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Well, hey, it's been a long time since we recorded anything.

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Yes, it has, actually.

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It's been two years now, I think, something like that.

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Yeah, I think oddly enough, like the last time we recorded,

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we were talking about Federation-related stuff about VMware and stuff like that.

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But I'll have to go back and look.

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But we used to have a podcast called Back of the Envelope.

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As I jokingly like to say, it was the podcast where every episode,

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where I think about, for several episodes, I would say,

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Ed, I don't understand how money works.

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Can you explain it to me?

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And then I would say, Coté, nobody understands how money works.

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But here's what everybody theorizes.

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Exactly, exactly.

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And so relevant to that, I've been puttering around with figuring out ROI

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and return on investment and things like that recently.

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And I published a piece recently about trying to sort of address

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and shore up one of the questions I get asked a lot, which is like,

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so with this DevOps and this cloud and all this wacky new way of doing software,

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what's the ROI for it?

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And I was actually talking with someone about this this morning.

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Like, I think when you get asked an ROI question,

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it's what I call like a kind of a Rorschach question.

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Like, it usually says a lot more about the asker

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than the actual thing they're asking about.

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There's all sorts of different things they tend to want when they're asking about it.

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But specifically, when you get down to something like switching over to doing

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like agile software development or DevOps or all this process stuff,

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it's almost, I have to resist the urge to be that old,

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what do they call them?

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The bastard operator from hell or whatever?

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Like, you know, there's always the answer.

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That question is invalid.

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The gray-bearded eunuchs guy with the pizza stains on a Star Trek shirt?

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Exactly.

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And I feel like that's the real answer for sort of like return on investment questions

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when it comes to like process and culture.

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But it's not the helpful answer.

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Yeah.

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And so I come to you, Ed.

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You're going to be for, yeah.

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How does money work?

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Okay.

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So I'll start off with a question to you

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because I want to make sure we're kind of baselining correctly.

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And I'm not a tech person anymore.

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So I follow enough to talk about it.

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But so what are we defining as DevOps in this particular case?

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And I realize that's kind of a fuzzy thing.

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Oh, sure.

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So, you know, I'm speaking as a person who just hears that term kind of thrown around

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and I hear things like chef and puppet and crowbar and whatever.

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Right.

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So we'll have a pretty simple definition.

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And that is, so what is not DevOps?

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Let's start with that.

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So traditionally, in companies that are working on custom software,

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they have teams of developers and they have teams of operations people.

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And the developers, they get some requirements from somewhere,

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the leap to conclusions, Matt guy in office space.

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And they write this software and then the software is ready to be delivered

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or deployed or whatever.

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And they give it to the operations people who figure out how to get it up and running on servers.

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And they make sure that it stays up and running and they monitor it.

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And if things break, the operations people try to figure out what to do.

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And then at some point, the developers write a new version of the software

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and they kind of give it to the operations people to install the upgrade.

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And this all kind of works fine and dandy.

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And you might have a service desk in the middle.

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But over the past, you know, recent years, when you're delivering most of your software over the Internet,

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whether you're a traditional vendor or a non-tech company,

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like you could be an online banking application,

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or you might be a health insurance company where someone files a claim to your web app or whatever.

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Or you might have a mobile app.

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And there's this expectation that not only should that work,

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like your software should be up and scalable,

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but that you might want to be able to deploy changes to it every week

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or multiple times a day.

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Like Wealthfront is a good example here where it's interesting.

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You go to their web page and right on their web page,

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they're like, we deploy software every day.

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And like, it's not their business to be a tech company.

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They're a, I don't know what you would call them.

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They're an investment service, essentially.

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And so tactically, it's become valuable for companies to be able to deploy their software

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as frequently as possible, weekly if not daily.

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And so if you move to that kind of thing,

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the old way of having separate groups doesn't really work out so well.

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Because when you're moving that fast,

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you need to take a lot of operational consideration into how your applications are run.

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And conversely, if you're the ops people who need to deploy and to support this,

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you have to have, you have to understand the application a lot more.

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So the notion of DevOps is that we combine these two teams together more,

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along with a bunch of tools that we might have and some training.

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And we put them all on the same team

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so that they all kind of have responsibility for the product, if you will.

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And so it's a shift in how the organization is laid out

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and kind of how you plan out the projects.

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Okay, so when you're making this shift, where does the ROI question come in?

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In the, why are we paying to send you to these conferences to learn this stuff?

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Or is it, why are we getting the software in to help you do this stuff?

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Or why are we...

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Exactly.

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And then this...

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Is it all those?

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Yeah, yeah.

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This is what I meant by like, it's a Rorschach kind of question, right?

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Where the way that someone answers those questions

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is like determines why they're asking you about ROI.

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Yeah.

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And so the first way that I think people are answering this question

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is they're using ROI in maybe an incorrect way.

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I mean, you tell me...

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Well, let's face facts.

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Yeah.

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99% of the time when someone up the corporate chain

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asks you an ROI question,

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if they're a finance person,

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they're probably just trying to check off the box

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and do their job to make sure

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the parent that they looked at this, right?

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Yeah.

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If they're anybody else,

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it's typically a convince me I'm not going to get fired

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if this whole thing goes wrong.

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Exactly.

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Right.

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And the more cheerful way I would put that

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is I need proof that this works.

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Yes.

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That's right.

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And that it works without runaway costs, right?

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That it works in an affordable manner.

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Right.

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It could be affordable or profitable

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depending on the vantage point that you have,

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but that it's not going to be a money pit.

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Right.

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So, I mean, return on investment,

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just in a nutshell,

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is how much am I getting back

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in relation to what I put in, right?

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And typically, it's kind of measured on,

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you know, some timeframe, right?

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So annual basis, typically.

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So if I invest a million dollars

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and I get, you know,

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$250,000 back annually,

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that's a 25% ROI, right?

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I mean, it's very, very simple math, right?

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So the question becomes,

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how do you define what you put in

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and what you got out?

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Because, you know,

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in the case of DevOps, to your point,

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if we're talking about a cultural change,

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there's a number of things

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kind of going in there.

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And so the ROI calculation

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gets really kind of,

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you can make it as complex

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or as simple as you want to make it.

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Really, that speaks to me

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of more of an operational change.

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And so how would you measure improvement?

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I'd measure it in number of deliveries, right?

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Are we delivering every day?

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Or we used to take us three months

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to do a cycle and now it's taken us,

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we're doing it every day.

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So the cycles are incrementally faster.

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And, you know,

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you could probably try to analyze

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number of features added,

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but I would argue

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from a software development standpoint,

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that's kind of fuzzy, right?

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You know, but to your point,

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it's just a cultural shift.

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And the reality is the ROI,

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from my vantage point,

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kind of looking at it

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from a corporate perspective,

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the ROI shouldn't be measured

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on how I get the product to market.

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Like in other words,

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I'm taking costs out

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of the product delivery.

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It should be measured on

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what's my return on investment

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on the project, right?

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So if I'm using DevOps

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to put together Facebook's,

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you know, social media platform,

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their website, right?

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I'm not going to try

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and calculate an ROI

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on the DevOps pieces

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of the continuous integration

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of delivery.

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I'm going to measure the ROI

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on the website,

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the whole website.

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And, you know,

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because if you try

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to make it really granular,

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you start conflating things

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on, you know,

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the product side

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that are kind of seeping

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into the delivery side.

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And then what you're talking

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about with DevOps

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is actually marrying

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those two together, right?

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So it's kind of

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a continuous cycle

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where, you know,

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if you're talking

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about an agile methodology,

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so sales and marketing

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or the developers

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are coming up

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with a nifty feature,

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it's getting rolled

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into the site.

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That's causing more users

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to come onto the platform,

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which is driving

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advertising revenue.

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And if I can do that faster,

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I kind of create

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this continuous feedback loop.

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So picking out the pieces

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that were delivered

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by the faster

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continuous integration

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versus the pieces

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that are delivered

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by the developer

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having the idea

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versus the pieces

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that were the sales

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and marketing guy

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going out

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and selling the ads,

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it's really kind of

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an irrelevant question.

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You know?

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Right.

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Wrong question.

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Well, yeah,

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it absolutely is.

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And it's also,

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you know,

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there's a lot

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of this stuff,

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especially when you're

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talking about

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any sort of

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capital investment,

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right,

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where you're talking

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about making,

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you know,

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laying out a chunk

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of money today

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to get some sort

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of return on

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in the future,

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right?

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When you start

273
00:09:25,500 --> 00:09:26,540
talking about that stuff,

274
00:09:26,900 --> 00:09:28,760
there's a time lag there,

275
00:09:29,100 --> 00:09:29,360
right?

276
00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:30,000
So there's a time,

277
00:09:30,100 --> 00:09:30,520
in other words,

278
00:09:30,580 --> 00:09:31,400
I'm shelling out

279
00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:32,580
a bunch of costs today,

280
00:09:32,700 --> 00:09:34,260
so let's just take

281
00:09:34,260 --> 00:09:37,900
let's take Apple

282
00:09:37,900 --> 00:09:38,380
and the iPhone,

283
00:09:38,740 --> 00:09:38,920
right?

284
00:09:38,940 --> 00:09:39,260
When they were

285
00:09:39,260 --> 00:09:40,140
developing the iPhone,

286
00:09:40,820 --> 00:09:41,340
you could see

287
00:09:41,340 --> 00:09:42,140
their capital expenditures

288
00:09:42,140 --> 00:09:43,100
was kind of ticking up

289
00:09:43,100 --> 00:09:43,900
and their R&D expenses

290
00:09:43,900 --> 00:09:44,680
kind of ticking up

291
00:09:44,680 --> 00:09:45,240
as they were

292
00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:46,080
developing this thing,

293
00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:46,660
but it wasn't until

294
00:09:46,660 --> 00:09:47,340
they actually released

295
00:09:47,340 --> 00:09:47,880
it to the public,

296
00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:48,420
they started getting

297
00:09:48,420 --> 00:09:49,300
$1 of sales

298
00:09:49,300 --> 00:09:50,000
back on the deal,

299
00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:50,640
you know?

300
00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:51,060
Right.

301
00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:51,880
Yeah,

302
00:09:51,980 --> 00:09:53,560
and that highlights

303
00:09:53,560 --> 00:09:54,040
one thing

304
00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:55,120
when I was kind of

305
00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:56,640
writing up a piece

306
00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:57,080
on this

307
00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:58,120
that's troubling

308
00:09:58,120 --> 00:09:59,380
about wrapping ROI

309
00:09:59,380 --> 00:10:00,980
around a process

310
00:10:00,980 --> 00:10:01,960
or cultural change

311
00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:02,660
is like you said,

312
00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:03,320
it's over some

313
00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:04,220
period of time,

314
00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:04,740
right?

315
00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:05,280
Right.

316
00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:07,120
And picking that period

317
00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:07,620
of,

318
00:10:07,740 --> 00:10:09,540
I guess to fast forward

319
00:10:09,540 --> 00:10:10,040
to the end,

320
00:10:10,140 --> 00:10:10,980
all the variables,

321
00:10:11,260 --> 00:10:11,940
there's not that many

322
00:10:11,940 --> 00:10:12,620
of them that you input

323
00:10:12,620 --> 00:10:14,040
into an ROI calculation

324
00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:15,820
are hard to figure out

325
00:10:15,820 --> 00:10:17,660
in a process change,

326
00:10:17,700 --> 00:10:17,880
right?

327
00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:18,320
Right.

328
00:10:18,540 --> 00:10:19,680
And one of the harder ones

329
00:10:19,680 --> 00:10:21,040
is what's the boundary

330
00:10:21,040 --> 00:10:21,980
of time that you're

331
00:10:21,980 --> 00:10:22,500
going to judge?

332
00:10:22,820 --> 00:10:23,180
Exactly.

333
00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:23,880
And so,

334
00:10:24,020 --> 00:10:24,420
you know,

335
00:10:24,560 --> 00:10:25,700
so if you're going

336
00:10:25,700 --> 00:10:26,400
to be doing some sort

337
00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:27,640
of transformative

338
00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:29,560
corporate culture change

339
00:10:29,560 --> 00:10:30,200
to move this thing,

340
00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:30,640
you're saying it's going

341
00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:31,600
to take us two to three

342
00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:32,560
years to do this,

343
00:10:33,100 --> 00:10:33,900
measuring the ROI

344
00:10:33,900 --> 00:10:34,780
over the course

345
00:10:34,780 --> 00:10:35,380
of the first year

346
00:10:35,380 --> 00:10:36,120
is kind of ridiculous.

347
00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:36,560
Like,

348
00:10:36,580 --> 00:10:37,080
it just doesn't make

349
00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:37,640
any sense,

350
00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:37,920
right?

351
00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:38,800
Now,

352
00:10:38,860 --> 00:10:39,640
I would argue

353
00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:41,300
with DevOps,

354
00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:43,220
here's where I'll put

355
00:10:43,220 --> 00:10:44,020
on the finance hat

356
00:10:44,020 --> 00:10:44,220
and say,

357
00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:45,200
if what you're telling

358
00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:46,100
me is correct

359
00:10:46,100 --> 00:10:46,620
in the sense

360
00:10:46,620 --> 00:10:47,540
that this is a lot

361
00:10:47,540 --> 00:10:47,820
of,

362
00:10:48,180 --> 00:10:48,360
you know,

363
00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:49,000
kind of a path

364
00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:49,620
to more of an

365
00:10:49,620 --> 00:10:50,040
integration,

366
00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:52,000
theoretically,

367
00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:53,240
I would imagine

368
00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:53,820
you're stripping

369
00:10:53,820 --> 00:10:54,680
out costs

370
00:10:54,680 --> 00:10:55,740
as fast

371
00:10:55,740 --> 00:10:56,200
as you're putting

372
00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:56,660
them on.

373
00:10:57,460 --> 00:10:58,120
And so,

374
00:10:58,180 --> 00:10:58,620
it should be

375
00:10:58,620 --> 00:10:59,620
relatively net neutral.

376
00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:00,400
In other words,

377
00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:00,740
if I'm going

378
00:11:00,740 --> 00:11:01,120
to build

379
00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:01,500
a continuous

380
00:11:01,500 --> 00:11:02,520
integration platform,

381
00:11:03,100 --> 00:11:04,240
I would imagine

382
00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:05,540
you could build

383
00:11:05,540 --> 00:11:06,940
out a good

384
00:11:06,940 --> 00:11:08,480
scaffolding for that

385
00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:09,320
and call it

386
00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:10,540
three to four months,

387
00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:11,160
right?

388
00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:11,580
Yeah.

389
00:11:11,780 --> 00:11:12,460
And in the process

390
00:11:12,460 --> 00:11:13,220
of doing that,

391
00:11:13,380 --> 00:11:14,520
I should be

392
00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:15,780
requiring less,

393
00:11:15,860 --> 00:11:16,160
you know,

394
00:11:16,220 --> 00:11:16,860
help desk tickets

395
00:11:16,860 --> 00:11:17,500
get created,

396
00:11:17,500 --> 00:11:18,540
so my overtime

397
00:11:18,540 --> 00:11:19,700
for my support staff

398
00:11:19,700 --> 00:11:20,660
should be going down.

399
00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:21,840
I'll be,

400
00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:22,200
you know,

401
00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:24,160
if I'm virtualizing

402
00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:24,620
the servers,

403
00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:25,380
I'll be using less

404
00:11:25,380 --> 00:11:25,900
server space

405
00:11:25,900 --> 00:11:26,600
and hard drive space,

406
00:11:26,680 --> 00:11:27,000
so therefore,

407
00:11:27,140 --> 00:11:28,160
that should compress down.

408
00:11:28,500 --> 00:11:29,040
I should be able

409
00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:29,560
to kind of point

410
00:11:29,560 --> 00:11:30,260
to costs being

411
00:11:30,260 --> 00:11:30,980
stripped out

412
00:11:30,980 --> 00:11:32,560
on the back end

413
00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:33,460
and say,

414
00:11:33,660 --> 00:11:34,760
this is,

415
00:11:34,940 --> 00:11:35,200
you know,

416
00:11:35,300 --> 00:11:36,460
maybe not 100%

417
00:11:36,460 --> 00:11:38,040
directly related

418
00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:39,120
to this process,

419
00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:39,640
but it's at least

420
00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:40,540
correlated with it.

421
00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:41,440
And so,

422
00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:42,120
like,

423
00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:43,240
what's your commentary

424
00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:43,780
on, like,

425
00:11:43,820 --> 00:11:45,900
how the finance person

426
00:11:45,900 --> 00:11:46,680
thinks about

427
00:11:46,680 --> 00:11:48,580
the idea

428
00:11:48,580 --> 00:11:50,420
of saving money?

429
00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:51,420
Like you're saying,

430
00:11:51,500 --> 00:11:51,620
like,

431
00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:52,600
in the sense of

432
00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,080
we have less downtime

433
00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,060
and whenever we're down,

434
00:11:57,180 --> 00:11:57,820
that costs us

435
00:11:57,820 --> 00:11:59,160
X amount of dollars

436
00:11:59,160 --> 00:11:59,560
a minute.

437
00:11:59,700 --> 00:11:59,800
So,

438
00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:00,700
if we have less downtime,

439
00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:01,100
therefore,

440
00:12:01,220 --> 00:12:02,240
the ROI is this.

441
00:12:02,500 --> 00:12:02,660
Well,

442
00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:03,080
I think,

443
00:12:03,220 --> 00:12:03,940
you know,

444
00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:05,200
number one,

445
00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:05,840
I'll caveat this

446
00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:06,820
by saying there are

447
00:12:06,820 --> 00:12:08,240
good finance people

448
00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:08,680
and there are bad

449
00:12:08,680 --> 00:12:09,200
finance people,

450
00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:09,480
right?

451
00:12:09,580 --> 00:12:09,880
So,

452
00:12:10,020 --> 00:12:10,340
you know,

453
00:12:10,460 --> 00:12:11,660
it kind of depends

454
00:12:11,660 --> 00:12:12,440
on what organization

455
00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:12,960
you're in

456
00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:14,400
and what your,

457
00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:15,260
you know,

458
00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:16,180
what your organization

459
00:12:16,180 --> 00:12:17,160
is kind of calibrated to.

460
00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:18,100
You know,

461
00:12:18,260 --> 00:12:19,780
I've seen a lot of people

462
00:12:19,780 --> 00:12:20,540
and this is where I think

463
00:12:20,540 --> 00:12:22,400
that the developers

464
00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:24,240
and the ops guys

465
00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,140
interacting with the finance team,

466
00:12:26,620 --> 00:12:27,580
what that relationship

467
00:12:27,580 --> 00:12:28,160
kind of looks like

468
00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:29,720
as engineering people

469
00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:30,240
and as,

470
00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:31,000
you know,

471
00:12:31,260 --> 00:12:33,540
people dealing with code,

472
00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:35,800
you tend to value precision

473
00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:37,060
and you tend to value

474
00:12:37,060 --> 00:12:38,660
the ability to,

475
00:12:38,780 --> 00:12:38,960
you know,

476
00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:39,600
as I can say,

477
00:12:39,700 --> 00:12:41,040
the biggest thing I miss

478
00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:41,840
from my days

479
00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:42,480
as a developer

480
00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:43,580
coming into finance

481
00:12:43,580 --> 00:12:45,680
is the fact

482
00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:46,200
that I used to get

483
00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:46,780
instant feedback

484
00:12:46,780 --> 00:12:47,640
and now I get no,

485
00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:49,840
I get little to no feedback.

486
00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:50,320
Right, right.

487
00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:51,740
The only feedback you get

488
00:12:51,740 --> 00:12:52,800
is the occasional joy

489
00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:54,100
of a clever pivot table.

490
00:12:54,620 --> 00:12:54,980
No,

491
00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:55,400
it's not even,

492
00:12:55,460 --> 00:12:56,500
I'm not going to talk about that.

493
00:12:56,580 --> 00:12:57,180
I'm talking about,

494
00:12:57,300 --> 00:12:57,440
okay,

495
00:12:57,480 --> 00:12:58,620
so let's say we're dealing

496
00:12:58,620 --> 00:12:59,540
with high level strategy,

497
00:12:59,620 --> 00:12:59,860
right?

498
00:13:00,780 --> 00:13:01,520
Let's contrast it.

499
00:13:01,580 --> 00:13:02,300
So as a developer,

500
00:13:02,300 --> 00:13:03,060
you go through,

501
00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:04,040
you check out some code

502
00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:05,160
from the source control,

503
00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:05,920
you go through,

504
00:13:05,980 --> 00:13:06,660
you make your modifications,

505
00:13:06,820 --> 00:13:07,500
you implement your feature,

506
00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:08,980
you do some unit tests,

507
00:13:09,100 --> 00:13:10,300
your unit tests come back positive

508
00:13:10,300 --> 00:13:13,020
and that's all happening

509
00:13:13,020 --> 00:13:14,760
on a half hour

510
00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:15,520
to an hour basis,

511
00:13:15,620 --> 00:13:15,720
right?

512
00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:16,600
This is just constantly

513
00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:17,060
going on

514
00:13:17,060 --> 00:13:17,620
and you're constantly

515
00:13:17,620 --> 00:13:18,220
getting this feedback.

516
00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:19,000
Is the code working?

517
00:13:19,060 --> 00:13:19,600
Is it not working?

518
00:13:19,660 --> 00:13:19,800
Right?

519
00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:20,860
So then you do your unit test

520
00:13:20,860 --> 00:13:21,660
and you have your scaffolding

521
00:13:21,660 --> 00:13:22,840
and you check it back in

522
00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:24,340
and it goes into the,

523
00:13:24,460 --> 00:13:24,700
you know,

524
00:13:24,700 --> 00:13:25,800
to the release branch

525
00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:27,180
and then you guys do,

526
00:13:27,380 --> 00:13:27,860
if you're in a continuous

527
00:13:27,860 --> 00:13:28,500
integration environment,

528
00:13:28,620 --> 00:13:29,240
later that day,

529
00:13:29,300 --> 00:13:30,620
you do your automated release

530
00:13:30,620 --> 00:13:31,420
and you look

531
00:13:31,420 --> 00:13:32,800
and has anything blown up?

532
00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:33,160
No.

533
00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:34,040
Have all the unit tests

534
00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:34,680
come back positive?

535
00:13:34,900 --> 00:13:35,140
Yes.

536
00:13:35,220 --> 00:13:36,660
Is the user still checking

537
00:13:36,660 --> 00:13:37,380
into the application

538
00:13:37,380 --> 00:13:38,480
and checking out

539
00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:39,060
when they're signing out

540
00:13:39,060 --> 00:13:39,520
when they want to?

541
00:13:39,780 --> 00:13:40,100
Yes.

542
00:13:40,560 --> 00:13:40,800
Great.

543
00:13:41,020 --> 00:13:41,720
I did a great job.

544
00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:43,340
I know this worked,

545
00:13:43,940 --> 00:13:44,200
right?

546
00:13:44,680 --> 00:13:45,920
On the finance side,

547
00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:47,160
you go in

548
00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:48,440
and you get to your point,

549
00:13:48,580 --> 00:13:49,060
you sit there

550
00:13:49,060 --> 00:13:50,240
and you put together

551
00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:50,680
your reports

552
00:13:50,680 --> 00:13:51,580
and you gather your data

553
00:13:51,580 --> 00:13:53,100
and the data is always fuzzy

554
00:13:53,100 --> 00:13:53,720
because it's like,

555
00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:53,840
okay,

556
00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:53,960
well,

557
00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:55,320
this comes out of one system here

558
00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:55,920
and we're not,

559
00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:56,260
you know,

560
00:13:56,380 --> 00:13:57,640
booking the accrual for this

561
00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:58,880
until we get this piece of data

562
00:13:58,880 --> 00:13:59,580
from this other system

563
00:13:59,580 --> 00:14:00,620
and then we do this estimate

564
00:14:00,620 --> 00:14:01,440
and we lay it on top

565
00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:02,120
and that's what our final

566
00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:03,300
top line number looks like

567
00:14:03,300 --> 00:14:04,880
or that's what this account,

568
00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:06,080
you know,

569
00:14:06,780 --> 00:14:07,880
expense item looks like

570
00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:08,300
for this,

571
00:14:08,460 --> 00:14:09,140
for the entire company

572
00:14:09,140 --> 00:14:09,500
or whatever.

573
00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:11,120
Then you say,

574
00:14:11,260 --> 00:14:11,380
well,

575
00:14:11,420 --> 00:14:12,420
we're spending way too much

576
00:14:12,420 --> 00:14:13,660
on travel and entertainment.

577
00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:14,760
So we're going to implement

578
00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:16,560
a new report

579
00:14:16,560 --> 00:14:17,160
to track travel

580
00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:17,680
and entertainment.

581
00:14:17,940 --> 00:14:18,440
We're going to implement

582
00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:19,040
a new policy

583
00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:19,780
to manage travel

584
00:14:19,780 --> 00:14:20,240
and entertainment.

585
00:14:20,580 --> 00:14:21,500
We're going to move

586
00:14:21,500 --> 00:14:22,320
this person over

587
00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:23,280
to directly oversee

588
00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:24,340
and authorize travel

589
00:14:24,340 --> 00:14:25,240
and entertainment expenditures

590
00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:26,400
over $5,000,

591
00:14:26,460 --> 00:14:26,940
$10,000,

592
00:14:27,140 --> 00:14:27,760
whatever it is.

593
00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:28,400
Okay.

594
00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:29,900
So we've done all that.

595
00:14:30,060 --> 00:14:32,460
That takes three weeks

596
00:14:32,460 --> 00:14:33,000
to do,

597
00:14:33,140 --> 00:14:33,720
put in place,

598
00:14:33,780 --> 00:14:33,960
whatever,

599
00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:34,540
if you're working

600
00:14:34,540 --> 00:14:36,000
at a really high-performing,

601
00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:37,880
super agile company,

602
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:38,200
right?

603
00:14:38,260 --> 00:14:39,340
And how many of those

604
00:14:39,340 --> 00:14:39,960
are really out there?

605
00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:42,240
Then I have to wait

606
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:46,140
for not the next monthly results,

607
00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:47,120
but the monthly results

608
00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:47,600
after that

609
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:48,200
to even see

610
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:48,840
if that process

611
00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:49,960
has had any effect.

612
00:14:50,540 --> 00:14:51,220
And then I've got to wait

613
00:14:51,220 --> 00:14:51,660
another call

614
00:14:51,660 --> 00:14:52,660
at 60 to 90 days

615
00:14:52,660 --> 00:14:53,720
to see if that's a trend

616
00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:54,880
or if that's actually

617
00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,060
a just blip

618
00:14:57,060 --> 00:14:57,500
on the radar.

619
00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,020
So I've worked like mad.

620
00:15:01,140 --> 00:15:02,160
I've put in this place,

621
00:15:02,260 --> 00:15:03,300
I've put in this structure,

622
00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:04,560
I've emphasized

623
00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:05,400
all these things

624
00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:06,100
and put the right people

625
00:15:06,100 --> 00:15:06,840
in place or whatever.

626
00:15:07,340 --> 00:15:08,200
Most of that's not even

627
00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:09,020
really truly

628
00:15:09,020 --> 00:15:10,060
the finance person's call.

629
00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:11,020
It's just making recommendations

630
00:15:11,020 --> 00:15:12,020
and seeing if they get followed.

631
00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:13,360
And then I've got to wait

632
00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:14,000
three months

633
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:14,560
to figure out

634
00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:15,000
if what I did

635
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:15,840
was actually correct or not.

636
00:15:17,420 --> 00:15:18,500
And that's what I'm talking about,

637
00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:19,900
the lack of continuous feedback.

638
00:15:19,900 --> 00:15:22,260
Your feedback loop

639
00:15:22,260 --> 00:15:23,640
is mega long

640
00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,000
in comparison to development.

641
00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:27,220
In comparison to development,

642
00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:28,040
that's exactly right.

643
00:15:28,460 --> 00:15:31,500
So the point of all that

644
00:15:31,500 --> 00:15:34,080
is when you're dealing

645
00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:34,560
with this stuff

646
00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:35,540
at the finance side,

647
00:15:36,060 --> 00:15:38,360
you're looking for

648
00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:39,980
directionally right.

649
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:41,000
Am I moving

650
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:41,920
in the right direction

651
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:42,360
or am I moving

652
00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:43,100
in the wrong direction?

653
00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:43,900
So if I'm looking

654
00:15:43,900 --> 00:15:45,120
at this DevOps thing

655
00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:45,920
and trying to figure out

656
00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:47,580
if my ROI is actually

657
00:15:47,580 --> 00:15:48,320
well, first of all,

658
00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:49,340
once again,

659
00:15:49,420 --> 00:15:50,060
I wouldn't try

660
00:15:50,060 --> 00:15:50,880
and couch DevOps

661
00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:51,680
in terms of ROI.

662
00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:52,740
I'd want to couch it

663
00:15:52,740 --> 00:15:53,320
in terms of,

664
00:15:53,420 --> 00:15:55,040
look, I see this many metrics

665
00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:55,920
in terms of builds

666
00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:56,540
and cycles.

667
00:15:57,140 --> 00:15:58,220
These are our feature releases.

668
00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:00,420
And I want to look at it

669
00:16:00,420 --> 00:16:02,760
in terms of development

670
00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:04,100
and operation heads.

671
00:16:04,260 --> 00:16:04,840
How many heads

672
00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:05,260
it's taking me

673
00:16:05,260 --> 00:16:06,140
to deliver that stuff?

674
00:16:06,860 --> 00:16:08,080
And I'd want to look at,

675
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:09,560
really honestly,

676
00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:10,020
I'd want to look

677
00:16:10,020 --> 00:16:10,880
at my development expense.

678
00:16:11,020 --> 00:16:11,900
What's the developer,

679
00:16:12,340 --> 00:16:13,540
what's the cost center

680
00:16:13,540 --> 00:16:14,440
of development

681
00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:16,500
and operations look like?

682
00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:17,600
And if you're telling me

683
00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:18,180
that these two

684
00:16:18,180 --> 00:16:19,400
are now integrated

685
00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:19,920
and they're talking

686
00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:20,360
to each other,

687
00:16:20,740 --> 00:16:21,560
I theoretically kind of

688
00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:22,540
want to smash those together

689
00:16:22,540 --> 00:16:23,440
into one cost center

690
00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:24,420
and I want to say combined,

691
00:16:24,700 --> 00:16:25,860
what does that whole

692
00:16:25,860 --> 00:16:26,960
expenditure look like?

693
00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:29,240
And is that going,

694
00:16:29,420 --> 00:16:30,000
you know,

695
00:16:30,020 --> 00:16:31,000
larger or smaller

696
00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:31,900
relative to what

697
00:16:31,900 --> 00:16:32,460
revenue is doing?

698
00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:32,960
Right.

699
00:16:33,060 --> 00:16:34,300
So if I can summarize

700
00:16:34,300 --> 00:16:35,080
to this point,

701
00:16:35,140 --> 00:16:35,300
right?

702
00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,260
Because the thing

703
00:16:38,260 --> 00:16:39,400
that the old gray beard

704
00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:41,300
annoying sysadmin never does

705
00:16:41,300 --> 00:16:42,220
is tells you

706
00:16:42,220 --> 00:16:43,540
what you should be doing.

707
00:16:43,780 --> 00:16:44,320
He just tells you

708
00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:44,700
you're wrong

709
00:16:44,700 --> 00:16:45,320
and then moves on

710
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:45,900
with his life.

711
00:16:46,260 --> 00:16:46,580
Right.

712
00:16:46,940 --> 00:16:47,440
And then so,

713
00:16:47,500 --> 00:16:49,000
sorry,

714
00:16:49,100 --> 00:16:49,520
I just interrupted,

715
00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:50,700
but the original

716
00:16:50,700 --> 00:16:51,900
kind of reason

717
00:16:51,900 --> 00:16:53,160
for that whole digression

718
00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:55,080
is as the engineers,

719
00:16:55,140 --> 00:16:55,660
they want to come in

720
00:16:55,660 --> 00:16:55,880
and say,

721
00:16:55,940 --> 00:16:56,020
well,

722
00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:56,520
if I tell you

723
00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:57,020
I'm going to get you

724
00:16:57,020 --> 00:16:58,700
$1.75 in savings

725
00:16:58,700 --> 00:16:59,240
per,

726
00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:00,200
you know,

727
00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:02,340
I don't know,

728
00:17:02,420 --> 00:17:03,400
per development cycle,

729
00:17:03,620 --> 00:17:04,880
is that enough

730
00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:05,300
or should it be

731
00:17:05,300 --> 00:17:05,980
$1.85

732
00:17:05,980 --> 00:17:07,160
or should it be $1.95?

733
00:17:07,340 --> 00:17:08,180
And what I'm saying is,

734
00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:09,280
you know what,

735
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:10,540
let's just say

736
00:17:10,540 --> 00:17:11,340
if it's around $2,

737
00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:12,640
we'll call it a day

738
00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:14,020
and we're fine.

739
00:17:14,120 --> 00:17:14,460
And I think

740
00:17:14,460 --> 00:17:15,860
that's the conversation

741
00:17:15,860 --> 00:17:16,440
where it kind of

742
00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:17,140
breaks down a little bit

743
00:17:17,140 --> 00:17:17,580
because it's like,

744
00:17:17,660 --> 00:17:17,840
I don't,

745
00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:18,240
you know,

746
00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:19,340
the developers

747
00:17:19,340 --> 00:17:19,880
don't understand,

748
00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:20,920
I don't need the precision,

749
00:17:21,100 --> 00:17:22,120
I just need the direction.

750
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:23,960
And the finance guys

751
00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:24,220
are saying,

752
00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:25,060
you know,

753
00:17:25,700 --> 00:17:26,680
these people come to me

754
00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:27,480
with all this

755
00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:29,100
rigmarole about

756
00:17:29,100 --> 00:17:29,680
we're improving this

757
00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:30,460
and we're improving that

758
00:17:30,460 --> 00:17:31,680
and yet

759
00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:32,560
my,

760
00:17:32,700 --> 00:17:33,080
you know,

761
00:17:33,620 --> 00:17:35,120
general admin expenses

762
00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:35,940
keep going up

763
00:17:35,940 --> 00:17:36,720
month over month

764
00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:37,680
and so I'm not seeing it.

765
00:17:38,120 --> 00:17:38,460
Right, right.

766
00:17:38,540 --> 00:17:38,640
No,

767
00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:40,520
and so that gets

768
00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:42,440
to the next sort of

769
00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:43,600
like phase

770
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:44,280
which is,

771
00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:45,960
and I think

772
00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:47,640
you popped in my head

773
00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:48,180
an interesting way

774
00:17:48,180 --> 00:17:48,640
of looking at it.

775
00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:48,740
Like,

776
00:17:48,780 --> 00:17:49,260
so when you're talking

777
00:17:49,260 --> 00:17:50,200
with the finance people,

778
00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:50,780
to them,

779
00:17:51,380 --> 00:17:53,300
it's all like a black box

780
00:17:53,300 --> 00:17:54,040
essentially,

781
00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:54,620
right?

782
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:54,760
Yeah.

783
00:17:54,900 --> 00:17:56,380
And you can do

784
00:17:56,380 --> 00:17:57,200
whatever you want

785
00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:58,360
inside the black box

786
00:17:58,360 --> 00:17:59,540
and the only outputs

787
00:17:59,540 --> 00:18:00,940
that they really know about

788
00:18:00,940 --> 00:18:01,860
are sort of like

789
00:18:01,860 --> 00:18:02,600
what's the cost

790
00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:03,060
and how much

791
00:18:03,060 --> 00:18:03,860
is it making me

792
00:18:03,860 --> 00:18:04,280
essentially,

793
00:18:04,620 --> 00:18:04,820
right?

794
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:05,340
Exactly.

795
00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:06,820
And then so therefore

796
00:18:06,820 --> 00:18:07,820
if you want to change

797
00:18:07,820 --> 00:18:08,740
around the process

798
00:18:08,740 --> 00:18:09,220
that you do

799
00:18:09,220 --> 00:18:10,120
in the black box,

800
00:18:10,340 --> 00:18:10,560
right?

801
00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:11,240
And you go back,

802
00:18:11,340 --> 00:18:12,620
you go to the finance people

803
00:18:12,620 --> 00:18:13,020
and you're like,

804
00:18:13,460 --> 00:18:15,000
I need a million dollars

805
00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:15,780
and they're like,

806
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:16,600
why do you need

807
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:17,520
a million dollars?

808
00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:18,520
Right?

809
00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:19,980
And it's kind of like,

810
00:18:20,180 --> 00:18:20,320
well,

811
00:18:20,340 --> 00:18:21,400
because I'm going to do DevOps

812
00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:22,420
and that's going to cost me

813
00:18:22,420 --> 00:18:23,140
a million dollars

814
00:18:23,140 --> 00:18:24,580
in like hiring staff

815
00:18:24,580 --> 00:18:25,800
or maybe getting licenses

816
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:26,560
or,

817
00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:28,000
or time

818
00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:29,420
where we're not making money

819
00:18:29,420 --> 00:18:30,900
maybe that's a little fuzzier,

820
00:18:31,020 --> 00:18:31,340
but like,

821
00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:31,620
you know,

822
00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:32,360
and,

823
00:18:32,460 --> 00:18:32,760
and,

824
00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:33,640
and then so

825
00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:35,360
maybe it's,

826
00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:36,060
it's sort of like

827
00:18:36,060 --> 00:18:37,300
all you can really,

828
00:18:37,740 --> 00:18:38,340
the,

829
00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:39,840
the only sort of things

830
00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:40,660
you can converse

831
00:18:40,660 --> 00:18:41,760
between those two parties

832
00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:43,200
is this is either

833
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:44,820
going to lower our costs,

834
00:18:44,820 --> 00:18:45,380
right?

835
00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:46,080
Yes.

836
00:18:46,140 --> 00:18:47,180
By switching over to this

837
00:18:47,180 --> 00:18:49,620
or it's going to somehow

838
00:18:49,620 --> 00:18:51,380
make it so that we make

839
00:18:51,380 --> 00:18:51,960
more money,

840
00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:52,720
right?

841
00:18:52,820 --> 00:18:53,040
Which,

842
00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:54,200
which could sort of

843
00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:55,040
kind of be the same thing,

844
00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:55,520
but it's sort of

845
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:56,160
going to lower costs.

846
00:18:56,300 --> 00:18:56,460
So then,

847
00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:57,780
so they're not the same thing.

848
00:18:57,900 --> 00:18:58,160
Well,

849
00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:00,940
what I mean to say is,

850
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:02,160
for example,

851
00:19:02,220 --> 00:19:02,560
you might,

852
00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:03,900
you might lower,

853
00:19:04,120 --> 00:19:05,040
by speeding up,

854
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:06,100
you might lower the cost

855
00:19:06,100 --> 00:19:06,920
of like sitting around

856
00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:07,640
and doing nothing.

857
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:08,460
And then because you can

858
00:19:08,460 --> 00:19:08,880
speed up,

859
00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:10,040
you can do more output

860
00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:10,460
essentially.

861
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:10,960
I mean,

862
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:11,220
it's,

863
00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:12,740
it's a silly distinction,

864
00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:13,460
but.

865
00:19:13,580 --> 00:19:13,740
No,

866
00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:13,940
but,

867
00:19:13,940 --> 00:19:15,240
but to the,

868
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:16,340
the finance person,

869
00:19:16,380 --> 00:19:16,580
it's like,

870
00:19:16,620 --> 00:19:16,720
well,

871
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:17,480
but when I walk around,

872
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:18,100
you guys are all

873
00:19:18,100 --> 00:19:18,800
surfing the web

874
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:19,440
and answering questions

875
00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:20,480
on Stack Overflow anyway.

876
00:19:20,780 --> 00:19:21,660
So you don't need

877
00:19:21,660 --> 00:19:22,360
to be sped up.

878
00:19:22,620 --> 00:19:22,640
But,

879
00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:23,280
you know,

880
00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:23,780
exactly.

881
00:19:24,220 --> 00:19:24,420
So,

882
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:25,300
you know,

883
00:19:25,500 --> 00:19:26,280
that's the part

884
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,800
where it is,

885
00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:30,840
I think it is important

886
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:31,500
to kind of frame it.

887
00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:31,900
And the other thing

888
00:19:31,900 --> 00:19:32,520
I would say is,

889
00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:33,360
instead of coming in

890
00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:33,700
and saying,

891
00:19:33,860 --> 00:19:34,240
I need to spend

892
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:35,000
a million dollars,

893
00:19:35,100 --> 00:19:35,480
which you should be

894
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:36,080
coming in and saying,

895
00:19:36,180 --> 00:19:37,720
I need $10,000

896
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:39,120
for this site license

897
00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:39,760
and we're going to try

898
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:40,460
this out and we're

899
00:19:40,460 --> 00:19:40,880
going to do this

900
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:41,500
and I'll kind of roll it

901
00:19:41,500 --> 00:19:42,120
and you kind of just

902
00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:42,980
over time kind of

903
00:19:42,980 --> 00:19:43,680
roll it in,

904
00:19:43,740 --> 00:19:44,000
right?

905
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:45,460
If you try to just

906
00:19:45,460 --> 00:19:45,780
kind of say,

907
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:46,140
we're going to spend

908
00:19:46,140 --> 00:19:46,920
a big pot of money

909
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:47,640
and at the end of this

910
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:48,460
we're going to have something,

911
00:19:48,620 --> 00:19:48,740
I mean,

912
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:49,340
those are always,

913
00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:50,180
I mean,

914
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:50,820
number one,

915
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:51,440
it's not agile,

916
00:19:51,660 --> 00:19:51,840
right?

917
00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:52,340
And number two,

918
00:19:52,460 --> 00:19:53,000
that's what's always

919
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:53,660
going to prone to failure.

920
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:54,620
Right, right.

921
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:55,140
No,

922
00:19:55,260 --> 00:19:57,040
and so it seems like

923
00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:57,580
the point you want

924
00:19:57,580 --> 00:19:58,860
to get to with process change

925
00:19:58,860 --> 00:19:59,320
is,

926
00:19:59,540 --> 00:20:00,320
and I like the way

927
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:00,740
you were putting it

928
00:20:00,740 --> 00:20:01,000
at the beginning,

929
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:02,660
is you don't really talk

930
00:20:02,660 --> 00:20:03,660
about how the process

931
00:20:03,660 --> 00:20:04,580
is better or worse

932
00:20:04,580 --> 00:20:04,980
or whatever.

933
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:05,820
You just focus

934
00:20:05,820 --> 00:20:06,640
on the end result

935
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:07,600
that you're going to get

936
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:09,540
sort of revenue-wise

937
00:20:09,540 --> 00:20:10,400
and like saying,

938
00:20:10,860 --> 00:20:11,640
if we switch over

939
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:12,600
to doing it this way,

940
00:20:12,700 --> 00:20:14,160
we're going to end up

941
00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:15,600
with more revenue

942
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:16,680
or more savings,

943
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:17,180
right?

944
00:20:17,260 --> 00:20:17,860
Yes, yeah.

945
00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:19,560
And so it's almost like

946
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:20,740
if someone's asking you

947
00:20:20,740 --> 00:20:22,300
to do the ROI for DevOps,

948
00:20:23,180 --> 00:20:23,980
someone's asking you

949
00:20:23,980 --> 00:20:24,500
to do the ROI

950
00:20:24,500 --> 00:20:25,600
for the wrong thing,

951
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:26,420
right?

952
00:20:26,740 --> 00:20:27,260
They are.

953
00:20:27,460 --> 00:20:28,080
And the other thing too-

954
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:28,620
And instead,

955
00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:29,180
you might need,

956
00:20:29,300 --> 00:20:30,680
there's some other argument

957
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:31,460
that you need to make

958
00:20:31,460 --> 00:20:32,100
with them that

959
00:20:32,100 --> 00:20:33,480
doing what you're

960
00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:34,100
currently doing

961
00:20:34,100 --> 00:20:34,720
is worse

962
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:35,740
than if you're doing it

963
00:20:35,740 --> 00:20:36,500
in this new way.

964
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:38,180
That's exactly right.

965
00:20:38,340 --> 00:20:39,340
And so the other thing

966
00:20:39,340 --> 00:20:40,380
I think I would,

967
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:41,280
you know,

968
00:20:41,580 --> 00:20:42,480
really kind of make

969
00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:43,220
the case on

970
00:20:43,220 --> 00:20:45,000
is this,

971
00:20:45,140 --> 00:20:45,680
is that

972
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,600
there is

973
00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:49,980
a certain amount

974
00:20:49,980 --> 00:20:50,240
of,

975
00:20:50,540 --> 00:20:50,700
call it,

976
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:51,600
you know,

977
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:52,640
what it is called

978
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:53,740
maintenance capex,

979
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:54,160
right?

980
00:20:54,220 --> 00:20:55,220
Like the capital expenditures

981
00:20:55,220 --> 00:20:56,060
that are just to kind of

982
00:20:56,060 --> 00:20:57,580
maintain the status quo,

983
00:20:58,460 --> 00:20:58,740
right?

984
00:20:59,260 --> 00:21:00,100
Like if,

985
00:21:00,820 --> 00:21:01,000
you know,

986
00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:02,200
and maintenance expenses

987
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:02,720
as well.

988
00:21:02,820 --> 00:21:03,820
So if I've got,

989
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:04,200
you know,

990
00:21:04,260 --> 00:21:05,280
a team of three developers

991
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:06,220
working on a product

992
00:21:06,220 --> 00:21:08,620
and we release

993
00:21:08,620 --> 00:21:09,140
that product

994
00:21:09,140 --> 00:21:09,920
into the wild,

995
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,360
I still need to have

996
00:21:12,360 --> 00:21:13,500
developers on hand

997
00:21:13,500 --> 00:21:14,120
even though the product

998
00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:14,960
is already out in the market

999
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:15,720
and the reason why

1000
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:16,880
and not just to work

1001
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:17,600
on new features,

1002
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:18,640
not to work on the next version,

1003
00:21:18,780 --> 00:21:19,440
just to support

1004
00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:20,200
the current version.

1005
00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:20,500
I mean,

1006
00:21:20,540 --> 00:21:21,800
you've got desktop support

1007
00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:23,200
or you've got technical support

1008
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:24,320
or whatever on the back end

1009
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:25,180
and,

1010
00:21:25,300 --> 00:21:25,500
you know,

1011
00:21:25,540 --> 00:21:26,400
depending on the product level

1012
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:26,700
they're going to have

1013
00:21:26,700 --> 00:21:27,540
a certain level of complexity

1014
00:21:27,540 --> 00:21:28,880
and it might not be as high

1015
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:30,160
as the core development team

1016
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:31,520
but you can't just say

1017
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:32,240
we're not going to incur

1018
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:33,480
any more development cost

1019
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:34,320
because you've got to release

1020
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:35,700
upgrades to the current version

1021
00:21:35,700 --> 00:21:36,340
and you've got all

1022
00:21:36,340 --> 00:21:36,900
this other stuff,

1023
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:37,160
right?

1024
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:39,460
So to sit there and say

1025
00:21:39,460 --> 00:21:41,360
we're going to carve out

1026
00:21:41,360 --> 00:21:42,680
expenditures,

1027
00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:43,740
you know,

1028
00:21:43,860 --> 00:21:44,740
you can't drop that down

1029
00:21:44,740 --> 00:21:45,180
to zero.

1030
00:21:45,660 --> 00:21:47,000
There's an embedded cost

1031
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:47,740
associated with just having

1032
00:21:47,740 --> 00:21:48,260
a product.

1033
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:48,620
Yeah.

1034
00:21:49,220 --> 00:21:50,120
And that's the thing

1035
00:21:50,120 --> 00:21:51,160
that you've got to kind

1036
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:51,820
of make the case on

1037
00:21:51,820 --> 00:21:52,700
and so what I think

1038
00:21:52,700 --> 00:21:54,180
the case really made there

1039
00:21:54,180 --> 00:21:55,200
is we're lowering

1040
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,300
the ongoing costs

1041
00:21:57,300 --> 00:21:57,900
of this stuff.

1042
00:21:57,900 --> 00:21:58,520
Oh yeah,

1043
00:21:58,700 --> 00:21:59,640
that's good.

1044
00:21:59,960 --> 00:22:01,140
Now that's like a new handle

1045
00:22:01,140 --> 00:22:01,960
to focus on

1046
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,160
is that the future,

1047
00:22:05,140 --> 00:22:06,360
we'll just make it very simple,

1048
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:07,760
the future maintenance costs

1049
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:09,000
that will result

1050
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:10,420
from operating in this way

1051
00:22:10,420 --> 00:22:12,560
will be less than other ways.

1052
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:13,120
Yes.

1053
00:22:13,460 --> 00:22:15,380
And what you really focus on

1054
00:22:15,380 --> 00:22:16,360
that is the time frame

1055
00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:17,640
to go from here to there

1056
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:18,760
and what the metric is

1057
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:19,620
we're going to measure it on

1058
00:22:19,620 --> 00:22:19,980
and maybe,

1059
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:20,320
you know,

1060
00:22:20,340 --> 00:22:21,340
because here's the other

1061
00:22:21,340 --> 00:22:22,180
difficult part about this,

1062
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:22,980
especially in the circles

1063
00:22:22,980 --> 00:22:23,620
that, you know,

1064
00:22:23,660 --> 00:22:24,400
you're kind of running

1065
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:24,980
in with this

1066
00:22:24,980 --> 00:22:26,200
is your tip

1067
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:27,160
when you talk about,

1068
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:27,460
I mean,

1069
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:29,540
I always kind of laugh

1070
00:22:29,540 --> 00:22:31,100
at the other podcasts

1071
00:22:31,100 --> 00:22:32,440
you do with all

1072
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:33,180
of our other buddies

1073
00:22:33,180 --> 00:22:34,300
when you start talking

1074
00:22:34,300 --> 00:22:34,740
about,

1075
00:22:35,180 --> 00:22:35,640
you know,

1076
00:22:36,340 --> 00:22:37,620
this is a static company,

1077
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:38,640
it's slow growing,

1078
00:22:38,780 --> 00:22:38,980
it's this,

1079
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:39,120
that,

1080
00:22:39,180 --> 00:22:39,420
whatever,

1081
00:22:39,940 --> 00:22:40,640
and they're growing

1082
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:41,740
at like 10% a year.

1083
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:42,600
Okay.

1084
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:43,360
Exactly.

1085
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:44,380
Most companies

1086
00:22:44,380 --> 00:22:45,400
in the world

1087
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:46,060
do not grow

1088
00:22:46,060 --> 00:22:46,800
at 10% a year.

1089
00:22:46,900 --> 00:22:47,360
Most companies

1090
00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:47,780
would kill

1091
00:22:47,780 --> 00:22:48,940
for 10% a year growth,

1092
00:22:49,140 --> 00:22:50,460
but in the tech world

1093
00:22:50,460 --> 00:22:51,240
that's like anemic.

1094
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:52,220
It's like Microsoft,

1095
00:22:52,420 --> 00:22:52,540
I mean,

1096
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:53,000
they're dead.

1097
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:53,540
They're only growing

1098
00:22:53,540 --> 00:22:54,260
at 10% a year.

1099
00:22:54,500 --> 00:22:54,660
Right.

1100
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:54,960
You know,

1101
00:22:55,360 --> 00:22:56,460
you might as well

1102
00:22:56,460 --> 00:22:57,240
be selling aluminum

1103
00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:58,160
if you're at that rate

1104
00:22:58,160 --> 00:22:58,460
in the tech world.

1105
00:22:58,460 --> 00:22:58,740
Well,

1106
00:22:58,980 --> 00:22:59,620
yeah,

1107
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:00,240
but the reality

1108
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:00,960
is if you're selling aluminum

1109
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:01,400
you're growing

1110
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:02,440
at one and a half,

1111
00:23:02,500 --> 00:23:03,080
2% a year,

1112
00:23:03,140 --> 00:23:03,340
right?

1113
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:03,640
I mean,

1114
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:05,260
so that's the difference

1115
00:23:05,260 --> 00:23:06,700
and when you start

1116
00:23:06,700 --> 00:23:08,040
talking about compounding,

1117
00:23:08,120 --> 00:23:08,700
you're talking about

1118
00:23:08,700 --> 00:23:10,900
exponentially different numbers

1119
00:23:10,900 --> 00:23:13,160
and so that's the thing

1120
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:14,120
that I kind of,

1121
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:14,940
you know,

1122
00:23:15,260 --> 00:23:15,860
that makes this

1123
00:23:15,860 --> 00:23:16,340
very difficult

1124
00:23:16,340 --> 00:23:17,860
is if I'm a company

1125
00:23:17,860 --> 00:23:18,740
that's growing revenue

1126
00:23:18,740 --> 00:23:19,260
at 25,

1127
00:23:19,420 --> 00:23:20,040
30% a year

1128
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:20,540
because I've got

1129
00:23:20,540 --> 00:23:21,400
some hot product

1130
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:22,220
and I'm,

1131
00:23:22,700 --> 00:23:22,960
you know,

1132
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:25,040
and I don't do DevOps,

1133
00:23:25,980 --> 00:23:26,340
my,

1134
00:23:26,460 --> 00:23:26,720
you know,

1135
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:27,120
SG&A,

1136
00:23:27,180 --> 00:23:28,300
my general admin expenses

1137
00:23:28,300 --> 00:23:30,220
are going to be growing

1138
00:23:30,220 --> 00:23:31,360
even if I'm just

1139
00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:32,260
kind of standing still,

1140
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:33,280
they're going to be growing

1141
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:33,900
probably,

1142
00:23:34,140 --> 00:23:34,640
you know,

1143
00:23:34,780 --> 00:23:35,700
somewhat in line

1144
00:23:35,700 --> 00:23:36,620
with that revenue growth,

1145
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:37,560
right?

1146
00:23:37,940 --> 00:23:39,220
And if I do DevOps,

1147
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:40,300
they might be growing

1148
00:23:40,300 --> 00:23:41,440
at a much slower,

1149
00:23:41,820 --> 00:23:42,180
so let's say,

1150
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:42,760
so let's say

1151
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:44,120
in a non-DevOps world

1152
00:23:44,120 --> 00:23:44,780
you're growing

1153
00:23:44,780 --> 00:23:45,280
the top line

1154
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:45,740
at 30%,

1155
00:23:45,740 --> 00:23:46,240
you're growing revenue

1156
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:46,740
at 30%

1157
00:23:46,740 --> 00:23:47,380
and you're growing

1158
00:23:47,380 --> 00:23:48,240
SG&A at

1159
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:49,420
call it 15%,

1160
00:23:49,420 --> 00:23:50,200
all right?

1161
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:51,320
That's,

1162
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:52,760
for most companies

1163
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:54,740
is a killer situation

1164
00:23:54,740 --> 00:23:55,200
to be in

1165
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:56,020
because you're just generating

1166
00:23:56,020 --> 00:23:57,220
every year

1167
00:23:57,220 --> 00:23:58,140
massive and massive

1168
00:23:58,140 --> 00:23:58,780
amounts of cash

1169
00:23:58,780 --> 00:23:59,460
more and more

1170
00:23:59,460 --> 00:24:00,080
than you were generating

1171
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:00,560
the year before

1172
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:01,160
and you can use that

1173
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:01,960
to fund other stuff.

1174
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:02,900
Okay,

1175
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:04,440
if I do DevOps,

1176
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:05,140
let's say I only

1177
00:24:05,140 --> 00:24:06,200
knock that down

1178
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:07,140
to,

1179
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:07,860
or let's say

1180
00:24:07,860 --> 00:24:09,020
I knock it out of the park

1181
00:24:09,020 --> 00:24:09,740
and I knock that down

1182
00:24:09,740 --> 00:24:10,500
to 10% a year,

1183
00:24:10,580 --> 00:24:11,160
so I go from

1184
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:12,240
generating revenue

1185
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:12,920
at 30%

1186
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:13,740
and SG&A has only

1187
00:24:13,740 --> 00:24:14,700
grown at 10%,

1188
00:24:14,700 --> 00:24:15,260
right?

1189
00:24:15,340 --> 00:24:16,160
Versus the 15%

1190
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:17,000
it was growing at before.

1191
00:24:17,740 --> 00:24:18,740
The fact of the matter is

1192
00:24:18,740 --> 00:24:19,360
when the finance guy

1193
00:24:19,360 --> 00:24:19,780
is looking at it,

1194
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:20,020
he's like,

1195
00:24:20,100 --> 00:24:21,000
I'm not seeing any costs

1196
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:21,520
coming out.

1197
00:24:21,740 --> 00:24:21,840
Well,

1198
00:24:21,860 --> 00:24:22,280
of course you're not

1199
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:22,900
seeing any costs

1200
00:24:22,900 --> 00:24:23,440
coming out

1201
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:24,780
because SG&A is still

1202
00:24:24,780 --> 00:24:25,040
growing

1203
00:24:26,020 --> 00:24:26,480
and you have this

1204
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:27,100
massive product

1205
00:24:27,100 --> 00:24:27,640
that's still growing

1206
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:28,580
and we're still supporting it,

1207
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:29,720
but we're supporting it

1208
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:30,520
more efficiently

1209
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:31,440
than we would otherwise.

1210
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:32,180
Yeah,

1211
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:32,400
no,

1212
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:32,540
no,

1213
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:33,200
that makes sense

1214
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:33,840
and that's,

1215
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:34,180
that's,

1216
00:24:34,260 --> 00:24:35,020
that's,

1217
00:24:35,020 --> 00:24:35,260
you know,

1218
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:36,240
once again gets back

1219
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:37,280
to the argument

1220
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:38,160
that you need to make

1221
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:38,680
is,

1222
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:39,160
well,

1223
00:24:39,260 --> 00:24:39,760
I don't know,

1224
00:24:39,780 --> 00:24:39,940
I mean,

1225
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:40,200
I mean,

1226
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:41,360
tell me what you think

1227
00:24:41,360 --> 00:24:41,840
or have seen

1228
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:42,520
has been successful

1229
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:43,420
in cases like this

1230
00:24:43,420 --> 00:24:43,960
is that

1231
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:45,060
this,

1232
00:24:45,220 --> 00:24:46,620
this process works

1233
00:24:46,620 --> 00:24:47,860
and,

1234
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:48,820
and here,

1235
00:24:48,980 --> 00:24:50,100
and in my mind

1236
00:24:50,100 --> 00:24:50,640
what that means

1237
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:51,480
is you have to point

1238
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:52,360
to other examples

1239
00:24:52,360 --> 00:24:53,340
of that process

1240
00:24:53,340 --> 00:24:54,460
having worked with people.

1241
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:55,020
Right,

1242
00:24:55,100 --> 00:24:56,140
but from my understanding

1243
00:24:56,140 --> 00:24:57,520
the trouble is,

1244
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:58,620
is that it's very,

1245
00:24:58,840 --> 00:24:59,440
you know,

1246
00:24:59,820 --> 00:25:01,100
in the high flying,

1247
00:25:01,340 --> 00:25:01,780
high,

1248
00:25:02,060 --> 00:25:02,660
you know,

1249
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:03,940
dollar tech company.

1250
00:25:04,020 --> 00:25:04,120
So,

1251
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:04,400
you know,

1252
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:05,400
I assume companies

1253
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:05,880
like Facebook

1254
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:06,400
and Amazon

1255
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:07,180
are using DevOps

1256
00:25:07,180 --> 00:25:07,920
quite successfully,

1257
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:09,060
but,

1258
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:10,100
you know,

1259
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:10,620
maybe,

1260
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:12,240
I don't know

1261
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:12,640
that a company

1262
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:13,120
like IBM

1263
00:25:13,120 --> 00:25:13,540
necessarily

1264
00:25:13,540 --> 00:25:14,260
is using DevOps

1265
00:25:14,260 --> 00:25:14,780
successfully

1266
00:25:14,780 --> 00:25:15,320
or maybe they are

1267
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:16,160
and I just don't know,

1268
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:16,500
but,

1269
00:25:16,660 --> 00:25:16,900
you know,

1270
00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:19,180
it becomes very easy

1271
00:25:19,180 --> 00:25:19,480
to say,

1272
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:19,620
well,

1273
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:20,400
that works for them

1274
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:20,760
because they're

1275
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:21,100
different.

1276
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:22,200
They're in a special

1277
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:22,680
category,

1278
00:25:23,140 --> 00:25:23,380
right?

1279
00:25:23,820 --> 00:25:24,600
But for us,

1280
00:25:24,660 --> 00:25:24,820
I mean,

1281
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:25,120
if I,

1282
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:26,160
you know,

1283
00:25:26,740 --> 00:25:27,340
if I'm,

1284
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:28,100
I'm a Frisbee

1285
00:25:28,100 --> 00:25:28,700
manufacturer,

1286
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:30,160
do I really need DevOps?

1287
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:31,320
I mean,

1288
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:32,160
it's just not part of my,

1289
00:25:32,380 --> 00:25:33,240
IT's not part of my

1290
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:33,920
core competency.

1291
00:25:34,420 --> 00:25:34,920
It's not something

1292
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:36,200
I really truly care about.

1293
00:25:36,660 --> 00:25:37,780
Why do I need this?

1294
00:25:37,900 --> 00:25:38,920
And my response

1295
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:39,800
to that would be,

1296
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,860
you know,

1297
00:25:41,940 --> 00:25:42,400
kind of the

1298
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:43,180
Marc Andreessen

1299
00:25:43,180 --> 00:25:44,320
response is,

1300
00:25:44,820 --> 00:25:45,640
every company

1301
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:46,700
needs IT.

1302
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:48,100
It's now become

1303
00:25:48,100 --> 00:25:48,860
an integral part

1304
00:25:48,860 --> 00:25:49,520
of everything,

1305
00:25:50,060 --> 00:25:50,400
you know?

1306
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:52,140
And so,

1307
00:25:52,700 --> 00:25:53,380
if you're going

1308
00:25:53,380 --> 00:25:54,260
to have IT at all,

1309
00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:55,300
you probably need

1310
00:25:55,300 --> 00:25:55,700
to have something

1311
00:25:55,700 --> 00:25:56,200
like this.

1312
00:25:56,500 --> 00:25:56,500
So,

1313
00:25:57,020 --> 00:25:58,320
so what are,

1314
00:25:58,420 --> 00:25:59,200
what are like

1315
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:00,860
analogs of other

1316
00:26:00,860 --> 00:26:02,500
processes or best

1317
00:26:02,500 --> 00:26:03,600
practices that sort

1318
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:04,340
of like become

1319
00:26:04,340 --> 00:26:05,500
enshrined as like,

1320
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:06,180
you should do

1321
00:26:06,180 --> 00:26:06,980
things that way,

1322
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:07,480
right?

1323
00:26:08,060 --> 00:26:08,260
Like,

1324
00:26:08,260 --> 00:26:09,540
because the situation

1325
00:26:09,540 --> 00:26:10,080
is like,

1326
00:26:10,620 --> 00:26:11,200
it's,

1327
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:11,760
it's the typical

1328
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:12,800
that's fine for Merlin

1329
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:13,280
problem,

1330
00:26:13,580 --> 00:26:13,760
right?

1331
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:14,020
Right,

1332
00:26:14,020 --> 00:26:14,200
right,

1333
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:14,420
right.

1334
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:14,600
Like,

1335
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:14,840
you know,

1336
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:15,460
that's great

1337
00:26:15,460 --> 00:26:15,980
for all those

1338
00:26:15,980 --> 00:26:16,900
unicorns or whatever,

1339
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:17,260
but,

1340
00:26:17,380 --> 00:26:18,420
but we can't do

1341
00:26:18,420 --> 00:26:18,680
that.

1342
00:26:18,740 --> 00:26:19,140
So it doesn't

1343
00:26:19,140 --> 00:26:19,660
apply to us.

1344
00:26:19,700 --> 00:26:20,500
And yet there

1345
00:26:20,500 --> 00:26:21,300
are other practices

1346
00:26:21,300 --> 00:26:22,780
like you probably

1347
00:26:22,780 --> 00:26:23,320
shouldn't have

1348
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:24,080
free beer at your

1349
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:24,480
company.

1350
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:25,400
That's just not

1351
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:26,540
a sound policy.

1352
00:26:26,860 --> 00:26:27,720
You know,

1353
00:26:27,780 --> 00:26:28,380
there's sort of

1354
00:26:28,380 --> 00:26:29,120
like accepted

1355
00:26:29,120 --> 00:26:29,840
things that are

1356
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:30,480
unquestioned

1357
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:31,360
that are processing

1358
00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:32,180
culture wise.

1359
00:26:32,340 --> 00:26:33,440
And how do

1360
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:33,820
those things

1361
00:26:33,820 --> 00:26:34,500
become so?

1362
00:26:34,860 --> 00:26:35,180
That's the

1363
00:26:35,180 --> 00:26:35,700
difficult part,

1364
00:26:35,780 --> 00:26:35,920
right?

1365
00:26:35,980 --> 00:26:36,300
So they,

1366
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:37,060
they,

1367
00:26:37,460 --> 00:26:38,360
sometimes they

1368
00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:39,060
become so just

1369
00:26:39,060 --> 00:26:39,820
because of

1370
00:26:39,820 --> 00:26:40,420
inertia,

1371
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:41,100
right?

1372
00:26:41,260 --> 00:26:41,660
And,

1373
00:26:41,780 --> 00:26:42,660
and sometimes

1374
00:26:42,660 --> 00:26:43,020
they,

1375
00:26:43,820 --> 00:26:44,060
you know,

1376
00:26:44,060 --> 00:26:44,500
as we like

1377
00:26:44,500 --> 00:26:45,180
to laugh

1378
00:26:45,180 --> 00:26:45,760
about the

1379
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:46,220
management

1380
00:26:46,220 --> 00:26:46,660
consultants,

1381
00:26:46,740 --> 00:26:47,380
the ivory tower

1382
00:26:47,380 --> 00:26:48,040
coined a phrase

1383
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:48,720
and put together

1384
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:49,040
a PowerPoint

1385
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:49,740
presentation and

1386
00:26:49,740 --> 00:26:50,240
they take over

1387
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:50,600
the world.

1388
00:26:51,340 --> 00:26:52,220
So I think

1389
00:26:52,220 --> 00:26:52,520
another,

1390
00:26:52,660 --> 00:26:52,760
I mean,

1391
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:53,240
like on the

1392
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:54,240
manufacturing side,

1393
00:26:54,340 --> 00:26:55,060
you have the,

1394
00:26:55,060 --> 00:26:55,420
you know,

1395
00:26:55,420 --> 00:26:56,280
the six sigma,

1396
00:26:56,940 --> 00:26:57,860
the GE six sigma

1397
00:26:57,860 --> 00:26:59,800
stuff and like lean

1398
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:00,740
manufacturing and the

1399
00:27:00,740 --> 00:27:02,300
Toyota just in time

1400
00:27:02,300 --> 00:27:03,280
systems and stuff.

1401
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:03,620
Oh yeah,

1402
00:27:03,620 --> 00:27:04,060
those are good

1403
00:27:04,060 --> 00:27:04,780
analogs.

1404
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:05,260
Yeah.

1405
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:06,020
And so the,

1406
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:06,320
you know,

1407
00:27:06,340 --> 00:27:08,320
but those are

1408
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:09,340
cases where you

1409
00:27:09,340 --> 00:27:09,640
can,

1410
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:10,440
what you point

1411
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,720
to is the

1412
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:13,860
increase in the

1413
00:27:13,860 --> 00:27:14,540
operating margin

1414
00:27:14,540 --> 00:27:15,160
of the company.

1415
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:15,900
So we were

1416
00:27:15,900 --> 00:27:16,940
operating at a,

1417
00:27:16,940 --> 00:27:17,420
you know,

1418
00:27:17,500 --> 00:27:18,740
15% operating

1419
00:27:18,740 --> 00:27:19,420
margin and now

1420
00:27:19,420 --> 00:27:19,700
we're at an

1421
00:27:19,700 --> 00:27:20,380
18% operating

1422
00:27:20,380 --> 00:27:21,020
margin is because

1423
00:27:21,020 --> 00:27:21,640
we're taking out

1424
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:22,080
all this,

1425
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:22,580
you know,

1426
00:27:23,140 --> 00:27:23,860
all this waste.

1427
00:27:24,340 --> 00:27:24,740
Right.

1428
00:27:25,180 --> 00:27:26,160
And so DevOps,

1429
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:26,580
I think would be

1430
00:27:26,580 --> 00:27:27,080
the same kind of

1431
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:27,340
thing,

1432
00:27:27,420 --> 00:27:27,840
which is,

1433
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:28,060
okay,

1434
00:27:28,060 --> 00:27:28,840
over time,

1435
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:29,600
if I look at,

1436
00:27:29,740 --> 00:27:30,360
you know,

1437
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:31,920
if I look at what

1438
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:33,260
our development costs

1439
00:27:33,260 --> 00:27:34,060
are to deliver

1440
00:27:34,060 --> 00:27:35,560
a release,

1441
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:36,620
they've gone down

1442
00:27:36,620 --> 00:27:37,000
dramatically.

1443
00:27:37,060 --> 00:27:37,420
If I look at the

1444
00:27:37,420 --> 00:27:38,240
time to deliver a

1445
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:38,440
release,

1446
00:27:38,500 --> 00:27:38,880
those have gone

1447
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:39,520
down dramatically.

1448
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:40,980
Now that,

1449
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:41,480
you know,

1450
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:42,040
once again,

1451
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:42,960
you have to still

1452
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:43,740
have a good strategy.

1453
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:44,300
Like in other words,

1454
00:27:44,420 --> 00:27:44,560
I,

1455
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:46,260
my,

1456
00:27:46,260 --> 00:27:46,460
my,

1457
00:27:46,540 --> 00:27:47,080
my favorite

1458
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:48,240
kind of idiot

1459
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:49,920
example is I can

1460
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:50,520
have a business

1461
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:51,520
where I sell,

1462
00:27:51,660 --> 00:27:52,420
you know,

1463
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:54,380
$10 bills for

1464
00:27:54,380 --> 00:27:55,040
five bucks

1465
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:56,400
and I will generate

1466
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:57,280
so much sales.

1467
00:27:57,340 --> 00:27:57,700
It'll make your

1468
00:27:57,700 --> 00:27:57,960
head.

1469
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:00,240
But at the end

1470
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:00,520
of the day,

1471
00:28:00,540 --> 00:28:01,080
it's the stupid

1472
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:01,720
business model,

1473
00:28:01,820 --> 00:28:02,060
right?

1474
00:28:02,140 --> 00:28:02,880
So if,

1475
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:04,180
if I have a

1476
00:28:04,180 --> 00:28:05,800
development strategy

1477
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:06,620
that's putting in

1478
00:28:06,620 --> 00:28:07,080
place features

1479
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:08,240
that nobody cares

1480
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:08,600
about,

1481
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:09,660
I don't really care

1482
00:28:09,660 --> 00:28:10,200
what my cost

1483
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:10,880
to deliver is.

1484
00:28:11,420 --> 00:28:11,520
Right.

1485
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:11,900
You know,

1486
00:28:12,260 --> 00:28:12,960
and so you always

1487
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:13,460
kind of got to

1488
00:28:13,460 --> 00:28:14,040
balance that.

1489
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:15,420
But I think

1490
00:28:15,420 --> 00:28:15,700
at the end

1491
00:28:15,700 --> 00:28:16,180
of the day,

1492
00:28:16,260 --> 00:28:16,720
you've got to

1493
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:17,080
point to the

1494
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:18,100
DevOps is about

1495
00:28:18,100 --> 00:28:18,860
the operational

1496
00:28:18,860 --> 00:28:19,420
metrics.

1497
00:28:19,420 --> 00:28:20,680
It's not about

1498
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:22,180
a return on

1499
00:28:22,180 --> 00:28:22,960
investment in

1500
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:24,060
off of a

1501
00:28:24,060 --> 00:28:24,800
conference or

1502
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:25,180
a return on

1503
00:28:25,180 --> 00:28:25,620
investment off

1504
00:28:25,620 --> 00:28:26,500
of a software

1505
00:28:26,500 --> 00:28:26,880
license.

1506
00:28:27,140 --> 00:28:27,600
And so,

1507
00:28:27,940 --> 00:28:28,680
I mean,

1508
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:30,080
in a sort

1509
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:30,480
of like

1510
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:31,120
intellectually

1511
00:28:31,120 --> 00:28:32,160
gun to head

1512
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:32,920
situation where

1513
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:33,320
you have to

1514
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:34,040
like decide

1515
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:34,620
between two

1516
00:28:34,620 --> 00:28:35,440
things that

1517
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:35,880
you don't want

1518
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:36,200
to like,

1519
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:36,880
do you think

1520
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:38,000
generally like

1521
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:38,580
it's best to

1522
00:28:38,580 --> 00:28:39,480
focus on

1523
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,160
reducing costs,

1524
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:42,440
eliminating waste,

1525
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:43,240
to put it another

1526
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:43,520
way?

1527
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:43,860
Like,

1528
00:28:43,900 --> 00:28:44,200
is that,

1529
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:45,000
does that sort

1530
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:45,860
of always win

1531
00:28:45,860 --> 00:28:46,620
if you position

1532
00:28:46,620 --> 00:28:47,320
things that way?

1533
00:28:47,740 --> 00:28:48,840
it depends on

1534
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:49,220
the company

1535
00:28:49,220 --> 00:28:49,700
culture,

1536
00:28:50,020 --> 00:28:51,020
it depends on

1537
00:28:51,020 --> 00:28:51,500
a lot of

1538
00:28:51,500 --> 00:28:51,660
things.

1539
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:52,140
I would say

1540
00:28:52,140 --> 00:28:52,400
this,

1541
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:53,140
I would say

1542
00:28:53,140 --> 00:28:57,340
most executive

1543
00:28:57,340 --> 00:28:58,420
management teams

1544
00:28:58,420 --> 00:29:00,820
really respond

1545
00:29:00,820 --> 00:29:02,260
to sales

1546
00:29:02,260 --> 00:29:04,020
because most,

1547
00:29:04,580 --> 00:29:05,060
I don't want to

1548
00:29:05,060 --> 00:29:05,220
say that,

1549
00:29:05,300 --> 00:29:05,540
that's probably

1550
00:29:05,540 --> 00:29:05,980
a wrong thing

1551
00:29:05,980 --> 00:29:06,200
to say,

1552
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:07,160
a good chunk

1553
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:07,780
of CEOs

1554
00:29:07,780 --> 00:29:08,560
came through

1555
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:08,980
sales.

1556
00:29:09,300 --> 00:29:09,740
They're customer

1557
00:29:09,740 --> 00:29:10,120
facing.

1558
00:29:10,580 --> 00:29:10,660
Right.

1559
00:29:10,700 --> 00:29:11,080
It's all about,

1560
00:29:11,180 --> 00:29:11,900
and their strategies

1561
00:29:11,900 --> 00:29:12,420
are always customer

1562
00:29:12,420 --> 00:29:12,720
facing.

1563
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:13,140
The things they

1564
00:29:13,140 --> 00:29:13,700
worry about are

1565
00:29:13,700 --> 00:29:14,300
customer facing.

1566
00:29:14,300 --> 00:29:19,020
Most CFOs

1567
00:29:19,020 --> 00:29:20,060
I think probably

1568
00:29:20,060 --> 00:29:20,760
tend to be more

1569
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:21,280
operational.

1570
00:29:21,460 --> 00:29:21,740
They tend to be

1571
00:29:21,740 --> 00:29:22,480
more cost focused

1572
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:23,840
just because of

1573
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:24,420
once again,

1574
00:29:24,500 --> 00:29:25,020
kind of corporate

1575
00:29:25,020 --> 00:29:25,940
inertia and

1576
00:29:25,940 --> 00:29:26,980
historical context

1577
00:29:26,980 --> 00:29:28,640
of what the CFO

1578
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:29,440
role has kind of

1579
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:30,180
morphed over time

1580
00:29:30,180 --> 00:29:30,940
to be more

1581
00:29:30,940 --> 00:29:32,200
strategic than

1582
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:32,580
it has been in

1583
00:29:32,580 --> 00:29:32,840
the past,

1584
00:29:32,900 --> 00:29:33,280
but in the past

1585
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:33,680
it used to be

1586
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:34,400
very much an

1587
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:35,080
accounting function.

1588
00:29:35,260 --> 00:29:35,560
What are our

1589
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:35,880
numbers?

1590
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:36,480
How do they

1591
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:36,940
kind of roll?

1592
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:40,940
So I would

1593
00:29:40,940 --> 00:29:41,560
say coming in

1594
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:42,080
and getting

1595
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:43,140
approval,

1596
00:29:44,300 --> 00:29:44,980
to do something,

1597
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:46,140
you're focusing

1598
00:29:46,140 --> 00:29:46,820
on cost is

1599
00:29:46,820 --> 00:29:47,500
probably a good

1600
00:29:47,500 --> 00:29:47,720
thing.

1601
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:48,220
If you're trying

1602
00:29:48,220 --> 00:29:48,780
to do whole

1603
00:29:48,780 --> 00:29:49,500
cultural changes,

1604
00:29:49,580 --> 00:29:50,240
focusing on sales

1605
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:50,620
is probably the

1606
00:29:50,620 --> 00:29:51,100
better way to go.

1607
00:29:51,460 --> 00:29:51,480
Right.

1608
00:29:51,620 --> 00:29:52,640
Which is to

1609
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:53,980
say your

1610
00:29:53,980 --> 00:29:56,100
what do you

1611
00:29:56,100 --> 00:29:56,400
call it?

1612
00:29:56,820 --> 00:29:57,220
Stereotypical,

1613
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:58,280
your archetype

1614
00:29:58,280 --> 00:29:58,900
of the CEO

1615
00:29:58,900 --> 00:29:59,300
there.

1616
00:29:59,680 --> 00:29:59,960
Yes.

1617
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:00,580
They'll be

1618
00:30:00,580 --> 00:30:01,120
focused on

1619
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:01,560
growth.

1620
00:30:02,180 --> 00:30:03,140
They want to

1621
00:30:03,140 --> 00:30:03,740
get more and

1622
00:30:03,740 --> 00:30:04,220
more new

1623
00:30:04,220 --> 00:30:05,080
sales and new

1624
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:05,700
money coming

1625
00:30:05,700 --> 00:30:05,980
right.

1626
00:30:06,540 --> 00:30:07,160
Whereas the

1627
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:08,160
CFO is very

1628
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:09,080
focused on what

1629
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:09,440
we would call

1630
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:09,860
the bottom

1631
00:30:09,860 --> 00:30:10,600
line that is

1632
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:11,280
reducing the

1633
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:12,080
cost of things.

1634
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:12,640
Right.

1635
00:30:12,780 --> 00:30:13,200
And so I

1636
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:14,100
would say from

1637
00:30:14,100 --> 00:30:14,800
a pitch

1638
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:15,320
standpoint,

1639
00:30:15,540 --> 00:30:16,080
trying to get

1640
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:16,660
buy-in,

1641
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:18,180
the focus

1642
00:30:18,180 --> 00:30:19,160
for DevOps

1643
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:20,520
for pitching

1644
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:20,980
to the CFO

1645
00:30:20,980 --> 00:30:21,500
would be time

1646
00:30:21,500 --> 00:30:21,920
to delivery,

1647
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:22,280
time to

1648
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:22,540
market.

1649
00:30:23,740 --> 00:30:23,820
Right.

1650
00:30:24,140 --> 00:30:24,480
And then for

1651
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:25,060
the CFO,

1652
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:26,240
it would be

1653
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:26,740
kind of

1654
00:30:26,740 --> 00:30:27,880
essentially

1655
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,060
cost per

1656
00:30:30,060 --> 00:30:30,880
release cycle.

1657
00:30:31,140 --> 00:30:31,380
Right.

1658
00:30:31,700 --> 00:30:32,740
Just a

1659
00:30:32,740 --> 00:30:33,660
lean pitch.

1660
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:34,840
What we're

1661
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:35,400
doing is

1662
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:35,880
there's a lot

1663
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:36,820
of waste

1664
00:30:36,820 --> 00:30:37,120
in the

1665
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:37,720
system and

1666
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:37,960
we're

1667
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:38,380
removing

1668
00:30:38,380 --> 00:30:39,040
that waste.

1669
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:40,080
that waste

1670
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:40,560
may be

1671
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:41,300
operational,

1672
00:30:41,660 --> 00:30:41,880
it might

1673
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:42,680
be

1674
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:43,660
literal

1675
00:30:43,660 --> 00:30:44,800
licenses or

1676
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:45,220
costs that

1677
00:30:45,220 --> 00:30:45,640
we have,

1678
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:47,620
but someone

1679
00:30:47,620 --> 00:30:48,260
in this

1680
00:30:48,260 --> 00:30:48,880
archetypical

1681
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:49,280
CFO

1682
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:49,640
example,

1683
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:50,280
they understand

1684
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:50,900
the value

1685
00:30:50,900 --> 00:30:51,500
of removing

1686
00:30:51,500 --> 00:30:52,920
waste and

1687
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:53,780
tend to

1688
00:30:53,780 --> 00:30:54,360
value that.

1689
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:54,900
Yeah.

1690
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:55,500
Yeah.

1691
00:30:56,380 --> 00:30:56,700
And,

1692
00:30:56,820 --> 00:30:57,140
you know,

1693
00:30:57,180 --> 00:30:57,820
so the

1694
00:30:57,820 --> 00:31:02,580
other thing

1695
00:31:02,580 --> 00:31:03,000
I would say

1696
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:03,460
to that

1697
00:31:03,460 --> 00:31:04,780
is at

1698
00:31:04,780 --> 00:31:04,980
the end

1699
00:31:04,980 --> 00:31:05,180
of the

1700
00:31:05,180 --> 00:31:05,540
day,

1701
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:06,260
most

1702
00:31:06,260 --> 00:31:06,840
companies

1703
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:07,620
have a

1704
00:31:07,620 --> 00:31:07,860
corporate

1705
00:31:07,860 --> 00:31:08,320
budget,

1706
00:31:08,780 --> 00:31:08,980
right?

1707
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:09,260
I mean,

1708
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:09,780
and so

1709
00:31:09,780 --> 00:31:09,960
at the

1710
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:10,180
beginning

1711
00:31:10,180 --> 00:31:10,480
of the

1712
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:10,760
year,

1713
00:31:10,860 --> 00:31:11,280
beginning

1714
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:12,020
of the

1715
00:31:12,020 --> 00:31:12,260
quarter

1716
00:31:12,260 --> 00:31:12,700
or beginning

1717
00:31:12,700 --> 00:31:12,940
of the

1718
00:31:12,940 --> 00:31:13,200
month

1719
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:13,520
or whatever,

1720
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:13,840
you kind

1721
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:14,020
of say,

1722
00:31:14,100 --> 00:31:14,320
I'm going

1723
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:14,820
to spend

1724
00:31:14,820 --> 00:31:15,680
roughly X

1725
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:15,860
amount

1726
00:31:15,860 --> 00:31:16,300
of dollars,

1727
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:16,840
right?

1728
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:18,620
And so

1729
00:31:18,620 --> 00:31:20,020
if I'm

1730
00:31:20,020 --> 00:31:20,480
kind of in

1731
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:21,040
charge of

1732
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:21,820
the ops

1733
00:31:21,820 --> 00:31:22,540
budget

1734
00:31:22,540 --> 00:31:24,100
and kind

1735
00:31:24,100 --> 00:31:24,540
of to

1736
00:31:24,540 --> 00:31:25,000
where I'm

1737
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:25,120
going to

1738
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:25,440
spend my

1739
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:25,900
dollars and

1740
00:31:25,900 --> 00:31:26,160
everything,

1741
00:31:26,380 --> 00:31:27,060
what I

1742
00:31:27,060 --> 00:31:27,460
would focus

1743
00:31:27,460 --> 00:31:27,780
on is,

1744
00:31:27,900 --> 00:31:27,980
look,

1745
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:28,340
I've got

1746
00:31:28,340 --> 00:31:28,800
the options

1747
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:29,080
to spend

1748
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:29,320
it on

1749
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:29,900
this thing

1750
00:31:29,900 --> 00:31:30,400
or this

1751
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:30,820
thing,

1752
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:31,740
and this

1753
00:31:31,740 --> 00:31:32,020
thing is

1754
00:31:32,020 --> 00:31:32,500
more optimal

1755
00:31:32,500 --> 00:31:33,120
because it

1756
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:33,460
will lower

1757
00:31:33,460 --> 00:31:33,920
my release

1758
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:34,200
time,

1759
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:34,640
it will do

1760
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:34,860
this,

1761
00:31:34,900 --> 00:31:35,200
it will do

1762
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:35,500
that,

1763
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:35,920
you know?

1764
00:31:36,820 --> 00:31:37,540
And the

1765
00:31:37,540 --> 00:31:37,860
thing a lot

1766
00:31:37,860 --> 00:31:39,080
people don't

1767
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:39,920
really pay

1768
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:41,160
enough attention

1769
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:41,360
to,

1770
00:31:41,420 --> 00:31:41,720
I think,

1771
00:31:41,900 --> 00:31:43,500
is the

1772
00:31:43,500 --> 00:31:43,740
actual

1773
00:31:43,740 --> 00:31:44,420
validation

1774
00:31:44,420 --> 00:31:45,140
of the

1775
00:31:45,140 --> 00:31:45,460
fact that

1776
00:31:45,460 --> 00:31:45,560
it's

1777
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:46,000
working or

1778
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:46,220
not.

1779
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:46,720
You know,

1780
00:31:46,780 --> 00:31:47,240
and as I

1781
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:47,640
like to

1782
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:47,880
say,

1783
00:31:48,500 --> 00:31:49,280
you know,

1784
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:50,180
it's fine

1785
00:31:50,180 --> 00:31:51,300
if you,

1786
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:52,840
you know,

1787
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:53,240
it's fine

1788
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:53,540
if you want

1789
00:31:53,540 --> 00:31:53,780
to sit there

1790
00:31:53,780 --> 00:31:54,080
and tell me

1791
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:54,380
I've got

1792
00:31:54,380 --> 00:31:54,880
to spend

1793
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:55,520
more to

1794
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:56,180
hire this

1795
00:31:56,180 --> 00:31:56,880
person who's

1796
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:57,220
an ops

1797
00:31:57,220 --> 00:31:57,720
person with

1798
00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:58,140
development

1799
00:31:58,140 --> 00:31:58,720
experience because

1800
00:31:58,720 --> 00:31:59,040
we're going

1801
00:31:59,040 --> 00:31:59,440
to DevOps

1802
00:31:59,440 --> 00:31:59,720
and I need

1803
00:31:59,720 --> 00:31:59,980
people with

1804
00:31:59,980 --> 00:32:00,600
coding experience

1805
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:01,020
now and I

1806
00:32:01,020 --> 00:32:01,340
used to just

1807
00:32:01,340 --> 00:32:01,820
only need

1808
00:32:01,820 --> 00:32:02,500
sysadmins,

1809
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:03,140
right?

1810
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:04,200
Well,

1811
00:32:04,340 --> 00:32:04,820
that's all

1812
00:32:04,820 --> 00:32:05,140
well and

1813
00:32:05,140 --> 00:32:05,780
good but

1814
00:32:05,780 --> 00:32:06,280
you've also

1815
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:06,740
got a team

1816
00:32:06,740 --> 00:32:07,420
of sysadmins

1817
00:32:07,420 --> 00:32:08,220
over here so

1818
00:32:08,220 --> 00:32:08,860
if you're not

1819
00:32:08,860 --> 00:32:09,180
going to,

1820
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:09,640
if you're telling

1821
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:10,080
me that these

1822
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:10,720
guys are coming

1823
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:11,160
in and they're

1824
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:11,380
going to make

1825
00:32:11,380 --> 00:32:11,720
this whole thing

1826
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:12,440
leaner then why

1827
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:13,160
am I not seeing

1828
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:13,700
any of these

1829
00:32:13,700 --> 00:32:14,940
guys moving

1830
00:32:14,940 --> 00:32:15,260
into some

1831
00:32:15,260 --> 00:32:15,740
other position

1832
00:32:15,740 --> 00:32:16,640
or moving

1833
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:16,840
to some

1834
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:17,280
other department

1835
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:18,460
or moving

1836
00:32:18,460 --> 00:32:18,720
to some

1837
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:19,620
other company?

1838
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:21,660
Like that's,

1839
00:32:21,740 --> 00:32:22,280
and I know

1840
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,100
that it's kind

1841
00:32:24,100 --> 00:32:24,540
of a,

1842
00:32:24,540 --> 00:32:25,800
I don't know,

1843
00:32:26,260 --> 00:32:27,380
a scary thing

1844
00:32:27,380 --> 00:32:27,760
to have to

1845
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:28,700
address sometimes

1846
00:32:28,700 --> 00:32:29,480
but the reality

1847
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:30,560
is you don't

1848
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:31,100
just get to add

1849
00:32:31,100 --> 00:32:31,740
costs and not

1850
00:32:31,740 --> 00:32:32,300
take costs out

1851
00:32:32,300 --> 00:32:32,700
somewhere.

1852
00:32:33,260 --> 00:32:33,320
Right,

1853
00:32:33,380 --> 00:32:33,560
right,

1854
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:33,820
right.

1855
00:32:34,020 --> 00:32:34,240
Right.

1856
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:35,280
So.

1857
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:36,160
Yeah,

1858
00:32:36,260 --> 00:32:37,620
and that's

1859
00:32:37,620 --> 00:32:39,540
another issue

1860
00:32:39,540 --> 00:32:40,900
in the circles

1861
00:32:40,900 --> 00:32:41,460
I run in

1862
00:32:41,460 --> 00:32:42,080
as you say

1863
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:43,680
is the split

1864
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:44,340
between the new

1865
00:32:44,340 --> 00:32:44,860
way of doing

1866
00:32:44,860 --> 00:32:45,600
stuff and the

1867
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:46,140
old way of

1868
00:32:46,140 --> 00:32:46,740
doing stuff.

1869
00:32:47,300 --> 00:32:47,500
Yeah.

1870
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:48,520
And how

1871
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,160
as whoever,

1872
00:32:51,580 --> 00:32:52,320
whatever team

1873
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:52,720
or whatever

1874
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:53,460
person is sitting

1875
00:32:53,460 --> 00:32:54,000
on top of

1876
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:54,820
both of those

1877
00:32:54,820 --> 00:32:56,480
silos of

1878
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:57,160
excitement,

1879
00:32:57,540 --> 00:32:57,720
right?

1880
00:32:58,200 --> 00:32:58,360
Yeah.

1881
00:32:58,360 --> 00:32:59,440
Like there

1882
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:00,120
are finite

1883
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:01,100
resources of

1884
00:33:01,100 --> 00:33:01,520
time,

1885
00:33:01,700 --> 00:33:01,900
money,

1886
00:33:02,060 --> 00:33:02,680
and priorities

1887
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:03,200
and all

1888
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:03,780
your usual

1889
00:33:03,780 --> 00:33:04,360
corporate

1890
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:05,200
planning stuff

1891
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:06,100
and sort

1892
00:33:06,100 --> 00:33:06,500
of like how

1893
00:33:06,500 --> 00:33:07,140
you allocate

1894
00:33:07,140 --> 00:33:07,800
those finite

1895
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:08,580
resources over

1896
00:33:08,580 --> 00:33:09,020
those two

1897
00:33:09,020 --> 00:33:09,500
things and

1898
00:33:09,500 --> 00:33:10,020
think about

1899
00:33:10,020 --> 00:33:11,120
the opportunity

1900
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:11,760
lost or

1901
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:12,400
gained by

1902
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:13,480
focusing on

1903
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:13,760
the new

1904
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:14,200
stuff or

1905
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:14,900
optimizing the

1906
00:33:14,900 --> 00:33:15,340
old stuff

1907
00:33:15,340 --> 00:33:15,700
or vice

1908
00:33:15,700 --> 00:33:16,060
versa.

1909
00:33:16,460 --> 00:33:16,680
Right.

1910
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:17,440
Which is a

1911
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:17,980
totally different

1912
00:33:17,980 --> 00:33:18,400
thing than

1913
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:18,760
ROI.

1914
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:20,100
Yeah.

1915
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:21,080
But it's

1916
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,200
that strategic

1917
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:23,840
question of

1918
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:24,360
like how

1919
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:25,160
much should

1920
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:25,800
I be spending

1921
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:26,380
on the new

1922
00:33:26,380 --> 00:33:26,920
way of doing

1923
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:28,320
stuff but yet

1924
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:28,920
maintaining the

1925
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:29,440
old way of

1926
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:30,100
doing things

1927
00:33:30,100 --> 00:33:30,800
or what?

1928
00:33:31,340 --> 00:33:31,680
So you

1929
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:31,940
want to

1930
00:33:31,940 --> 00:33:32,420
know the

1931
00:33:32,420 --> 00:33:33,920
beyond the

1932
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:34,680
ROI question

1933
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:35,100
because I

1934
00:33:35,100 --> 00:33:35,520
think the

1935
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,340
core launching

1936
00:33:37,340 --> 00:33:37,840
point for this

1937
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:38,640
conversation was

1938
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:39,020
okay so how

1939
00:33:39,020 --> 00:33:39,460
do I make my

1940
00:33:39,460 --> 00:33:39,840
finance people

1941
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:40,260
happy?

1942
00:33:41,020 --> 00:33:41,220
Right.

1943
00:33:41,620 --> 00:33:42,260
And I can

1944
00:33:42,260 --> 00:33:42,920
tell you from

1945
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:43,660
my experience

1946
00:33:43,660 --> 00:33:44,220
how you make

1947
00:33:44,220 --> 00:33:45,180
you know the

1948
00:33:45,180 --> 00:33:45,880
most of the

1949
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:46,400
finance people I

1950
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:46,800
kind of run

1951
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:47,260
with happy.

1952
00:33:47,940 --> 00:33:48,840
You tell them

1953
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:49,260
what's going to

1954
00:33:49,260 --> 00:33:50,260
happen before

1955
00:33:50,260 --> 00:33:51,040
it happens.

1956
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:52,840
And if you do

1957
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:53,540
that well

1958
00:33:53,540 --> 00:33:55,260
you're probably

1959
00:33:55,260 --> 00:33:55,760
okay.

1960
00:33:55,940 --> 00:33:56,320
And if you do

1961
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:56,920
that poorly

1962
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:58,060
you're not

1963
00:33:58,060 --> 00:33:58,440
okay.

1964
00:33:59,000 --> 00:33:59,420
And what I

1965
00:33:59,420 --> 00:33:59,860
mean by that

1966
00:33:59,860 --> 00:34:01,900
is okay I'm

1967
00:34:01,900 --> 00:34:02,480
going to spend

1968
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:03,280
this pocket of

1969
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:04,300
money on DevOps

1970
00:34:04,300 --> 00:34:06,100
stuff and I'm

1971
00:34:06,100 --> 00:34:06,820
retooling my

1972
00:34:06,820 --> 00:34:07,740
team to be more

1973
00:34:07,740 --> 00:34:08,600
DevOps oriented

1974
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:09,760
and I'm going to

1975
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:10,660
run an

1976
00:34:10,660 --> 00:34:11,760
incremental higher

1977
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:12,240
amount of

1978
00:34:12,240 --> 00:34:12,980
expenses over

1979
00:34:12,980 --> 00:34:13,460
call it the next

1980
00:34:13,460 --> 00:34:13,900
three or four

1981
00:34:13,900 --> 00:34:14,500
months while we

1982
00:34:14,500 --> 00:34:14,780
do this

1983
00:34:14,780 --> 00:34:16,440
transformation and

1984
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:17,000
then the costs

1985
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:17,660
will drop off

1986
00:34:17,660 --> 00:34:18,120
because we're not

1987
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:18,700
doing the training

1988
00:34:18,700 --> 00:34:19,280
we're not putting

1989
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:19,720
in the software

1990
00:34:19,720 --> 00:34:20,460
licenses we're not

1991
00:34:20,460 --> 00:34:21,020
doing this and

1992
00:34:21,020 --> 00:34:21,520
we're stripping

1993
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:22,120
out stuff.

1994
00:34:23,020 --> 00:34:24,480
So we had a

1995
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:25,240
team of five

1996
00:34:25,240 --> 00:34:25,700
people that were

1997
00:34:25,700 --> 00:34:26,200
running this.

1998
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:26,720
You will see

1999
00:34:26,720 --> 00:34:27,240
over the next

2000
00:34:27,240 --> 00:34:27,860
year that run

2001
00:34:27,860 --> 00:34:28,400
down to three

2002
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:29,680
people you we

2003
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:30,920
had this much

2004
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:31,320
we were paying

2005
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:31,840
in licensing

2006
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:32,340
expenses.

2007
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:33,160
We're not going

2008
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:34,260
to pay we're

2009
00:34:34,260 --> 00:34:34,540
going to pay

2010
00:34:34,540 --> 00:34:35,100
some sub

2011
00:34:35,100 --> 00:34:35,700
percentage of

2012
00:34:35,700 --> 00:34:36,540
that less

2013
00:34:36,540 --> 00:34:38,160
starting in six

2014
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:38,620
months because

2015
00:34:38,620 --> 00:34:38,940
we'll have

2016
00:34:38,940 --> 00:34:39,400
rolled off the

2017
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:39,780
old system

2018
00:34:39,780 --> 00:34:40,240
onto the new

2019
00:34:40,240 --> 00:34:40,620
system.

2020
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:41,260
Right.

2021
00:34:41,660 --> 00:34:42,340
And if and

2022
00:34:42,340 --> 00:34:43,000
if you're off

2023
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:43,400
like let's

2024
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:43,760
say you said

2025
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:44,020
it's going to

2026
00:34:44,020 --> 00:34:44,540
happen in six

2027
00:34:44,540 --> 00:34:45,180
months and you

2028
00:34:45,180 --> 00:34:45,580
get to month

2029
00:34:45,580 --> 00:34:46,280
three and you

2030
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:46,720
realize it's

2031
00:34:46,720 --> 00:34:47,140
going to happen

2032
00:34:47,140 --> 00:34:47,460
in month

2033
00:34:47,460 --> 00:34:48,680
seven you come

2034
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:49,020
to them in

2035
00:34:49,020 --> 00:34:49,720
month three and

2036
00:34:49,720 --> 00:34:50,160
you say hey

2037
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:50,600
it's not going

2038
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:51,060
to happen in

2039
00:34:51,060 --> 00:34:51,620
month six it's

2040
00:34:51,620 --> 00:34:51,880
going to happen

2041
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:52,560
in month seven and

2042
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:53,180
here's why

2043
00:34:53,180 --> 00:34:53,960
and here's

2044
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:54,640
why I'm not

2045
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:55,240
concerned about

2046
00:34:55,240 --> 00:34:55,440
it.

2047
00:34:56,140 --> 00:34:56,500
Okay.

2048
00:34:56,740 --> 00:34:57,720
Or you come

2049
00:34:57,720 --> 00:34:58,140
in in month

2050
00:34:58,140 --> 00:34:58,900
three and you

2051
00:34:58,900 --> 00:34:59,960
say hey I

2052
00:34:59,960 --> 00:35:00,440
thought this was

2053
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:00,760
going to happen

2054
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:01,740
in a month six.

2055
00:35:02,860 --> 00:35:03,740
It's not happening

2056
00:35:03,740 --> 00:35:04,200
at all.

2057
00:35:04,820 --> 00:35:05,300
We need to kill

2058
00:35:05,300 --> 00:35:05,800
this thing.

2059
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:06,220
Right.

2060
00:35:06,300 --> 00:35:06,760
We need to stop

2061
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:07,240
it and we need

2062
00:35:07,240 --> 00:35:07,600
to stop the

2063
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:08,520
bleeding and this

2064
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:09,140
whole thing was

2065
00:35:09,140 --> 00:35:09,860
was a mistake

2066
00:35:09,860 --> 00:35:10,540
and we here's

2067
00:35:10,540 --> 00:35:11,000
what we learned

2068
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:11,460
and here's how

2069
00:35:11,460 --> 00:35:11,780
we're going to

2070
00:35:11,780 --> 00:35:12,160
fix it.

2071
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:13,280
Right.

2072
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:14,060
If you're having

2073
00:35:14,060 --> 00:35:14,780
those conversations

2074
00:35:14,780 --> 00:35:15,440
and you're giving

2075
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:16,100
them enough lead

2076
00:35:16,100 --> 00:35:17,140
time to react

2077
00:35:17,140 --> 00:35:19,480
you're probably

2078
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:20,080
going to get a

2079
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:20,960
lot farther than

2080
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:21,480
just we're doing

2081
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:22,300
DevOps and I

2082
00:35:22,300 --> 00:35:22,620
need a million

2083
00:35:22,620 --> 00:35:24,160
dollars and then

2084
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:24,880
six months later

2085
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:25,480
it's like well

2086
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:26,180
where's my savings

2087
00:35:26,180 --> 00:35:26,620
while we're still

2088
00:35:26,620 --> 00:35:27,160
doing DevOps.

2089
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:28,280
It's going to be

2090
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:28,700
awesome.

2091
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:29,540
Yeah.

2092
00:35:30,140 --> 00:35:31,040
I mean and I

2093
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:31,920
and once again

2094
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:32,540
the world is

2095
00:35:32,540 --> 00:35:33,180
fuzzy and the

2096
00:35:33,180 --> 00:35:33,800
world is messy

2097
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:35,140
and and things

2098
00:35:35,140 --> 00:35:36,320
don't work out

2099
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:36,820
the way you

2100
00:35:36,820 --> 00:35:37,900
planned 100%

2101
00:35:37,900 --> 00:35:38,620
of the time and

2102
00:35:38,620 --> 00:35:39,360
I think everyone

2103
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,200
realizes that but

2104
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:42,320
if you're honest

2105
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:43,340
with yourself and

2106
00:35:43,340 --> 00:35:43,720
then you turn

2107
00:35:43,720 --> 00:35:44,060
around and be

2108
00:35:44,060 --> 00:35:44,460
honest with

2109
00:35:44,460 --> 00:35:45,260
everybody else

2110
00:35:45,260 --> 00:35:46,820
nine times out

2111
00:35:46,820 --> 00:35:47,520
of ten that's

2112
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:48,160
going to take

2113
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:48,440
you where you

2114
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:48,840
need to go.

2115
00:35:49,260 --> 00:35:49,400
Yeah.

2116
00:35:49,540 --> 00:35:50,460
No I think I

2117
00:35:50,460 --> 00:35:51,080
think that's the

2118
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:52,600
I mean it's I

2119
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:52,840
don't know if

2120
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:53,800
it's ironic but

2121
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:54,280
it but it's

2122
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:55,180
delightfully ironic

2123
00:35:55,180 --> 00:35:56,060
in that the

2124
00:35:56,060 --> 00:35:57,920
the origin of

2125
00:35:57,920 --> 00:35:58,900
doing like agile

2126
00:35:58,900 --> 00:35:59,560
or lean or

2127
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:00,240
DevOps or all

2128
00:36:00,240 --> 00:36:00,800
this stuff is

2129
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:01,740
often like the

2130
00:36:01,740 --> 00:36:02,500
future is very

2131
00:36:02,500 --> 00:36:03,800
unpredictable so

2132
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:04,360
we need to have

2133
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:05,460
small batches to

2134
00:36:05,460 --> 00:36:06,260
study and

2135
00:36:06,260 --> 00:36:07,060
triangulate and

2136
00:36:07,060 --> 00:36:07,360
get more

2137
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:08,520
information and

2138
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:09,220
then it's like a

2139
00:36:09,220 --> 00:36:09,900
comforting and

2140
00:36:09,900 --> 00:36:10,660
then typically you

2141
00:36:10,660 --> 00:36:11,020
think of the

2142
00:36:11,020 --> 00:36:11,900
finance people as

2143
00:36:11,900 --> 00:36:12,820
not that right

2144
00:36:12,820 --> 00:36:13,820
but but in

2145
00:36:13,820 --> 00:36:15,160
fact at least

2146
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:16,100
in the you

2147
00:36:16,100 --> 00:36:16,880
know in

2148
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:17,680
in in in the

2149
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:18,640
happy version of

2150
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:19,160
the world like

2151
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:19,840
the finance people

2152
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:20,540
are just like hey

2153
00:36:20,540 --> 00:36:21,020
I just want to

2154
00:36:21,020 --> 00:36:21,440
make sure you're

2155
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:22,140
being responsible

2156
00:36:22,140 --> 00:36:22,880
and we're talking

2157
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:24,300
right right like

2158
00:36:24,300 --> 00:36:25,100
that there's not

2159
00:36:25,100 --> 00:36:26,120
like crazy stuff

2160
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:26,920
happening that

2161
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:27,440
that we hear

2162
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:28,100
about way too

2163
00:36:28,100 --> 00:36:29,020
late and that

2164
00:36:29,020 --> 00:36:30,080
was correct and

2165
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:30,680
we get a chance

2166
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:31,760
to like work on

2167
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:32,380
stuff which

2168
00:36:32,380 --> 00:36:33,500
matches well with

2169
00:36:33,500 --> 00:36:33,960
the original

2170
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:34,580
intentions.

2171
00:36:35,060 --> 00:36:36,060
Yeah and so

2172
00:36:36,060 --> 00:36:36,580
you know I

2173
00:36:36,580 --> 00:36:38,340
worked on a

2174
00:36:38,340 --> 00:36:39,320
project a while

2175
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:40,540
back that was

2176
00:36:40,540 --> 00:36:41,040
you know a six

2177
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:41,740
month project that

2178
00:36:41,740 --> 00:36:42,040
we were doing

2179
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:42,600
this implementation

2180
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:43,020
and some stuff

2181
00:36:43,020 --> 00:36:43,520
or whatever and

2182
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:44,140
we had consultants

2183
00:36:44,140 --> 00:36:46,420
coming in and

2184
00:36:46,420 --> 00:36:47,080
about you know

2185
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:47,580
we were tracking

2186
00:36:47,580 --> 00:36:48,140
well ahead of

2187
00:36:48,140 --> 00:36:49,060
budget all along

2188
00:36:49,060 --> 00:36:50,140
the way and

2189
00:36:50,140 --> 00:36:51,320
then and let's

2190
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:51,800
just say let's

2191
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:52,120
just say it was

2192
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:52,860
month three I

2193
00:36:52,860 --> 00:36:53,920
came in and I

2194
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:55,160
was sat down

2195
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:55,900
with the person

2196
00:36:55,900 --> 00:36:56,900
I was the person

2197
00:36:56,900 --> 00:36:57,560
was kind of in

2198
00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:58,600
charge of spending

2199
00:36:58,600 --> 00:36:59,340
the money and I

2200
00:36:59,340 --> 00:37:00,900
said hey look we

2201
00:37:00,900 --> 00:37:01,440
have been tracking

2202
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:02,000
ahead of schedule

2203
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:02,660
and had a budget

2204
00:37:02,660 --> 00:37:03,460
all along the way

2205
00:37:03,460 --> 00:37:04,940
here I'm going to

2206
00:37:04,940 --> 00:37:05,780
tell you right now

2207
00:37:05,780 --> 00:37:07,280
this month you're

2208
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:07,640
going to start

2209
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:08,360
seeing us racking

2210
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:09,020
up a bunch of

2211
00:37:09,020 --> 00:37:10,320
hours and we're

2212
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:10,720
going to start

2213
00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:11,480
slipping back

2214
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:13,040
below you know

2215
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:14,700
above our budget

2216
00:37:14,700 --> 00:37:15,540
expenditures on this

2217
00:37:15,540 --> 00:37:16,200
deal and we're

2218
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:16,500
going to start

2219
00:37:16,500 --> 00:37:16,980
racking up more

2220
00:37:16,980 --> 00:37:17,400
hours and it's

2221
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:17,740
going to look

2222
00:37:17,740 --> 00:37:18,120
like we're not

2223
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:18,920
making progress we

2224
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:19,500
are at a point

2225
00:37:19,500 --> 00:37:20,160
in time on this

2226
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:21,140
project where at

2227
00:37:21,140 --> 00:37:21,660
the implementation

2228
00:37:21,660 --> 00:37:22,700
it's kind of

2229
00:37:22,700 --> 00:37:23,020
reaching its

2230
00:37:23,020 --> 00:37:23,800
inflection point

2231
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:25,160
and after we get

2232
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:25,760
through call it the

2233
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:26,500
next three weeks

2234
00:37:26,500 --> 00:37:27,240
all we're going to

2235
00:37:27,240 --> 00:37:27,860
be doing is

2236
00:37:27,860 --> 00:37:28,860
validation and so

2237
00:37:28,860 --> 00:37:29,160
what you're going

2238
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:29,740
to see is the

2239
00:37:29,740 --> 00:37:30,340
consultant hours are

2240
00:37:30,340 --> 00:37:30,900
going to drop way

2241
00:37:30,900 --> 00:37:31,380
off because I

2242
00:37:31,380 --> 00:37:31,880
don't need them

2243
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:33,660
anymore and it's

2244
00:37:33,660 --> 00:37:34,240
just going to be us

2245
00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:34,900
cranking on making

2246
00:37:34,900 --> 00:37:35,460
sure all the data

2247
00:37:35,460 --> 00:37:35,840
is coming through

2248
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:37,140
correctly you know

2249
00:37:37,140 --> 00:37:38,400
but you're going

2250
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:38,800
to look at the

2251
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:39,600
project tracking

2252
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:40,720
you know mechanisms

2253
00:37:40,720 --> 00:37:41,400
we put in place

2254
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:41,800
and you're going to

2255
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:42,480
see that we're

2256
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:43,420
we're spending a lot

2257
00:37:43,420 --> 00:37:44,060
more than you think

2258
00:37:44,060 --> 00:37:44,720
we should be and

2259
00:37:44,720 --> 00:37:46,580
this is why so I'm

2260
00:37:46,580 --> 00:37:47,000
just giving you a

2261
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:48,460
heads up everything's

2262
00:37:48,460 --> 00:37:49,640
fine if it's not

2263
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:50,200
fine I'll let you

2264
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:52,140
know and you know

2265
00:37:52,140 --> 00:37:53,100
honestly we did

2266
00:37:53,100 --> 00:37:53,860
exactly what I said

2267
00:37:53,860 --> 00:37:55,020
and everybody was

2268
00:37:55,020 --> 00:37:56,200
fine you know

2269
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,300
it but it's it's a

2270
00:37:59,300 --> 00:38:00,160
function of giving

2271
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:00,740
everybody advance

2272
00:38:00,740 --> 00:38:01,260
warning and the

2273
00:38:01,260 --> 00:38:01,700
function of you

2274
00:38:01,700 --> 00:38:02,460
trying to really

2275
00:38:02,460 --> 00:38:03,640
understand what

2276
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:07,080
drives the the

2277
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:08,220
DevOps I mean

2278
00:38:08,220 --> 00:38:08,640
not that I was

2279
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:09,280
doing DevOps but

2280
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:10,320
it would drive that

2281
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:11,380
conversion and what

2282
00:38:11,380 --> 00:38:11,860
should that conversion

2283
00:38:11,860 --> 00:38:12,940
look like and I

2284
00:38:12,940 --> 00:38:14,280
would push back on

2285
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:15,740
you know not that I

2286
00:38:15,740 --> 00:38:16,520
want to side with

2287
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:17,120
finance on everything

2288
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:17,620
here but I would

2289
00:38:17,620 --> 00:38:18,260
push back on the

2290
00:38:18,260 --> 00:38:18,880
ops teams that are

2291
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:19,460
kind of like well

2292
00:38:19,460 --> 00:38:20,340
how do I how do I

2293
00:38:20,340 --> 00:38:20,900
sell this how do I

2294
00:38:20,900 --> 00:38:22,960
do this part of it

2295
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:24,660
might be I'm just

2296
00:38:24,660 --> 00:38:26,820
you know speaking to

2297
00:38:26,820 --> 00:38:28,300
archetypes here you

2298
00:38:28,300 --> 00:38:29,420
might not truly

2299
00:38:29,420 --> 00:38:30,320
understand what this

2300
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:31,400
process should look

2301
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:32,120
like and so you're

2302
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:32,560
having trouble

2303
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:33,380
explaining you don't

2304
00:38:33,380 --> 00:38:33,920
understand it well

2305
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:34,860
enough to simplify it

2306
00:38:34,860 --> 00:38:35,660
for someone who's not

2307
00:38:35,660 --> 00:38:36,240
coming from this

2308
00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:37,020
world right

2309
00:38:37,020 --> 00:38:37,660
and if that's the

2310
00:38:37,660 --> 00:38:38,320
case you might want

2311
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:38,840
to dig a little

2312
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:40,140
deeper and say how

2313
00:38:40,140 --> 00:38:41,680
do I really truly make

2314
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:42,420
sure I have a handle

2315
00:38:42,420 --> 00:38:44,180
on this yeah now that

2316
00:38:44,180 --> 00:38:45,160
makes sense well I

2317
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:45,620
think that's a good

2318
00:38:45,620 --> 00:38:46,540
place to leave off

2319
00:38:46,540 --> 00:38:47,200
unless you have

2320
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:47,720
anything else you

2321
00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:48,360
wanted to throw out

2322
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,120
there no I don't I

2323
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:51,020
I'm not sure we

2324
00:38:51,020 --> 00:38:51,500
actually answered the

2325
00:38:51,500 --> 00:38:51,940
original question

2326
00:38:51,940 --> 00:38:52,420
which is how do I

2327
00:38:52,420 --> 00:38:53,540
calculate ROI but

2328
00:38:53,540 --> 00:38:54,500
thankfully I started

2329
00:38:54,500 --> 00:38:55,260
off saying there is

2330
00:38:55,260 --> 00:38:56,200
no answer because

2331
00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:57,100
it's a bad question

2332
00:38:57,100 --> 00:38:59,480
so we come back

2333
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,300
around but but but

2334
00:39:01,300 --> 00:39:02,740
I think I think I

2335
00:39:02,740 --> 00:39:03,040
think I think I

2336
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:03,740
think what's helpful

2337
00:39:03,740 --> 00:39:04,480
right like like

2338
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:05,240
whenever whenever

2339
00:39:05,240 --> 00:39:06,000
there's a situation

2340
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:07,160
where there's it's

2341
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:08,740
it's a bad question

2342
00:39:08,740 --> 00:39:09,840
with no answer then

2343
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:11,640
then the the the

2344
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:13,500
the proper pedantic

2345
00:39:13,500 --> 00:39:14,540
thing to do and I

2346
00:39:14,540 --> 00:39:15,520
mean that that word

2347
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:16,360
means the wrong thing

2348
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:17,180
nowadays but the

2349
00:39:17,180 --> 00:39:18,760
helpful thing to do is

2350
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:19,760
to say here's how you

2351
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:20,800
should think about that

2352
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:21,480
and here's how to

2353
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:22,640
here's how to solve

2354
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:23,620
the original problem

2355
00:39:23,620 --> 00:39:24,460
that prompted you to

2356
00:39:24,460 --> 00:39:26,180
ask this question and

2357
00:39:26,180 --> 00:39:28,040
you know go along that

2358
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:29,280
path and I think I

2359
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:30,100
think you know to your

2360
00:39:30,100 --> 00:39:31,380
point right like so so

2361
00:39:31,380 --> 00:39:32,960
if the question is how

2362
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:33,960
do I make my finance

2363
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:35,220
people happy the

2364
00:39:35,220 --> 00:39:36,120
answer is you should

2365
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,140
talk to them yeah

2366
00:39:38,140 --> 00:39:39,320
and I think you yeah

2367
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:39,920
and I think you should

2368
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:40,900
have conversations about

2369
00:39:40,900 --> 00:39:42,120
what what this really is

2370
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:42,840
going to mean and if

2371
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:44,040
you can't you know you

2372
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:45,400
don't have to worry so

2373
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:46,120
much about quantifying

2374
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:47,440
down to the penny but

2375
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:48,100
you should in rough

2376
00:39:48,100 --> 00:39:49,060
terms be able to talk

2377
00:39:49,060 --> 00:39:50,380
about I'm going to be

2378
00:39:50,380 --> 00:39:51,400
able to deliver this

2379
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:52,200
much more with the

2380
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:52,820
same amount of money

2381
00:39:52,820 --> 00:39:54,300
right you know and I

2382
00:39:54,300 --> 00:39:55,820
was on on tab to

2383
00:39:55,820 --> 00:39:58,280
spend you know x and

2384
00:39:58,280 --> 00:39:59,240
I'm going to spend x

2385
00:39:59,240 --> 00:40:00,280
plus one this year but

2386
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:00,960
I'm going to drop it

2387
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:02,300
down to x minus two

2388
00:40:02,300 --> 00:40:03,160
next year and then

2389
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:03,680
you're up to that x

2390
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:04,960
minus three you know

2391
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:06,640
and if you deliver on

2392
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:07,500
all those things then

2393
00:40:07,500 --> 00:40:08,260
you might wake up one

2394
00:40:08,260 --> 00:40:08,920
day and find out you

2395
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:09,980
have a very high

2396
00:40:09,980 --> 00:40:12,020
functioning DevOps you

2397
00:40:12,020 --> 00:40:13,800
know system in place

2398
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:14,840
and it's all hunky

2399
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:15,760
dory and all your

2400
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:16,660
problems are solved

2401
00:40:16,660 --> 00:40:18,760
that's right so so if

2402
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:19,760
someone wanted to was

2403
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:20,860
interested in more ed

2404
00:40:20,860 --> 00:40:21,820
where should they go to

2405
00:40:21,820 --> 00:40:23,140
look that up oh

2406
00:40:23,140 --> 00:40:26,480
geez I am such not a

2407
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:27,300
social media person

2408
00:40:27,300 --> 00:40:29,160
anymore I have a

2409
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:30,220
Twitter account I

2410
00:40:30,220 --> 00:40:30,840
have an Instagram

2411
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:31,880
account and I posted

2412
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:32,640
them once every six

2413
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:33,900
months you know I

2414
00:40:33,900 --> 00:40:34,440
guess Twitter is the

2415
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:35,140
best place to hit me

2416
00:40:35,140 --> 00:40:37,120
up so that's at a

2417
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,260
goodwin tx and then

2418
00:40:40,260 --> 00:40:41,840
yeah I guess I'll

2419
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:42,480
respond to that

2420
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:43,960
honestly the best

2421
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:44,920
way to hit me up so I

2422
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:46,140
run the Houston our

2423
00:40:46,140 --> 00:40:47,280
users group and that

2424
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:48,720
meetup site there's a

2425
00:40:48,720 --> 00:40:49,520
huge amount of

2426
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:50,060
messaging that goes

2427
00:40:50,060 --> 00:40:50,900
back and forth prior

2428
00:40:50,900 --> 00:40:51,680
to the prior to the

2429
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:53,380
meetups I get a lot

2430
00:40:53,380 --> 00:40:54,520
of kind of like our

2431
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:56,900
technical questions

2432
00:40:56,900 --> 00:40:57,700
thrown my way and

2433
00:40:57,700 --> 00:40:59,300
stuff so that's

2434
00:40:59,300 --> 00:40:59,680
actually a really

2435
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:00,540
good place to do

2436
00:41:00,540 --> 00:41:02,000
that and I wish I

2437
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:02,660
could tell you what

2438
00:41:02,660 --> 00:41:03,440
the address on that

2439
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:04,980
is let me see it's

2440
00:41:04,980 --> 00:41:08,260
meetup.com slash

2441
00:41:08,260 --> 00:41:11,040
Houston are that's

2442
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,300
it so yeah dinner

2443
00:41:13,300 --> 00:41:14,700
Houston or without

2444
00:41:14,700 --> 00:41:16,600
without an e and

2445
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:18,500
yeah and if anybody

2446
00:41:18,500 --> 00:41:19,220
wants to come to the

2447
00:41:19,220 --> 00:41:20,320
meetups I'm pretty

2448
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:21,100
much every single one

2449
00:41:21,100 --> 00:41:22,940
every month we meet

2450
00:41:22,940 --> 00:41:23,760
at Stark Houston

2451
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:25,660
mostly the first

2452
00:41:25,660 --> 00:41:26,480
Tuesday of every month

2453
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:27,080
and we typically

2454
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:27,560
have really good

2455
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:28,180
topics on like

2456
00:41:28,180 --> 00:41:29,320
machine learning and

2457
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:30,660
time series analysis

2458
00:41:30,660 --> 00:41:31,780
and whatever so

2459
00:41:31,780 --> 00:41:33,220
exactly making sense

2460
00:41:33,220 --> 00:41:33,800
of that crazy

2461
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:35,100
language perfect

2462
00:41:35,100 --> 00:41:38,180
yeah yeah so the

2463
00:41:38,180 --> 00:41:39,080
joy of that is is

2464
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:39,820
it's I'm not a

2465
00:41:39,820 --> 00:41:40,560
developer anymore I

2466
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:41,180
don't have to answer

2467
00:41:41,180 --> 00:41:43,180
why the it's

2468
00:41:43,180 --> 00:41:45,660
programmatically kind

2469
00:41:45,660 --> 00:41:46,620
of a mess of a

2470
00:41:46,620 --> 00:41:47,680
language and yeah I

2471
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:48,140
just get to have fun

2472
00:41:48,140 --> 00:41:49,080
with it so exactly

2473
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:50,800
well great well as

2474
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:52,240
always this has been

2475
00:41:52,240 --> 00:41:52,840
the Pivotal

2476
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:54,040
conversations podcast

2477
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:55,180
you can you can

2478
00:41:55,180 --> 00:41:55,940
check out the show

2479
00:41:55,940 --> 00:41:56,480
notes I'll put some

2480
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:57,560
links to the our

2481
00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:58,360
user group Ed was

2482
00:41:58,360 --> 00:41:59,380
talking about and

2483
00:41:59,380 --> 00:42:01,220
his famous Twitter

2484
00:42:01,220 --> 00:42:03,320
account very high

2485
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:04,880
traffic yeah I think

2486
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:05,420
I've got like two

2487
00:42:05,420 --> 00:42:06,420
followers and I think

2488
00:42:06,420 --> 00:42:07,580
you and that's right

2489
00:42:07,580 --> 00:42:09,220
and and you can you

2490
00:42:09,220 --> 00:42:10,100
can find all that

2491
00:42:10,100 --> 00:42:11,420
stuff at pivotal.io

2492
00:42:11,420 --> 00:42:12,740
slash podcast or

2493
00:42:12,740 --> 00:42:13,980
podcast depending on

2494
00:42:13,980 --> 00:42:15,520
your plurality your

2495
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:17,120
position thereof and

2496
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:17,960
with that we'll see

2497
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:18,840
everyone next time

2498
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:20,140
bye bye bye