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I'm coming at you from the Walt Mali house in Universal Studios.

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In Orlando.

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In Orlando.

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And we're here with the Microsoft TechEd.

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Microsoft TechEd 2007.

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There is a war happening.

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What is that war?

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The war is between IBM and Microsoft.

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How so? On what fronts?

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All the fronts.

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All of them?

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At the moment it's a land war in Asia.

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Microsoft should not be fighting that fight.

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So, do you have the American Gundon ball again?

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Americans always get involved.

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Hold on.

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But officially.

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How do we put your post pro hard?

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I don't know. Are the Americans involved?

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So, what did you think of the SOA stuff over here all day?

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Because it seemed like the first time that we played a big way for Microsoft to say yes.

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Microsoft said the SOA word.

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That's right, the S word.

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The S word.

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I thought it was good.

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I think Microsoft said the SOA word, which is a start.

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Now they just need a story instead of can't wait.

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Right, right.

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And what was the character of that?

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Well, it began really good.

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It began by saying, "Gross roots.

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It's about developers.

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It's not top down.

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It's not modeling."

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But then, John Pereira, the GM, began to get a little bit more CDBP, I guess.

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Was it a CDBP or a GM?

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I forget.

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CDBP.

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Then he started getting prickly and he wanted to say that everybody else sucked.

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And that's when it wasn't so good.

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It was all modeling this.

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We went back to trench war.

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We went back to trench war.

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Right.

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Whereas, the best of the issue is being simple about developers, not like that big bullshit

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that IBM is trying to sell.

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Right, right.

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Not that IBM is only selling bullshit, but that's what Microsoft should say.

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Now, you are at the -- I guess we're getting into IBM territory -- but you are at the IBM

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SOA impact conference.

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So, what is that customer market?

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It's all about the big top-down.

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And do you think Microsoft is going to go after that or are they going to stay in their

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kind of mid to lower enterprise and every now and then a big enterprise or anything?

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Because that's always my question with Microsoft is can they jump out of their sort of desktop

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and the kind of like the realms they need to be placed in whether they want you or not

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in that area?

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Well, I think that that segmentation is possibly a false segmentation.

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It's not about like --

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I like it.

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-- a small business, a medium business, and a large business.

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Sure, sure.

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It's really about just entry points.

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Well, I would tell you I was -- I had always thought of an energizer as a large business.

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So, it's kind of interesting to hear this characterize their IT department needs as a small

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job.

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Yes.

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Because you would think, you know, the energizer bunny and the razor piece and all that.

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That would be like, you know, Colgate-Palmolive scale.

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Absolutely.

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But I guess not.

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So, when IBM bought Informix and they did their initial customer segmentation,

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Sears was considered a medium-sized business.

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Ah, that's right.

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And so, when our friends at Sears Robot are a medium-sized business.

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Right.

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He questions what's big and what's small and --

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Yeah, yeah.

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So, you know, it's like today.

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They said, "Oh, yeah.

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We've missed British stockings or the UK, the London Stock Exchange."

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Right.

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Microsoft end-to-end.

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That's not actually true.

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They're on tandem.

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Some of the data is provided by Microsoft.

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That is true.

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Well, as we found out with the Virgin Megasport, there's always an AS400 program.

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There always is an AS400 somewhere in the shop.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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That goes without saying.

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Absolutely.

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So, yeah, I mean, it seems to me they've got lots of cool stuff.

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They just now need to say cool things about the cool stuff.

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And what do you think the coolest thing they can say would be?

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Uh, keep it simple.

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Make it simple, not complex.

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Don't be afraid of word service.

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Right, right, right.

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But don't make it a service play like IBM.

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Now, I've got to admit that I was flagging a little quarter of the day.

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Because I hadn't had much sleep in a long day.

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And so I thought I was going to be really excited when we got to the service part.

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Yes.

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Not SOA service.

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But service.

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Software, the service, or whatever.

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But then everybody was on AS400.

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But then I don't know if I was the person who just instantly turned off before the contest.

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But I'm curious what you thought.

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Oh, I thought that was the best session.

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Oh, yeah.

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And Markovic, I think A, he seemed the most engaged presenter of the day.

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So that was cool.

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That's cool.

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And then they also came up with this incredible, fucked out of the ass statistic that within

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10 years, if possible, we will have...

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Yeah.

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That was, uh, that was, uh, that was duty.

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Yeah.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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That was good.

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That was actually good technique.

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The idea was that within 10 years, it's possible to be 30% of Microsoft Exchange business will

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be hosted by Microsoft.

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Wow.

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So they can all run everything.

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So I think it's bye-bye EDS.

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Bye-bye all the other providers.

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Right, right.

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And hello DOJ.

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Now, you know, that's the thing I've written about several times.

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Uh-huh.

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It always troubles me about the elder companies getting into the service world.

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Basically, how are they going to, like, either A, be comfortable with eviscerating

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all their partners, or somehow transition their partners into that world, right?

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Because the whole idea, well, the trick is don't worry about partners.

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Ah, so it's option A.

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Yeah.

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The question is how big is the revenue stream?

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Right, right.

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If the revenue is big enough, then it's time to shoot your partner.

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Yeah, you like that.

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So what got me was the audience was very bold this morning.

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That's true.

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I don't know if it's the IT pro audience, but it wasn't like...

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Sometimes you go to a Microsoft conference and everything, it's like,

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"We're going to resize this window automatically."

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Yeah, that's all right!

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Well, you know what they did the show?

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Was it either ECM in Boston last year or one of the MMSs?

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Probably both.

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Where they would basically show them using PowerShell.

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You know, like, "I've just configured 20 Exchange servers in, like, one line."

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That would have been cool!

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And then the crowd, like, goes wild.

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They would have shit themselves if they had done that to them.

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They had one segment where they had a little bit of PowerShell.

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PowerShell is what they should be showing.

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They should have just started today and said, "This is PowerShell."

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Right.

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They just impressed the shit out of everybody.

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They kept saying, "Here's this demo.

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Under the covers is PowerShell."

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Right, right.

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"Well, then show us what's under the friggin' covers."

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That's true.

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You know, I kind of think that a lot stronger messaging along PowerShell,

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and I really like the modern stuff they have.

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Yep.

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I think combining those two together in a very, like, focused outward messaging thing would...

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If Microsoft does that, the crowd would get excited.

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I mean, 'cause even 10 videos in 720p or whatever, it's, you know, whatever.

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But it's not even when they come on, Lauren.

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They're beginning to get it.

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Yeah.

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It's like, we're gonna talk about virtualization and management.

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Here's a command line.

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We're gonna configure a server.

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Right.

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Windows server core.

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Right.

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That stuff is good.

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Now, I wonder if Silverlight has PowerShell.

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I mean, it probably does, right?

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Because everything has a little CLR bind.

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You can PowerShell just such as whatever CLR stuff.

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But there again, what the fuck would you do with Silverlight and PowerShell?

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That's a great question.

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Well, you know, I was sitting on, when we were coming back,

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and when they announced...

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No, this was JavaFX.

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We were coming back from Java 1.

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It was this Enterprise Architect.

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He was very excited about JavaX.

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Not a characteristic of himself for just, you know,

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that Warby Enterprise guy.

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Yep.

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And he actually had a good point.

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He was an architect.

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He was like, I write all these rules to run our, you know,

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behind the firewall stuff.

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And I'm excited that there might be a UI technology.

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But it doesn't suck.

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So I can just have an easy-to-do UI thing on top of these utilities.

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And that, to me, was like, you know...

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I mean, you know my big thing is all this RIA stuff.

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Like, I'm always freaked out that they're working with that whole player.

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They're cooking the web?

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Forking.

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Forking the web!

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Okay.

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It must be my American accent.

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Must be that.

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But then I realized, really, they just make it a nice desktop.

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And that's how I calm myself down.

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Which might be a little self-deception.

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But that guy here, I'm driving home.

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So, maybe that is how you get the PowerShell's crowd excited about silver.

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And, in fact, that brings in Adobe because, of course,

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the customers that we saw doing stuff with Apollo,

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some of them were system management.

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Like, uh...

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So, EMC and eBay.

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Yeah.

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eBay has some pretty cool management stuff, front-ended with Apollo.

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What else?

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What else is there to say about, uh...

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Well, we had virtualization.

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We did have virtualization.

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We did have virtualization.

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Now, the, uh...

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I've been saving this question part of all.

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We have one-on-one.

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But there's...

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The thing that I'm kind of interested in is essentially...

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I mean, you know, as we've been labeled before,

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we're sort of all those sorts of standard things, right?

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So, I feel that virtualization really just needs to be standardized.

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Like, all this...

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VMware's and error virtualization or any crap like this...

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Right?

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So, I'm concerned with, like, let's just freaking standardized.

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I'm sorry, how do we do that?

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There you go.

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That's the question.

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We've got, uh...

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We've got Jason Adams now.

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We've got some...

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We've got some interop stuff going here.

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Right?

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So...

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And then we've got the whole, uh...

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Yes, we work with VMware.

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We'll fully post an image and convert it to our Meridian.

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Well, I believe they call that the embrace.

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Right, right.

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And so...

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My question is...

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When we deliver Meridian, we can extend...

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Exactly.

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So, you know, the idea here is, uh...

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You know, not getting quite set up again.

265
00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:34,000
But, like, how...

266
00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,000
I think VMware might be like these cigars.

267
00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,000
I think VMware might prove to be a lot like these cigars.

268
00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,000
They will not be extinguished quite as easily as you might expect.

269
00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:43,000
Yeah, yeah.

270
00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:45,000
You know, I was sent to be a brand this day.

271
00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:46,000
And they're, uh...

272
00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:48,000
They have a little bit of danger in part of them.

273
00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:50,000
There's two things I think they have danger in part of them.

274
00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,000
One, they're about to go public.

275
00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:53,000
Which is always a dangerous time.

276
00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:54,000
That is?

277
00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:55,000
You might leave, right?

278
00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:56,000
Or you might just get lazy.

279
00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:57,000
And I'll get lazy.

280
00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:58,000
It's true.

281
00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:03,000
And also, they have a grand big variety of, like, total everything.

282
00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,000
Which is sort of like, you know, when I go up to Thanksgiving and I see that buffet and

283
00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,000
there's a big turkey there, I want to eat the whole turkey.

284
00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:09,000
You want to eat the whole turkey?

285
00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:10,000
I understand.

286
00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:11,000
But you can't do that.

287
00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:12,000
No, you can't.

288
00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:13,000
Because you're just going to be sick and you've had all this bourbon.

289
00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:14,000
Yeah.

290
00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:15,000
It's not going to be a good thing.

291
00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:16,000
No, no.

292
00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,000
So, I mean, that's the thing I see with VM.

293
00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:19,000
I think they...

294
00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,000
They've got a big piece of meat on them.

295
00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,000
And we'll see what they can do.

296
00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:24,000
I mean...

297
00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:25,000
Are they booking the web?

298
00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,000
I don't think they have anything to do with the web.

299
00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:28,000
Okay.

300
00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:29,000
Okay.

301
00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:30,000
Okay.

302
00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:31,000
Now I get it.

303
00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:32,000
Yeah, I agree.

304
00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:36,000
I mean, they are so ambitious that you almost think they won't pull it off.

305
00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:37,000
But, I mean, I don't know.

306
00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:38,000
Very good.

307
00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:39,000
They also are successful in that walking.

308
00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:40,000
People love that stuff.

309
00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:41,000
Maybe they will.

310
00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:42,000
People love that stuff.

311
00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:43,000
That is true.

312
00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:44,000
Anyway, I mean, back to the Viridian thing.

313
00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,000
I mean, I just kind of feel like we just need to standardize ourselves.

314
00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:48,000
Like our virtualization stuff.

315
00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:51,000
Just having like two, three different things running around.

316
00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,000
Well, that's why Microsoft said it's going to work with Zen to kill VMware.

317
00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:55,000
Then we'll only have two.

318
00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:56,000
But then we'll have Sun.

319
00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,000
Does Sun count?

320
00:09:58,000 --> 00:09:59,000
Islar and Ed?

321
00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:01,000
They're clever in their marketing.

322
00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:02,000
They call it...

323
00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:03,000
Containers.

324
00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:07,000
So, they're kind of spurting around the edge of what's going on there and what's happening.

325
00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,000
And, you know, they're taking them more gorillas, sort of.

326
00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:10,000
Right.

327
00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:11,000
But they're just off in the hills.

328
00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:12,000
From a capability standpoint.

329
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,000
I think that's a big point.

330
00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:15,000
Yeah.

331
00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:16,000
Absolutely.

332
00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,000
Because Linux definitely has a way to run.

333
00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,000
I think if they're Indiana stuff, it's in Shell.

334
00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:24,000
So, I guess we need to wrap up.

335
00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:25,000
We've been rambling.

336
00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:26,000
Well, we've had Neil film.

337
00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:27,000
Neil, what do you think?

338
00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:28,000
Neil?

339
00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:29,000
My arm's ache.

340
00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:30,000
I don't want to mischaracterize, in general, what you do.

341
00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:31,000
But I know that you're big into business IT alignment.

342
00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:32,000
That's exactly right.

343
00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:33,000
Exactly.

344
00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:34,000
And so, I'm actually pretty generally interested.

345
00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:35,000
It will never happen.

346
00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:50,000
What do you think about the business IT alignment stuff that we heard about today?

347
00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:54,000
Because I remember at MMS, if I remember some of your posts, you thought it could be a little

348
00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:55,000
bit more finessing of things.

349
00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:59,000
And so, do you think we've come somewhere since MMS?

350
00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:06,000
I think Microsoft is making the right noise, but it's when they move from the noise to

351
00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:07,000
the actual delivery.

352
00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:11,000
And so, what kind of milestones or sort of checks will you have to see if the…

353
00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,000
So, that's a good noise to signal ratio?

354
00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:14,000
Is that what you're saying?

355
00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:15,000
Yeah, exactly.

356
00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:16,000
Okay.

357
00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:20,000
So, how do you think we can track the signal as far as that coming out?

358
00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,000
Partly adoption.

359
00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:23,000
Right.

360
00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:27,000
Actually, Microsoft is talking to a different audience and the audience is listening.

361
00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:28,000
Right, right.

362
00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:32,000
So, the top-down SOA story, I agree, is a good one.

363
00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:37,000
The top-down SOA without… the bottom-up SOA without the top-down is just not going

364
00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:38,000
to work.

365
00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:39,000
Right, right, right.

366
00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,000
What do you think of SOA from the middle?

367
00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:43,000
Now, there's a novel question.

368
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,000
Yeah, that's a fucking good question.

369
00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:49,000
Well, we'll leave it at that.

370
00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:53,000
It is a good question.

371
00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:54,000
Yeah.

372
00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:55,000
SOA from the middle.

373
00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,000
So, what are you going to be hoping to see next year?

374
00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:58,000
Should we come to this event again?

375
00:11:58,000 --> 00:11:59,000
Yeah.

376
00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:00,000
We should come to this event again.

377
00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:04,000
And what I want to see is an integrated story.

378
00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:05,000
Oh, good.

379
00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:06,000
So, more than the integration on PowerPoint.

380
00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:17,000
But just sort of like a whole architecture story that you could say, like, here, if you

381
00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,000
want to do the Microsoft way of developing something, here it is.

382
00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:21,000
Yeah.

383
00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:22,000
Well, here comes the fruit.

384
00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:23,000
Here comes the fruit.

385
00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:24,000
Here comes the fruit.

386
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:25,000
Here comes the fruit.

387
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:26,000
Watch out.

388
00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:27,000
We're fruit.

389
00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:28,000
We're being attacked by fruit.

390
00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:29,000
And the cheese.

391
00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:30,000
How about yourself, James?

392
00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:31,000
What are you looking for next year?

393
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,000
I want a less integrated story.

394
00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,000
I'm into disintegration.

395
00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,000
I think that's what comes after integration.

396
00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:38,000
Integration sucks.

397
00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:39,000
Right.

398
00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,000
Aggravated or integrated aggravation.

399
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:42,000
That's not what I'm into.

400
00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,000
So, I want less integration of the story.

401
00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:46,000
I want more clue train.

402
00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:51,000
And I want to have to come because more parts of Microsoft are paying us money so that we

403
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,000
have to come because they're paying us money.

404
00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:54,000
Oh, that's a good wish list.

405
00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:55,000
Yeah.

406
00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:58,000
We'll see what happens if we get oranges, coal, or a good stocking stuffer.

407
00:12:58,000 --> 00:12:59,000
Thank you, guys.