:14,720 is making judgments and I just think software can get to the same place where, Hey, this deploy is 319 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,640 working or it's not should be a computer telling you, you know, how it's going. 320 00:29:18,100 --> 00:29:22,040 Yeah. And I, I think before, before we close out, you, you, you brought up the home Depot and I think 321 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:26,540 it'd be good to go over, uh, you know, customer and momentum that we've had since last we talked to, 322 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,920 to close out with, but that you, you're touching on another notion that I found myself talking with 323 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:38,080 people a lot about where, um, to, to, to start at the end, to get to the beginning, they, they ask a lot 324 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:42,560 of questions where, where annoyingly for them, the answer is, yeah, you don't really worry about that 325 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:48,100 anymore. Right. And I, and I, and I think it gets to this notion you were, you know, metaphorizing 326 00:29:48,100 --> 00:29:55,540 to an airplane is with the right kind of cloud platform in place, you can actually start trusting 327 00:29:55,540 --> 00:30:01,140 the system a lot more than you used to trust it. Right. So you don't need that team of people there 328 00:30:01,140 --> 00:30:06,740 ready to put out the fire when you do something. And it, it takes a lot. I mean, we, you, you've been 329 00:30:06,740 --> 00:30:10,600 around since the beginning, we've been working on this platform for a long time to get to this 330 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:16,400 point. Uh, but essentially once you have a trusted platform in place, there's all this 331 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:21,560 part of your process and the way you're thinking about it, that turns out to be waste in the here 332 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,680 and now things you don't have to do anymore. And then you can start to move faster and trust the 333 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:30,020 system more. And I think, I think a lot of the hurdles that kind of get thrown in front of us 334 00:30:30,020 --> 00:30:36,020 before people are comfortable kind of getting into that environment has to do with, uh, establishing 335 00:30:36,020 --> 00:30:41,580 and trusting that the system is actually going to run and operate correctly, which, which is a nice 336 00:30:41,580 --> 00:30:46,640 thing to get them to. Yeah. And I think that's where DevOps teams were kind of stranded for a little 337 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:51,880 bit before they had a robust structured platform with these kinds of metrics, which is that they 338 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:57,480 were seen as going faster, but not necessarily being safer. Exactly. That's right. People would use a 339 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:03,040 word like cowboy in there a lot. Yeah. And, and in some ways maybe that was the necessary exploration 340 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:09,480 phase, but at mega scale, you got to know that these, these big companies like Netflix, like they've 341 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:14,520 got the thing instrumented to the ninth degree. Like, in fact, they even said that their cloud platform 342 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:20,420 is really just a metric system in disguise. Like that's mostly what it is. Um, because, you know, 343 00:31:20,420 --> 00:31:29,440 to our point about cloud, um, and not about poetry, once you, uh, you know, clouds instead of scalable 344 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:35,140 primitives, right. And I, that's what I believe. And it's scalable primitives for, for, for running 345 00:31:35,140 --> 00:31:43,780 software, um, and, uh, deliver often as a service, but the is the scalable primitives. So you have all 346 00:31:43,780 --> 00:31:47,300 these scalable primitives, which you can muster into existence, be it a VM, be it a container, be it 347 00:31:47,300 --> 00:31:51,100 load balancing, you know, in seconds. And the question is, well, how do you orchestrate all of 348 00:31:51,100 --> 00:31:55,040 that over time? And it's gotta be with data, right? Like you, you can't just have humans going, 349 00:31:55,140 --> 00:32:00,100 oh, that looks about right. Um, so I think that's a very interesting future is just like the degree 350 00:32:00,100 --> 00:32:04,120 of integrated metrics. Now that we've made the deployment and life cycle operations on the app 351 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:09,200 boring, like that's great. But then how do you learn more and more? And then how does that app 352 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,880 fundamentally drive an experience for someone on the other end is the ultimate reason it exists. 353 00:32:13,180 --> 00:32:16,100 So the performance and metrics of it is kind of the fun part, I think. 354 00:32:16,700 --> 00:32:21,960 Indeed. Actually, actually observing and seeing how your stuff is operating in production or in the 355 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:26,760 wild is, I mean, that's, that's the, uh, that's the thing I try to emphasize to people is continuous 356 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:32,320 delivery is great, but if you ignore that feedback loop, you're just sort of burning money or burning 357 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:37,540 opportunity essentially, right? Like that's, you want to observe how things are working and what 358 00:32:37,540 --> 00:32:42,580 people are doing with it so that you can improve the software, not just get uptime and have it running. 359 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:47,180 And that, uh, that'll be the exciting thing to see panning out. And, and that gets to the last 360 00:32:47,180 --> 00:32:53,020 point, right? So I, I remember, uh, uh, you know, one of the more enjoyable aspects of the job is 361 00:32:53,020 --> 00:32:59,000 because of the type of, of customers we have, not all of them are, are P are companies that you deal 362 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:04,500 with every day, but all of them are like regular real companies. And so I, I, I remember watching kind 363 00:33:04,500 --> 00:33:09,780 of our, um, our, our, our, our lead up to basically the Home Depot using us and doing that presentation 364 00:33:09,780 --> 00:33:13,980 you were talking about. And it's exciting. Cause like I go there every other, every weekend. 365 00:33:14,500 --> 00:33:18,980 And so it's, it's, it's, and, and you see this across all sorts of, uh, the types of customers 366 00:33:18,980 --> 00:33:23,880 that we have. And, and so, I mean, that's, that's one thing, uh, that I wanted to close out with is 367 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:29,960 like, so how would, I mean, go over the, uh, the, the, the types of new customers we've been 368 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:34,020 signing up and like what, what that's looking like at the moment, because I get asked this 369 00:33:34,020 --> 00:33:38,840 question a lot, being a former analyst, like people often ask me to characterize like what 370 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:44,680 the market share is of Pivotal or like how we're doing out there. And, and so far there hasn't been 371 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:49,420 a lot of great analysts writing up to like answer that question. So we're, it's kind of behooves us 372 00:33:49,420 --> 00:33:54,900 to define who's buying this and, and, and what that market looks like. And I think, I think you 373 00:33:54,900 --> 00:34:01,780 would have a, uh, a good take on that. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think that, uh, it's been 374 00:34:01,780 --> 00:34:08,900 really interesting to see how strong our growth has been in the fortune. I'd call it 200 and even 375 00:34:08,900 --> 00:34:15,440 100, because if, if you think about the people that have an at scale problem, right, they're not like 376 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:21,120 running an app, right? Like they want to deliver N number of apps. And they'd also are transitioning 377 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:25,920 from a period where they were doing a lot of bespoke it of the kind we talked about before. 378 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:31,940 So they have a very traditional it organization. Our platform offers a huge instant arbitrage for 379 00:34:31,940 --> 00:34:35,720 their ability to deliver custom software, especially when combined with something like spring boot. 380 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,720 So like we come in and they're like, wow, so this is how we build and run custom software at scale. 381 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:47,040 Um, and you know, the other company I mentioned there was Comcast. I mean, that's another daily 382 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:52,720 brand. And in fact, my fun game that I play with myself when I'm on the road is I look at, uh, names 383 00:34:52,720 --> 00:34:57,360 on buildings and I keep track of market share. Like how do I keep track of market share? Right. 384 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:04,000 Like I'm, I'm, I'm pretty competitive. And so anytime I drive by, uh, in my, my, my quote is if you 385 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,920 have, if you're big enough to have your name on a building, you're big enough for Cloud Foundry. 386 00:35:08,580 --> 00:35:14,400 Um, and so I kind of keep track of the market share of, you know, names I see on buildings 387 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:19,360 versus how we're doing. And on my ride into the, you know, um, right into the hotel last 388 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:25,000 night late from JFK, really remarkable number of the banks and major businesses of New York 389 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:30,000 city that, um, you know, have their brands out, you know, as I drove by, I was like Pivotal 390 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,500 Cloud Foundry customer, Pivotal Cloud Foundry customer, Pivotal Cloud Foundry customer. 391 00:35:33,660 --> 00:35:39,020 So it's getting better. It's getting pretty, pretty neat. Um, so, you know, there's a lot 392 00:35:39,020 --> 00:35:45,540 of momentum there. And, uh, especially when you think about, you know, the fortune 200, uh, 393 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:50,920 and those kinds of customers. So, you know, I think specifically what's been happening though, 394 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:58,260 is if I were to characterize it in some depth is, you know, banking has been facing an efficiency 395 00:35:58,260 --> 00:36:03,640 crisis. So the reason we've become pretty popular in banking is people realize that they 396 00:36:03,660 --> 00:36:07,640 used to be so successful. I don't know if you remember pre 2008, like how much, you know, 397 00:36:07,700 --> 00:36:13,200 banking people made and how lucrative a business was. Right. So they had all the money in the 398 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:19,180 world to throw at every project. So guess what? Every project got its own it team, right? Like 399 00:36:19,180 --> 00:36:26,080 its own everything. And so they're coming from a, an era of vast heterogeneity, like very privileged 400 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:30,660 heterogeneity in a sense. And they're looking at this and going like, well, you know, we're not 401 00:36:30,660 --> 00:36:36,400 being valued quite as much as we used to. Um, and we actually need to take some, some money out of 402 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:40,880 this and we need to be efficient. And to some extent, they also want to digitally differentiate 403 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:45,040 themselves and customer experiences too. But I think they're kind of, they're kind of like having 404 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:50,820 that hangover moment when the chicken walks by and, uh, they're like, wow, we could be a little bit 405 00:36:50,820 --> 00:36:57,340 more efficient here. Um, and so I think there's been some unbelievable traction in the top 10 banks in 406 00:36:57,340 --> 00:37:00,460 the world with Pivotal Cloud Foundry. In fact, that's how I'm spending my next two weeks seeing 407 00:37:00,460 --> 00:37:05,380 about six of them. Um, because of the need to drive digital consumer experience as well as get more 408 00:37:05,380 --> 00:37:09,240 efficient. And one of the coolest things that's happening is that we've got this one, two punch 409 00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:16,240 going on in banking where we're teaching their developers spring boot for all the new apps. Um, but 410 00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:21,120 then we also started to actually go through their Java estates and say, well, what could you run in a 411 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:25,260 more of a spring boot fashion if we did a light migration? And it turns out a lot of the apps 412 00:37:25,260 --> 00:37:30,180 that were written with these heavyweight app servers actually only use the same, you know, 413 00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:35,680 kind of servlet interfaces that modern cloud native apps use, but they had too much extra boilerplate 414 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,220 around them. So we're actually migrating with some of those for customers. And that's really exciting 415 00:37:39,220 --> 00:37:42,000 because that allows them to get kind of critical mass in the platform. 416 00:37:42,500 --> 00:37:42,560 Right. 417 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:48,500 And then the third thing that we're developing in that case is that a lot of banking needs a lot 418 00:37:48,500 --> 00:37:55,100 of integration work. Um, and so we launched Tibco business works on Cloud Foundry. That's heavily 419 00:37:55,100 --> 00:37:59,940 used by a bunch of the big banks, um, so that their integration, you know, and enterprise service 420 00:37:59,940 --> 00:38:05,420 bus is, is actually able to be run in a cloud native way. And then some of those customers don't even 421 00:38:05,420 --> 00:38:10,280 like that pattern anymore. And now they're starting to use spring cloud data flow to enable kind of 422 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:17,880 integration and, uh, you know, lightweight, uh, data microservices. So it's sort of like this one, 423 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:23,480 two, three punch in those environments where we teach their developer spring boot. Um, we help them 424 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,840 migrate apps that might not have needed all the heavyweight boilerplate that they have. And then 425 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:32,280 we're also even starting to work on some of their integration use cases all on top of, you know, 426 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:38,820 kind of Pivotal CF and frankly spring boot. So that's, that's kind of been fun. Um, and, uh, 427 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:42,880 auto manufacturing is another place that highlight where, you know, you saw, we launched the Mercedes 428 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:48,780 me app on Pivotal Cloud Foundry with spring boot. That was incredible. And I'd say similar to banking, 429 00:38:48,780 --> 00:38:54,140 like, you know, some high percentage of the top 10 auto manufacturers are working with us. 430 00:38:55,060 --> 00:38:59,200 And the reason is they've got this whole connected car initiative hitting them. And they're going 431 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,260 through exactly what you and I talked about, which is like, how do we become good at 432 00:39:02,260 --> 00:39:09,040 running software? Like really good. Yeah. Like there is a fight right now between Mercedes and BMW for 433 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:13,300 their best connected car app. Like when you talk to those teams, it is like a hockey fight. Like it's 434 00:39:13,300 --> 00:39:16,840 a match and they're like, we're going to write a better app and we're going to have a better 435 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:20,340 connected experience. So like it's become an existential part of their product development. 436 00:39:21,060 --> 00:39:25,860 So those are just two, you know, and then obviously in, in retail, we've seen a lot of growth with, 437 00:39:25,860 --> 00:39:31,400 uh, you know, um, both Kroger and home Depot have, uh, spoken about their adoption of, 438 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:36,980 of Cloud Foundry. And, uh, when we're heavy at a SpringOne, when I was there learning about, 439 00:39:36,980 --> 00:39:42,740 you know, cloud native platforms, frameworks as well. So, you know, those industries each have 440 00:39:42,740 --> 00:39:46,660 their own challenges. You know, I think retail always wants efficiency, but now they're trying 441 00:39:46,660 --> 00:39:52,860 to do, you know, new product development and, uh, you know, delivery, you know, digital outreach, 442 00:39:53,020 --> 00:39:58,400 marketing, et cetera. So just those three industries, but those are a lot of the things you drive by when 443 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:04,260 you go down the street, right? You're like, okay, car dealer, uh, bank, a big retailer. Those are the 444 00:40:04,260 --> 00:40:08,840 experiences we all have every day. Yeah. And, and, and, and for me personally, like what's, what's 445 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:13,740 exciting about it is like, for the most part, the goals of all those companies is like making their 446 00:40:13,740 --> 00:40:19,380 software better, like the software I'll end up using. And so like it directly, uh, you know, 447 00:40:19,420 --> 00:40:24,800 benefits me essentially that, uh, that, that they can improve the, the, uh, you know, the way I 448 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:30,520 interact with those companies. It'll, uh, it'll turn out to be quite nice essentially. Well, 449 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:35,220 yeah. And most importantly, just to close on this, it gives me fiance credibility because when you work, 450 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:40,980 that's right, when you work on complex, you know, in data center software, they, people have a hard 451 00:40:40,980 --> 00:40:44,760 time figuring out what you do, but she hears the calls I'm on and the names that I'm talking about 452 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:50,680 a lot now. Yeah. And so we drive by and she's like, oh yeah, Home Depot. I've heard of that. 453 00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:56,000 Exactly. It's, it's, it's, it's going to be a much more thrilling, uh, holiday season explaining 454 00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:04,600 to the relatives what, uh, what it is I do. Exactly. Exactly. Well, that's good stuff. I 455 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:09,660 think, I think this is a good catching up around the, uh, the, the, the Pivotal Cloud Foundry 1.6 456 00:41:09,660 --> 00:41:14,100 release. Like we hit upon some of the major items there and there's, there's plenty of, uh, we'll put 457 00:41:14,100 --> 00:41:19,240 in the show notes for this podcast. There's plenty of details about all the little and big stuff in 458 00:41:19,240 --> 00:41:24,500 there beyond the kind of, uh, context that James and I were talking about. And, um, so thanks for 459 00:41:24,500 --> 00:41:30,520 making the time there often. I, I always enjoy like the, uh, the, the Mad Men Manhattan background 460 00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:35,980 noise of, of New York, right? Just kind of floating around in the back there. It's fun to, to do this 461 00:41:35,980 --> 00:41:40,820 one just to close out, uh, overlooking, uh, Union Square Park and the people coming and going in New 462 00:41:40,820 --> 00:41:44,880 York. It's a, it's a, as a San Francisco person, it's still exotic enough for me to see. It's kind of 463 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:51,820 fun. Exactly. Well, and, uh, so thanks for listening, everyone. You can find all the show notes and 464 00:41:51,820 --> 00:41:58,220 everything that we have. If you go to pivotal.io slash podcasts with an S or without an S and with 465 00:41:58,220 --> 00:41:59,780 that, we'll see everyone next time.