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Hello everybody. Here we are at RSC 2009, the Rational Software Conference in, as always,

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a lovely Orlando, Florida. And I've got another guest here with myself. Would you like to

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introduce yourself?

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You bet. My identity was stolen not too long ago. I used to be Brad Pitt, but I'm not now.

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This is Grady Booch.

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We talked last year, I remember, in a finely wood-paneled room, if I recall correctly.

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I think it was, and now you've got this wonderful pea-green kind of thing back here.

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You know, you've probably come across this notion. I'm always trying to figure out where

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I picked this up or if I made it up, but the sort of, well, I'll just say the sort of atrocious

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design that you see in carpets and conference rooms and things. Somehow I have in my mind

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that they do that because it's easier to clean up and hide stains.

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I think that's true. It's sort of this, you know, early Gothic bordello look that you see

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in a number of places.

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You just sort of string together all the undesirable aesthetic movements.

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And you reach the common mediocrity, not unlike what we see in software some days,

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but let's not go there.

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That's right.

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Well, one thing we were talking about before we were recording was this sort of, I guess

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it's all sort of fun ideas to talk about. There's this sort of, I don't know,

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messed up balance between how cheap software is, and sort of like the scarcity that you

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have to actually pay for that software, or just like money. You have one resource that's

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constrained, and then you have this other resource that's potentially

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infinite in supply, if you can do it correctly. And I'm curious, you know, we sort of stopped

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ourselves so we could actually get it on tape, but I'm curious to hear what the thoughts there are.

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And I'm really sorry we didn't get that on tape because we solved every known problem.

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Well, that's what always happens here.

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I know, it's a shame. So the theme I've been developing for the executive session here was

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the notion of the tension between the presence of a software abundance, and yet the presence or in

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the face of economic scarcity. So reality is the, in technical terms, the global economy sucks.

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The common reaction in such circumstances, well actually, let me go back.

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This isn't the first time. And so the bad news is the economy sucks. The good news is, I guess,

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is that this too shall pass. I saw a report once that in, since 19, no, 1885, going way back then,

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the market has dropped greater than 40% in value nine times. So it's not like this is the first time.

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You even go back further, looking at what happened around that time, around 1870 something, you had the,

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there was a panic around that time, usually because of speculation of stocks and, and railroads.

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There was a panic before that due to problems with the gold standard and so on.

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So you can go back to a number of timeframes and realize there are periods of economic scarcity.

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But we're a little bit different now in the sense that we have this material software,

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which is very fungible. It's very adaptable, very, very flexible. And it's not like the normal

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resources that we were pulling out of the ground or creating from atoms. So the question for me then

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is how does one attend to economic scarcity in the face of potential software abundance? And the natural

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reaction, the classic reaction in the face of economic scarcity is that you retreat and panic and you

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slash things. So this is what's happened with GM, of course, that their only means of survival has been

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well, not bankruptcy, but looking at eliminating debt and reducing cost. And that's applicable if

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you view software development as a cost center. But if you view software development as a source of

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innovation and a source of the power of your business, then you want to have a completely

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different reaction, which is to say that no, in the face of economic scarcity, I'm going to attack

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with software because it's actually something that's very fungible, et cetera, et cetera,

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and gives me a resource that I can use to get an edge.

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It seems like essentially it's sort of cheap, if you will, than other sort of

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physical commodities. And cheap, at least in the long term, in the sense that

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it's not going to sort of increase in cost as you run out of it.

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Right, you can't run out of it. And in fact, that's an important element that there was this

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delightful presentation done at one of Tim O'Reilly's conferences recently, Ethan, can't think of the

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guy's name, in which he was pointing out that there is a surplus of cognitive skills. So I think he put

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it in his presentation that if you look at Wikipedia, it represents probably around 100 million

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cognitive hours. And in a yearly basis, we Americans watch about 200 billion hours of television.

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So there's a cognitive surplus out there. And software being primarily an element that comes

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from the cognition and the mental labor thereof, it says there's a surplus of things we can draw upon

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that don't, you know, increase the carbon footprint. We're living and that's not going to increase

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if we're writing software or watching TV. And we can tap into that as a means of a competitive advantage.

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Makes me sort of tangentially connect to one of the sort of reoccurring themes I've been coming across

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here at RSC this year.

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You don't mean rustic, do you? You mean, oh, RSC.

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Or risk or whatever it may be.

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That's what we call it.

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But it seems like with a lot of the, uh, the higher level reporting and analytical tools

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and the, uh, I'm forgetting what it stands for with the MCIF framework and, and sort of the,

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I don't know, I mean the further evolution of, of RUP principles into more higher level business

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things, if you will, it seems like a lot of, or at least what I'm seeing a lot of what seems to go

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on there is the idea of giving business people, if you will, as a software people would call them,

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like the ability to more closely interact with software and do something with software

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more directly than just sort of tell the crazy developers over there to deliver me an application.

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It seems like what Rational is thinking about nowadays is sort of, I don't know,

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it's, it's, it's sort of going up against that, that windmill or holy grail, if you will,

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of like finally having business IT alignment, where, uh, we'll finally have some business guy

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drag and dropping something and it'll just work out perfectly.

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I'm not sure exactly that's how I characterize where Rational is headed in that space.

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Right.

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Because it brings to mind what happened with the CODASIL committee back in the 60s with COBOL,

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because one of the things that Grace Marie Hopper and others in the CODASIL committee

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were pushing is this notion that the great thing about COBOL is now that business people

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could actually write down business rules and make it executable.

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So the same argument was done back then. And of course it didn't come to fruition because

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you simply change the level of abstraction and the problems of building executable things and

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abstracting and all this, you're just shifting the language it's in and it haven't really solved

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the root problem. And so I would characterize or reframe your problem a little bit differently to say that

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no, what's really happening is that it's not so much we're interested in business

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people programming per se, but rather it's a recognition that there are so many businesses

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that depend upon software as their lifeblood. And insofar as I can couple the evolution of

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that software to the business needs and a wonderful dance between the two, that's the holy grail that I wish to have.

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There's a delightful book whose authors escape me at the moment that characterize market leaders and

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they describe that there are one of three categories. There's the ones who really worry about efficiency and

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they put Dell in that category. There are ones who focus upon innovation and they put Apple and IBM in that.

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And there's a third category that Amazon is in that deals with customer intimacy. And the point they're

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making is that if you look at any one of those businesses, there's software is a thing that fuels

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them and makes them possible. And insofar as they can couple where they're trying to head with the

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business with the software itself, then that's the dance you want to have happen. And so if I were to

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reframe it, is that what Rational is trying to do? Sure. But we're not trying to do what the Cobalt folks do.

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So on a completely different topic, when I was walking away from the keynote, I overheard you,

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you know, I guess I used dropped a little bit in the hallway. And you were telling someone that you

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have, you know, there's a lot of demands on your time and travel and things like that. And there's

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all these different input sources. And I'm kind of generalizing the problem here, if you will. And,

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you know, I think everyone in quotes has this problem nowadays that there's too much stuff going on.

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And I think that the, the thing that, that sort of made me remember this overhearing this conversation

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was you had this, this funny thing you said that even telling people no takes too much time.

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It takes time, narrowing down. I mean, I'm curious for, for as busy as you laid out that you were,

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like what, what are some of the coping strategies that you're going through at the moment to sort

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of deal with these things? Well, no, even sure. Even though it takes time. Um, there are times

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where I have to just shut myself off from the world. I shut off my email, I shut off my phone,

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I shut off everything so I can be alone to think for some period of time. And so in that regard,

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I'll crawl into a cave metaphorically and not quite literally, but almost so. The other coping strategy

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I'll do is I do a bit of a triage. I asked the questions like, well, does this travel involve

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going near a beach, which puts it higher in the priority for me? Right. Uh, does this, that's facetious,

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but well, maybe not entirely, but, but I also look at is, is it, is it something that I can make a difference

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by physically showing up versus doing something else more creatively? And to that end, I've actually

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been doing quite a few things in second life in the last year or so. I've probably given 50, 60

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presentations in second life. And that's a means of extending my reach while reducing the cost of my

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time. And it's been absolutely wonderful because I can see more people in some ways by, by doing that.

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So that's made a big difference. So I guess I'd reframe that by saying one of the things I'll do is to

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really understand if they need to move my atoms or if I can just move my bits. Yeah. Well,

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I mean, it seems like you're spending a little bit more time upfront to actually evaluate if you're

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going to spend a lot of time by doing something, which I think most people go about something where

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they, they sort of want to clear out their inbox, if you will. Yeah. And so they end up over committing

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in the future to save a little bit of time in them. You also mentioned second life. And I'm curious,

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I mean, second life specifically, but it seems like there's been a lot more, uh, or I've seen a lot

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more emphasis on not only sort of like online meetings and stuff like that, but I don't know if

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it, I guess it's curious to me cause I'm not really into video conferencing stuff, but I've seen a lot

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of people doing more enthusiastically doing remote sort of meetings and things going down to second

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life. I mean, it's been a while since I've sort of caught up on what, how things have been going

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over in the second life. Yeah. But so, I mean, how, how has it been evolving over the past year or so?

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Wow. Tremendous, uh, strides in that regard. Um, as an example of how IBM's, uh, made a commitment

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in this case, we have a group called the Academy of Technology, which is the 3000 or so. I think that's

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the right number. Most senior technical people throughout the corporation. And last year was the first year

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we didn't do this, but we used to have a, an annual meeting where we'd physically get together. And due to

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costs, we said, we're not going to do that. So instead the Academy meeting was held in second

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life and it's not quite the same. And we have the new, you know, startup kinds of things,

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but the ability to still interact with people and have these water cooler conversations.

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If we cancel the meeting, we would have had nothing, but by doing it in second life,

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you get some degree of that value. Um, the other thing that's happened, I think it's,

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it's pretty profound is that IBM and Linden have worked together

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to allow us to take the, the server for second life and separate it from the public

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grid and put it behind the firewall. So we can now have a truly secure virtual experience.

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So you don't have your own second life.

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You can have your own second life.

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Some people have flippantly called it your third life.

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That's right.

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Your first and second life aren't good enough.

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Your corporate life or something.

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Exactly. And so by doing so, you built an air gap around everything there.

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And this is to some degree where the, uh, the same time three D folks have had that headed.

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So, you know, at the same time, I can, you know, bring up a chat window and say,

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Oh, you three or four people come join me. You can now click a button and say,

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come meet me in second life. And you come to this, this meeting room,

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which has little post-it notes and whiteboards and things around it.

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So it's just like being there, but at a third, uh, third dimension.

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Curious that despite the fact that we're doing a video here, I tend to be a pretty

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plain text oriented guy, a pretty, pretty text oriented guy.

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Sure.

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I do a lot of instant messaging and email and all this sort of stuff.

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And, and since obviously you do a lot of second life stuff.

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And then like I was saying, I see a lot of people interested in video conferencing.

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Sure.

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And I, and I wonder in doing all these things, like what, what do you feel like that extra visual

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dimension adds that something like whether you are IMing or IRCing or whatever,

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it doesn't quite have, doesn't quite have on its own.

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Both the general video and second life offer me, uh, some visual cues of body language.

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And especially if I am working with someone adept in second life,

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I can see where they're looking. I can see what their attention is.

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And I can pick up cues like I'm doing with you here in real life.

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The other great thing that second life offers to me that I don't get from video conferences

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is that it deals with serendipitous connection.

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Uh, last week I gave a presentation to 65 people in world to a group in DC.

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And I was in, where was I?

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Kansas city at the time.

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And I did the meeting and did the presentation.

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And it was very cool.

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Just like a real meeting, but I don't get from a video meeting is that it breaks up

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and people come gather around in small groups.

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So you have these spontaneously created groups that form that you can't get in a video presentation

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because you just don't have that kind of clustering.

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And the cool thing in second life is with the three-dimensional audio,

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I can pick up conversations at a distance and say,

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I'd like to walk over there and see what's happening.

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Ah, right.

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So you get some of the same kinds of things you can in real life without, you know,

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getting near enough to smell somebody, which is not always necessarily a downside.

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That's right.

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And we haven't perfected, maybe, maybe you guys in research are working on this,

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but we don't have the, the smell of thing, the peripheral smell device.

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Small trivia, David Harrell, who was the inventor behind state charts,

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was apparently working at one time on the notion of, of smell phenomes.

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Ah.

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So you could come up with the discrete units of smell and attach that to a website.

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Well, one thing I'd like to highlight is, is the notion of the master thing that I showed in

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the keynote as well.

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Yeah, yeah.

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That was very cool.

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But basically a universal translator kind of thing.

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And the fact that we've been able to given, I think we gave 10,000 copies to the army to use in Iraq.

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That's, that's pretty cool.

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You know, you have, you have 10,000 units running around there.

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So there's some certain confidence that it actually works, if you will.

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And, and the demo was, it was pretty funny.

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There was, there was a, a guy speaking Mandarin.

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He's obviously having a heart attack.

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I'm having a heart attack, but I'm going to spend the time punching this one.

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And then maybe I, I might've been over interpolate, but it seemed like the guy

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who was talking with us was actually speaking English as a second language.

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I mean, he had some sort of accent.

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He was, I think he was Swedish.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Which was kind of funny in itself.

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But I mean, I'm curious with these kinds of devices, because I'm, my assumption is they're

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somewhat expensive per unit.

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And, and, and I wonder what you, I mean, how, how long do you think it would be before they

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get to be sort of affordable devices?

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Like even, you know, sort of iPod, you know, affordable.

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Yeah.

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Great question.

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Because the cost of them is not the hardware.

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It's just pretty stock hardware, just the research behind it and the software.

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I mean, even IBM's via voice is largely a, a software intensive kind of application.

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And master is pretty much that as well, too.

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Yeah.

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Master has master for those you hadn't followed.

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It stands for multilingual speech translator.

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I think it is.

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And as it turns out, there's an open source framework to some degree behind it as well,

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too.

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That's, that's out there.

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Great.

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Well, I don't want to take up too much more of your time.

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So I appreciate you spending all this time.

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I'm happy to do so.

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Yeah.

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It was a pleasure to do so.