1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,000 How are things going here at Java 1 for you? 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:08,000 Things are going good. You know, this show, there's a lot of 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:12,000 different types of people. This is a very developer-oriented show, right? 4 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:16,000 And so, I wouldn't say that our target customer, 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:20,000 this is their kind of show necessarily, since we cater to more of an operational 6 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:24,000 audience. However, because we have this really sweet 7 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:28,000 plug-in development kit and the fact that our product is built on J2EE, 8 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:32,000 and we happen to have a really, really good management story for Java in general, 9 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:36,000 we're sort of, you know, it's a good spot for us. 10 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:40,000 But it's hard to beat the PlayStation 3 and the Blu-ray discs behind us. 11 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:44,000 You know, one of the things that I really like you guys have is the whole cigar thing. 12 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,000 Have you found people being interested in that? 13 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:52,000 Tons. Actually, you know, the reception of the cigar, which is kind of 14 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:56,000 a rather esoteric piece of our software, because it has no face. 15 00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:02,000 We have this really cool GUI and this kind of very user-oriented approach to doing management. 16 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:10,000 Cigar is the kernel of our product, and it's our way of beating the difficulty of having to manage 17 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:14,000 different operating systems and architectures using a single API. 18 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:18,000 And luckily, we found that a lot of people have adopted cigar on its own. 19 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:19,000 Yeah. 20 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:23,000 And used it, you know, for different projects, both Java and non-Java related. 21 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:24,000 Because you have it GPL. 22 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:25,000 Yeah, and it's GPL. 23 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:30,000 And in fact, one of the coolest things that happened recently, which I don't know if we had even mentioned, 24 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:39,000 we got a gentleman in Europe who signed up to build a JMX framework around cigar. 25 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:43,000 So that cigar -- you know, cigar for us runs inside the container. 26 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:47,000 So now you can run cigar and have it expose JMX objects directly. 27 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:48,000 Yeah, yeah. That's nice. 28 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:54,000 So in addition to the Java API that it already has, it now is kind of a JMX aware piece on its own. 29 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:59,000 And we hadn't done that only because we always run it inside of HQ, which is already JMX aware. 30 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,000 But yeah, so that's -- Doug's really excited about that. 31 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,000 We got, you know, this guy out in Europe. 32 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:05,000 I forget his name. 33 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:06,000 I think he's in Austria. 34 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:07,000 Right. 35 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:08,000 Really smart dude. 36 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:09,000 Writes great. 37 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:10,000 Relative to cigar. 38 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:16,000 Originally, when we picked the GPL, you know, the -- no exceptions based GPL V2, 39 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:22,000 it was partly motivated around our interest in having this very, very sophisticated piece of technology 40 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:27,000 that we have built and nurtured over many years and have, in fact, licensed to other people like MySQL. 41 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,000 Yeah, we owe him it. 42 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:30,000 Yeah. 43 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:31,000 So who else is distributing it then? 44 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:32,000 I mean, you mentioned MySQL. 45 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:36,000 MySQL is using it, and then MuleSource is using it, and JBoss is using it as part of the JBoss operations network. 46 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:37,000 Yeah. 47 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,000 You guys are kind of like the instrumenters for the open source company world. 48 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:40,000 That's right. 49 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:41,000 That's right. 50 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:45,000 So this week we've been talking to Simon Phipps, the chief open source officer at Sun, 51 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,000 and his take is that it's not about the license anymore. 52 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:48,000 Yep. 53 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:50,000 That if it's open source, that means co-creation. 54 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:51,000 True. 55 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:52,000 If it's not co-creation, it's not open source. 56 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:53,000 He's almost trying to redefine it. 57 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:58,000 It's about co-creation rather than some of the earlier approaches that we took saying, 58 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,000 oh, it's open source because the OSI says so. 59 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:01,000 Right. 60 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:05,000 So the co-creation thing, I mean, I'm not so sure about a rigid definition in the way he's put it, 61 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:09,000 but certainly it helps your credibility, and any time you see community activities, 62 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,000 you think actually that's something I want to associate with. 63 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:19,000 I know I've written about this in the past, but I think that this whole quest for the one true definition of open source 64 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:25,000 is about silliness and vendors in a competitive space saying, oh, you know, you can't sell software 65 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:28,000 and call yourself open source because you have to be a services owner. 66 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:29,000 That's bullshit. 67 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:30,000 Yeah, exactly. 68 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,000 Every possible story that you can think of, I've heard. 69 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:37,000 And, you know, we picked the GPL, and we're also the cash register of open source, 70 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:39,000 which I'm pretty proud of. 71 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:45,000 And, you know, it's -- well, in the cash register, I'll qualify it. 72 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:46,000 Yeah, I was going to say. 73 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,000 Yeah, it's one of you saying it's okay to make money. 74 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:49,000 I'll qualify it because -- 75 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,000 Well, because management's a great upsell for open source companies, right? 76 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:53,000 Absolutely. 77 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:58,000 So open source companies partner with us, license our technology, and are able to create monetizable, 78 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:05,000 scalable monetizable offerings, similar to what JBoss and MuleSource and many other folks have done. 79 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,000 Is it like the Wiley of open source, maybe? 80 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:14,000 You know, in part, I think there's -- you know, Wiley -- you mean Wiley now CA, of course. 81 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:15,000 Yeah. 82 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:20,000 There's a big part of what we do that has a lot of cross-similarities to Wiley. 83 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:21,000 There's a lot of other things. 84 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,000 Wiley's audience is different. 85 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:26,000 Interscope's a -- such a deep dive, a depth-oriented product. 86 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:27,000 Very, very deep implementation. 87 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:28,000 Yeah. 88 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:35,000 And we try to go as deep as we possibly can while appealing to the paranoia of the successful operations team. 89 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:36,000 Right. 90 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:41,000 A successful ops person is a paranoid ops person who is resistant to change. 91 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:42,000 Absolutely. 92 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:46,000 Is typically not keen on deploying random stuff, for lack of a better term. 93 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:51,000 And it's also looking for the -- you know, what can I blame here? 94 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,000 Like, my outage, like, what did I change? 95 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:54,000 How can I get home, right? 96 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:55,000 Exactly. 97 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:56,000 Exactly. 98 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:57,000 So -- 99 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:58,000 Hopefully, if you're drunk, you're on autopilot, right? 100 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:04,000 So, it's a different mentality than Wiley and the application visibility and the whole transaction instrumentation and all that kind of stuff. 101 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:11,000 I mean, from my perspective, the similarity would be -- I mean, they did a very, very good job of working with the application server vendors in the last wave. 102 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:12,000 Yep. 103 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:17,000 So, you know, absolutely nailing the relationship with BEA, absolutely nailing the relationship with IBM, moving forward like that. 104 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,000 And I think what you're doing is nailing the relationships with the open source players. 105 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:21,000 Right. 106 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:22,000 Yeah. 107 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:23,000 And it's a great opportunity. 108 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:32,000 And even through that, like, we get this effect today at the show that people that are aware of our product because of, you know, J Boss On or because of Mule HQ. 109 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,000 And they look at it, right? 110 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:39,000 And they see the same kind of graphs and, you know, maybe the skin's a little different and the coloring is a little different. 111 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:47,000 And, you know, these OEM partners of ours have been able to license and create additional capabilities on top of what we already have, which is great, right? 112 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:51,000 Because that means that, you know, they can go deep and specialize within a particular stack. 113 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,000 And are some of them bringing code back as well? 114 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:54,000 Absolutely. 115 00:05:54,000 --> 00:06:02,000 MySQL, in fact, has contributed a lot of very interesting code into Cigar and motivated us because their management solution is not -- 116 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:03,000 built on Java. 117 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,000 It's actually -- their agent is native. 118 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:11,000 They've contributed a lot of very interesting additional native capabilities around Cigar. 119 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:20,000 They've also asked us to take pieces of Cigar that were previously in the Java layer and actually push them down, like the process table query language stuff. 120 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:21,000 Right. 121 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,000 The thing that we used to fingerprint different products and applications. 122 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,000 That was actually coded at the Java layer. 123 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:36,000 And then because MySQL really, really wanted to use it and they didn't have -- you know, they weren't using the Java interface for it, we went back and essentially pushed that down into it. 124 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:42,000 Now, interestingly enough, I think Cigar belongs in the Java runtime personally, right? 125 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:43,000 Right. 126 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:44,000 I think we've talked about that. 127 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:45,000 We have. 128 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:46,000 We have. 129 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:50,000 And as far as how that process can take place, well, the first thing was for us to, you know, open source technology. 130 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,000 Yeah, open source code in the market will decide. 131 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:53,000 Exactly. 132 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:54,000 Exactly. 133 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:58,000 Yeah, actually when -- because I think we talked about that before they -- before they announced it. 134 00:06:58,000 --> 00:06:59,000 Yeah, before Java was even open source. 135 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:00,000 The GPL thing. 136 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:01,000 And it was nice. 137 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,000 That was one of the first things I thought when they said they were going to choose the GPL. 138 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,000 I was like, oh, well, what nice compatibility. 139 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:07,000 Yep. 140 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,000 And there's been JSR projects that have -- 141 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,000 Have you seen any action around Glassfish at all? 142 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:12,000 I haven't. 143 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,000 I mean, nobody's -- it's a little similar to Geronimo. 144 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:24,000 We haven't really gotten a lot of requests for some of these, you know, other app servers, other containers. 145 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:30,000 The majority of the interest that we hear, you know, JBoss remains very popular, of course, and we're big fans. 146 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:31,000 Right. 147 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,000 Also, you know, things like Spring. 148 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:37,000 We're doing actually some really cool stuff with Groovy and Grails. 149 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:38,000 Yeah, yeah. 150 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:40,000 For our future products. 151 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:44,000 And so, you know, there's a lot of innovation happening. 152 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,000 And that's great. 153 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:52,000 And I think the container wars -- I don't want to say that they're over, but it's kind of not as exciting to go and argue. 154 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:53,000 Right, right. 155 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:54,000 Yeah. 156 00:07:54,000 --> 00:08:02,000 And WASCE is popular, and they're getting a lot of embedding partners, people like Intaglio that are doing work on WASCE, et cetera. 157 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:03,000 Right, right. 158 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:09,000 And we can -- the problem we have with Geronimo is that there's no instrumentation, no manageability really baked into it. 159 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:10,000 Right. 160 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:11,000 And we've talked to IBM about it. 161 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:13,000 We've talked to the Geronimo team directly about it. 162 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:19,000 Everybody recognizes that it needs to be done, but no one's -- we're not going to do it, because we've got a company and a product to build. 163 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:20,000 So we might have to pay for that. 164 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:21,000 Yeah. 165 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:22,000 Maybe -- yeah. 166 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:35,000 And you look at web -- well, actually, and the great example there is JBoss, because JBoss, even in two -- JBoss 2, like one of the first, you know, real production usable versions of JBoss had, just tons of built-in JMX instrumentation. 167 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:36,000 Very aggressive about instrumentation. 168 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:37,000 Yeah. 169 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:38,000 Yeah. 170 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:39,000 And Mark Flurry wrote a book on the -- 171 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:40,000 It was almost too much. 172 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:41,000 Yeah. 173 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:42,000 It was almost like a science experiment. 174 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:43,000 You know, ridiculous instrumentation. 175 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:44,000 Yeah. 176 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:45,000 And that's actually really good. 177 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:55,000 And one of the things that -- on the inverse side, and this is one of the parts about open source that's a little difficult, is you have this community that's pushing a product very quickly, right? 178 00:08:55,000 --> 00:09:10,000 But then you have the enterprises that are consuming it that don't move nearly as quickly, that get kind of their feet caught on things like, oh, from version 3.2.5 to version 3.2.6, we changed the capitalization in all the M beans. 179 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,000 And so now, if you're consuming any of this data, it's broken. 180 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:14,000 Yeah, yeah.