1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,860 Well, you know, when I was growing up, my grandparents on my mother's side lived in Austin 2 00:00:04,860 --> 00:00:06,380 here, and we would visit them all the time. 3 00:00:06,460 --> 00:00:09,280 They gave me this nice perspective on the growth in Austin because they used to live 4 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:14,440 in the middle of nowhere, and now where they live is comfortably in what we euphemistically 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:20,520 called North Central Austin, which is a funny phrase I'm sure some real estate broker came 6 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:20,900 up with. 7 00:00:21,420 --> 00:00:26,620 But my grandfather, he had this awesome din, which I think ruined me in a good way about 8 00:00:26,620 --> 00:00:27,340 wood paneling. 9 00:00:27,340 --> 00:00:28,940 It was full of wood paneling. 10 00:00:29,340 --> 00:00:34,460 And so my vision of like sort of like perfection in life, the situation you want to pan out 11 00:00:34,460 --> 00:00:37,120 is you have, first of all, you've got a den, right? 12 00:00:37,140 --> 00:00:38,760 Like that's a whole thing right there. 13 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,300 But second, it's covered in wood paneling. 14 00:00:41,340 --> 00:00:46,600 And I have noticed in the video calls that we've been having recently, the house you're 15 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:51,100 now in there in over in the California, in Los Angeles, as they say. 16 00:00:51,380 --> 00:00:52,260 In the California. 17 00:00:52,540 --> 00:00:53,760 It's full of wood. 18 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:55,240 It's got wood paneling everywhere. 19 00:00:55,240 --> 00:01:02,420 So I've been like waiting to ask you, has this introduced a sort of sense of accomplishment 20 00:01:02,420 --> 00:01:03,460 and calm for you? 21 00:01:03,580 --> 00:01:06,400 Or do you not react to wood paneling the same way that I do? 22 00:01:07,740 --> 00:01:13,300 I'm not sure confidence and calm is the thing I'm going with, but it's a nice room that I'm 23 00:01:13,300 --> 00:01:15,040 sitting in at this moment. 24 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:19,340 Do you feel like you need to pledge it a lot or, you know, polish it? 25 00:01:19,420 --> 00:01:21,180 Like how does one care for all that wood? 26 00:01:22,500 --> 00:01:26,780 I think that the weather and the way they set up, it doesn't need a ton of care. 27 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,540 It's kind of, it's cured, if you will. 28 00:01:29,960 --> 00:01:33,000 It's been, this is a house that was built in 1926. 29 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,620 So it's going on a hundred years of this wood paneling, I believe. 30 00:01:37,580 --> 00:01:38,800 And it's nice. 31 00:01:39,060 --> 00:01:41,300 It's, I'm surrounded by wood, wood shelves. 32 00:01:41,740 --> 00:01:45,940 There's actually also a stained glass window on one side of it that goes into the house. 33 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:46,480 Oh yes. 34 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:47,680 I remember you showing me that. 35 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:48,320 That's very nice. 36 00:01:48,860 --> 00:01:49,780 It's a nice feature. 37 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:54,080 And, and does, does it also, you know, does it feel like you're, uh, you're kind of moving 38 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:58,860 around in every kind of mid budgeted sort of Hollywood entertainment thing often, which 39 00:01:58,860 --> 00:02:01,060 is like just filmed in the area, right? 40 00:02:01,060 --> 00:02:04,200 Like it seems like you've got the, uh, the ranch housing around there. 41 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,540 Like it must be very reminiscent of lots of movies and TV shows. 42 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:14,300 I'm sure there's a bunch of 90 shows that are, you know, filmed within however, however 43 00:02:14,300 --> 00:02:16,200 far from here, walking distance maybe. 44 00:02:16,500 --> 00:02:19,040 And then you were down in Orange County this week. 45 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:21,260 So you had a whole Veronica Mars feel to exist. 46 00:02:21,260 --> 00:02:21,840 No, no, no. 47 00:02:21,920 --> 00:02:23,140 I went all the way to San Diego. 48 00:02:23,380 --> 00:02:23,680 Well, sure. 49 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:24,560 You drove through that. 50 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:26,620 You know, I, I lump it all as the same reason. 51 00:02:26,620 --> 00:02:30,160 Just like I treat like all of New England as one sort of big city. 52 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:34,780 I think, I think of the, uh, the kind of like LA, Orange County, San Diego thing is 53 00:02:34,780 --> 00:02:38,280 just sort of like one gigantic expanse of stuff. 54 00:02:38,940 --> 00:02:42,940 So here's a little thing before we get onto the, uh, to the real meat of this matter. 55 00:02:43,260 --> 00:02:50,060 I've never seen advertisements for Maseratis on TV before, uh, but now in fact I have. 56 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:51,840 Ah, yes, yes. 57 00:02:52,300 --> 00:02:57,060 This is, this is like, I feel, I felt like the Austin tech community had arrived when 58 00:02:57,060 --> 00:03:02,240 we had those grotesque dice billboards of like geeks in their, uh, jockey shorts around 59 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:02,620 town. 60 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:04,800 It was, it was, it was a big moment for us. 61 00:03:05,100 --> 00:03:05,700 Big times. 62 00:03:06,460 --> 00:03:08,200 The times they, they are changing. 63 00:03:08,820 --> 00:03:11,100 Yeah, I, I did drive down, down the way. 64 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,140 I, it was actually the first week of school. 65 00:03:14,460 --> 00:03:19,640 So I dropped my kids off at school, drove from Los Angeles to San Diego, spent two hours 66 00:03:19,640 --> 00:03:22,940 at a Gartner conference and drove back to pick them up from school. 67 00:03:22,940 --> 00:03:24,680 That was a very productive day. 68 00:03:25,540 --> 00:03:25,580 Yeah. 69 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:26,080 Yeah. 70 00:03:26,100 --> 00:03:27,280 Was that, was that catalyst? 71 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:29,840 That was the Gartner catalyst. 72 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:30,640 Yes. 73 00:03:30,700 --> 00:03:34,360 And I did a, I did a panel about private paths. 74 00:03:34,860 --> 00:03:35,960 Is the, is it ready? 75 00:03:36,460 --> 00:03:40,880 Ah, well, were they banding about the phrase cloud native and things like that? 76 00:03:40,900 --> 00:03:42,700 I mean, that's, that's been the popular thing nowadays. 77 00:03:42,700 --> 00:03:44,860 That's, that's a good, good launching off point. 78 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:50,920 Uh, I think we said that word and a few other buzzwords along the way, there was probably 79 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:55,440 some microservices and continuous delivery and DevOps mentioned as well. 80 00:03:55,820 --> 00:03:56,100 Yeah. 81 00:03:56,220 --> 00:03:59,940 But the main thing that I think is a win here is, uh, you know, especially from the perspective 82 00:03:59,940 --> 00:04:05,940 of what we've been trying to do is that Gartner finally admitted that there's a such thing 83 00:04:05,940 --> 00:04:07,860 as a private platform as a service. 84 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:14,360 And then they, they had some interesting data that they said 52% of their inbound queries 85 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:18,640 about, about platforms are about a private platform as a service. 86 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:20,320 So that's a interesting validation. 87 00:04:20,780 --> 00:04:21,020 Oh yeah. 88 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:21,480 Yeah. 89 00:04:21,580 --> 00:04:27,000 You know, back when I was at Dell doing cloud strategy, sizing the mark, getting any information 90 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,820 about the private paths market was really hard. 91 00:04:29,820 --> 00:04:35,540 And I remember Gartner has a category called CEAP, which I always inserted an R in there 92 00:04:35,540 --> 00:04:37,720 to make it creep because I can't help but make a joke. 93 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:42,980 But you know, it's a, it'd be nice if they converted that over more into just, instead 94 00:04:42,980 --> 00:04:47,100 of it being middleware and application stack, it'd be nice to track that as its own thing. 95 00:04:48,980 --> 00:04:52,880 I think, I think, I think that the market's kind of, uh, forcing their hand in that regard. 96 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:57,280 You know, obviously if you spend any time talking to me, you know, how much I like the word, 97 00:04:57,280 --> 00:05:03,640 uh, has and, and how, you know, I basically tell everyone to stop saying that, but, uh, you 98 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:04,800 know, they're kind of, they're catching up. 99 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:11,100 And, and, and, and, you know, speaking of, of trying to, uh, reframe what paths is, if 100 00:05:11,100 --> 00:05:11,420 you will. 101 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:15,440 So there, there's, there, there's a whole lot of, uh, I don't know what you would call 102 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,820 it fun shoots and ladders when it comes to the phrases used for this stuff. 103 00:05:18,820 --> 00:05:22,660 But I think, I think we, and the people we talk with here at Pivotal have come up with 104 00:05:22,660 --> 00:05:28,320 some good framing and we, we still use, and I still like the idea of a cloud platform, right? 105 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:33,120 But there's, there's this idea of, of cloud native that we've been dividing into essentially 106 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,860 three layers, basically the, the application framework. 107 00:05:36,860 --> 00:05:40,500 And it's sort of, you know, that's, that's where you have your 12 factor apps and microservices 108 00:05:40,500 --> 00:05:41,420 and things like that. 109 00:05:41,580 --> 00:05:45,340 And then you've got this layer in the middle, that's the container orchestration, which of 110 00:05:45,340 --> 00:05:48,800 course you can reverse engineer that, that implies there's some containers involved. 111 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:53,100 And then, and then the layer below that is essentially the infrastructure automation layer. 112 00:05:53,260 --> 00:05:58,780 And it's, it's starting to feel like a good way to divide up what something you and I 113 00:05:58,780 --> 00:06:03,380 and other people have been talking about a lot is, uh, so paths is a lot more than just 114 00:06:03,380 --> 00:06:04,860 sort of like that first layer. 115 00:06:04,860 --> 00:06:08,180 It's really all, well, it's a lot more, I should say. 116 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,260 And it really does get to that point of why we always talk about a platform and, and the 117 00:06:12,260 --> 00:06:14,060 need to have all of these different layers in there. 118 00:06:14,700 --> 00:06:15,100 Yeah. 119 00:06:15,140 --> 00:06:20,980 I think the acceptable definition of paths for me is, is this sort of API driven deployment 120 00:06:20,980 --> 00:06:26,260 layer, uh, which you, which you definitely want to, want to have, uh, if you want to do 121 00:06:26,260 --> 00:06:31,540 something like microservices or continuous delivery, then you're going to need to drive down the, 122 00:06:31,540 --> 00:06:35,740 the fixed cost of delivery, fixed cost of deployment, uh, you're probably going to want to do that 123 00:06:35,740 --> 00:06:36,580 with some APIs. 124 00:06:36,860 --> 00:06:40,900 And at some point, whatever you build to do that starts to look suspiciously like what 125 00:06:40,900 --> 00:06:46,060 people will call a paths, but, but that quote unquote, as a service thing, whatever that 126 00:06:46,060 --> 00:06:48,560 is, uh, is an application as well. 127 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:50,000 So how do you deploy that thing? 128 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:51,040 How do you manage that thing? 129 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:52,840 How do you upgrade that thing? 130 00:06:53,100 --> 00:06:54,300 How do you operate that thing? 131 00:06:54,740 --> 00:06:59,180 Uh, that's, that's the stuff that's, that's at the layer below this kind of infrastructure 132 00:06:59,180 --> 00:07:05,120 automation layer that, that I think right now there's, there's no other project that, that 133 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:08,120 has anything close to what we're capable of doing right there. 134 00:07:08,420 --> 00:07:13,060 And then, and then above the layer where you have the, the platform or the, or the quote 135 00:07:13,060 --> 00:07:18,320 unquote APIs for deployment, uh, there, there's a bunch of architectural patterns that are 136 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:24,160 emerging, which if you, if you want to kind of reinvent the wheel, you're more than welcome 137 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:29,040 to, but the, the things that we're able to give people out of the box right now with, with 138 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:36,020 spring, spring boot, uh, and spring cloud is basically like this microservices, uh, Lego 139 00:07:36,020 --> 00:07:38,040 pieces that you can kind of put together. 140 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:45,480 Uh, and many of them have been used to build, you know, whatever, uh, Java background or, 141 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:47,760 or applications that you're already using, right? 142 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:53,700 Like the Netflix is famous for, for, for having a third of the internet traffic pretty much 143 00:07:53,700 --> 00:07:54,180 every night. 144 00:07:54,180 --> 00:07:58,980 And they're using, we're, we're, we're actually using their stuff and they're using our stuff, 145 00:07:58,980 --> 00:08:00,880 uh, to kind of build the future. 146 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:04,280 And, and you might as well take advantage of that, that code that's already there. 147 00:08:04,660 --> 00:08:05,060 Yeah. 148 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,120 And, and, and, you know, I think let's thinking through the publishing schedule. 149 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:12,980 Well, we, we've actually, uh, published the last two episodes of this podcast are all about 150 00:08:12,980 --> 00:08:14,380 spring boot and spring cloud. 151 00:08:14,380 --> 00:08:17,660 And it is, I think that's my, that's my boy, Josh long. 152 00:08:17,860 --> 00:08:18,340 Exactly. 153 00:08:18,580 --> 00:08:19,940 He's, he's fun to talk with. 154 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:25,840 And, uh, uh, you know, it is, it is, it's interesting to sort of understand cloud native 155 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:28,040 through the lens of spring cloud, basically. 156 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:32,080 And then the, the kind of setting up that, that spring boot does for you. 157 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,440 Cause it's, it's a, um, I don't know. 158 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:36,660 I mean, I, I'm an old Java person. 159 00:08:36,660 --> 00:08:41,560 So the phrase opinionated always like feels like the, the, the old wars of the mid two thousands 160 00:08:41,560 --> 00:08:45,340 to me, but it's a nicely opinionated way of how you go about accomplishing all that in 161 00:08:45,340 --> 00:08:45,620 Java. 162 00:08:45,620 --> 00:08:50,080 And, uh, it's, it really, it really demonstrates the cloud native lifestyle. 163 00:08:52,220 --> 00:08:54,820 I believe in, in having strong opinions. 164 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:55,480 Yeah. 165 00:08:55,560 --> 00:09:00,840 And no, that reminds me you, uh, you tweeted a little while ago, what was it 2009 or 2008 166 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:06,420 that you sort of like, uh, turned your back on Java and like, like, like, what did you 167 00:09:06,420 --> 00:09:06,960 mean by that? 168 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:08,600 Like what, what made you give up on it? 169 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,160 And what, what made you like, uh, start looking at it again? 170 00:09:12,560 --> 00:09:15,600 Uh, I mean, this, I don't know how, how deep we want to go into this rabble. 171 00:09:15,620 --> 00:09:21,360 But there was a, there was a period in my career where I was primarily writing a Java code, 172 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:26,240 um, back in the day where, um, you know, the first time I ever wrote Java was, was right 173 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:32,080 when JSPs came out and everyone is so excited because now you could put the, you know, you 174 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,920 no longer had to embed the HTML in your servlet code. 175 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:39,960 You could now embed your Java code in your HTML and that was so much better. 176 00:09:40,380 --> 00:09:45,600 Uh, and we, we kind of all know like where, what a, you know, crazy tangled disaster. 177 00:09:45,620 --> 00:09:52,200 And, uh, and then the J2E stuff came out and, and, you know, whatever's going on. 178 00:09:52,260 --> 00:09:55,060 And I ended up working for some startups that were primarily Java. 179 00:09:55,240 --> 00:10:00,700 And along the, the funny thing was along the way I was doing all this, um, kind of computational 180 00:10:00,700 --> 00:10:05,000 science and that was primarily C, C++ and, and Fortran. 181 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:10,780 And, and, and they always had like this weird disdain for, for the Java developers, which 182 00:10:10,780 --> 00:10:12,340 I, I thought it was odd. 183 00:10:12,500 --> 00:10:18,640 But then after, after seeing how a lot of that stuff was built and some of the things that 184 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:23,720 were going on, like I, I didn't start, like I, I liked Java in a sense, but the sort of 185 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,600 the culture around it was very stagnant and confined to me. 186 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:33,600 And then when I, when I ran into, you know, I started, uh, some of the Ruby stuff and working 187 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:38,880 on Puppet and going to the Ruby conferences, then it was just really easy to get enamored 188 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,360 and kind of caught up in the enthusiasm of that community. 189 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,380 And, and that made me never want to really do Java again. 190 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:50,220 Just, you know, it's, it's one thing that the technology, but the, the community itself 191 00:10:50,220 --> 00:10:53,420 was, was not inspiring at least to me at the time. 192 00:10:53,420 --> 00:10:57,740 Um, and, and there's this alternative community that was, was really trying to, to move things 193 00:10:57,740 --> 00:11:02,020 forward and push the boundaries and, you know, things like, like Rails and Puppet and Chef 194 00:11:02,020 --> 00:11:05,160 and the rest of that are, are all kind of part of that narrative. 195 00:11:05,900 --> 00:11:10,680 Uh, now, now you're seeing, you know, explosions of languages and people are doing things with 196 00:11:10,680 --> 00:11:12,260 JavaScript and the rest of it. 197 00:11:12,260 --> 00:11:18,280 But when, when you look at that full cycle, lots of people that are my friends that built 198 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:23,400 some of these big startups, big web applications, they, they kind of all grab it. 199 00:11:23,420 --> 00:11:29,400 gravitated back to Java or many of them gravitated back to Java as this reliable, uh, you know, 200 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:35,660 kind of battle hardened way to, to solve these problems at scale where, where it's much harder 201 00:11:35,660 --> 00:11:40,080 to kind of coax the, the, the Ruby runtime to, to do that. 202 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:41,660 Yeah, no, no. 203 00:11:41,740 --> 00:11:47,160 I mean, you, you definitely, uh, you can see that in the, the, you know, the red monk where 204 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:51,440 I, I worked a while ago has always done a good job of pointing out that sort of return to 205 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:56,520 Java, if you will, uh, which, which is, which is always encouraging, but that, you know, 206 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:59,700 you're also touching on something I've been thinking about a lot recently as I've been, 207 00:11:59,700 --> 00:12:04,300 uh, I've been typing up this series of like, what's the cloud native journey look like? 208 00:12:04,680 --> 00:12:11,460 And, uh, most of it is like a lot of, as we would say, cultural and process and things 209 00:12:11,460 --> 00:12:12,160 like that talk. 210 00:12:12,180 --> 00:12:14,720 Like it's not too tightly connected to the technology. 211 00:12:15,220 --> 00:12:20,680 Uh, and I I've been reflecting on, like, as you were just saying, like, I guess you could 212 00:12:20,680 --> 00:12:22,960 call it what went wrong with enterprise Java. 213 00:12:23,900 --> 00:12:27,180 And, and I say enterprise Java apart from Java very specifically. 214 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:32,740 And, and I think it's because they didn't really, and I should say we, cause I was in 215 00:12:32,740 --> 00:12:38,120 that bucket, but we didn't spend enough time on the non-technical aspects of things, right? 216 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:45,060 All the way from sort of like architectural concerns to sort of process and, uh, how you 217 00:12:45,060 --> 00:12:47,260 organize teams and how you think about all of that. 218 00:12:47,260 --> 00:12:52,520 And, and it also, I think it to some extent explains why in the DevOps space and increasingly 219 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:56,480 in, in the cloud native space, everyone's obsessed with culture, right? 220 00:12:56,820 --> 00:13:01,700 They talk about people problems so much because whether people implicitly remember it, or I 221 00:13:01,700 --> 00:13:06,080 should say explicitly remember it, or it's just kind of scurrying around in their subconscious, 222 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,560 they kind of remember that like the people part is really important. 223 00:13:09,560 --> 00:13:11,600 So we should spend a lot of time on that. 224 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:16,800 And, uh, you know, it, it doesn't, it doesn't seem like in the enterprise Java space, enough 225 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:17,940 time was spent on that. 226 00:13:17,940 --> 00:13:22,120 And so it sort of explains why we spend a tremendous amount of time on that in the, uh, 227 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:23,780 the sort of current era that we're in. 228 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,520 I think there's a bunch of things that are happening and, and, you know, obviously the 229 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:32,440 cultural stuff is something I spent a good amount of time talking about. 230 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:37,620 And there's kind of a pendulum that, that swings in the DevOps community where on one 231 00:13:37,620 --> 00:13:42,060 hand people say, oh, you know, we more need more culture than, than people 232 00:13:42,060 --> 00:13:44,780 say, oh, well, like everyone's talking about culture. 233 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,900 We, we kind of need to talk about tech and it sort of swings back and forth. 234 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:52,920 And then I would say, and this, this applies to the automation space and really kind of 235 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:57,960 all three layers of what you just set up when we, when started the conversation that I think 236 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:03,280 that the, the old mentality, which, which I'm going to say is, is transitioning in the 237 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,860 cloud native mentality was to just do whatever, right? 238 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:11,960 And so, so Java automation, that's a good way of putting it all the rest of the 239 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:18,140 this stuff from, from kind of that last generation of, of, of work is, is like, let's just do 240 00:14:18,140 --> 00:14:18,480 whatever. 241 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,780 And we'll put the features into that thing. 242 00:14:21,220 --> 00:14:26,220 And that's why you end up with these kind of bloated, unmaintainable, unmanageable, 243 00:14:26,220 --> 00:14:28,400 uh, applications. 244 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:35,620 And I think that at least the way I'm going to do things moving forward is have much stronger 245 00:14:35,620 --> 00:14:36,780 opinions, right? 246 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:42,120 I was on, I was on this panel at Gartner and one of the things that was a bit of, uh, contention 247 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:46,580 with some of the other panelists is that they're, they're arguing that their platforms will just 248 00:14:46,580 --> 00:14:47,380 let you do whatever. 249 00:14:47,380 --> 00:14:53,880 And I think that, and I believe this very strongly that ad hoc automation is actually a problem 250 00:14:53,880 --> 00:15:01,020 masquerading as a solution and that you just end up with, with more, more problems, uh, or, or at 251 00:15:01,020 --> 00:15:04,540 least, uh, you know, kind of proportional amount of problems going forward. 252 00:15:04,540 --> 00:15:09,460 If you don't look at how all these things integrate from, from the patterns of the 253 00:15:09,460 --> 00:15:14,000 architecture, to the patterns of the, of the infrastructure, to the patterns of the automation, 254 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:20,980 all sort of in an integrated fashion, if you have, if you've given yourself the leeway to do 255 00:15:20,980 --> 00:15:25,160 anything, then you have to do anything to recover that, right? 256 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:32,120 You can't, you can't make and enforce promises about what you're actually going to have from a 257 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:37,060 behavior perspective, from the, from the scalability perspective, from the reliability perspective, 258 00:15:37,060 --> 00:15:42,720 from the security perspective. And, and I think that what's evolving and what I see as kind of the cloud 259 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:49,180 native, um, mindset and architectures is, and, and this is actually pretty explicit. If you listen to 260 00:15:49,180 --> 00:15:54,800 people like Adrian Kokroff from Netflix talk, it's like, we didn't, we didn't give self-service 261 00:15:54,800 --> 00:16:01,140 automation to just do whatever. We automated simple patterns. We automated predictable patterns. 262 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:06,980 And it's that, it's that array of predictable patterns. That's this array of kind of battle 263 00:16:06,980 --> 00:16:14,480 tested architectural, uh, paradigms that I think is emerging as the, as the new standard. And that's, 264 00:16:14,540 --> 00:16:18,260 that's, what's exciting. That's where you, you know, you, this thing will scale, you know, 265 00:16:18,260 --> 00:16:24,640 this thing can be managed. You know, this thing is secure because you constrained what you're going to 266 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:30,880 allow. And in return, you can keep stronger promises about that. And one of those promises is, 267 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:36,700 is self-service. Uh, other promises are, you know, this long list of quote unquote abilities. And, 268 00:16:36,900 --> 00:16:42,720 I think that's, what's exciting. Yeah. And, and that, you know, to use my, uh, my sort of like 269 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:47,460 ever, ever expanding pigeon language for understanding the world, it's sort of like, uh, 270 00:16:48,460 --> 00:16:55,220 I, there, there's, there's a certain amount of, of, uh, local optimization that destroys the big 271 00:16:55,220 --> 00:17:00,500 picture that goes on when you have that, just do whatever mentality. And I think, uh, you know, 272 00:17:00,580 --> 00:17:05,060 I'm not often the one who like kicks sand in other people's faces, but if you look at what a lot of 273 00:17:05,060 --> 00:17:12,100 the conceptual and product-based competition of ours is up to, they tend to focus on just one layer of, 274 00:17:12,180 --> 00:17:18,000 of that, that stack. I mean, we, we neatly sorted it down to three layers, but it's sort of like, 275 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:23,160 you know, if you only focus on, on packaging or you focus on deployment or you focus on the framework 276 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:28,140 that you use, you really optimize the crap out of that one thing that you do and you probably do it 277 00:17:28,140 --> 00:17:34,480 well, but in order to sort of like make sure that things work in the large, you've got to look at 278 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:39,440 the whole system end to end. And when you start doing that, that's when you start forming opinions 279 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:45,680 that may, may not make perfect sense, uh, at first to sort of like one node in that, that area. So 280 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,820 like some operator may not want something like something or a developer may not like something 281 00:17:49,820 --> 00:17:55,400 or so forth and so on, but you're sort of like have that whole end to end vision, like those three 282 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,420 things we were going over because otherwise it doesn't really work out so well. And I think 283 00:17:59,420 --> 00:18:03,960 there's plenty of historic analogs. Like we're just going over like enterprise Java, where there's a 284 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:09,340 bit of local optimization at parts of the application life cycle. And what we're trying to do, I mean, 285 00:18:09,340 --> 00:18:14,200 I always look at the tech industry is like two steps forward, one step back, essentially. Right. 286 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:19,560 Just sort of like slow progress and figuring out this stuff, two steps forward, one step back, 287 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:23,920 one step sideways. That's right. Right. You know, and then several steps trying to figure out where 288 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,840 you've ended up. It's like, if you get knocked out by a zombie and you wake up late after the 289 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:31,800 commercial break and you're trying to figure out what happened, but anyway, I mean, I think that's 290 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:37,500 exactly the point framed in a, in maybe a little less complicated way. I think if you look at the 291 00:18:37,500 --> 00:18:43,700 specs on, on an iPhone today, that it arguably doesn't have the best hardware for, for nearly any 292 00:18:43,700 --> 00:18:50,340 component. But, but the, the, you can't argue with their results in the market. You can't argue with 293 00:18:50,340 --> 00:18:56,400 their experience, the experience they've created. And so I think that if you, if you look at things 294 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:01,880 more holistically in an integrated fashion from, from top to bottom, then the, then the types of 295 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:07,780 efficiencies and experiences you can create are, are, are very different than if you're optimizing some, 296 00:19:07,780 --> 00:19:12,900 some component in the stack. Right. And, and I think, I think, you know, as, as I've been writing up that, 297 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:19,140 the cloud native journey stuff, that's, that's what we've seen amongst our customers is they almost, 298 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:23,200 they, they, they have a view to the big picture and what the end result is going to do, but they, 299 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:28,440 but they take these, these sort of like the, the kind of hockey stickish curve of small changes, 300 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:34,340 small changes. And all of a sudden they, once, once they learn the process and the culture and the 301 00:19:34,340 --> 00:19:38,220 mindset, they can just suck in all the other technologies and do things in the large. But 302 00:19:38,220 --> 00:19:43,240 again, I think it comes back to having those, those three layers of the stack that look at 303 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:48,300 everything, which, which I think is hopefully that's what this idea of cloud native ends up 304 00:19:48,300 --> 00:19:54,880 becoming is not only the technologies, but the sort of like big picture process end to end that you wrap 305 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:55,380 around it. 306 00:19:55,380 --> 00:20:00,940 So one of the big differences in the, in the panel, and there were a lot of things we agreed 307 00:20:00,940 --> 00:20:07,040 on actually, but the big difference in my opinion was where people wanted to, to, to make opinions 308 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:13,380 and, you know, how much they were willing to, to trade off investing in the future versus sort 309 00:20:13,380 --> 00:20:19,840 of optimizing aspects of the past. And I think from Pivotal's perspective in the way I want to think 310 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:26,000 about things and the way I want to build things, I want us to be much more like, like doctors where 311 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:33,160 we're, we're giving you something that will, will help you be well. And this is the, this is the path 312 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:38,100 forward. This is the way that you're going to, if you want to, if you want to be well, like this is 313 00:20:38,100 --> 00:20:44,260 how you live versus, Hey, I'm, I'm a waiter and I'm going to take your order and whatever you want, 314 00:20:44,300 --> 00:20:50,540 like, I'm just going to bring it to you. Right. And, and as a consequence, if someone asked me 315 00:20:50,540 --> 00:20:55,860 right now, how do you do this complicated thing that, you know, is it's, I want to install this 316 00:20:55,860 --> 00:20:59,860 thing and it's got a bunch of state and there's a bunch of steps. And then at the end of that 317 00:20:59,860 --> 00:21:05,540 process, this thing set up, how do you do that? How do you do that with Bosch? Then I just say, 318 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:10,440 you don't, don't do that. Why would you want to do that? What I want to build here are things that 319 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:15,960 are easily recovered, easily scaled. And what you just did with this complicated thing that has a 320 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:21,780 bunch of water and a bunch of state and a bunch of steps is set yourself a lower bound for how fast 321 00:21:21,780 --> 00:21:28,160 you can possibly recover when that thing inevitably fails. Right. And, and that as a consequence of 322 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:32,000 like, you know, a bunch of these other things where people are talking about their, you know, 323 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,080 their problems with their culture, their problems with their downtime, all these other things, 324 00:21:36,360 --> 00:21:40,500 half the time when you look at that, you know, people are, I was just at the agile conference 325 00:21:40,500 --> 00:21:45,060 too. And people were talking about, you know, agile, we want to scale agile. The reason you can't 326 00:21:45,060 --> 00:21:51,200 scale is because your architecture is this monolithic thing. That means everyone is gated on everyone 327 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:56,060 else. Right. If you want to scale your process, scale your architecture, you want to fix your uptime, 328 00:21:56,180 --> 00:22:00,440 fix your architecture. There's a lot of these things, you know, and, and in some ways, some of the 329 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:07,860 agile narrative probably rotated people off of this, but architecture actually matters. Like the day two 330 00:22:07,860 --> 00:22:14,580 cost of operating different architectures can be vastly different. And that's why I think you see 331 00:22:14,580 --> 00:22:19,740 this, this movement. And I've argued this in some of my presentations. And I just made this statement at 332 00:22:19,740 --> 00:22:26,460 the agile conference that these microservice architectures are the natural evolution of people 333 00:22:26,460 --> 00:22:34,140 who need to change things, move fast and move at scale. If you don't, if you don't need to move fast, 334 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:39,360 if you don't need to be at scale, then it's like you have a lot of other options, but if you need 335 00:22:39,360 --> 00:22:45,220 those things and that's, that's the evolution, that's what people did because that's the best way to do 336 00:22:45,220 --> 00:22:54,420 that. Yeah. And I think, you know, the, the, the agile community had the chance to learn, uh, how, how having 337 00:22:54,420 --> 00:23:00,220 good architecture helps out with one of their core tenants a long time ago, which is like, uh, if you can't 338 00:23:00,220 --> 00:23:06,960 test your stuff, you're doing a bad job. And so write your stuff so that it can be tested, which, which sort of 339 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:13,820 seems obvious in hindsight, but, uh, like I remember at the time it, it took a lot of rethinking about how 340 00:23:13,820 --> 00:23:18,580 you architect and divide your product out. And similarly, I think analogously, like, like, as you 341 00:23:18,580 --> 00:23:24,960 were just mentioning, there is, there's a lot of, let's just call it cloud architecture principles, 342 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:31,040 like microservices and 12 factor apps and other things that come into play. And those are there for 343 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:35,640 a reason because, because it means that you can run it appropriately and get all the benefits that 344 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:40,180 people talk about. And, you know, it reminds me actually went to go look up this point in that 345 00:23:40,180 --> 00:23:44,800 conversation you had with, uh, Matt Curry a while ago, where you guys were kind of joking, like for 346 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,960 years, people have been telling you, you know, high performing companies like Amazon and Netflix have 347 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:54,760 been telling you how they operate and what technologies they use. And everyone's always like, yeah, but you 348 00:23:54,760 --> 00:24:00,080 don't really do that. What do you guys really do? You don't really have small teams and you don't 349 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,820 really force people to manage everything. That sounds crazy. And, and it kind of amounts to that. And, 350 00:24:04,820 --> 00:24:11,500 and all of that stuff is sort of like a collection of opinions about how you need to operate in order 351 00:24:11,500 --> 00:24:17,500 to, uh, really, you know, kind of be in a cloud native sort of era and mindset. And it starts to 352 00:24:17,500 --> 00:24:21,840 become important to pay attention to them and have that, that larger view of things. And just sort of, 353 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:26,740 instead of myopically looking at your one little part of it. And, uh, so, I mean, the whole point is 354 00:24:26,740 --> 00:24:30,940 like, it's important to actually take seriously these recommendations, these opinions that people 355 00:24:30,940 --> 00:24:35,320 have. Well, one of the things I've come to believe, you know, being in this industry for 356 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:41,640 over a decade going on almost the second decade now is that telling someone a truth that they're 357 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,480 not ready to hear is the same thing as lying to them. Right. 358 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:51,640 Right. There's just, there's no way that they're going to believe you and they'll just think you're 359 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:58,400 lying anyway. So you might as well just lie to them. I think it's exciting to see the evolution. I think 360 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,940 that it's exciting to see, and we, you know, we take for granted some of this stuff because the way 361 00:25:02,940 --> 00:25:08,260 Pivotal engineers is test driven development all the time, pair programming all the time, a bunch of 362 00:25:08,260 --> 00:25:14,480 the stuff that, you know, kind of a lot of people aspire to do. That's the way Pivotal lives. And we 363 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:20,780 really try to walk our talk on a daily basis. And as a consequence of that, you know, we're, we're, 364 00:25:20,780 --> 00:25:24,820 we're learning and we're growing and we're, we're building these things with our, with our customers. 365 00:25:24,940 --> 00:25:31,780 And there, there's a lot of stuff that is emerging by necessity, right? Like that's the mother of 366 00:25:31,780 --> 00:25:38,620 invention. And if, if the patterns work and you can operate it, then that's, that's the, that's the 367 00:25:38,620 --> 00:25:45,580 real deal. Uh, I think that the, the past was sort of dominated by, uh, applications that didn't really 368 00:25:45,580 --> 00:25:51,520 have the need to be run at these scales. They didn't need to necessarily be changed. Like it was an 369 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:57,240 advantage, but you didn't have the same kind of Darwinian pressure that a lot of these, these 370 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:02,080 organizations are facing now. And, you know, this is a quote that I've made before, but someone reminded 371 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:07,480 me that I made it in their, in their presentation with CenturyLink this morning, you're, you're either 372 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:13,400 building a software business or you're losing to someone who is. And if you believe that they need 373 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:19,000 to do everything you can to enable that. And if you don't believe that, then that's fine. And we'll go 374 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,300 back to Deming on this. There's no need to change. Survival is not mandatory. 375 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:29,700 Yeah. And, and that's, that's almost like the, uh, the sort of first principle for why you would 376 00:26:29,700 --> 00:26:35,520 care about all of this is you want to become a software organization. And, and to your point, 377 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,500 it's, it's, it's, to some extent, it's almost a take it or leave it thing. Like it's, it's obvious 378 00:26:39,500 --> 00:26:46,640 to folks like us on, on the, uh, on this side of the fence that that's a good idea, right? Like 379 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:52,420 that's the punchline of survival is not mandatory, but it is, you know, it gets back to this point 380 00:26:52,420 --> 00:26:57,180 of, and therefore, if you want to be a software organization, here's how software organizations 381 00:26:57,180 --> 00:27:03,380 operate and what they do. And it's not like just weird window dressing. And, and, you know, I was 382 00:27:03,380 --> 00:27:09,660 reminded of this when I was, I was out in the, um, the field talking with, with a, uh, rather large 383 00:27:09,660 --> 00:27:14,940 company. And we have this, uh, RFQ that the Pivotal labs people did, uh, with the government 384 00:27:14,940 --> 00:27:19,760 recently where they basically, they took a pretty simple application. Uh, it would, it would test 385 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:25,580 out if, um, if, uh, you know, if, if your, your medications, your, your drugs, your prescription 386 00:27:25,580 --> 00:27:29,580 drugs would conflict with things, right? Like I'm on this, this prescription drug and I want 387 00:27:29,580 --> 00:27:34,200 to have a bottle of wine. Am I going to die? Like it would, it's pretty simple, but it was 388 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:38,860 scoped out to be a, uh, a small thing. And within eight days, they basically built this 389 00:27:38,860 --> 00:27:43,040 application and it's, it's a good presentation that you can go look over in GitHub to get 390 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:47,880 a sense of like what, um, one of the better representations of what the cloud native lifestyle 391 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:52,040 looks like, so to speak. But one of the, one of the things that I always like to explicitly 392 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:56,260 point out to people that I was doing back in the meeting with this big company is there's 393 00:27:56,260 --> 00:27:59,760 this one bullet point where in the first day they're like, oh, and then we could set this 394 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,140 all up and get it running because we were deploying it on a Pivotal Cloud Foundry, 395 00:28:03,140 --> 00:28:07,540 right? Like on a fully automated cloud platform. And so we could deploy code on day one and 396 00:28:07,540 --> 00:28:13,000 just keep deploying and do all of this deploying daily and getting user, user feedback and information 397 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,880 and working on it and deploying something after eight days because we were using this. And 398 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:22,000 then they never mentioned it again. And it's easy to kind of gloss over the fact that like 399 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:28,220 the, I don't know, maybe like the, the, the two and a half of the layers we just mentioned, 400 00:28:28,220 --> 00:28:32,020 they spend most of their time up in the application layer, but the other two layers of 401 00:28:32,020 --> 00:28:36,640 container orchestration and infrastructure automation are just like taken care of them because they've 402 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:42,820 installed this platform. And it was interesting going over that with, uh, with this big customer 403 00:28:42,820 --> 00:28:47,320 because their first question was like, oh, but those are like highly skilled people who like know 404 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:53,060 what they're doing, which is true. But on the other hand, like one, they had this technology in 405 00:28:53,060 --> 00:28:58,080 place that allows them to move fast. And then two, like the things that they do really aren't that 406 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:03,680 like difficult. It's just like, here's a set of principles that they follow. And like, if you want 407 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:08,380 to operate that way, just start doing those things too. Like, it's not impossible for you to do it. 408 00:29:08,420 --> 00:29:13,600 You just have to convert over to thinking that way. And, and, and I think, I think that's going back 409 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:19,040 to like why we talk about people and culture so much. That's a bit of the, the shift that has to 410 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:23,900 happen in people's minds is we're not really, and this is, this is a good thing that we're saying. 411 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,380 We're not really saying just like install this technology and everything will be dandy, 412 00:29:27,380 --> 00:29:33,140 but you know, get the appropriate technology stack and then you can, and then it makes it easier for 413 00:29:33,140 --> 00:29:38,820 you to change your process around to be these sort of like, you know, like ninjas or heroes or unicorns 414 00:29:38,820 --> 00:29:42,660 or whatever the nomenclature of the day is. Right. And as, as you're always fond of bringing up, 415 00:29:42,700 --> 00:29:47,780 right. Like as Adrian Krakow said, you know, they, they didn't just sort of like birth unicorn 416 00:29:47,780 --> 00:29:53,800 people from a, some green vat of goo. They hired them from regular enterprises and, and made them 417 00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:58,980 who they are. We hired them from you. Exactly. So, you know, there's, there's a tremendous amount 418 00:29:58,980 --> 00:30:04,920 of hope around being able to do this. And I think, I think what's nice is that the technologies 419 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:11,500 actually seem to work this time. Like, like if you have that big picture view of putting everything 420 00:30:11,500 --> 00:30:17,840 in place and kind of using them in the way that they're intended to be used, really all you need 421 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:22,680 to worry about is culture and people things, which in comparison to some technology that's lame and not 422 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:29,140 working is a solvable problem. Yeah. I think this is a little bit different topic, but the, you know, 423 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:36,220 the, the, the types of things that are happening in 2015 in a world with Twitter and GitHub make it 424 00:30:36,220 --> 00:30:44,300 kind of hard to sell the old enterprise, you know, legacy products that are kind of based on 425 00:30:44,300 --> 00:30:50,980 asymmetric, asymmetric access to information, right? Like the, the old, the old school enterprise 426 00:30:50,980 --> 00:30:57,020 software business was based on, you know, stake and stripper driven deals with a bunch of, uh, 427 00:30:57,860 --> 00:31:04,820 kind of used car salesmen on steroids, driving the, driving the marketing into a customer that doesn't 428 00:31:04,820 --> 00:31:10,200 necessarily, they're not sophisticated about the technology and there's no way to become sophisticated 429 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:15,260 about the technology, right? When you have an open source project, when you have a bunch of other 430 00:31:15,260 --> 00:31:21,660 people that are building on, on the same core, then it's not a mystery, right? It's not a mystery 431 00:31:21,660 --> 00:31:26,220 about what, whether this stuff's actually capable of. And I think that's a big thing. And then I also 432 00:31:26,220 --> 00:31:31,220 kind of want to dovetail off some of the stuff you just said and plug a talk that I have coming up in 433 00:31:31,220 --> 00:31:37,920 London at a conference called operability.io where what I want to talk about, and this is really sort 434 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:43,040 of the journey of configuration management and some of the, you know, things that I've seen and been 435 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,640 through, but there's, there's certainly things you can automate and, and this automation renaissance 436 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:54,520 that's sort of driven the last, uh, few years of this. But at the same time, the things that you're 437 00:31:54,520 --> 00:32:00,300 actually choosing to automate and the patterns that you're, that you're driving forward with have a, have a 438 00:32:00,300 --> 00:32:06,620 huge impact on that day two cost of operations. And, and while you can conceivably automate a bunch of 439 00:32:06,620 --> 00:32:13,140 that stuff, uh, it doesn't all, it's not all equally operable. And so I have a talk about what is 440 00:32:13,140 --> 00:32:19,380 operability and how does that, you know, how, how are the architectures at the application level interact with 441 00:32:19,380 --> 00:32:24,960 these lower level promises from a platform to give you something that is or isn't operable? 442 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,840 Yeah. Yeah. When, when is that operability.io conference? 443 00:32:30,540 --> 00:32:35,240 Oh, let me check. It's September 20 something. Let's see. Let's see what my talk is. 444 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:41,660 September 24th and 25th in London. And I have the first talk of the day on the 24th. 445 00:32:42,380 --> 00:32:45,840 Yeah. I mean, I mean, that's, that's, that's, that sounds like there's a little bit of crossover to 446 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:51,760 the, uh, uh, the talk you gave way back when at, uh, what was it? Configuration management camp. 447 00:32:51,940 --> 00:32:54,640 It was, it was, uh, it was some similar ideas there. 448 00:32:55,160 --> 00:33:00,680 Yeah. So configuration management camp, I talked about Bosch, which, you know, going back to the, 449 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:05,600 the, the three layer cloud native cake that you, that you cooked up a moment ago, that's sort of the 450 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:11,080 bottom layer. We're here. I'm, I'm probably going to spend a lot more time talking about the top 451 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:17,260 and, and the architectures of the actual applications and the, the implications of choosing. 452 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:25,040 It kind of goes to, when you think about the, the goal of having something that the meantime to 453 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:31,920 recover is driven to towards zero, right? If you can get to something that you can recover 454 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:39,820 instantaneously, then by definition, you're never down. Right. And so these, these patterns of 455 00:33:39,820 --> 00:33:44,820 architecture and load balancing and, you know, single points of failure and just thinking about 456 00:33:44,820 --> 00:33:49,400 how all that stuff fits together in a way that the people can make sense of, I think is sort of this 457 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:56,300 emerging architectural discussion that's, uh, in some ways it's really been missing. Um, and, and part 458 00:33:56,300 --> 00:34:02,780 of that is because not, not a lot of people have, have had the experiences that kind of drive you to 459 00:34:02,780 --> 00:34:09,380 where this stuff makes sense, right? If you've never been through the pain of actually growing, uh, uh, 460 00:34:09,380 --> 00:34:14,600 rapidly scaling service, then some of this stuff doesn't seem to be a big deal. You're like, well, 461 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:19,900 why don't I just do this thing? They seem in the small, uh, they, where you, where you don't really 462 00:34:19,900 --> 00:34:24,740 have to scale and you don't really have to move fast. Then, then things seem like they're roughly 463 00:34:24,740 --> 00:34:31,100 equivalent, right? From a kind of a autumn automation and operability perspective. And, and it's really 464 00:34:31,100 --> 00:34:36,160 only under, under the load and the, and the speed and the rest of these other things that come into 465 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:42,280 play when you're quote unquote succeeding that, that a lot of this stuff starts to be a differentiating 466 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:47,120 factor. And so I'm just trying to kind of collect some, some thoughts and crystallize those and, 467 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:52,000 and provide, uh, I don't know, just a little bit of clarity. I feel like there's this missing 468 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:56,540 operability is trying to, to, to kind of fill a little bit of this, but there's this 469 00:34:56,540 --> 00:35:02,060 architectural discussion that's happening that's sort of focused on these abstractions of code. 470 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:06,520 And then there's the system architectural discussion. This, this actually kind of missing 471 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:11,820 from the, from the industry that I would love, I would love to see someone fill that out. And 472 00:35:11,820 --> 00:35:15,460 I mean, maybe we should, maybe we should just organize that conference. 473 00:35:15,740 --> 00:35:20,940 Yeah, no. And, and, and as you were, uh, as you were pointing out earlier, right, there's, um, 474 00:35:21,300 --> 00:35:29,880 uh, it's, it's, it's, it's hard to find a lot of examples of sort of everything in the cloud native 475 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:36,540 stack. Like, like, like at the moment, you know, there's lots of conversation that's highly optimized 476 00:35:36,540 --> 00:35:42,580 on each layer. And there's lots of people worried about like container orchestration or containers or 477 00:35:42,580 --> 00:35:48,280 strict infrastructure automation. But, you know, other, other than ourselves, there's not that many 478 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:55,680 people who sort of like have a studyable, uh, open example of doing everything. Right. And so it's, 479 00:35:55,740 --> 00:36:01,100 it starts to, it's hard to emphasize that people should pay attention to the big picture when not 480 00:36:01,100 --> 00:36:06,640 everyone is sort of like producing the big picture, but it, uh, I mean, even, even if you're not going 481 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:11,980 to, yeah, even if you're not going to have like this fully integrated, um, thing. And, and I know, 482 00:36:11,980 --> 00:36:15,920 you know, lots of, lots of people, lots of places that have built deployment pipelines, 483 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:21,020 they build their continuous delivery, you know, microservice deployment pipelines, even if you're 484 00:36:21,020 --> 00:36:25,520 not going to have like, everything is like this fully integrated vision that the cloud 485 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:30,040 foundry, uh, and Pivotal are giving you right now, there's, there's a ton of value in just 486 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:35,600 like studying these patterns, um, uh, of success and failure and, you know, failure characteristics 487 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:42,440 have a, have a huge impact on your operational capacity. And so being able to, to plug that 488 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:47,060 in versus, I mean, one of the things that I see emerging in kind of the DevOps narrative 489 00:36:47,060 --> 00:36:51,280 or whatever you want to call this sort of cloud native journey is moving from a mindset 490 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:57,540 where we're trying to minimize incidents to a mindset where we're trying to minimize the 491 00:36:57,540 --> 00:37:02,900 time to recover. If you can get your time to recover to zero, then by definition, you never 492 00:37:02,900 --> 00:37:08,280 have an incident where if you have, uh, and typically the way this, this gets implemented 493 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:14,320 is a bunch of, uh, signatures to do change, change control, uh, that tends to lead to very 494 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:21,200 brittle systems that, that maybe they don't fail quote unquote as often, but they tend to 495 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:26,080 fail catastrophically. And that's why you see things like the chaos monkey, right? Like, 496 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:33,080 I mean, going back to things people don't believe, believe, believe the code is there. 497 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:39,440 Netflix literally destroys parts of its infrastructure as part of their day-to-day 498 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:46,520 practice. They inject failure into the, into the application, into the infrastructure so that they 499 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:51,440 can be certain how that stuff will behave, how that stuff will perform. And there's a bunch of 500 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,940 patterns that come into that, that dovetail into what I've already been talking about, 501 00:37:54,940 --> 00:38:01,120 right? Like the way that these things are architecture, they can realistically lose a 502 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:06,260 third of their capacity, uh, uh, you know, along specific failure domains and, and never miss 503 00:38:06,260 --> 00:38:11,800 a request and never stop, uh, serving your, your, um, business. And I think that's a big change 504 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:17,640 for people. Yeah, it's, it's a nice, uh, what do we have? We have a project called the, uh, 505 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:23,500 chaos lemur, if I remember that, that, that helps out with that, which is a equally funny name, 506 00:38:23,500 --> 00:38:28,580 but it is, uh, no, that's a perfect example of things that people think are like made up 507 00:38:28,580 --> 00:38:34,300 hokum that people talk about. But at the end of the day, it's sort of like, uh, you know, 508 00:38:34,500 --> 00:38:38,380 it's a, it's the ultimate test. It's, it's a good, it's a good safety test to have. It's 509 00:38:38,380 --> 00:38:40,840 like doing fire drills and all those other sorts of things. 510 00:38:41,060 --> 00:38:44,460 I, it's sort of those, those, one of those things where once you've been initiated, once 511 00:38:44,460 --> 00:38:48,320 you've kind of gone through the veil and come out the other side, like you never want to 512 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:53,640 go back. Once you've sort of been in a, in through that transition where you learn how 513 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:57,380 test driven development works and you, and you start to do it and then you understand 514 00:38:57,380 --> 00:39:02,380 the level of confidence that that gives you, then you never want to go back to not having 515 00:39:02,380 --> 00:39:07,320 that. And it's the same sort of thing with a bunch of these other, other practices, a 516 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,780 bunch of these other tools, a bunch of these other architectures. Like why, why would I go 517 00:39:10,780 --> 00:39:15,940 back to this thing that like inflicts pain and fire on me on a regular basis when I could 518 00:39:15,940 --> 00:39:20,080 just do this other thing that, you know, on face might seem, uh, you know, a little bit 519 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:24,760 more work or whatever in the, in the, in the beginning, but the, the long-term operational 520 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:28,520 costs, the day two forward costs are, are considerably lower. 521 00:39:30,100 --> 00:39:34,460 Well, I think that's a pretty good place to wrap up. And, uh, it's, it sounds like, let 522 00:39:34,460 --> 00:39:39,440 me see if I'm setting this up correctly. It sounds like you're, you will soon deliver the 523 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:45,080 second part of sort of like Andrew's, uh, cloud musings. The first one was sort of like 524 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:49,540 at the Bosch level, sort of configuration management camp. Right. And then, and then 525 00:39:49,540 --> 00:39:53,620 you'll move up to the upper layers of speaking about like frameworks and things like that 526 00:39:53,620 --> 00:39:58,740 at operability. And then eventually we'll get to that other layer and then we'll have 527 00:39:58,740 --> 00:40:00,240 a, uh, a little chat book. 528 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:06,520 I mean, I'm just, I'm just fortunate to, to be in a position to, to watch a bunch of these 529 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:12,380 things happen. And, you know, as a consequence of, of circumstances of my career, like I basically 530 00:40:12,380 --> 00:40:18,360 got a front row seat to watch, uh, the velocity crowd build the big web. And that's been going 531 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:24,420 on for a while. And, and now we're just sort of emerging and taking, I feel like Pivotal's 532 00:40:24,420 --> 00:40:29,840 mission right now is really taking all those patterns that were successful, building those 533 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:35,520 kinds of infrastructures, those kinds of applications and packaging it in a way that it can be consumed 534 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:40,340 by, by anyone who wants to consume it. And that's, uh, that's pretty exciting. 535 00:40:40,780 --> 00:40:46,100 Yeah. No, it's, it's, it's, it's always, uh, fun to be working on a stack of opinions that 536 00:40:46,100 --> 00:40:50,060 are useful that, you know, I, I, it always reminds me of the Thomas, the tank engine thing. 537 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:51,660 You just want to be a useful engine. 538 00:40:52,380 --> 00:40:57,380 No, I'm, I'm also been known for causing some confusion and delay, but that's a... 539 00:40:57,380 --> 00:40:58,480 Oh, you don't want to do that. 540 00:40:58,660 --> 00:40:59,560 That's another topic. 541 00:41:00,460 --> 00:41:04,540 Confusion and delay, the worst offense on the Island of Sodor. 542 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:06,040 Exactly. 543 00:41:06,700 --> 00:41:11,440 All right. Well, with that, this has been another, uh, Pivotal conversation. You can go, well, 544 00:41:11,460 --> 00:41:14,900 I'll put a bunch, some links into the relevant things in the show notes, which you can find 545 00:41:14,900 --> 00:41:20,340 at pivotal.io slash podcast. And as I'm fond of, fond of saying, if you like the plural, plural, 546 00:41:20,540 --> 00:41:25,240 you can put podcasts in there. Either one will work and we'll see everyone next time. 547 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:26,340 Till next time.