1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,000
So here we are at EclipseCon in Santa Clara and there's also the parallel OSGI thing running.

2
00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:10,000
And would you like to introduce yourself?

3
00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:15,000
Yes, please. I'm Chris Larsson. I'm the CEO of a company called MakeWave.

4
00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:16,000
Right.

5
00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,000
Based in Gothenburg, Sweden.

6
00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:19,000
Right.

7
00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:22,000
And we are the maintainers of this Knopflerfish OSGI distribution,

8
00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:27,000
which is one of the three open source, or four nowadays with concierge.

9
00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:32,000
Right. So what does that mean exactly? Are you in a run time for OSGI things?

10
00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:39,000
Yeah, we are a run time and we make a full implementation of these OSGI specs.

11
00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:40,000
Right.

12
00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:44,000
So we have it all. It also has a build system, of course.

13
00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,000
We actually have a plug-in for Eclipse, too, for developers.

14
00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:52,000
And we made it very early, even before the Eclipse guys were up to speed on that.

15
00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:58,000
In this sort of OSGI run time world, is it common to be able to move between each?

16
00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:03,000
Does the run time you choose make a huge difference in the way you have to go about your daily coding life?

17
00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:07,000
If you're a user of OSGI, it shouldn't. Then you've made a mistake.

18
00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:15,000
And many of the customers we have, they say they don't add extra features which are only available in your framework.

19
00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:17,000
Sort of proprietary features.

20
00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:19,000
Yeah, sort of proprietary. And I think that applies to everybody.

21
00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:25,000
And for instance, I know the Spring guys, or the interface, or Spring source they call nowadays.

22
00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:33,000
In the Spring framework, they make sure that they test always on Eclipse, or Equinox, on Felix, and on OperaFish.

23
00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:42,000
Right. It's sort of analogous to the old J2EE idea, that if you package things in standard Java Enterprise formats, you could deploy it to different application servers.

24
00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:43,000
Exactly.

25
00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:44,000
Right.

26
00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:52,000
And I think one key thing with OSGI, OSGI is not an open source project where the spec is the code, basically.

27
00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:53,000
Right.

28
00:01:53,000 --> 00:02:00,000
And then we have a well-written specification with different implementations that really tries out the specification as well.

29
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:06,000
Which kind of extra adds an extra level and kind of makes OSGI a bit unique in the open source space.

30
00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:12,000
Right. And there's several commercial implementations of OSGI runtimes, right? Or are there only open source ones?

31
00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:16,000
There is. I think process still has their...

32
00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:17,000
Okay.

33
00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:23,000
Our implementation used to be proprietary, closed source, and then we open sourced it because we changed the business model.

34
00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:24,000
Sure, sure.

35
00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:28,000
And so do you guys just sell support around it and any subscriptions and things like that?

36
00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:33,000
Things like that. So we have support contracts, we have professional services, and we do training.

37
00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:35,000
So we're not unique in that kind.

38
00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:43,000
And so, I mean, it seems like, more than it seems like, it is the case that OSGI came from sort of like set-top boxes and embedded devices and mobile things.

39
00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:48,000
And nowadays, I mean, it's a huge part of EclipseCon that we get, it's on the server side, if you will.

40
00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:49,000
Exactly.

41
00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:53,000
And just more of a, more running on a computer rather than a mobile device.

42
00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:57,000
And I mean, how do you, I mean, you probably have some good ideas of how that sort of came about to be.

43
00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:03,000
I mean, how did it make, how did OSGI make a leap from running on mobile embedded things onto running on the server?

44
00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:12,000
Exactly how that happened, I'm not really sure, but the background is that we were, ten years ago, Ericsson started a project called eBox project.

45
00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:14,000
Uh-huh.

46
00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,000
And I wanted to put a residential gateway in each and everybody's home.

47
00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,000
And that residential gateway should connect all the devices.

48
00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:20,000
Yeah.

49
00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,000
And they should have a platform in which third parties could install software.

50
00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:27,000
And that, that software should be guaranteed to be, you should have integrity.

51
00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,000
It's like the computerized dream of a household.

52
00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:30,000
Exactly, right.

53
00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:31,000
A digital home or whatever it was called.

54
00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:32,000
Yeah.

55
00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:33,000
Yeah.

56
00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:35,000
It was really hyped around the, uh, $2,000.

57
00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:39,000
And, uh, for that purpose, they needed a software platform in this box.

58
00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:44,000
And, uh, we were assigned as a company, uh, to develop, uh, help Ericsson to develop this platform.

59
00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:45,000
Right.

60
00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,000
And that led to the work of the OSGI Alliance.

61
00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:54,000
So we've been very much involved in, in the first, uh, releases through R1, R2, et cetera, of the OSGI specs.

62
00:03:54,000 --> 00:04:01,000
And we had some, uh, some of the fundamentals designed there with integrity, bundles, et cetera.

63
00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:03,000
We were, we made them for a better device.

64
00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:08,000
And, as it turned out, those, those fundamental designs, they were missing in Java.

65
00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,000
We were clearly adding some benefits to the Java language in itself.

66
00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:17,000
And it, it has turned out that they are so useful also in the desktop environments and the server side environments.

67
00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:18,000
Yeah.

68
00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:22,000
And, but we didn't design, we didn't have a server side in mind when we designed this.

69
00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,000
It was, uh, I think we were lucky.

70
00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,000
We, we, we, we hit a, we hit a good spot in, in Java.

71
00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:33,000
Where there, obviously, was something missing where we added, uh, a very good value.

72
00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:36,000
What do you, what do you think those missing things are that, that OSGI brings?

73
00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,000
It's the, the dynamics of Java.

74
00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:43,000
That you can load and unload software, uh, on, on a running JVM.

75
00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:44,000
Right.

76
00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:49,000
You don't have to do this restart of the JVM to, to get a new model, module loaded or unloaded.

77
00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:50,000
Right.

78
00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,000
And also the concept of the service registry.

79
00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:57,000
I mean, we did a service registry before the term, uh, service oriented architecture were invented.

80
00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:01,000
So we, it, it, it was a kind of SOA, but within, within one, one, uh, VM.

81
00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:02,000
Right.

82
00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,000
I mean, that, that's, that's the, that's the analogy I use with people all the time.

83
00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,000
Is it, it, it's like an intra VM SOA that you're running.

84
00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:09,000
So, yeah.

85
00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:13,000
So what then happened was that, uh, well, the residential market didn't really take off.

86
00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:14,000
Right.

87
00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:15,000
As we all know.

88
00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,000
And the dot com burst and everything collapsed more or less.

89
00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:22,000
Uh, but the telematics industry picked it up.

90
00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:26,000
And they saw that in the car industry or in the, in, in the vehicles, it's a kind of similar environment.

91
00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:30,000
You have like one central unit and that, that is connected to numbers.

92
00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:31,000
Right.

93
00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:36,000
And, and, uh, so BMW launched, uh, project.

94
00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,000
I think they were the first to use OSGI and it's built, it's still under discussion.

95
00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,000
It's still used in several R and D products.

96
00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,000
We've done several R and D products in the telematics or automotive space.

97
00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:50,000
Uh, but they have very long lead times and they are a bit worried to step into new technology.

98
00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:51,000
Right.

99
00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,000
But I think eventually we will see OSGI like architectures in the vehicle.

100
00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,000
And, and, and sort of the, the user and customer base that you guys have.

101
00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:01,000
What do you find people are using Knoblerfish and OSGI for?

102
00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:02,000
Uh, lots of things.

103
00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:03,000
Just everything?

104
00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:04,000
Everything.

105
00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,000
That, that's the kind of interesting idea.

106
00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:07,000
Interesting thing for us.

107
00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:12,000
I think we, we come more out of the, um, uh, the embedded space.

108
00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:13,000
Yeah.

109
00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:14,000
Some kind of gateway inside a house.

110
00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,000
It can be some industrial equipment.

111
00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,000
It can be also telematics projects.

112
00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:23,000
But we're also getting now customers in the, in the server side space.

113
00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:30,000
And, uh, I mean, Equinox is a great platform, uh, but it's, it's kind of, has the IBM stamp on it.

114
00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:35,000
So we, we try to pick up the crowd that is not, that don't want to go in the IBM.

115
00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:36,000
Sure, sure.

116
00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,000
Like, it's like the phone industry you're talking about.

117
00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:39,000
There's a lot of political things.

118
00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:40,000
A lot of political things.

119
00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:42,000
So, uh, but it, but it's a tough competition.

120
00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:48,000
I mean, these days it's like, uh, the users say in the seventies, you don't get fired for, for buying from IBM.

121
00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:49,000
Right.

122
00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:53,000
Now it's like if you're a big IT company, you don't get fired for using Equinox.

123
00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:54,000
Nice.

124
00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,000
So it's, uh, it's, it's a tough competition.

125
00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:01,000
But on the other hand, I mean, they are, they are also marketing the technology for us.

126
00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:02,000
Uh-huh.

127
00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,000
So it's really two sides of this coin.

128
00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:08,000
It's a tough competition because they know it's IBM and all everything behind that.

129
00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:13,000
But at the same time, I mean, they are paving the way for OSGY and getting a lot of buzz about it.

130
00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:14,000
Yeah.

131
00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,000
Well, they're getting people excited about using it, right?

132
00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:17,000
Yeah, definitely.

133
00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:18,000
That's right.

134
00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:25,000
I think we're going to close the loop here as well because the, the residential market, I think that's about to resurrect actually.

135
00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:26,000
Yeah.

136
00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:30,000
Well, we are, we are kind of at the beginning of a cycle of, uh, people or want more devices.

137
00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:31,000
Exactly.

138
00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:33,000
Or, or not that they want them necessarily.

139
00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,000
I think people always want more devices.

140
00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,000
It's just that they, uh, they're continually disappointing.

141
00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:43,000
Like when you actually get a device, you know, they're kind of like a little creaky and like things don't exactly work.

142
00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:45,000
And so it's got to keep innovating.

143
00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,000
So it finally like just works and it's, you don't have to think about it too much.

144
00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:49,000
Sure.

145
00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:54,000
And, and hopefully we're at another uptick of a cycle where we're going to have another go at it, like just having devices.

146
00:07:54,000 --> 00:08:01,000
I've been thinking about what, what was the key factors why we didn't succeed like 10 years ago or eight, 10 years ago.

147
00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,000
And, uh, there was basically three factors.

148
00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:08,000
First of all, Java back then really sucked if you ran it on a device.

149
00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:09,000
Right.

150
00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,000
I mean, it was too big, too slow, very inefficient.

151
00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:15,000
Uh, you need lots of memory to run it, run on it.

152
00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:18,000
These days memory is not, uh, it's not costly with memory anymore.

153
00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:19,000
Yeah.

154
00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:20,000
That's interesting.

155
00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:26,000
I mean, I haven't thought of memory as like, it's, it's, everyone always talks about Moore's Law and CPUs and stuff like that, right?

156
00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:31,000
But when it comes to, to Java and even embedded things, it's kind of memory is like a pretty big blocker.

157
00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,000
And so, so, so it's cheap now.

158
00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:34,000
Yeah.

159
00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,000
I mean, it's been, I think that that has been the main blocker in telematics.

160
00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:37,000
Right.

161
00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,000
I mean, these guys, they, they don't count the megabytes, they still count in kilobytes.

162
00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:41,000
Right.

163
00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:42,000
Right.

164
00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:46,000
If they can, if they can send, save 10 cents by going down.

165
00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:47,000
Yeah.

166
00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,000
One lower chipset or whatever, they will do that.

167
00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:51,000
Right.

168
00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:52,000
Right.

169
00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:57,000
Then it was the, um, uh, the penetration of broadband.

170
00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:58,000
Right.

171
00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,000
10 years ago, very few people had broadband or even fiber.

172
00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:05,000
I mean, we, we used dial up connections in the first projects we did with rarex.

173
00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:06,000
Right.

174
00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:07,000
So that has really changed the things.

175
00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:12,000
Uh, you have also the, the price of, um, of the gateway itself.

176
00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,000
Back then they were quite costly.

177
00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:19,000
I heard from a Taiwanese manufacturers of gateways that the, the, the, the bill of material now

178
00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:20,000
is one sixth of the price.

179
00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:21,000
Really?

180
00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:22,000
In the year 2000.

181
00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:23,000
Wow.

182
00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:24,000
That is cheap.

183
00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:25,000
That is cheap.

184
00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:26,000
So, prices have really gone down.

185
00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:29,000
And I think that the price level was also too high initially.

186
00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:30,000
Yeah.

187
00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:31,000
For these kind of systems.

188
00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:32,000
Yeah.

189
00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,000
And also, as you, there's a fourth thing, a fourth thing.

190
00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:39,000
There's the, um, uh, the devices were, were trying to connect.

191
00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:40,000
I mean, they were wired back then.

192
00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:41,000
Yeah.

193
00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:42,000
Yeah.

194
00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:43,000
You didn't have wireless networks.

195
00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,000
Well, you had some around, but not to the degree we have now.

196
00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:46,000
Yeah.

197
00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:50,000
Low cost, low on, on, on, on energy consumption.

198
00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:51,000
It's easy.

199
00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:52,000
Anybody can just get your kit.

200
00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:53,000
You have the gateway.

201
00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:54,000
You have a number of devices.

202
00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:55,000
Just hook them up.

203
00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,000
You just place them and they will work seamlessly out of the box.

204
00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,000
I mean, that's the, we can finally have a refrigerator.

205
00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:02,000
Tell us when we need to buy milk.

206
00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:03,000
Exactly.

207
00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:04,000
This dream will finally come true.

208
00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:05,000
Exactly.

209
00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:10,000
I think that that market is also growing faster in Asia.

210
00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:11,000
Okay.

211
00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,000
We're actually doing quite a bit of business in Asia.

212
00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,000
And they look at this at a different angle.

213
00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:21,000
And I mean, they are very keen on devices and they love new gizmos, basically.

214
00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:22,000
Right, right.

215
00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:23,000
Well, thanks.

216
00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:25,000
Was there anything else you wanted to mention or talk about?

217
00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:26,000
Not really.

218
00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:27,000
All right.

219
00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:28,000
Well, great.

220
00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:29,000
Well, I appreciate you taking the time.

221
00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:29,000
You're welcome.